[TenTec] notch filter for Eagle?

rick@dj0ip.de Rick at DJ0IP.de
Fri Jul 21 11:37:49 EDT 2017 

Gary,

We don't all have the same likes, wants and needs.
There is no one-size fits all.

The only reason I joined the thread was because a couple of people dinged the Eagle's auto-notcher for not working on CW.  Well I am not aware of anyone's auto-notch that can distinguish between the desired Morse signal and the disturbing signal.

When people started trashing the auto-notch in favor of the manual notch, I decided to join in and share my experience with SDR and show just how good a good auto-notch can work.
When I have my razor-sharp CW filter (1.04 shape factor) at 50 Hz, I simply don't need a manual notch filter on CW.  And on SSB I get amazing results with my auto-notcher.

For the life of me I can't see why one needs a notch filter for FM, but then I have no intention of working FM on HF.  I haven't done that for 50 years now.  Way back when in college we did that.

As for the 7300, keep in mind we have far worse condx over here than in the states.
You may not even need it there.

I run only one antenna here (limited by the landlord) and it is an all band OCFD cut for 80m.  On 40m it has 4 lobes which means it picks up in almost all directions.  The EU broadcast stations come roaring thru.  So when on 20m with just 10dB of preselection from the 7300's front end, I foresee problems - easily overcome with a preselector.

But I don't have a 7300 yet and may never own one so it's not really an issue here yet.

73
Rick, DJ0IP


-----Original Message-----
From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dukes HiFi
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 4:35 PM
To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
Subject: Re: [TenTec] notch filter for Eagle?

Rick:

Sorry, I misunderstood. I guess I thought we were talking about Eagle/Orion radios and I carried the thread forward.

That level of notch performance you describe in the SDR is pretty darned good!.

The other day, when I said “end of thread” for me, that certainly was not an order to stop the topic. Of course I am not a reflector moderator and have no authority.

I only had gotten to the point at which I thought there might be some folks who were getting tired of my sort of monologue on the topic. Several interesting comments have since been posted by others, including yourself, on the topic.
It is still an interesting discussion, though as others have said, its importance in day-to-day operation is limited.

Your comment about the IC-7300 and the possibility for adding a preselector is well taken. I was not aware of that and might even look at it myself since I do really like the radio otherwise.

Still no word from Ten Ten on new products so what the heck???

