Topband: Modeling the proverbial "vertical on a beach"

Yuri Blanarovich k3bu at optimum.net
Tue Aug 12 16:50:33 EDT 2014 

Oh, here comes the "guru" again. :-)

Unnecessary debate? We are talking about experiences and RESULTS of 
comparing normal in land "ground" effect vs. salt water beach or 
marshes. We are commenting on the benefit of immediate proximity of salt 
water to antenna performance, especially on low angles.
K3BU and others found out that it is not "feeling," but S-meter readings 
in order of 10 - 20 dB (RX and TX!) in favor of salty beach. It is like 
driving inside into the amplifier

There is really no debate or argument. Anyone can verify that by driving 
mobile around the ocean front.
Team vertical N2KW put the numbers on the effect - world high in CQ WW 
with bunch of "fishing rods" on the beach from 6Y5. Anyone interested in 
finding about the effect or using it can do it and testify themselves. I 
did it from the Cape Hatteras and was amazed. Operating as N2EE/4 from 
Cape Hatteras, NC in CQ WW SSB 2000 it is still all time US 10m LP 
record.

For those not knowing about the  effect, it is an eye opener, for those 
knowing or experiencing it, there is no argument. Those who do not 
believe it, can get into their mobile and drive around watching the 
S-meter and putting the numbers with two decimal places to it. Those 
going on expeditions to places with oceanfront can multiply their 
results by placing the antennas close to the salt water as others 
commented.

The best way to take advantage of the salty effect is to use phased or 
parasitic verticals, or vertically polarized beams (Yagi or Quad) about 
half wave up. No need for high towers, waste of using horizontal beams.

