Topband: Topband Digest, Vol 136, Issue 22
Rune Øye
runeegil at hotmail.com
Tue Apr 29 14:13:30 EDT 2014
Hi Milt
>From your comment below, 2x75 ohm in parallel couls also be a solution for mee.
I just need to hunt and see if i can find any of the stuff you guys are using in the US. Well i can allways get hold of
whatever cable her but it will cost XXXX :-) Thansk again for help and info.
73 Rune LA7THA
Bigger is most times Better. Especially when Big is the correct value.
For my 160 Meter, 1/4 WL vertical, which is more than 400 feet from my
operating position, I use 1/2" CATV hardline X 2.
Since the feed point impedance of the vertical measures ~ 39 Ohms, I
parallel two of the 75 Ohm cables for a near perfect match to the antenna.
The 420 foot long run of paralleled cables dampens the slight mismatch
between the presented impedance of 37.5 Ohms and the desired 50 Ohms for the
amplifier such that the Alpha does not light a single reflected power
segment from 1.800 to 1.880.
The calculated loss is a mere 0.2%. The proof is in the pudding. It works
stupendously well.
73 de Milt, N5IA
> From: topband-request at contesting.com
> Subject: Topband Digest, Vol 136, Issue 22
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:00:10 -0400
>
> Send Topband mailing list submissions to
> topband at contesting.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Topband digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Topband Digest, Vol 136, Issue 21 (Rune ?ye)
> 2. 160m sked (David Michael Gaytko // WD4KPD)
> 3. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. (k1fz)
> 4. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder lin
> (Kenneth Silverman)
> 5. Ladder line vs coax loss epiphany (Shoppa, Tim)
> 6. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line.
> (Milt -- N5IA)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 18:55:59 +0000
> From: Rune ?ye <runeegil at hotmail.com>
> To: "topband at contesting.com" <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: Topband Digest, Vol 136, Issue 21
> Message-ID: <DUB126-W32C87291DCBE4F322996BFC4470 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi All,
>
> Thanks for all info regarding my 1000 feet feeder.
> Well
> some people mentioned 2 dB loss is not so much. Personally i am agree on
> what ON4UN says in his book. 0.5 here and another 0.5 ++++ and then you
> are suddenly up to 2-4 dB total loss.
> Not sure how much power 75 ohm CATV cable can handle, running her Acom 2000A amplifier so plenty of horse power.
> I
> will check what is available of 75 ohm CATV cable, but i feel that using
> parallel feeder is a good option for me if i need around 800-1000 feet of
> feeder.
> Thanks again for all help, hope this is up and running to the upcoming winter.
>
> 73 Rune LA7THA
>
>
>
> > From: topband-request at contesting.com
> > Subject: Topband Digest, Vol 136, Issue 21
> > To: topband at contesting.com
> > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 12:00:08 -0400
> >
> > Send Topband mailing list submissions to
> > topband at contesting.com
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > topband-request at contesting.com
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > topband-owner at contesting.com
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Topband digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line.
> > (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
> > 2. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. (Carl)
> > 3. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line.
> > (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
> > 4. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. (Carl)
> > 5. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. (Charlie)
> > 6. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line.
> > (Grant Saviers)
> > 7. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line.
> > (Mike Waters)
> > 8. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line.
> > (Jim Brown)
> > 9. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line.
> > (Mike Waters)
> > 10. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. (k1fz)
> > 11. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line.
> > (Jim Brown)
> > 12. 1000 ft Hardline (Bill & Liz)
> > 13. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. (Carl)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 09:10:33 -0700
> > From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard at karlquist.com>
> > To: Rune ?ye <runeegil at hotmail.com>, "topband at contesting.com"
> > <topband at contesting.com>
> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder
> > line.
> > Message-ID: <535BDA79.3050909 at karlquist.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> >
> > I used to have a 1000 foot long open wire line using
> > 4AWG stranded insulated aluminum wire with an impedance of
> > 450 ohms. At the time, the wire cost $0.15 per foot.
