From mikewate at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 06:43:48 2014 From: mikewate at gmail.com (Mike Waters) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 05:43:48 -0500 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? Message-ID: Is anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X on 160m? It just caught my attention. Looks like a great tool to see if any DX paths are open, and motivate one to call CQ DX when they are. WSPR home page: http://www.physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/wspr.html Who's on, propagation map - Text: http://wsprnet.org/drupal/wsprnet/activity - Graphical: http://wsprnet.org/drupal/wsprnet/map . Select 160 meters below the map. Searching the Topband reflector archives for the past year shows nothing. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com From jbwolf at comcast.net Mon Sep 1 11:31:13 2014 From: jbwolf at comcast.net (James Wolf) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 11:31:13 -0400 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005d01cfc5f9$c41801f0$4c4805d0$@comcast.net> Mike, I have not yet experimented with WSPR on Topband, but I think if enough stations were activated, it could be a great way to increase the awareness of path openings and propagation information across the season. I'd be on-board for the wide use of WSPR for this purpose. Jim - KR9U -----Original Message----- From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mike Waters Sent: Monday, September 01, 2014 6:44 AM To: topband Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? Is anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X on 160m? It just caught my attention. Looks like a great tool to see if any DX paths are open, and motivate one to call CQ DX when they are. WSPR home page: http://www.physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/wspr.html Who's on, propagation map - Text: http://wsprnet.org/drupal/wsprnet/activity - Graphical: http://wsprnet.org/drupal/wsprnet/map . Select 160 meters below the map. Searching the Topband reflector archives for the past year shows nothing. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From larry at w7iuv.com Mon Sep 1 11:36:38 2014 From: larry at w7iuv.com (Larry) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2014 08:36:38 -0700 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> WSPR and WSPRnet.org are fantastic tools. Used properly, they make the Reverse Beacon network look like a kids toy. I have used the WSPR system to watch propagation and evaluate both TX and RX antenna systems on several bands. On 160 meters, using a "gold standard" partner station to compare against and averaging data taken over a week long period, I have been able to resolve differences in station performance within a fraction of a dB. I am currently using WSPR and WSPRnet.org on a 24/7 basis on 630 meters. I, like many others, got tired of waiting on the ARRL to get off their collective lazy political butts and sent in my 60 bux for my experimental license. So far this summer, with about 10 watts ERP, I have been decoded all over North America and have been heard in ZL. Easy coast guys have been decoded in EU this summer, and this winter will be quite exciting. Using WSPR, and the ON4KST logger for 630/2200 meters, we can watch prop and run skeds for two way digital and CW QSO's when the time is right. We are evaluating both TX and RX antenna systems on a continuous basis. On 160, since WSPR has something like a 20 dB advantage over CW, you can run 5 watts 24/7 without straining your TX or causing undue QRM. Also WSPR is extremely narrow band. On each band 2200 mtrs and at least through 23 cm, there is a 200 Hz wide piece of spectrum used by ALL the stations worldwide who are participating. If you are interested in propagation and/or station performance evaluations, you really need to look into the WSPR system.. 73, Larry - W7IUV / WH2XGP DN07dg - central WA http://w7iuv.com On 01-Sep-14 3:43 AM, Mike Waters wrote: > Is anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X on 160m? It just caught my attention. Looks > like a great tool to see if any DX paths are open, and motivate one to call > CQ DX when they are. > > WSPR home page: > http://www.physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/wspr.html > > Who's on, propagation map > - Text: > http://wsprnet.org/drupal/wsprnet/activity > - Graphical: > http://wsprnet.org/drupal/wsprnet/map . Select 160 meters below the map. > > Searching the Topband reflector archives for the past year shows nothing. > > 73, Mike > www.w0btu.com > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From s53r at hotmail.com Mon Sep 1 13:02:35 2014 From: s53r at hotmail.com (Robert Kasca) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 17:02:35 +0000 Subject: Topband: Interferrence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have been living in Rome for two years now and 80 and 160 remain a problem. With my vertical system i don't spend much time calling anyone - as long as I hear them, which is a major problem! Different wires did not help so the only solution is to remove the attached interference if i could figure out where it comes from, or what its nature is. I have recorded the interference that makes it really bad. Mostly on low bands but it affects everything depending on the band conditions and TOD, but somehow gets manageable above 20mtrs. Attached is the recording if anyone has an idea where this comes from. I have a very high-power line some 200mtrs away but the periodical, "roller coaster" nature of the interference probably excludes that. 73 Robert, I0/S53R From n5ia at zia-connection.com Mon Sep 1 13:06:16 2014 From: n5ia at zia-connection.com (Milt -- N5IA) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 10:06:16 -0700 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> Message-ID: Larry, Do you care to elaborate on the setup and procedure which you are using? Inquiring minds are interested, in particular for Topband. 73 de Milt, N5IA -----Original Message----- From: Larry Sent: Monday, September 01, 2014 8:36 AM To: topband at contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? ----SNIP---- I have used the WSPR system to watch propagation and evaluate both TX and RX antenna systems on several bands. On 160 meters, using a "gold standard" partner station to compare against and averaging data taken over a week long period, I have been able to resolve differences in station performance within a fraction of a dB. ----SNIP--- 73, Larry - W7IUV / WH2XGP DN07dg - central WA http://w7iuv.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4745 / Virus Database: 4015/8137 - Release Date: 09/01/14 From larry at w7iuv.com Mon Sep 1 13:32:48 2014 From: larry at w7iuv.com (Larry) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2014 10:32:48 -0700 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> Message-ID: <5404ADC0.1060802@w7iuv.com> Milt, Are you familiar with WSPR, it's setup, operation, and it's relationship to WSPRnet? If not, then details won't help much. In a nutshell, it involves collecting data. Thousands, perhaps even tens of thousands of data points for both the station under evaluation and the "gold standard" station. After that it is just an exercise in database management and analysis. I won't go into details on the list as few will be interested and I refuse to give the self appointed experts another topic to debate endlessly. 73, Larry - W7IUV / WH2XGP On 01-Sep-14 10:06 AM, Milt -- N5IA wrote: > Larry, > > Do you care to elaborate on the setup and procedure which you are using? > > Inquiring minds are interested, in particular for Topband. > > 73 de Milt, N5IA From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Mon Sep 1 13:37:46 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2014 10:37:46 -0700 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> Message-ID: <5404AEEA.7090904@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Mon,9/1/2014 8:36 AM, Larry wrote: > I have used the WSPR system to watch propagation and evaluate both TX > and RX antenna systems on several bands. On 160 meters, using a "gold > standard" partner station to compare against and averaging data taken > over a week long period, I have been able to resolve differences in > station performance within a fraction of a dB. That's very encouraging, Larry. I've wanted to do exactly that, comparing two of my 160M antennas to each other, but didn't think there was critical mass in the form of others using WSPR on the band. Based on your results, I'm encouraged to move ahead with it. 73, Jim K9YC From larry at w7iuv.com Mon Sep 1 13:57:11 2014 From: larry at w7iuv.com (Larry) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2014 10:57:11 -0700 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: <5404AEEA.7090904@audiosystemsgroup.com> References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> <5404AEEA.7090904@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <5404B377.3040506@w7iuv.com> Jim, Participation varies. At the moment there are more active WSPR stations on 630 meters than on 160! But as we roll into winter there will more show up. It is important to remember that this is a long term project, I.E. you need to set up and monitor for hours, days, even weeks to really get a feel for activity as many only use the system for a few hours at a time. You are correct in that a "critical mass" is important but it turns out that fewer stations than you might expect are needed to obtain useful data. The most important thing to remember is that you absolutely need a second station as a partner in order to eliminate propagation effects. Otherwise you are not comparing two antennas, but just sampling prop. The other thing to remember is that you need a statistically significant number of data points which will require a minimum of three days/nights to a week of sampling. Larry - W7IUV / WH2XGP On 01-Sep-14 10:37 AM, Jim Brown wrote: > On Mon,9/1/2014 8:36 AM, Larry wrote: >> I have used the WSPR system to watch propagation and evaluate both TX >> and RX antenna systems on several bands. On 160 meters, using a "gold >> standard" partner station to compare against and averaging data taken >> over a week long period, I have been able to resolve differences in >> station performance within a fraction of a dB. > > That's very encouraging, Larry. I've wanted to do exactly that, > comparing two of my 160M antennas to each other, but didn't think there > was critical mass in the form of others using WSPR on the band. Based on > your results, I'm encouraged to move ahead with it. > > 73, Jim K9YC > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From mikewate at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 14:00:27 2014 From: mikewate at gmail.com (Mike Waters) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 13:00:27 -0500 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the input. I have WSPR 2.12 installed and working on 30 meters in RX-only mode. I see it's uploading my spots to wsprnet.org. If all goes well, tonight I'll switch to 160. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Mon Sep 1 14:33:42 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:33:42 -0700 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: <5404B377.3040506@w7iuv.com> References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> <5404AEEA.7090904@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404B377.3040506@w7iuv.com> Message-ID: <5404BC06.7040209@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Mon,9/1/2014 10:57 AM, Larry wrote: > The most important thing to remember is that you absolutely need a > second station as a partner in order to eliminate propagation effects. > Otherwise you are not comparing two antennas, but just sampling prop. > > The other thing to remember is that you need a statistically > significant number of data points which will require a minimum of > three days/nights to a week of sampling. Yes, I strongly agree with both of these points. Indeed, I've preached them. :) 73, Jim K9YC From mikewate at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 15:07:09 2014 From: mikewate at gmail.com (Mike Waters) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 14:07:09 -0500 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: <5404BC06.7040209@audiosystemsgroup.com> References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> <5404AEEA.7090904@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404B377.3040506@w7iuv.com> <5404BC06.7040209@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: How well does WSPR work when the band is full of static crashes? If so, is 100 watts too much with 20 over 9 QRN? Just trying to learn. I have it working both RX and TX (5W) on 30 meters right now. :-) 73, Mike www.w0btu.com From jlangridge at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 1 15:26:28 2014 From: jlangridge at sbcglobal.net (John Langridge) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 12:26:28 -0700 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> <5404AEEA.7090904@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404B377.3040506@w7iuv.com> <5404BC06.7040209@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <1409599588.36039.YahooMailNeo@web181005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Mike, WSPR uses a low baud rate interleving process plus averaging to fight through noisy weak signal condx. The worse thing you can do is run excessive filtering or noise blanking because it can confuse the decoder and in many cases lead to false decodes or no decodes at all. The WSPR algorythm handles those things already and really likes to have a full USB BW to measure from. Anything less will result in errors in S/N data. Most of those WSPR guys on traditional HF are running very QRP. QRO certainly works but you will no doubt raise some eyebrows if you fire up at high power. Its really designed for low power and after some time, you can establishing what S/N you need to accomplish a QSO running X amount of power on CW or whatever mode. On 630-meters for normal, aural CW, that can range from -8 db to -12 db S/N as reported by WSPR. What that really translates to is another story. I suspect on 160-meters the values are quite similar. As Larry has stated, there is a lot of value in this mode in determining up-to-the-minute band condx that can lead to QSO's. That's one of the reasons we use it. It beats blindly CQing for extended periods of time. 73! John KB5NJD / WG2XIQ ________________________________ From: Mike Waters To: topband Sent: Monday, September 1, 2014 2:07 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? How well does WSPR work when the band is full of static crashes? If so, is 100 watts too much with 20 over 9 QRN? Just trying to learn. I have it working both RX and TX (5W) on 30 meters right now. :-) 73, Mike www.w0btu.com _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From larry at w7iuv.com Mon Sep 1 15:30:01 2014 From: larry at w7iuv.com (Larry) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2014 12:30:01 -0700 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> <5404AEEA.7090904@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404B377.3040506@w7iuv.com> <5404BC06.7040209@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <5404C939.8070708@w7iuv.com> Normally, I run 5 or 10 watts TX output on 160 meters depending on the specifics of the particular run. On 30 meters it's kinda dumb to run more than 5 watts out unless your antenna is a light bulb in the basement. I have on occasion run 100 watts on 160 but if you need to do that because of conditions, you are not going to get any meaningful data anyway. WSPR handles QRN well at least until the RX AGC shuts everything down. Remember we are using this on 630 meters and have been all summer. You have no idea what QRN is until you play on the real "topband". (which is soon to loose out to 2200 meters!) Best way to receive WSPR is the same as with all of K1JT's software, turn off ALL DSP functions. Open up the RX bandwidth as far as it will go, 6 kHz is not too much. Use the normal noise blanker with care and discretion. Be very careful about audio levels. Larry - W7IUV / WH2XGP On 01-Sep-14 12:07 PM, Mike Waters wrote: > How well does WSPR work when the band is full of static crashes? If so, is > 100 watts too much with 20 over 9 QRN? Just trying to learn. > > I have it working both RX and TX (5W) on 30 meters right now. :-) > > 73, Mike > www.w0btu.com > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Mon Sep 1 15:38:00 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2014 12:38:00 -0700 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: <5404C939.8070708@w7iuv.com> References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> <5404AEEA.7090904@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404B377.3040506@w7iuv.com> <5404BC06.7040209@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404C939.8070708@w7iuv.com> Message-ID: <5404CB18.6070209@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Mon,9/1/2014 12:30 PM, Larry wrote: > Be very careful about audio levels. Also, use a good A/D converter to get the RX audio into your computer. Several good, inexpensive USB sound cards are listed on my website. Switching from the mic input of my laptop to these units allowed me to reliably decode signals 12 dB deeper into the noise on JT65. http://k9yc.com/USB_Interfaces.pdf 73, Jim K9YC From k4dli at earthlink.net Mon Sep 1 18:25:58 2014 From: k4dli at earthlink.net (Jim Streible) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2014 18:25:58 -0400 Subject: Topband: Warbling Noise around 3513 khz.???? Opinions sought. In-Reply-To: <20140831.120512.15966.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> References: <20140831.120512.15966.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <5404F276.40109@earthlink.net> Val, A little more news. Not only is it on 3513.5 but, it is also on 1/2 that freq at 1756.75. At 1900Z this afternoon I could hear on both frequencies. Same number of signals in the pass band, about 6 or 7, and they seem to be modulated. I was using AM with +/- 6.6 kHz pass band. Later at 2100Z it was only on 3513.5. I haven't tried higher but, may tonight. I don't have any input filters for the Flex to listen below the BC band with any accuracy. Since we are both hearing it, on the coast and here just North of Atlanta, it is either being transmitter or has something to do with the power grid. Maybe Tom, W8JI, can get a good direction on it. I have a problem with my little K9AY, the plug has corroded and I can't change direction right now. If it off the power grid it will be coming from everywhere. Does anyone else hear this signal? 73, Jim K4DLI On 8/31/2014 12:05 PM, Hugh Valentine wrote: > Good Day, Like most I am trying to prepare for Top Band season. I have a mystery noise which Warlbes and slightly shifts Freq. centering around 3513.5 Khz.I can disconnect most everything in house, including Modems, Computers, Fluorescents,TVs, Gadgets and am down to using a 12V battery on the K3, connected to any outside antenna, including RX ant., and can still hear this noise. Anyone experience this type noise around this frequency? And what have you found?Possible Smart meter noise? But it is pretty constant, there all the time, not on and off periodically. About all I can conclude so far.I usually have a pin drop quiet environment here on the island where utilities are underground and want to find the source. Thanks for any comments. ValN4RJ > ____________________________________________________________ > The #1 Worst Carb Ever? > Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar (Don't Eat This!) > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/54034804d5702480440e9st03vuc > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Mon Sep 1 18:33:03 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2014 15:33:03 -0700 Subject: Topband: Warbling Noise around 3513 khz.???? Opinions sought. In-Reply-To: <5404F276.40109@earthlink.net> References: <20140831.120512.15966.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> <5404F276.40109@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5404F41F.1040505@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Mon,9/1/2014 3:25 PM, Jim Streible wrote: > > Since we are both hearing it, on the coast and here just North of > Atlanta, it is either > being transmitter or has something to do with the power grid. The fact that you're hearing a sub-harmonic suggests that it is local and generated by a common appliance, signalling of some sort (a security system?), or by a CATV system common to your areas. 73, Jim K9YC From ww1c at outlook.com Tue Sep 2 02:34:36 2014 From: ww1c at outlook.com (Markku Oksanen) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 06:34:36 +0000 Subject: Topband: Skimmer calibration Message-ID: ALL I have tested RBN / skimmer raw data and Excel with preprocessing with CSVed to confirm station performance after many major CW contests I have been in. In order to see how a station covers a certain target area, I typically take one hour timeslots, one country or in the case us US, one zone to select the RBN listeners and then calculate the averages and variance of RBN measurements. Typically you I try to find some 50-100 measurements / TX station / hour for comparisons. In The outcome is averages varying between 10 to 30 dB and a variance of about 10 dB which is really quite a big number. This variance contains all the differences between RBN listerner station antennas, propagation, QSB etc., however the general grouping of stations to "high performance" (OH8X, OH2BH, OH4A), "good" and "normal" holds quite well if you know what antennas stations have at this end. A high stack is a high stack, always. Although it has been tempting to do, to me it seems to be statistically impossible to confirm much smaller than 3-5 dB difference between stations using this method. This is if you know the variance, number of measurements and the difference between averages of measurements and perform a student's p-test to confirm if the averages are really different or not. The rough groupings hold really well though, difference between normal and high performance stations holds. And I can see where my own signal sits in these groupings. MarkkuWW1C/OG2A/OH2RA From mikewate at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 10:13:22 2014 From: mikewate at gmail.com (Mike Waters) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 09:13:22 -0500 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: <5404CB18.6070209@audiosystemsgroup.com> References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> <5404AEEA.7090904@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404B377.3040506@w7iuv.com> <5404BC06.7040209@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404C939.8070708@w7iuv.com> <5404CB18.6070209@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: Thanks for all the additional advice, Gentlemen. I understand about audio levels, filtering, etc. :-) My sound card (old Creative labs unit, IIRC) interface is just a couple of audio transformers removed from old 56k PCI telephone modems, with some pads and pots. I'll check out your interface PDF, Jim. If anyone runs into issues running WSPR for Windows on Linux (I did), try WSPR 4 for Linux from the svn repo. But if you have any questions about that, better ask now, while I can still remember what all I had to do this AM to get the Linux version running here in Xubuntu 14.04 LTS. I'll try and run WSPR in at least RX/upload spots mode on 160, whenever I can. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com From km1h at jeremy.mv.com Tue Sep 2 10:47:08 2014 From: km1h at jeremy.mv.com (Carl) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 10:47:08 -0400 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> Im going to be needing 500-1000' spools of polyester double braid rope for supporting some more wire antennas in the harsh enviroment up here. The 5/16" is rated at 3400 tensile and the wire will be about 50#. ID likely tension it to about 200-250# to reduce sag Or would real Mil-C-5040H type III (550# ) or type IV (750#) paracord be OK? Its certainly not as strong plus it stretches. That spec was inactivated in 1997 and Ive been unable to find its replacement. I only want to do this once as I aint gettin' no younger! Carl KM1H From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Tue Sep 2 13:06:41 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 10:06:41 -0700 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com> <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> Message-ID: <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Tue,9/2/2014 7:47 AM, Carl wrote: > Im going to be needing 500-1000' spools of polyester double braid rope > for supporting some more wire antennas in the harsh enviroment up > here. The 5/16" is rated at 3400 tensile and the wire will be about > 50#. ID likely tension it to about 200-250# to reduce sag Hi Carl, I'm supporting high dipoles fed by RG11 up 120 ft with the 5/16-in stuff that DX Eng sells. They are run though top-grade pulleys, tied down at the base of one tree, 100# of dry sand at the base of the other tree. The major issue with the rope is wear -- the pulleys must be first grade to avoid abrasion, which WILL eventually break the rope. My longest span is about 250 ft. Something like four years ago, I bought a 500 ft spool of 7/16-in and had the climbers put it on one end. Never got around to doing the other end. They climb every 4-5 years, and each time I have them examine the ropes. So far, no reports of wear. 73, Jim K9YC From richard at karlquist.com Tue Sep 2 15:14:30 2014 From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 12:14:30 -0700 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com> <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> On 9/2/2014 10:06 AM, Jim Brown wrote: > > I'm supporting high dipoles fed by RG11 up 120 ft with the 5/16-in stuff > that DX Eng sells. They are run though top-grade pulleys, tied down at > the base of one tree, 100# of dry sand at the base of the other tree. > The major issue with the rope is wear -- the pulleys must be first grade > to avoid abrasion, which WILL eventually break the rope. > Can anyone recommend some first grade pulleys? I am looking for something bigger than what they have at hardware stores, 3 or 4 inch. Rick N6RK From wrcromwell at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 15:55:21 2014 From: wrcromwell at gmail.com (Bill Cromwell) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 15:55:21 -0400 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com> <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> Message-ID: <540620A9.5040709@gmail.com> One place to look is marine supply stores. Sailors don't like hardware that gnaws on the lines. 73, Bill KU8H On 09/02/2014 03:14 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: > > Can anyone recommend some first grade pulleys? I am looking for > something bigger than what they have at hardware stores, 3 or 4 > inch. > > Rick N6RK > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From Ashton.R.Lee at hotmail.com Tue Sep 2 16:00:27 2014 From: Ashton.R.Lee at hotmail.com (Ashton Lee) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 14:00:27 -0600 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com> <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> Message-ID: If you don?t mind the cost and want the best, Harken marine blocks. On Sep 2, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: > On 9/2/2014 10:06 AM, Jim Brown wrote: >> >> I'm supporting high dipoles fed by RG11 up 120 ft with the 5/16-in stuff >> that DX Eng sells. They are run though top-grade pulleys, tied down at >> the base of one tree, 100# of dry sand at the base of the other tree. >> The major issue with the rope is wear -- the pulleys must be first grade >> to avoid abrasion, which WILL eventually break the rope. >> > > Can anyone recommend some first grade pulleys? I am looking for > something bigger than what they have at hardware stores, 3 or 4 > inch. > > Rick N6RK > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From tshoppa at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 16:03:54 2014 From: tshoppa at gmail.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 16:03:54 -0400 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com> <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> Message-ID: I am not using multi-hundred pound counterweights, but only 15 or so pounds. I have been very satisfied with the big-wheel laundry line pulleys from home depot: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-4-in-Clothesline-Pulley-14107/202305420 The local mariners tell me the real place to get Pulleys is the marine supply stores. Tim N3QE On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist < richard at karlquist.com> wrote: > On 9/2/2014 10:06 AM, Jim Brown wrote: > >> >> I'm supporting high dipoles fed by RG11 up 120 ft with the 5/16-in stuff >> that DX Eng sells. They are run though top-grade pulleys, tied down at >> the base of one tree, 100# of dry sand at the base of the other tree. >> The major issue with the rope is wear -- the pulleys must be first grade >> to avoid abrasion, which WILL eventually break the rope. >> >> > Can anyone recommend some first grade pulleys? I am looking for > something bigger than what they have at hardware stores, 3 or 4 > inch. > > Rick N6RK > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From joe at k2uf.com Tue Sep 2 16:09:38 2014 From: joe at k2uf.com (Joe K2UF) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 16:09:38 -0400 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <20140902200858.6D5A4AC8038@mx.contesting.com> I use 3/16 dacron rope to haul my wire antennas to the top of my tower. I don't use pulleys because the real good ones are very expensive. I have a piece of 1-1/2 fiberglass pipe sticking out from the tower about 2-3 feet. I have a stainless steel eyebolt near the end of the pipe and one near the tower. I use the Dacron rope through the eyebolts. I have used this set up for several years and the rope shows no sign of wear. I have a homebrew contraption at the end of the fiberglass pipe that supports the wire antenna when it is in use so the rope does not have to support the weight of the center insulator, choke and 75 feet of feed line. Dacron is great stuff. I am sure some of the engineers out there will say the eyebolt method is bad design, but it works!! 73 Joe K2UF -----Original Message----- From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Brown Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 1:07 PM To: topband at contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions On Tue,9/2/2014 7:47 AM, Carl wrote: > Im going to be needing 500-1000' spools of polyester double braid rope > for supporting some more wire antennas in the harsh enviroment up > here. The 5/16" is rated at 3400 tensile and the wire will be about > 50#. ID likely tension it to about 200-250# to reduce sag Hi Carl, I'm supporting high dipoles fed by RG11 up 120 ft with the 5/16-in stuff that DX Eng sells. They are run though top-grade pulleys, tied down at the base of one tree, 100# of dry sand at the base of the other tree. The major issue with the rope is wear -- the pulleys must be first grade to avoid abrasion, which WILL eventually break the rope. My longest span is about 250 ft. Something like four years ago, I bought a 500 ft spool of 7/16-in and had the climbers put it on one end. Never got around to doing the other end. They climb every 4-5 years, and each time I have them examine the ropes. So far, no reports of wear. 73, Jim K9YC _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4745 / Virus Database: 4015/8142 - Release Date: 09/02/14 From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Tue Sep 2 16:24:45 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 13:24:45 -0700 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com> <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> Message-ID: <5406278D.20501@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Tue,9/2/2014 12:14 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: > Can anyone recommend some first grade pulleys? I am looking for > something bigger than what they have at hardware stores, 3 or 4 > inch. I have two sources. The best are from B&B Small Engine, a vendor here in Santa Cruz that caters to tree climbers. They're pretty expensive -- I think I last paid about $50 each. I just did some searching and found this listing, which appears to be the same pulley at half the cost. The ones I have look like the RP-115. http://www.ropescoursewarehouse.com/catalog1/advancedwebpage.aspx?cg=1168&cd=4&SKUTYPE=202&SKUFLD=SKU&DM=1250&WEBID=914&gclid=CNOxh_Kmw8ACFUiGfgod7zgA6A Here's a page that shows that the sideplates rotate around the axle, so that the rope can be inserted in the middle, not only from an end. http://www.rocknrescue.com/acatalog/CMI_Pulley_Information.pdf http://mammothgear.com/Stainless-Pulley-545484546/ This appears to be the mfr. http://www.cmi-gear.com/ My other source is West Marine. It's important to match the pulley sheave to the rope. 73, Jim K9YC From n7rt at cox.net Tue Sep 2 16:47:43 2014 From: n7rt at cox.net (Hardy Landskov) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 13:47:43 -0700 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com> <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1><5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <7ADCEF5677BC42359615C70897DEE883@hardy998140597> McMaster-Carr Industrial Supply, Santa Fe Springs, CA has pulleys from $2 up to $357. About 20 different flavors. Hardy N7RT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 12:14 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions > On 9/2/2014 10:06 AM, Jim Brown wrote: >> >> I'm supporting high dipoles fed by RG11 up 120 ft with the 5/16-in stuff >> that DX Eng sells. They are run though top-grade pulleys, tied down at >> the base of one tree, 100# of dry sand at the base of the other tree. >> The major issue with the rope is wear -- the pulleys must be first grade >> to avoid abrasion, which WILL eventually break the rope. >> > > Can anyone recommend some first grade pulleys? I am looking for > something bigger than what they have at hardware stores, 3 or 4 > inch. > > Rick N6RK > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Tue Sep 2 17:28:10 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 14:28:10 -0700 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com> <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> Message-ID: <5406366A.8050805@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Tue,9/2/2014 1:03 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I am not using multi-hundred pound counterweights, but only 15 or so > pounds. I have been very satisfied with the big-wheel laundry line > pulleys from home depot: Carl and I are concerned with 100# and 200# tension because we are supporting more weight and between more distant rigging points. Remember that I said I was supporting 80/40 fan dipoles at 120 ft built with #9 hard drawn copper, feeding them with RG11, and have a choke at the feedpoint. That's a lot more weight than, for example, a 40M dipole at 40 ft fed with RG8X. My determination of the required counterweight was almost by accident. I bought some 6.5 gallon water jugs, filled them with dry sand, and ended up with 90-100#. That turned out to be enough for my antennas. Others may need more or less. 73, Jim K9YC From donovanf at starpower.net Tue Sep 2 18:28:54 2014 From: donovanf at starpower.net (donovanf at starpower.net) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 18:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <7ADCEF5677BC42359615C70897DEE883@hardy998140597> Message-ID: <345061937.79787423.1409696934518.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> I've tried all manor of industrial and homeowner pulleys and never found any to be suitable for long term outdoor use. For the last 25 years I've used 2.5 and 3 inch diameter sailboat pulleys (aka blocks) on all of my wire antennas and never looked back. I've never had a failure with dozens in the air. Use the largest diameter pulley you can find. Small diameter pulleys wear the rope much more rapidly than large diameter pulleys. You can find sailboat pulleys (blocks) on ebay for reasonable prices. 73 Frank W3LPL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hardy Landskov" To: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" , jim at audiosystemsgroup.com, topband at contesting.com Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2014 9:47:43 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions McMaster-Carr Industrial Supply, Santa Fe Springs, CA has pulleys from $2 up to $357. About 20 different flavors. Hardy N7RT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 12:14 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions > On 9/2/2014 10:06 AM, Jim Brown wrote: >> >> I'm supporting high dipoles fed by RG11 up 120 ft with the 5/16-in stuff >> that DX Eng sells. They are run though top-grade pulleys, tied down at >> the base of one tree, 100# of dry sand at the base of the other tree. >> The major issue with the rope is wear -- the pulleys must be first grade >> to avoid abrasion, which WILL eventually break the rope. >> > > Can anyone recommend some first grade pulleys? I am looking for > something bigger than what they have at hardware stores, 3 or 4 > inch. > > Rick N6RK > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From richard at karlquist.com Tue Sep 2 18:30:18 2014 From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 15:30:18 -0700 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <5406366A.8050805@audiosystemsgroup.com> References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com> <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> <5406366A.8050805@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <540644FA.1060200@karlquist.com> Maybe someone can help me here. The problem I am having with pulleys is that they appear to add a significant amount of friction. I am not sure if it is in the bearing, or the pulley is too small in diameter, or maybe the rope diameter doesn't exactly match the half round surface of the pulley. I see that rock climbing pulleys are only 2 inches, like there is no need for anything larger. If I get one of these super duper pulleys, is my friction going to magically go away? Does the type of rope matter in this regard? Rick N6RK From topband at contesting.com Tue Sep 2 18:49:06 2014 From: topband at contesting.com (GALE STEWARD via Topband) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 15:49:06 -0700 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com> <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> Message-ID: <1409698146.10759.YahooMailNeo@web121106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I've dealt with this outfit in the past. http://www.jamestowndistributors.com They carry Harkin blocks, rope, marine hardware, etc. Lots of good "outside" stuff. 