[TenTec] SOFTWARE at WRTC

Sat Jul 26 07:17:11 EDT 2014

Drivers aren't software?  OK, I know what you meant, but technically, that
statement is not accurate.

So, of OmniRig is a set of software drivers for various radios...
And it supports the CAT interface for these radios to for multiple Amateur
Radio applications, not just WinTest...
And it doesn't currently support the Eagle...

You don't think this is a problem?  Or am I still misunderstanding
something?

Regarding band data... so all of a sudden, the OmniRig driver situation is
NOT the reason that contest clubs aren't interested in the Eagle?  

Fine.  This is getting nowhere.  I give up.  You win.  Nobody should contest
with the Eagle.

73, ron w3wn

-----Original Message-----
From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Rick -
DJ0IP / NJ0IP
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2014 2:59 AM
To: 'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'
Subject: Re: [TenTec] SOFTWARE at WRTC

Ron, Omnirig is not a software, it is a set of drivers for various radios.
Its author is a Canadian, on your side of the pond.

Lots of 3rd party contest software packages around the world rely on omnirig
for their CAT interface to the radio.
It's the most widely used CAT package going, but you never heard of it
because its buried within the programs.  Normally the user doesn't need to
be concerned with it.

In many of the common packages, full functionality with CW SKIMMER depends
on full omnirig support for the radio. 

Also, you draw one false conclusion.
Omnirig support is not "THE" reason the Eagle is not considered here by the
contest teams.
There are several other reasons - mostly ergonomics and lack of band data on
the rear panel.

So obtaining omnirig support isn't going to assure a place for the Eagle on
contest teams.
But it might improve sales to individual contesters.
After all, most of the participants operate alone, not in teams.

I haven't operated on a contest team since 2005 (except Field Day with K3LR
a couple times).
Operating alone, I'm fine with the Eagle, though I struggle with its
shortcomings in WIN-TEST.

73 - Rick, DJ0IP
(Nr. Frankfurt am Main)

-----Original Message-----
From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Notarius W3WN
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2014 4:54 AM
To: 'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'
Subject: Re: [TenTec] SOFTWARE at WRTC

Rick,

I'm going to confine my reply to the Win-Test part of the equation.  Suffice
to say that I have some very strong opinions on the level of "contesting"
you were discussing, and I don't want to stray off too far off topic.  

OK, I stand corrected that I should have referred to "OmniRig" not
"Win-Test".  My flub on that one, as I keep getting the two mixed up.

Keep in mind that "OmniRig" is not a piece of software that is well known on
this side of the pond.  Frankly, you're the only person I know of who
appears to be at all familiar with it.

Now, that aside...

What I see here is some circular reasoning.  If I follow this correctly...

The OmniRig authors have declined to update it for the Eagle.
The contest clubs have standardized on Win-Test, which means OmniRig.
The Eagle is not supported by OmniRig.
Therefore, the contest clubs won't even consider an Eagle until OmniRig is
updated... but the authors have declined to update it.

So what that means is, for all practical purposes, the OmniRig authors have
placed the Eagle "beyond the pale" for use by the contest clubs.

This further implies that ANY new radio that comes out, no matter how good
it is, can be placed out of reach by the software authors.

Getting back to the Eagle though... when one takes into further account
John's comments that the Eagle uses a subset of the Orion commands... and
the Orions are supported... one may wonder what the real issue is.  One may
be tempted to speculate about motives, but let's not go down that road.

This reminds me of comments I've heard from some DX'ers in the recent past.
A lot of people will tell me that the K3 MUST be a better rig than the
Orions, Omni VII's, or now the Eagles.  Why?  Because so many DXpeditions
use them.

Now you & I know that so many K3's are used by DXpeditions because Elecraft
loans them out... and Ten Tec in the recent past has not done so.  That
doesn't mean the rig is better, just that it's cheaper to borrow a rig than
to buy one.  