> > I think 4AWG was the smallest size available in aluminum.
> > It is much easier to build a transformer
> > for 450 ohms than 600 ohms, because 450/50 = 9 is
> > a perfect square. The spacing is something like 12.5
> > cm. It is supported every 15 meters with a support that
> > spaces the wires apart by 12.5 cm. There are no intermediate
> > spreaders. Originally, I had some intermediate spreaders but
> > found them to be unnecessary. At each end there is a 50 ohm unbalanced
> > to 50 ohm balanced transformer in cascade with a 50 ohm
> > balanced to 450 ohm balanced transformer. The supports
> > are PVC pipe slipped over "T-posts" (used for fences).
> > I see that the web site you mentioned shows this same
> > technique. Maybe they copied me, hi.
> > It is easily deployed/redeployed. The end to end loss
> > including the transformers is a few tenths of a dB on
> > 160 meters.
> >
> > I moved the shack closer to the antenna and shortened the
> > line to 600 feet. The line has served me well for over
> > 10 years now. There are some photos of the line on my
> > web site www.n6rk.com.
> >
> > Rick N6RK
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 12:17:18 -0400
> > From: "Carl" <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>
> > To: "Richard \(Rick\) Karlquist" <richard at karlquist.com>, Rune ?ye
> > <runeegil at hotmail.com>, <topband at contesting.com>
> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder
> > line.
> > Message-ID: <8982E2306F6C464A8318E5D471EBF3A4 at computer1>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > reply-type=response
> >
> > Shouldnt that line be rotated along its length to maintain balance as done
> > with OWL Beverages?
> >
> > Carl
> > KM1H
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard at karlquist.com>
> > To: "Rune ?ye" <runeegil at hotmail.com>; <topband at contesting.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 12:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line.
> >
> >
> > >I used to have a 1000 foot long open wire line using
> > > 4AWG stranded insulated aluminum wire with an impedance of
> > > 450 ohms. At the time, the wire cost $0.15 per foot.
> > > I think 4AWG was the smallest size available in aluminum.
> > > It is much easier to build a transformer
> > > for 450 ohms than 600 ohms, because 450/50 = 9 is
> > > a perfect square. The spacing is something like 12.5
> > > cm. It is supported every 15 meters with a support that
> > > spaces the wires apart by 12.5 cm. There are no intermediate
> > > spreaders. Originally, I had some intermediate spreaders but
> > > found them to be unnecessary. At each end there is a 50 ohm unbalanced to
> > > 50 ohm balanced transformer in cascade with a 50 ohm
> > > balanced to 450 ohm balanced transformer. The supports
> > > are PVC pipe slipped over "T-posts" (used for fences).
> > > I see that the web site you mentioned shows this same
> > > technique. Maybe they copied me, hi.
> > > It is easily deployed/redeployed. The end to end loss
> > > including the transformers is a few tenths of a dB on
> > > 160 meters.
> > >
> > > I moved the shack closer to the antenna and shortened the
> > > line to 600 feet. The line has served me well for over
> > > 10 years now. There are some photos of the line on my
> > > web site www.n6rk.com.
> > >
> > > Rick N6RK
> > >
> > > _________________
> > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> > >
> > >
> > > -----
> > > No virus found in this message.
> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > Version: 2014.0.4570 / Virus Database: 3920/7399 - Release Date: 04/26/14
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 09:42:59 -0700
> > From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard at karlquist.com>
> > To: Carl <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>, Rune ?ye <runeegil at hotmail.com>,
> > topband at contesting.com
> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder
> > line.
> > Message-ID: <535BE213.8070403 at karlquist.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > On 4/26/2014 9:17 AM, Carl wrote:
> > > Shouldnt that line be rotated along its length to maintain balance as
> > > done with OWL Beverages?
