From k1fz at myfairpoint.net Wed Feb 1 10:08:52 2017
From: k1fz at myfairpoint.net (K1FZ-Bruce)
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2017 10:08:52 -0500
Subject: Topband: Science tonight
Message-ID: <201702011508.v11F8q4U027124@mail13c26.carrierzone.com>
FYI
From k1fz at myfairpoint.net Wed Feb 1 10:30:51 2017
From: k1fz at myfairpoint.net (k1fz)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 10:30:51 -0500
Subject: Topband: Science tonight
Message-ID: <001801d27ca0$2cbf93d0$2e01a8c0@w1tjq>
FYI
For those who watch PBS television, scheduled are "Super Batteries" followed by "Aurora-fire in the sky".
Check your local TV listings for time and channel.
73
Bruce-K1FZ
From rich_k7zv at gphilltop.com Wed Feb 1 10:42:09 2017
From: rich_k7zv at gphilltop.com (Rich C)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 07:42:09 -0800
Subject: Topband: Science tonight
In-Reply-To: <001801d27ca0$2cbf93d0$2e01a8c0@w1tjq>
References: <001801d27ca0$2cbf93d0$2e01a8c0@w1tjq>
Message-ID:
Thanks Bruce.... set both to record.
Rich K7ZV
On Wed, February 1, 2017 7:30 am, k1fz wrote:
> FYI
> For those who watch PBS television, scheduled are "Super Batteries"
> followed by "Aurora-fire in the sky".
>
> Check your local TV listings for time and channel.
>
>
> 73
> Bruce-K1FZ
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
>
Rich K7ZV
rich_k7zv at gphilltop.com
From rich_k7zv at gphilltop.com Wed Feb 1 10:42:08 2017
From: rich_k7zv at gphilltop.com (Rich C)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 07:42:08 -0800
Subject: Topband: Science tonight
In-Reply-To: <001801d27ca0$2cbf93d0$2e01a8c0@w1tjq>
References: <001801d27ca0$2cbf93d0$2e01a8c0@w1tjq>
Message-ID:
Thanks Bruce.... set both to record.
Rich K7ZV
On Wed, February 1, 2017 7:30 am, k1fz wrote:
> FYI
> For those who watch PBS television, scheduled are "Super Batteries"
> followed by "Aurora-fire in the sky".
>
> Check your local TV listings for time and channel.
>
>
> 73
> Bruce-K1FZ
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
>
Rich K7ZV
rich_k7zv at gphilltop.com
From rgarrett5 at comcast.net Thu Feb 2 05:31:44 2017
From: rgarrett5 at comcast.net (Bob Garrett)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 05:31:44 -0500
Subject: Topband: Thanks
Message-ID: <002501d27d3f$8db6ba20$a9242e60$@comcast.net>
Greetings,
Thanks to everyone who sent me their thoughts and suggestions on my shunt
fed tower and the inverted vees. I'm going to ground the feedlines and
install brute force baluns on the vees. I'll report back to the reflector
on my results.
73, Bob K3UL
From gu4yox at cwgsy.net Thu Feb 2 07:18:39 2017
From: gu4yox at cwgsy.net (GU4YOX)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 12:18:39 -0000
Subject: Topband: 160M NV QSO Sked required
Message-ID: <20170202121619.BCAFFAC8021@mx.contesting.com>
Dear Topbanders,
I need only one more State to complete WAS on 160 Metres and it is Nevada NV
- it's been a long journey. Is there anyone on this list that would like to
try a QSO sked please tomorrow morning. Many thanks in advance,
73 Bob
GU4YOX
From drew at whisperingwoods.org Thu Feb 2 12:12:37 2017
From: drew at whisperingwoods.org (=?utf-8?Q?Drew_Vonada-Smith?=)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 11:12:37 -0600
Subject: Topband: 160 WAS - Kansas
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
All,
?
I have a sked Friday evening (US time) at 0000-0100Z to assist a few with Kansas for WAS. ?I will be on near 1820 kHz and on ON4KST chat. ?Anyone needing KS is welcome to join in. ?I can repeat this as needed for others or if conditions are poor.
?
See you there!
?
73,
Drew K3PA
?
From WB3DYE at aol.com Thu Feb 2 14:15:51 2017
From: WB3DYE at aol.com (WB3DYE at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 14:15:51 -0500
Subject: Topband: AM RALLY
Message-ID: <21ccbc4.7cebc00a.45c4df66@aol.com>
check this out: _www.amrally.com_ (http://www.amrally.com)
73'
Bob Reynolds
WB3DYE
From ve9aa at nbnet.nb.ca Thu Feb 2 16:54:20 2017
From: ve9aa at nbnet.nb.ca (Mike Smith VE9AA)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 17:54:20 -0400
Subject: Topband: 160M NV QSO Sked required
Message-ID: <001f01d27d9e$e8f12bf0$bad383d0$@nbnet.nb.ca>
Bob,
Heard you in the contest.
Anyways, have you tried contacting W7RN? A big station in Nevada. (I am
sure there are others)
IIRC, K6DGW also remotes into it at times.
Either way, should be relatively easy with Tom (K5RC) or one of his crew.
GL
Mike VE9AA
Mike, Coreen & Corey
Keswick Ridge, NB
From VE7SL at shaw.ca Fri Feb 3 19:20:34 2017
From: VE7SL at shaw.ca (Steve)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 16:20:34 -0800
Subject: Topband: 630m Midwinter Operating Event - Sat FEB 4th
In-Reply-To: <70440898293F4C63A81CD7E84910B9E7@StevePC>
References: <000b01d2790d$876ab9e0$2e01a8c0@w1tjq>
<70440898293F4C63A81CD7E84910B9E7@StevePC>
Message-ID: <65E8DE2EEDFE4307B6ACE442D8F395F7@StevePC>
Just a final reminder of tomorrow night's 630m Midwinter Event, including
the 630m-HF crossband activity.
We hope to work you!
Canadian stations will call CQ on announced frequencies within the 630m band
and listen on individual HF (QSX) frequencies for callers.
Due to the RTTY and Sprint activities on the same night, some of the QSX
frequencies have been shifted from those that might normally have been used
in the past.
There will also be a large turnout of U.S. experimental activity, either in
beacon mode or in two-way QSO mode with other experimental service
stations.
In past events, several Transcontinental crossband contacts have been
completed. It is hoped that operating events such as this can serve to
demonstrate the interesting propagation possibilities of this unique part of
the spectrum and generate
more new interest in the 630m band.
To read more about this event, please see the ARRL news announcement here:
http://www.arrl.org/news/second-annual-midwinter-630-meter-activity-night-set-for-february-4-5
This time out, there will be six Canadian stations, from Newfoundland to the
west coast, hoping to work as many of you as possible!
Station: CF7MM (Mark) CN89 Coquitlam, British Columbia
Time: February 5, 0200-0700 UTC
Transmit frequency: 475.0 kHz
Receive (QSX) frequency: 1801 kHz, 3501 kHz, 3528, and 7028 kHz
Station: VE7BDQ (John) CN89 Delta, British Columbia
Time: February 5, 0300-0700 UTC
Transmit frequency: 474.0 kHz
Receive (QSX) frequency: 1833 kHz, 3533 kHz
Station: CG7CNF (Toby) CN89 Burnaby, British Columbia
Time: February 5, 0200-0800 UTC
Transmit frequency: 476.5 kHz
Receive (QSX) frequency: 1827 kHz, 3527 kHz, 7027 kHz
Station: VE7SL (Steve) CN88 Mayne Island, British Columbia
Time: February 5, 0200-0700 UTC
Transmit frequency: 473.0 kHz
Receive (QSX) frequency: 3526 kHz, 7115 kHz
Station: VO1NA (Joe) GN37 Torbay, Newfoundland
Time: February 4, 2130 UTC, until February 5, 0130 UTC; After 0130 UTC, 5WPM
CW beacon until 1000 UTC
Transmit frequency: 477.7 kHz
Receive (QSX) frequency: 3525.5 kHz
Station: VE3OT (Mitch) EN92 London, Ontario
Time: February 5, 0000-0500 UTC
Transmit frequency: 477.0 kHz
Receive (QSX) frequency: 3610 kHz, 7105 kHz
Steve, VE7SL 73
New site location:
WEB - "The VE7SL Radio Notebook": http://qsl.net/ve7sl/
VE7SL BLOG - "Homebrewing and Operating Adventures From 2200m to Nanowaves":
http://ve7sl.blogspot.ca/
From awswinger at earthlink.net Fri Feb 3 20:32:49 2017
From: awswinger at earthlink.net (Alan Swinger)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 20:32:49 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Topband: 630m Midwinter Operating Event - Sat FEB 4th
Message-ID: <6150391.17582.1486171969601@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Steve and all - FYI, I have a very nice RBL-4 receiver For Sale that may be of interest. Listed on E-Ham and QTH.com, with AD as follows - call if interested:
FOR SALE: WELLS GARDNER RBL-4 Low Frequency Navy Receiver
RBL-4 (Ser # 394) Frequency coverage is 15 ? 600 kHz. Has built-in 115VAC power supply and rugged case complete with shock mounts. This radio is perfect for those interested in the New Proposed 630 Meter Band (472-479 kHz) and the Secondary allocation at 135.7-137.8 kHz!! Radio tested w/ Sig Gen and short antenna and hears well ? headphones or 600 ohm speaker. Cabinet appearance is excellent. Original Manual included. The radio weighs in at ~ 77 lbs, so FED EX packing & shipping is expected to be ~ $125. Price: $265 plus shipping. Accept PayPal, but add 3% of price to cover fee. Located in Charlottesville, VA. Photos available on request. Call 434-975-6237; Alan K9MBQ
-----Original Message-----
>From: Steve
>Sent: Feb 3, 2017 7:20 PM
>To: topband
>Subject: Topband: 630m Midwinter Operating Event - Sat FEB 4th
>
>Just a final reminder of tomorrow night's 630m Midwinter Event, including
>the 630m-HF crossband activity.
>
>We hope to work you!
>
>Canadian stations will call CQ on announced frequencies within the 630m band
>and listen on individual HF (QSX) frequencies for callers.
>
>Due to the RTTY and Sprint activities on the same night, some of the QSX
>frequencies have been shifted from those that might normally have been used
>in the past.
>
>There will also be a large turnout of U.S. experimental activity, either in
>beacon mode or in two-way QSO mode with other experimental service
>stations.
>
>In past events, several Transcontinental crossband contacts have been
>completed. It is hoped that operating events such as this can serve to
>demonstrate the interesting propagation possibilities of this unique part of
>the spectrum and generate
>more new interest in the 630m band.
>
>To read more about this event, please see the ARRL news announcement here:
>
>http://www.arrl.org/news/second-annual-midwinter-630-meter-activity-night-set-for-february-4-5
>
>
>This time out, there will be six Canadian stations, from Newfoundland to the
>west coast, hoping to work as many of you as possible!
>
>
>Station: CF7MM (Mark) CN89 Coquitlam, British Columbia
>Time: February 5, 0200-0700 UTC
>Transmit frequency: 475.0 kHz
>Receive (QSX) frequency: 1801 kHz, 3501 kHz, 3528, and 7028 kHz
>
>Station: VE7BDQ (John) CN89 Delta, British Columbia
>Time: February 5, 0300-0700 UTC
>Transmit frequency: 474.0 kHz
>Receive (QSX) frequency: 1833 kHz, 3533 kHz
>
>Station: CG7CNF (Toby) CN89 Burnaby, British Columbia
>Time: February 5, 0200-0800 UTC
>Transmit frequency: 476.5 kHz
>Receive (QSX) frequency: 1827 kHz, 3527 kHz, 7027 kHz
>
>Station: VE7SL (Steve) CN88 Mayne Island, British Columbia
>Time: February 5, 0200-0700 UTC
>Transmit frequency: 473.0 kHz
>Receive (QSX) frequency: 3526 kHz, 7115 kHz
>
>Station: VO1NA (Joe) GN37 Torbay, Newfoundland
>Time: February 4, 2130 UTC, until February 5, 0130 UTC; After 0130 UTC, 5WPM
>CW beacon until 1000 UTC
>Transmit frequency: 477.7 kHz
>Receive (QSX) frequency: 3525.5 kHz
>
>Station: VE3OT (Mitch) EN92 London, Ontario
>Time: February 5, 0000-0500 UTC
>Transmit frequency: 477.0 kHz
>Receive (QSX) frequency: 3610 kHz, 7105 kHz
>
>
>
>Steve, VE7SL 73
>
>
>
>
>
>New site location:
>
>WEB - "The VE7SL Radio Notebook": http://qsl.net/ve7sl/
>
>VE7SL BLOG - "Homebrewing and Operating Adventures From 2200m to Nanowaves":
>http://ve7sl.blogspot.ca/
>
>_________________
>Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
From mkve7ca at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 23:32:01 2017
From: mkve7ca at gmail.com (Markus Hansen)
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 10:02:01 +0530
Subject: Topband: 630m Midwinter Operating Event - Sat FEB 4th
In-Reply-To: <65E8DE2EEDFE4307B6ACE442D8F395F7@StevePC>
References: <000b01d2790d$876ab9e0$2e01a8c0@w1tjq>
<70440898293F4C63A81CD7E84910B9E7@StevePC>
<65E8DE2EEDFE4307B6ACE442D8F395F7@StevePC>
Message-ID: <01DE72E2-6194-42BF-B1EB-55670EA71B87@gmail.com>
Really sorry to miss the cross band event. Two more days in India and then we fly home. Have a good weekend everyone. 73 Markus VE7CA/VU2.
Sent from my iPhone
> On 04-Feb-2017, at 5:50 AM, Steve wrote:
>
> Just a final reminder of tomorrow night's 630m Midwinter Event, including the 630m-HF crossband activity.
>
> We hope to work you!
>
> Canadian stations will call CQ on announced frequencies within the 630m band
> and listen on individual HF (QSX) frequencies for callers.
>
> Due to the RTTY and Sprint activities on the same night, some of the QSX
> frequencies have been shifted from those that might normally have been used
> in the past.
>
> There will also be a large turnout of U.S. experimental activity, either in
> beacon mode or in two-way QSO mode with other experimental service
> stations.
>
> In past events, several Transcontinental crossband contacts have been
> completed. It is hoped that operating events such as this can serve to
> demonstrate the interesting propagation possibilities of this unique part of the spectrum and generate
> more new interest in the 630m band.
>
> To read more about this event, please see the ARRL news announcement here:
>
> http://www.arrl.org/news/second-annual-midwinter-630-meter-activity-night-set-for-february-4-5
>
>
> This time out, there will be six Canadian stations, from Newfoundland to the
> west coast, hoping to work as many of you as possible!
>
>
> Station: CF7MM (Mark) CN89 Coquitlam, British Columbia
> Time: February 5, 0200-0700 UTC
> Transmit frequency: 475.0 kHz
> Receive (QSX) frequency: 1801 kHz, 3501 kHz, 3528, and 7028 kHz
>
> Station: VE7BDQ (John) CN89 Delta, British Columbia
> Time: February 5, 0300-0700 UTC
> Transmit frequency: 474.0 kHz
> Receive (QSX) frequency: 1833 kHz, 3533 kHz
>
> Station: CG7CNF (Toby) CN89 Burnaby, British Columbia
> Time: February 5, 0200-0800 UTC
> Transmit frequency: 476.5 kHz
> Receive (QSX) frequency: 1827 kHz, 3527 kHz, 7027 kHz
>
> Station: VE7SL (Steve) CN88 Mayne Island, British Columbia
> Time: February 5, 0200-0700 UTC
> Transmit frequency: 473.0 kHz
> Receive (QSX) frequency: 3526 kHz, 7115 kHz
>
> Station: VO1NA (Joe) GN37 Torbay, Newfoundland
> Time: February 4, 2130 UTC, until February 5, 0130 UTC; After 0130 UTC, 5WPM
> CW beacon until 1000 UTC
> Transmit frequency: 477.7 kHz
> Receive (QSX) frequency: 3525.5 kHz
>
> Station: VE3OT (Mitch) EN92 London, Ontario
> Time: February 5, 0000-0500 UTC
> Transmit frequency: 477.0 kHz
> Receive (QSX) frequency: 3610 kHz, 7105 kHz
>
>
>
> Steve, VE7SL 73
>
>
>
>
>
> New site location:
>
> WEB - "The VE7SL Radio Notebook": http://qsl.net/ve7sl/
>
> VE7SL BLOG - "Homebrewing and Operating Adventures From 2200m to Nanowaves": http://ve7sl.blogspot.ca/
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
From on7eh at skynet.be Sun Feb 5 04:32:30 2017
From: on7eh at skynet.be (on7eh)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 10:32:30 +0100
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
Message-ID: <001D3E33D8E2484DA0519AB3500BB7E3@SpelierPC>
For the first time,
I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S and NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height, sloping down to 11m.
Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what else does hearing echoes indicate?
73,
Michel, ON7EH
From art at nk8x.net Sun Feb 5 09:38:32 2017
From: art at nk8x.net (Art Snapper)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 09:38:32 -0500
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To: <001D3E33D8E2484DA0519AB3500BB7E3@SpelierPC>
References: <001D3E33D8E2484DA0519AB3500BB7E3@SpelierPC>
Message-ID:
I noticed a few weak echoes this morning around 0400. I thought it was
someone playing around.
Art
NK8X
?
On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 4:32 AM, on7eh wrote:
> For the first time,
> I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
> They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
> I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
>
> The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S and
> NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
> The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height,
> sloping down to 11m.
>
> Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what
> else does hearing echoes indicate?
>
>
> 73,
> Michel, ON7EH
>
>
>
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
From radio75a3 at msn.com Sun Feb 5 09:45:26 2017
From: radio75a3 at msn.com (Arthur Delibert)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 14:45:26 +0000
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To: <001D3E33D8E2484DA0519AB3500BB7E3@SpelierPC>
References: <001D3E33D8E2484DA0519AB3500BB7E3@SpelierPC>
Message-ID:
Approximately how much delay was there between your transmission and the echo?
--Art Delibert, KB3FJO
________________________________
From: Topband on behalf of on7eh
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 4:32 AM
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
For the first time,
I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S and NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height, sloping down to 11m.
Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what else does hearing echoes indicate?
73,
Michel, ON7EH
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home
www.contesting.com
Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display: ...
From k1fz at myfairpoint.net Sun Feb 5 11:22:12 2017
From: k1fz at myfairpoint.net (k1fz)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 11:22:12 -0500
Subject: Topband: K1FZ observations
Message-ID: <000801d27fcc$02db5430$2e01a8c0@w1tjq>
2 February 2017
I like to watch channel 13 TV (UHF range) about 100 miles distant in Portland Maine. On the converter signal meter it usually is 15 to 18 units. It is good watching with some signal loss blips typically spaced several minutes.
But on 2 February in the afternoon noticed that channel 13 was solid, no drop outs. Brought up the signal meter, and the readings were up in the 40s touching 50.
Later near my sunset (2145- 2159 UTC) copied VK6LW working Europeans in the contest. The next morning JAs were working East Coast North Americans with good signals.
Watched ABC World News later, and they had a video of a beautiful Aurora taken by a traveler on an airliner.
Opinion: For a UHF TV station signal to be reflected as it was, the atmosphere must have been ionized at a relatively low elevation.
Probably Aurora is not the only ionization source possible, but it is well watching to find 160 meter openings.
Recent reports of echoes, yes I believe them.
73
Bruce-K1FZ
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna,html
From tree at kkn.net Sun Feb 5 12:18:47 2017
From: tree at kkn.net (Tree)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 09:18:47 -0800
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To:
References: <001D3E33D8E2484DA0519AB3500BB7E3@SpelierPC>
Message-ID:
I once had a very strong echo on 160.
The delay was about 225 milliseconds - which equates to a distance of about
42K miles.
You can listen to it here. It is so strong that you won't believe that is
really the echo. I send two dits and hear two dits come back.
http://www.kkn.net/n6tr/sounds/echo.wav
It appears this was from 1997 - I posted about it here:
http://lists.contesting.com/archives//html/Topband/1997-02/msg00136.html
I remember hearing similar echos on my 75 meter signal during a California
QSO Party when I was operating at K6NA's QTH back in 1987 or 1988.
Tree N6TR
On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Arthur Delibert wrote:
> Approximately how much delay was there between your transmission and the
> echo?
>
>
> --Art Delibert, KB3FJO
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Topband on behalf of on7eh <
> on7eh at skynet.be>
> Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 4:32 AM
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
>
> For the first time,
> I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
> They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
> I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
>
> The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S and
> NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
> The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height,
> sloping down to 11m.
>
> Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what
> else does hearing echoes indicate?
>
>
> 73,
> Michel, ON7EH
>
>
>
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home com/_topband>
> www.contesting.com
> Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display: ...
>
>
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
From k1fz at myfairpoint.net Sun Feb 5 12:52:58 2017
From: k1fz at myfairpoint.net (k1fz)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 12:52:58 -0500
Subject: Topband: Fw: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
Message-ID: <001201d27fd8$b0e38550$2e01a8c0@w1tjq>
Great info Tree,
The earth is ~24,000 miles around at the equator, less toward the poles.
(Reason we have 24 hours in a day)
Your timing would indicate that your echo was heard the second time around.
73
Bruce-k1fz
From mikewate at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 14:08:11 2017
From: mikewate at gmail.com (Mike Waters)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 13:08:11 -0600
Subject: Topband: K1FZ observations
In-Reply-To: <000801d27fcc$02db5430$2e01a8c0@w1tjq>
References: <000801d27fcc$02db5430$2e01a8c0@w1tjq>
Message-ID:
Hi Bruce,
I think what you experienced on channel 13 was a coincidence.
Tropospheric VHF and UHF band openings have nothing to do with any kind of
enhanced 160m conditions. Tropospheric bending occurs when a cold air mass
happens to be beneath much warmer air aloft. The reflection occurs where
the two layers meet because of the difference in energy levels.
And this bending is seldom very widespread, that is, not more than a ~1000
mile diameter area. (And then we have rare occurrences of multi-layer
tropospheric ducting and even E-skip, but that's another story.)
But hey, this is 160 meters, so who really knows for sure? :-)
73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 10:22 AM, k1fz wrote:
>
> 2 February 2017
>
> I like to watch channel 13 TV (UHF range) about 100 miles distant in
> Portland Maine. On the converter signal meter it usually is 15 to 18 units.
> It is good watching with some signal loss blips typically spaced several
> minutes.
>
> But on 2 February in the afternoon noticed that channel 13 was solid, no
> drop outs. Brought up the signal meter, and the readings were up in the 40s
> touching 50.
>
> Later near my sunset (2145- 2159 UTC) copied VK6LW working Europeans in
> the contest. The next morning JAs were working East Coast North Americans
> with good signals.
>
> Watched ABC World News later, and they had a video of a beautiful Aurora
> taken by a traveler on an airliner.
>
> Opinion: For a UHF TV station signal to be reflected as it was, the
> atmosphere must have been ionized at a relatively low elevation.
>
> Probably Aurora is not the only ionization source possible, but it is well
> watching to find 160 meter openings.
>
> Recent reports of echoes, yes I believe them.
>
>
From art at nk8x.net Sun Feb 5 14:13:56 2017
From: art at nk8x.net (Art Snapper)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 14:13:56 -0500
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To:
References: <001D3E33D8E2484DA0519AB3500BB7E3@SpelierPC>
Message-ID:
I am wondering if there is a backscatter type condition that can also slow
down the Vp.
Art NK8X
?
On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 12:18 PM, Tree wrote:
> I once had a very strong echo on 160.
>
> The delay was about 225 milliseconds - which equates to a distance of about
> 42K miles.
>
> You can listen to it here. It is so strong that you won't believe that is
> really the echo. I send two dits and hear two dits come back.
>
> http://www.kkn.net/n6tr/sounds/echo.wav
>
> It appears this was from 1997 - I posted about it here:
>
> http://lists.contesting.com/archives//html/Topband/1997-02/msg00136.html
>
> I remember hearing similar echos on my 75 meter signal during a California
> QSO Party when I was operating at K6NA's QTH back in 1987 or 1988.
>
> Tree N6TR
>
> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Arthur Delibert wrote:
>
> > Approximately how much delay was there between your transmission and the
> > echo?
> >
> >
> > --Art Delibert, KB3FJO
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Topband on behalf of on7eh <
> > on7eh at skynet.be>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 4:32 AM
> > To: topband at contesting.com
> > Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
> >
> > For the first time,
> > I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
> > They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
> > I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
> >
> > The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S
> and
> > NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
> > The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height,
> > sloping down to 11m.
> >
> > Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what
> > else does hearing echoes indicate?
> >
> >
> > 73,
> > Michel, ON7EH
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________
> > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> > Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home > com/_topband>
> > www.contesting.com
> > Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display:
> ...
> >
> >
> > _________________
> > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> >
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
From k1fz at myfairpoint.net Sun Feb 5 14:23:02 2017
From: k1fz at myfairpoint.net (K1FZ-Bruce)
Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2017 14:23:02 -0500
Subject: Topband: K1FZ observations
Message-ID: <201702051923.v15JN2ts005217@mail40c26.carrierzone.com>
Hi Mike ,
Have seen tropospheric bending may times over the years. This was different.
Worked 2 meters for years in the 1960's
Need to keep an open mind.
?73
Bruce
On Sun, 5 Feb 2017 13:08:11 -0600, Mike Waters wrote:
Hi Bruce,
I think what you experienced on channel 13 was a coincidence.
Tropospheric VHF and UHF band openings have nothing to do with any kind of
enhanced 160m conditions. Tropospheric bending occurs when a cold air mass
happens to be beneath much warmer air aloft. The reflection occurs where
the two layers meet because of the difference in energy levels.
From k1fz at myfairpoint.net Sun Feb 5 14:27:46 2017
From: k1fz at myfairpoint.net (K1FZ-Bruce)
Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2017 14:27:46 -0500
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To:
References: <001D3E33D8E2484DA0519AB3500BB7E3@SpelierPC>
<000701d27fd8$6d1434f0$2e01a8c0@w1tjq>
Message-ID: <201702051927.v15JRlbQ009396@mail40c26.carrierzone.com>
Your transceiver switching may not have been fast enough to catch the echo the first time around.
On Sun, 5 Feb 2017 11:21:51 -0800, Tree wrote:
Yup - pretty crazy. Or space aliens were messing with me.
The earth is ~24,000 miles around at the equator, less toward the poles. (Reason we have 24 hours in a day)
Your timing would indicate that your echo was heard the second time around.
73
Bruce-k1fz
-
From herbert.schoenbohm at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 14:33:27 2017
From: herbert.schoenbohm at gmail.com (Herbert Schoenbohm)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 15:33:27 -0400
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To:
References: <001D3E33D8E2484DA0519AB3500BB7E3@SpelierPC>
Message-ID: <57939f76-8be2-441c-607b-9511b1f29520@gmail.com>
Having worked LU and CX on 2 meters SSB (100 watts 7 element beam)
without any ionospheric skip in the strange ducting FAI mode that is at
time formed by the magnetic field at the equator, i say that anything is
possible. But the idea of a multiple moderate angle skip with so many
hops around the world and twice is IMHO really all that probable.
On 2/5/2017 3:13 PM, Art Snapper wrote:
> I am wondering if there is a backscatter type condition that can also slow
> down the Vp.
>
> Art NK8X
> ?
>
> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 12:18 PM, Tree wrote:
>
>> I once had a very strong echo on 160.
>>
>> The delay was about 225 milliseconds - which equates to a distance of about
>> 42K miles.
>>
>> You can listen to it here. It is so strong that you won't believe that is
>> really the echo. I send two dits and hear two dits come back.
>>
>> http://www.kkn.net/n6tr/sounds/echo.wav
>>
>> It appears this was from 1997 - I posted about it here:
>>
>> http://lists.contesting.com/archives//html/Topband/1997-02/msg00136.html
>>
>> I remember hearing similar echos on my 75 meter signal during a California
>> QSO Party when I was operating at K6NA's QTH back in 1987 or 1988.
>>
>> Tree N6TR
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Arthur Delibert wrote:
>>
>>> Approximately how much delay was there between your transmission and the
>>> echo?
>>>
>>>
>>> --Art Delibert, KB3FJO
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Topband on behalf of on7eh <
>>> on7eh at skynet.be>
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 4:32 AM
>>> To: topband at contesting.com
>>> Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
>>>
>>> For the first time,
>>> I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
>>> They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
>>> I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
>>>
>>> The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S
>> and
>>> NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
>>> The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height,
>>> sloping down to 11m.
>>>
>>> Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what
>>> else does hearing echoes indicate?
>>>
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Michel, ON7EH
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _________________
>>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>> Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home>> com/_topband>
>>> www.contesting.com
>>> Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display:
>> ...
>>>
>>> _________________
>>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>>
>> _________________
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
From herbert.schoenbohm at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 15:05:12 2017
From: herbert.schoenbohm at gmail.com (Herbert Schoenbohm)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 16:05:12 -0400
Subject: Topband: Fwd: Re: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <88635cd1-3a50-a212-7a82-ef12d036e1f2@gmail.com>
Meant to say "all that improbable"...."But the idea of a multiple
moderate angle skip with so many hops around the world and twice is IMHO
really all that/*improbable*/."
On 2/5/2017 3:33 PM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote:
> Having worked LU and CX on 2 meters SSB (100 watts 7 element beam)
> without any ionospheric skip in the strange ducting FAI mode that is
> at time formed by the magnetic field at the equator, i say that
> anything is possible. But the idea of a multiple moderate angle skip
> with so many hops around the world and twice is IMHO really all that
> probable.
>
> On 2/5/2017 3:13 PM, Art Snapper wrote:
>> I am wondering if there is a backscatter type condition that can also
>> slow
>> down the Vp.
>>
>> Art NK8X
>> ?
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 12:18 PM, Tree wrote:
>>
>>> I once had a very strong echo on 160.
>>>
>>> The delay was about 225 milliseconds - which equates to a distance
>>> of about
>>> 42K miles.
>>>
>>> You can listen to it here. It is so strong that you won't believe
>>> that is
>>> really the echo. I send two dits and hear two dits come back.
>>>
>>> http://www.kkn.net/n6tr/sounds/echo.wav
>>>
>>> It appears this was from 1997 - I posted about it here:
>>>
>>> http://lists.contesting.com/archives//html/Topband/1997-02/msg00136.html
>>>
>>>
>>> I remember hearing similar echos on my 75 meter signal during a
>>> California
>>> QSO Party when I was operating at K6NA's QTH back in 1987 or 1988.
>>>
>>> Tree N6TR
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Arthur Delibert
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Approximately how much delay was there between your transmission
>>>> and the
>>>> echo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --Art Delibert, KB3FJO
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Topband on behalf of on7eh <
>>>> on7eh at skynet.be>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 4:32 AM
>>>> To: topband at contesting.com
>>>> Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
>>>>
>>>> For the first time,
>>>> I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05
>>>> UTC.
>>>> They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
>>>> I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
>>>>
>>>> The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S
>>> and
>>>> NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
>>>> The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height,
>>>> sloping down to 11m.
>>>>
>>>> Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I
>>>> wonder what
>>>> else does hearing echoes indicate?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Michel, ON7EH
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _________________
>>>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>>> Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home>>> com/_topband>
>>>> www.contesting.com
>>>> Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display:
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> _________________
>>>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>>>
>>> _________________
>>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>>
>> _________________
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
From on7eh at skynet.be Sun Feb 5 15:46:39 2017
From: on7eh at skynet.be (on7eh)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 21:46:39 +0100
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To:
References: <001D3E33D8E2484DA0519AB3500BB7E3@SpelierPC>
Message-ID: <3FF331481DA04AABA1DB39FDE29B92A6@SpelierPC>
Art and all,
unfortunately, I do not have a PC in the shack outside contest days,
otherwise an answer could easily be provided.
For sure, its presence was annoying, not hearing the expected noise in
between the dit and dah's at 20wpm...
BTW: I ruled out the TRX given the infrequent echoes and the noted
difference in signal strength on the Beverages...
Michel, ON7EH
-----Original Message-----
From: Arthur Delibert
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 3:45 PM
To: on7eh ; topband at contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
Approximately how much delay was there between your transmission and the
echo?
--Art Delibert, KB3FJO
________________________________
From: Topband on behalf of on7eh
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 4:32 AM
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
For the first time,
I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S and
NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height, sloping
down to 11m.
Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what
else does hearing echoes indicate?
73,
Michel, ON7EH
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband Archives - Contesting Online
Home
www.contesting.com
Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display: ...
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
From tshoppa at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 16:44:19 2017
From: tshoppa at gmail.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 16:44:19 -0500
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To: <001D3E33D8E2484DA0519AB3500BB7E3@SpelierPC>
References: <001D3E33D8E2484DA0519AB3500BB7E3@SpelierPC>
Message-ID:
I have heard echoes of my own signal under some circumstances too. More
often on 80M but a couple times on 160M. Often in the hour before dawn.
These echoes were also heard on other stations within a few hundred miles,
especially ones to my north.
For the 160M echoes, some stations in W1 were nearly uncopyable on my
receive antenna (K9AY) because of the echo. The echo was very similar to a
dit length and very similar in strength.
Interestingly enough, if I went to listen on my transmit antenna
(Vertical), the echo completely went away.
Tim N3QE
On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 4:32 AM, on7eh wrote:
> For the first time,
> I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
> They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
> I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
>
> The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S and
> NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
> The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height,
> sloping down to 11m.
>
> Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what
> else does hearing echoes indicate?
>
>
> 73,
> Michel, ON7EH
>
>
>
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
From radio75a3 at msn.com Sun Feb 5 17:54:09 2017
From: radio75a3 at msn.com (Arthur Delibert)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 22:54:09 +0000
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To: <3FF331481DA04AABA1DB39FDE29B92A6@SpelierPC>
References: <001D3E33D8E2484DA0519AB3500BB7E3@SpelierPC>
,
<3FF331481DA04AABA1DB39FDE29B92A6@SpelierPC>
Message-ID:
Thanks. Sounds from your description that the interval was very short, so it was not what has been called a "long-delayed" echo.
________________________________
From: on7eh
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 3:46 PM
To: Arthur Delibert; topband at contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
Art and all,
unfortunately, I do not have a PC in the shack outside contest days,
otherwise an answer could easily be provided.
For sure, its presence was annoying, not hearing the expected noise in
between the dit and dah's at 20wpm...
BTW: I ruled out the TRX given the infrequent echoes and the noted
difference in signal strength on the Beverages...
Michel, ON7EH
-----Original Message-----
From: Arthur Delibert
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 3:45 PM
To: on7eh ; topband at contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
Approximately how much delay was there between your transmission and the
echo?
--Art Delibert, KB3FJO
________________________________
From: Topband on behalf of on7eh
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 4:32 AM
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
For the first time,
I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S and
NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height, sloping
down to 11m.
Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder what
else does hearing echoes indicate?
73,
Michel, ON7EH
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home
www.contesting.com
Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display: ...
Topband Archives - Contesting Online
Home
Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home
www.contesting.com
Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display: ...
www.contesting.com
Contesting Online Home
www.contesting.com
Contesting Online - Amateur (ham) radio contesting community web site featuring news, articles, forums, links, and surveys
Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display: ...
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home
www.contesting.com
Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display: ...
From g4piq at btinternet.com Mon Feb 6 07:20:07 2017
From: g4piq at btinternet.com (Andy Cook)
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 12:20:07 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Topband: Fwd: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To: <16695502.18400.1486381846846.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
References: <16695502.18400.1486381846846.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
Message-ID: <6625830.21078.1486383607980.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
I think you'll find this was Magnetospheric Ducting. Take a look at some of the articles here http://la3za.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Unusual%20Propagation and here http://folk.uio.no/sverre/papers/2009_MagnetoDucting-QST-LA3ZA.pdf.
Delay depends on your latitude - but couple of hundred millseconds is about right and this is a peak time of year for the effect.
I've heard this quite frequently on 80m around mid local-evening during the winter, and one occasion - on 3rd Feb last year - very strongly indeed. That night I was able to hear my echoes with just 25mW into a dipole on 80m - but it's often strong enough to be audible with a few watts. I've read papers which suggested it does also occur on 160m.
Reports of these being less strong / gone when you switch to a vertical look plausible as well since they apear to require vertical incidence from the ionosphere.
73,
Andy, G4PIQ
From k1fz at myfairpoint.net Mon Feb 6 08:46:02 2017
From: k1fz at myfairpoint.net (K1FZ-Bruce)
Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2017 08:46:02 -0500
Subject: Topband: Fwd: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To: <6625830.21078.1486383607980.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
References: <16695502.18400.1486381846846.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
<6625830.21078.1486383607980.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
Message-ID: <201702061346.v16Dk2mB022878@mail43c26.carrierzone.com>
Hi Andy,
Ducting takes place over a relatively small area. Depends upon cloud layers and temperature zones
This event took place ~ world wide. Band openings between North America to Asia, and Australia.
73
Bruce-k1fz
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
?On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 12:20:07 +0000 (GMT), Andy Cook wrote:
I think you'll find this was Magnetospheric Ducting. Take a look at some of the articles here http://la3za.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Unusual%20Propagation and here http://folk.uio.no/sverre/papers/2009_MagnetoDucting-QST-LA3ZA.pdf.
Delay depends on your latitude - but couple of hundred millseconds is about right and this is a peak time of year for the effect.
I've heard this quite frequently on 80m around mid local-evening during the winter, and one occasion - on 3rd Feb last year - very strongly indeed. That night I was able to hear my echoes with just 25mW into a dipole on 80m - but it's often strong enough to be audible with a few watts. I've read papers which suggested it does also occur on 160m.
Reports of these being less strong / gone when you switch to a vertical look plausible as well since they apear to require vertical incidence from the ionosphere.
73,
Andy, G4PIQ
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
From g4piq at btinternet.com Mon Feb 6 09:42:58 2017
From: g4piq at btinternet.com (Andy Cook)
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 14:42:58 +0000
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To: <201702061346.v16Dk2mB022878@mail43c26.carrierzone.com>
References: <16695502.18400.1486381846846.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
<6625830.21078.1486383607980.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
<201702061346.v16Dk2mB022878@mail43c26.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <58482E59056642C4@rgout05.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by
postmaster@btinternet.com)
I think this form of ducting takes place way above the layers of the atmosphere where weather happens. In my experience the magnetospheric ducting is normally localized in impact. If this was really happening in multiple places around the world at the same time on this occasion then I think that is unusual.
Andy, G4PIQ
-----Original Message-----
From: "K1FZ-Bruce"
Sent: ?06/?02/?2017 13:46
To: "g4piq at btinternet.com" ; "Topband"
Subject: Fwd: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
Hi Andy,
Ducting takes place over a relatively small area. Depends upon cloud layers and temperature zones
This event took place ~ world wide. Band openings between North America to Asia, and Australia.
73
Bruce-k1fz
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
?On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 12:20:07 +0000 (GMT), Andy Cook wrote:
I think you'll find this was Magnetospheric Ducting. Take a look at some of the articles here http://la3za.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Unusual%20Propagation and here http://folk.uio.no/sverre/papers/2009_MagnetoDucting-QST-LA3ZA.pdf.
Delay depends on your latitude - but couple of hundred millseconds is about right and this is a peak time of year for the effect.
I've heard this quite frequently on 80m around mid local-evening during the winter, and one occasion - on 3rd Feb last year - very strongly indeed. That night I was able to hear my echoes with just 25mW into a dipole on 80m - but it's often strong enough to be audible with a few watts. I've read papers which suggested it does also occur on 160m.
Reports of these being less strong / gone when you switch to a vertical look plausible as well since they apear to require vertical incidence from the ionosphere.
73,
Andy, G4PIQ
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
From k1fz at myfairpoint.net Mon Feb 6 09:54:34 2017
From: k1fz at myfairpoint.net (K1FZ-Bruce)
Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2017 09:54:34 -0500
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To: <58482E59056642C4@rgout05.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by
postmaster@btinternet.com)
References: <16695502.18400.1486381846846.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
<6625830.21078.1486383607980.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
<201702061346.v16Dk2mB022878@mail43c26.carrierzone.com>
<58482E59056642C4@rgout05.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by
postmaster@btinternet.com)
Message-ID: <201702061454.v16EsYf1002973@mail13c26.carrierzone.com>
Andy,
There was a passenger on an airliner that took photographs of a very large Aurora at that time. . One of the photographs was shown on TV - ABC World News.
It is likely that the Aurora sparked all these events.
I have noticed that there appears to be a link between the start of an aurora and long path 160 meter openings.
73, DX,
Bruce-K1FZ
?On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 14:42:58 +0000, Andy Cook wrote:
I think this form of ducting takes place way above the layers of the atmosphere where weather happens. In my experience the magnetospheric ducting is normally localized in impact. If this was really happening in multiple places around the world at the same time on this occasion then I think that is unusual.
Andy, G4PIQ
-----Original Message-----
From: "K1FZ-Bruce"
Sent: ?06/?02/?2017 13:46
To: "g4piq at btinternet.com" ; "Topband"
Subject: Fwd: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
Hi Andy,
Ducting takes place over a relatively small area. Depends upon cloud layers and temperature zones
This event took place ~ world wide. Band openings between North America to Asia, and Australia.
73
Bruce-k1fz
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
?On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 12:20:07 +0000 (GMT), Andy Cook wrote:
I think you'll find this was Magnetospheric Ducting. Take a look at some of the articles here http://la3za.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Unusual%20Propagation and here http://folk.uio.no/sverre/papers/2009_MagnetoDucting-QST-LA3ZA.pdf.
Delay depends on your latitude - but couple of hundred millseconds is about right and this is a peak time of year for the effect.
I've heard this quite frequently on 80m around mid local-evening during the winter, and one occasion - on 3rd Feb last year - very strongly indeed. That night I was able to hear my echoes with just 25mW into a dipole on 80m - but it's often strong enough to be audible with a few watts. I've read papers which suggested it does also occur on 160m.
Reports of these being less strong / gone when you switch to a vertical look plausible as well since they apear to require vertical incidence from the ionosphere.
73,
Andy, G4PIQ
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
From carlluetzelschwab at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 10:25:48 2017
From: carlluetzelschwab at gmail.com (Carl Luetzelschwab)
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 10:25:48 -0500
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m
Message-ID:
Bruce K1FZ said: "I have noticed that there appears to be a link between
the start of an aurora and long path 160 meter openings."
Others have noted this interesting effect. The only physical tie between
the two that I'm aware of is that a spike in the K index can initially
improve the electron density valley that is above the E region peak in the
nighttime ionosphere, resulting in a better chance of ducting. This comes
from a paper by Zhang and Kamide in JGR in 2004 (they just reported their
results, but didn't tie it to amateur radio propagation - heck, they might
not even be aware of amateur radio!).
I'm not saying this is exactly what happens, just that it *may* explain the
link between the start of an aurora and long path 160 meter openings.
As for the echoes that started this thread and aurora, one respondent
wondered about the velocity of propagation of the RF slowing down due to a
back scatter mechanism. Ionosondes report virtual height (not true height)
because they assume the speed of light for the vertical incident RF. But as
the RF goes up in the ionosphere, the group velocity decreases as the index
of refraction approaches zero. If these echoes are of Earthly origin, then
the appropriate plasma frequency could decrease the group velocity and
contribute to the echo mechanism. Just speculation.