Still, so many people don't know about the details.  They just see that the
DXpeditions use K3's, therefore, they must be a better rig.  And in years
past, the same was said of ICOM rigs when ICOM had a similar loaner program.

So... are we facing a situation where some will say that the Eagle is not a
good contest rig, because so few contest clubs (if any) use it?  Even though
the reason is not due to any technical on-air issues with the Eagle, but
just the lack of a software driver?  I'd hate to hear that, but I suspect it
will be coming.

73, ron w3wn

-----Original Message-----
From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Rick -
DJ0IP / NJ0IP
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 5:44 PM
To: 'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'
Subject: Re: [TenTec] SOFTWARE at WRTC

SRI Ron, you are WAY OUT THERE!

First of all, the WIN-TEST authors didn't write their software for any rig.
They wrote an API for omnirig.
Omnirig gave them compatibility to a hundred radios.  (roughly) With one
single driver on their side, they automatically have access to a hundred
radios or more.

Unfortunately Omnirig doesn't support the Eagle.

Next,
< snip >

You have misunderstood the problem with the Eagle.
John Henry's proposal came today.
The omnirig problem is 3 years old and I have been fighting it to no avail.
The writers of Omnirig just don't want to be bothered to do a driver for the
Eagle.
They told me to write it myself or find someone to write it for me.
I tried and failed.

73 - Rick, DJ0IP
(Nr. Frankfurt am Main)

-----Original Message-----
From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Notarius W3WN
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 8:27 PM
To: tentec at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TenTec] SOFTWARE at WRTC

"Poor choice" on your part or mine? (Not trying to give you a hard time, I
just want to make sure I didn't misspeak)

That touch of kidding-around aside.

Of course, what is the "best" radio is a very subjective thing these days.
Size, shape, other ergonomics, manufacturer/brand loyalty, filter
selection... all are factors. The ideal radio for one event may be worth
bupkus in the next.

Speaking only for myself, I've tried a lot of rigs. (It helps that I have a
friend who also cycles through a lot of rigs, which is how I ended up with
that Omni VII, but I digress.) I haven't tried them all, and I certainly
don't claim to be an expert. Given the choice between a K3 and an Eagle, for
solo operating on my own, it would be the Eagle hands down. I just plain
like it better. 

Now if I had an Eagle (I wish, but with a Corsair II, Omni VI+, and Omni VII
in the shack these days. plus an old PM2B for QRP. there's no room for it,
and I don't need another rig collecting dust - I have a Swan 3Drifty for
THAT), and I was politely informed by a team contest crew that had invited
me that I wasn't to bring it. well, I'd probably go elsewhere. I don't think
one should rule out using one of (if not the) hottest receivers on the
market these days because someone else determines that one top-level rig is
that superior to another. Clearly others feel differently, and more power to
them. I just think if you're inviting ops, and inviting those who can to
bring their own gear, you need to both be flexible and try and accommodate
the best rigs you can get your hands on.

Yeah, that's also theoretical. I don't think I'll ever see an invitation
like that ever again, at least not for anything within driving distance.
With a daughter a year out from college, that's about as far as I can afford
to travel these days.

I get that sometimes the team players have to set aside personal preferences
on behalf of the team. But one should not do so blindly, nor do so in a way
that handicaps you. And one has to wonder if the team is truly looking out
for their own best interests, or if the team leader has their own agenda or
ulterior motive, that is being hidden behind the "team" concept. (I can
think of more than a few people who would just as soon prefer to still run a
M/S or M/M station on nothing but Drake C-Line with all the mods, to the
exclusion of anything else). Sometimes the worst thing you can do, for both
you and the team, is "take one for the team."

Now, WRT the software situation. OK, I understand that a developer only has
so much time. And I can understand that a given software team may hesitate
to constantly write new code for new radios. even so, new radios come on the
market somewhat frequently, and you can't always assume that they're
backward compatible with the older models they replaced. 