> > >
> > > Carl
> > > KM1H
> > >
> >
> > A big vertical is omni directional and has high signal levels.
> > This is in contrast to the beverage which has low signal levels
> > and tries to null out certain directions. If I disconnect the
> > vertical from the line, the noise level drops many S units,
> > indicating negligible ingress due to line leakage.
> >
> > Rick N6RK
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 13:23:17 -0400
> > From: "Carl" <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>
> > To: "Richard \(Rick\) Karlquist" <richard at karlquist.com>, Rune ?ye
> > <runeegil at hotmail.com>, <topband at contesting.com>
> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder
> > line.
> > Message-ID: <3D29C153DC584503B193CA07B291F6E5 at computer1>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > reply-type=response
> >
> >
> >
> > > On 4/26/2014 9:17 AM, Carl wrote:
> > >> Shouldnt that line be rotated along its length to maintain balance as
> > >> done with OWL Beverages?
> > >>
> > >> Carl
> > >> KM1H
> > >>
> > >
> > > A big vertical is omni directional and has high signal levels.
> > > This is in contrast to the beverage which has low signal levels
> > > and tries to null out certain directions. If I disconnect the
> > > vertical from the line, the noise level drops many S units,
> > > indicating negligible ingress due to line leakage.
> > >
> > > Rick N6RK
> >
> >
> > What about a 4 square?
> >
> > Carl
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 20:31:16 -0400
> > From: "Charlie" <charlie-cunningham at nc.rr.com>
> > To: "'Richard \(Rick\) Karlquist'" <richard at karlquist.com>, "'Carl'"
> > <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>, 'Rune ?ye' <runeegil at hotmail.com>,
> > <topband at contesting.com>
> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder
> > line.
> > Message-ID:
> > <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAF0xXac1rOhFkn7GlcEWNIjCgAAAEAAAACWJM6zd2WdMhBqL3ccUIeMBAAAAAA==@nc.rr.com>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > ??
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Richard
> > (Rick) Karlquist
> > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 12:43 PM
> > To: Carl; Rune ?ye; topband at contesting.com
> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line.
> >
> > On 4/26/2014 9:17 AM, Carl wrote:
> > > Shouldnt that line be rotated along its length to maintain balance as
> > > done with OWL Beverages?
> > >
> > > Carl
> > > KM1H
> > >
> >
> > A big vertical is omni directional and has high signal levels.
> > This is in contrast to the beverage which has low signal levels and tries to
> > null out certain directions. If I disconnect the vertical from the line,
> > the noise level drops many S units, indicating negligible ingress due to
> > line leakage.
> >
> > Rick N6RK
> > _________________
> > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> >
> >
> > ---
> > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
> > http://www.avast.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 17:36:42 -0700
> > From: Grant Saviers <grants2 at pacbell.net>
> > To: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard at karlquist.com>, Rune ?ye
> > <runeegil at hotmail.com>, "topband at contesting.com"
> > <topband at contesting.com>
> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder
> > line.
> > Message-ID: <535C511A.5030600 at pacbell.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > I use 9 gauge Al electric fencing wire for elevated radials among my
> > trees. It is pretty tough stuff, as 3" branches have fallen on it
> > without anything but a little stretch. it doesn't stretch much with
> > time either. Now 7.5 cents per foot on Amazon
> > http://www.amazon.com/Field-Guardian-9-Guage-Aluminum-1000-Feet/dp/B00442G21G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398558684&sr=8-1&keywords=aluminum+fence+wire+9
> >
> > This is the largest size I have found, but would make pretty good open
> > wire feeder.
> >
> > Grant
> >
> > KZ1W
> > On 4/26/2014 9:10 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
> > > I used to have a 1000 foot long open wire line using
> > > 4AWG stranded insulated aluminum wire with an impedance of
> > > 450 ohms. At the time, the wire cost $0.15 per foot.
> > > I think 4AWG was the smallest size available in aluminum.