73, Stew K3ND ________________________________ I am not using multi-hundred pound counterweights, but only 15 or so pounds. I have been very satisfied with the big-wheel laundry line pulleys from home depot: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-4-in-Clothesline-Pulley-14107/202305420 The local mariners tell me the real place to get Pulleys is the marine supply stores. Tim N3QE On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist < richard at karlquist.com> wrote: > On 9/2/2014 10:06 AM, Jim Brown wrote: > >> >> I'm supporting high dipoles fed by RG11 up 120 ft with the 5/16-in stuff >> that DX Eng sells. They are run though top-grade pulleys, tied down at >> the base of one tree, 100# of dry sand at the base of the other tree. >> The major issue with the rope is wear -- the pulleys must be first grade >> to avoid abrasion, which WILL eventually break the rope. >> >> > Can anyone recommend some first grade pulleys? I am looking for > something bigger than what they have at hardware stores, 3 or 4 > inch. > > Rick N6RK > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From grants2 at pacbell.net Tue Sep 2 18:55:53 2014 From: grants2 at pacbell.net (Grant Saviers) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 15:55:53 -0700 Subject: Topband: [Bulk] Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com> <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> Message-ID: <54064AF9.6020106@pacbell.net> Over the past 25 years, at 3 QTH's, I've used thousands of feet of the synthetictextilesinc.com 1/4" and 5/16" and have been very happy with it. Tough, strong, and lasts a very long time (MA winters, CA sun). I do use 29/30mm ball bearing pulleys (blocks) from Harken HAR340, RonstanRF20100 (20mm ok for 1/4" line), or Lewmar 29901341 ($15, best deal) on the antenna hoist line and the support point has been an eye bolt in/thru the tree, tower, or telephone pole. With plastic balls, they never seize up and the reduction in friction and line wear is huge. If the support line is over the branch it usually gets stuck from pitch, the tree grows onto it, or it wears, so I don't use a branch as a pulley. I use paracord as a pull down line on the insulator so the end of the hoist rope can be retrieved when the antenna breaks w/o a tree or tower climb. Of course any line will wear and fatigue over a pulley so moving the line a foot or two every year or so helps. ebay lines I've bought have been cheaters on diameter or not really dacron/polyester. A tree climb is $100 each here, so I spend a few bucks for something that lasts. Grant KZ1W Redmond, WA On 9/2/2014 7:47 AM, Carl wrote: > Im going to be needing 500-1000' spools of polyester double braid rope > for supporting some more wire antennas in the harsh enviroment up > here. The 5/16" is rated at 3400 tensile and the wire will be about > 50#. ID likely tension it to about 200-250# to reduce sag > > Or would real Mil-C-5040H type III (550# ) or type IV (750#) paracord > be OK? Its certainly not as strong plus it stretches. That spec was > inactivated in 1997 and Ive been unable to find its replacement. > > I only want to do this once as I aint gettin' no younger! > > Carl > KM1H > > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From billw at waveform.net Tue Sep 2 19:00:29 2014 From: billw at waveform.net (Bill Wichers) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 23:00:29 +0000 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <540644FA.1060200@karlquist.com> References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com> <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> <5406366A.8050805@audiosystemsgroup.com>, <540644FA.1060200@karlquist.com> Message-ID: <86A42A96-B3B7-4B8F-85BE-A9220D6A54CD@waveform.net> With the cheaper pulleys the top can bind between the sheave and sides of the pulley. Binding rope will chew up the rope as well as add significant friction. The better sailing-type pulleys that have been mentioned frequently have real bearings (as opposed to just the sheave running on a pin) which will also reduce friction. Larger diameter pulleys will also help. It's important to use pulleys that are correct for the size of rope you're using. I've been using the harken blocks, which are fancy pulleys. I have one that is up some 90 feet or so with maybe 80-100 pounds of load, in near full sun, and it's been ok for at least about three years now. They run maybe $15-20+ per pulley but they are FAR superior to the hardware store stuff. Using a "hard" rope will also help. Any rope that is squishy (like twisted nylon) will deform on the pulley and tend to bind. You're better off with braided rope. I use the Dacron stuff with the black outer covering that everyone seems to stock, and lately I've been using some of the mastrant rope which I think is a lot better but I haven't had any up long enough to say for sure how well it holds up over time. -Bill Sent from my iPad > On Sep 2, 2014, at 6:31 PM, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" wrote: > > Maybe someone can help me here. The problem > I am having with pulleys is that they appear > to add a significant amount of friction. I > am not sure if it is in the bearing, or the > pulley is too small in diameter, or maybe the > rope diameter doesn't exactly match the > half round surface of the pulley. I see that > rock climbing pulleys are only 2 inches, like > there is no need for anything larger. If I > get one of these super duper pulleys, is my > friction going to magically go away? Does the > type of rope matter in this regard? > > Rick N6RK > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From wa5rtg at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 19:35:35 2014 From: wa5rtg at gmail.com (Stan Stockton) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 18:35:35 -0500 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com> <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> Message-ID: http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/Products.asp?mi=68571 73...Stan, K5GO Sent from my iPad > On Sep 2, 2014, at 2:14 PM, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" wrote: > >> On 9/2/2014 10:06 AM, Jim Brown wrote: >> >> I'm supporting high dipoles fed by RG11 up 120 ft with the 5/16-in stuff >> that DX Eng sells. They are run though top-grade pulleys, tied down at >> the base of one tree, 100# of dry sand at the base of the other tree. >> The major issue with the rope is wear -- the pulleys must be first grade >> to avoid abrasion, which WILL eventually break the rope. > > Can anyone recommend some first grade pulleys? I am looking for > something bigger than what they have at hardware stores, 3 or 4 > inch. > > Rick N6RK > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From grants2 at pacbell.net Tue Sep 2 20:27:20 2014 From: grants2 at pacbell.net (Grant Saviers) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 17:27:20 -0700 Subject: Topband: [Bulk] Re: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <540644FA.1060200@karlquist.com> References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com> <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> <5406366A.8050805@audiosystemsgroup.com> <540644FA.1060200@karlquist.com> Message-ID: <54066068.3000304@pacbell.net> The smaller diameter (20 to 30mm) ball bearing sailboat blocks are $15 to $25 as I previously posted. Here is a slick block from REI for rigging ropes up to 15mm. http://www.rei.com/product/807414/camp-usa-large-mobile-pulley-ball-bearings 5600# break strength so WLL at 25% is 1400#. the side cheeks swivel so it works as a snatch block for engaging a standing line. Does more with ball bearings and costs much less and weighs a fraction of sailboat or commercial snatch blocks. A shorter length allows more travel before getting two blocked, helpful on gin pole and derrick rigging. There is also a double version. The type of rope matters, check out New England Ropes. I hope their new owners don't screw them up, they were the best. http://www.neropes.com/Interim%20Page%20Alternate.html now www.teufelberger.com/ Generally, double braid dacron or dacron/polyester is all purpose for hams - UV resistant, very low stretch, doesn't put twist into pulling cables or antenna wires, ok for temporary guys (NEVER use nylon!), good for climbing and rigging, good wear and fatigue resistance, but not as a fall protection line where stretch is needed to reduce the shock load (eg use nylon or special purpose lines). Grant KZ1W On 9/2/2014 3:30 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: > Maybe someone can help me here. The problem > I am having with pulleys is that they appear > to add a significant amount of friction. I > am not sure if it is in the bearing, or the > pulley is too small in diameter, or maybe the > rope diameter doesn't exactly match the > half round surface of the pulley. I see that > rock climbing pulleys are only 2 inches, like > there is no need for anything larger. If I > get one of these super duper pulleys, is my > friction going to magically go away? Does the > type of rope matter in this regard? > > Rick N6RK > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From charlie-cunningham at nc.rr.com Tue Sep 2 23:46:48 2014 From: charlie-cunningham at nc.rr.com (Charlie) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 23:46:48 -0400 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: <1409599588.36039.YahooMailNeo@web181005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> <5404AEEA.7090904@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404B377.3040506@w7iuv.com> <5404BC06.7040209@audiosystemsgroup.com> <1409599588.36039.YahooMailNeo@web181005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm interested! Could I run WSPR with my FT-1000 MP and a computer, if I turn the power down to 5 watts or so? What would I need? Probably want to run Windows 7 PRO? Thanks! Charlie, K4OTV -----Original Message----- From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of John Langridge Sent: Monday, September 01, 2014 3:26 PM To: Mike Waters; topband at contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? Mike, WSPR uses a low baud rate interleving process plus averaging to fight through noisy weak signal condx. The worse thing you can do is run excessive filtering or noise blanking because it can confuse the decoder and in many cases lead to false decodes or no decodes at all. The WSPR algorythm handles those things already and really likes to have a full USB BW to measure from. Anything less will result in errors in S/N data. Most of those WSPR guys on traditional HF are running very QRP. QRO certainly works but you will no doubt raise some eyebrows if you fire up at high power. Its really designed for low power and after some time, you can establishing what S/N you need to accomplish a QSO running X amount of power on CW or whatever mode. On 630-meters for normal, aural CW, that can range from -8 db to -12 db S/N as reported by WSPR. What that really translates to is another story. I suspect on 160-meters the values are quite similar. As Larry has stated, there is a lot of value in this mode in determining up-to-the-minute band condx that can lead to QSO's. That's one of the reasons we use it. It beats blindly CQing for extended periods of time. 73! John KB5NJD / WG2XIQ ________________________________ From: Mike Waters To: topband Sent: Monday, September 1, 2014 2:07 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? How well does WSPR work when the band is full of static crashes? If so, is 100 watts too much with 20 over 9 QRN? Just trying to learn. I have it working both RX and TX (5W) on 30 meters right now. :-) 73, Mike www.w0btu.com _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Wed Sep 3 00:01:51 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 21:01:51 -0700 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> <5404AEEA.7090904@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404B377.3040506@w7iuv.com> <5404BC06.7040209@audiosystemsgroup.com> <1409599588.36039.YahooMailNeo@web181005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <540692AF.3030009@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Tue,9/2/2014 8:46 PM, Charlie wrote: > Could I run WSPR with my FT-1000 MP and a computer, if I > turn the power down to 5 watts or so? What would I need? Probably want to run Windows 7 PRO? WSPR is not at all demanding of computers or operating system, but it helps to have a good sound card to dig weak signals out the noise. It certainly runs fine on XP and Linux. http://k9yc.com/USB_Interfaces.pdf 73, Jim K9YC From pete.n8tr at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 00:22:40 2014 From: pete.n8tr at gmail.com (Pete Michaelis - N8TR) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2014 00:22:40 -0400 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <540644FA.1060200@karlquist.com> References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com> <8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> <54061716.9020801@karlquist.com> <5406366A.8050805@audiosystemsgroup.com> <540644FA.1060200@karlquist.com> Message-ID: <54069798.222d320a.591c.3700@mx.google.com> For putting up wire antennas I use 2" pulleys like those shown in the link K9YC provided. For general tower work I use 3" and 4" rescue pulleys like those shown at: http://smcgear.net/pulleys/stainless-steel-pulleys.html 73 Pete - N8TR At 06:30 PM 9/2/2014, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: > I see that rock climbing pulleys are only 2 inches, like >there is no need for anything larger. If I >get one of these super duper pulleys, is my >friction going to magically go away? Does the >type of rope matter in this regard? > >Rick N6RK >_________________ >Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From mikewate at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 05:39:44 2014 From: mikewate at gmail.com (Mike Waters) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 04:39:44 -0500 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: <5404CB18.6070209@audiosystemsgroup.com> References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> <5404AEEA.7090904@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404B377.3040506@w7iuv.com> <5404BC06.7040209@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404C939.8070708@w7iuv.com> <5404CB18.6070209@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: Yesterday I decoded a Chinese station on 30m WSPR, at a level of -28. From http://wsprnet.org/drupal/wsprnet/spots: 2014-09-02 21:34 BZ1UIF 10.140268 -28 0 ND81 5 W0BTU EM37 17566 158 According to something you said in your interface PDF, the -28 seems to indicate that I already have a decent sound card (among other things.) What do you think? 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > Also, use a good A/D converter to get the RX audio into your computer. > Several good, inexpensive USB sound cards are listed on my website. > Switching from the mic input of my laptop to these units allowed me to > reliably decode signals 12 dB deeper into the noise on JT65. > > http://k9yc.com/USB_Interfaces.pdf > From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Wed Sep 3 13:41:28 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2014 10:41:28 -0700 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> <5404AEEA.7090904@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404B377.3040506@w7iuv.com> <5404BC06.7040209@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404C939.8070708@w7iuv.com> <5404CB18.6070209@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <540752C8.3070709@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Wed,9/3/2014 2:39 AM, Mike Waters wrote: > Yesterday I decoded a Chinese station on 30m WSPR, at a level of -28. From > http://wsprnet.org/drupal/wsprnet/spots: > 2014-09-02 21:34 BZ1UIF 10.140268 -28 0 ND81 5 W0BTU EM37 17566 > 158 > > According to something you said in your interface PDF, the -28 seems to > indicate that I already have a decent sound card (among other things.) What > do you think? Probably yes, but my testing was JT65, where -22 to -23 is pretty much the lower limit at which signals can be decoded. WSPR uses a more powerful noise reduction protocol that can get deeper into the noise floor. Check the WSPR doc for what that limit is. 73, Jim K9YC From no3m at no3m.net Wed Sep 3 14:30:00 2014 From: no3m at no3m.net (Eric NO3M) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2014 14:30:00 -0400 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: <540752C8.3070709@audiosystemsgroup.com> References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> <5404AEEA.7090904@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404B377.3040506@w7iuv.com> <5404BC06.7040209@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404C939.8070708@w7iuv.com> <5404CB18.6070209@audiosystemsgroup.com> <540752C8.3070709@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <54075E28.7070508@no3m.net> -33 is the lowest I've personally decoded, been decoded, and have seen between others. Currently running WSPR4 in Linux with a Microham MK2R+ (built in USB soundcard). 73 Eric NO3M / WG2XJM On 09/03/2014 01:41 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > On Wed,9/3/2014 2:39 AM, Mike Waters wrote: >> Yesterday I decoded a Chinese station on 30m WSPR, at a level of -28. >> From >> http://wsprnet.org/drupal/wsprnet/spots: >> 2014-09-02 21:34 BZ1UIF 10.140268 -28 0 ND81 5 W0BTU EM37 17566 >> 158 >> >> According to something you said in your interface PDF, the -28 seems to >> indicate that I already have a decent sound card (among other >> things.) What >> do you think? > > Probably yes, but my testing was JT65, where -22 to -23 is pretty much > the lower limit at which signals can be decoded. WSPR uses a more > powerful noise reduction protocol that can get deeper into the noise > floor. Check the WSPR doc for what that limit is. > > 73, Jim K9YC From km1h at jeremy.mv.com Thu Sep 4 11:10:48 2014 From: km1h at jeremy.mv.com (Carl) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 11:10:48 -0400 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com><8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <6F00EFC18D914A3CAFF690856BB3DE1E@computer1> Thanks to all for the suggestions. Ive been using the Synthetic Textiles since the 80's when it first came to my attention in a YCCC newsletter and have been very pleased with it. Price from DXE is $140 for two 500' reels and free shipping. OTOH I decided Id rather have a 1000' reel and eliminate extra knots and went with Davis RF and a 1000' spool of 3/16 Dacron at $130 and $15 shipping (they are in NH). Specs appear to be the same or close enough for my needs. Now to chase down some reliable pulleys as Im not about to climb 180', or trees at the other end more than once. As far as the antenna wire it will likely be #10 or 12 solid deep well motor wire as I have a lot of it salvaged for the asking back when copper was still cheap. It has a heavy jacket which will reduce the physical length. What it will do with UV and acid rain will be TBD but the lower end of the catenary ropes will have sufficient length to bring it right down to vertical for service. I might run two different lengths so as to give a flatter VSWR up to 2MHz since I do use AM on 160 at times. Also TBD. Carl KM1H From km1h at jeremy.mv.com Thu Sep 4 11:31:51 2014 From: km1h at jeremy.mv.com (Carl) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 11:31:51 -0400 Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com><8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: Ive been spending a lot of time trimming and removing trees around my shorty 60' tower which was the first one up when I moved here in 89. It is amazing how fast they seemed to overtake "my space" in "just" 25 years!! Since it is also time to replace the decidedly rusty 3/16 cable Ive decided to extend to 90' as well as use 1/4" guys as on the other 3 towers. This will allow me to do a lot more with the aluminum pile out back such as 3/3 on 20 and 8/8 on 6M. What I need is: Up to 12 502 guy insulators Up to 18 1/4" deadends/guy grips Individually prices from dealers is ridiculous and I dont need case loads as I bought when building the other 3 towers in 90-91 and wound up giving away what I didnt use. Any help appreciated. Carl KM1H From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Thu Sep 4 12:05:44 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 09:05:44 -0700 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <6F00EFC18D914A3CAFF690856BB3DE1E@computer1> References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com><8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> <6F00EFC18D914A3CAFF690856BB3DE1E@computer1> Message-ID: <54088DD8.8040206@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Thu,9/4/2014 8:10 AM, Carl wrote: > As far as the antenna wire it will likely be #10 or 12 solid deep well > motor wire as I have a lot of it salvaged for the asking back when > copper was still cheap. GM Carl, Be prepared for any copper wire to stretch under the sort of tension that I am using and that you plan to use. One of my high dipoles is an 80/40 fan that I built about six years ago with #10 stranded THHN. Every couple of years, I have drop it and cut a foot or two from each end. Hoping to minimize that, I've been buying #8 solid copper from Home Depot and stretching it in the hope of making it hard drawn. W6GJB and I tie one end to a tree, the other to the trailer hitch on his pickup, and slowly pull until it breaks. We get roughly 10-15% stretch. About six months ago, I used some of it to add a reflector to one of my 80M dipoles, and pulled the tension tight. It's sagged quite a bit. I haven't measured it since. 73, Jim K9YC From billw at waveform.net Thu Sep 4 13:31:07 2014 From: billw at waveform.net (Bill Wichers) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 17:31:07 +0000 Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff In-Reply-To: References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com><8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <4897906C085783429A2F4B39EBFF44F06C8BBA07@Server-01.WaveformTechnology.local> If you only need a few like this, try calling some of the utility contractors in your area. They will always have the dead ends and the guys that also do the power work will also have the insulators. They will probably be able to sell you a few without too much trouble. BTW, the utility guys will usually call the "dead ends" "preforms" (different industry, different terminology :-), but they are the same thing. The telco/cable guys use 1/4" EHS strand for a support line for their cables so they will always have hardware for that. The preforms are cheap enough from the crew's perspective that they are occasionally used as temporary "twist ties" to hole up cable prior to lashing. You can order the stuff from Graybar too (probably the telecom division, but the power division can get stuff too), but I don't know about their prices. I've only ever ordered by the carton at work. -Bill > What I need is: > > Up to 12 502 guy insulators > Up to 18 1/4" deadends/guy grips > > Individually prices from dealers is ridiculous and I dont need case loads as I > bought when building the other 3 towers in 90-91 and wound up giving away > what I didnt use. > > Any help appreciated. > > Carl > KM1H > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From donovanf at starpower.net Thu Sep 4 13:40:02 2014 From: donovanf at starpower.net (donovanf at starpower.net) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 13:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff In-Reply-To: <4897906C085783429A2F4B39EBFF44F06C8BBA07@Server-01.WaveformTechnology.local> Message-ID: <1022828630.81887524.1409852402093.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> Tower guys should use Big Grips, not the performs used by electric utilities. You can purchase Big Grips from Texas Towers and many other suppliers 73 Frank W3LPL ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Wichers <billw at waveform.net> To: Carl <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>, topband at contesting.com Sent: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff If you only need a few like this, try calling some of the utility contractors in your area. They will always have the dead ends and the guys that also do the power work will also have the insulators. They will probably be able to sell you a few without too much trouble. BTW, the utility guys will usually call the "dead ends" "preforms" (different industry, different terminology :-), but they are the same thing. The telco/cable guys use 1/4" EHS strand for a support line for their cables so they will always have hardware for that. The preforms are cheap enough from the crew's perspective that they are occasionally used as temporary "twist ties" to hole up cable prior to lashing. You can order the stuff from Graybar too (probably the telecom division, but the power division can get stuff too), but I don't know about their prices. I've only ever ordered by the carton at work. -Bill > What I need is: > > Up to 12 502 guy insulators > Up to 18 1/4" deadends/guy grips > > Individually prices from dealers is ridiculous and I dont need case loads as I > bought when building the other 3 towers in 90-91 and wound up giving away > what I didnt use. > > Any help appreciated. > > Carl > KM1H > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From km1h at jeremy.mv.com Thu Sep 4 13:52:02 2014 From: km1h at jeremy.mv.com (Carl) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 13:52:02 -0400 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions References: <8D187DC71510F33-29B0-19A53@webmail-m216.sysops.aol.com><8E1B5754C4224EA7B66598F47FE7E005@computer1> <5405F921.1060902@audiosystemsgroup.com><6F00EFC18D914A3CAFF690856BB3DE1E@computer1> <54088DD8.8040206@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <355AC1D918114B949C091C5B67AAC481@computer1> Ive been stretching copper since 1967 with lawn tractors since buying my first home; 8 acres and about 3 had to be mowed. I suspect well pump wire may hard drawn but I'll give a small piece a test first with a vise and comealong. Carl KM1H ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brown" To: Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 12:05 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions > On Thu,9/4/2014 8:10 AM, Carl wrote: >> As far as the antenna wire it will likely be #10 or 12 solid deep well >> motor wire as I have a lot of it salvaged for the asking back when copper >> was still cheap. > > GM Carl, > > Be prepared for any copper wire to stretch under the sort of tension that > I am using and that you plan to use. One of my high dipoles is an 80/40 > fan that I built about six years ago with #10 stranded THHN. Every couple > of years, I have drop it and cut a foot or two from each end. > > Hoping to minimize that, I've been buying #8 solid copper from Home Depot > and stretching it in the hope of making it hard drawn. W6GJB and I tie one > end to a tree, the other to the trailer hitch on his pickup, and slowly > pull until it breaks. We get roughly 10-15% stretch. About six months ago, > I used some of it to add a reflector to one of my 80M dipoles, and pulled > the tension tight. It's sagged quite a bit. I haven't measured it since. > > 73, Jim K9YC > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8153 - Release Date: 09/04/14 > From km1h at jeremy.mv.com Thu Sep 4 14:14:00 2014 From: km1h at jeremy.mv.com (Carl) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 14:14:00 -0400 Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff References: <1022828630.81887524.1409852402093.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> Message-ID: <24E4FFDCC17647C8BE2A5982D689733B@computer1> Not according to the folks that invented them Frank. The Big Grip is a Guy Grip for serious towers. http://www.preformed.com/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_phocadownload%26view%3Dcategory%26download%3D44:plp-commcatsec20-2012%26id%3D15:strand-and-cable-products%26Itemid%3D145&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=nqoIVJWDDcmayAT5hoHQDA&ved=0CBQQFjAA&sig2=1aPQDpfnvYFm8XWlxXxgjw&usg=AFQjCNEns72sjImeKDRibuLmm62WL9bSqA The Preform name is often used as a noun by cable apes (-; Carl KM1H ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Bill Wichers" Cc: "Carl" ; Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > Tower guys should use Big Grips, not the performs used by electric > utilities. You can purchase Big Grips from Texas Towers and many other > suppliers > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Wichers <billw at waveform.net> > To: Carl <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>, topband at contesting.com > Sent: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:31:07 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > If you only need a few like this, try calling some of the utility > contractors in your area. They will always have the dead ends and the guys > that also do the power work will also have the insulators. They will > probably be able to sell you a few without too much trouble. > > BTW, the utility guys will usually call the "dead ends" "preforms" > (different industry, different terminology :-), but they are the same > thing. The telco/cable guys use 1/4" EHS strand for a support line for > their cables so they will always have hardware for that. The preforms are > cheap enough from the crew's perspective that they are occasionally used > as temporary "twist ties" to hole up cable prior to lashing. > > You can order the stuff from Graybar too (probably the telecom division, > but the power division can get stuff too), but I don't know about their > prices. I've only ever ordered by the carton at work. > > -Bill > > > What I need is: > > > > Up to 12 502 guy insulators > > Up to 18 1/4" deadends/guy grips > > > > Individually prices from dealers is ridiculous and I dont need case > loads as I > > bought when building the other 3 towers in 90-91 and wound up giving > away > > what I didnt use. > > > > Any help appreciated. > > > > Carl > > KM1H > > > > _________________ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8153 - Release Date: 09/04/14 > From Gary at ka1j.com Thu Sep 4 14:16:13 2014 From: Gary at ka1j.com (Gary Smith) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 14:16:13 -0400 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <6F00EFC18D914A3CAFF690856BB3DE1E@computer1> References: , <6F00EFC18D914A3CAFF690856BB3DE1E@computer1> Message-ID: <5408AC6D.3734.1DC9DF53@Gary.ka1j.com> I've been using that same size dacron rope ever since 1985 and keep reusing it. It's been in Louisiana, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana and now CT in -25 to 105 temps, hurricanes and incredibly close brushes with tornados, It's never broken once on me and I trust it still today. It's very durable and easy to use line. Gary KA1J > OTOH I decided Id rather have a 1000' reel and eliminate extra knots and > went with Davis RF and a 1000' spool of 3/16 Dacron at $130 and $15 shipping > (they are in NH). Specs appear to be the same or close enough for my needs. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From billw at waveform.net Thu Sep 4 14:37:30 2014 From: billw at waveform.net (Bill Wichers) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 18:37:30 +0000 Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff In-Reply-To: <1022828630.81887524.1409852402093.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> References: <4897906C085783429A2F4B39EBFF44F06C8BBA07@Server-01.WaveformTechnology.local> <1022828630.81887524.1409852402093.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> Message-ID: <4897906C085783429A2F4B39EBFF44F06C8BBCA4@Server-01.WaveformTechnology.local> The "Big Grips" are just the ones for the larger diameter cables. I think they start at 1/2" and go up from there. It's rare to see utilities use larger than 3/8", and 1/4" is by far the most common with the telecom industry. All of the dead end / preform guy grips are rated for the breaking strength of the cable they are designed for. -Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: donovanf at starpower.net [mailto:donovanf at starpower.net] > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 1:40 PM > To: Bill Wichers > Cc: Carl; topband at contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > Tower guys should use Big Grips, not the performs used by electric utilities. > You can purchase Big Grips from Texas Towers and many other suppliers > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > From aa4nu at comcast.net Thu Sep 4 14:52:23 2014 From: aa4nu at comcast.net (Billy Cox) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 18:52:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff In-Reply-To: <4897906C085783429A2F4B39EBFF44F06C8BBCA4@Server-01.WaveformTechnology.local> References: <4897906C085783429A2F4B39EBFF44F06C8BBA07@Server-01.WaveformTechnology.local> <1022828630.81887524.1409852402093.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> <4897906C085783429A2F4B39EBFF44F06C8BBCA4@Server-01.WaveformTechnology.local> Message-ID: <2102420987.12221316.1409856743360.JavaMail.root@comcast.net> IIRC, the 'grips' used by power companies are NOT the same as used by tower installers? Seems like this was discussed on TowerTalk several years ago. Seems like the overall length of the 'grip' was different and .... ? As no one wants to do this twice or have a tower to come down, might be worth confirming the above. Hope this helps! 73 de Billy, AA4NU ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Wichers" To: donovanf at starpower.net Cc: "Carl" , topband at contesting.com Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 1:37:30 PM Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff The "Big Grips" are just the ones for the larger diameter cables. I think they start at 1/2" and go up from there. It's rare to see utilities use larger than 3/8", and 1/4" is by far the most common with the telecom industry. All of the dead end / preform guy grips are rated for the breaking strength of the cable they are designed for. -Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: donovanf at starpower.net [mailto:donovanf at starpower.net] > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 1:40 PM > To: Bill Wichers > Cc: Carl; topband at contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > Tower guys should use Big Grips, not the performs used by electric utilities. > You can purchase Big Grips from Texas Towers and many other suppliers > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From topband at contesting.com Thu Sep 4 15:27:10 2014 From: topband at contesting.com (Cqtestk4xs--- via Topband) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 15:27:10 -0400 Subject: Topband: PLP guy grips Message-ID: <71af2.5e706800.413a170e@aol.com> Yes, there is a difference between what the power companies use and what tower hands use. I spoke to the guys at Preformed Line Products back around 2004 and they said there IS a difference. The ones used for towers are what you want. Big Grips. Bill K4XS In a message dated 9/4/2014 6:14:41 P.M. Coordinated Universal Time, km1h at jeremy.mv.com writes: Not according to the folks that invented them Frank. The Big Grip is a Guy Grip for serious towers. http://www.preformed.com/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_phocadownload%26view%3Dcat egory%26download%3D44:plp-commcatsec20-2012%26id%3D15:strand-and-cable-produ cts%26Itemid%3D145&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=nqoIVJWDDcmayAT5hoHQDA&ved= 0CBQQFjAA&sig2=1aPQDpfnvYFm8XWlxXxgjw&usg=AFQjCNEns72sjImeKDRibuLmm62WL9bSqA The Preform name is often used as a noun by cable apes (-; Carl KM1H ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Bill Wichers" Cc: "Carl" ; Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > Tower guys should use Big Grips, not the performs used by electric > utilities. You can purchase Big Grips from Texas Towers and many other > suppliers > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Wichers <billw at waveform.net> > To: Carl <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>, topband at contesting.com > Sent: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:31:07 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > If you only need a few like this, try calling some of the utility > contractors in your area. They will always have the dead ends and the guys > that also do the power work will also have the insulators. They will > probably be able to sell you a few without too much trouble. > > BTW, the utility guys will usually call the "dead ends" "preforms" > (different industry, different terminology :-), but they are the same > thing. The telco/cable guys use 1/4" EHS strand for a support line for > their cables so they will always have hardware for that. The preforms are > cheap enough from the crew's perspective that they are occasionally used > as temporary "twist ties" to hole up cable prior to lashing. > > You can order the stuff from Graybar too (probably the telecom division, > but the power division can get stuff too), but I don't know about their > prices. I've only ever ordered by the carton at work. > > -Bill > > > What I need is: > > > > Up to 12 502 guy insulators > > Up to 18 1/4" deadends/guy grips > > > > Individually prices from dealers is ridiculous and I dont need case > loads as I > > bought when building the other 3 towers in 90-91 and wound up giving > away > > what I didnt use. > > > > Any help appreciated. > > > > Carl > > KM1H > > > > _________________ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8153 - Release Date: 09/04/14 > _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From donovanf at starpower.net Thu Sep 4 15:34:15 2014 From: donovanf at starpower.net (donovanf at starpower.net) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 15:34:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff In-Reply-To: <000001cfc869$d55c9710$8015c530$@net> Message-ID: <2106572419.82037227.1409859255846.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> Hi Greg, I've never seen a rated holding strength for Guy-Grips (the type used on wood poles). Big Grips are rated at 6650 pounds holding strength. Big Grips are two inches longer than Guy Grips. The manufacturer says: "Guy-Grip Dead-ends are intended for use on single wood poles associated with distribution construction." and: "Big-Grip Dead-ends are designed for use on Transmission, Antenna, Communications, and other types of guyed structures that require use of large guy strand." 