Yuri, K3BU.us
www.MVmanor.com




> By the way, my intention is not to make anyone feel bad, but to just 
> to remind people that an impression or feeling is not confirmation. 
> Impressions really get us off track, and lead to unnecessary debates 
> and arguments.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom W8JI" To: Sent: Tuesday, 
> August 12, 2014 11:01 AM
> Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial "vertical on a beach"
>
>
>> Just to set the record straight, I have no doubt saltwater helps 
>> propagation at most angles.
>>
>> I probably did not make my point very well. My point is, with no 
>> comparison, an "impression" or "feeling" is not convincing data. It 
>> doesn't mean a thing.
>>
>> I think this is a pretty simple concept. Not having proper 
>> comparative data is what allows all sorts of misplaced voodoo 
>> nonsense, like 360 radials is worth 6 dB.
>>
>> There is a huge  difference between the validity of an A-B comparison 
>> and running away with a feeling.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl" To: "Yuri Blanarovich" ; 
>> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 9:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial "vertical on a beach"
>>
>>
>>> There have been reports of verticals and salt water almost as long 
>>> as there has been radio. It helps horizontal antennas also.
>>>
>>> Ive operated for enough years aboard USN ships to know it is often a 
>>> band opener and have to laugh at a couple of petty comments. The 
>>> difference between operating shipboard and MARS/ham club stations 
>>> was often a couple of hours and even with big yagis there was no 
>>> comparison. Go back to the ship tied up at the pier or at anchor and 
>>> the band was wide open again and again, and again.
>>>
>>> After awhile you learn to ignore the nattering nabobs of negativism.
>>>
>>> Carl
>>> KM1H
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yuri Blanarovich" To: Sent: 
>>> Monday, August 11, 2014 9:30 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial "vertical on a beach"
>>>
>>>
>>>> One pony needs to get into one drag radio car and drive around the 
>>>> ocean front, over the bridges, back over the land and watch the 
>>>> S-meter and listen to the bands. Observant would see 10 - 20 dB 
>>>> difference in signal levels in "lousy" mobile, especially on low 
>>>> angle propagation.
>>>>
>>>> Examples: Driving around Sydney, NS and listening to Disney 1670 AM 
>>>> in NJ - no signals over land, full quieting solid signal while 
>>>> driving on bridge over salt water.
>>>> While contesting as N2EE from Cape Hatteras, NC on 10m in contest, 
>>>> was told by ZS6EZ to be the first NA he heard, with vertical on the 
>>>> beach.
>>>> Results of "Team Vertical" speak for themselves.
>>>> Some of us do know. The reverse beacons testing can verify or 
>>>> legitimize modeling program's "calculated guessing".
>>>>
>>>> Yuri, K3BU.us
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 11:02 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My point is if no one else is on, we really don't how other 
>>>>> signals
>>>> would be. It's like a drag race with just one car, or a pony show 
>>>> with one horse.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hardy Landskov" To: "Tom W8JI" 
>>>>> ; "TopBand List" Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 9:08 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial "vertical on a 
>>>>> beach"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom,
>>>>>> I was totallly not expecting any station from that direction, 
>>>>>> just thought I'd work a few locals with high incident angles 
>>>>>> before Sunset here. Then I heard the 6Y2 guys and it was amazing. 
>>>>>> He was the only station--no KV4FZ, NP4A, etc and certainly no EU 
>>>>>> at our time. Made me a believer in beach verticals.
>>>>>> 73 N7RT
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom W8JI" To: "TopBand List" 
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 5:20 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial "vertical on a 
>>>>>> beach"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How was his signal compared to someone from a similar heading 
>>>>>>> and distance at the same time who was not on the beach?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hardy Landskov" To: "Guy 
>>>>>>> Olinger K2AV" ; "Richard Fry"
>>>>>>> Cc: "TopBand List" Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 7:35 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial "vertical on a 
>>>>>>> beach"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just an observation to all:
>>>>>>>> When Tom, N6BT went to Jaimaca and operated 6Y2J (I think was 
>>>>>>>> the call) with verticals on the beach I was blown away. I heard 
>>>>>>>> them 2 hours before Sunset here on 160....nuff said. The proof 
>>>>>>>> is in the pudding.
>>>>>>>> 73 N7RT
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Olinger K2AV" To: 
>>>>>>>> "Richard Fry" Cc: "TopBand List" Sent: Saturday, August 09, 
>>>>>>>> 2014 8:35 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial "vertical on a 
>>>>>>>> beach"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just to mention that the prior opinion is controversial and 
>>>>>>>>> not universally
>>>>>>>>> agreed upon. Nor to date has anyone surfaced with actual 
>>>>>>>>> measurements made
>>>>>>>>> at the distances (25 to 50 km) and with span of altitudes (0 
>>>>>>>>> to 10 km) to
>>>>>>>>> either prove or disprove either side.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It remains unproven modelling from NEC at those distances 
>>>>>>>>> either way. This
>>>>>>>>> situation may, alas, persist this way, because the precise 
>>>>>>>>> subject
>>>>>>>>> resolution appears to be without benefit to any commercial 
>>>>>>>>> interest and
>>>>>>>>> therefore without funds to pay for some pretty expensive 
>>>>>>>>> experimenting
>>>>>>>>> involving precision measurements from aircraft.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Additionally, there is considerable suspicion that moving from 
>>>>>>>>> LF to MF in
>>>>>>>>> this general subject involves a ground modal change of some 
>>>>>>>>> sort that would
>>>>>>>>> render 50x10 km measurments at 0.5 or 1 MHz unlike those at 2 
>>>>>>>>> MHz,
>>>>>>>>> rendering commercial measurements at low and possibly high BC 
>>>>>>>>> of no value
>>>>>>>>> for extrapolation to ham use.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Arguments on both sides remain basically intuitive. I have 
>>>>>>>>> "reasonable"
>>>>>>>>> arguments to BOTH concur with Richard AND to not. NEC near 
>>>>>>>>> field
>>>>>>>>> calculations over sea water at 50 km follow Richard's 
>>>>>>>>> assertions, and the
>>>>>>>>> same over "average" ground does not. The model clearly thinks 
>>>>>>>>> that 50 km
>>>>>>>>> over most types of ground slowly dissipates low angles 
>>>>>>>>> resulting in the
>>>>>>>>> controversial "notch" in low angle elevation patterns.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So NEC based modelling cannot be used as a proof text to 
>>>>>>>>> decide an argument
>>>>>>>>> NEC has with itself.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 73, Guy K2AV.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 7:23 PM, Richard Fry  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just to note that the low-angle radiation produced by 
>>>>>>>>>> monopoles is not
>>>>>>>>>> accurately shown by a NEC model/study that does not include 
>>>>>>>>>> the surface
>>>>>>>>>> wave, regardless of whether one or two ground-plane media are 
>>>>>>>>>> specified in
>>>>>>>>>> the model.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Below is a link to a NEC study of the low-angle fields of a 
>>>>>>>>>> monopole
>>>>>>>>>> __including the surface wave__ for three values of earth 
>>>>>>>>>> conductivity
>>>>>>>>>> ranging from extremely good to very poor.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The curves there all show maximum relative field in the 
>>>>>>>>>> horizontal plane.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If the surface wave had not been included in these studies 
>>>>>>>>>> then all of
>>>>>>>>>> those fields would have a zero value in the horizontal plane, 
>>>>>>>>>> and reduced
>>>>>>>>>> fields at low angles just above the horizontal plane.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Reality is that radiation leaving the monopole at elevation 
>>>>>>>>>> angles of at
>>>>>>>>>> least 5 degrees decays at a 1/r rate.  Therefore that 
>>>>>>>>>> radiation is a space
>>>>>>>>>> wave which propagates in a ~ straight line to reach the 
>>>>>>>>>> ionosphere, where
>>>>>>>>>> (with suitable conditions) it can return to the earth as a 
>>>>>>>>>> skywave.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> NEC analyses of a vertical monopole of 5/8-lambda and less, 
>>>>>>>>>> and not
>>>>>>>>>> including the fields of the NEC surface wave do not recognize 
>>>>>>>>>> the radiation
>>>>>>>>>> sector capable of producing the greatest single-hop skywave 
>>>>>>>>>> service range
>>>>>>>>>> that can be provided by that monopole.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> http://s20.postimg.org/9xqgzu9d9/Monopole_Low_Angle_Radiation.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> R. Fry
>>>>>>>>>> _________________
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>>>>>>>>>> http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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