> > > It is much easier to build a transformer
> > > for 450 ohms than 600 ohms, because 450/50 = 9 is
> > > a perfect square. The spacing is something like 12.5
> > > cm. It is supported every 15 meters with a support that
> > > spaces the wires apart by 12.5 cm. There are no intermediate
> > > spreaders. Originally, I had some intermediate spreaders but
> > > found them to be unnecessary. At each end there is a 50 ohm
> > > unbalanced to 50 ohm balanced transformer in cascade with a 50 ohm
> > > balanced to 450 ohm balanced transformer. The supports
> > > are PVC pipe slipped over "T-posts" (used for fences).
> > > I see that the web site you mentioned shows this same
> > > technique. Maybe they copied me, hi.
> > > It is easily deployed/redeployed. The end to end loss
> > > including the transformers is a few tenths of a dB on
> > > 160 meters.
> > >
> > > I moved the shack closer to the antenna and shortened the
> > > line to 600 feet. The line has served me well for over
> > > 10 years now. There are some photos of the line on my
> > > web site www.n6rk.com.
> > >
> > > Rick N6RK
> > >
> > > _________________
> > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 20:17:05 -0500
> > From: Mike Waters <mikewate at gmail.com>
> > To: topband <topband at contesting.com>
> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder
> > line.
> > Message-ID:
> > <CA+FxYXi=UTyy=DuQpTXAu4T1nWMr_MNobK79a4SMoyERsURjXw at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > Hardline for 160 meters?
> >
> > I've mostly used hardline where I really needed it, like back when I was
> > doing weak signal work on the low end of 144 MHz.
> >
> > Is 75 ohm CATV-type RG-6 (F-6) coax available where you live? That's what I
> > use on 160m to feed my inverted-L that is quite a distance from the
> > operating position. I buy Commscope quad-shield flooded (buryable) F-6 with
> > CCS conductor and a bonded inner shield in 1000' spools off eBay. I even
> > use F connectors at 1500 watts (as do other hams). Neither the coax nor the
> > F connectors get the least bit warm, even after several minutes of key-down
> > at 1500 watts.
> >
> > The loss of RG-6 is about the same as RG-213. And it will handle over 3000
> > watts all day long in the hot sun.
> >
> > 73, Mike
> > www.w0btu.com
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 18:48:51 -0700
> > From: Jim Brown <jim at audiosystemsgroup.com>
> > To: topband at contesting.com
> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder
> > line.
> > Message-ID: <535C6203.1070202 at audiosystemsgroup.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > On 4/26/2014 6:17 PM, Mike Waters wrote:
> > > The loss of RG-6 is about the same as RG-213.
> >
> > Only in an advertising brochure for the RG-6. On 160M, loss is all due
> > to copper, and there's LOT more copper in RG213 than in any RG6 cables
> > I've seen. Remember -- the question was about 1,000 ft.
> >
> > As to the suggestion of 75 ohm CATV coax -- it should work fine if
> > anything fairly large diameter is available at low cost. In the US, I've
> > heard that partial spools are often thrown in the trash by CATV
> > companies who don't want to deal with those shorter lengths. That may or
> > may not be true in Norway, where LA7THA lives. And even if he could find
> > this hard line, he would likely need to make several splices, and the
> > connectors could be expensive.
> >
> > 1,000 ft of the best RG8 - RG213 cables I know of will burn a bit less
> > than 2 dB on topband, which is a LOT more than I would like to throw
> > away on 160M. N6RK's suggestion is about 1.7 dB better than that.
> >
> > 73, Jim K9YC
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 9
> > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 22:21:07 -0500
> > From: Mike Waters <mikewate at gmail.com>
> > To: topband <topband at contesting.com>
> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder
> > line.
> > Message-ID:
> > <CA+FxYXhMW=VqPR+C3BVmFM47XmvsRbdZsyut9v925qnpOUCsTQ at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > You're right about the loss being all in the copper center conductor, Jim.
> >
> > I based that statement on a graph that Owen Duffy had on the old
> > vk1od.netsite for solid center conductor. Perhaps I looked at it
> > wrong, but I don't
> > think so.
> >
> > There were two charts, one for loss and the other for power handling
> > capability. Maybe I have them confused.
> >
> > However, I did look at Commscope's data sheet. I forget all the details,
> > but their loss specs at MF looked really good.
> >
> > 73, Mike
> > www.w0btu.com
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 8:48 PM, Jim Brown <jim at audiosystemsgroup.com>wrote:
> >
> > > On 4/26/2014 6:17 PM, Mike Waters wrote:
> > >
> > >> The loss of RG-6 is about the same as RG-213.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Only in an advertising brochure for the RG-6. On 160M, loss is all due to
> > > copper, and there's LOT more copper in RG213 than in any RG6 cables I've
> > > seen.
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 10
> > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 23:47:05 -0400
> > From: "k1fz" <k1fz at myfairpoint.net>
> > To: "Mike Waters" <mikewate at gmail.com>, "topband"
> > <topband at contesting.com>
> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder
> > line.
> > Message-ID: <FBE65F66B48143B08EB182640ED2D9F7 at k1fzPC>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > reply-type=original
> >
> >
> > A calibrated dummy load wattmeter at the far end of the cable can be a real
> > eye opener. Power loss distributed 1000 feet would not result in much
> > warming.
> >
> > 73
> > Bruce-K1FZ
> > www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mike Waters" <mikewate at gmail.com>
> > To: "topband" <topband at contesting.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 11:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line.
> >
> >
> > > You're right about the loss being all in the copper center conductor, Jim.
> > >
> > > I based that statement on a graph that Owen Duffy had on the old
> > > vk1od.netsite for solid center conductor. Perhaps I looked at it
> > > wrong, but I don't
> > > think so.
> > >
> > > There were two charts, one for loss and the other for power handling
> > > capability. Maybe I have them confused.
> > >
> > > However, I did look at Commscope's data sheet. I forget all the details,
> > > but their loss specs at MF looked really good.
> > >
> > > 73, Mike
> > > www.w0btu.com
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 8:48 PM, Jim Brown
> > > <jim at audiosystemsgroup.com>wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 4/26/2014 6:17 PM, Mike Waters wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> The loss of RG-6 is about the same as RG-213.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Only in an advertising brochure for the RG-6. On 160M, loss is all due to
> > >> copper, and there's LOT more copper in RG213 than in any RG6 cables I've
> > >> seen.
> > >>
> > > _________________
> > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 11
> > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 00:00:23 -0700
> > From: Jim Brown <jim at audiosystemsgroup.com>
> > To: topband at contesting.com
> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder
> > line.
> > Message-ID: <535CAB07.2050900 at audiosystemsgroup.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > On 4/26/2014 8:21 PM, Mike Waters wrote:
> > > You're right about the loss being all in the copper center conductor, Jim.
> >
> > AND in the shield. One of the things that gives bigger coax lower loss
> > is that skin effect has the greater diameter of the shield to work with.
> >
> > It's important to realize that "RG6" and "RG213" are no longer
> > specifications for the cable that we buy. There are, for example,
> > several dozen RG6s in the Belden catalog, many very different from each
> > other. Ditto for RG8, RG11, RG58, RG59, RG213, etc. You've got to look
> > at the mfr data sheets to find the real specs.
> >
> > Example -- go to the Belden website and compare 9212, 8213, 9913,
> > 9913UF. Very different construction, very different loss
> > characteristics. All "RG11" (although I've seen 9212 described as RG11
> > in older catalogs and RG6 in at least one newer one). I've got a big
> > spool of 9212, and it's slightly smaller than most RG11, but a lot
> > bigger than any RG6 I've ever seen.
> >
> > I haven't seen Owen's charts, but there's a good chance they're out of
> > date in that respect.
> >
> > For cables of approximately the same o.d. a pretty good determinant of
> > loss is DCR of the shield and center combined, because resistance at RF
> > is that DCR multiplied by skin effect. Cables with Cu clad Al, like
> > LMR400, are an exception. By the time you hit 2 MHz, it's equivalent to
> > solid copper. But NOT for Cu clad steel -- it doesn't get close to to
> > solid Cu for another octave or two. (an octave is double the frequency).
> >
> > There's more detail about this in k9yc.com/Coax-Stubs.pdf
> >
> > 73, Jim K9YC
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 12
> > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 06:36:22 -0400
> > From: "Bill & Liz" <magoo at isp.ca>
> > To: <topband at contesting.com>
> > Subject: Topband: 1000 ft Hardline
> > Message-ID: <E949F8D02FB44A25B9AB70098FC686B7 at BILLMAINPC>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Cable TV companies up this way have not used 75 ohm hardline for many years and several have large inventories in storage awaiting disposal. I acquired two nearly full reels for free: one buryable 5/8? and the other non-buryable . Each reel had about 1500-2,000 ft on it and the cable is now used in feeding both my TX antennas and Beverages located from 250-600 ft away from the house.
> >
> > The cable is available and probably free for the asking in your area too.
> >
> > Bill VE3CSK
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 13
> > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 10:44:39 -0400
> > From: "Carl" <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>
> > To: "Mike Waters" <mikewate at gmail.com>, "topband"
> > <topband at contesting.com>
> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder
> > line.
> > Message-ID: <F6B18B1EB7ED42A4A87AFC73474B8616 at computer1>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > reply-type=original
> >
> > Hardline doesnt get chewed Mike; I run 750' of 1/2" CATV on the ground to
> > the Beverage hub. That was after flooded RG-11 and RG-6 got destroyed during
> > a few winter months when the critters were hungry.
> >
> > Not a nibble in the past 24 years.
> >
> > Carl
> > KM1H
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mike Waters" <mikewate at gmail.com>
> > To: "topband" <topband at contesting.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 9:17 PM
> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line.
> >
> >
> > > Hardline for 160 meters?
> > >
> > > I've mostly used hardline where I really needed it, like back when I was
> > > doing weak signal work on the low end of 144 MHz.
> > >
> > > Is 75 ohm CATV-type RG-6 (F-6) coax available where you live? That's what
> > > I
> > > use on 160m to feed my inverted-L that is quite a distance from the
> > > operating position. I buy Commscope quad-shield flooded (buryable) F-6
> > > with
> > > CCS conductor and a bonded inner shield in 1000' spools off eBay. I even
> > > use F connectors at 1500 watts (as do other hams). Neither the coax nor
> > > the
> > > F connectors get the least bit warm, even after several minutes of
> > > key-down
> > > at 1500 watts.
> > >
> > > The loss of RG-6 is about the same as RG-213. And it will handle over 3000
> > > watts all day long in the hot sun.
> > >
> > > 73, Mike
> > > www.w0btu.com
> > > _________________
> > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> > >
> > >
> > > -----
> > > No virus found in this message.
> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > Version: 2014.0.4570 / Virus Database: 3920/7401 - Release Date: 04/26/14
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Topband mailing list
> > Topband at contesting.com
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Topband Digest, Vol 136, Issue 21
> > ****************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 00:18:13 +0000
> From: David Michael Gaytko // WD4KPD <wd4kpd at suddenlink.net>
> To: "topband at contesting.com" <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Topband: 160m sked
> Message-ID: <535EEFC5.3040507 at suddenlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> well guys, now that you mention it.
>
> it sure would be a treat to complete 160m WAS this season.
>
> i would gladly do a qso with you if you live in KL7 and KH6 via
> jt65/jt9. on 1838kc any time or day you desire.
> have some QRO if necessary with a fair antenna setup.
>
> at your pleasure gents !
>
> david/wd4kpd
>
> --
> When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature?s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
>
>
> A revolution is good for the soul of a nation.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 09:59:44 -0400
> From: "k1fz" <k1fz at myfairpoint.net>
> To: "Carl" <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>, "Mike Waters" <mikewate at gmail.com>,
> "topband" <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder
> line.
> Message-ID: <9FBC9CB708504E34B072B8003B5B87E5 at k1fzPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
>
> Heating is not a good guide for long coax runs. One watt of heating, in one
> foot of length, would hardly be detectable. Multiply times 1000 feet and a
> kilowatt of power is lost.
>
> The same logic not to use small diameter house wiring applies, The amount
> of current through the wire needs to be considered.
>
> 73
> Bruce-K1FZ
> www.qsl.net/k1fz/beveragenotes.html
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Waters" <mikewate at gmail.com>
> To: "topband" <topband at contesting.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 9:17 PM
> Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line.
>
>
> Hardline for 160 meters?
>
> I've mostly used hardline where I really needed it, like back when I was
> doing weak signal work on the low end of 144 MHz.
>
> Is 75 ohm CATV-type RG-6 (F-6) coax available where you live? That's what
> I use on 160m to feed my inverted-L that is quite a distance from the
> operating position. I buy Commscope quad-shield flooded (buryable) F-6
> with CCS conductor and a bonded inner shield in 1000' spools off eBay. I
> even
> use F connectors at 1500 watts (as do other hams). Neither the coax nor
> the F connectors get the least bit warm, even after several minutes of
> key-down at 1500 watts.
>
> The loss of RG-6 is about the same as RG-213. And it will handle over 3000
> watts all day long in the hot sun.
>
> 73, Mike
> www.w0btu.com
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
>
> -----
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 11:00:01 -0400
> From: Kenneth Silverman <kenny.k2kw at gmail.com>
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder
> lin
> Message-ID:
> <CAKw2SdwrFmEAFLs4nC4jDYuAvqbGQpa4a_JJ-9a8iK7pz-Pa_A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Rune,
>
> Back in 1997 N6BV and I did some testing using "ladder line" (not the real
> 600 ohm stuff) and some 9:1 baluns on each end. We were looking at a site
> in YV where the beach was about 1000' from the hotel room. We tested the
> following:
> - loss in back to back baluns
> - loss in 100' of ladder line and baluns on each end
>
> We tested 160 to 10m. We lost the data but I seem to remember the total
> loss on 80/160 with 1000' of line was negligible. Maybe in the 2 dB range
> on 10m with 1000' of ladder line.
>
> A few of us went to the YV location to run the IARU contest with the 1000'
> run of ladder line, using a single vertical on the beach. The system
> worked well, except when there was rain (varying SWR), or coconuts and palm
> fronds fell and broke the line.
>
> I just talked to N6BV and he said the ARRL Labratory recently did some
> careful measurements on matched-line losses for open-wire line for input to
> Dean's TLW program. There is a new executable that contains the algorithms
> for loss computation.
>
> Good luck, Kenny K2KW
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 15:32:07 +0000
> From: "Shoppa, Tim" <tshoppa at wmata.com>
> To: Kenneth Silverman <kenny.k2kw at gmail.com>, "topband at contesting.com"
> <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Topband: Ladder line vs coax loss epiphany
> Message-ID:
> <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BB72FD83D at JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> It took me literally decades to realize this, but the low ladder line losses that show up in the ARRL graphs are not because ladder line is magical. I had been reading many articles in QST, and on the web, that made it seem like ladder line was magical this way. Really, for decades I did not understand why ladder line had so much less loss than comparable-copper coax.
>
> It's because ladder line is used at 450 or 600 ohm impedance, so it of course has one tenth the resistive losses of 50 ohm coax built with similar amount of copper.