Gary




> On Jul 21, 2017, at 9:12 AM, rick at dj0ip.de <Rick at DJ0IP.de> wrote:
> 
> I don't recall saying anything about "Eagle".
> 
> I was using an $800 SDR QRP transceiver.
> YES, the S-Meter dropped.  All traces of the disturbing signal completely vanished.
> 
> In CW I only need the notch about once in a million years when using a radio with good filters, so an auto notch with that performance is certainly more than good enough.
> 
> 73
> Rick, DJ0IP
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary 
> F
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 4:06 PM
> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] notch filter for Eagle?
> 
> Rick, are you telling me that the S meter needle dropped when you needled the notch filter? None of the Eagles I have had produced at result.
> 
> Gary
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Jul 21, 2017, at 1:33 AM, rick at dj0ip.de <Rick at DJ0IP.de> wrote:
>> 
>> I was operating 40m SSB recently and had a disturbing dual-tone carrier come up on my frequency.  The two tones were about 800 Hz and 600 Hz, +/-, and a good S9.   
>> 
>> I pushed the notch button on my SDR transceiver and both tones instantly and completely disappeared, enabling perfect copy of the SSB station.  I was so surprised, I thought the two-tone signal had coincidentally ceased. I turned the notch off and both tones were back at S9.  Notch on again: both tones completely gone.
>> 
>> I find this to be a dramatic improvement over the old fashion manual notch filter which could only remove one tone.
>> 
>> 73
>> Rick, DJ0IP
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
>> Bernie Skoch via TenTec
>> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 3:07 AM
>> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
>> Cc: Bernie Skoch; Rick Cochran; n4py3 at earthlink.net
>> Subject: Re: [TenTec] notch filter for Eagle?
>> 
>> It's a very nice feature if you are bring QRMd by a nearby carrier.  With a good working one you can notch the carrier out and not have to listen to it.
>> 
>>> On Jul 20, 2017, at 20:51, Rick Cochran via TenTec <tentec at contesting.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Well, use almost all CW on my OMNI VII.  I am not sure what the notch filter is.  Never used it.
>>> 
>>> I have a couple of Yaesu rigs and have no idea how to use notch.
>>> 
>>> Doesn't sound like a critical feature to me.
>>> 
>>> 73s,
>>> 
>>> WO8L
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 20, 2017, at 8:22 PM, Carl Moreschi <n4py3 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I find the hardware noise blanker on my Orion works very well.  It's on a par with the Flex 6500 noise blanker system.
>>>> 
>>>> Carl Moreschi N4PY
>>>> 58 Hogwood Rd
>>>> Louisburg, NC 27549
>>>> www.n4py.com
>>>> 
>>>>> On 7/20/2017 8:18 PM, David W LeJeune, Sr wrote:
>>>>> Thanks, Rick.  I'd heard that Rob had a hand in it's improvement.  Had a friend who had one of the original Orion's and the noise blanker was almost worthless.  On my Orion II, the auto notch still causes distortion of the audio signal when in use.  Not sure if this is common.  Still use the Orion II on 80meter SSB and a lot on CW on all bands.  But the Flex 6500 is a lot better than my old Flex 5000 on CW.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dave WN5V
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
>>>>> rick at dj0ip.de
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 4:55 PM
>>>>> To: 'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TenTec] notch filter for Eagle?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dave,
>>>>> 
>>>>> That is only because Rob Sherwood worked long and hard on Ten-Tec and FLEX to fix their problems.  When they originally shipped, neither were any good at blanking electric fences.
>>>>> We all owe Rob a huge amount of gratitude for the many years of service he has given us.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 73
>>>>> Rick, DJ0IP
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
>>>>> David W LeJeune, Sr
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 9:48 PM
>>>>> To: 'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TenTec] notch filter for Eagle?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have an electrical fence next door.  Both the noise blanker in my Orion II and the one in my Flex 6500 easily take out that type of noise as well as ignition noise.  The Orion has a manual notch filter (sort of).  It's really a fixed freq notch at either 300 hz or 1050 hz.  You can use that with CW and the RIT - move the interfering hetrodyne inside of the selected notch. Of course, you have to accept the change in the pitch of the CW signal.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dave WN5V
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
>>>>> rick at dj0ip.de
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 9:36 AM
>>>>> To: 'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TenTec] notch filter for Eagle?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gary,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Your Pro 2 of course is ancient history now.  Was a great radio in its day.
>>>>> Manual notch filters are fine on CW because "we" use our brain to notch the disturbance and not the desired frequency.  The auto-notch can't tell the difference.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regardless of what it can and can't do, if it dies, you probably won't even get spare parts for it.  And brand new radios are no longer coming with manual notch filters (except for the old stock sitting on shelves and being offered at dumping prices to get rid of it).
>>>>> 
>>>>> If my memory serves me right, that was still one of the radios with a useful noise blanker for blanking out electrical fences.  None of the new DSP noise blankers can do that as well as the old noise blankers.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There certainly were advantages in the older radios but we will probably only see one more new radio come out in Japan with that old technology...at the end of this year.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't know if Mike will bring out an Eagle or Omni VII again.  The eagle has a good noise blanker, the OM7 has a DSP blanker, but it has been improved in firmware for use near electrical fences; still not as good as older technology though.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ones step forward, two steps back! (hi)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 73
>>>>> Rick
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
>>>>> Dukes HiFi
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 4:03 PM
>>>>> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
>>>>> Cc: Bernie Skoch
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TenTec] notch filter for Eagle?
>>>>> 
>>>>> In side-by-side comparison, an Icon IC-756 Pro2 notch filter versus an Orion/Eagle type notch filter, using my Pro 2 manual notch filter (which also works in CW, and is inside the AGC loop), I can hear weak but desired signals far more easily with the otherwise inferior Pro 2 than I can with the otherwise superior Orion/Eagle. This is especially true when the offending carrier is keyed, since the Pro 2 receiver is not constantly adjusting gain to compensate for the keyed offending carrier.
>>>>> 
>>>>> One can SORT of obtain similar results by turning off the AGC in the Orion/Eagle when using the notch filter as long as you don’t need any AGC action.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gary
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 20, 2017, at 8:34 AM, Bernie Skoch via TenTec<tentec at contesting.com>  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Rick,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I do not believe I am "out in right field."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Someone commented that all Ten Tec notch filters are useless.  I disagreed.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 73,
>>>>>> Bernie
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jul 20, 2017, at 02:30, rick at dj0ip.de<Rick at DJ0IP.de>  wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You guys are all out in right field.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> No radio's auto notch filter works in CW mode.
>>>>>>> They cannot distinguish between the useful tone and the disturbing tone.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And yes, in that case, a manual notch filter is indeed better, 
>>>>>>> but show me a radio built today that has one.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I find the Eagle's notch filter effective on SSB.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>> Rick, DJ0IP
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
>>>>>>> Bernie Skoch via TenTec
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 3:21 AM
>>>>>>> To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
>>>>>>> Cc: Bernie Skoch; w2iy at verizon.net
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [TenTec] notch filter for Eagle?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> "It's sort of useless, like all Ten Tec notch filters..."
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I _LOVE_ my Orion II notch filter!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The automatic feature is good, but the manual one is about the 
>>>>>>> best I've ever used.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 73,
>>>>>>> Bernie
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2017, at 16:33, Gary F<dukeshifi at comcast.net>  wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The Eagle does have a notch function. I don't recall how to 
>>>>>>>> activate it
>>>>>>> but it is in the manual.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It's sort of useless, like all Ten Tec notch filters, since it 
>>>>>>>> is outside
>>>>>>> the AGC loop, so, while it does not have the carrier, it also 
>>>>>>> attenuated your desired signal by about as much as it reduces the carrier.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The reduction to 20 watts in Tune is self-defense. Orion's do 
>>>>>>>> it too. This
>>>>>>> is to prevent the presence of full 100 watts into a mismatch. It 
>>>>>>> is good policy.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Orion's had an option in which you could press the Power 
>>>>>>>> button, I
>>>>>>> believe, to get 100 watts in Tune after match had been reached.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Red arid green the A//B VFO, there really is no A or B VFO in 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> traditional sense and Eagle only has one tuning knob. Therefore, 
>>>>>>> the A/B indicator serves no function in transceive operation. In 
>>>>>>> split operation, that indicator should flip when going fro RX to 
>>>>>>> TX to tell you which displayed frequency is the TX frequency.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2017, at 3:05 PM, Michael Tortorella<w2iy at verizon.net>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hi all, I am hearing an awful lot of steady carrier signals up 
>>>>>>>>> here in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> frozen north of Downeast Maine.   Most are not very strong and they go
>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>>>> when I disconnect the antenna so they are external to the radio.
>>>>>>>>> Today I am chasing TR8CA on 20 CW, he is way down in the 
>>>>>>>>> noise, and
>>>>>>>>> 100 Hz away from one of these carriers.  Sure would be nice to 
>>>>>>>>> have something like a notch filter to help in situations like 
>>>>>>>>> these but I could not see anywhere in the manual or front 
>>>>>>>>> panel where I could notch the offending carrier.  Is there any list wisdom on this?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On another note, I did contact service at TT last week with my 
>>>>>>>>> question about power out in autotune; after only a few days 
>>>>>>>>> delay I got an answer that the power out in autotune is 20 
>>>>>>>>> watts even though the power output shown on the display is 100.
>>>>>>>>> This seems not quite right from a human factors point of view, 
>>>>>>>>> maybe there can be a firmware fix?  Also, when exchanging 
>>>>>>>>> VFOs, the A,B labels do not change even when the B vfo is in 
>>>>>>>>> large type at the top of the display.  I find this confusing.  
>>>>>>>>> OK, I guess this turned into a longer letter about a couple of 
>>>>>>>>> other things besides notch filtering, so please excuse my 
>>>>>>>>> prolixity and thank for the BW.  Any suggestions
>>>>>>> appreciated.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thanks and 73, Mike W2IY
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
>>>>>>>>> http://www.avg.com
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