73 Frank W3LPL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg" To: donovanf at starpower.net Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 6:58:22 PM Subject: RE: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff Why is that, Frank? My understanding is that the preforms are stronger than the guy wire so I'm curious why feel that Big Grips are necessary? Thanks. 73, Greg-N4CC -----Original Message----- From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of donovanf at starpower.net Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 11:40 AM To: Bill Wichers Cc: Carl; topband at contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff Tower guys should use Big Grips, not the performs used by electric utilities. You can purchase Big Grips from Texas Towers and many other suppliers 73 Frank W3LPL ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Wichers <billw at waveform.net> To: Carl <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>, topband at contesting.com Sent: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff If you only need a few like this, try calling some of the utility contractors in your area. They will always have the dead ends and the guys that also do the power work will also have the insulators. They will probably be able to sell you a few without too much trouble. BTW, the utility guys will usually call the "dead ends" "preforms" (different industry, different terminology :-), but they are the same thing. The telco/cable guys use 1/4" EHS strand for a support line for their cables so they will always have hardware for that. The preforms are cheap enough from the crew's perspective that they are occasionally used as temporary "twist ties" to hole up cable prior to lashing. You can order the stuff from Graybar too (probably the telecom division, but the power division can get stuff too), but I don't know about their prices. I've only ever ordered by the carton at work. -Bill > What I need is: > > Up to 12 502 guy insulators > Up to 18 1/4" deadends/guy grips > > Individually prices from dealers is ridiculous and I dont need case loads as I > bought when building the other 3 towers in 90-91 and wound up giving away > what I didnt use. > > Any help appreciated. > > Carl > KM1H > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From donovanf at starpower.net Thu Sep 4 15:43:28 2014 From: donovanf at starpower.net (donovanf at starpower.net) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 15:43:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff In-Reply-To: <24E4FFDCC17647C8BE2A5982D689733B@computer1> Message-ID: <1374418077.82047436.1409859808394.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> Hi Carl, BG-2144 is the correct part number Big Grips for 1/4 inch guy wire attached to a tower. They're two inches longer than the Guy Grips for wood poles. See the Preformed Line Products Tower and Antenna Catalog http://www.preformed.com/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=category&download=768:nu-ca-1002-4-tower-and-antenna-catalog&id=41:tower-and-antenna-solutions&Itemid=208 73 Frank W3LPL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl" To: donovanf at starpower.net, "Bill Wichers" Cc: topband at contesting.com Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 7:14:00 PM Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff Not according to the folks that invented them Frank. The Big Grip is a Guy Grip for serious towers. http://www.preformed.com/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_phocadownload%26view%3Dcategory%26download%3D44:plp-commcatsec20-2012%26id%3D15:strand-and-cable-products%26Itemid%3D145&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=nqoIVJWDDcmayAT5hoHQDA&ved=0CBQQFjAA&sig2=1aPQDpfnvYFm8XWlxXxgjw&usg=AFQjCNEns72sjImeKDRibuLmm62WL9bSqA The Preform name is often used as a noun by cable apes (-; Carl KM1H ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Bill Wichers" Cc: "Carl" ; Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > Tower guys should use Big Grips, not the performs used by electric > utilities. You can purchase Big Grips from Texas Towers and many other > suppliers > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Wichers <billw at waveform.net> > To: Carl <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>, topband at contesting.com > Sent: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:31:07 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > If you only need a few like this, try calling some of the utility > contractors in your area. They will always have the dead ends and the guys > that also do the power work will also have the insulators. They will > probably be able to sell you a few without too much trouble. > > BTW, the utility guys will usually call the "dead ends" "preforms" > (different industry, different terminology :-), but they are the same > thing. The telco/cable guys use 1/4" EHS strand for a support line for > their cables so they will always have hardware for that. The preforms are > cheap enough from the crew's perspective that they are occasionally used > as temporary "twist ties" to hole up cable prior to lashing. > > You can order the stuff from Graybar too (probably the telecom division, > but the power division can get stuff too), but I don't know about their > prices. I've only ever ordered by the carton at work. > > -Bill > > > What I need is: > > > > Up to 12 502 guy insulators > > Up to 18 1/4" deadends/guy grips > > > > Individually prices from dealers is ridiculous and I dont need case > loads as I > > bought when building the other 3 towers in 90-91 and wound up giving > away > > what I didnt use. > > > > Any help appreciated. > > > > Carl > > KM1H > > > > _________________ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8153 - Release Date: 09/04/14 > From billw at waveform.net Thu Sep 4 16:07:51 2014 From: billw at waveform.net (Bill Wichers) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 20:07:51 +0000 Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff In-Reply-To: <2106572419.82037227.1409859255846.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> References: <000001cfc869$d55c9710$8015c530$@net> <2106572419.82037227.1409859255846.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> Message-ID: <4897906C085783429A2F4B39EBFF44F06C8BC15C@Server-01.WaveformTechnology.local> The guy-grips ("regular" / utility style) are supposed to be (according to catalog data) be of the same strength as the cable they are designed to grip. In that industry, the line tension is part of the load calculations used for the pole ratings, guys/anchors, and all the rest of the pole line hardware. There are NESC specs for how that is handled with wind and ice load. The grips can't just be a "looks good, don't worry about it" spec if they are going to be used. The Big-grips (I was just looking at the catalog in the link recently posted), have rated strengths specified and are a little longer. It may be that they are more thoroughly tested/specified and the extra length is extra insurance for the tower-guying-rated products. I would think the tower guying application is probably considered to be more critical and needing of more careful/consistent product testing. If the primary actual difference is in the product's quality control, then either is likely to work fine in practice but the big-grips that are specified for use with tower guying would be safer, especially if you ever had to deal with an insurance claim. The only other thing I can think of is that the preforms used in utility construction, to me (just by looking), appear to be slightly smaller than the guy cable at the cabled loop part of the preform grip (it's one or two individual strands less than in the cable itself). Has anyone ever directly compared the two types to see if there are any obvious physical differences besides just the length? -Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of > donovanf at starpower.net > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 3:34 PM > To: topband at contesting.com > Cc: Greg > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > Hi Greg, > > I've never seen a rated holding strength for Guy-Grips (the type used on > wood poles). Big Grips are rated at 6650 pounds holding strength. > Big Grips are two inches longer than Guy Grips. > > The manufacturer says: > > "Guy-Grip Dead-ends are intended for use on single wood poles associated > with distribution construction." > > and: > > "Big-Grip Dead-ends are designed for use on Transmission, Antenna, > Communications, and other types of guyed structures that require use of > large guy strand." > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Greg" > To: donovanf at starpower.net > Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 6:58:22 PM > Subject: RE: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > Why is that, Frank? My understanding is that the preforms are stronger than > the guy wire so I'm curious why feel that Big Grips are necessary? Thanks. > 73, Greg-N4CC From donovanf at starpower.net Thu Sep 4 16:13:55 2014 From: donovanf at starpower.net (donovanf at starpower.net) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 16:13:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff In-Reply-To: <24E4FFDCC17647C8BE2A5982D689733B@computer1> Message-ID: <1063554107.82081710.1409861635564.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> Hi Carl, Preformed Line Products says: ""Guy-Grip Dead-ends are intended for use on single wood poles associated with distribution construction." If you examine the Rohn tower hardware catalog, they list only Big Grips, never a mention of using wood pole Guy Grips on any of their towers For a few dollars more you can use the BG-2144 Big Grip product recommended by the manufacturer for use on towers. Use Guy Grips for wood poles at your own risk... 73 Frank W3LPL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl" To: donovanf at starpower.net, "Bill Wichers" Cc: topband at contesting.com Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 7:14:00 PM Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff Not according to the folks that invented them Frank. The Big Grip is a Guy Grip for serious towers. http://www.preformed.com/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_phocadownload%26view%3Dcategory%26download%3D44:plp-commcatsec20-2012%26id%3D15:strand-and-cable-products%26Itemid%3D145&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=nqoIVJWDDcmayAT5hoHQDA&ved=0CBQQFjAA&sig2=1aPQDpfnvYFm8XWlxXxgjw&usg=AFQjCNEns72sjImeKDRibuLmm62WL9bSqA The Preform name is often used as a noun by cable apes (-; Carl KM1H ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Bill Wichers" Cc: "Carl" ; Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > Tower guys should use Big Grips, not the performs used by electric > utilities. You can purchase Big Grips from Texas Towers and many other > suppliers > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Wichers <billw at waveform.net> > To: Carl <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>, topband at contesting.com > Sent: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:31:07 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > If you only need a few like this, try calling some of the utility > contractors in your area. They will always have the dead ends and the guys > that also do the power work will also have the insulators. They will > probably be able to sell you a few without too much trouble. > > BTW, the utility guys will usually call the "dead ends" "preforms" > (different industry, different terminology :-), but they are the same > thing. The telco/cable guys use 1/4" EHS strand for a support line for > their cables so they will always have hardware for that. The preforms are > cheap enough from the crew's perspective that they are occasionally used > as temporary "twist ties" to hole up cable prior to lashing. > > You can order the stuff from Graybar too (probably the telecom division, > but the power division can get stuff too), but I don't know about their > prices. I've only ever ordered by the carton at work. > > -Bill > > > What I need is: > > > > Up to 12 502 guy insulators > > Up to 18 1/4" deadends/guy grips > > > > Individually prices from dealers is ridiculous and I dont need case > loads as I > > bought when building the other 3 towers in 90-91 and wound up giving > away > > what I didnt use. > > > > Any help appreciated. > > > > Carl > > KM1H > > > > _________________ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8153 - Release Date: 09/04/14 > From chacuff at cableone.net Thu Sep 4 22:44:27 2014 From: chacuff at cableone.net (Cecil) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 21:44:27 -0500 Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff In-Reply-To: <1063554107.82081710.1409861635564.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> References: <1063554107.82081710.1409861635564.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> Message-ID: <8EC3A1A3-B31B-41E8-8380-C7D7CCACB9EF@cableone.net> Have been for the last 7 years...no issues at all. The tower products are just an adaptation of products used in the power distribution business for years. I work for an electric utility, one of the largest in the US. I've seen both products and see no difference in their design. The preformed line products grips are used to guy transmission towers on a routine basis. We also use them to support fiber optic cables on distribution and transmission structures. I chose the PLP grips for my 65' tower...they were a good bit cheaper. I also used screw down anchors for my guy points...the ones used in the electrical distribution business. Bigger plates, galvanized instead of painted and heavier duty....for less money. But it is a personal choice.... Cecil K5DL Sent from my iPad > On Sep 4, 2014, at 3:13 PM, donovanf at starpower.net wrote: > > Hi Carl, > > Preformed Line Products says: ""Guy-Grip Dead-ends are intended for > use on single wood poles associated with distribution construction." > > If you examine the Rohn tower hardware catalog, they list only Big Grips, > never a mention of using wood pole Guy Grips on any of their towers > > For a few dollars more you can use the BG-2144 Big Grip product > recommended by the manufacturer for use on towers. > > Use Guy Grips for wood poles at your own risk... > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Carl" > To: donovanf at starpower.net, "Bill Wichers" > Cc: topband at contesting.com > Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 7:14:00 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > Not according to the folks that invented them Frank. The Big Grip is a Guy > Grip for serious towers. > > http://www.preformed.com/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_phocadownload%26view%3Dcategory%26download%3D44:plp-commcatsec20-2012%26id%3D15:strand-and-cable-products%26Itemid%3D145&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=nqoIVJWDDcmayAT5hoHQDA&ved=0CBQQFjAA&sig2=1aPQDpfnvYFm8XWlxXxgjw&usg=AFQjCNEns72sjImeKDRibuLmm62WL9bSqA > > The Preform name is often used as a noun by cable apes (-; > > Carl > KM1H > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Bill Wichers" > Cc: "Carl" ; > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 1:40 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > >> Tower guys should use Big Grips, not the performs used by electric >> utilities. You can purchase Big Grips from Texas Towers and many other >> suppliers >> >> 73 >> Frank >> W3LPL >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bill Wichers <billw at waveform.net> >> To: Carl <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>, topband at contesting.com >> Sent: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:31:07 -0400 (EDT) >> Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff >> >> If you only need a few like this, try calling some of the utility >> contractors in your area. They will always have the dead ends and the guys >> that also do the power work will also have the insulators. They will >> probably be able to sell you a few without too much trouble. >> >> BTW, the utility guys will usually call the "dead ends" "preforms" >> (different industry, different terminology :-), but they are the same >> thing. The telco/cable guys use 1/4" EHS strand for a support line for >> their cables so they will always have hardware for that. The preforms are >> cheap enough from the crew's perspective that they are occasionally used >> as temporary "twist ties" to hole up cable prior to lashing. >> >> You can order the stuff from Graybar too (probably the telecom division, >> but the power division can get stuff too), but I don't know about their >> prices. I've only ever ordered by the carton at work. >> >> -Bill >> >> > What I need is: >> > >> > Up to 12 502 guy insulators >> > Up to 18 1/4" deadends/guy grips >> > >> > Individually prices from dealers is ridiculous and I dont need case >> loads as I >> > bought when building the other 3 towers in 90-91 and wound up giving >> away >> > what I didnt use. >> > >> > Any help appreciated. >> > >> > Carl >> > KM1H >> > >> > _________________ >> > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> _________________ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8153 - Release Date: 09/04/14 > > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From chacuff at cableone.net Thu Sep 4 22:55:47 2014 From: chacuff at cableone.net (Cecil) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 21:55:47 -0500 Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff In-Reply-To: <1063554107.82081710.1409861635564.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> References: <1063554107.82081710.1409861635564.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> Message-ID: <12BB4B52-5726-4E7D-882D-CB3DC01F37C1@cableone.net> As a follow up...check the PLP product catalog...they make the "Big Grip" product for communications tower guy installations.... Like I said Rohn is just using an existing product made by others. Can be ordered for less through your local electrical supply house probably...than through a Rohn dealer. Cecil K5DL Sent from my iPad > On Sep 4, 2014, at 3:13 PM, donovanf at starpower.net wrote: > > Hi Carl, > > Preformed Line Products says: ""Guy-Grip Dead-ends are intended for > use on single wood poles associated with distribution construction." > > If you examine the Rohn tower hardware catalog, they list only Big Grips, > never a mention of using wood pole Guy Grips on any of their towers > > For a few dollars more you can use the BG-2144 Big Grip product > recommended by the manufacturer for use on towers. > > Use Guy Grips for wood poles at your own risk... > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Carl" > To: donovanf at starpower.net, "Bill Wichers" > Cc: topband at contesting.com > Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 7:14:00 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > Not according to the folks that invented them Frank. The Big Grip is a Guy > Grip for serious towers. > > http://www.preformed.com/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_phocadownload%26view%3Dcategory%26download%3D44:plp-commcatsec20-2012%26id%3D15:strand-and-cable-products%26Itemid%3D145&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=nqoIVJWDDcmayAT5hoHQDA&ved=0CBQQFjAA&sig2=1aPQDpfnvYFm8XWlxXxgjw&usg=AFQjCNEns72sjImeKDRibuLmm62WL9bSqA > > The Preform name is often used as a noun by cable apes (-; > > Carl > KM1H > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Bill Wichers" > Cc: "Carl" ; > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 1:40 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > >> Tower guys should use Big Grips, not the performs used by electric >> utilities. You can purchase Big Grips from Texas Towers and many other >> suppliers >> >> 73 >> Frank >> W3LPL >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bill Wichers <billw at waveform.net> >> To: Carl <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>, topband at contesting.com >> Sent: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:31:07 -0400 (EDT) >> Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff >> >> If you only need a few like this, try calling some of the utility >> contractors in your area. They will always have the dead ends and the guys >> that also do the power work will also have the insulators. They will >> probably be able to sell you a few without too much trouble. >> >> BTW, the utility guys will usually call the "dead ends" "preforms" >> (different industry, different terminology :-), but they are the same >> thing. The telco/cable guys use 1/4" EHS strand for a support line for >> their cables so they will always have hardware for that. The preforms are >> cheap enough from the crew's perspective that they are occasionally used >> as temporary "twist ties" to hole up cable prior to lashing. >> >> You can order the stuff from Graybar too (probably the telecom division, >> but the power division can get stuff too), but I don't know about their >> prices. I've only ever ordered by the carton at work. >> >> -Bill >> >> > What I need is: >> > >> > Up to 12 502 guy insulators >> > Up to 18 1/4" deadends/guy grips >> > >> > Individually prices from dealers is ridiculous and I dont need case >> loads as I >> > bought when building the other 3 towers in 90-91 and wound up giving >> away >> > what I didnt use. >> > >> > Any help appreciated. >> > >> > Carl >> > KM1H >> > >> > _________________ >> > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> _________________ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8153 - Release Date: 09/04/14 > > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From k3lr at k3lr.com Thu Sep 4 23:06:22 2014 From: k3lr at k3lr.com (Tim Duffy) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 23:06:22 -0400 Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff - please be safe In-Reply-To: <8EC3A1A3-B31B-41E8-8380-C7D7CCACB9EF@cableone.net> References: <1063554107.82081710.1409861635564.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> <8EC3A1A3-B31B-41E8-8380-C7D7CCACB9EF@cableone.net> Message-ID: <7432747A019F4A2A8DC0D80104BD66E1@laptop> Be very careful with "real world" testimonials - giving advice to use products for the wrong application is really dangerous. We are talking about serious tower projects that can turn fatal if you use the wrong equipment. I don't care how high the tower is. PLEASE USE THE RIGHT STUFF! If anyone uses the wrong tower hardware and does not have problems or does not get killed, I call that "luck". Do you want to bet your life on luck? Use the EXACT product that is specifically designed for tower applications. Do not take short cuts! Pay attention to the tower, guy wire and antenna manufactures instructions. Tower guy wires are special. Talk to a professional mechanical engineer with tower engineering experience, he will tell you. There is a reason there are two different PLP products for two very different applications. Every year several Hams are killed in tower accidents because they took short cuts, bad chances or tried to save money - or worst of all, they got bad advice. What is your life or one of your friend's lives worth? Have you ever gone to a funeral of a tower climber? I have - and it changed my life forever. PLEASE BE SAFE 73, Tim K3LR -----Original Message----- From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 10:44 PM To: donovanf at starpower.net Cc: Carl; topband at contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff Have been for the last 7 years...no issues at all. The tower products are just an adaptation of products used in the power distribution business for years. I work for an electric utility, one of the largest in the US. I've seen both products and see no difference in their design. The preformed line products grips are used to guy transmission towers on a routine basis. We also use them to support fiber optic cables on distribution and transmission structures. I chose the PLP grips for my 65' tower...they were a good bit cheaper. I also used screw down anchors for my guy points...the ones used in the electrical distribution business. Bigger plates, galvanized instead of painted and heavier duty....for less money. But it is a personal choice.... Cecil K5DL Sent from my iPad > On Sep 4, 2014, at 3:13 PM, donovanf at starpower.net wrote: > > Hi Carl, > > Preformed Line Products says: ""Guy-Grip Dead-ends are intended for > use on single wood poles associated with distribution construction." > > If you examine the Rohn tower hardware catalog, they list only Big Grips, > never a mention of using wood pole Guy Grips on any of their towers > > For a few dollars more you can use the BG-2144 Big Grip product > recommended by the manufacturer for use on towers. > > Use Guy Grips for wood poles at your own risk... > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Carl" > To: donovanf at starpower.net, "Bill Wichers" > Cc: topband at contesting.com > Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 7:14:00 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > Not according to the folks that invented them Frank. The Big Grip is a Guy > Grip for serious towers. > > http://www.preformed.com/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_phocadownload%26view%3Dcat egory%26download%3D44:plp-commcatsec20-2012%26id%3D15:strand-and-cable-produ cts%26Itemid%3D145&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=nqoIVJWDDcmayAT5hoHQDA&ved= 0CBQQFjAA&sig2=1aPQDpfnvYFm8XWlxXxgjw&usg=AFQjCNEns72sjImeKDRibuLmm62WL9bSqA > > The Preform name is often used as a noun by cable apes (-; > > Carl > KM1H > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Bill Wichers" > Cc: "Carl" ; > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 1:40 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > >> Tower guys should use Big Grips, not the performs used by electric >> utilities. You can purchase Big Grips from Texas Towers and many other >> suppliers >> >> 73 >> Frank >> W3LPL >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bill Wichers <billw at waveform.net> >> To: Carl <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>, topband at contesting.com >> Sent: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:31:07 -0400 (EDT) >> Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff >> >> If you only need a few like this, try calling some of the utility >> contractors in your area. They will always have the dead ends and the guys >> that also do the power work will also have the insulators. They will >> probably be able to sell you a few without too much trouble. >> >> BTW, the utility guys will usually call the "dead ends" "preforms" >> (different industry, different terminology :-), but they are the same >> thing. The telco/cable guys use 1/4" EHS strand for a support line for >> their cables so they will always have hardware for that. The preforms are >> cheap enough from the crew's perspective that they are occasionally used >> as temporary "twist ties" to hole up cable prior to lashing. >> >> You can order the stuff from Graybar too (probably the telecom division, >> but the power division can get stuff too), but I don't know about their >> prices. I've only ever ordered by the carton at work. >> >> -Bill >> >> > What I need is: >> > >> > Up to 12 502 guy insulators >> > Up to 18 1/4" deadends/guy grips >> > >> > Individually prices from dealers is ridiculous and I dont need case >> loads as I >> > bought when building the other 3 towers in 90-91 and wound up giving >> away >> > what I didnt use. >> > >> > Any help appreciated. >> > >> > Carl >> > KM1H >> > >> > _________________ >> > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> _________________ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8153 - Release Date: 09/04/14 > > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From charlie-cunningham at nc.rr.com Fri Sep 5 01:08:15 2014 From: charlie-cunningham at nc.rr.com (Charlie) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 01:08:15 -0400 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <5408AC6D.3734.1DC9DF53@Gary.ka1j.com> References: , <6F00EFC18D914A3CAFF690856BB3DE1E@computer1> <5408AC6D.3734.1DC9DF53@Gary.ka1j.com> Message-ID: Well, my experience has been about the same as yours, Gary! I got mine years ago directly from Synthetic Textiles. I got two 500' spools of 5/16" black Dacron and a 100' spool of 3/16" and a 1000' spool of 1/8 inch. Like you, I've hauled it from one qth to another over several moves! It' virtually indestructible no matter how I abused it or what I subjected it to. It doesn't stretch, and it handles very well -especially the 5/16 size. I expect that the 5/16 size would be up to towing a vehicle. I've never in my life encountered anything to equal it! At my first qth here in Raleigh, I held up my 160 Inverted L for several years in a tall pine tree that grew around the rope, When I went to move, I couldn't pull it down, so I used my Volkswagen Jetta and pulled the top out of the pine and recovered my line - none the worse for wear! That was 1987, and I've continued to use those batches of Dacron rope ever since! I just use and reuse the same lines! They've been out in the sun and weather for the past 17 years with no noticeable degradation! I think most of the other folks like Davis RF and DXE etc. are selling the Synthetic Textiles product. Great stuff!! 73 Charlie, K4OTV -----Original Message----- From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 2:16 PM To: Topband at contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions I've been using that same size dacron rope ever since 1985 and keep reusing it. It's been in Louisiana, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana and now CT in -25 to 105 temps, hurricanes and incredibly close brushes with tornados, It's never broken once on me and I trust it still today. It's very durable and easy to use line. Gary KA1J > OTOH I decided Id rather have a 1000' reel and eliminate extra knots > and went with Davis RF and a 1000' spool of 3/16 Dacron at $130 and > $15 shipping (they are in NH). Specs appear to be the same or close enough for my needs. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From w8ji at w8ji.com Fri Sep 5 07:25:43 2014 From: w8ji at w8ji.com (Tom W8JI) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 07:25:43 -0400 Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff References: <1022828630.81887524.1409852402093.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> Message-ID: <56720570D7664AFD9FCFCB74BE91D999@MAIN> Preform comes from the name of a major grip manufacturer, not from "tower apes". http://www.preformed.com/ Dead end is the termination style of grip. http://www.preformed.com/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=category&id=15&Itemid=145 The normal "Guy Grip dead end" is typically used on any shorter length guy line that does not have rotational or twisting forces, and they are normally are rated at 100% of stand breaking strength (but you should check the catalog specs because some are less). The "Big Grip dead end" is the Prefomed Line Products name for the longer grips, and are better for longer guy runs that might twist. PLP manufactures custom grips that are not cataloged. PLP would probably be a better place for application advice than Ham tower parts vendors (who sell some pretty sketchy stuff at times) or Ham reflectors. :) Every tower failure I have seen has come from incorrectly installed guy strand, saddle clamps, or anchors. I've seen towers where people splice guy lines with dead ends looped through dead ends! It's common to see someone worry enough to buy extra long grips (which doesn't do much for strength), and then not worry about radius inside the loop (which just kills the strength). From km1h at jeremy.mv.com Fri Sep 5 09:43:39 2014 From: km1h at jeremy.mv.com (Carl) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 09:43:39 -0400 Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff - please be safe References: <1063554107.82081710.1409861635564.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> <8EC3A1A3-B31B-41E8-8380-C7D7CCACB9EF@cableone.net> <7432747A019F4A2A8DC0D80104BD66E1@laptop> Message-ID: Sounds like a lot of Nervous Nellie knee knocking to me Tim. Caution within reason is a good thing, understanding that all Rohn tower specs plus PLP and other hardware providers are extremely conservative has to be considered also. Going overboard with disaster predictions does nobody any good. First of all Im only going to 90' of 25G where 3/16 is the Rohn spec and Im going to 1/4". The tower will be lightly loaded, by my standards, and even grips that are 2" shorter will have far more holding power than the tower calls for. All my towers use Rohn guy brackets with torque arms, none of the Hammy Hambone method of wrapping the guy around a tower leg. The difference between properly tensioned 3/16 and 1/4" guys on 25 and 45G is immediately felt as the tower is much more stable feeling with the latter; especially when muscling around heavy stuff at the top and/or with 2 people. My 180' 45G has been up since 1990 and the Rohn spec is still for 3/16. Im using 1/4 with the guy anchors at the full Rohn spec distance. For added safety I used the proper size guy clamp near the end of each grip as recommended by a REAL tower professional who I used to assist on 300-600' work. The tower also sits on a pier pin so the guys do all the work. As you and many others know Im on top of the highest hill in 20+ miles and subject to intense hill effect updraft winds plus numerous nor'easters, micobursts, high speed T storms, Cat 1-2 hurricanes plus general unamed coastal storms with hurricane class gusts. The ocean is 20-30 miles from here over a wide azimuth and it is all downhill from here. Im also known for exceeding Rohn loading specs as far back as the 60's. For several years here the 180' had a 4/4 KLM 4el 40 plus 4/4/4/4 PV-4's (40' booms) on 20. The only damage was keeping the top KLM from breaking element to boom insulators. The pier pin and oversized 1/4 guys did exactly what I intended. The 100' 25G was also overloaded with 10 and 15M stacks plus 2M and 222MHz pairs of long booms. Those two towers also have 22' chrome moly masts. The above is Real World Testimonial. Carl KM1H > Be very careful with "real world" testimonials - giving advice to use > products for the wrong application is really dangerous. We are talking > about > serious tower projects that can turn fatal if you use the wrong equipment. > I > don't care how high the tower is. PLEASE USE THE RIGHT STUFF! > > If anyone uses the wrong tower hardware and does not have problems or does > not get killed, I call that "luck". Do you want to bet your life on luck? > > Use the EXACT product that is specifically designed for tower > applications. > Do not take short cuts! Pay attention to the tower, guy wire and antenna > manufactures instructions. Tower guy wires are special. Talk to a > professional mechanical engineer with tower engineering experience, he > will > tell you. There is a reason there are two different PLP products for two > very different applications. > > Every year several Hams are killed in tower accidents because they took > short cuts, bad chances or tried to save money - or worst of all, they got > bad advice. What is your life or one of your friend's lives worth? > > Have you ever gone to a funeral of a tower climber? > I have - and it changed my life forever. > > PLEASE BE SAFE > > 73, > Tim K3LR > > -----Original Message----- > From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Cecil > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 10:44 PM > To: donovanf at starpower.net > Cc: Carl; topband at contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > Have been for the last 7 years...no issues at all. The tower products are > just an adaptation of products used in the power distribution business for > years. I work for an electric utility, one of the largest in the US. > I've > seen both products and see no difference in their design. The preformed > line products grips are used to guy transmission towers on a routine > basis. > We also use them to support fiber optic cables on distribution and > transmission structures. > > I chose the PLP grips for my 65' tower...they were a good bit cheaper. > > I also used screw down anchors for my guy points...the ones used in the > electrical distribution business. Bigger plates, galvanized instead of > painted and heavier duty....for less money. > > > But it is a personal choice.... > > Cecil > K5DL > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Sep 4, 2014, at 3:13 PM, donovanf at starpower.net wrote: >> >> Hi Carl, >> >> Preformed Line Products says: ""Guy-Grip Dead-ends are intended for >> use on single wood poles associated with distribution construction." >> >> If you examine the Rohn tower hardware catalog, they list only Big Grips, >> never a mention of using wood pole Guy Grips on any of their towers >> >> For a few dollars more you can use the BG-2144 Big Grip product >> recommended by the manufacturer for use on towers. >> >> Use Guy Grips for wood poles at your own risk... >> >> 73 >> Frank >> W3LPL >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Carl" >> To: donovanf at starpower.net, "Bill Wichers" >> Cc: topband at contesting.com >> Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 7:14:00 PM >> Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff >> >> Not according to the folks that invented them Frank. The Big Grip is a >> Guy > >> Grip for serious towers. >> >> > http://www.preformed.com/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_phocadownload%26view%3Dcat > egory%26download%3D44:plp-commcatsec20-2012%26id%3D15:strand-and-cable-produ > cts%26Itemid%3D145&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=nqoIVJWDDcmayAT5hoHQDA&ved= > 0CBQQFjAA&sig2=1aPQDpfnvYFm8XWlxXxgjw&usg=AFQjCNEns72sjImeKDRibuLmm62WL9bSqA >> >> The Preform name is often used as a noun by cable apes (-; >> >> Carl >> KM1H >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: "Bill Wichers" >> Cc: "Carl" ; >> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 1:40 PM >> Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff >> >> >>> Tower guys should use Big Grips, not the performs used by electric >>> utilities. You can purchase Big Grips from Texas Towers and many other >>> suppliers >>> >>> 73 >>> Frank >>> W3LPL >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Bill Wichers <billw at waveform.net> >>> To: Carl <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>, topband at contesting.com >>> Sent: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:31:07 -0400 (EDT) >>> Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff >>> >>> If you only need a few like this, try calling some of the utility >>> contractors in your area. They will always have the dead ends and the > guys >>> that also do the power work will also have the insulators. They will >>> probably be able to sell you a few without too much trouble. >>> >>> BTW, the utility guys will usually call the "dead ends" "preforms" >>> (different industry, different terminology :-), but they are the same >>> thing. The telco/cable guys use 1/4" EHS strand for a support line for >>> their cables so they will always have hardware for that. The preforms >>> are > >>> cheap enough from the crew's perspective that they are occasionally used >>> as temporary "twist ties" to hole up cable prior to lashing. >>> >>> You can order the stuff from Graybar too (probably the telecom division, >>> but the power division can get stuff too), but I don't know about their >>> prices. I've only ever ordered by the carton at work. >>> >>> -Bill >>> >>> > What I need is: >>> > >>> > Up to 12 502 guy insulators >>> > Up to 18 1/4" deadends/guy grips >>> > >>> > Individually prices from dealers is ridiculous and I dont need case >>> loads as I >>> > bought when building the other 3 towers in 90-91 and wound up >>> giving > >>> away >>> > what I didnt use. >>> > >>> > Any help appreciated. >>> > >>> > Carl >>> > KM1H >>> > >>> > _________________ >>> > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >>> _________________ >>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8153 - Release Date: >>> 09/04/14 >> >> >> _________________ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8155 - Release Date: 09/04/14 > From km1h at jeremy.mv.com Fri Sep 5 10:46:37 2014 From: km1h at jeremy.mv.com (Carl) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 10:46:37 -0400 Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff References: <1022828630.81887524.1409852402093.