>
> There a similar (but smaller) advantage to 75 ohm coax vs 52 ohm coax.
>
> Tim N3QE
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Silverman
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 11:00 AM
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder lin
>
> Rune,
>
> Back in 1997 N6BV and I did some testing using "ladder line" (not the real
> 600 ohm stuff) and some 9:1 baluns on each end. We were looking at a site in YV where the beach was about 1000' from the hotel room. We tested the
> following:
> - loss in back to back baluns
> - loss in 100' of ladder line and baluns on each end
>
> We tested 160 to 10m. We lost the data but I seem to remember the total loss on 80/160 with 1000' of line was negligible. Maybe in the 2 dB range on 10m with 1000' of ladder line.
>
> A few of us went to the YV location to run the IARU contest with the 1000'
> run of ladder line, using a single vertical on the beach. The system worked well, except when there was rain (varying SWR), or coconuts and palm fronds fell and broke the line.
>
> I just talked to N6BV and he said the ARRL Labratory recently did some careful measurements on matched-line losses for open-wire line for input to Dean's TLW program. There is a new executable that contains the algorithms for loss computation.
>
> Good luck, Kenny K2KW
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 08:49:59 -0700
> From: "Milt -- N5IA" <n5ia at zia-connection.com>
> To: "k1fz" <k1fz at myfairpoint.net>, "Carl" <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>, "Mike
> Waters" <mikewate at gmail.com>, "topband" <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder
> line.
> Message-ID: <358E8E0687EA4304A8AD07DD7A46914F at MiltVostro2010>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> Bigger is most times Better. Especially when Big is the correct value.
>
> For my 160 Meter, 1/4 WL vertical, which is more than 400 feet from my
> operating position, I use 1/2" CATV hardline X 2.
>
> Since the feed point impedance of the vertical measures ~ 39 Ohms, I
> parallel two of the 75 Ohm cables for a near perfect match to the antenna.
>
> The 420 foot long run of paralleled cables dampens the slight mismatch
> between the presented impedance of 37.5 Ohms and the desired 50 Ohms for the
> amplifier such that the Alpha does not light a single reflected power
> segment from 1.800 to 1.880.
>
> The calculated loss is a mere 0.2%. The proof is in the pudding. It works
> stupendously well.
>
> 73 de Milt, N5IA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: k1fz
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 6:59 AM
> To: Carl ; Mike Waters ; topband
> Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line.
>
>
> Heating is not a good guide for long coax runs. One watt of heating, in one
> foot of length, would hardly be detectable. Multiply times 1000 feet and a
> kilowatt of power is lost.
>
> The same logic not to use small diameter house wiring applies, The amount
> of current through the wire needs to be considered.
>
> 73
> Bruce-K1FZ
> www.qsl.net/k1fz/beveragenotes.html
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Waters" <mikewate at gmail.com>
> To: "topband" <topband at contesting.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 9:17 PM
> Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line.
>
>
> Hardline for 160 meters?
>
> I've mostly used hardline where I really needed it, like back when I was
> doing weak signal work on the low end of 144 MHz.
>
> Is 75 ohm CATV-type RG-6 (F-6) coax available where you live? That's what
> I use on 160m to feed my inverted-L that is quite a distance from the
> operating position. I buy Commscope quad-shield flooded (buryable) F-6
> with CCS conductor and a bonded inner shield in 1000' spools off eBay. I
> even
> use F connectors at 1500 watts (as do other hams). Neither the coax nor
> the F connectors get the least bit warm, even after several minutes of
> key-down at 1500 watts.
>
> The loss of RG-6 is about the same as RG-213. And it will handle over 3000
> watts all day long in the hot sun.
>
> 73, Mike
> www.w0btu.com
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4570 / Virus Database: 3931/7413 - Release Date: 04/29/14
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Topband mailing list
> Topband at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Topband Digest, Vol 136, Issue 22
> ****************************************
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