[TenTec] SDR's and TT (topic altered)

[rick@dj0ip.de]

Barry, first of all, like you, I no longer use QSK in a contest, but I do
run a fairly fast Semi-QSK.

Agree, the Maestro is a fine design and eliminates the need for needing a
computer.
My only beef is price.
Over here in DL, it costs nearly as much as a TS-590SG.

I understand that a lot of people buy high-end products, but the masses buy
radios much closer to the $1K mark.  And many more buy close to the $2K or
perhaps $2.5K mark.
I don't see how a company will stay in business, long term, catering only to
the high end.
As I said, the 6300 with Maestro is nearly $3K and over here $3.5K.

When I met with Gerald in late June, I tried to encourage him to give us an
entry level (to DUC) product, but he just wasn't interested.  

Other companies are doing so.
Anon has models, but there are other brands in that market with more on
their way.
Most are so far just QRP transceivers.

SSB Electronics markets (not their own design) the Zeuss.
FDM had the DUO.
And there's one more whose name I don't recall.

When these three grow up a little and start producing 100w versions, it will
begin to possibly squeeze the 6300 out.  

Sun SDR "looks" real good but I haven't heard any real live feedback.
They even have a new radio "supposedly shipping" that included a large color
display and a handful of knobs.
It's a 100w radio.

And then there's the China factor...

If I could dictate the market, I would demand all SDR companies publish open
APIs to their control, so that we could buy our User Interfaces (box of
knobs) from any 3rd party.  THEN we would watch the market get real
interesting.  

73 - Rick, DJ0IP
(Nr. Frankfurt, Germany)



-----Original Message-----
From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Barry N1EU
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 3:38 PM
To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
Subject: Re: [TenTec] SDR's and TT (topic altered)

Rick, I understand your objection to the Maestro based on price but I find
it impressive from an engineering and user perspective.  Flex isn't after
the entry level, no doubt about that.  But I think it will prove to be an
enormously successful product.

Flex Radio was approached recently about opening up the Maestro API so that
it could be interfaced to an OpenHPSDR SDR.  I was happily surprised when
they responded that they would be willing to do it.  I hope it spurs the
development of even more "SDRs in a box" that are Maestro-interface-able
that will compete on performance and price with the Flex 6500/6700,
especially the 6700 (I NEED two receivers).  And to bring it home to
Ten-Tec, I sincerely hope that Ten-Tec will introduce a direct sampling hf
xcvr that will accommodate those of us who love knobs.  For the mid and
high-end, manufacturers MUST embrace DDC/DUC going forward or they will
simply be left behind in the market 5 years from now.

Barry N1EU

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:24 AM, rick at dj0ip.de <Rick at dj0ip.de> wrote:

> Interesting comments and food for thought, Duane.
>
> I once ran an entire CQWW DX CW contest with the Orion on a shelf, 
> almost out of reach and the Remote tuning knob next to the keyboard.  
> Band change was handled by the logging program.  When it was all over 
> and done, I thought about it and could not remember ever touching the 
> radio.  Perhaps I occasionally hit the AF or RF gain but I couldn't
remember doing so.
>
> On the Eagle I find I must work with the RF Gain control.  I suppose 
> the dynamic range of the AGC was better on the Orion.  Other than 
> that, I really don't touch the radio much during the contest.  I 
> almost always run the bandwidth as tight as it goes.
>
> Based on that, the single Flex knob might be enough, but on SSB, I 
> actually do work with the bandwidth and bandpass a bit more.  So the 
> T-MATE-2 would probably be enough... if Flex would only write drivers 
> for it.  But they won't and most likely never will.  The next step up 
> is the Maestro and I find that ludicrous!  With that they have priced 
> themselves out of the entry level and even mid-range market.
>
> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
> (Nr. Frankfurt, Germany)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Duane 
> Calvin
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 3:16 PM
> To: 'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'
> Subject: [TenTec] SDR's and TT (topic altered)
>
> That recovery is not in real time, and I don't know the exact delay 
> (it's
> small) but you can hear the other station (or others) in the RX while 
> transmitting, between CW elements.  So, maybe you hear him half a 
> character later than in a "realtime" rig, but I suspect it's a shorter 
> time than the human recovery time ("oh, wait, someone trying to break 
> . . .")  Steve, N5AC, described it to me at HamCom this year - it's pretty
sophisticated,
> and the result at the user's end is to not even notice a delay.   I run
QSK
> all the time, and in use, it's not noticeably different from any TT 
> rig other than you can actually hear the other guy better.  (That 
> audio thing Barry mentioned.)  Regarding the lack of knobs, I can't argue
there.
> Sometimes I miss reaching for a knob to tweak something, but I've 
> found it's more rare than I thought it would be.  I have the 
> "FLEXcontrol" (single knob, assignable to 4 functions) and I use it 
> almost exclusively for tuning.
> I'm very pleased with my 6500 - I knew it would take a heck of a rig 
> to make me happy after the Orion, but, other than doing more computer 
> diddling than I'd like on occasion when setting up new digital modes, 
> I really like it.
>
>         73, Duane
>
> Duane Calvin, AC5AA
> Austin, Texas
> ac5aa at ac5aa.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Barry 
> N1EU
> Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 7:59 AM
> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] TenTec Digest, Vol 156, Issue 4
>
> I'm not sure that's the right question to ask because recovery doesn't 
> necessarily happen in real time.  The Flex T/R cw recovery is really a 
> mind blower for an SDR.  But does it necessarily mean you can do 
> actual QSK and hear someone else trying to break you in real time?  I 
> think there's still receive latency so that even with the receiver 
> recovering, it still lags real time signals by 150msec (or whatever).
>
> Barry N1EU
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 8:50 AM, rick at dj0ip.de <Rick at dj0ip.de> wrote:
>
> > Paul, when you release the PTT and the green line drops, how long 
> > does it take for the receiver to recover?
> >
> > 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
> > (Nr. Frankfurt, Germany)
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
> > Paul Christensen
> > Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 2:38 PM
> > To: 'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'
> > Subject: Re: [TenTec] TenTec Digest, Vol 156, Issue 4
> >
> > > Sorry Barry, latency measured on the Anan does not necessarily 
> > > apply to
> > the FLEX 6000.
> >
> > I made timing and latency measurements of my Flex 6700 using an 
> > Agilent 4-channel DSO.  I captured the data and uploaded the DSO 
> > graphic
> images.
> > Keep an eye on the PTT trace from the external keyer as the timing
> > reference.    QSK performance has improved further since the date of
> these
> > measurements.  QSK performance is at least as good as the K3 and the
many
> > Ten Tecs I've owned.   It is fast.  At 40+ wpm, I don't feel like I'm
> > dragging characters behind me due to any latency, and there are no 
> > headphone audio thumps or clicks in CW T/R transitions.
> >
> >
> > https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/flex_6700_cw_keying
> > _v
> > _elecr
> > aft_k3
> >
> > Paul, W9AC
> >
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> >
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