[TenTec] Flex Radio for Contesting

Tue Dec 8 13:45:26 EST 2015

OK, I don't claim to be a "real contester" as I don't sit in a chair for 48 hours or run at 45 wpm (then again, not many contesters run at this speed either.)  I enjoy CW and RTTY contesting in small doses, and typically do S&P, and small runs since low power and poor antenna usually mean I get run off the frequency.  What I've found on CW is that, running between 30 and 35 wpm when I make a call, often, if the other station is quick on the trigger, I hear "tC5AA" for my call (loss of the first dit in the leading A).  At first, I thought they were getting my call wrong, then I realized it was the turnaround latency.  No big deal, I just went from there.  Now, if I were "running" instead of S&P, and the person at the other end sent his call once and was quick on his reply, then I might not get the first element of the first letter of his call.  I've been running narrower filters than I usually do, and if I had realized this might be hurting the turnaround time, I would have defaulted back to my normal 1000 Hz with the APF engaged.  

Now on RTTY, it shows up a little more obviously because the baud rate is faster.  Here, I was decoding "_c5AA" a lot of the time on the first pass of receiving my call.  Not a real problem because most RTTY contesters include the call both at the beginning and end of the exchange because of similar turnaround problems with other gear.  

So, yes, for a contester who runs extremely high rates, this could impact them.  Then again, due to their abilities, it might not.  I can tell you that I'm as pleased with my FLEX-6500 in contests as I ever was with my Omni VI+ or my Orion, and that I enjoy using it just as much as I did either of them.  

Duane Calvin, AC5AA
Austin, Texas
ac5aa at ac5aa.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Nathan Moreschi via TenTec
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2015 12:09 PM
To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment; rick at dj0ip.de; 'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'
Cc: Nathan Moreschi
Subject: Re: [TenTec] Flex Radio for Contesting

CW

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 

  On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 12:43 PM, rick at dj0ip.de<Rick at dj0ip.de> wrote:   Was that in SSB or CW, Nate?

73
Rick, DJ0IP

-----Original Message-----
From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Nathan Moreschi via TenTec
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 3:38 PM
To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
Cc: Nathan Moreschi
Subject: [TenTec] Flex Radio for Contesting

I'm not sure about the differences in latency between the Flex 6500 and Flex 6700 (if any) but I wouldn't rule them out for serious contesting.
Here's a post from K9CT during last week's ARRL 160 Contest:
3830 Show Score

|  |
|  |  |  |  |  |
| 3830 Show ScoreGoal was to beat last year's effort. Not as many QSOs  
|but had more mults. Thefirst few hours are the best and most  
|important. If you miss any part of that,you can't make it up.  |  |  
|View on 3830scores.com | Preview by Yahoo |  |
|  |

73,
Nate/N4YDU      From: Barry N1EU <barry.n1eu at gmail.com>
 To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment <tentec at contesting.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2015 8:41 AM
 Subject: Re: [TenTec] TenTec Digest, Vol 156, Issue 4

I just measured 170msec latency on the 6500 in cw receive.  It's a lot (too much for serious contesting IMHO) but it's not 350msec.

My methodology was to transmit a single dit using another rig and used a microphone/soundcard to record the tx sidetone of rig 1 and then the received dit on rig 2.

For comparison, my Orion II measured 45msec and my ANAN-100D SDR 70msec for cw rx latency.

73, Barry N1EU

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Barry N1EU <barry.n1eu at gmail.com> wrote:

> I will personally measure the latency of the Flex 6500 and get back to 
> you.  I'm not believing 350msec at this point.
>
> 73, Barry N1EU
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 7:59 AM, rick at dj0ip.de <Rick at dj0ip.de> wrote:
>
>> Sorry Barry, latency measured on the Anan does not necessarily apply 
>> to the FLEX 6000.
>>
>> Less than a year ago it was 350mS on the 6xxx, as measured by Rob 
>> Sherwood.
>>
>> We've had this discussion before and Rob jumped in and confirmed the
>> 350 number.
>> I'm not sure which reflector it was on.  Might have been here, might 
>> have been on the Eagle or OM7 reflector.
>>
>> As I said, it may have changed but not long ago it was at 350.
>> Until someone steps up and states that (s)he has measured it and 
>> found it better, that's the number I'm sticking with for the Flex 6xxx radios.
>>
>> FB on the Anon latency numbers.
>>
>> At 25mS you can still hear in between dits at 40 wpm but just barely.
>> When you go above that, you no longer hear between dits.
>>
>> After about 40 or 50ms latency, you (or rather I and a few friends) 
>> can no longer transmit clean CW by listening to the real time signal.
>> In that case we have to mute the radio and listen to the sidetone of 
>> the keyer because the delay is annoying and confuses the OP.
>>
>> Delay is still an issue but it has gotten a lot better.
>>
>> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
>> (Nr. Frankfurt, Germany)
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
>> Barry N1EU
>> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 1:49 PM
>> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
>> Subject: Re: [TenTec] TenTec Digest, Vol 156, Issue 4
>>
>> Ha, I love a good tussle  ;-)
>>
>> I measured it on an ANAN-100D about a year ago.  I've seen numbers 
>> for the Flex 6K that are similar.  Latency of about 100-150msec for 
>> cw receive and ssb receive and transmit.  CW transmit latency in the 
>> ANAN and Flex is very low (on the order of tens of msec) because they 
>> both optimize it in the FPGA.
>>
>> 73, Barry N1EU
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 5:45 AM, rick at dj0ip.de <Rick at dj0ip.de> wrote:
>>
>> > Yes, it used to be much worse.
>> > It is now 350 mS unless there has been some VERY recent change.
>> >
>> > Barry, if you say it's better, please specify who measured it and 
>> > approximately when.
>> > Otherwise I strongly disagree.
>> >
>> > I am quoting recent measurements by Rob Sherwood.
>> > Somewhere buried in 10,000 emails I have a recent email from Rob 
>> > confirming this.
>> > It was while running one of the big contests earlier this year.
>> >
>> > I'm not talking about old 5000 rigs, I mean the new flagship line, 6xxx.
>> >
>> > 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
>> > (Nr. Frankfurt, Germany)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
>> > Barry N1EU
>> > Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 11:29 AM
>> > To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
>> > Subject: Re: [TenTec] TenTec Digest, Vol 156, Issue 4
>> >
>> > Rick, the latency on the latest SDR offerings has come WAY down, 
>> > especially on the Flex 6000 series.  They ARE contest capable.
>> >
>> > I agree on the knobs.  I applaud the Flex Maestro interface panel - 
>> > I think it's a harbinger of products to come in the future, where 
>> > many vendors can offer various front panels that can be interfaced 
>> > to many different SDR types.  Or someone could write the code to 
>> > use an Orion front panel to control an SDR, etc.
>> >
>> > For me, the draw of the direct sampling SDR radios (ANAN, Flex 6K) 
>> > is that their receivers simply sound better than the best superhet/dsp i.f.
>> radios.
>> >
>> > With the introduction of the not-overly-impressive IC-7300, perhaps 
>> > we'll be seeing several direct sampling (DDC/DUC) bundled in a 
>> > fully knobbed self-contained box in the next 1-3 years.
>> >
>> > 73, Barry N1EU
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 7:24 AM, rick at dj0ip.de <Rick at dj0ip.de> wrote:
>> >
>> > > EXCEPT . . .  for latency and lack of affordable knobs.
>> > >
>> > > Last reviews I saw still had turnaround latency between TX and RX 
>> > > at
>> > > 350 mS.
>> > > If both ops are running SDR, and trying to run full QSK, that's
>> > > 0.7 seconds.
>> > > It's gonna sound like "Chop Phooey" on the air!
>> > >
>> > > The set of knobs (Maestro) for the lowest cost $2000 Flex Radio 
>> > > (in the class that interests most of us) is $1200 or so.
>> > > OR...the big single knob from Flex will set you back $200 if you 
>> > > are willing to wait long enough to get one.
>> > >
>> > > A decent 3rd party set of knobs, such as the Wood Box Radio
>> > > T-MATE-2 probably has enough knobs for most of us, but it will 
>> > > set you back
>> > > $300 AND Flex software won't support it.  You need a 3rd party 
>> > > software (i.e. N4PY Radio Control Software) to use it with your Flex.
>> > > Get it all set up and working with your WIN7 computer, then 
>> > > upgrade to
>> > WIN10 and watch the "real"
>> > > fun begin.
>> > >
>> > > Other than that, there's not much wrong with the current crop of 
>> > > SDR radios...
>> > >
>> > > 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
>> > > (Nr. Frankfurt, Germany)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
>> > > Kim Elmore
>> > > Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 2:40 AM
>> > >
>> > > There's absolutely nothing wrong with SDR; I don't fully 
>> > > understand why so many people complain about it
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -------
>> > >
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