[TenTec] omni v short dits

Steve N4LQ n4lq at iglou.com
Sun Jul 25 15:08:10 EDT 2004 

I beg to differ! With affection of course.

That ratio concept didn't get started until recently when the JA's came out
with it on their internal rig keyers and tried to pass it off as weighting.
You can see this on the ICOM rigs. That's why everyone uses external keyers
with the IC-706 in QSK mode. The ratio adjustment won't correct the chicken
pecking dits! The ratio between dit and dah is NOT weight. The ratio is
supposed to be a 3 to 1, dash to dot at all times. That has always been the
standard. Anything other than that is strictly improvising.

Weighting however can be varied to compensate for speed and conditions.
Weighting will change the time gap between dit and dah in a character. Back
in the old days, we used an ohmmeter to adjust the weight by holding dits
and adjusting for half scale on the meter.

73
Steve N4LQ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Duane A Calvin" <ac5aa at juno.com>
To: <tentec at contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits


> That's only because the K1/K3 don't do weight properly.  Weight should be
> the ratio between the dit and dah length, not "on vs off" time in each
> element.
>
>         73,  Duane
>
>
> On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:49:16 -0400 "Steve N4LQ" <n4lq at iglou.com> writes:
> > This is really so simple and the K3 propaganda has folks confused.
> > Simply put. Some rigs chop dits. Your keyer makes a nice heavy dit
> > and the
> > rig shortens it.
> > There is a cure....Increase the weight of your keying.
> > You can do this with most any elcheapo MFJ keyer.
> > Idiot Press's K3 not only has a weight setting but what they call a
> > "keying
> > compensation" adjustment. They are blowing smoke about the "delay"
> > issue
> > just to make you think their keyer has something that others don't.
> > Here is proof to the doubters.
> > Listen to yourself on another receiver. Try changing the weight and
> > compensation and LISTEN. You will see that they do EXACTLY the same
> > thing to
> > your signal. They are duplicate controls.
> > The only difference is in the sidetone of the K3 keyer. The sidetone
> > will
> > follow the weight control but not the compensation setting.
> > People gobble up this compensation talk like it's the final cure for
> > their
> > QSK ills and rate the K3 very high while all along it has no
> > advantage to
> > other keyers and in fact, I found the timing of their "mode B" to
> > be
> > slightly different than a real Curtis chip and am able to key with
> > less
> > errors on the real thing. 73
> > Steve N4LQ
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Tommy" <aldermant at alltel.net>
> > To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 11:52 AM
> > Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> >
> >
> > > It must be Sunday because my brain cell just can not tell the
> > difference
> > > between increasing the key-on time and decreasing the key-off
> > time, and
> > > changing the weight ratio of a character.
> > >
> > > If you delay the key closure, you are not keying anything, so how
> > does
> > that
> > > increase something that has not started yet?
> > >
> > > If you delay the key closure to "decrease the keying-off  time",
> > how can
> > you
> > > decrease the off time of something that has not started?
> > >
> > > Maybe this is one of those things that are much harder to explain
> > the to
> > > actually do? The radio is not going to (obviously) start producing
> > RF
> > until
> > > the key is closed, so if your delaying the time before you close
> > the key,
> > > the radio is just sitting there staring at you, until you actually
> > close
> > the
> > > key.
> > >
> > > I think I need a beer. At least it's something to ponder for the
> > rest of
> > the
> > > day. Make that two beers!
> > >
> > > Tom - W4BQF
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Don Watters" <ve1bn at eastlink.ca>
> > > To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 9:45 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> > >
> > >
> > > > Steve -
> > > >
> > > > You asked   "How does the rig know it's "make" is being delayed
> > by a
> > > keyer?"
> > > >
> > > > It's the reverse,  the key closure is delayed to increase key-on
> > time,
> > or
> > > > decrease
> > > > keying-off time,  by the amount of mS you set to match the rig's
> > on
> > delay.
> > > > The
> > > > adjustment is independent of speed and is used to correct
> > keying
> > > distortion
> > > > of
> > > > various transceivers.
> > > >
> > > > You will note that ARRL tests of key closure versus signal
> > transmit
> > delay
> > > of
> > > > different rigs are shown.   I measured the mS needed to
> > compensate my
> > > > rigs from those test pix.  The Paragon II was "dead on" using
> > the
> > Paragon
> > > > (1)
> > > > test results.  Saved a lot of fussin".
> > > >
> > > > 73 -  Don   VE1BN at eastlinbk.ca
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Steve N4LQ" <n4lq at iglou.com>
> > > > To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 9:17 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes sir. I had a K3 Super Duper CMOS here for some time. I
> > sold it
> > > because
> > > > I
> > > > > didn't like the mode B emulation. Other than that, it's ok.
> > Listening
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > weight vs. "keying compensation" adjustment in another
> > receiver,  they
> > > > seem
> > > > > to do exactly the same thing which is to increase the length
> > of the
> > > > > characters. The only difference is that the "keying
> > compensation"
> > > doesn't
> > > > > affect the K3's racus sidetone.
> > > > > Now I have a question about one of your statements.
> > > > >
> > > > >  "Keying compensation allows the make to be delayed so that
> > the start
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > rig's
> > > > > > keying envelope matches the keyer.   The weight control is
> > different."
> > > > >