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> <56720570D7664AFD9FCFCB74BE91D999@MAIN> Message-ID: > Preform comes from the name of a major grip manufacturer, not from "tower > apes". > http://www.preformed.com/ ** Which has never been denied by anyone in this discussion. OTOH linemen and other strand installers use it as a general description thus my tower ape terminology. > > > Dead end is the termination style of grip. > http://www.preformed.com/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=category&id=15&Itemid=145 > ** Also previously discussed > > The normal "Guy Grip dead end" is typically used on any shorter length guy > line that does not have rotational or twisting forces, and they are > normally are rated at 100% of stand breaking strength (but you should > check the catalog specs because some are less). ** As are the Big Grips rated at strand strength. > > The "Big Grip dead end" is the Prefomed Line Products name for the longer > grips, and are better for longer guy runs that might twist. > > PLP manufactures custom grips that are not cataloged. PLP would probably > be a better place for application advice than Ham tower parts vendors (who > sell some pretty sketchy stuff at times) or Ham reflectors. :) ** PLP marketing is aimed at commercial and industrial applications and not hobbiests. Their idea of a radio tower starts where most ham versions let off. > Every tower failure I have seen has come from incorrectly installed guy > strand, saddle clamps, or anchors. I've seen towers where people splice > guy lines with dead ends looped through dead ends! ** Ive even seen some with RatShak guy wire which is maybe 1/8. Ive never used an inline splice either. It's common to see someone > worry enough to buy extra long grips (which doesn't do much for strength), > > and then not worry about radius inside the loop (which just kills the > strength). ** Good points Carl KM1H > > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8155 - Release Date: 09/04/14 > From w3ea at hotmail.com Fri Sep 5 13:16:35 2014 From: w3ea at hotmail.com (Wayne Kline) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 13:16:35 -0400 Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff In-Reply-To: References: <1022828630.81887524.1409852402093.JavaMail.root@starpower.net>, <56720570D7664AFD9FCFCB74BE91D999@MAIN>, Message-ID: Just my .02 Some call them Tomatoes some call them Tomottos but even those fruits come in different size and texture . When I built my station @ this QTH 4 guyed towers with broken up guys 502 insulators and a PRE Formed guy Fasteners . A fellow FRC member had a source for 5000' rolls of 1/4 Strand and 502 insulators and these GUY grips that are used in the Cable industry... from pole to pole to support the cable. These grips had the 4 twisted wire with yellow tag I had access to the Quality Control Lab @ the Mack Trucks test lab, We first tested Rohn 1/4 EHS. to facilitate the pull I installed 3 Press furls on each end all test were repeated 2X The EHS began to stretch twist and fracture @ 9K and fail @ 10.2K lb pull Rohn PLP BIG GRIP (5) strand , with a length of 1/4 EHS and the same furl at the end never failed with the EHS stretching and failing at 11 + K lb pull now the Shorter 4 strand twist yellow tagged with the same length EHS ( 16" exposed if my memory serves me ) This to never Failed and the 1/4 EHS both times failing . We painted layout dye on the 1/4 ehs/grip ends looking for pull out NONE was found on either DEAD END the guy grip loop end was around a solid 1 .250 rod to mimic a 502 or Rohn tower leg or HD thimble. I tried Thimbles but the press destroyed them in the clamp down securing phase . Conclusion .... 4 towers 180 plus guy grips All 4 strand DEAD End type and 25 years and all A - OK... I even caught a lower level guy on my ROPS bolt on my BIG tractor pulling so hard till I got to stop it Ripped the joint open and bent it 70 degree on ROHN 25 !!!! AND DID NOT FAIL..... It's length was 73' with two 502's attached directly to the tower leg and three way equalizer plate. MY .02 > From: km1h at jeremy.mv.com > To: w8ji at w8ji.com; topband at contesting.com > Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 10:46:37 -0400 > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > > Preform comes from the name of a major grip manufacturer, not from "tower > > apes". > > http://www.preformed.com/ > > ** Which has never been denied by anyone in this discussion. OTOH linemen > and other strand installers use it as a general description thus my tower > ape terminology. > > > > > > > Dead end is the termination style of grip. > > http://www.preformed.com/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=category&id=15&Itemid=145 > > > > ** Also previously discussed > > > > > The normal "Guy Grip dead end" is typically used on any shorter length guy > > line that does not have rotational or twisting forces, and they are > > normally are rated at 100% of stand breaking strength (but you should > > check the catalog specs because some are less). > > ** As are the Big Grips rated at strand strength. > > > > > > The "Big Grip dead end" is the Prefomed Line Products name for the longer > > grips, and are better for longer guy runs that might twist. > > > > PLP manufactures custom grips that are not cataloged. PLP would probably > > be a better place for application advice than Ham tower parts vendors (who > > sell some pretty sketchy stuff at times) or Ham reflectors. :) > > > ** PLP marketing is aimed at commercial and industrial applications and not > hobbiests. Their idea of a radio tower starts where most ham versions let > off. > > > > > Every tower failure I have seen has come from incorrectly installed guy > > strand, saddle clamps, or anchors. I've seen towers where people splice > > guy lines with dead ends looped through dead ends! > > > ** Ive even seen some with RatShak guy wire which is maybe 1/8. Ive never > used an inline splice either. > > > It's common to see someone > > worry enough to buy extra long grips (which doesn't do much for strength), > > > and then not worry about radius inside the loop (which just kills the > > strength). > > > ** Good points > > Carl > KM1H > > > > > > > > _________________ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8155 - Release Date: 09/04/14 > > > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From w8ji at w8ji.com Fri Sep 5 14:22:41 2014 From: w8ji at w8ji.com (Tom W8JI) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 14:22:41 -0400 Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff References: <1022828630.81887524.1409852402093.JavaMail.root@starpower.net>, <56720570D7664AFD9FCFCB74BE91D999@MAIN>, Message-ID: I would expect the regular grip to not fail, as you tested, because it is rated at 100% of 1/4 inch EHS breaking strength. Normally companies will not rate it that way without a huge safety margin. The somewhat longer "big grip" styles, according to PLP, were only for added protection in cases where the guy lines had twisting or unwrapping issues. It was never even available in 1/4 inch until tower companies started selling it. The real danger is in doing things seriously wrong, like putting the loop over something with inadequate radius. I've seen some pretty poor installations. Some installers slip the loop over the tower leg, or worse yet, over the leg plus a brace rod end. The rod puts a real sharp bump against the grip. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Kline To: Carl ; JI Charles ; low bad reflector Sent: Friday, September 05, 2014 1:16 PM Subject: RE: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff Just my .02 Some call them Tomatoes some call them Tomottos but even those fruits come in different size and texture . When I built my station @ this QTH 4 guyed towers with broken up guys 502 insulators and a PRE Formed guy Fasteners . A fellow FRC member had a source for 5000' rolls of 1/4 Strand and 502 insulators and these GUY grips that are used in the Cable industry... from pole to pole to support the cable. These grips had the 4 twisted wire with yellow tag I had access to the Quality Control Lab @ the Mack Trucks test lab, We first tested Rohn 1/4 EHS. to facilitate the pull I installed 3 Press furls on each end all test were repeated 2X The EHS began to stretch twist and fracture @ 9K and fail @ 10.2K lb pull Rohn PLP BIG GRIP (5) strand , with a length of 1/4 EHS and the same furl at the end never failed with the EHS stretching and failing at 11 + K lb pull now the Shorter 4 strand twist yellow tagged with the same length EHS ( 16" exposed if my memory serves me ) This to never Failed and the 1/4 EHS both times failing . We painted layout dye on the 1/4 ehs/grip ends looking for pull out NONE was found on either DEAD END the guy grip loop end was around a solid 1 .250 rod to mimic a 502 or Rohn tower leg or HD thimble. I tried Thimbles but the press destroyed them in the clamp down securing phase . Conclusion .... 4 towers 180 plus guy grips All 4 strand DEAD End type and 25 years and all A - OK... I even caught a lower level guy on my ROPS bolt on my BIG tractor pulling so hard till I got to stop it Ripped the joint open and bent it 70 degree on ROHN 25 !!!! AND DID NOT FAIL..... It's length was 73' with two 502's attached directly to the tower leg and three way equalizer plate. MY .02 > From: km1h at jeremy.mv.com > To: w8ji at w8ji.com; topband at contesting.com > Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 10:46:37 -0400 > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > > Preform comes from the name of a major grip manufacturer, not from "tower > > apes". > > http://www.preformed.com/ > > ** Which has never been denied by anyone in this discussion. OTOH linemen > and other strand installers use it as a general description thus my tower > ape terminology. > > > > > > > Dead end is the termination style of grip. > > http://www.preformed.com/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=category&id=15&Itemid=145 > > > > ** Also previously discussed > > > > > The normal "Guy Grip dead end" is typically used on any shorter length guy > > line that does not have rotational or twisting forces, and they are > > normally are rated at 100% of stand breaking strength (but you should > > check the catalog specs because some are less). > > ** As are the Big Grips rated at strand strength. > > > > > > The "Big Grip dead end" is the Prefomed Line Products name for the longer > > grips, and are better for longer guy runs that might twist. > > > > PLP manufactures custom grips that are not cataloged. PLP would probably > > be a better place for application advice than Ham tower parts vendors (who > > sell some pretty sketchy stuff at times) or Ham reflectors. :) > > > ** PLP marketing is aimed at commercial and industrial applications and not > hobbiests. Their idea of a radio tower starts where most ham versions let > off. > > > > > Every tower failure I have seen has come from incorrectly installed guy > > strand, saddle clamps, or anchors. I've seen towers where people splice > > guy lines with dead ends looped through dead ends! > > > ** Ive even seen some with RatShak guy wire which is maybe 1/8. Ive never > used an inline splice either. > > > It's common to see someone > > worry enough to buy extra long grips (which doesn't do much for strength), > > > and then not worry about radius inside the loop (which just kills the > > strength). > > > ** Good points > > Carl > KM1H > > > > > > > > _________________ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8155 - Release Date: 09/04/14 > > > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8159 - Release Date: 09/05/14 From w3ea at hotmail.com Fri Sep 5 16:46:24 2014 From: w3ea at hotmail.com (Wayne Kline) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 16:46:24 -0400 Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff In-Reply-To: References: <1022828630.81887524.1409852402093.JavaMail.root@starpower.net>, , <56720570D7664AFD9FCFCB74BE91D999@MAIN>, , , , Message-ID: > The real danger is in doing things seriously wrong, like putting the loop over something with inadequate radius. I've seen some pretty poor installations. Some installers slip the loop over the tower leg, or worse yet, over the leg plus a brace rod end. The rod puts a real sharp bump against the grip. > > > > IMHO you hit the nail on the HEAD...... with either material used..... Did a job on Rohn 45 with torque arm assemblies the installer/Ham did not use any thimbles in the torque arm eyelets or on the top triangular flat plate.... IT's unnerving when you adjust your lanyard over a set of torque arms and see only HALF of the guy grip remaining and rusted broken strands staring you in the face..... @ 45' and the top set was worse from axial twisting . but we had fixed the lower set B-4 I climbed up there ... Wayne W3EA From km1h at jeremy.mv.com Sat Sep 6 10:30:43 2014 From: km1h at jeremy.mv.com (Carl) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 10:30:43 -0400 Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff References: <1022828630.81887524.1409852402093.JavaMail.root@starpower.net>, <56720570D7664AFD9FCFCB74BE91D999@MAIN>, Message-ID: Thanks for that nice report Wayne. Those are the same Grips Im using here. I dont know about these days but when I was installing the 4 towers here I was informed that Rohn EHS was made in Korea as was just about all the utility and CATV strand. Rohn just added a premium cost to it. When this town was cabled I got literally miles of left over 1/4 EHS and hardline from 1/2 to 7/8 for a couple of cases of beer. I used my 2 axle race car trailer to move it. The installers had already been paid and dont transport but very little extra and besides their next job was in OH....real gypsies and higher than a kite most of the time. Carl KM1H ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Kline To: Carl ; JI Charles ; low bad reflector Sent: Friday, September 05, 2014 1:16 PM Subject: RE: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff Just my .02 Some call them Tomatoes some call them Tomottos but even those fruits come in different size and texture . When I built my station @ this QTH 4 guyed towers with broken up guys 502 insulators and a PRE Formed guy Fasteners . A fellow FRC member had a source for 5000' rolls of 1/4 Strand and 502 insulators and these GUY grips that are used in the Cable industry... from pole to pole to support the cable. These grips had the 4 twisted wire with yellow tag I had access to the Quality Control Lab @ the Mack Trucks test lab, We first tested Rohn 1/4 EHS. to facilitate the pull I installed 3 Press furls on each end all test were repeated 2X The EHS began to stretch twist and fracture @ 9K and fail @ 10.2K lb pull Rohn PLP BIG GRIP (5) strand , with a length of 1/4 EHS and the same furl at the end never failed with the EHS stretching and failing at 11 + K lb pull now the Shorter 4 strand twist yellow tagged with the same length EHS ( 16" exposed if my memory serves me ) This to never Failed and the 1/4 EHS both times failing . We painted layout dye on the 1/4 ehs/grip ends looking for pull out NONE was found on either DEAD END the guy grip loop end was around a solid 1 .250 rod to mimic a 502 or Rohn tower leg or HD thimble. I tried Thimbles but the press destroyed them in the clamp down securing phase . Conclusion .... 4 towers 180 plus guy grips All 4 strand DEAD End type and 25 years and all A - OK... I even caught a lower level guy on my ROPS bolt on my BIG tractor pulling so hard till I got to stop it Ripped the joint open and bent it 70 degree on ROHN 25 !!!! AND DID NOT FAIL..... It's length was 73' with two 502's attached directly to the tower leg and three way equalizer plate. MY .02 > From: km1h at jeremy.mv.com > To: w8ji at w8ji.com; topband at contesting.com > Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 10:46:37 -0400 > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > > Preform comes from the name of a major grip manufacturer, not from "tower > > apes". > > http://www.preformed.com/ > > ** Which has never been denied by anyone in this discussion. OTOH linemen > and other strand installers use it as a general description thus my tower > ape terminology. > > > > > > > Dead end is the termination style of grip. > > http://www.preformed.com/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=category&id=15&Itemid=145 > > > > ** Also previously discussed > > > > > The normal "Guy Grip dead end" is typically used on any shorter length guy > > line that does not have rotational or twisting forces, and they are > > normally are rated at 100% of stand breaking strength (but you should > > check the catalog specs because some are less). > > ** As are the Big Grips rated at strand strength. > > > > > > The "Big Grip dead end" is the Prefomed Line Products name for the longer > > grips, and are better for longer guy runs that might twist. > > > > PLP manufactures custom grips that are not cataloged. PLP would probably > > be a better place for application advice than Ham tower parts vendors (who > > sell some pretty sketchy stuff at times) or Ham reflectors. :) > > > ** PLP marketing is aimed at commercial and industrial applications and not > hobbiests. Their idea of a radio tower starts where most ham versions let > off. > > > > > Every tower failure I have seen has come from incorrectly installed guy > > strand, saddle clamps, or anchors. I've seen towers where people splice > > guy lines with dead ends looped through dead ends! > > > ** Ive even seen some with RatShak guy wire which is maybe 1/8. Ive never > used an inline splice either. > > > It's common to see someone > > worry enough to buy extra long grips (which doesn't do much for strength), > > > and then not worry about radius inside the loop (which just kills the > > strength). > > > ** Good points > > Carl > KM1H > > > > > > > > _________________ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8155 - Release Date: 09/04/14 > > > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8159 - Release Date: 09/05/14 From w3ea at hotmail.com Sat Sep 6 18:00:56 2014 From: w3ea at hotmail.com (Wayne Kline) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 18:00:56 -0400 Subject: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff In-Reply-To: References: <1022828630.81887524.1409852402093.JavaMail.root@starpower.net>, <56720570D7664AFD9FCFCB74BE91D999@MAIN>, , Message-ID: Hi Carl Yes it seems that we stumbles across the same Crew :) . No not really but the same experience. The " Strand" what they called it ran from pole to pole or was used as down guy pole wires when the ENG. required it for the extra pole line capacity. Because I was breaking up my guys . I had access to all the STUMP spools of strand. These were one's that they perceived to be less then 200 Feet, the distance between poles. I also given a full 5000 ft. roll that was dropped and the wooden side was broken off. So they would not even TRY to cart it for installation. So being a Ham you never know what scrounging my turn up.... And I don't want to talk about all the CATV line YIKES Wayne W3EA . . From: km1h at jeremy.mv. Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 10:30:43 -0400 Thanks for that nice report Wayne. Those are the same Grips Im using here. I dont know about these days but when I was installing the 4 towers here I was informed that Rohn EHS was made in Korea as was just about all the utility and CATV strand. Rohn just added a premium cost to it. When this town was cabled I got literally miles of left over 1/4 EHS and hardline from 1/2 to 7/8 for a couple of cases of beer. I used my 2 axle race car trailer to move it. The installers had already been paid and dont transport but very little extra and besides their next job was in OH....real gypsies and higher than a kite most of the time. From km1h at jeremy.mv.com Sat Sep 6 18:08:55 2014 From: km1h at jeremy.mv.com (Carl) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 18:08:55 -0400 Subject: Topband: Big tower References: <1022828630.81887524.1409852402093.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> <56720570D7664AFD9FCFCB74BE91D999@MAIN> Message-ID: <010BB1768F624D069B74E929E1817B9E@computer1> So who will be the first to build this for that 160M 3 el yagi and maybe a 5 el for 80 at some lower height? There has to be a few with that much money and huge ego. http://mortenson.wistia.com/medias/tejnwpitig Carl From garyk9gs at wi.rr.com Sat Sep 6 21:43:33 2014 From: garyk9gs at wi.rr.com (Gary K9GS) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2014 20:43:33 -0500 Subject: Topband: Big tower In-Reply-To: <010BB1768F624D069B74E929E1817B9E@computer1> References: <1022828630.81887524.1409852402093.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> <56720570D7664AFD9FCFCB74BE91D999@MAIN> <010BB1768F624D069B74E929E1817B9E@computer1> Message-ID: <540BB845.7060003@wi.rr.com> I haven't seen this yet. It's about an hour North of my QTH in SE Wisconsin. It has been all over the news. Hard to imagine 680 yards of concrete. On 9/6/2014 5:08 PM, Carl wrote: > So who will be the first to build this for that 160M 3 el yagi and > maybe a 5 el for 80 at some lower height? > > There has to be a few with that much money and huge ego. > > http://mortenson.wistia.com/medias/tejnwpitig > > Carl > > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > -- > 73, > > Gary K9GS > > Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org > Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com > CW Ops #1032 http://www.cwops.org > > ************************************************ --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From andrzej_aeg at interia.pl Sun Sep 7 04:02:53 2014 From: andrzej_aeg at interia.pl (Andrzej_SP6AEG) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2014 10:02:53 +0200 Subject: Topband: SP5QQ Message-ID: <71918EEC57A349C39F9372BBBDEE9C8A@andy> Dear friends, if someone has a Ham radio amateur call book in 1960 and 1961?. I'm interested in whether these editions is a sign SP5QQ?. Thank you for your help Andy SP6AEG --- Ta wiadomo?? e-mail jest wolna od wirus?w i z?o?liwego oprogramowania, poniewa? ochrona avast! Antivirus jest aktywna. http://www.avast.com From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Sun Sep 7 16:00:04 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2014 13:00:04 -0700 Subject: Topband: Rig Comparisons For Transmitted Noise Message-ID: <540CB944.8040804@audiosystemsgroup.com> Over the last decade or so, Rob Sherwood's extensive work on receiver performance has done much to improve the receivers in modern rigs, but transmitters have been sadly neglected. A month or so ago I began work on a project to compare ARRL test data for selected rigs, focusing on the trash they generate. I shared an early version of that work on the Elecraft reflector, and it seems to have found it's way to Yaesu, who has just put new firmware on their website to improve the CW waveform. I've done a lot of work on the piece since then, and it's near its final form. If you're thinking about buying a new rig, it should give lots of food for thought. As I read FCC Rules, this report shows that an operator using many modern rigs would be in violation of 97.307 (a) and (b). http://k9yc.com/TXNoise.pdf Also, if you haven't already done so, see the slides for K6XX's excellent presentation on Signal Cleanliness, which, among other things, shows how we can set up and operate our existing rigs to produce a cleaner signal. k9yc.com/K6XXAmpTalk.pdf 73, Jim K9YC From w8wej at citynet.net Sun Sep 7 20:30:46 2014 From: w8wej at citynet.net (john) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2014 00:30:46 +0000 Subject: Topband: Big tower In-Reply-To: <540BB845.7060003@wi.rr.com> References: <1022828630.81887524.1409852402093.JavaMail.root@starpower.net> <56720570D7664AFD9FCFCB74BE91D999@MAIN> <010BB1768F624D069B74E929E1817B9E@computer1> <540BB845.7060003@wi.rr.com> Message-ID: <540CF8B6.4000600@citynet.net> I viewed this in awe-- I believe ego had nothing to do with this,,,,pride and humility, yes--God Bless America In this day and age, such as it is,,, we need much more, for the Vets, thank you so much... John w8wej On 9/7/2014 01:43, Gary K9GS wrote: > I haven't seen this yet. It's about an hour North of my QTH in SE > Wisconsin. It has been all over the news. > Hard to imagine 680 yards of concrete. > > > On 9/6/2014 5:08 PM, Carl wrote: >> So who will be the first to build this for that 160M 3 el yagi and >> maybe a 5 el for 80 at some lower height? >> >> There has to be a few with that much money and huge ego. >> >> http://mortenson.wistia.com/medias/tejnwpitig >> >> Carl >> >> >> _________________ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> >> >> -- >> 73, >> >> Gary K9GS >> >> Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org >> Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com >> CW Ops #1032 http://www.cwops.org >> >> ************************************************ > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > From topband at contesting.com Mon Sep 8 08:35:08 2014 From: topband at contesting.com (rich kennedy via Topband) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2014 05:35:08 -0700 Subject: Topband: 160M loading coil mounting/orientation Message-ID: <1410179708.32285.YahooMailNeo@web120101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> When base-mounting a loading coil (inductor) on a shortened monopole vertical, is there a preferred method for the physical placement of the coil? Is it better to orient the coil in the vertical axis, horizontal axis; very close to the radiator element or a number of feet away; positioned close to ground level or elevated (such as on a mounting post ~ 3 feet above ground)? Assume freq = 1.83 mHz; H = 70 feet aluminum; soil = average to good; small capacitive hat (spokes, 5? diameter). thanks, 73, Rich, K3VAT From topband at contesting.com Mon Sep 8 08:35:08 2014 From: topband at contesting.com (rich kennedy via Topband) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2014 05:35:08 -0700 Subject: Topband: 160M loading coil mounting/orientation Message-ID: <1410179708.32285.YahooMailNeo@web120101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> When base-mounting a loading coil (inductor) on a shortened monopole vertical, is there a preferred method for the physical placement of the coil? Is it better to orient the coil in the vertical axis, horizontal axis; very close to the radiator element or a number of feet away; positioned close to ground level or elevated (such as on a mounting post ~ 3 feet above ground)? Assume freq = 1.83 mHz; H = 70 feet aluminum; soil = average to good; small capacitive hat (spokes, 5? diameter). thanks, 73, Rich, K3VAT From shristov at ptt.rs Mon Sep 8 09:06:59 2014 From: shristov at ptt.rs (shristov) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2014 15:06:59 +0200 Subject: Topband: 160M loading coil mounting/orientation In-Reply-To: <1410179708.32285.YahooMailNeo@web120101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1410179708.32285.YahooMailNeo@web120101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: rich kennedy via Topband wrote: > When base-mounting a loading coil (inductor) on a shortened > monopole vertical, is there a preferred method for the physical > placement of the coil?? Is it better to orient the coil in > the vertical axis, horizontal axis; very close to the radiator > element or a number of feet away; positioned close to ground > level or elevated (such as on a mounting post ~ 3 feet above ground)? > Assume freq = 1.83 mHz; H = 70 feet aluminum; soil = average to > good; small capacitive hat (spokes, 5? diameter). Orientation doesn't matter. Place it as you would place any other inductor, i.e. 1-2 coil diameters away from other metallic objects, and from soil. Protect it from elements, and that's it. 73, Sinisa YT1NT, VE3EA From fdavis at nfld.net Mon Sep 8 10:18:33 2014 From: fdavis at nfld.net (Frank Davis) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2014 11:48:33 -0230 Subject: Topband: Last Call TCI Log Antenna Coupler Message-ID: Available for a song... its gotta go to a new home. TCI Model 537A-2-29 Antenna Coupler 7/8" input (50OHM) - output single wire 3KW Pictures available at: http://www.vo1hp.ca/vo1hp.ca/For_Sale.html Going real cheap -- Anybody want it?....if not it will have to go to the landfill. Frank VO1HP From grants2 at pacbell.net Mon Sep 8 11:21:04 2014 From: grants2 at pacbell.net (Grant Saviers) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2014 08:21:04 -0700 Subject: Topband: [Bulk] 160M loading coil mounting/orientation In-Reply-To: <1410179708.32285.YahooMailNeo@web120101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1410179708.32285.YahooMailNeo@web120101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <540DC960.1080004@pacbell.net> Have you checked the design with EZNEC? A little more top hat and you won't need a coil. I had an 80m top loaded 3" dia vertical 40' tall which resonated at 3.8MHz. A tweak of that model to 70' showed the 8 x 8 ft spokes at the top would resonate at 1.8MHZ, 33 ohms. A perimeter wire seems to help a lot for lowering the resonance according to the modeling, but was not in your antenna model. Grant KZ1W On 9/8/2014 5:35 AM, rich kennedy via Topband wrote: > When base-mounting a loading coil (inductor) on a shortened monopole vertical, is there a preferred method for the physical placement of the coil? Is it better to orient the coil in the vertical axis, horizontal axis; very close to the radiator element or a number of feet away; positioned close to ground level or elevated (such as on a mounting post ~ 3 feet above ground)? > Assume freq = 1.83 mHz; H = 70 feet aluminum; soil = average to good; small capacitive hat (spokes, 5? diameter). > thanks, 73, Rich, K3VAT > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From wrcromwell at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 11:21:48 2014 From: wrcromwell at gmail.com (Bill Cromwell) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2014 11:21:48 -0400 Subject: Topband: 160M loading coil mounting/orientation In-Reply-To: References: <1410179708.32285.YahooMailNeo@web120101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <540DC98C.3030902@gmail.com> The ones I have seen in mobile installations have the (rather large) coil mounted at the bottom of the vertical element with the vertical element rising up through the coil. So it's a coaxial arrangement with the coil outside and the vertical element inside. It sure seemed to work in that location. 73, Bill KU8H On 09/08/2014 09:06 AM, shristov wrote: > rich kennedy via Topband wrote: > >> When base-mounting a loading coil (inductor) on a shortened >> monopole vertical, is there a preferred method for the physical >> placement of the coil? Is it better to orient the coil in >> the vertical axis, horizontal axis; very close to the radiator >> element or a number of feet away; positioned close to ground >> level or elevated (such as on a mounting post ~ 3 feet above ground)? >> Assume freq = 1.83 mHz; H = 70 feet aluminum; soil = average to >> good; small capacitive hat (spokes, 5? diameter). > Orientation doesn't matter. > > Place it as you would place any other inductor, > i.e. 1-2 coil diameters away from other metallic objects, and from soil. > > Protect it from elements, and that's it. > > 73, > > Sinisa YT1NT, VE3EA > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From oddyen at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 17:50:31 2014 From: oddyen at gmail.com (LA8AW) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2014 23:50:31 +0200 Subject: Topband: SP5QQ In-Reply-To: <71918EEC57A349C39F9372BBBDEE9C8A@andy> References: <71918EEC57A349C39F9372BBBDEE9C8A@andy> Message-ID: Andy, This is not 1960/61, but my "Foreign Radio Amateur Callbook Magazine - Summer 1965" states as follows: SP5QQ RYSZARD GIRULSKI, SLUPECKA 4/72, WARSAW 73 de LA8AW - Odd-Egil _____________________ 73 de LA8AW - Odd-Egil _____________________ On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 10:02 AM, Andrzej_SP6AEG wrote: > Dear friends, if someone has a Ham radio amateur call book in 1960 and > 1961?. > > I'm interested in whether these editions is a sign SP5QQ?. > > > > Thank you for your help > > Andy > > SP6AEG > > > > --- > Ta wiadomo?? e-mail jest wolna od wirus?w i z?o?liwego oprogramowania, > poniewa? ochrona avast! Antivirus jest aktywna. > http://www.avast.com > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From la5he at otterstad.dk Tue Sep 9 02:58:22 2014 From: la5he at otterstad.dk (la5he at otterstad.dk) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 02:58:22 -0400 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions Message-ID: <380-2201492965822501@M2W127.mail2web.com> I have been using ropes used by Fishing boats/trawlers the past 10 years. THey seem to last " for ever " ! 73 Rag LA5HE -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web From la5he at otterstad.dk Tue Sep 9 02:58:53 2014 From: la5he at otterstad.dk (la5he at otterstad.dk) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 02:58:53 -0400 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions Message-ID: <380-2201492965853645@M2W125.mail2web.com> I have been using ropes used by Fishing boats/trawlers the past 10 years. THey seem to last " for ever " ! 73 Rag LA5HE -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint From edmund at dellafattoria.com Tue Sep 9 16:34:50 2014 From: edmund at dellafattoria.com (edmund weber) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 13:34:50 -0700 Subject: Topband: =?windows-1252?q?preserving_hemp_rope=85=3F?= Message-ID: <6F666B64-B0E0-4796-9FAF-8890154E1771@dellafattoria.com> Greetings to the Forum, I'm looking for opinions on the proper preservation of large diameter hemp rope. Auction fever took over during bidding on a 500' spool of 7/8'' Navy surplus material. I'd like to use it with a pair of large blocks and a couple of eucalyptus trees. What oils or chemicals would be appropriate for the job? What would be a realistic life expectancy ...and a ballpark working load? Thanks, Ed. KA6ZMI From k4kyv at hotmail.com Wed Sep 10 15:15:53 2014 From: k4kyv at hotmail.com (Donald Chester) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 19:15:53 +0000 Subject: Topband: =?windows-1252?q?=3A_preserving_hemp_rope=85=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>>>I'm looking for opinions on the proper preservation of large diameter hemp rope. Auction fever took over during bidding on a 500' spool of 7/8'' Navy surplus material. I'd like to use it with a pair of large blocks and a couple of eucalyptus trees. What oils or chemicals would be appropriate for the job? What would be a realistic life expectancy ...and a ballpark working load? Thanks, Ed. KA6ZMI>>>> I? have about a 300' roll of sisal rope, which like hemp is a natural fibre. I purchased it in 1980 to use with a gin pole to erect my 127' tower. I have kept it on a reel andstored in a dry place ever since. As far as I can tell it is still good as new, but less stiff that when I first got it; I have used it for a variety of other tasks since putting up the tower. I? don't think you would need to use anything to preserve the rope other than keeping it away from moisture and away from insects and rodents that might chew or eat on it. Mine is about 5/8" diameter. I don't know how it compares with hemp for strength, but I once used it to tow a pick-up truck, and it broke once along the way when the person driving the towing vehicle accelerated too hard.? I tied it back together, and tossed the broken piece when I got home, which was about 6' long. I dipped the ends in epoxy to keep them from unravelling. Don k4kyv From uaheinze at mmenterprisesllc.com Wed Sep 10 16:18:57 2014 From: uaheinze at mmenterprisesllc.com (Udo A. Heinze) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 15:18:57 -0500 Subject: Topband: Rig Comparisons For Transmitted Noise In-Reply-To: <540CB944.8040804@audiosystemsgroup.com> References: <540CB944.8040804@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <9FC85D493D10324CBE3158245AAE55A3098CD143D9@KIT.MMELLC.local> Very interesting comparison. Has anyone looked at the FT dx5000 after the firmware upgrade? I asked Yaesu about it and the tech support person who responded could provide no details on what the actual change was. A before and after oscilloscope pictorial would be great, if available. Udo NI0G -----Original Message----- From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Brown Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2014 3:00 PM To: 'TopBand' Subject: Topband: Rig Comparisons For Transmitted Noise Over the last decade or so, Rob Sherwood's extensive work on receiver performance has done much to improve the receivers in modern rigs, but transmitters have been sadly neglected. A month or so ago I began work on a project to compare ARRL test data for selected rigs, focusing on the trash they generate. I shared an early version of that work on the Elecraft reflector, and it seems to have found it's way to Yaesu, who has just put new firmware on their website to improve the CW waveform. I've done a lot of work on the piece since then, and it's near its final form. If you're thinking about buying a new rig, it should give lots of food for thought. As I read FCC Rules, this report shows that an operator using many modern rigs would be in violation of 97.307 (a) and (b). http://k9yc.com/TXNoise.pdf Also, if you haven't already done so, see the slides for K6XX's excellent presentation on Signal Cleanliness, which, among other things, shows how we can set up and operate our existing rigs to produce a cleaner signal. k9yc.com/K6XXAmpTalk.pdf 73, Jim K9YC _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From mikewate at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 19:26:31 2014 From: mikewate at gmail.com (Mike Waters) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 18:26:31 -0500 Subject: Topband: Anyone using WSPR or WSPR-X? In-Reply-To: <5404CB18.6070209@audiosystemsgroup.com> References: <54049286.7020506@w7iuv.com> <5404AEEA.7090904@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404B377.3040506@w7iuv.com> <5404BC06.7040209@audiosystemsgroup.com> <5404C939.8070708@w7iuv.com> <5404CB18.6070209@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: You might be interested in this post, Jim: http://owenduffy.net/blog/?p=2501 "... The Signalink USB turned out to be a disappointment for several reasons but the main one was that the noise floor was almost 20dB higher than an ordinary $10 Creative desktop sound card. ... "QST recently carried a modification which does improve the noise floor, in my case by 10dB. ... The modification reduced the noise floor from -71dBfs to -81dBfs, and although it is still high compared to a $10 creative sound card at -89dBfs..." I'd like to find out what Creative card that was, because I need a second sound card in my shack PC. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > On Mon,9/1/2014 12:30 PM, Larry wrote: > >> Be very careful about audio levels. >> > > Also, use a good A/D converter to get the RX audio into your computer. > Several good, inexpensive USB sound cards are listed on my website. > Switching from the mic input of my laptop to these units allowed me to > reliably decode signals 12 dB deeper into the noise on JT65. > > http://k9yc.com/USB_Interfaces.pdf > > 73, Jim K9YC > From jim.gmforum at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 01:15:26 2014 From: jim.gmforum at gmail.com (Jim GM) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 00:15:26 -0500 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions Message-ID: Flag companies use a rope with a Kevlar core and a nylon out side. Seams to be the best. Flag companies use a steel core rope as well with a nylon rope jacket but it rusts breaks apart and the nylon rope breaks apart with it. Nylon lasts a Long time but it stretches like a rubber band. Polypropylene even the black UV carbon type thats sun resistance has that 10 year life span sun just east it up. You can get a mixed Polypropylene nylon combination from Netting stores that sell commercial fishing net equipment, but even that the sun eats it up. -- Jim K9TF From edmund at dellafattoria.com Tue Sep 16 02:39:12 2014 From: edmund at dellafattoria.com (edmund weber) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:39:12 -0700 Subject: Topband: preserving hemp rope... Message-ID: Thanks to all who replied to my question regarding hemp rope preservation. Linseed oil was the choice, by far. The price for enough oil to treat 500+feet is a killer...so I'm thinking Thompson's Water Seal. Yes? or no? Tnx de KA6ZMI From fdavis at nfld.net Tue Sep 16 06:41:59 2014 From: fdavis at nfld.net (Frank Davis) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:11:59 -0230 Subject: Topband: Last Call TCI Log Antenna Coupler Message-ID: I am pleased to report that his item has been sold and shipped to Florida. Thanks to all who replied to the original post . I regret that I didn't reply to all as I lost track of the order of the emails that were coming in re the item. It has gone to a new home and avoided for now the landfill! 73 Frank VO1HP From hsvdds at juno.com Tue Sep 16 15:58:05 2014 From: hsvdds at juno.com (Hugh Valentine) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:58:05 GMT Subject: Topband: Tides and SWR Message-ID: <20140916.155805.495.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> This is preliminary, but just for an experiment and to satisfy my curiosity, I have made some basic measurements of the Bird Feeder's SWR and Resonant Frequency Changes as the tides move in and out.I am certainly not in possession of an Electrical Engineering degree. They ain't got none of them at Emory University. I was just lucky enough to learn a few tooth things. Maybe someone else has done this before. Bird Feeder=disguised Inverted "L" (35' Vertical, 95' Horizontal) on a seawall and the Feed point is at High Tide about 6" above salt water, and within a few inches horizontally from water. Don't make fun, it is all I got. We have 6-9 foot Tidal fluctuations here on the GA coast.Approx 16 Radials of varying lengths, some lay on the Marsh floor at Low tide, hooked into 8' Ground Rods 3' apart in the marsh floor, K9YC Balun at feed, but measurements were taken without the Balun. Approx 90' of RG213 to shack. Measurements w/ MFJ259B. At the FEED POINT of the Bird Feeder, LOW TIDE:1800 1.6:1 R=29 X=71825 1.6:1 R=29 X=01850 1.8:1 R=30 X=171875 2.2:1 R=30 X=301900 2.2:1 R=29 X=44 High Tide1775 2.3:1 R=34 X=331800 1.9:1 R=33 X=231825 1.6:1 R=32 X=81850 1.4:1 R=33 X=01875 1.6:1 R=34 X=121900 1.9:1 R=34 X=27 Conclusion: Hi-Tides raise the frequency of the minimum SWR point and raise the Radiation Resistance about 10%. In the shack, the Resonant Freq (Low SWR anyway) was around 1800khz @ 1.6:1 at Low Tide and was 1.2:1 at 1850 @ High tide. Just to solve my curiosity,( I always noted some variance from time to time in using a Tuner to make the SWR Flat at the Linear....) I now conclude the fluctuating water table changes Impedance and Resonance of the Antenna. Why and How, I will leave to those who know the basics and more. I just am sharing this observation, that is all. What to do with this information, I don't know. Maybe I now need a remote tuning device which is Tide Controlled. See you in the pileups with the lowest antenna on Top band this season.P.S. The Birdfeeder now comes in a New and Improved version using an LC circuit and Vacuum Relay to make it switchable 1/2 wave on 80M. The Tide also lowers SWR on 80M as well at high tides. ValN4RJ ____________________________________________________________ The #1 Worst Carb Ever? Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar (Don't Eat This!) http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/541896bd67d2516bd3bddst04vuc From hsvdds at juno.com Tue Sep 16 17:43:27 2014 From: hsvdds at juno.com (Hugh Valentine) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 21:43:27 GMT Subject: Topband: Tides and SWR Message-ID: <20140916.174327.15805.0@webmail08.vgs.untd.com> Here are a few photos:Link: http://n1bug.com/host/val/ ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Bill Wichers To: Hugh Valentine Subject: RE: Topband: Tides and SWR Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 20:17:35 +0000 You could make a simple adjustable piston-type capacitor with some nested pieces of PVC pipe and a float. I don't know if you'd actually want to try that, but it would probably be a fairly simple mechanism to implement. Personally, I think a motor-driven arrangement would be better so that you wouldn't be at the mercy of the tide. Interesting info too -- thanks for sharing. I would not have guessed at the amount of difference you're seeing between high and low tide. Do you have a pic of this antenna somewhere? IT would help to get an idea of the arrangement for anyone trying to determine the "why" to your changes. -Bill > with this information, I don't know. Maybe I now need a r > > emote tuning device which is Tide Controlled. See you in the pileups with > the lowest antenna on Top band this season.P.S. The Birdfeeder now comes > in a New and Improved version using an LC circuit and Vacuum Relay to make > it switchable 1/2 wave on 80M. The Tide also lowers SWR on 80M as well at > high tides. ValN4RJ ____________________________________________________________ The End of the "Made-In-China" Era The impossible (but real) technology that could make you impossibly rich. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5418af444e0f62f441b45st01vuc From topband at contesting.com Tue Sep 16 22:21:02 2014 From: topband at contesting.com (Rod via Topband) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:21:02 -0700 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions Message-ID: <1410920462.70783.YahooMailNeo@web163804.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have been using Synthetic Textiles UV resistant double-braided Dacron/polyester antenna rope on a variety of wire antennas for over 20 years: http://www.dxengineering.com/search/product-line/synthetic-textile-industries-antenna-support-rope In comes in several strength ratings to suit the project and lasts for years. 73, Rod - WN8R From jim.gmforum at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 14:38:14 2014 From: jim.gmforum at gmail.com (Jim GM) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 13:38:14 -0500 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions Message-ID: In about 7 years that Dacron stuff starts to dry out and comes apart slowly, Rots it in water like rain gutters. I have seen some guys use this Space Walk gray tethering cord for fling big kites 120 square feet of sail and bigger. Not sure of the composition and how UV resistant it is. Has a very high Tensile strength for how small it is. Not sure what they call it. -- Jim K9TF From mapa50 at windstream.net Wed Sep 17 15:52:49 2014 From: mapa50 at windstream.net (mapa50 at windstream.net) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:52:49 -0500 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20140917155249.U47FF.14408.root@pamxwww04-z01> I have noticed a wide range of experience that people are reporting on the life of the black braided Dacron polyester rope. I have had extremely good life and strength use on a wide range of antennas and other uses, such as holding a cover on a 24 ft. diameter above ground pool. The pool was put in in 1982 and removed 2 years ago. The rope is still fine after all that time. It was in and under pool water for 7 to 8 months each year. I have a TH3mkIII Hygain beam that has been up on a mast at 45 ft since 1983 using 3/8" Dacron rope. I have a 73 vertical that has been up since 1990 using 5/16" black rope. These antennas have stood many strong storms, 2 of which had winds over 80 mph. It seems to me there must be a wide range of quality people are buying Unfortunately, I don't have a good answer, but I will no longer just say that Black Dacron polyester is the world-beater I thought it was. The source I have always bought from is The Radio Works. 73 es DX Pat H. Armstrong KF5YZ ---- Jim GM wrote: > In about 7 years that Dacron stuff starts to dry out and comes apart > slowly, Rots it in water like rain gutters. > > I have seen some guys use this Space Walk gray tethering cord for fling big > kites 120 square feet of sail and bigger. Not sure of the composition and > how UV resistant it is. Has a very high Tensile strength for how small it > is. Not sure what they call it. > > -- > Jim K9TF > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From k1fz at myfairpoint.net Wed Sep 17 16:26:39 2014 From: k1fz at myfairpoint.net (k1fz at myfairpoint.net) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 16:26:39 -0400 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions Message-ID: <20140917162639.q3z0n4m4ys8s8g8o@webmail.myfairpoint.net> I used the same rope, but purchased it from Davis RF. Used it for guying 100 foot Rohn-25 towers in a 80/160 meter 4 square in 1991 After 15 years, could not find any problems, but replaced it on general principles. Expect I will have it replaced again in about another 10 years. There is rope and there is great rope. 75 Bruce-K1FZ www.qsl.net/k1fz/beveragenotes.html ?I have a TH3mkIII Hygain beam that has been up on a mast at 45 ft since 1983 using 3/8" Dacron rope. I have a 73 vertical that has been up since 1990 using 5/16" black rope. These antennas have stood many strong storms, 2 of which had winds over 80 mph. The source I have always bought from is The Radio Works. 73 es DX Pat H. Armstrong KF5YZ ? From w8ji at w8ji.com Wed Sep 17 17:37:03 2014 From: w8ji at w8ji.com (Tom W8JI) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 17:37:03 -0400 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions References: Message-ID: <5D02EA79EF234CFDA5B6FE243EA6E96B@MAIN> > In about 7 years that Dacron stuff starts to dry out and comes apart > slowly, Rots it in water like rain gutters. > Perhaps you are confusing it with something else, or you bought some fake Chinese forgery? Dacron rope (a trade name for a polyester rope derivative with less stretch than nylon) is rated everywhere as being excellent for UV resistance with good or excellent chemical resistance, mildew resistant, and good abrasion resistance. It is commonly used as a marine rope. I have some that has been up for 15 years in Georgia sunshine, and it was used when I installed it! There are some inferior ropes out there. I bought some Wal-Mart Nylon rope that had no UV resistance at all. It lasted less than a year, while other Nylons last many years. The Wal-Mart made in China Nylon rope was more like polypropylene. From grants2 at pacbell.net Wed Sep 17 17:54:19 2014 From: grants2 at pacbell.net (Grant Saviers) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:54:19 -0700 Subject: Topband: [Bulk] Re: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <5D02EA79EF234CFDA5B6FE243EA6E96B@MAIN> References: <5D02EA79EF234CFDA5B6FE243EA6E96B@MAIN> Message-ID: <541A030B.9010805@pacbell.net> I've had real Synthetic Textiles lines up 10 years and more. Some in CA sun, without significant degradation. OTOH, some "dacron" bought on ebay is likely a dacron-polypro blend and lasted only a few years. Grant KZ1W On 9/17/2014 2:37 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: >> In about 7 years that Dacron stuff starts to dry out and comes apart >> slowly, Rots it in water like rain gutters. >> > > Perhaps you are confusing it with something else, or you bought some > fake Chinese forgery? > > Dacron rope (a trade name for a polyester rope derivative with less > stretch than nylon) is rated everywhere as being excellent for UV > resistance with good or excellent chemical resistance, mildew > resistant, and good abrasion resistance. > > It is commonly used as a marine rope. I have some that has been up for > 15 years in Georgia sunshine, and it was used when I installed it! > > There are some inferior ropes out there. I bought some Wal-Mart Nylon > rope that had no UV resistance at all. It lasted less than a year, > while other Nylons last many years. The Wal-Mart made in China Nylon > rope was more like polypropylene. > > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From charlie-cunningham at nc.rr.com Wed Sep 17 18:12:49 2014 From: charlie-cunningham at nc.rr.com (Charlie) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:12:49 -0400 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: <5D02EA79EF234CFDA5B6FE243EA6E96B@MAIN> References: <5D02EA79EF234CFDA5B6FE243EA6E96B@MAIN> Message-ID: Back in 1986, I bought two 500' spools of 5/16" black Dacron rope from Synthetic Textiles along with two 1000' spools of 3/16" rope and two of their hot knives. I have used and abused and re- used it on all manner of antennas over the years in three different locations since 1986 with no signs of wear or rot, regardless of sun and weather - and it DOESN'T stretch!! (It's worth it to use the hot knife to cut it so the ends don't fray.) The Synthetic Textiles Dacron rope is the REAL STUFF! We all would do well to check with our favorite supplier to determine from whom they source their "Dacron" rope! My experience has been more like Tom's and Pat's. I won't use anything else on my antennas! Back in the 1980s Synthetic Textiles was running ads in QST and ?I bought mine directly from the mfr. I can't wear it out! 73, Charlie, K4OTV -----Original Message----- From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tom W8JI Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 5:37 PM To: Jim GM; topband Subject: Re: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions > In about 7 years that Dacron stuff starts to dry out and comes apart > slowly, Rots it in water like rain gutters. > Perhaps you are confusing it with something else, or you bought some fake Chinese forgery? Dacron rope (a trade name for a polyester rope derivative with less stretch than nylon) is rated everywhere as being excellent for UV resistance with good or excellent chemical resistance, mildew resistant, and good abrasion resistance. It is commonly used as a marine rope. I have some that has been up for 15 years in Georgia sunshine, and it was used when I installed it! There are some inferior ropes out there. I bought some Wal-Mart Nylon rope that had no UV resistance at all. It lasted less than a year, while other Nylons last many years. The Wal-Mart made in China Nylon rope was more like polypropylene. _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From n5ia at zia-connection.com Wed Sep 17 18:54:53 2014 From: n5ia at zia-connection.com (Milt -- N5IA) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:54:53 -0700 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: References: <5D02EA79EF234CFDA5B6FE243EA6E96B@MAIN> Message-ID: Good evening all, I too have used the STI brand of outdoor rope for many, many years with absolutely no problems. I climb 120' towers that are guyed with the 5/16" variety. I am in the midst of a low band vertical array project. I have nearly used up the 10,000 feet of 5/16" line that is being used for the guying lines on all the vertical elements. I have in the past, and did so for this project, purchased directly from STI. They sell in single spool quantities or multiple 500 foot and 1,000 foot spool quantities. No, you cannot buy 50?, 100?, or similar small lengths. For those interested, the web page for STI is http://www.synthetictextilesinc.com/supportham.html I have no interest in the company other than their superb product for use in my personal antenna projects. Mis dos centavos. de Milt, N5IA -----Original Message----- From: Charlie Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 3:12 PM To: 'Tom W8JI' ; 'Jim GM' ; 'topband' Subject: Re: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions Back in 1986, I bought two 500' spools of 5/16" black Dacron rope from Synthetic Textiles along with two 1000' spools of 3/16" rope and two of their hot knives. I have used and abused and re- used it on all manner of antennas over the years in three different locations since 1986 with no signs of wear or rot, regardless of sun and weather - and it DOESN'T stretch!! (It's worth it to use the hot knife to cut it so the ends don't fray.) The Synthetic Textiles Dacron rope is the REAL STUFF! We all would do well to check with our favorite supplier to determine from whom they source their "Dacron" rope! My experience has been more like Tom's and Pat's. I won't use anything else on my antennas! Back in the 1980s Synthetic Textiles was running ads in QST and I bought mine directly from the mfr. I can't wear it out! 73, Charlie, K4OTV ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8229 - Release Date: 09/17/14 From km1h at jeremy.mv.com Wed Sep 17 19:34:29 2014 From: km1h at jeremy.mv.com (Carl) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:34:29 -0400 Subject: Topband: [Bulk] Re: Outdoor rope suggestions References: <5D02EA79EF234CFDA5B6FE243EA6E96B@MAIN> <541A030B.9010805@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <13A1F3A0566B4FFBBC7BCBC162BEF881@computer1> As I stated when I started this thread about 2 weeks ago Ive had STI line in use since 1983 for all sorts of outdoor projects including boom supports. I was looking for alternatives and went with Davis Dacron because they carried 1000' spools; being in the same state cut down on shipping and gave next day service. The two brands look identical. The longest runs these days is to support seperate 160, 80, and 75M inverted v's with a common coax feed at 180' with the ends out to 300' or so from the tower base. Several pieces are knotted together and takes all that Mother Nature can toss at if from ice storms to hurricanes, microbursts, N'oreasters, etc. Carl KM1H ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Saviers" To: "topband" Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 5:54 PM Subject: Re: Topband: [Bulk] Re: Outdoor rope suggestions > I've had real Synthetic Textiles lines up 10 years and more. Some in CA > sun, without significant degradation. OTOH, some "dacron" bought on ebay > is likely a dacron-polypro blend and lasted only a few years. > > Grant KZ1W > > > On 9/17/2014 2:37 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: >>> In about 7 years that Dacron stuff starts to dry out and comes apart >>> slowly, Rots it in water like rain gutters. >>> >> >> Perhaps you are confusing it with something else, or you bought some fake >> Chinese forgery? >> >> Dacron rope (a trade name for a polyester rope derivative with less >> stretch than nylon) is rated everywhere as being excellent for UV >> resistance with good or excellent chemical resistance, mildew resistant, >> and good abrasion resistance. >> >> It is commonly used as a marine rope. I have some that has been up for 15 >> years in Georgia sunshine, and it was used when I installed it! >> >> There are some inferior ropes out there. I bought some Wal-Mart Nylon >> rope that had no UV resistance at all. It lasted less than a year, while >> other Nylons last many years. The Wal-Mart made in China Nylon rope was >> more like polypropylene. >> >> >> _________________ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8230 - Release Date: 09/17/14 > From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Wed Sep 17 21:00:00 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:00:00 -0700 Subject: Topband: Outdoor rope suggestions In-Reply-To: References: <5D02EA79EF234CFDA5B6FE243EA6E96B@MAIN> Message-ID: <541A2E90.3040709@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Wed,9/17/2014 3:54 PM, Milt -- N5IA wrote: > I too have used the STI brand of outdoor rope for many, many years with absolutely no problems. I too standardized on the 5/16-in STI rope for my high wire antennas. They stand up quite well to everything but abrasion. Once the outer jacket is worn and breaks, you'd better replace it right away! Used with good pulleys it has been holding up quite well for me. 73, Jim K9YC From topband at contesting.com Thu Sep 18 15:41:30 2014 From: topband at contesting.com (Dennis W0JX via Topband) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:41:30 -0700 Subject: Topband: ROKU 3 QRM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1411069290.84988.YahooMailBasic@web162602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Topbanders: Within the last 3 to 4 months, I have been plagued with very strong QRN. I have a two way beverage that party runs over my garage and next to the house but it had always been an excellent performer in the past. However, in the reverse direction the QRN was intense, well over S-9 while about S-5 in the forward direction. Today, I decided to track the source down. I though it might be the new neighbors who moved in to the south since the beverage points southwest at their home. However, I decided to start inside my own home first. I set the QRN for S-9 on my K3 and began unplugging devices. It only took three attempts! When I pulled the power on the relatively new ROKU 3, the noise level on the K3 dropped from S9 to S5, about 24 db! I then plugged in the ROKU power supply thinking it might be a switcher but the noise did not rise so it is coming from the ROKU 3 itself. Our previous much older original ROKU did not do this. Now I'm going to have to deal with the XYL who is addicted to watching TV series on the darn thing! Any ideas on how I can shield, isolate, or modify this thing without causing a major operational issue? By the way, the noise output of the ROKU declines with an increase in frequency. On 80 meters, there was a slight increase in noise but not signficantly so and no effect on 40. Lesson learned: ALWAYS start your search inside your home first. 73, Dennis W0JX Milan, Ohio From k6xyz at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 18 16:04:12 2014 From: k6xyz at sbcglobal.net (David Harmon) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 15:04:12 -0500 Subject: Topband: ROKU 3 QRM In-Reply-To: <1411069290.84988.YahooMailBasic@web162602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1411069290.84988.YahooMailBasic@web162602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004301cfd37b$b82e8b90$288ba2b0$@sbcglobal.net> Get rid of the ROKU and get a modern TV with the web based apps built in....then connect the tv to the internet and/or satellite. I have a VISIO 65" 3d tv....non plasma of course...works great....no QRM to or from the tv. 73 David Harmon K6XYZ Sperry, OK -----Original Message----- From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dennis W0JX via Topband Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 2:42 PM To: topband at contesting.com Subject: Topband: ROKU 3 QRM Topbanders: Within the last 3 to 4 months, I have been plagued with very strong QRN. I have a two way beverage that party runs over my garage and next to the house but it had always been an excellent performer in the past. However, in the reverse direction the QRN was intense, well over S-9 while about S-5 in the forward direction. Today, I decided to track the source down. I though it might be the new neighbors who moved in to the south since the beverage points southwest at their home. However, I decided to start inside my own home first. I set the QRN for S-9 on my K3 and began unplugging devices. It only took three attempts! When I pulled the power on the relatively new ROKU 3, the noise level on the K3 dropped from S9 to S5, about 24 db! I then plugged in the ROKU power supply thinking it might be a switcher but the noise did not rise so it is coming from the ROKU 3 itself. Our previous much older original ROKU did not do this. Now I'm going to have to deal with the XYL who is addicted to watching TV series on the darn thing! Any ideas on how I can shield, isolate, or modify this thing without causing a major operational issue? By the way, the noise output of the ROKU declines with an increase in frequency. On 80 meters, there was a slight increase in noise but not signficantly so and no effect on 40. Lesson learned: ALWAYS start your search inside your home first. 73, Dennis W0JX Milan, Ohio _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Thu Sep 18 16:51:43 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 13:51:43 -0700 Subject: Topband: ROKU 3 QRM In-Reply-To: <1411069290.84988.YahooMailBasic@web162602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1411069290.84988.YahooMailBasic@web162602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <541B45DF.2050706@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Thu,9/18/2014 12:41 PM, Dennis W0JX via Topband wrote: > When I pulled the power on the relatively new ROKU 3, the noise level on the K3 dropped from S9 to S5, about 24 db! RF noise is radiated by wires, in this case, the power supply wiring and the wiring between the Roku and your TV (and perhaps other wires connected to the TV). I have a Roku 3, and while I hear it in a TH-F6A with its loopstick an inch above the Roku box, I don't hear it in my antennas. I'm doing two things to make it quiet. First, I'm running it from a 12V battery that is floated by a small linear supply. (A year or so ago, I went through my home and got rid of all the switch-mode crap). Second, both the DC lead and the video cable have a multi-turn ferrite choke wound on Fair-Rite #31. It also helps that my antennas are at least 100 ft from the Roku 3. 73, Jim K9YC From w9ac at arrl.net Thu Sep 18 17:18:50 2014 From: w9ac at arrl.net (Paul Christensen) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 17:18:50 -0400 Subject: Topband: ROKU 3 QRM In-Reply-To: <541B45DF.2050706@audiosystemsgroup.com> References: <1411069290.84988.YahooMailBasic@web162602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <541B45DF.2050706@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <0C2DAC7042DC41719DA9583AB3FE46B9@PaulChristensen> >" from a 12V battery that is floated by a small linear supply. (A year or so ago, I went through my home and got rid of all the switch-mode crap). At last count, I have more than a dozen linear supply replacements here. Some are built into consumer A/V equipment, others are used to power routers, Ethernet switches, cell phones, etc. I like the PowerOne, Condor, and International Power branded open frame "OEM" supplies. I grab extras any time they come available on the surplus market - and often for well under new prices from Mouser and Newark. Tackling EMI is always a maddening exercise here. If there's the slightest noise bump on a panadapter display, I can't rest until it's gone. Just this morning, I replaced what I thought was a quiet Toshiba laptop supply. It was being used to power a low-power SDR transceiver. All was fine until I ventured down to the middle of the AMBC band this morning. The grunge level increased over 30 dB when compared to 160m. Paul, W9AC From w8ji at w8ji.com Fri Sep 19 11:14:00 2014 From: w8ji at w8ji.com (Tom W8JI) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 11:14:00 -0400 Subject: Topband: ROKU 3 QRM References: <1411069290.84988.YahooMailBasic@web162602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CDB8D3E6C114C00B3C6610A5DAC9EF7@MAIN> Nearly all lower frequency noise ingress and egress is from differential mode of different cables entering and leaving a device. Any individual cable or wiring by itself might be common mode or differential mode, but the nasty stuff that isn't filtered almost always is from two or more cables or wire groups that are excited in "push-pull" at the device. This makes external wiring look like a big loop or big antenna system, so even small noises can go a long distance. The very first thing I do is get one of those multiple port lightning arrestors or surge protectors and make sure every cable and wire leaving a system passes through that common point and everything that can be grounded or bonded or bypassed is bypassed with that "protector" as a common point. 73 Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis W0JX via Topband" To: Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 3:41 PM Subject: Topband: ROKU 3 QRM > Topbanders: > > Within the last 3 to 4 months, I have been plagued with very strong QRN. I > have a two way beverage that party runs over my garage and next to the > house but it had always been an excellent performer in the past. However, > in the reverse direction the QRN was intense, well over S-9 while about > S-5 in the forward direction. > > Today, I decided to track the source down. I though it might be the new > neighbors who moved in to the south since the beverage points southwest at > their home. However, I decided to start inside my own home first. I set > the QRN for S-9 on my K3 and began unplugging devices. It only took three > attempts! When I pulled the power on the relatively new ROKU 3, the noise > level on the K3 dropped from S9 to S5, about 24 db! > > I then plugged in the ROKU power supply thinking it might be a switcher > but the noise did not rise so it is coming from the ROKU 3 itself. Our > previous much older original ROKU did not do this. > > Now I'm going to have to deal with the XYL who is addicted to watching TV > series on the darn thing! Any ideas on how I can shield, isolate, or > modify this thing without causing a major operational issue? > > By the way, the noise output of the ROKU declines with an increase in > frequency. On 80 meters, there was a slight increase in noise but not > signficantly so and no effect on 40. > > Lesson learned: ALWAYS start your search inside your home first. > > 73, Dennis W0JX > Milan, Ohio > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8233 - Release Date: 09/18/14 > From 4cx250b at miamioh.edu Sat Sep 20 10:06:34 2014 From: 4cx250b at miamioh.edu (Jim Garland) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 08:06:34 -0600 Subject: Topband: Beverage Question Message-ID: <008101cfd4dc$17141740$453c45c0$@miamioh.edu> I want to replace the 450 ohm ladder line for my two DXE 720 ft long bi-directional beverages with two lengths of WD-1/TT field telephone wire. The wires will be secured only at the ends, but will be suported along their length by ceramic insulators mounted on 4x4 posts spaced every 60 ft. The spacing between the parallel wires will be about six inches. Here are my quesetions: First, does anybody know what the likely impedance is of this configuration, or if not, how to measure it? Second, if I keep the DxE matching trnsformers used with the 450 ohm ladder line, will beverage performance be degraded noticeably with the new wures if, say, the impedance of the new line turns out to be 600 ohms or so? In other words, as a practical matter how important to performance (e.g., F/B ratio and low-noise) is it to make sure impedances are matched. Finally, a mechanical question. I want to have a pulley at one end of the parallel wires to equalize the tension in the wires. I've not been able to find a good pulley with a five or six inch diameter, except for nylon pulleys used for clotheslines. Do you think one of these could be used. There will be no motion of the pulley, since it is only used to equalize tension. The field telephone wire is rated at 200 lbs maximum tension, and I'm guessing the actual tension will be about half that. Thanks! Jim W8ZR From herbert.schoenbohm at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 10:34:26 2014 From: herbert.schoenbohm at gmail.com (Herbert Schoenbohm) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 10:34:26 -0400 Subject: Topband: Beverage Question In-Reply-To: <008101cfd4dc$17141740$453c45c0$@miamioh.edu> References: <008101cfd4dc$17141740$453c45c0$@miamioh.edu> Message-ID: <541D9072.7020804@gmail.com> Jim, The DXE boxes are designed for 450 ohm ladder line which has a much higher impedance than WD1-A wire. Using the DXE boxes may work but Gary's boxes (KD9SV) will work better as they are designed for the 100 ohm impedance of WD-1A. I also understand that DXE may now sell the boxes designed for WD-1. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 9/20/2014 10:06 AM, Jim Garland wrote: > I want to replace the 450 ohm ladder line for my two DXE 720 ft long > bi-directional beverages with two lengths of WD-1/TT field telephone wire. > The wires will be secured only at the ends, but will be suported along their > length by ceramic insulators mounted on 4x4 posts spaced every 60 ft. The > spacing between the parallel wires will be about six inches. Here are my > quesetions: First, does anybody know what the likely impedance is of this > configuration, or if not, how to measure it? Second, if I keep the DxE > matching trnsformers used with the 450 ohm ladder line, will beverage > performance be degraded noticeably with the new wures if, say, the impedance > of the new line turns out to be 600 ohms or so? In other words, as a > practical matter how important to performance (e.g., F/B ratio and > low-noise) is it to make sure impedances are matched. > > > > Finally, a mechanical question. I want to have a pulley at one end of the > parallel wires to equalize the tension in the wires. I've not been able to > find a good pulley with a five or six inch diameter, except for nylon > pulleys used for clotheslines. Do you think one of these could be used. > There will be no motion of the pulley, since it is only used to equalize > tension. The field telephone wire is rated at 200 lbs maximum tension, and > I'm guessing the actual tension will be about half that. > > > > Thanks! > > Jim W8ZR > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From k6xyz at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 20 11:00:47 2014 From: k6xyz at sbcglobal.net (David Harmon) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 10:00:47 -0500 Subject: Topband: Beverage Question In-Reply-To: <541D9072.7020804@gmail.com> References: <008101cfd4dc$17141740$453c45c0$@miamioh.edu> <541D9072.7020804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001201cfd4e3$aa33a610$fe9af230$@sbcglobal.net> Jim.....confirmed on Herb's comments. In preparation for installation of the DXE I had a long conversation with Rod about the impedance and he assured me that it would be difficult to match the impedance with wire which would degrade the performance. In the end....I did not put up the DXE because of this reason.....I did not want the 450~ ladder line flapping in the breeze and causing maintenance problems. I could be wrong about the maintenance....but that's the excuse I told to myself. 73 David Harmon K6XYZ Sperry, OK -----Original Message----- From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Herbert Schoenbohm Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 9:34 AM To: topband at contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Beverage Question Jim, The DXE boxes are designed for 450 ohm ladder line which has a much higher impedance than WD1-A wire. Using the DXE boxes may work but Gary's boxes (KD9SV) will work better as they are designed for the 100 ohm impedance of WD-1A. I also understand that DXE may now sell the boxes designed for WD-1. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 9/20/2014 10:06 AM, Jim Garland wrote: > I want to replace the 450 ohm ladder line for my two DXE 720 ft long > bi-directional beverages with two lengths of WD-1/TT field telephone wire. > The wires will be secured only at the ends, but will be suported along > their length by ceramic insulators mounted on 4x4 posts spaced every > 60 ft. The spacing between the parallel wires will be about six > inches. Here are my > quesetions: First, does anybody know what the likely impedance is of > this configuration, or if not, how to measure it? Second, if I keep > the DxE matching trnsformers used with the 450 ohm ladder line, will > beverage performance be degraded noticeably with the new wures if, > say, the impedance of the new line turns out to be 600 ohms or so? In > other words, as a practical matter how important to performance (e.g., > F/B ratio and > low-noise) is it to make sure impedances are matched. > > > > Finally, a mechanical question. I want to have a pulley at one end of > the parallel wires to equalize the tension in the wires. I've not been > able to find a good pulley with a five or six inch diameter, except > for nylon pulleys used for clotheslines. Do you think one of these could be used. > There will be no motion of the pulley, since it is only used to > equalize tension. The field telephone wire is rated at 200 lbs maximum > tension, and I'm guessing the actual tension will be about half that. > > > > Thanks! > > Jim W8ZR > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From tshoppa at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 11:03:38 2014 From: tshoppa at gmail.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 11:03:38 -0400 Subject: Topband: Beverage Question In-Reply-To: <008101cfd4dc$17141740$453c45c0$@miamioh.edu> References: <008101cfd4dc$17141740$453c45c0$@miamioh.edu> Message-ID: I have had excellent success with the clothesline pulleys. They are clearly not life-rated or mariner quality, but for ham antenna use I strongly recommend them. I have had several in trees/sky for 5+ years and have not observed any UV degradation. Tim N3QE On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Jim Garland <4cx250b at miamioh.edu> wrote: > I want to replace the 450 ohm ladder line for my two DXE 720 ft long > bi-directional beverages with two lengths of WD-1/TT field telephone wire. > The wires will be secured only at the ends, but will be suported along > their > length by ceramic insulators mounted on 4x4 posts spaced every 60 ft. The > spacing between the parallel wires will be about six inches. Here are my > quesetions: First, does anybody know what the likely impedance is of this > configuration, or if not, how to measure it? Second, if I keep the DxE > matching trnsformers used with the 450 ohm ladder line, will beverage > performance be degraded noticeably with the new wures if, say, the > impedance > of the new line turns out to be 600 ohms or so? In other words, as a > practical matter how important to performance (e.g., F/B ratio and > low-noise) is it to make sure impedances are matched. > > > > Finally, a mechanical question. I want to have a pulley at one end of the > parallel wires to equalize the tension in the wires. I've not been able to > find a good pulley with a five or six inch diameter, except for nylon > pulleys used for clotheslines. Do you think one of these could be used. > There will be no motion of the pulley, since it is only used to equalize > tension. The field telephone wire is rated at 200 lbs maximum tension, and > I'm guessing the actual tension will be about half that. > > > > Thanks! > > Jim W8ZR > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From 4cx250b at miamioh.edu Sat Sep 20 11:04:58 2014 From: 4cx250b at miamioh.edu (MU 4CX250B) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 09:04:58 -0600 Subject: Topband: Beverage Question In-Reply-To: <-6507894366401385184@unknownmsgid> References: <008101cfd4dc$17141740$453c45c0$@miamioh.edu> <541D9072.7020804@gmail.com> <-6507894366401385184@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <-4999490989102657268@unknownmsgid> > Thanks for the info and suggestions, Herb. One additional question, > however. Are you certain the 100 ohm impedance of the WD ? 1 pertains > to two parallel links of the wire, with 6 inch spacing? I know that > open wire feeders with 6 inch spacing typically have about 600 ohms of > impedance. > 73, > Jim W8ZiR > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Sep 20, 2014, at 8:34 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: >> >> Jim, The DXE boxes are designed for 450 ohm ladder line which has a much higher impedance than WD1-A wire. Using the DXE boxes may work but Gary's boxes (KD9SV) will work better as they are designed for the 100 ohm impedance of WD-1A. I also understand that DXE may now sell the boxes designed for WD-1. >> >> Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ >>> On 9/20/2014 10:06 AM, Jim Garland wrote: >>> I want to replace the 450 ohm ladder line for my two DXE 720 ft long >>> bi-directional beverages with two lengths of WD-1/TT field telephone wire. >>> The wires will be secured only at the ends, but will be suported along their >>> length by ceramic insulators mounted on 4x4 posts spaced every 60 ft. The >>> spacing between the parallel wires will be about six inches. Here are my >>> quesetions: First, does anybody know what the likely impedance is of this >>> configuration, or if not, how to measure it? Second, if I keep the DxE >>> matching trnsformers used with the 450 ohm ladder line, will beverage >>> performance be degraded noticeably with the new wures if, say, the impedance >>> of the new line turns out to be 600 ohms or so? In other words, as a >>> practical matter how important to performance (e.g., F/B ratio and >>> low-noise) is it to make sure impedances are matched. >>> >>> >>> Finally, a mechanical question. I want to have a pulley at one end of the >>> parallel wires to equalize the tension in the wires. I've not been able to >>> find a good pulley with a five or six inch diameter, except for nylon >>> pulleys used for clotheslines. Do you think one of these could be used. >>> There will be no motion of the pulley, since it is only used to equalize >>> tension. The field telephone wire is rated at 200 lbs maximum tension, and >>> I'm guessing the actual tension will be about half that. >>> >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Jim W8ZR >>> >>> _________________ >>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> >> _________________ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From 4cx250b at miamioh.edu Sat Sep 20 11:10:27 2014 From: 4cx250b at miamioh.edu (MU 4CX250B) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 09:10:27 -0600 Subject: Topband: Beverage Question In-Reply-To: <001201cfd4e3$aa33a610$fe9af230$@sbcglobal.net> References: <008101cfd4dc$17141740$453c45c0$@miamioh.edu> <541D9072.7020804@gmail.com> <001201cfd4e3$aa33a610$fe9af230$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <357298424826119487@unknownmsgid> Thanks, Dave. Right you are about the problems of 450 ohm ladder line flapping in the breeze! I've had to spend several days each autumn repairing multiple breaks in the lines, even with supports spaced 60 feet apart. 73, Jim w8zr Sent from my iPad > On Sep 20, 2014, at 9:00 AM, David Harmon wrote: > > Jim.....confirmed on Herb's comments. > In preparation for installation of the DXE I had a long conversation with > Rod about the impedance and he assured me that it would be difficult to > match the impedance with wire which would degrade the performance. > In the end....I did not put up the DXE because of this reason.....I did not > want the 450~ ladder line flapping in the breeze and causing maintenance > problems. > I could be wrong about the maintenance....but that's the excuse I told to > myself. > > > 73 > > David Harmon > K6XYZ > Sperry, OK > > -----Original Message----- > From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Herbert > Schoenbohm > Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 9:34 AM > To: topband at contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: Beverage Question > > Jim, The DXE boxes are designed for 450 ohm ladder line which has a much > higher impedance than WD1-A wire. Using the DXE boxes may work but Gary's > boxes (KD9SV) will work better as they are designed for the 100 ohm > impedance of WD-1A. I also understand that DXE may now sell the boxes > designed for WD-1. > > Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ >> On 9/20/2014 10:06 AM, Jim Garland wrote: >> I want to replace the 450 ohm ladder line for my two DXE 720 ft long >> bi-directional beverages with two lengths of WD-1/TT field telephone wire. >> The wires will be secured only at the ends, but will be suported along >> their length by ceramic insulators mounted on 4x4 posts spaced every >> 60 ft. The spacing between the parallel wires will be about six >> inches. Here are my >> quesetions: First, does anybody know what the likely impedance is of >> this configuration, or if not, how to measure it? Second, if I keep >> the DxE matching trnsformers used with the 450 ohm ladder line, will >> beverage performance be degraded noticeably with the new wures if, >> say, the impedance of the new line turns out to be 600 ohms or so? In >> other words, as a practical matter how important to performance (e.g., >> F/B ratio and >> low-noise) is it to make sure impedances are matched. >> >> >> >> Finally, a mechanical question. I want to have a pulley at one end of >> the parallel wires to equalize the tension in the wires. I've not been >> able to find a good pulley with a five or six inch diameter, except >> for nylon pulleys used for clotheslines. Do you think one of these could > be used. >> There will be no motion of the pulley, since it is only used to >> equalize tension. The field telephone wire is rated at 200 lbs maximum >> tension, and I'm guessing the actual tension will be about half that. >> >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> Jim W8ZR >> >> _________________ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From km1h at jeremy.mv.com Sat Sep 20 11:14:14 2014 From: km1h at jeremy.mv.com (Carl) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 11:14:14 -0400 Subject: Topband: Beverage Question References: <008101cfd4dc$17141740$453c45c0$@miamioh.edu> Message-ID: <7FBCCFF6265347B2937F0152A27C9207@computer1> The way I understand is that you will be using the WD-1A as individual lines with each having its wires connected in parallel. Id start by calculating the resultant wire gauge such as say two #24 in parallel = a #21; I dont know what the fudge factor would be due to wire and jacket insulations in determinining the 6" spaced line impedance. From what Ive read that is too much spacing for best performance due to imbalancing plus not being a bit twisted to cancel the imbalance as with ladderline and conventional WD-1A useage. If the reason for change is poor strength and reliability then why not go with parallel galvanized or aluminum fence wire and create some twisting arrangement every 100' so. In the more conventional installation I calculated about 93 Ohms for the WD-1A and use a 1:1 ratio for 75 Ohm coax; cant notice any deterioation between that and using 50 Ohm coax with its own transformer. Both work fine to 30M. Carl KM1H >I want to replace the 450 ohm ladder line for my two DXE 720 ft long > bi-directional beverages with two lengths of WD-1/TT field telephone wire. > The wires will be secured only at the ends, but will be suported along their > length by ceramic insulators mounted on 4x4 posts spaced every 60 ft. The > spacing between the parallel wires will be about six inches. Here are my > quesetions: First, does anybody know what the likely impedance is of this > configuration, or if not, how to measure it? Second, if I keep the DxE > matching trnsformers used with the 450 ohm ladder line, will beverage > performance be degraded noticeably with the new wures if, say, the impedance > of the new line turns out to be 600 ohms or so? In other words, as a > practical matter how important to performance (e.g., F/B ratio and > low-noise) is it to make sure impedances are matched. > > > > Finally, a mechanical question. I want to have a pulley at one end of the > parallel wires to equalize the tension in the wires. I've not been able to > find a good pulley with a five or six inch diameter, except for nylon > pulleys used for clotheslines. Do you think one of these could be used. > There will be no motion of the pulley, since it is only used to equalize > tension. The field telephone wire is rated at 200 lbs maximum tension, and > I'm guessing the actual tension will be about half that. > > > > Thanks! > > Jim W8ZR > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4025/8246 - Release Date: 09/20/14 > From herbert.schoenbohm at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 14:53:00 2014 From: herbert.schoenbohm at gmail.com (Herbert Schoenbohm) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 14:53:00 -0400 Subject: Topband: Beverage Question In-Reply-To: <-4999490989102657268@unknownmsgid> References: <008101cfd4dc$17141740$453c45c0$@miamioh.edu> <541D9072.7020804@gmail.com> <-6507894366401385184@unknownmsgid> <-4999490989102657268@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <541DCD0C.8010108@gmail.com> No my mistake as the spacing of the two parallel conductors would determine the impedance but the mismatch from 600 ohms to 450 would also not be good. It wold be easier to get working IMHO with a single run of WD-1a and the proper feed and termination transformers. Perhaps Gary KD9SV would give you the winding ratio for a home built ferrite box of your own. In this case it is the same principle but only a turns ratio that counts. Herb On 9/20/2014 11:04 AM, MU 4CX250B wrote: >> Thanks for the info and suggestions, Herb. One additional question, >> however. Are you certain the 100 ohm impedance of the WD ? 1 pertains >> to two parallel links of the wire, with 6 inch spacing? I know that >> open wire feeders with 6 inch spacing typically have about 600 ohms of >> impedance. >> 73, >> Jim W8ZiR >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Sep 20, 2014, at 8:34 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: >>> >>> Jim, The DXE boxes are designed for 450 ohm ladder line which has a much higher impedance than WD1-A wire. Using the DXE boxes may work but Gary's boxes (KD9SV) will work better as they are designed for the 100 ohm impedance of WD-1A. I also understand that DXE may now sell the boxes designed for WD-1. >>> >>> Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ >>>> On 9/20/2014 10:06 AM, Jim Garland wrote: >>>> I want to replace the 450 ohm ladder line for my two DXE 720 ft long >>>> bi-directional beverages with two lengths of WD-1/TT field telephone wire. >>>> The wires will be secured only at the ends, but will be suported along their >>>> length by ceramic insulators mounted on 4x4 posts spaced every 60 ft. The >>>> spacing between the parallel wires will be about six inches. Here are my >>>> quesetions: First, does anybody know what the likely impedance is of this >>>> configuration, or if not, how to measure it? Second, if I keep the DxE >>>> matching trnsformers used with the 450 ohm ladder line, will beverage >>>> performance be degraded noticeably with the new wures if, say, the impedance >>>> of the new line turns out to be 600 ohms or so? In other words, as a >>>> practical matter how important to performance (e.g., F/B ratio and >>>> low-noise) is it to make sure impedances are matched. >>>> >>>> >>>> Finally, a mechanical question. I want to have a pulley at one end of the >>>> parallel wires to equalize the tension in the wires. I've not been able to >>>> find a good pulley with a five or six inch diameter, except for nylon >>>> pulleys used for clotheslines. Do you think one of these could be used. >>>> There will be no motion of the pulley, since it is only used to equalize >>>> tension. The field telephone wire is rated at 200 lbs maximum tension, and >>>> I'm guessing the actual tension will be about half that. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Jim W8ZR >>>> >>>> _________________ >>>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >>> _________________ >>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From jeremy at maris.plus.com Sun Sep 21 05:09:26 2014 From: jeremy at maris.plus.com (jeremy maris) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 10:09:26 +0100 Subject: Topband: Beverage Question In-Reply-To: <008101cfd4dc$17141740$453c45c0$@miamioh.edu> References: <008101cfd4dc$17141740$453c45c0$@miamioh.edu> Message-ID: <77749047-0C53-41A4-8F19-905BEF5116D5@maris.plus.com> I've just finished putting up a ~300m NE/SW reversible beverage at G4AQG using two pairs of paralleled WD1/TT wire for the feeder, spaced 50mm apart. I used nine 2.7m 3x3 posts with electric fence insulators on top. The posts are held in the ground with a metal fence post spike. The wire is secured to insulators at the far end and tensioned with two fencing wire tensioners at the feed end, using egg insulators just before the tensioners. One end post is guyed with fencing wire to a 4ft 5/8" earth stake via a wire tensioner and the other guyed to a convenient tree. There are two 4ft earth rods at each end. I've put about 25lb tension in each line (measured with a travel scale) and there's hardly any sag in the line and apparently no need for spacers to keep the lines apart. Hopefully wind and any ice loading will be within the 200lb breaking strain of the paralleled wire! The impedance of the line is about 470 ohms and common mode is around 390 ohms. Allowing for earth losses in the termination, I reckoned that a 1:1 reflection transformer was about right. For 75 ohm coax, I used transformers with 6+6:5 , 7:3 and 3+3 :6 turns ratio wound on fair-rite binocular cores and direction switched by relay. I checked line impedance and matching impedance with an Antscope analyser, all seems OK. The beverage works well up to 30m. There's good f/b from a nearby AM station on 1485kHz ( at least 15dB) but not had time to measure 160m performance yet. Jeremy G3XDK/G4AQG On 20 Sep 2014, at 15:06, Jim Garland wrote: > I want to replace the 450 ohm ladder line for my two DXE 720 ft long > bi-directional beverages with two lengths of WD-1/TT field telephone wire. > The wires will be secured only at the ends, but will be supported along their > length by ceramic insulators mounted on 4x4 posts spaced every 60 ft. The > spacing between the parallel wires will be about six inches. Here are my > quesetions: First, does anybody know what the likely impedance is of this > configuration, or if not, how to measure it? Second, if I keep the DxE > matching trnsformers used with the 450 ohm ladder line, will beverage > performance be degraded noticeably with the new wures if, say, the impedance > of the new line turns out to be 600 ohms or so? In other words, as a > practical matter how important to performance (e.g., F/B ratio and > low-noise) is it to make sure impedances are matched. > > > > Finally, a mechanical question. I want to have a pulley at one end of the > parallel wires to equalize the tension in the wires. I've not been able to > find a good pulley with a five or six inch diameter, except for nylon > pulleys used for clotheslines. Do you think one of these could be used. > There will be no motion of the pulley, since it is only used to equalize > tension. The field telephone wire is rated at 200 lbs maximum tension, and > I'm guessing the actual tension will be about half that. > > > > Thanks! > > Jim W8ZR > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From goldtr8 at charter.net Sun Sep 21 07:21:16 2014 From: goldtr8 at charter.net (Goldtr8 (KD8NNU)) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 07:21:16 -0400 Subject: Topband: AlexLoop in South Lyon Michigan Message-ID: <87342F919B68464FA4DAECDC0E6AA5CE@donslaptopHP> Dear Group I know that there is an AlexLoop in the South Lyon MI area that is at someone?s contest station. I lost the contact information for the person who has the station. (deleted a folder in my email) If I remember correctly his name was Bruce. I want to attempt to contact him and ask to see the system. He offered to show it in the past but like I said I messed up on a delete button. I am pretty sure that he is part of this reflector which is part of the reason for this email Thanks for the bandwidth. Thanks Don ~73 Don KD8NNU 2014 Top Gun :-) -.- -.. ---.. -. -. ..- From jeremy at maris.plus.com Sun Sep 21 15:34:20 2014 From: jeremy at maris.plus.com (jeremy maris) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 20:34:20 +0100 Subject: Topband: Beverage Question In-Reply-To: <7FBCCFF6265347B2937F0152A27C9207@computer1> References: <008101cfd4dc$17141740$453c45c0$@miamioh.edu> <7FBCCFF6265347B2937F0152A27C9207@computer1> Message-ID: <368BDC66-591D-44ED-81C8-4C369ECCE9E4@maris.plus.com> The way I looked at it was that the equivalent diameter would be a bit less than twice the diameter of the wires plus the spacing. According to the Mil Spec for WD-1A/TT is 0.84mm diameter per conductor spaced 0.84mm (or perhaps 0.72mm if just twice sheath diameter. That gives around 2.5mm. The effective diameter will be less than this but it helps that the two conductors are twisted together. Can't do the maths for that but I reckon around 2mm diameter or 12 AWG. The standard formula (see eg http://www.w0btu.com) gives around 470 ohms with 50mm spacing. My quick tests with a 40ft sample of line (changing termination resistance and measuring SWR using an antscope via a 75/450 ohm transformer) show that to be about right for 450 ohm line. Jeremy G3XDK/G4AQG On 20 Sep 2014, at 16:14, Carl wrote: > The way I understand is that you will be using the WD-1A as individual lines with each having its wires connected in parallel. > > Id start by calculating the resultant wire gauge such as say two #24 in parallel = a #21; I dont know what the fudge factor would be due to wire and jacket insulations in determinining the 6" spaced line impedance. From what Ive read that is too much spacing for best performance due to imbalancing plus not being a bit twisted to cancel the imbalance as with ladderline and conventional WD-1A useage. > > If the reason for change is poor strength and reliability then why not go with parallel galvanized or aluminum fence wire and create some twisting arrangement every 100' so. > > In the more conventional installation I calculated about 93 Ohms for the WD-1A and use a 1:1 ratio for 75 Ohm coax; cant notice any deterioation between that and using 50 Ohm coax with its own transformer. Both work fine to 30M. > > Carl > KM1H > > > > >> I want to replace the 450 ohm ladder line for my two DXE 720 ft long >> bi-directional beverages with two lengths of WD-1/TT field telephone wire. >> The wires will be secured only at the ends, but will be suported along their >> length by ceramic insulators mounted on 4x4 posts spaced every 60 ft. The >> spacing between the parallel wires will be about six inches. Here are my >> quesetions: First, does anybody know what the likely impedance is of this >> configuration, or if not, how to measure it? Second, if I keep the DxE >> matching trnsformers used with the 450 ohm ladder line, will beverage >> performance be degraded noticeably with the new wures if, say, the impedance >> of the new line turns out to be 600 ohms or so? In other words, as a >> practical matter how important to performance (e.g., F/B ratio and >> low-noise) is it to make sure impedances are matched. >> >> >> >> Finally, a mechanical question. I want to have a pulley at one end of the >> parallel wires to equalize the tension in the wires. I've not been able to >> find a good pulley with a five or six inch diameter, except for nylon >> pulleys used for clotheslines. Do you think one of these could be used. >> There will be no motion of the pulley, since it is only used to equalize >> tension. The field telephone wire is rated at 200 lbs maximum tension, and >> I'm guessing the actual tension will be about half that. >> >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> Jim W8ZR >> >> _________________ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4025/8246 - Release Date: 09/20/14 >> > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From n5dg at airmail.net Mon Sep 22 09:50:45 2014 From: n5dg at airmail.net (Ed Stallman) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 08:50:45 -0500 Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? Message-ID: <54202935.1000508@airmail.net> Has anyone used this High Pass Filter ? http://www.dunestar.com/store/160-Meter-Highpass-Filter-pid-8.html I found I have a 25KW AM 1520 Khz BC transmitter 12 miles from me , is that close enough to interfere with me receiving weak signal DX on the top Band ? I do hear some wide band hash 1837 to 1840 ! Though I would asking before placing an order, not sure how what to look for with BCB interference ? Tnx Ed N5DG --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From n7rt at cox.net Mon Sep 22 10:07:42 2014 From: n7rt at cox.net (Hardy Landskov) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 07:07:42 -0700 Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? References: Message-ID: <62E938C1D79942859689289A7FA8D10D@hardy998140597> Ed, I have the same problem. A 25KW station at 1560 KHz just destroys the front end of my K3. Elecraft did not do a vey good job on their front end filtering but that's another issue. I finally had to build a 7 pole HPF from W3NQN's article many years ago. The catch is it has to be able to handle the transmit power too. There is no room in the K3 for a receive filter. Elecraft just blew me off when I told them about the problem. They said I was 1 in a 1000 that had that problem and they were not going to fix it. You will need at least 40 dB of attenuation and to my knowledge none of the commercially available filters will do the job. I heard that Array Solutions might have a transmit HPF now but I have not looked into it. 73 Hardy N7RT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Stallman" To: "TopBand List" Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 6:50 AM Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? > Has anyone used this High Pass Filter ? > http://www.dunestar.com/store/160-Meter-Highpass-Filter-pid-8.html > > I found I have a 25KW AM 1520 Khz BC transmitter 12 miles from me , is > that close enough to interfere with me receiving weak signal DX on the top > Band ? I do hear some wide band hash 1837 to 1840 ! > > Though I would asking before placing an order, not sure how what to look > for with BCB interference ? > > Tnx Ed N5DG > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From topband at contesting.com Mon Sep 22 12:04:38 2014 From: topband at contesting.com (W2PM via Topband) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:04:38 -0400 Subject: Topband: Orbital Angular Momentum propagation Message-ID: <2F730DA0-C146-4073-82AA-BF03972365DB@aol.com> Is anyone on list involved in any academic or commercial research on this topic ? If so can you contact me directly - w2pm at aol.com. Sent from my iPhone From lloydberg at charter.net Mon Sep 22 12:14:42 2014 From: lloydberg at charter.net (Lloyd Berg N9LB) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:14:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? Message-ID: <64cf1c6b.28c13.1489e24c335.Webtop.47@charter.net> Hi Ed! I've got a 1650 KHz 10 KW station about six miles away. I am using a Clifton Laboratories Z10022A high pass filter for 160 meter reception. Works great and very reasonable price. http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/current_products.htm Z10022A Medium Wave High Pass Filter The Z10022A is a receive-only 9th order 1 dB Chebyshev high pass filter with a nominal cutoff frequency of 1800 KHz. The Z10022A is intended to be used to prevent a shortwave receiver from overloading due to strong signals from AM broadcast band (Medium Wave) in the 530-1700 KHz range. ( see the web site for lots of documentation). http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/z10022a_high_pass_filter.htm 73 Lloyd - N9LB On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 8:50 AM, Ed Stallman wrote: > Has anyone used this High Pass Filter ? > http://www.dunestar.com/store/160-Meter-Highpass-Filter-pid-8.html > > I found I have a 25KW AM 1520 Khz BC transmitter 12 miles from me , > is that close enough to interfere with me receiving weak signal DX on > the top Band ? I do hear some wide band hash 1837 to 1840 ! > > Though I would asking before placing an order, not sure how what to > look for with BCB interference ? > > Tnx Ed N5DG > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From lloydberg at charter.net Mon Sep 22 12:17:46 2014 From: lloydberg at charter.net (Lloyd Berg N9LB) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:17:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? Message-ID: <5f0c0df7.28c84.1489e2793cc.Webtop.47@charter.net> Hi Ed! I've got a 1650 KHz 10 KW station about six miles away. I am using a Clifton Laboratories Z10022A high pass filter for 160 meter reception. Works great and very reasonable price. http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/current_products.htm Z10022A Medium Wave High Pass Filter The Z10022A is a receive-only 9th order 1 dB Chebyshev high pass filter with a nominal cutoff frequency of 1800 KHz. The Z10022A is intended to be used to prevent a shortwave receiver from overloading due to strong signals from AM broadcast band (Medium Wave) in the 530-1700 KHz range. ( see the web site for lots of documentation). http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/z10022a_high_pass_filter.htm 73 Lloyd - N9LB On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 8:50 AM, Ed Stallman wrote: > Has anyone used this High Pass Filter ? > http://www.dunestar.com/store/160-Meter-Highpass-Filter-pid-8.html > > I found I have a 25KW AM 1520 Khz BC transmitter 12 miles from me , > is that close enough to interfere with me receiving weak signal DX on > the top Band ? I do hear some wide band hash 1837 to 1840 ! > > Though I would asking before placing an order, not sure how what to > look for with BCB interference ? > > Tnx Ed N5DG > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From wa5rtg at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 12:21:04 2014 From: wa5rtg at gmail.com (Stan Stockton) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 10:21:04 -0600 Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? In-Reply-To: <62E938C1D79942859689289A7FA8D10D@hardy998140597> References: <62E938C1D79942859689289A7FA8D10D@hardy998140597> Message-ID: Why can't you come out of Ant out jack through filter and back in through ant in jack and select RX antenna? Stan, K5GO Sent from Stan's IPhone > On Sep 22, 2014, at 8:07 AM, "Hardy Landskov" wrote: > > Ed, > I have the same problem. A 25KW station at 1560 KHz just destroys the front end of my K3. Elecraft did not do a vey good job on their front end filtering but that's another issue. I finally had to build a 7 pole HPF from W3NQN's article many years ago. The catch is it has to be able to handle the transmit power too. There is no room in the K3 for a receive filter. Elecraft just blew me off when I told them about the problem. They said I was 1 in a 1000 that had that problem and they were not going to fix it. > You will need at least 40 dB of attenuation and to my knowledge none of the commercially available filters will do the job. > I heard that Array Solutions might have a transmit HPF now but I have not looked into it. > 73 Hardy N7RT > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Stallman" > To: "TopBand List" > Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 6:50 AM > Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? > > >> Has anyone used this High Pass Filter ? http://www.dunestar.com/store/160-Meter-Highpass-Filter-pid-8.html >> >> I found I have a 25KW AM 1520 Khz BC transmitter 12 miles from me , is that close enough to interfere with me receiving weak signal DX on the top Band ? I do hear some wide band hash 1837 to 1840 ! >> >> Though I would asking before placing an order, not sure how what to look for with BCB interference ? >> >> Tnx Ed N5DG >> >> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> _________________ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Mon Sep 22 12:42:08 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 09:42:08 -0700 Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? In-Reply-To: <62E938C1D79942859689289A7FA8D10D@hardy998140597> References: <62E938C1D79942859689289A7FA8D10D@hardy998140597> Message-ID: <54205160.4050705@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Mon,9/22/2014 7:07 AM, Hardy Landskov wrote: > The catch is it has to be able to handle the transmit power too. Not if you put the filter in the RX loop. That feature is part of the KXV3 and KXV3A modules. Also, many AM broadcast stations are licensed for a lot less power at night than during the day. Check the FCC website for the station you're concerned about. Of course, that won't help at greyline. :) http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/am-query-broadcast-station-search 73, Jim K9YC From gmarks at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 22 12:48:21 2014 From: gmarks at neo.rr.com (Gary Marks) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:48:21 -0400 Subject: Topband: Matching network info for 80 & 160M needed Message-ID: <1702AABE2DC14712BC9BA35EDC5C7338@marksz2ougipy2> I have an Inverted-L antenna for 80M & 160M and would like to make or buy a remote matching system that would work on both ends of both bands that would accept full power. I built a system many years ago from a Doug DeMaw, W1FB, article in the May 1985 issue of QST but it has never worked as well as I wanted for whatever reason. If anyone is interested, this article can be found at the ARRL QST archives http://www.arrl.org/arrl-periodicals-archive-search by entering W1FB , 1985, May, QST. Anyone have an idea of a matching system that would do all of the above ? From n7rt at cox.net Mon Sep 22 13:02:31 2014 From: n7rt at cox.net (Hardy Landskov) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 10:02:31 -0700 Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? References: <62E938C1D79942859689289A7FA8D10D@hardy998140597> Message-ID: <0AE4BC9F7D604A068CB20C00882A9310@hardy998140597> Bill, The HPF article was in QST, Feb 1978, p. 22. Hardy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Wichers" To: "Hardy Landskov" Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 8:57 AM Subject: RE: Topband: BCB interference ? Do you have a link to that W3NQN article? I'm only familiar with his work with bandpass filters, and I'm looking for a good highpass filter design to use ahead of a receiving preamp myself. BTW, if you have the K3 with the KXV3A you can loop the receive signal out through an external device and back into the radio through a pair of BNC jacks (this is how you use their 6m preamp, for example). You could use that option to allow the use of external receive filters too. Just a thought... -Bill KB8WYP From jim at n7us.net Mon Sep 22 13:14:11 2014 From: jim at n7us.net (Jim N7US) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:14:11 -0500 Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? In-Reply-To: <62E938C1D79942859689289A7FA8D10D@hardy998140597> References: <62E938C1D79942859689289A7FA8D10D@hardy998140597> Message-ID: <007a01cfd688$a0f7bb80$e2e73280$@net> See also http://www.arraysolutions.com/Products/bcb_filters_top.htm and http://arraysolutions.com/Products/bcb_filters_top1.htm . 73, Jim N7US -----Original Message----- Ed, I have the same problem. A 25KW station at 1560 KHz just destroys the front end of my K3. Elecraft did not do a vey good job on their front end filtering but that's another issue. I finally had to build a 7 pole HPF from W3NQN's article many years ago. The catch is it has to be able to handle the transmit power too. There is no room in the K3 for a receive filter. Elecraft just blew me off when I told them about the problem. They said I was 1 in a 1000 that had that problem and they were not going to fix it. You will need at least 40 dB of attenuation and to my knowledge none of the commercially available filters will do the job. I heard that Array Solutions might have a transmit HPF now but I have not looked into it. 73 Hardy N7RT ----- Original Message ----- > Has anyone used this High Pass Filter ? > http://www.dunestar.com/store/160-Meter-Highpass-Filter-pid-8.html > > I found I have a 25KW AM 1520 Khz BC transmitter 12 miles from me , is > that close enough to interfere with me receiving weak signal DX on the top > Band ? I do hear some wide band hash 1837 to 1840 ! > > Though I would asking before placing an order, not sure how what to look > for with BCB interference ? > > Tnx Ed N5DG From grants2 at pacbell.net Mon Sep 22 13:29:29 2014 From: grants2 at pacbell.net (Grant Saviers) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 10:29:29 -0700 Subject: Topband: [Bulk] BCB interference ? In-Reply-To: <54202935.1000508@airmail.net> References: <54202935.1000508@airmail.net> Message-ID: <54205C79.6000705@pacbell.net> In San Jose, CA I had a 50kw station on 1Mhz unobstructed line of sight 3 miles from my 80m vertical, and had good success with this 100w capable filter, used all HF bands for several years and no problems. http://www.herostechnology.co.uk/pages/RF_Filters/filters.html#BCB I was measuring some other BP filters with my VNWA and measured the following for the Heros HS-BCB0200007 I have Flat -0.25db 1.8MHz to 37MHz; -25db @ 1.525MHz; -55db or better below 1.35MHz. -25db @ 1.525MHz will help reduce overload if that is the problem, but you may need a custom notch filter. Grant KZ1W On 9/22/2014 6:50 AM, Ed Stallman wrote: > Has anyone used this High Pass Filter ? > http://www.dunestar.com/store/160-Meter-Highpass-Filter-pid-8.html > > I found I have a 25KW AM 1520 Khz BC transmitter 12 miles from me , > is that close enough to interfere with me receiving weak signal DX on > the top Band ? I do hear some wide band hash 1837 to 1840 ! > > Though I would asking before placing an order, not sure how what to > look for with BCB interference ? > > Tnx Ed N5DG > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From herbert.schoenbohm at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 13:30:29 2014 From: herbert.schoenbohm at gmail.com (Herbert Schoenbohm) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 13:30:29 -0400 Subject: Topband: Matching network info for 80 & 160M needed In-Reply-To: <1702AABE2DC14712BC9BA35EDC5C7338@marksz2ougipy2> References: <1702AABE2DC14712BC9BA35EDC5C7338@marksz2ougipy2> Message-ID: <54205CB5.9000308@gmail.com> If the inverted "L" is made to be 3/8ths wave long on 160 meters it can be feed as a 3/4 wave on 80 meters. In this case only a series capacitor to tune out the TB inductive reactance is needed on 160 meters and a shorting switch for using the same wire on 80 meters. A large open frame relay should sufficient unless you are running super QRO. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 9/22/2014 12:48 PM, Gary Marks wrote: > I have an Inverted-L antenna for 80M & 160M and would like to make or buy a remote matching system that would work on both ends of both bands that would accept full power. > I built a system many years ago from a Doug DeMaw, W1FB, article in the May 1985 issue of QST but it has never worked as well as I wanted for whatever reason. > If anyone is interested, this article can be found at the ARRL QST archives http://www.arrl.org/arrl-periodicals-archive-search by entering W1FB , 1985, May, QST. > > Anyone have an idea of a matching system that would do all of the above ? > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From wb6rse1 at mac.com Mon Sep 22 13:35:04 2014 From: wb6rse1 at mac.com (wb6rse1 at mac.com) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 10:35:04 -0700 Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? In-Reply-To: <007a01cfd688$a0f7bb80$e2e73280$@net> References: <62E938C1D79942859689289A7FA8D10D@hardy998140597> <007a01cfd688$a0f7bb80$e2e73280$@net> Message-ID: <7221D8E1-01EC-4E45-9F0E-D2C05CEB4902@mac.com> I had a local BC station start to produce spurs that overloaded an external preamp for my full size RX flag. The Array Solutions W3NQN RX filter did the job. I tried an Array Solutions AS-402 BCB High Pass Filter but it doesn?t have the brick wall response of the W3NQN design. For all I know, my local BC station is still malfunctioning. The Clifton Lab design looks as if it should work comparably to the W3NQN filter. The Array Solutions AS-RXFEP front end protector should be consider if your RX and RX antennas are close and your run QRO. Steve WB6RSE From richard at karlquist.com Mon Sep 22 14:09:25 2014 From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:09:25 -0700 Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? In-Reply-To: <54205160.4050705@audiosystemsgroup.com> References: <62E938C1D79942859689289A7FA8D10D@hardy998140597> <54205160.4050705@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <542065D5.2070507@karlquist.com> On 9/22/2014 9:42 AM, Jim Brown wrote: > On Mon,9/22/2014 7:07 AM, Hardy Landskov wrote: >> The catch is it has to be able to handle the transmit power too. > > Not if you put the filter in the RX loop. That feature is part of the > KXV3 and KXV3A modules > > 73, Jim K9YC Does this allow me to listen on my transmit vertical through a low power high pass filter? AFAIK, what you are talking about only applies a filter to the separate RX antenna. I tried to read about this on the Elecraft site, but it is not clear. Rick N6RK From billw at waveform.net Mon Sep 22 14:19:58 2014 From: billw at waveform.net (Bill Wichers) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 18:19:58 +0000 Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? In-Reply-To: <542065D5.2070507@karlquist.com> References: <62E938C1D79942859689289A7FA8D10D@hardy998140597> <54205160.4050705@audiosystemsgroup.com> <542065D5.2070507@karlquist.com> Message-ID: <4897906C085783429A2F4B39EBFF44F06C8FC916@Server-01.WaveformTechnology.local> It operates like a send/return loop. You can toggle the signal routing from the front panel to either use the external device or not. I know for a fact it will work for the transmit antenna since that's what I use it for, but as far as I know it can be used for *any* external antenna, but not the separate receive antenna (using the separate connector) you can have for the KRX3. Elecraft uses this same setup to put their 6m preamp inline (which is where I first found out about it -- the preamp "mounts" to the back of the radio with dual BNC connections). The manual discusses using the loop to allow external filters/amps to be patched in. -Bill > > Not if you put the filter in the RX loop. That feature is part of the > > KXV3 and KXV3A modules > > > > 73, Jim K9YC > > Does this allow me to listen on my transmit vertical through a low power high > pass filter? AFAIK, what you are talking about only applies a filter to the > separate RX antenna. I tried to read about this on the Elecraft site, but it is > not clear. > > Rick N6RK > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Mon Sep 22 14:21:29 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:21:29 -0700 Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? In-Reply-To: <54202935.1000508@airmail.net> References: <54202935.1000508@airmail.net> Message-ID: <542068A9.9010206@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Mon,9/22/2014 6:50 AM, Ed Stallman wrote: > Has anyone used this High Pass Filter ? > http://www.dunestar.com/store/160-Meter-Highpass-Filter-pid-8.html The spec for this filter is ambiguous. Is the -40dB at all frequencies below 1.6 MHz, or at 1 MHz? BIG difference. OTOH, the Dunestar filters are decent for the price. > > I found I have a 25KW AM 1520 Khz BC transmitter 12 miles from me , > is that close enough to interfere with me receiving weak signal DX on > the top Band ? I do hear some wide band hash 1837 to 1840 ! That may be because they are transmitting digital radio. No filter will remove that -- it's part of their sidebands. > > Thought I would asking before placing an order, not sure how what to > look for with BCB interference ? A year or so ago, I reviewed a bunch of bandpass filter sets designed for contesters. I also measured an ICE BCB filter (160M highpass). k9yc.com/BandpassFilterSurvey.pdf The pdf includes a link to pdfs of the VNWA data. I measured the filters that I either owned or could borrow from local NCCC members. Sorry -- the ICE BCB was the only one I had access to. I didn't put a marker at 1.5 MHz (I would have, but I was out of markers), but eyeballing it without a marker, I'd say that all of these filters (except the ICE419Bs) would be down by at least 15 dB at 1.5 MHz. The ICE BCB was about -16 dB at 1.5 MHz. 15 dB would reduce that 25kW station to 800W. Maybe enough, maybe not. For more rejection, you'll need one of the W3NQN designs that Array Solutions sells. And remember that NO filter will touch any sideband trash that the station puts on 160M. 73, Jim K9YC From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Mon Sep 22 14:35:49 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:35:49 -0700 Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? In-Reply-To: <542065D5.2070507@karlquist.com> References: <62E938C1D79942859689289A7FA8D10D@hardy998140597> <54205160.4050705@audiosystemsgroup.com> <542065D5.2070507@karlquist.com> Message-ID: <54206C05.9080607@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Mon,9/22/2014 11:09 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: > On 9/22/2014 9:42 AM, Jim Brown wrote: >> On Mon,9/22/2014 7:07 AM, Hardy Landskov wrote: >>> The catch is it has to be able to handle the transmit power too. >> >> Not if you put the filter in the RX loop. That feature is part of the >> KXV3 and KXV3A modules >> >> 73, Jim K9YC > > Does this allow me to listen on my transmit vertical through > a low power high pass filter? Yes. The KXV3 and KXV3A give you the output of the T/R switching and the input of the RX, so that you can loop that through the filter. > AFAIK, what you are talking about > only applies a filter to the separate RX antenna. I tried to > read about this on the Elecraft site, but it is not clear. The multiple ways in which a K3 can be configured contribute to the confusion. :) If you have the second RX and the antenna tuner, you will have an AUX input (a BNC) that can be the alternate antenna for the second RX. That's a choice you make when installing those modules, and that's how my K3s are set up. My Beverages feed that AUX input, and are also wired in parallel to the RX input, so I can listen on the Beverages on the Main RX if I want to. I also have a 6M preamp that I switch into that RX loop using a Top Ten relay box. Here in the Santa Cruz Mountains, I'm not close enough to any AM stations to need a BPF. It was a different story in Chicago, with five 50kW clears within 20 miles and a kW or two within a mile. :) 73, Jim K9YC From fortra at siol.net Mon Sep 22 14:56:03 2014 From: fortra at siol.net (Fortra) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 20:56:03 +0200 Subject: Topband: Matching network info for 80 & 160M needed References: <1702AABE2DC14712BC9BA35EDC5C7338@marksz2ougipy2> Message-ID: Hi Gary, there was an article in recent issue of ARRL QST, A 20 and 40 meter Vertical on "Autopilot", from QST september 2005 by Dan Richardson, K6MHE...same article ended up in ARRL" " More vertical Antenna Classics :) Use heavy duty compononets, treat 160 m vertical as 1/4 lambda and 80 meters as 1/2 lambda...let us know :) You might have followeres.. Kr Nermin S58DX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Marks" To: "Topband" Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 6:48 PM Subject: Topband: Matching network info for 80 & 160M needed >I have an Inverted-L antenna for 80M & 160M and would like to make or buy a >remote matching system that would work on both ends of both bands that >would accept full power. > I built a system many years ago from a Doug DeMaw, W1FB, article in the > May 1985 issue of QST but it has never worked as well as I wanted for > whatever reason. > If anyone is interested, this article can be found at the ARRL QST > archives http://www.arrl.org/arrl-periodicals-archive-search by entering > W1FB , 1985, May, QST. > > Anyone have an idea of a matching system that would do all of the above ? > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From charlesh3 at msn.com Mon Sep 22 14:59:00 2014 From: charlesh3 at msn.com (Chuck Hutton) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 18:59:00 +0000 Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? In-Reply-To: <542068A9.9010206@audiosystemsgroup.com> References: <54202935.1000508@airmail.net>, <542068A9.9010206@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:21:29 -0700 > From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com > To: topband at contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: BCB interference ? > > On Mon,9/22/2014 6:50 AM, Ed Stallman wrote: > > I found I have a 25KW AM 1520 Khz BC transmitter 12 miles from me , > > is that close enough to interfere with me receiving weak signal DX on > > the top Band ? I do hear some wide band hash 1837 to 1840 ! And Jim Brown wrote: > That may be because they are transmitting digital radio. No filter will > remove that -- it's part of their sidebands. > > 73, Jim K9YC Jim: Digital sidebands for AM stations only extend +/- 15 kHz from the carrier. If noise is being heard 317 kHz above the carrier, it's not due to IBOC usage. Chuck From richard at karlquist.com Mon Sep 22 15:17:42 2014 From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:17:42 -0700 Subject: Topband: Matching network info for 80 & 160M needed In-Reply-To: <1702AABE2DC14712BC9BA35EDC5C7338@marksz2ougipy2> References: <1702AABE2DC14712BC9BA35EDC5C7338@marksz2ougipy2> Message-ID: <542075D6.2020807@karlquist.com> On 9/22/2014 9:48 AM, Gary Marks wrote: > I have an Inverted-L antenna for 80M & 160M and would like to make or buy a remote matching system that would work on both ends of both bands that would accept full power. I have a 90 foot top loaded vertical on 160 meter that is resonant on 1830 with just the top loading wires. If I measure the impedance of it on 80 meters, it is somewhere around 1000 ohms and resonant somewhere in the 80 meter band. It would be possible to build a dedicated match for each band and then switch between them. The component values are so vastly different that you need separate networks. What I actually do is have a relay at the 60 foot point in the vertical that disconnects the top 30 feet of the antenna for 80 meters. MUCH simpler than matching to ~1000 ohms. Rick N6RK From charlesh3 at msn.com Mon Sep 22 15:22:05 2014 From: charlesh3 at msn.com (Chuck Hutton) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 19:22:05 +0000 Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? In-Reply-To: <542068A9.9010206@audiosystemsgroup.com> References: <54202935.1000508@airmail.net>, <542068A9.9010206@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: Their description (to me at least) indicates an elliptic filter with a stopband peak of -40 dB at 1 MHZ and ranging to infinity (in theory) elsewhere in the stopband. In other words, 40 dB is the maximum for the discrimination factor. "Indicates" is a word I feel is necessary as their filter really is poorly described. They should have said what filter type and order are used and used standard nomenclature for filter parameters. And there's no mention of passband ripple. Chuck > Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:21:29 -0700 > From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com > To: topband at contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: BCB interference ? > > On Mon,9/22/2014 6:50 AM, Ed Stallman wrote: > > Has anyone used this High Pass Filter ? > > http://www.dunestar.com/store/160-Meter-Highpass-Filter-pid-8.html > > The spec for this filter is ambiguous. Is the -40dB at all frequencies > below 1.6 MHz, or at 1 MHz? BIG difference. OTOH, the Dunestar filters > are decent for the price. > 73, Jim K9YC From topband at contesting.com Mon Sep 22 15:29:00 2014 From: topband at contesting.com (W9UCW--- via Topband) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 15:29:00 -0400 Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? Message-ID: I have a 50 KW station on 1530, eight miles north of me. They have a six element in-line array aimed south at Mexico... and me. They tore up every rig I've had in the shack until I went to a K3. We have two K3s and have no problem on either of them with BCB other than weak birdies on 1820 and a few other multiples of ten on 160 and 80. Rigs like the IC7000, and the FT857, a TS850s and others have hash from that station across the whole HF range. Even the TenTec Omni 6+ was plagued with junk everywhere. Many years ago I borrowed a commercial sharp-knee hi-pass filter from AA1K. I forget who made it but you could ask Jon. It may have been a NQN unit. The filter was made to take the power output of a 150 watt rig. That did the job for most all rigs. I duplicated the filter and made a couple of them for use in this environment. I tweaked the toroid coil spacing and parts positions until there was a cliff starting about 1790 and the transmit loss was minute across 1.8 to 30 mHz. I built in my own sharp-knee filter in the Omni 6+ and added a "suck-out" filter tuned to 1530. That fixed the TenTec. In more recent times, The problem became critical when I installed the HI-Z four element receiving array. Those "Plus" amps at the base of each element were sitting ducks for all that broadcast RF. The birdies were 20 over 9 and the sidebands covered 12 kHz! Lee, K7TJR at HI-Z made up four matched input traps for the amps and that brought down the problem to barely a nuisance. I won't miss any contacts because of it. We don't use any internal or external filters on the K3s and I'm surprised that you are having trouble with yours. There has to be an answer to explain that. The BCB RF is so strong here that our land line was always providing the programming from KGBT. BTW, it's a 24 hour talk radio station in spanish. We went to all cell fones a few years ago. CU on Topband, 73, Barry, W9UCW From charlie-cunningham at nc.rr.com Mon Sep 22 15:47:59 2014 From: charlie-cunningham at nc.rr.com (Charlie) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 15:47:59 -0400 Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? In-Reply-To: References: <54202935.1000508@airmail.net>, <542068A9.9010206@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: Pardon me, but an elliptic filter does not tend toward infinite attenuation in the stopband! The tradeoff, with elliptical filter designs, in which we incorporate transmission zeroes to increase the cutoff rate into the stopband, is finite attenuation in the stopband. Indeed, ultimate attenuation and ripple are essential specifications that must be incorporated into the design of an elliptical filter. If really high values of attenuation are required the elliptic filter can be followed by Butterworth or other all-pole filter section(s) 73, Charlie, K4OTV -----Original Message----- From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Hutton Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 3:22 PM To: topband at contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: BCB interference ? Their description (to me at least) indicates an elliptic filter with a stopband peak of -40 dB at 1 MHZ and ranging to infinity (in theory) elsewhere in the stopband. In other words, 40 dB is the maximum for the discrimination factor. "Indicates" is a word I feel is necessary as their filter really is poorly described. They should have said what filter type and order are used and used standard nomenclature for filter parameters. And there's no mention of passband ripple. Chuck > Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:21:29 -0700 > From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com > To: topband at contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: BCB interference ? > > On Mon,9/22/2014 6:50 AM, Ed Stallman wrote: > > Has anyone used this High Pass Filter ? > > http://www.dunestar.com/store/160-Meter-Highpass-Filter-pid-8.html > > The spec for this filter is ambiguous. Is the -40dB at all frequencies > below 1.6 MHz, or at 1 MHz? BIG difference. OTOH, the Dunestar > filters are decent for the price. > 73, Jim K9YC _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From chris at g3svl.com Mon Sep 22 20:51:26 2014 From: chris at g3svl.com (chris at g3svl.com) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 01:51:26 +0100 Subject: Topband: =?utf-8?q?BCB_interference_=3F?= In-Reply-To: <7221D8E1-01EC-4E45-9F0E-D2C05CEB4902@mac.com> References: <62E938C1D79942859689289A7FA8D10D@hardy998140597> <007a01cfd688$a0f7bb80$e2e73280$@net> <7221D8E1-01EC-4E45-9F0E-D2C05CEB4902@mac.com> Message-ID: I have a three-frequency 2.7KW BC station that is 350 yards from the base of my 160m vertical. The NQN BCB filter knocks out all problems - well except for the 2nd harmonic of the 945KHz feed which sometimes turns up for a day or so. I can't think of a single reason not to try one if you have BCB, they are cheaper than almost any rig accessory you're likely to buy! 73 Chris, G3SVL From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Mon Sep 22 21:28:52 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 18:28:52 -0700 Subject: Topband: BCB interference ? In-Reply-To: References: <62E938C1D79942859689289A7FA8D10D@hardy998140597> <007a01cfd688$a0f7bb80$e2e73280$@net> <7221D8E1-01EC-4E45-9F0E-D2C05CEB4902@mac.com> Message-ID: <5420CCD4.5070405@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Mon,9/22/2014 5:51 PM, chris at g3svl.com wrote: > I can't think of a single reason not to try one if you have BCB, they > are cheaper than almost any rig accessory you're likely to buy! Their effectiveness will depend entirely on the frequencies within the BCB you are trying to suppress. 945 kHz is FAR easier than 1530 kHz, which is what these guys are dealing with. Yes, the ICE BCB works fine down around 1 MHz, but it doesn't have nearly enough poles to suppress a very big signal at the top of the band. There's a link to my measured data for my BCB in that filter review for which I posted the link. 73, Jim K9YC From topband at contesting.com Mon Sep 22 22:17:54 2014 From: topband at contesting.com (Charles Stackhouse via Topband) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 02:17:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Topband: Beverage antenna isolation measurements Message-ID: <1718999488.12779.1411438674967.JavaMail.yahoo@jws106107.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ???? I have just finished installing 6 Beverage antennas in the woods north of my house. Details are below. My question to the group involves measuring the isolation of these antennas from my transmitting antennas. I am testing by transmitting on all bands with either 100 or 500 watts and simultaneously measuring RF levels on the Beverage feedline in the shack.? Eventually I want to set up an SO2R station.???? To measure the power, I am using a homebrew RF power meter kitted by Kanga and based on the AD8307 (QST June 2001 - W7ZOI and W7PUA). This is a 50 ohm instrument and I feed the Beverages with 75 ohm RG-6.?? This means a nominal VSWR of 1.5:1 (14 db return loss).? I placed an ICE Model 401 bandstop BCP filter in front of the meter. ???? The raw results look good with the worst isolation to date being 65 db, i.e. 160 microwatts while transmitting with 500 watts.? I have some more measurements to finish with the triband yagi aimed in a few different directions. ???? How much inaccuracy is there in this method due to the 75/50 ohm mismatch at such low power levels (16 nanowatts to 160 milliwatts)?? Is there an easy mathematical correction (for a guy who took calculus 39 years ago) for the impedance mismatch or does it matter? ?? Beverage antenna details: (map of Beverages is on my QRZ.com page) My Beverage antenna project is completed and the 6 antennas seem to work well.? They are between 470 and 860 feet long so as to stay on my property and radiate from a central hub. I used 17g galvanized fence wire 7 feet high held up with plastic fence insulators nailed to trees. ? They point to 40, 80, 160, 240, 280 and 340 degrees.? I terminate them with Ohmite 470 ohm 2 watt resistors. The transformers are the usual 6.25:1 (5T,2T) on a BN73-202 core. Four foot ground rods are driven at the ends of each Beverage. There is 20-30 feet of RG-6 coax from the transformers to the homebrew switchbox. I use 24v relays (RK1-24V) and run almost 600 feet of CAT5 for a control line.? Unused antennas are not grounded. The RG6 feedline goes about 30 feet from the switch towards the shack where the braid is grounded.? I put a K9YC choke (8 turns of the RG-6 wound around a #31 Big Clamp-On) on the shack side of the braid ground and then the coax runs almost 600 feet back to the shack. I ground the braid again just outside the shack. In the shack is a homebrew switch box containing a 24v linear power supply and a 7 position rotary switch. (The 7th position is labelled for an external switch when I get around to building one similar to LA4HIA). Thanks for reading this verbose question. I spared readers the details of cutting paths for these antennas totalling 4090 feet through woods infested with an understory of invasive European buckthorn, multiflora rose, and honeysuckle. Of course it was done in the hottest, most humid and most mosquito infested part of our late summer. 73, Charlie W2GN From tomg3olb at gmail.com Tue Sep 23 05:15:05 2014 From: tomg3olb at gmail.com (Tom Boucher) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:15:05 +0100 Subject: Topband: BCB Interference Message-ID: <1355C41C029744BB8776D75078D55012@TomPC> Rather than use a filter capable of handling the transmit power, surely a better solution for the K3 would be to use a separate 160m receiving antenna, via a small filter on the BNC auxiliary antenna input. 73 Tom G3OLB From K1PX at msn.com Thu Sep 25 08:10:27 2014 From: K1PX at msn.com (Jim Monahan) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 08:10:27 -0400 Subject: Topband: Smart meter interference Message-ID: All: While this might best be addressed to the RFI reflector, I'm wondering if among the learned subscribers here on the Topband reflector, some of you might have some knowledge or experience with this issue. Recently, a smart meter was installed here and immediately I heard a buzzing sound on all of the lower bands including 160 but it was loudest on 30 meters followed by 40 meters. On 30 meters, it was 10 over S9! Using the NB-Wide mode eliminates most of it but causes the usual distortion associated with the NB being turned on. It is there most of the time during the day and sometimes during the night. After considerable effort including shutting down all power throughout my house and checking the power system ground, a battery operated AM/FM/SW radio confirmed it was loudest behind the back of the meter. This is the digital electronics analyzing data that is causing the problem and not the RF signal that is around 902 MHz. Sweeping the band, the levels peaks about every 3 MHz including at 7 and 10 MHz. ARRL says they have had no complaints about these meters! A maintenance engineer from the utility confirmed the problem and says his expressed concerns were not addressed. He further indicated that at business, condo and apartment complexes where large number of these meters are installed, the interference was particularly noticed. I suspect that some appropriate filter at the back of the meter would at least reduce the level but I wonder if anyone has addressed this problem. It looks like moving my antennas farther from the house is the most expeditious route in reducing the levels detected. Perhaps a direct reply would be best to avoid excessive bandwidth here. Thanks in advance. Jim, K1PX K1PX at msn.com From charlie-cunningham at nc.rr.com Thu Sep 25 10:37:24 2014 From: charlie-cunningham at nc.rr.com (Charlie) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 10:37:24 -0400 Subject: Topband: Smart meter interference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gee that's a really bad one, Jim! I've spent many years of my life getting electricity meters compliant with FCC rules! Sound like that on is non-compliant with either the radiated or perhaps more likely, line-conducted, emissions! Can you tell me who is the manufacturer of the manufacturer of the meter? Sadly, you may have to take the issue up with the utility and the FCC. Regards, Charlie, K4OTV -----Original Message----- From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Monahan Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 8:10 AM To: topband Subject: Topband: Smart meter interference All: While this might best be addressed to the RFI reflector, I'm wondering if among the learned subscribers here on the Topband reflector, some of you might have some knowledge or experience with this issue. Recently, a smart meter was installed here and immediately I heard a buzzing sound on all of the lower bands including 160 but it was loudest on 30 meters followed by 40 meters. On 30 meters, it was 10 over S9! Using the NB-Wide mode eliminates most of it but causes the usual distortion associated with the NB being turned on. It is there most of the time during the day and sometimes during the night. After considerable effort including shutting down all power throughout my house and checking the power system ground, a battery operated AM/FM/SW radio confirmed it was loudest behind the back of the meter. This is the digital electronics analyzing data that is causing the problem and not the RF signal that is around 902 MHz. Sweeping the band, the levels peaks about every 3 MHz including at 7 and 10 MHz. ARRL says they have had no complaints about these meters! A maintenance engineer from the utility confirmed the problem and says his expressed concerns were not addressed. He further indicated that at business, condo and apartment complexes where large number of these meters are installed, the interference was particularly noticed. I suspect that some appropriate filter at the back of the meter would at least reduce the level but I wonder if anyone has addressed this problem. It looks like moving my antennas farther from the house is the most expeditious route in reducing the levels detected. Perhaps a direct reply would be best to avoid excessive bandwidth here. Thanks in advance. Jim, K1PX K1PX at msn.com _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From charlie-cunningham at nc.rr.com Thu Sep 25 11:37:30 2014 From: charlie-cunningham at nc.rr.com (Charlie) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 11:37:30 -0400 Subject: Topband: Smart meter interference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Jim Well, it's a Landis+Gyr Focus Meter, single-phase, Form 2S . One thing that I noted is that it's really off-center in the meter cover? It might be damaged or improperly assembled or installed. Seems that Landis + Gyr might have sold off part of their business a while back. I can go up to the FCC Equipment Authorization pages and see what's on file for it up there. Your noise might be digital microprocessor junk, or it could also be related to some of the internal switching power supplies. Let me see what I might learn! I'd start by filing a complaint with the utility. Are you on New England Electric's system? I'll be back in touch. 73 Charlie, K4OTV From: Jim Monahan [mailto:K1PX at msn.com] Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 11:17 AM To: Charlie Subject: Re: Topband: Smart meter interference Charlie: I ended up taking two .jpg pics of the front of the meter which shows all of the info. UI is the name of the utility. Thanks for any info! Jim, K1PX K1PX at msn.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Charlie To: 'Jim Monahan' ; 'topband' Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 10:37 AM Subject: RE: Topband: Smart meter interference Gee that's a really bad one, Jim! I've spent many years of my life getting electricity meters compliant with FCC rules! Sound like that on is non-compliant with either the radiated or perhaps more likely, line-conducted, emissions! Can you tell me who is the manufacturer of the manufacturer of the meter? Sadly, you may have to take the issue up with the utility and the FCC. Regards, Charlie, K4OTV -----Original Message----- From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Monahan Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 8:10 AM To: topband Subject: Topband: Smart meter interference All: While this might best be addressed to the RFI reflector, I'm wondering if among the learned subscribers here on the Topband reflector, some of you might have some knowledge or experience with this issue. Recently, a smart meter was installed here and immediately I heard a buzzing sound on all of the lower bands including 160 but it was loudest on 30 meters followed by 40 meters. On 30 meters, it was 10 over S9! Using the NB-Wide mode eliminates most of it but causes the usual distortion associated with the NB being turned on. It is there most of the time during the day and sometimes during the night. After considerable effort including shutting down all power throughout my house and checking the power system ground, a battery operated AM/FM/SW radio confirmed it was loudest behind the back of the meter. This is the digital electronics analyzing data that is causing the problem and not the RF signal that is around 902 MHz. Sweeping the band, the levels peaks about every 3 MHz including at 7 and 10 MHz. ARRL says they have had no complaints about these meters! A maintenance engineer from the utility confirmed the problem and says his expressed concerns were not addressed. He further indicated that at business, condo and apartment complexes where large number of these meters are installed, the interference was particularly noticed. I suspect that some appropriate filter at the back of the meter would at least reduce the level but I wonder if anyone has addressed this problem. It looks like moving my antennas farther from the house is the most expeditious route in reducing the levels detected. Perhaps a direct reply would be best to avoid excessive bandwidth here. Thanks in advance. Jim, K1PX K1PX at msn.com _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Thu Sep 25 12:35:55 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:35:55 -0700 Subject: Topband: Smart meter interference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5424446B.10409@audiosystemsgroup.com> Yes, and this IS the sort of issue that ought to be posted to the RFI reflector, and addressed to ARRL. Be prepared to provide the info Charlie has noted. 73, Jim K9YC On Thu,9/25/2014 7:37 AM, Charlie wrote: > Gee that's a really bad one, Jim! > > I've spent many years of my life getting electricity meters compliant with > FCC rules! Sound like that on is non-compliant with either the radiated or > perhaps more likely, line-conducted, emissions! Can you tell me who is the > manufacturer of the manufacturer of the meter? Sadly, you may have to take > the issue up with the utility and the FCC. > > Regards, > Charlie, K4OTV > > -----Original Message----- > From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim > Monahan > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 8:10 AM > To: topband > Subject: Topband: Smart meter interference > > All: > > While this might best be addressed to the RFI reflector, I'm wondering if > among the learned subscribers here on the Topband reflector, some of you > might have some knowledge or experience with this issue. > > Recently, a smart meter was installed here and immediately I heard a buzzing > sound on all of the lower bands including 160 but it was loudest on 30 > meters followed by 40 meters. > > On 30 meters, it was 10 over S9! > > Using the NB-Wide mode eliminates most of it but causes the usual distortion > associated with the NB being turned on. > > It is there most of the time during the day and sometimes during the night. > > After considerable effort including shutting down all power throughout my > house and checking the power system ground, a battery operated AM/FM/SW > radio confirmed it was loudest behind the back of the meter. > > This is the digital electronics analyzing data that is causing the problem > and not the RF signal that is around 902 MHz. > > Sweeping the band, the levels peaks about every 3 MHz including at 7 and > 10 MHz. > > ARRL says they have had no complaints about these meters! > > A maintenance engineer from the utility confirmed the problem and says his > expressed concerns were not addressed. > > He further indicated that at business, condo and apartment complexes where > large number of these meters are installed, the interference was > particularly noticed. > > I suspect that some appropriate filter at the back of the meter would at > least reduce the level but I wonder if anyone has addressed this problem. > > It looks like moving my antennas farther from the house is the most > expeditious route in reducing the levels detected. > > Perhaps a direct reply would be best to avoid excessive bandwidth here. > > Thanks in advance. > > Jim, K1PX > > K1PX at msn.com > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From k1fz at myfairpoint.net Thu Sep 25 13:30:36 2014 From: k1fz at myfairpoint.net (k1fz at myfairpoint.net) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:30:36 -0400 Subject: Topband: Remote pre-amp power source Message-ID: <20140925133036.z089r8stck0ogks8@webmail.myfairpoint.net> Anyone using, or know of a source, for a compact battery with solar cell charger, to power a remote antenna pre-amp ? (Not looking to power up through the coax cable) 73 Bruce-K1FZ www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Thu Sep 25 13:56:19 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 10:56:19 -0700 Subject: Topband: Remote pre-amp power source In-Reply-To: <20140925133036.z089r8stck0ogks8@webmail.myfairpoint.net> References: <20140925133036.z089r8stck0ogks8@webmail.myfairpoint.net> Message-ID: <54245743.2010905@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Thu,9/25/2014 10:30 AM, k1fz at myfairpoint.net wrote: > Anyone using, or know of a source, for a compact battery with solar cell charger, to power a remote antenna pre-amp ? > (Not looking to power up through the coax cable) Lots of batteries, chargers, and solar charge controllers here. http://www.batteryspace.com/ The company is based in the SF Bay Area, and is the US partner of a small (by Chinese standards) Chinese battery manufacturer. The Chinese company makes the individual cells, the US company packages them for a very wide range of applications and sells them. My neighbor, W6GJB, bought one of their LiFePO4 packs for use with his KX3 and KXPA100 that looks quite solid. Choose the battery technology you want to use, then the voltage range, and you get a page of packs with many different package sizes and current ranges. Many of the packaging differences are made to fit as replacements for custom packs in all sorts of equipment. 73, Jim K9YC From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Thu Sep 25 14:06:53 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 11:06:53 -0700 Subject: Topband: Remote pre-amp power source In-Reply-To: <54245743.2010905@audiosystemsgroup.com> References: <20140925133036.z089r8stck0ogks8@webmail.myfairpoint.net> <54245743.2010905@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <542459BD.8030803@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Thu,9/25/2014 10:56 AM, Jim Brown wrote: > Lots of batteries, chargers, and solar charge controllers here. > http://www.batteryspace.com/ I forgot to mention that the Genasun GV-series MPPT charge controllers are RF quiet. They make 5A and 10A controllers for Lead-Acid, Li-Ion, and LiFePO4 batteries. They are US-made, and not cheap. 73, Jim K9YC From k1fz at myfairpoint.net Thu Sep 25 14:55:09 2014 From: k1fz at myfairpoint.net (k1fz at myfairpoint.net) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:55:09 -0400 Subject: Topband: Remote pre-amp power source In-Reply-To: References: <20140925133036.z089r8stck0ogks8@webmail.myfairpoint.net> Message-ID: <20140925145509.40pex2npk4kk8sog@webmail.myfairpoint.net> Hi Don, Pre-amp requires 12-18 volts at 130ma. (low band DXing- nightime use) This? solar charger puts out 20 volts that could be reduced to 15 volts with a three legged regulator.? I was hoping to find a pre-assembled charger & battery, but may have to build one. http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt-solar-battery-charger-68692.html 73 Bruce-K1FZ What is the operating current and voltage of the preamp you plan to use?? Since it sounds like the preamp will be powered on all the time this information will be key in the selection of the battery capacity and solar panel rating. Don (wd8dsb) On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:30 PM, wrote: Anyone using, or know of a source, for a compact battery with solar cell charger, to power a remote antenna pre-amp ? 