Having said all this, right now I think Andy G4PIQ's comments are most
appropriate for the echoes - unless there is some data and physical
mechanism that says otherwise. Of course this is the problem with many of
these unusual occurrences - we don't have enough relevant data with respect
to the ionosphere or whatever - just observations of an interesting
happening.
Carl K9LA
From midnight18 at cox.net Mon Feb 6 11:40:21 2017
From: midnight18 at cox.net (W7RH)
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 16:40:21 +0000
Subject: Topband: LDE on 160m
Message-ID:
In the mid -80's while living in Seattle ,WA I experienced extremely
strong LDE signals on 160M while in a SSB ragchew with locals on
~1860kHz. Unfortunately I lost the tape in my move to the SW US. The
delays were approximately 1 sec and were only heard within a radius of
about 50 miles.
A more interesting note was posted on this reflector several years ago
by AKI, JA5DQH of a delay of
25 hours 29 minutes! Links are here: http://w7rh.net/LDE.html and
http://w7rh.net/audio_files/JA5DQH_LDE.mp3
de Bob, W7RH
--
W7RH DM35OS
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein
From n4is at comcast.net Mon Feb 6 12:23:30 2017
From: n4is at comcast.net (JC)
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 12:23:30 -0500
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To:
References: <001D3E33D8E2484DA0519AB3500BB7E3@SpelierPC>
Message-ID: <000a01d2809d$bd995890$38cc09b0$@comcast.net>
Nowadays we have a huge amount of RF repeaters in use for several services,
like , Wi-Fi , LTE4, Data links. Microwave links, FM stations link, TV video
links.
All these systems has a receiver and a transmitter. The intermediated
frequency used can be close to few MHz depending the services. Like video.
Our HF signal can become data in these system,. A lot of this system does
not have the quality necessary, price is always a sales point, so poor
shield is very common.
SDR technology that provide long delays, and with very bad IP3 front end
are very common used on these system.
The long cables with not appropriate ground can become efficient antennas
for low bands, the common mode noise can get into the IF system and on the
receiver side and retransmitted on the transmitter side.
My point is that atmospheric plasma loops may not be the only answer for
250ms echo's. It is most unlike due the small power used during the event
observed. Manmade echo are more likely to explain the echo.
73's
JC
N4IS
repeaters, ----Original Message-----
From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Shoppa
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 4:44 PM
To: on7eh
Cc: topBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
I have heard echoes of my own signal under some circumstances too. More
often on 80M but a couple times on 160M. Often in the hour before dawn.
These echoes were also heard on other stations within a few hundred miles,
especially ones to my north.
For the 160M echoes, some stations in W1 were nearly uncopyable on my
receive antenna (K9AY) because of the echo. The echo was very similar to a
dit length and very similar in strength.
Interestingly enough, if I went to listen on my transmit antenna (Vertical),
the echo completely went away.
Tim N3QE
On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 4:32 AM, on7eh wrote:
> For the first time,
> I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
> They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
> I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
>
> The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S
> and NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
> The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height,
> sloping down to 11m.
>
> Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder
> what else does hearing echoes indicate?
>
>
> 73,
> Michel, ON7EH
>
>
>
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
From VE7SL at shaw.ca Mon Feb 6 13:05:49 2017
From: VE7SL at shaw.ca (Steve)
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 10:05:49 -0800
Subject: Topband: LDE on 160m
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
I had a friend (VE7BLF) many years ago who noted the same thing on 160m,
with his 'night before' CW CQ's being heard 24 hours later! The signals were
somewhat watery and not very stable...rather tortured sounding as if they
had been to hell and back. The mystery continued for a few years but was
never really solved ... we eventually decided that it might be coming from
the neighbor's VCR.
Recently, VE7CNF reproduced the condition with a controlled experiment:
http://phasordesign.com/VE7CNFamateurRadio/VCRLDE/VE7CNF_VHS_Propagation.htm
I suspect that any LDE's of unusually long time spans may be a result of
something similar.
Steve VE7SL
New site location:
WEB - "The VE7SL Radio Notebook": http://qsl.net/ve7sl/
VE7SL BLOG - "Homebrewing and Operating Adventures From 2200m to Nanowaves":
http://ve7sl.blogspot.ca/
From bpease2 at myfairpoint.net Mon Feb 6 13:49:33 2017
From: bpease2 at myfairpoint.net (Brian Pease)
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 13:49:33 -0500
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To: <000a01d2809d$bd995890$38cc09b0$@comcast.net>
References: <001D3E33D8E2484DA0519AB3500BB7E3@SpelierPC>
<000a01d2809d$bd995890$38cc09b0$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <8c3257ed-2f93-6820-9ffd-4b851de341bb@myfairpoint.net>
I experienced long delayed CW echos once on 20m, back in the 1980s
before there was much wireless stuff. Also, I lived in the country with
no close neighbors. The delay was significant because I was not using
instant break-in, with the rig taking at least 1/4 sec to switch to
receive. I think it might have been longer than the delay of an around
the world path. Besides, I think I was using my 2 Watt QRP rig.
On 2/6/2017 12:23 PM, JC wrote:
> Nowadays we have a huge amount of RF repeaters in use for several services,
> like , Wi-Fi , LTE4, Data links. Microwave links, FM stations link, TV video
> links.
>
> All these systems has a receiver and a transmitter. The intermediated
> frequency used can be close to few MHz depending the services. Like video.
> Our HF signal can become data in these system,. A lot of this system does
> not have the quality necessary, price is always a sales point, so poor
> shield is very common.
>
> SDR technology that provide long delays, and with very bad IP3 front end
> are very common used on these system.
>
> The long cables with not appropriate ground can become efficient antennas
> for low bands, the common mode noise can get into the IF system and on the
> receiver side and retransmitted on the transmitter side.
>
> My point is that atmospheric plasma loops may not be the only answer for
> 250ms echo's. It is most unlike due the small power used during the event
> observed. Manmade echo are more likely to explain the echo.
>
> 73's
> JC
> N4IS
>
>
>
> repeaters, ----Original Message-----
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim
> Shoppa
> Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 4:44 PM
> To: on7eh
> Cc: topBand List
> Subject: Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
>
> I have heard echoes of my own signal under some circumstances too. More
> often on 80M but a couple times on 160M. Often in the hour before dawn.
>
> These echoes were also heard on other stations within a few hundred miles,
> especially ones to my north.
>
> For the 160M echoes, some stations in W1 were nearly uncopyable on my
> receive antenna (K9AY) because of the echo. The echo was very similar to a
> dit length and very similar in strength.
>
> Interestingly enough, if I went to listen on my transmit antenna (Vertical),
> the echo completely went away.
>
> Tim N3QE
>
> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 4:32 AM, on7eh wrote:
>
>> For the first time,
>> I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
>> They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
>> I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
>>
>> The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S
>> and NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
>> The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height,
>> sloping down to 11m.
>>
>> Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder
>> what else does hearing echoes indicate?
>>
>>
>> 73,
>> Michel, ON7EH
>>
>>
>>
>> _________________
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
From mikewate at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 14:06:48 2017
From: mikewate at gmail.com (Mike Waters)
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 13:06:48 -0600
Subject: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To: <8c3257ed-2f93-6820-9ffd-4b851de341bb@myfairpoint.net>
References: <001D3E33D8E2484DA0519AB3500BB7E3@SpelierPC>
<000a01d2809d$bd995890$38cc09b0$@comcast.net>
<8c3257ed-2f93-6820-9ffd-4b851de341bb@myfairpoint.net>
Message-ID:
This is interesting.
I recall a discussion here about very long LDEs awhile back. IIRC, it was
suggested that perhaps the magnetosphere and the Van Allen belts might be
involved, rather than the much closer ionosphere.
I heard a double echo on 75m last year. I heard his direct signal which was
followed by two echoes. All this was milliseconds apart.
The station was in NW Ohio and I'm in SW Missouri.
73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
From dick.bingham at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 15:50:48 2017
From: dick.bingham at gmail.com (dick.bingham)
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 12:50:48 -0800
Subject: Topband: Long-delay Echos
Message-ID: <60355A17-193D-40E7-AF20-E822E4C23CC2@gmail.com>
Greetings All
Back in the late '70s I experienced some long duration echoes on 80-meters SSB. I had been burning the candle at both ends DXing at my pre-sunrise and late after dark for a few days and was falling asleep at the "mic".
I found myself getting teed-off by someone CQing on the freq I was using only to discover it was ME - my speech was delayed sufficiently to hear several complete words at the end of each transmission. Too bad I was too tired to properly document this event.
This took place at a QTH 100-miles north of Frisco.
73 Dick w7wkr/7 at CN97uj
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From radio75a3 at msn.com Mon Feb 6 22:13:57 2017
From: radio75a3 at msn.com (Arthur Delibert)
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 03:13:57 +0000
Subject: Topband: Fwd: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
In-Reply-To: <6625830.21078.1486383607980.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
References: <16695502.18400.1486381846846.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>,
<6625830.21078.1486383607980.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
Message-ID:
Thanks for these references on magnetospheric ducting. Looks like as good an explanation as any I've seen (and better than most).
Art Delibert, KB3FJO
________________________________
From: Topband on behalf of Andy Cook
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2017 7:20 AM
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Fwd: Echo on 160m yesterday morning
I think you'll find this was Magnetospheric Ducting. Take a look at some of the articles here http://la3za.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Unusual%20Propagation and here http://folk.uio.no/sverre/papers/2009_MagnetoDucting-QST-LA3ZA.pdf.
LA3ZA Radio & Electronics
la3za.blogspot.co.uk
Radio amateur, ham radio blog
ad hi - folk.uio.no
folk.uio.no
There are some instrumentation prob- lems when using ham transceivers as "radar" sets. Transmitlreceive switching may not be fast enough, and our newer rigs
Delay depends on your latitude - but couple of hundred millseconds is about right and this is a peak time of year for the effect.
I've heard this quite frequently on 80m around mid local-evening during the winter, and one occasion - on 3rd Feb last year - very strongly indeed. That night I was able to hear my echoes with just 25mW into a dipole on 80m - but it's often strong enough to be audible with a few watts. I've read papers which suggested it does also occur on 160m.
Reports of these being less strong / gone when you switch to a vertical look plausible as well since they apear to require vertical incidence from the ionosphere.
73,
Andy, G4PIQ
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home
www.contesting.com
Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display: ...
From df2py at t-online.de Wed Feb 8 01:15:04 2017
From: df2py at t-online.de (Dr. Wolf Ostwald)
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 07:15:04 +0100
Subject: Topband: LDEs, witches and magicians
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <54e9fb0d-11f6-26b2-b96e-afaae2e5e22c@t-online.de>
hello reflectees,
i never ever experienced echoes on 160. And i do a lot of transmitting
and have relatively sensitive rx systems.
Given the laws of field expansion and attenuation i consider it a hoax.
I have had round the globe echoes on 20m. But was using 6 el monobander
with power and at the rite time, when we had greyline. Sometimes 2 to
three rounds. That was physically explainable.
Anything else is from the land of Alice.
73 de wolf df2py
From raoulcoetzee at yahoo.com Wed Feb 8 08:56:35 2017
From: raoulcoetzee at yahoo.com (Raoul Coetzee)
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 13:56:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Topband: LDEs, witches and magicians
In-Reply-To: <54e9fb0d-11f6-26b2-b96e-afaae2e5e22c@t-online.de>
References:
<54e9fb0d-11f6-26b2-b96e-afaae2e5e22c@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <1271121832.437553.1486562195620@mail.yahoo.com>
Dear Dr Ostwald,
?Even though I have not experienced any echoes on HF,I think I will keep an open mind.We cannot even explain a weak force like gravity completely, after many years of ongoing research.Who are we to say that ?LDS ?belong in ?fairy tale? ?:-)After all, we are receiving echoes of the big bang in the microwave background,?so what is a few hours between friends on 160m ? :-)
Regards,Raoul ZS1C
From: Dr. Wolf Ostwald
To: topband at contesting.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 8:15 AM
Subject: Topband: LDEs, witches and magicians
hello reflectees,
i never ever experienced echoes on 160. And i do a lot of transmitting
and have relatively sensitive rx systems.
Given the laws of field expansion and attenuation i consider it a hoax.
I have had round the globe echoes on 20m. But was using 6 el monobander
with power and at the rite time, when we had greyline. Sometimes 2 to
three rounds. That was physically explainable.
Anything else is from the land of Alice.
73 de wolf? df2py
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
From k7tjr at msn.com Wed Feb 8 12:41:25 2017
From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee STRAHAN)
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 17:41:25 +0000
Subject: Topband: LDEs, witches and magicians
In-Reply-To: <54e9fb0d-11f6-26b2-b96e-afaae2e5e22c@t-online.de>
References:
<54e9fb0d-11f6-26b2-b96e-afaae2e5e22c@t-online.de>
Message-ID:
Greetings All,
I am afraid I have to take issue with you Wolf. And this may be a clue. I also have experienced echoes on 160 meters. Maybe it depends on longitude or latitude or something like that. N6TR not being too far away has also experienced them. All that being said I am positive due to my observations that a short delay has occurred here twice. During the one event one station sent me a message asking what was wrong with my signal. Tests confirmed there was nothing wrong with the signal and the echoes slowly faded away. Unfortunately I did not have the presence of mind to determine directionality or make a recording. The echoes were quite strong and lasted for several minutes. Guessing would put them at less than 100 mSec separation. My first thought at the time was that my receiving array was failing in some strange mode but that was definitely not the case.
Lee K7TJR OR
-----Original Message-----
From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Wolf Ostwald
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 10:15 PM
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Topband: LDEs, witches and magicians
hello reflectees,
i never ever experienced echoes on 160. And i do a lot of transmitting and have relatively sensitive rx systems.
Given the laws of field expansion and attenuation i consider it a hoax.
I have had round the globe echoes on 20m. But was using 6 el monobander with power and at the rite time, when we had greyline. Sometimes 2 to three rounds. That was physically explainable.
Anything else is from the land of Alice.
73 de wolf df2py
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
From tomg3olb at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 12:46:28 2017
From: tomg3olb at gmail.com (Tom Boucher)
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 17:46:28 +0000
Subject: Topband: Jeff's Book
Message-ID:
Just to say I received my copy of Jeff's 'DXing on the edge' today,
complete with 19 chapters, bought from 'Book Depository' via Amazon. Price
including shipping was GBP 15.26. Now for some interesting reading!
73,
Tom G3OLB
From aj6t at comcast.net Wed Feb 8 15:15:10 2017
From: aj6t at comcast.net (Walter Miller, AJ6T)
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 12:15:10 -0800
Subject: Topband: LDEs, witches and magicians
In-Reply-To:
References:
<54e9fb0d-11f6-26b2-b96e-afaae2e5e22c@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <12db3588-4f6d-6050-b505-d9f3d9eebc2b@comcast.net>
Lee and the group,
Reports of LDEs have always fascinated me. The only echos I have heard
were probably round-the-world or auroral distortions on high power 20
meter SSB stations.
I am trying to do an analysis of the reported LDEs on 160 and 80 meters
with echo times in the hundreds of milliseconds. Can you provide me
with the following information on your experiences:
1. Callsign of transmitting station and TX power, frequency and mode.
Also, was QSK in use?
2. Location (latitude and longitude or grid square of transmitting station).
3. UT Date and time of LDE
4. Callsign(s) and location(s) of receiving station(s). Was the echo
only heard by relatively nearby stations?
5. TX and RX antennas of all stations (N6TR's recent comment about
stronger echos with a low dipole was very interesting)
6. Estimated time delay of the echo
7. Estimated duration of the time the LDE was heard (just once, minutes,
hours, etc.)
8. Was there any frequency shift between the transmission and the echo?
9. Any other anecdotal information about the event.
Please reply to me privately in order not to clog up the reflector. I
will summarize the reports and make a posting back to the reflector later.
73,
Walt, AJ6T
On 2/8/2017 9:41 AM, Lee STRAHAN wrote:
> Greetings All,
> I am afraid I have to take issue with you Wolf. And this may be a clue. I also have experienced echoes on 160 meters. Maybe it depends on longitude or latitude or something like that. N6TR not being too far away has also experienced them. All that being said I am positive due to my observations that a short delay has occurred here twice. During the one event one station sent me a message asking what was wrong with my signal. Tests confirmed there was nothing wrong with the signal and the echoes slowly faded away. Unfortunately I did not have the presence of mind to determine directionality or make a recording. The echoes were quite strong and lasted for several minutes. Guessing would put them at less than 100 mSec separation. My first thought at the time was that my receiving array was failing in some strange mode but that was definitely not the case.
> Lee K7TJR OR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Wolf Ostwald
> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 10:15 PM
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: LDEs, witches and magicians
>
> hello reflectees,
> i never ever experienced echoes on 160. And i do a lot of transmitting and have relatively sensitive rx systems.
> Given the laws of field expansion and attenuation i consider it a hoax.
> I have had round the globe echoes on 20m. But was using 6 el monobander with power and at the rite time, when we had greyline. Sometimes 2 to three rounds. That was physically explainable.
> Anything else is from the land of Alice.
>
>
> 73 de wolf df2py
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
From mikewate at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 16:09:28 2017
From: mikewate at gmail.com (Mike Waters)
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 15:09:28 -0600
Subject: Topband: Jeff's Book
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
Has anyone posted a list of the differences between the two editions? I'd
love to know what they are, especially what (if any) technical info has
been added.
I have the first edition.
73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 11:46 AM, Tom Boucher wrote:
> Just to say I received my copy of Jeff's 'DXing on the edge' today,
> complete with 19 chapters, ...
