[TenTec] OT: 7300 buy back program

Tue Aug 16 08:59:51 EDT 2016

You don't need a PC.  You can use Maestro or an iPad.

Violated the laws of mathematics?  I suggest reading this:
https://www.flex-radio.nl/flex-6000-serie/dynamicrange/

Barry N1EU

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Gary J FollettDukes HiFi <
dukeshifi at comcast.net> wrote:

> Flex has never been shy about touting their own perfection, ala' the 2
> hour on-air infomercials on 20 meters every Saturday afternoon.
>
> And you still need a PC to run one…
>
> Apparently someone has devised a way to get more than 96 dB dynamic range
> out of 16 bits and my congratulations to them for having successfully
> violated the laws of mathematics.
>
> I wish they would apply that to the sub-par Compact Disk format with which
> we are stuck…
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 16, 2016, at 4:25 AM, Barry N1EU <barry.n1eu at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > The argument that the current 16-bit digital sampling offerings (Flex 6K,
> > ANAN-100/200, MB-1, etc) are insufficient in bit depth and sampling rate
> > doesn't hold water IMHO.  Besides my own experience of no observable
> > overload during major DX and 160M contests, here are a few more tidbits
> to
> > consider:
> >
> > http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,110479.0.html
> >
> > https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/adc-
> overload-myths-debunked
> >
> > etc etc
> >
> > Barry N1EU
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 7:43 AM, rick at dj0ip.de <Rick at dj0ip.de> wrote:
> >
> >> EXCELLENT Gary.  Thanks.
> >>
> >> I only disagree on the timeline.  I don't think it will take so long.
> >>
> >> The MB-1 from Sun SDR or Sun Expert (not sure which brand they are
> >> pushing) "claims" to be what you described, but it costs $5K.  However
> >> prices will drop rapidly as soon as competition is there.
> >>
> >> Within 3 years we will have it.
> >>
> >> In the year 2020, SDR with knobs a'plenty.  (no computer required)
> >>
> >> BTW, has anyone actually seen or used the MB-1?
> >> I haven't heard a single user review yet.
> >>
> >> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
> >> (Nr. Frankfurt, Germany)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary J
> >> FollettDukes HiFi
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 7:23 AM
> >> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
> >> Subject: Re: [TenTec] OT: 7300 buy back program
> >>
> >> I agree that discussion of the general concept of direct conversion and
> >> SDR is relevant to this reflector regardless of brand. At some point,
> all
> >> radios will be of this design because it will be the cheapest possible
> way
> >> to produce a radio.
> >>
> >> I have not used the 7300, likely will not. I’d prefer an Omni 6+ that
> has
> >> SSB audio I can tolerate, a notch filter INSIDE the AGC loop and a
> >> standalone bandscope.
> >>
> >> The topic of digitization at this level was discussed ad-nauseum back in
> >> 1983 and 1984 as Compact Disk technology was just beginning as a
> >> “replacement for Vinyl records”. Things did not quite work out because
> the
> >> number of bits in the audio samples and the sampling frequency (44.1
> KHz)
> >> required compromises that people with musical ears could easily hear.
> >>
> >> The move towards direct digital conversion and SDR is a replay of the
> same
> >> thing. If you don’t use enough bits in the sampling process, and don’t
> >> sample often enough, there is not sufficient dynamic range to allow for
> the
> >> wide variations in signal strength experienced on HF.
> >>
> >> Most good operators can copy signals that are within a few dB of the
> noise
> >> floor, especially in CW. These signals can easily be S1 or less on most
> >> good receivers, depending on band noise.
> >>
> >> The strongest signals (particularly in Europe with the big shortwave
> >> stations) can easily be 100 dB over S9 (48 dB) for a total signal
> dynamic
> >> range of 148 dB. 16 bit sampling only allows for 96 dB dynamic range. In
> >> order to get 148 dB dynamic range (3 dB dynamic range improvement per
> bit)
> >> you would need 32 bits minimum to handle the range.
> >>
> >> Keep in mind that, even though you are not LISTENING to that 100 dB over
> >> S9 shortwave station, the receiver is still seeing it as this is part of
> >> the spectrum that the DSP is trying to unravel to select your signal of
> >> choice.
> >>
> >> When the input to a digital device exceeds its dynamic range, the
> results
> >> are far from linear so artifacts, not really unlike severe overload in
> >> analog circuits, are heard, but often to a far worse degree than with
> >> analog systems.
> >>
> >> By analogy, the simple harmonic distortion produced in Vinyl by
> >> overdriving the cutting lathe were far more tolerable to the listener
> than
> >> the nasty aliasing that occurred from under sampling of audio signals in
> >> early CD recordings and the non-harmonic distortion that arose from the
> >> steps of quantization error with only 16 bit amplitude range,
> especially on
> >> soft notes whose bit level resolution was maybe two or three bits.
> >>
> >> As manufacturers learn this (Ten Tec included) things will get better,
> so
> >> long as the focus is on worst case receive scenarios. More bit depth and
> >> faster sampling rates will improve direct digital receivers to a point
> that
> >> they will be better than their analog counterparts. The marketplace
> will,
> >> however, dictate when that occurs.
> >>
> >> 24 bit 96 KHz sampled audio has been available technically for 15 or 20
> >> years using the DVD platform, but I have yet to see a disk that can
> offer
> >> it even to my damaged hearing. The marketplace preferred iPod(YUCK!) and
> >> MP3 (double YUCK!) because you could put 2000 “songs” onto a chip the
> size
> >> of a grain of rice, 100% of the songs being unlistenable sonically.
> >> Quantity wins out over quality for most people, especially if it’s
> cheap.
> >>
> >> Accepting a product with the obvious failings of poorly implemented
> direct
> >> detection creates a market for the junk (translation - entry level) and
> >> delays introduction of top performance designs.
> >>
> >> PS: I don’t want to have to have a PC running just to sit and listen to
> 20
> >> meters or to see a full scan of the band while I am doing something
> else.
> >> The only reason I don’t have an Eagle today is that getting a bandscope
> on
> >> it is a big PITA and I still need to have the PC running to use one.
> >>
> >> It will be a long time before TenTec or anyone else will offer a top
> >> performing fully digital receiver, with knobs and stand alone, so long
> as a
> >> trinket market exists for the performance level offered in the 7300.
> >>
> >> Gary
> >>
> >> W0DVN
> >>
> >> PPS: There is still no digital camera anywhere with the color depth to
> >> match old fashioned Kodachrome 64. 8 bits per color? Not enough! Same
> >> cause, same result.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I am wondering about the same sorts of things.  I bought a new Omni VII
> >> during the Fire Sale.  I got it with the optional 300 Hz CW filter.
> Once
> >> the novelty wore off, I started getting annoyed by having to push a menu
> >> button, then scroll to a setting, and then select something like the
> >> setting the keyer speed, and do some other actions, just to do what a
> lowly
> >> knob does on my Corsair II and my MFJ keyer.  So, that radio has found a
> >> new home.  The Argonaut VI has a complex system of making adjustments,
> too,
> >> but it is much easier to use than the Omni VII, and seems to have a
> better
> >> receiver.  I am using the Corsair II on HF again, and am starting to see
> >> why those people who also own one, or have an Omni VI, prefer them to
> the
> >> newer rigs.  This was brought home to me rather abruptly with the recent
> >> threads on keeping Orion II rigs functional.  With a rather obstructed
> trap
> >> vertical installed on a hillside, I am not going to set the contesting
> >> world on fire no matter what radio or radios I use.  So, I can still
> prefer
> >> high performance radios that are getting on in years, like me, and are
> much
> >> less complex to use.
> >>>
> >>> Your Mileage will Most Certainly Vary...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Steve WA9JML
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 8/15/2016 1:16 PM, Mike Bryce wrote:
> >>>> I have a hard time handling over $1500 for a radio and being told it’s
> >> ‘entry level.’ Nothing like scaring the bejesus out of a new ham who
> after
> >> spending all that money for a rig, he/she ends up with ‘entry level’
> radio.
> >>>>
> >>>> Does one really need a $4k/$5k radio to have fun with?
> >>>>
> >>>> How in the world did you guys survive contesting using the Triton IVs,
> >> the TS-520s, the FT-101s, and the HW-101s?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike WB8VGE
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> TenTec mailing list
> >>> TenTec at contesting.com
> >>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
> >>
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> >>
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> >>
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>
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