73 Bruce-K1FZ www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Thu Sep 25 15:26:33 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:26:33 -0700 Subject: Topband: Remote pre-amp power source In-Reply-To: <20140925145509.40pex2npk4kk8sog@webmail.myfairpoint.net> References: <20140925133036.z089r8stck0ogks8@webmail.myfairpoint.net> <20140925145509.40pex2npk4kk8sog@webmail.myfairpoint.net> Message-ID: <54246C69.6090500@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Thu,9/25/2014 11:55 AM, k1fz at myfairpoint.net wrote: > I was hoping to find a pre-assembled charger & battery, but may have > to build one. Don't count on anything from Harbor Freight being RF-quiet. :) Here's a simple hysteresis-type charge controller that is RF-quiet. It's also cheap -- $20. It's not as efficient as the Genesun, but may be enough to run a preamp, depending on the panel(s) and battery. Remember that unless the preamp is switched on and off when not in use, that 130 mA becomes 3.1 Ah if runing 24/7. And if your use is mostly during the winter, take into account that days are shorter and sometimes not very bright. http://www.batteryjunction.com/sunforce-60012.html?gclid=CIe49eKK_cACFROTfgodl0oAJg 73, Jim K9YC From wd8dsb at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 19:33:59 2014 From: wd8dsb at gmail.com (Don Kirk) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:33:59 -0400 Subject: Topband: Remote pre-amp power source In-Reply-To: <20140925145509.40pex2npk4kk8sog@webmail.myfairpoint.net> References: <20140925133036.z089r8stck0ogks8@webmail.myfairpoint.net> <20140925145509.40pex2npk4kk8sog@webmail.myfairpoint.net> Message-ID: Hi Bruce, Their are numerous methods used for sizing solar panel systems, and using one of the common methods provides the following for your application as follows : Using a battery charging efficiency factor of 120%, and Portland Maine as the location (winter average = 3.56 sun hours/day) . And designing for a reserve capacity of 3 days (3 days of no sun), with a minimum battery capacity of 50%. If designing for continuous power applied to the preamp (24 hours per day) : Required battery capacity = 18.7 Ah, Solar panel = 1.05 amps (almost a 20 watt panel). If designing for 15 hours of continuous service (using a day/night controller) : Required battery capacity = 11.7 Ah, Solar Panel = 0.66 amps (approximately a 10 watt panel). The above method is somewhat simplistic (does not take into account how cold temperature impacts the capacity of the battery, etc.), nevertheless it provides some reasonable numbers to put things into perspective. I'm sure you will think the panel and battery are large, but that's what it takes to handle continuous service during the winter when day light is minimum. Note : solar panels really operate like a constant current source versus a constant voltage source, therefore a typical solar panel for 12 volt battery charging will have an open circuit voltage of around 21 volts but this is under a zero output current condition. The maximum output current of a solar panel is when you have it's output short circuited but it's current at max power is not much less than its short circuit current. An easy way to characterize what kind of panel you have is to measure under bright sunlight the short circuit current, and the open circuit voltage of the panel. Don (wd8dsb) On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:55 PM, wrote: > > Hi Don, > > Pre-amp requires 12-18 volts at 130ma. (low band DXing- nightime use) > > This solar charger puts out 20 volts that could be reduced to 15 volts > with a three legged regulator. I was hoping to find a pre-assembled > charger & battery, but may have to build one. > http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt-solar-battery-charger-68692.html > > 73 > Bruce-K1FZ > > What is the operating current and voltage of the preamp you plan to > use? Since it sounds like the preamp will be powered on all the time this > information will be key in the selection of the battery capacity and solar > panel rating. > Don (wd8dsb) > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:30 PM, wrote: > > Anyone using, or know of a source, for a compact battery with solar > cell charger, to power a remote antenna pre-amp ? > 73 Bruce-K1FZ > www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From w8ji at w8ji.com Thu Sep 25 19:34:59 2014 From: w8ji at w8ji.com (Tom W8JI) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:34:59 -0400 Subject: Topband: Remote pre-amp power source References: <20140925133036.z089r8stck0ogks8@webmail.myfairpoint.net> <20140925145509.40pex2npk4kk8sog@webmail.myfairpoint.net> Message-ID: Something to keep in mind.... Even in a quiet location with a -10 dBd gain very directional antenna, the preamp can be thousands of feet from the antenna on 160 with no ill effects. My eight vertical array, for example, has about 600 feet of F6, then 2000 feet of F11, then the preamp. It limits on propagated noise even in daylight. Of course there are things that might make a remote amplifier useful, such as very lossy feedlines and very low gain antennas, but even 3000 feet of F11 type cable between antenna and preamp isn't an issue with normal antennas. What might be an issue is a compact loop or other very negative gain antenna. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Don Kirk" Cc: "Topband" Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 2:55 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Remote pre-amp power source > > Hi Don, > > Pre-amp requires 12-18 volts at 130ma. (low band DXing- nightime use) > > This solar charger puts out 20 volts that could be reduced to 15 volts > with a three legged regulator. I was hoping to find a pre-assembled > charger & battery, but may have to build one. > http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt-solar-battery-charger-68692.html > > 73 > Bruce-K1FZ > > What is the operating current and voltage of the preamp you plan to > use? Since it sounds like the preamp will be powered on all the time this > information will be key in the selection of the battery capacity and solar > panel rating. > Don (wd8dsb) > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:30 PM, wrote: > > Anyone using, or know of a source, for a compact battery with solar > cell charger, to power a remote antenna pre-amp ? > 73 Bruce-K1FZ > www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4025/8270 - Release Date: 09/25/14 > From k1fz at myfairpoint.net Thu Sep 25 19:36:55 2014 From: k1fz at myfairpoint.net (k1fz) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:36:55 -0400 Subject: Topband: Fw: Remote pre-amp power source Message-ID: <000801cfd919$9890a5e0$2e01a8c0@w1tjq> Thanks to all for all the good information. Appreciate the help. Planning to run the preamp only in darkness with the help of a photo electric cell and light/sunlight. 73 Bruce-K1FZ www.qsl.net/k1fz/bogantennanotes/index.html Ah if runing 24/7. And if your use is mostly during the winter, take into account that days are shorter and sometimes not very bright. _________________ From garyk9gs at wi.rr.com Thu Sep 25 22:13:42 2014 From: garyk9gs at wi.rr.com (Gary K9GS) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 21:13:42 -0500 Subject: Topband: Fw: Remote pre-amp power source In-Reply-To: <000801cfd919$9890a5e0$2e01a8c0@w1tjq> References: <000801cfd919$9890a5e0$2e01a8c0@w1tjq> Message-ID: <5424CBD6.4040200@wi.rr.com> Hello Bruce, You might also try a nearby marine equipment dealer. They make solar charging systems for keeping boat batteries charged and also for sailboat electronics. On 9/25/2014 6:36 PM, k1fz wrote: > Thanks to all for all the good information. Appreciate the help. > Planning to run the preamp only in darkness with the help of a photo > electric cell and light/sunlight. > > 73 > Bruce-K1FZ > www.qsl.net/k1fz/bogantennanotes/index.html > > > Ah if runing 24/7. And if your use is mostly during the > winter, take into account that days are shorter and sometimes not very > bright. > > > _________________ > > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > -- > 73, > > Gary K9GS > > Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org > Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com > CW Ops #1032 http://www.cwops.org > > ************************************************ --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From grants2 at pacbell.net Fri Sep 26 01:22:12 2014 From: grants2 at pacbell.net (Grant Saviers) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 22:22:12 -0700 Subject: Topband: [Bulk] Re: Remote pre-amp power source In-Reply-To: References: <20140925133036.z089r8stck0ogks8@webmail.myfairpoint.net> <20140925145509.40pex2npk4kk8sog@webmail.myfairpoint.net> Message-ID: <5424F804.5070402@pacbell.net> The way to squeeze the most watt-hours out of panels and into batteries is with MPPT regulators. "Maximum power point" regulators that adjust rapidly to the real time insolation. A series regulator is throwing away W-H. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_point_tracking some interesting references particularly the thesis that describes what he built with the PIC based controller. OTOH, a 15 to 20 watt panel connected to a 100 A-H battery really doesn't need a regulator. Just check the water every few months. I had such a setup run a community water system radio control of the well pumps and the battery would last about 5 years 24 x 365, with about a 50ma load. Worked in San Jose, CA. Might not work in Seattle. :-( Grant KZ1W Redmond, WA On 9/25/2014 4:33 PM, Don Kirk wrote: > Hi Bruce, > > Their are numerous methods used for sizing solar panel systems, and using > one of the common methods provides the following for your application as > follows : > > Using a battery charging efficiency factor of 120%, and Portland Maine as > the location (winter average = 3.56 sun hours/day) . And designing for a > reserve capacity of 3 days (3 days of no sun), with a minimum battery > capacity of 50%. > > If designing for continuous power applied to the preamp (24 hours per day) > : Required battery capacity = 18.7 Ah, Solar panel = 1.05 amps (almost a 20 > watt panel). > > If designing for 15 hours of continuous service (using a day/night > controller) : Required battery capacity = 11.7 Ah, Solar Panel = 0.66 amps > (approximately a 10 watt panel). > > The above method is somewhat simplistic (does not take into account how > cold temperature impacts the capacity of the battery, etc.), nevertheless > it provides some reasonable numbers to put things into perspective. > > I'm sure you will think the panel and battery are large, but that's what it > takes to handle continuous service during the winter when day light is > minimum. > > Note : solar panels really operate like a constant current source versus a > constant voltage source, therefore a typical solar panel for 12 volt > battery charging will have an open circuit voltage of around 21 volts but > this is under a zero output current condition. The maximum output current > of a solar panel is when you have it's output short circuited but it's > current at max power is not much less than its short circuit current. An > easy way to characterize what kind of panel you have is to measure under > bright sunlight the short circuit current, and the open circuit voltage of > the panel. > > Don (wd8dsb) > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:55 PM, wrote: > >> Hi Don, >> >> Pre-amp requires 12-18 volts at 130ma. (low band DXing- nightime use) >> >> This solar charger puts out 20 volts that could be reduced to 15 volts >> with a three legged regulator. I was hoping to find a pre-assembled >> charger & battery, but may have to build one. >> http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt-solar-battery-charger-68692.html >> >> 73 >> Bruce-K1FZ >> >> What is the operating current and voltage of the preamp you plan to >> use? Since it sounds like the preamp will be powered on all the time this >> information will be key in the selection of the battery capacity and solar >> panel rating. >> Don (wd8dsb) >> >> On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:30 PM, wrote: >> >> Anyone using, or know of a source, for a compact battery with solar >> cell charger, to power a remote antenna pre-amp ? >> 73 Bruce-K1FZ >> www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html >> >> _________________ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> >> >> _________________ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From tshoppa at gmail.com Fri Sep 26 08:29:20 2014 From: tshoppa at gmail.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 08:29:20 -0400 Subject: Topband: Remote pre-amp power source In-Reply-To: <20140925133036.z089r8stck0ogks8@webmail.myfairpoint.net> References: <20140925133036.z089r8stck0ogks8@webmail.myfairpoint.net> Message-ID: If the pre-amp point is readily accessible and in a not easy spot to get consistent sunlight (e.g. dense forest), it sometimes makes more economic sense to use dry cells and/or rechargeable batteries that can be swapped out for recharging every few days. P.S. I work in an industry that until very recently used No. 6 cells for some remote applications :-) Tim N3QE On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:30 PM, wrote: > Anyone using, or know of a source, for a compact battery with solar cell > charger, to power a remote antenna pre-amp ? > (Not looking to power up through the coax cable) > > 73 > Bruce-K1FZ > www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From topband at contesting.com Fri Sep 26 12:30:58 2014 From: topband at contesting.com (Dan Maguire via Topband) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 09:30:58 -0700 Subject: Topband: Matching network info for 80 & 160M needed Message-ID: <1411749058.81026.YahooMailBasic@web122602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Nermin wrote: >>> There was an article in recent issue of ARRL QST, A 20 and 40 meter Vertical on "Autopilot", ... That article by K6MHE is available here: http://k6mhe.com/files/DualBandVert.pdf And here's a blog entry and a corresponding YouTube video by AB8XX for a similar 80m/40m antenna: http://ab8xx.blogspot.com/2008/12/80m40m-dual-band-vertical.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMfI_WRAIYQ This entire system, antenna plus "autopilot" matching network, can be modeled using AutoEZ and the EZNEC "L Networks" feature. A conventional low pass L network has an inductor in the series branch and a capacitor in the shunt branch. However, EZNEC L networks can have compound components in each branch. Hence the matching network can be modeled like this (from the K6MHE article). http://ac6la.com/adhoc/DualBand1.png Here is the AutoEZ L Networks table with variables K-L-M being used for the component C1-L1-C2 values. The source is on V1, the network input port. The network output port is the antenna feedpoint. http://ac6la.com/adhoc/DualBand2.png The following extract from the AutoEZ Variables sheet tab shows the initial values for the K6MHE 40m/20m setup. Instructions for setting the initial network component values (variables K-L-M) are found in additional comments on the sheet, not shown. Note that ground loss due to a less than perfect radial field is simulated using variable D in conjunction with MININEC-type ground; actual radials are not included in the model (although you may add them if you wish and change to High Accuracy ground). Approximate ground loss values are: 4 radials, 29 ohms; 8 radials, 18 ohms; 16 radials, 9 ohms; 32 radials, 4 ohms. http://ac6la.com/adhoc/DualBand3.png With the C1-L1-C2 component values as set above, the L network look like this when the model is passed to EZNEC. http://ac6la.com/adhoc/DualBand4.png Once the initial network values are set, the AutoEZ optimizer can be used to adjust components C1, L1, and C2 (variables K-L-M) to produce the lowest possible SWR at the two midband frequencies. http://ac6la.com/adhoc/DualBand5.png After optimization, here are the final SWR values for seven 40m frequencies and eight 20m frequencies. This is similar to Fig 5 in the K6MHE article except that all frequencies are shown on a single chart. (Blue markup added for clarity.) http://ac6la.com/adhoc/DualBand6.png Doing the same kind of analysis for 160m/80m (with radiator length "B" = 132 ft) gives these SWR values, this time shown with a different scale for SWR (on the right). The midband SWR values are fine (remember, right scale) but because of the relatively wider widths of 160 and 80 the band edge SWR values are higher. http://ac6la.com/adhoc/DualBand7.png Of course it would be possible to use relays to implement two different "autopilot" matching networks, one for the low end of 160 and 80 and a second for the high end of the bands; I didn't model that. For those who already have AutoEZ (http://ac6la.com/autoez.html) or who would like to experiment with the free demo version, here is the model used for this study. http://ac6la.com/adhoc/DualBandVert.weq Download that file, use the "Open Model File" button, then tab to the Variables sheet to get started. As downloaded, the model is ready to be optimized (Optimize tab, "Start" button) and then calculated over multiple frequencies (Calculate tab, "Calculate All" button). The number of segments has been set to allow use with the free demo version. I'll be happy to answer any questions even if you are using the demo version of AutoEZ. One last thing. Nermin, S58DX, has a really cute Golden Retriever: http://files.qrz.com/x/s58dx/21022011022.jpg Being a dog lover I just had to include that link! Dan, AC6LA http://ac6la.com From topband at contesting.com Sat Sep 27 09:50:03 2014 From: topband at contesting.com (Cqtestk4xs--- via Topband) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 09:50:03 -0400 Subject: Topband: 160 ground plane choke Message-ID: <25238.7cc9c2bf.41581a8b@aol.com> I've been using a 160 GP with 4 radials. It's a Tee-top supported with a rope between two towers, with the top around 165 feet and the base at 70 feet. I'm feeding it with RG8X to keep the weight down on the rope which supports it. Although it works well I would like to negate any loading which might be taking place on the feed line which drops from straight down from the base. Any ideas for a cheap, easily made, effective choke on the feedline? Bill K4XS/KH7XS From km1h at jeremy.qozzy.com Sat Sep 27 10:34:36 2014 From: km1h at jeremy.qozzy.com (Carl) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 10:34:36 -0400 Subject: Topband: 160 ground plane choke References: <25238.7cc9c2bf.41581a8b@aol.com> Message-ID: I would think the W2DU style would be the lightest but also pretty ineffective on 160 as well as power limited. Use a heavier duty rope (or #12 solid Copperweld , non resonant lengths of course for all bands), and a couple of Fair-Rite 2631803802 31 mix 2.4" toroids. Use RG-400, to wrap the toroids and then LMR-400 or similar if running 1500W. RG-8X will handle 1500W on 160 but its a bit marginal especially when the VSWR climbs or when you decide to try digital or RTTY. Carl KM1H ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cqtestk4xs--- via Topband" To: Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 9:50 AM Subject: Topband: 160 ground plane choke > I've been using a 160 GP with 4 radials. It's a Tee-top supported with a > rope between two towers, with the top around 165 feet and the base at 70 > feet. I'm feeding it with RG8X to keep the weight down on the rope which > supports it. > > Although it works well I would like to negate any loading which might be > taking place on the feed line which drops from straight down from the > base. > Any ideas for a cheap, easily made, effective choke on the feedline? > > Bill K4XS/KH7XS > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4025/8283 - Release Date: 09/27/14 > From w8ji at w8ji.com Sun Sep 28 07:40:01 2014 From: w8ji at w8ji.com (Tom W8JI) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 07:40:01 -0400 Subject: Topband: 160 ground plane choke References: <25238.7cc9c2bf.41581a8b@aol.com> Message-ID: <9CF82157C15D4F7AAB1C26B9802C34F9@MAIN> Bill, Models and measurements show, with four full size radials and 1500 watts, you can have a few hundred volts RMS between the radial common point and earth. That voltage, of course, increases with non-resonant radials. In an uncontrolled or undefined application, where a person has no idea what is really going on, the only choice is to either overkill with extremes or just throw something in there and see how it works. This is a very controlled impedance situation, which is great. We have some idea of what is on each side of the choke and of voltage driving the choke. There are two ways to approach this, by grounding or with a choke. The best way to handle it depends on your resources, what you prefer appearance wise, and the physical layout. 1.) If the antenna is out away from noise sources and things it might bother, and if the coax is in the air away from things, you can simply ground the feedline shield fairly well 1/8th to 1/4 wave from the radial common point. This will do exactly what any choke will do. The shield will look like a high impedance at the radials, and minimize current flow. 2.) You can ground the coax right below the antenna feedpoint, and insert some form of common mode choke between the shield's earthed ground and the antenna feedpoint. This choke can be an air core coil of coax at ground level, or a ferrite sleeve balun, or something wound on a core. You probably have a few hundred volts there driving the choke's impedance, so you have to consider that with cores. This is not a critical system by any stretch of the imagination, and an air-core coil will work just fine (as would proper feedline suspension and grounding), but what you need really depends on what you want to do and what you have available. It would become progressively more critical if you had fewer radials, no matter what magical type of counterpoise it might be. One radial would be much worse to decouple, and one short radial could be horrible to decouple. You have an easy system with four resonant radials. If it were mine, I'd just break out the PVC 4" pipe and maybe 50-70 feet of RG8X for an air choke, and a few copper pipe ground rods. I'd do that because of lightning around here, and because it would as well or better than anything else I could do. 73 Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cqtestk4xs--- via Topband" To: Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 9:50 AM Subject: Topband: 160 ground plane choke > I've been using a 160 GP with 4 radials. It's a Tee-top supported with a > rope between two towers, with the top around 165 feet and the base at 70 > feet. I'm feeding it with RG8X to keep the weight down on the rope which > supports it. > > Although it works well I would like to negate any loading which might be > taking place on the feed line which drops from straight down from the > base. > Any ideas for a cheap, easily made, effective choke on the feedline? > > Bill K4XS/KH7XS > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4025/8283 - Release Date: 09/27/14 > From topband at contesting.com Mon Sep 29 12:49:10 2014 From: topband at contesting.com (Cqtestk4xs--- via Topband) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 12:49:10 -0400 Subject: Topband: 160 GP Choke Message-ID: <81c66.13026761.415ae786@aol.com> Thanks to all who responded. One of the suggestions was to wrap about 40-45 turns of RG8X mini on a PVC core with a diameter of 4 inches....lightweight and easy. Part two was to ground the braid of the feeder line coax at the point where it reaches ground level. What do you think? Bill K4XS From wd8dsb at gmail.com Mon Sep 29 13:42:35 2014 From: wd8dsb at gmail.com (Don Kirk) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 13:42:35 -0400 Subject: Topband: 160 meters RFI caused by low voltage bookcase lights Message-ID: Late last week I encountered interference on 160 meters which was repeating at 41 khz intervals, and this morning I was able to track the problem down to low voltage bookcase lights at my neighbors home which is 430 feet away. I created a website to document this case which includes a link to a youtube video that contains receive audio of the noise, and my simple website URL is http://sites.google.com/site/bookcaselightsrfi/ The signal was S9 on 160 meters (approximately 15 dB above my noise floor when using a 500 hz receive filter), and it could be heard up into the 80 meter band. We (my neighbor and I) will now dig into his low voltage lighting system to see what we can do to eliminate the interference. Just FYI, Don Kirk (wd8dsb) From wb6rse1 at mac.com Mon Sep 29 13:43:38 2014 From: wb6rse1 at mac.com (wb6rse1 at mac.com) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 10:43:38 -0700 Subject: Topband: 160 GP Choke In-Reply-To: <81c66.13026761.415ae786@aol.com> References: <81c66.13026761.415ae786@aol.com> Message-ID: Bill - An effective common-mode choke can be made with 17 turns of RG58-coax wound on to an Amidon FT240-31 core. See: www.karinya.net/g3txq/chokes/ GL - Steve WB6RSE On Sep 29, 2014, at 9:49 AM, Cqtestk4xs--- via Topband wrote: What do you think? Bill K4XS From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Mon Sep 29 14:56:22 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 11:56:22 -0700 Subject: Topband: 160 GP Choke In-Reply-To: References: <81c66.13026761.415ae786@aol.com> Message-ID: <5429AB56.50902@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Mon,9/29/2014 10:43 AM, wb6rse1 at mac.com wrote: > Bill - An effective common-mode choke can be made with 17 turns of RG58-coax wound on to an Amidon FT240-31 core. It's not an Amidon core, it's a Fair-Rite core. It's a LOT cheaper when you buy from a Fair-Rite distributor. See Appendix One of k9yc.com/RFI-Ham.pdf 73, Jim K9YC From w8ji at w8ji.com Mon Sep 29 15:13:42 2014 From: w8ji at w8ji.com (Tom W8JI) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 15:13:42 -0400 Subject: Topband: 160 GP Choke References: <81c66.13026761.415ae786@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D84673BACEF4151BE41B228C02E78D9@MAIN> If it were my system, I would use an air core choke like you posted and ground the feedline where it reaches earth. The nice thing is you can install the choke right at ground level with no ill effects at all. Cheap, simple, and clean. It will work as well as anything else you can do and be very reliable. 73 Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cqtestk4xs--- via Topband" To: Sent: Monday, September 29, 2014 12:49 PM Subject: Topband: 160 GP Choke > Thanks to all who responded. > > One of the suggestions was to wrap about 40-45 turns of RG8X mini on a > PVC > core with a diameter of 4 inches....lightweight and easy. Part two was > to > ground the braid of the feeder line coax at the point where it reaches > ground level. > > What do you think? > > Bill K4XS > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4025/8293 - Release Date: 09/29/14 > From mikewate at gmail.com Mon Sep 29 17:31:22 2014 From: mikewate at gmail.com (Mike Waters) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 16:31:22 -0500 Subject: Topband: 160 GP Choke In-Reply-To: <81c66.13026761.415ae786@aol.com> References: <81c66.13026761.415ae786@aol.com> Message-ID: Bill, Photos of the common-mode choke at the base of mine ( http://www.w0btu.com/160_meters.html#inv-l_antenna) are at http://www.w0btu.com/files/antenna/160m_inv-L It's 6 turns of F-6 coax through four 2.4" OD Fair-rite #31 cores ($7 each from Mouser), per K9YC's PDF. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Mon Sep 29 18:44:15 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 15:44:15 -0700 Subject: Topband: 160 GP Choke In-Reply-To: References: <81c66.13026761.415ae786@aol.com> Message-ID: <5429E0BF.4020108@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Mon,9/29/2014 2:31 PM, Mike Waters wrote: > It's 6 turns of F-6 coax through four 2.4" OD Fair-rite #31 cores ($7 each > from Mouser), per K9YC's PDF. My pdf calls for a lot more turns than that for 160M, but it ain't broke, don't fix it. :) 73, Jim From mikewate at gmail.com Mon Sep 29 22:00:23 2014 From: mikewate at gmail.com (Mike Waters) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 21:00:23 -0500 Subject: Topband: 160 GP Choke In-Reply-To: <5429E0BF.4020108@audiosystemsgroup.com> References: <81c66.13026761.415ae786@aol.com> <5429E0BF.4020108@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: >From p. 33: "With RG-6, RG-8X, and RG-59, use 7 turns through five 2.4" o.d. #31 toroidal cores." Looks like it could stand one more core and one more turn, if I only used it on 160 and 80. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 5:44 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > On Mon,9/29/2014 2:31 PM, Mike Waters wrote: > >> It's 6 turns of F-6 coax through four 2.4" OD Fair-rite #31 cores ($7 each >> from Mouser), per K9YC's PDF. >> > > My pdf calls for a lot more turns than that for 160M, but it ain't broke, > don't fix it. :) > > 73, Jim > From topband at contesting.com Tue Sep 30 00:13:25 2014 From: topband at contesting.com (Dan Maguire via Topband) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 21:13:25 -0700 Subject: Topband: 160 GP Choke Message-ID: <1412050405.10576.YahooMailBasic@web122605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> W0BTU was kind enough to include a link to his inverted-L EZNEC model so I added that to a thread over on eHam which discusses using a "dual-band autopilot" matching network, in this case using the inverted-L on 160 and 80 with no tweaking or switching of the matching network needed: http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,99152.0.html Nothing to do with chokes, just thought it might be of interest. Dan, AC6LA From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Tue Sep 30 03:02:13 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 00:02:13 -0700 Subject: Topband: 160 GP Choke In-Reply-To: References: <81c66.13026761.415ae786@aol.com> <5429E0BF.4020108@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <542A5575.9040907@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Mon,9/29/2014 7:00 PM, Mike Waters wrote: > >From p. 33: "With RG-6, RG-8X, and RG-59, use 7 turns through five 2.4" > o.d. #31 toroidal cores." > > Looks like it could stand one more core and one more turn, if I only used > it on 160 and 80. You must have an old version of it -- the latest is summer 2010, and that sentence is on page 35. Yes, one more core and one more turn. In private email, I recommended one of the bifilar chokes wound on a single core with enameled wire. See measured data on page 34, and recommendations in the "Cookbook." As Tom has noted, with resonant radials, there's not much common mode, so power handling is not a big deal. I suggested 16 turns (x2) of enameled #12 connected as parallel wire line. I'm using #12 THHN on my 120 ft high 80/40 dipoles. The soil here is very poor, so my VNA measurements translated up the line to the antenna yield Z of about 85 ohms at resonance, and that's the approximate Zo of the THHN chokes. The enameled are close to 50 ohms. 73, Jim K9YC From grants2 at pacbell.net Tue Sep 30 09:28:31 2014 From: grants2 at pacbell.net (Grant Saviers) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 06:28:31 -0700 Subject: Topband: [Bulk] Re: 160 GP Choke In-Reply-To: <5429AB56.50902@audiosystemsgroup.com> References: <81c66.13026761.415ae786@aol.com> <5429AB56.50902@audiosystemsgroup.com> Message-ID: <542AAFFF.6030908@pacbell.net> Jim, Would the type 75 material from Fair-Rite, be a better choice for 160 & 80 with 5 turns thru the 0.75" id clamp on? http://www.fair-rite.com/newfair/LowFreqSuppression.html your thoughts? Grant KZ1W On 9/29/2014 11:56 AM, Jim Brown wrote: > On Mon,9/29/2014 10:43 AM, wb6rse1 at mac.com wrote: >> Bill - An effective common-mode choke can be made with 17 turns of >> RG58-coax wound on to an Amidon FT240-31 core. > > It's not an Amidon core, it's a Fair-Rite core. It's a LOT cheaper > when you buy from a Fair-Rite distributor. See Appendix One of > k9yc.com/RFI-Ham.pdf > > 73, Jim K9YC > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Tue Sep 30 12:25:18 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 09:25:18 -0700 Subject: Topband: [Bulk] Re: 160 GP Choke In-Reply-To: <542AAFFF.6030908@pacbell.net> References: <81c66.13026761.415ae786@aol.com> <5429AB56.50902@audiosystemsgroup.com> <542AAFFF.6030908@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <542AD96E.9040801@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Tue,9/30/2014 6:28 AM, Grant Saviers wrote: > Would the type 75 material from Fair-Rite, be a better choice for 160 > & 80 with 5 turns thru the 0.75" id clamp on? It depends entirely on cost of the component. The peak of the impedance of a single core is in the right frequency range, but a single core provides only 125 ohms of choking Z. You would need ten to get 1250 ohms, 40 for 5,000 ohms, my rule of thumb for most transmitting applications. That sounds expensive. :) You could wind turns, but you would still need a lot, and that would move the resonance down to the low end of AM broadcast, where we don't usually need it. 73, Jim K9YC From tshoppa at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 12:36:34 2014 From: tshoppa at gmail.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 12:36:34 -0400 Subject: Topband: [Bulk] Re: 160 GP Choke In-Reply-To: <542AAFFF.6030908@pacbell.net> References: <81c66.13026761.415ae786@aol.com> <5429AB56.50902@audiosystemsgroup.com> <542AAFFF.6030908@pacbell.net> Message-ID: The 0.75" #75 clamp-on is 0475176451 and circa $15. By my connibulations it'll be a really close squeeze to get 5 turns of RG-6 through there. I think 5 turns of RG-58 could happen. The 2.4" #31 core is 2631803802, circa $7 and much easier to get many more turns of RG-8X through it. Tim N3QE On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Grant Saviers wrote: > Jim, > > Would the type 75 material from Fair-Rite, be a better choice for 160 & 80 > with 5 turns thru the 0.75" id clamp on? > > http://www.fair-rite.com/newfair/LowFreqSuppression.html > > your thoughts? > > Grant KZ1W > > > On 9/29/2014 11:56 AM, Jim Brown wrote: > >> On Mon,9/29/2014 10:43 AM, wb6rse1 at mac.com wrote: >> >>> Bill - An effective common-mode choke can be made with 17 turns of >>> RG58-coax wound on to an Amidon FT240-31 core. >>> >> >> It's not an Amidon core, it's a Fair-Rite core. It's a LOT cheaper when >> you buy from a Fair-Rite distributor. See Appendix One of >> k9yc.com/RFI-Ham.pdf >> >> 73, Jim K9YC >> >> _________________ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> >> > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Tue Sep 30 12:44:20 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 09:44:20 -0700 Subject: Topband: 160 GP Choke In-Reply-To: <1962868760.573593.1412073738551.open-xchange@oxbe5.tb.mail.iss.local> References: <81c66.13026761.415ae786@aol.com> <5429E0BF.4020108@audiosystemsgroup.com> <1962868760.573593.1412073738551.open-xchange@oxbe5.tb.mail.iss.local> Message-ID: <542ADDE4.4090705@audiosystemsgroup.com> No. I wrote badly. Measure out two 5 feet lengths of enameled wire. Tape them together (a single wrap of tape every 5 inches or so) and wind that pair of wires 16 turns around a single core. Connect it at each end as a two-wire transmission line. 73, Jim K9YC On Tue,9/30/2014 3:42 AM, Mark van Wijk wrote: > > Using 2x4 pcs FT240-31 it might look something like this: > https://www.flickr.com/photos/pa5mw/7870640836/in/set-72157640001358005 > From jim at audiosystemsgroup.com Tue Sep 30 13:05:11 2014 From: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 10:05:11 -0700 Subject: Topband: [Bulk] Re: 160 GP Choke In-Reply-To: References: <81c66.13026761.415ae786@aol.com> <5429AB56.50902@audiosystemsgroup.com> <542AAFFF.6030908@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <542AE2C7.2000003@audiosystemsgroup.com> On Tue,9/30/2014 9:36 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > The 0.75" #75 clamp-on is 0475176451 and circa $15. By my > connibulations it'll be a really close squeeze to get 5 turns of RG-6 > through there. I think 5 turns of RG-58 could happen. And you would not WANT to wind turns through it -- that would move the resonance down to the AM broadcast band, where you would get something on the order of 500 ohms (and less on 160M). 16 bifilar turns on a #31 core gets you in the range of 5,000 ohms on 160M. 73, Jim K9YC From k2av.guy at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 20:34:16 2014 From: k2av.guy at gmail.com (Guy Olinger K2AV) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 20:34:16 -0400 Subject: Topband: [Bulk] Re: 160 GP Choke In-Reply-To: References: <81c66.13026761.415ae786@aol.com> <5429AB56.50902@audiosystemsgroup.com> <542AAFFF.6030908@pacbell.net> Message-ID: I like to wind these kinds of things using RG400. That's RG58-sized teflon dielectric and teflon jacket with silvered copper double shield and silvered copper fine wire stranded center conductor. RG400 is specifically made to be put in airplane wiring harnesses with all those sharp bends and corners, and never melt or catch fire or have the center conductor migrate through the dielectric. And it will easily handle QRO power with CCS duty cycle. Designed to be reliable after you've spent the good money to bundle and install it in something very expensive, and never ever need replacing. You can solder good PL259 connectors with the correct UG175 adapters, no worry about melting anything. Do the math, get the right number of turns on the right count of the right kind of core and forget it. Damp will not make it go bad, silver oxide is conductive. Make one of them this way and you have a permanent device that you get to keep. You're done. Small lengths of RG400 for this kind of work are inexpensive on eBay, either by ordering a cut length or getting surplus jumpers with misc connectors which I just cut off flush. You can get the winding length needed by winding RG58 on the core(s) for the required turns to make a precision buy of the RG400. Just remember to add what you need for the PL259 and connecting lengths. 73, Guy On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:36 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > The 0.75" #75 clamp-on is 0475176451 and circa $15. By my connibulations > it'll be a really close squeeze to get 5 turns of RG-6 through there. I > think 5 turns of RG-58 could happen. > > The 2.4" #31 core is 2631803802, circa $7 and much easier to get many more > turns of RG-8X through it. > > Tim N3QE > > On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Grant Saviers > wrote: > > > Jim, > > > > Would the type 75 material from Fair-Rite, be a better choice for 160 & > 80 > > with 5 turns thru the 0.75" id clamp on? > > > > http://www.fair-rite.com/newfair/LowFreqSuppression.html > > > > your thoughts? > > > > Grant KZ1W > > > > > > On 9/29/2014 11:56 AM, Jim Brown wrote: > > > >> On Mon,9/29/2014 10:43 AM, wb6rse1 at mac.com wrote: > >> > >>> Bill - An effective common-mode choke can be made with 17 turns of > >>> RG58-coax wound on to an Amidon FT240-31 core. > >>> > >> > >> It's not an Amidon core, it's a Fair-Rite core. It's a LOT cheaper when > >> you buy from a Fair-Rite distributor. See Appendix One of > >> k9yc.com/RFI-Ham.pdf > >> > >> 73, Jim K9YC > >> > >> _________________ > >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > >> > >> > > _________________ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >