[TenTec] THANK YOU AND APOLOGY

[n5bi]

Nice..Bill, you are a gracious person.  Thanks for the breath of fresh air.
Gary
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Billy Cox" <aa4nu at ix.netcom.com>
To: <k9yc at arrl.net>; "Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment" 
<tentec at contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2014 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [TenTec] THANK YOU AND APOLOGY


> Yo Jim,
>
> I think we all need to give each other
> a bit more grace? Especially on complex
> topics such as currently under review.
>
> We all makes mistakes, you made one this
> weekend with your post on the E brand
> forum as to saying that someone needed
> to be fired over a schematic? True?
>
> Yet a bit later, after some time of slowing
> down and studying the schematic, you found
> that you have made the errors in your reading
> of the data presented?
>
> Another person helped you with your questions
> and tried gently to suggest that your conclusion
> was not quite 100%. You noted such a bit later.
>
> James is on that forum, yet I don't recall
> him calling you out for it as you should
> have known better? Grace is good ...
>
> Sadly, it seems too many on here, have long
> forgotten what it was like when you and I
> were first getting started in this hobby?
>
> And that not everyone has or will be able to
> go to school on this topic. That's not a
> requirement, to be a open learner is.
>
> Nor do I think James considers himself an
> instant expert. Look at his background, it
> does tend to require a high level of facts.
>
> Some of my best students at the university
> level, by the end of the term, were the ones
> who struggled the most when the class started.
>
> Should I have treated them as you guys are
> doing to James? I would hope not. None of
> us, including me are perfect really.
>
> Folks learn in different ways, some have to
> "get it" via a way that may not be how you
> or I learn or present best. Grace is good ...
>
> James, as well as many others, have asked me
> questions too off the forum. Some I fear do
> that as they don't want to be jumped on by
> posts such as yours or similar recent comments
> on here by a couple of others.
>
> Let's help them learn please, but don't beat
> them down in the process.
>
> We ALL have bias about things, you do too as
> an engineer, and in other topics too. Below
> you are suggesting we should not value the
> data from the person because he is not a contester?
>
> One of the parties, who sadly has acted rather
> ugly from the posts of yesterday, has made
> repeated anti-contest postings, should we also
> discount anything he says? Grace is good ...
>
> One role of a teacher is to stay with the
> student, as long as they are making an effort
> to learn? James is doing his part.
>
> Shouldn't we strive to do our part? If he has
> something not quite correct, why not try and
> help rather than judge him as others are doing?
>
> By his professional training, he is trained
> to secure evidence and see if it supports, or
> if it does not support the statement.
>
> No evidence presented, the conclusion can be
> there is no truth. If I needed legal advice,
> that is exactly the background I would expect.
>
> How is that any different from every engineering
> team that I have been part of where the unspoken
> is always ... "Trust but verify"?
>
> He asked for the evidence. Interesting, and also
> very sad, to see how you and a couple others
> responded in that regard. That is how we end of with
> the dreaded "ham lore" of "Well, we all know that"
>
> I really believe James has read, and re-read every
> reference that others, including you have suggested.
>
> From the questions I get back from him after suggesting
> a reference, that tells me his does read and learn.
>
> Thanks for providing him in this post with some
> simple definitions of the terms that have been
> tossed about. Yes, It is a very complex topic.
>
> Even Rick made an error in his post on band pass
> filters this morning, but I  will let him re-read
> it first and make any needed correction.
>
> Thanks for the Q in the recent RTTY NAQP and hope to
> work you again in the August CW and SSB sessions.
>
> 73 de Billy, AA4NU
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Jim Brown <k9yc at audiosystemsgroup.com>
>>Sent: Jul 27, 2014 5:53 PM
>>To: tentec at contesting.com
>>Subject: Re: [TenTec] THANK YOU AND APOLOGY
>>
>>On 7/27/2014 12:54 AM, K8JHR wrote:
>>> I was encouraged by ARRL Lab expert Bob Allison,  who reviewed the
>>> same graphs and said,
>>>
>>>     "THEY HAVE NEARLY THE SAME COMPOSITE NOISE."
>>
>>Several points. Mr. Allison is probably not a contester. He is looking
>>as a lab tech, not as a user.
>>
>>Second, they way the data are plotted with all the data at the bottom of
>>the graph, it IS hard to see the differences. But when you look at the
>>data with a reasonable scale, and plot multiple competing radios on the
>>same graph, the differences jump out at you.
>>
>>Third, I look at this data from the perspective of someone who must
>>coexist with all of that noise produced by near neighbors, and others
>>with strong signals with crummy radios.
>>
>>My plot of Bob's data clearly shows the Eagle to be, on average, 5-6 dB
>>cleaner than a TS590, depending on how far off frequency you are
>>listening. 6 dB is an S-unit, and it corresponds to 4X the transmitted
>>noise power. That sure matters to me if I'm trying to copy a weak signal
>>buried by someone else's sideband trash!
>>
>>James, as part of this discussion, I and others have on several
>>occasions, observed that the interference between radios consists of
>>multiple components, most of which are the result of how the radio is
>>built. They are designed in characteristics, the result design decisions
>>made by the engineering team to build a product for a defined set of
>>functions and cost. That's what engineering is! Rick posted an email
>>from N6KR that addressed some of the design decisions he made in
>>designing the K3 and KX3 to make both their TX and RX as clean as 
>>possible.
>>
>>Those mechanisms include, but are not limited to, (see, I can get
>>lawyerly if I wanna) phase noise in the RX, distortion in the RX
>>(measured as intermod -- IMD), and fundamental overload (the interfering
>>signal drives the RX to its voltage limits); phase noise and distortion
>>transmitted by the other station (composite noise in the ARRL tests),
>>his IMD, his key clicks, and overdrive of his audio. The only one of
>>these not the fault of the radio's design is the last one -- overdrive
>>of audio.
>>
>>What is phase noise?  It is a byproduct of the frequency synthesizer
>>that determines the radio's operating frequency, how much of it is
>>present depends strongly on its design. Again, see N6KR's email, which
>>Rick has posted here at least twice. It originally ran on the Elecraft
>>reflector. Read the ARRL Handbook to learn more.
>>
>>What is distortion? It is the non-linear behavior of a system (what you
>>get out of an amplifier is more than a perfect copy of what you put into
>>it), and the "more" consists of harmonics and sideband trash.
>>
>>Overdrive of the audio also creates distortion, thus sideband trash.
>>Overdrive of a power amp also causes its distortion to increase.
>>
>>ALL amplifiers create SOME distortion (harmonics and sidebands). Study
>>the ARRL Handbook to understand why. HOW MUCH distortion is produced
>>depends on the design and how it is driven. How much escapes as
>>harmonics is determined by bandpass filters, both inside the amplifier
>>and outside it.
>>
>>In an earlier post, you made some snide, cheap lawyerly remarks about a
>>radio that was not clean at rated power and had to be run at lower power
>>to be clean. The distortion in ALL amplifiers varies with their supply
>>voltage (close to their design voltage, more supply voltage = cleaner)
>>and output power. Typical ham amplifiers are cleaner at half power than
>>at full power. When I use the word "amplifier" here I'm also talking
>>about the output stage of a ham transceiver.
>>
>>And don't tell me that we have not tried to teach you. At least a month
>>ago, I posted a link to an excellent tutorial on the topic by K6XX. It's
>>still on my website. k9yc.com/publish.htm
>>
>>73, Jim K9YC
>>_______________________________________________
>>TenTec mailing list
>>TenTec at contesting.com
>>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
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