But if I recall correctly, you mentioned (or if not you, someone did) that
one of the problems that the Win-Test developers had with adapting their
software to the Eagle was that they didn't have access to one. Well, John
Henry has made the offer. From what he says, it should be an easy
implementation. (Heck, if I was using the software, I'd take him up on that
- free use of an Eagle for a few weeks while putting together an INI file?
Almost too good to pass up. but I don't use the software.) So, how do we
make the developers aware of this offer? And will they follow up with it, or
was that merely a convenient excuse?

Finally, no, I'm not really a sports car buff. I do like watching them run
at the Vintage Grand Prix though. My flag corner doubled this year for the
"patron charity rides" between practice/race sessions; they used three Mini
Coopers, and BMW sent an M4 from their drivers school in South Carolina,
along with one of the instructors. (Even gave us all at the corner a nifty
hat). Two things I got from watching him drive that M4 all weekend. (1) man!
Is he a fantastic driver, and (2) there is NO WAY you'd get me in a car with
that speeding lunatic. and I mean that in a good way.

73, ron w3wn

On 07/25/14, Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP wrote:

Ron, that was perhaps a poor choice of words.

I regularly get invited to one of our many teams.
I think that's because most of the guys remember the old Rick and don't
realize that I'm an old man now.
In all honesty, if I took them up on their offer, I would probably
disappoint them.

If I should decided to get back into team contesting, then I would want to
perform as best as I can and in order to do that, I need to become familiar
with the radio I would be using. Usually a K3 (now days). 

Of course I could keep my Eagle but there is no way they would ever allow an
Eagle on site at one of our team contesting stations. At least not at any of
the serious ones. Keep in mind, we have about 400 members in our club and
tens of contest stations.

So if my goal was to join a team again, YES, I would definitely choose my
second favorite radio in order to prepare myself for the Olympics.

That's all theoretical because I don't think I could deal with the stress of
a serious team effort any more. I prefer to contest on my own and sleep when
I want to, not when the schedule says I have to.

Or in other words, I would rather keep my Eagle than have to buy a K3 to
prepare for team contesting.

Ron, if I remember correctly, you are a sports car buff.
Back in the 60's the best formula one driver in the world (IMO) was Stirling
Moss.
He was never the world champion because he refused to drive any car that
wasn't British.
He could have gotten a seat in the Ferrari team, but he refused.
Thus he never made it.
The next driver to achieve that was Jimmy Clark, several years later.

Team players have to put their personal preferences aside and do what the
team demands.

73 - Rick, DJ0IP
(Nr. Frankfurt am Main)

-----Original Message-----
From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Notarius W3WN
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 5:29 PM
To: tentec at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TenTec] SOFTWARE at WRTC

So you would sacrifice (IMHO, having used both) the better of the two radios
for the sake of the team?

...granted, both are excellent rigs, so it may not be a HUGE sacrifice.
Still...

73, ron w3wn

On 07/25/14, Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP wrote:

I'm not sure what a "serious casual relationship" is.

I think you'll find most participants are also members of contest teams and
they tend to run what other team members run.
As such, this can potentially limit your selection of radios.

I use WIN-TEST because that's what my club chose.
The Eagle won't play right with WIN-TEST so I could never take it to a team
contesting site.

If I were still actively participating in Team Contesting, and could only
have one radio, I would sell the Eagle and buy a K3. The software DOES
affect your hardware choice if you are a team player.

73 - Rick, DJ0IP
(Nr. Frankfurt am Main)

-----Original Message-----
From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of K8JHR
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 4:37 PM
To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
Subject: Re: [TenTec] SOFTWARE at WRTC

I don't see a serious causal relationship here. I doubt anyone selected his
competition radio because it works with a particular logger ... 
instead, I expect they selected their favorite rig, and then selected a
logging program that works with it.

It would be a case of the tail wagging the dog to think otherwise.

--------------------- JHR -------------------------

On 7/25/2014 1:59 AM, Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP wrote:
> (John Henry, I hope you read this!)
> WINTEST: 40

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