> > > > >  How does the rig know it's "make" is being delayed by a
> > keyer?
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, for some rigs, especially ICOMS, when used in QSK
> > mode, extra
> > > > weight
> > > > > is needed. When I use my MFJ 407 with the PROII in QSK mode, I
> > simply
> > > > crank
> > > > > up the weight control about 30%. In Semi-bkin mode, I turn it
> > back to
> > > > > normal. The sidetone in the PROII reflects this change and
> > sounds
> > rather
> > > > > heavy. When using the K3 keyer, you get the same exact effect
> > when
> > > > > increasing either the "weight" or "compensation". If you can
> > stand to
> > > > listen
> > > > > to the sick duck sidetone of the K3, the weight of the
> > sidetone is
> > > > preserved
> > > > > by increasing the "compensation" instead of the "weight". So
> > basically
> > > the
> > > > > "compensation" adjustment is a gimmick.
> > > > > Most TenTec rigs do not seem to require additional weight but
> > las Tom
> > > > > mentioned, the Omni 6+ does need a little help over about 45
> > WPM. The
> > > > Orion
> > > > > seems to be rather unpredictable in this reguard. Mine was
> > choppy at
> > > first
> > > > > then I upgraded the software and it sounded much better but my
> > QSK
> > > became
> > > > > slow. Maybe there's a relation!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve N4LQ
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Don Watters" <ve1bn at eastlink.ca>
> > > > > To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 7:45 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Whatever, Steve.  Please don't  take me for a fool.  Guess I
> > am just
> > a
> > > > > lucky
> > > > > > fellow
> > > > > > with a CMOS Superkeyer 3 which can compensate keying in
> > various
> > rigs.
> > > > > Ever
> > > > > >  try one?  Was a cmcl op, used a bug for 40 years from early
> > ham
> > days
> > > in
> > > > > > 1946
> > > > > > until I sold my little Zephyr 5 years ago. I've used the
> > CMOS for
> > the
> > > > past
> > > > > > 9.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Guess I'm a true blue CW op too!!     I know you don't
> > tighten the
> > > dits
> > > > up
> > > > > > on a bug
> > > > > > as close as suggested.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Keying compensation allows the make to be delayed so that
> > the start
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > rig's
> > > > > > keying envelope matches the keyer.   The weight control is
> > different.
> > > > It
> > > > > > shortens
> > > > > > the spacing of characters, sort of runs them together if too
> > much
> > > weight
> > > > > is
> > > > > > set.  Big
> > > > > > difference.  These are heard in the Ten-Tec sidetones.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Was just suggesting a possible solution, but forget it OM,
> > you
> > > > apparently
> > > > > > already
> > > > > > have the answers....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > By the way, no offence taken or meant.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 73 -  Don  VE1BN at eastlink.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gosh. just seems to do the job.      ----- Original Message
> > -----
> > > > > > From: "Steve N4LQ" <n4lq at iglou.com>
> > > > > > To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 8:06 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Keying compensation? Delay? Sounds like a line from the K3
> > manual.
> > I
> > > > > > suppose
> > > > > > > if he had a  keyer he could crank up the weight  but I'm
> > not sure
> > > the
> > > > > ole
> > > > > > > boy owns one. He's a true, blue cw op! Bug only! BTW: That
> > "keying
> > > > > > > compensation" is just another weight control. The only
> > difference
> > in
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > and a regular weight control on a Curtis keyer is the fact
> > that it
> > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > affect the sidetone (which few people use anyway).
> > > > > > > Steve N4LQ
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Don Watters" <ve1bn at eastlink.ca>
> > > > > > > To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 6:19 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi Steve -
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Any way he can set the keying compensation?   I found my
> > Paragon
> > > II
> > > > > > needed
> > > > > > > > about 15 mS delay to give a smooth keying
> > characteristic. No
> > > > shortened
> > > > > > > makes
> > > > > > > > or clicks.  Worth a try if he can set it up.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 73 -  Don,  VE1BN at eastlink.ca
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Steve N4LQ" <n4lq at iglou.com>
> > > > > > > > To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 6:30 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A friend of mine has an Omni V and he is trying to use a
> > bug
> > > however
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > dits are being chopped so badly that he can't use it.
> > I've never
> > > had
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > TenTec rig that chopped dits like this one. I've hear
> > him on the
> > > air
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > even with his dit weight screwed to almost touching, he
> > sounds
> > > > > horrible.
> > > > > > > > It's like something is wrong in the keying circuit. Has
> > anyone
> > > > > > experienced
> > > > > > > > this?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Steve N4LQ
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > TenTec mailing list
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> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > >
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> > > > > >
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>
> --------------------------------------
> Duane Calvin, AC5AA
> Austin, Texas
>
> http://home.austin.rr.com/ac5aa
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