>
From n5kilomike at gmail.com Thu Feb 16 08:46:48 2017
From: n5kilomike at gmail.com (N5KM - Kris)
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 07:46:48 -0600
Subject: Topband: Greyline prop forecast
Message-ID:
VOACAP and other propagation forecast tools provide shortpath and longpath
predictions.
However, at my sunrise I'd like to know the greyline path prediction. For
instance, SouthWest
to Asia (from Texas). Does anyone know of a propagation tool that shows
greyline predictions?
Thanks,
Kris N5KM
From carlluetzelschwab at gmail.com Thu Feb 16 11:15:12 2017
From: carlluetzelschwab at gmail.com (Carl Luetzelschwab)
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 11:15:12 -0500
Subject: Topband: greyline prop forecast
Message-ID:
Kris N5KM asked about greyline propagation predictions. Since his question
was posted to the topband reflector, I assume he's only asking in relation
to 160-Meters.
We do not have any reliable propagation predictions for greyline on 160m.
In fact, we really don't have any reliable propagation predictions for any
time on 160m. In other words, we do not know in advance what night is going
to be good and what night is not going to be good.
The best thing to do is know the common darkness times between you and your
target, and know sunrise and sunset times at both ends of the path. Make
sure you're on when it's dark and make sure you're on around the
appropriate sunrise/sunset times.
I agree that it would be nice to know when 160m is good, but we're simply
not there yet. My guess is we will not even see this in our lifetimes as
there is no continual data being taken in the lower ionosphere to gives us
clues as to what's going on.
So get on and enjoy the magic of topband when it happens.
Carl K9LA
From wrcromwell at gmail.com Thu Feb 16 11:26:29 2017
From: wrcromwell at gmail.com (Bill Cromwell)
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 11:26:29 -0500
Subject: Topband: greyline prop forecast
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <74c05679-f419-dc37-5179-eb7f3053eaad@gmail.com>
Hi Carl,
It would be nice to have some hard numbers but they are subject
sometimes to misinterpretation. I would have liked to see some hard data
about this too and not just for 160 meters. It seems like that grey line
involves some sort of magic but just when we think we have it figured
out we get fooled - again. The most reliable 'forecast' isn't really a
forecast at all. As you have said - just turn the radio on and see
what's available. I am afraid too many of us look at the forecasts and
decide there is nothing to hear and so the radio sits cold and dark. How
many opportunities are missed that way is anybody's guess. There are no
hard numbers for that either.
73,
Bill KU8H
On 02/16/2017 11:15 AM, Carl Luetzelschwab wrote:
> Kris N5KM asked about greyline propagation predictions. Since his question
> was posted to the topband reflector, I assume he's only asking in relation
> to 160-Meters.
>
> We do not have any reliable propagation predictions for greyline on 160m.
> In fact, we really don't have any reliable propagation predictions for any
> time on 160m. In other words, we do not know in advance what night is going
> to be good and what night is not going to be good.
>
> The best thing to do is know the common darkness times between you and your
> target, and know sunrise and sunset times at both ends of the path. Make
> sure you're on when it's dark and make sure you're on around the
> appropriate sunrise/sunset times.
>
> I agree that it would be nice to know when 160m is good, but we're simply
> not there yet. My guess is we will not even see this in our lifetimes as
> there is no continual data being taken in the lower ionosphere to gives us
> clues as to what's going on.
>
> So get on and enjoy the magic of topband when it happens.
>
> Carl K9LA
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
--
bark less - wag more
From n5kilomike at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 06:25:32 2017
From: n5kilomike at gmail.com (N5KM - Kris)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 05:25:32 -0600
Subject: Topband: greyline prop forecast
Message-ID:
Hi Carl,
Well, I guess I was cheating a bit by posting here. I was hoping the folks
who
dwell here might be more knowledgeable about propagation than other forums.
(You prove my case. Hi.)
I've been concentrating on the lowbands (160m and 80m) so my question really
was concerning 80m greyline propagation. I acknowledge the vagaries of 160m
propagation, as you have described. I was just curious if greyline
propagation
can be predicted the way SP/LP can be.
73,
Kris N5KM
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 11:15:12 -0500
> From: Carl Luetzelschwab
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: greyline prop forecast
> Message-ID:
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Kris N5KM asked about greyline propagation predictions. Since his question
> was posted to the topband reflector, I assume he's only asking in relation
> to 160-Meters.
>
> We do not have any reliable propagation predictions for greyline on 160m.
> In fact, we really don't have any reliable propagation predictions for any
> time on 160m. In other words, we do not know in advance what night is going
> to be good and what night is not going to be good.
>
> The best thing to do is know the common darkness times between you and your
> target, and know sunrise and sunset times at both ends of the path. Make
> sure you're on when it's dark and make sure you're on around the
> appropriate sunrise/sunset times.
>
> I agree that it would be nice to know when 160m is good, but we're simply
> not there yet. My guess is we will not even see this in our lifetimes as
> there is no continual data being taken in the lower ionosphere to gives us
> clues as to what's going on.
>
> So get on and enjoy the magic of topband when it happens.
>
> Carl K9LA
From carlluetzelschwab at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 09:47:55 2017
From: carlluetzelschwab at gmail.com (Carl Luetzelschwab)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 09:47:55 -0500
Subject: Topband: greyline forecast for 80m
Message-ID:
Hello Kris N5KM,
Thanks for the clarification.
80m is a different story. Yes, we can predict greyline propagation on 80m
(I assume when you say greyline propagation, you mean propagation along the
terminator). And our predictions say there is still significant loss along
and near the terminator on the low bands. Simply put, absorption is
proportional to the product of electron density times electron-neutral
collision frequency - so as we progress from day to night, absorption moves
up from the D region to the lower E region. There is still a prohibitive
amount of absorption along the terminator on the low bands.
What I and others believe is that what really happens is the RF takes a
short cut across the dark ionosphere, where absorption is minimal. The RF
gets far enough away from the terminator to minimize absorption, but not
far enough away to look like it's not greyline. Thus the importance of the
greyline is to put both ends of the path in or near darkness. For a great
article on 80m greyline, read Ed N4II's article in the Nov/Dec QEX titled
"Gray Line Propagation, or Florida to Cocos (Keeling) on 80m". I have
written about the problems with "greyline propagation" numerous times, but
N4II's article is more elegant!
So can we predict this alternate explanation of greyline? Unfortunately, no
- as it involves two great circle paths joined by a skew point. Having said
that, many years ago Rod VE7VV developed a DOS program to address these
skewed paths. I am not familiar enough with it at the moment to offer any
comments. I believe Bill W4ZV has used it more extensively. One comment -
the output of this program appears to be in terms of a monthly median,
since the model of the ionosphere in our prediction programs is a monthly
median model. In other words, VE7VV's predictions say something like a
signal will be so many dB above 0.5 uV on a percentage of days.
Unfortunately, we do not know which will be the good days. Bottom line -
keep you butt in the chair at the appropriate times.
Carl K9LA
From donovanf at starpower.net Fri Feb 17 10:44:15 2017
From: donovanf at starpower.net (donovanf at starpower.net)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 10:44:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Topband: greyline prop forecast
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <1678948075.2635836.1487346255670.JavaMail.root@starpower.net>
Hi Kris,
There's no substitute for butt in chair time if you want to work grey
line long path DX on 80 meters. 160 meters is also possible, but
much more difficult.
Just check your local sunrise/sunset times and the sunrise/sunset
times in your target area and sit your butt in your chair especially
during the 30 minutes leading up to sunrise at the eastern end of
the path.
While we've been discussing this topic, at least half a dozen east
coast USA 80 meter DXers worked XX9D on the 80 meter greyline
longpath at about 2300Z and none of us were aided by forecasts.
Imagine that...
I know of no 80 meter DXer who has achieved greyline long path
success through forecasts, nor do we know of any technical
breakthroughs on the horizon that will change this in the foreseeable
future.
73
Frank
W3LPL
----- Original Message -----
From: "N5KM - Kris"
To: topband at contesting.com
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 11:25:32 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: greyline prop forecast
Hi Carl,
Well, I guess I was cheating a bit by posting here. I was hoping the folks
who
dwell here might be more knowledgeable about propagation than other forums.
(You prove my case. Hi.)
I've been concentrating on the lowbands (160m and 80m) so my question really
was concerning 80m greyline propagation. I acknowledge the vagaries of 160m
propagation, as you have described. I was just curious if greyline
propagation
can be predicted the way SP/LP can be.
73,
Kris N5KM
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 11:15:12 -0500
> From: Carl Luetzelschwab
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: greyline prop forecast
> Message-ID:
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Kris N5KM asked about greyline propagation predictions. Since his question
> was posted to the topband reflector, I assume he's only asking in relation
> to 160-Meters.
>
> We do not have any reliable propagation predictions for greyline on 160m.
> In fact, we really don't have any reliable propagation predictions for any
> time on 160m. In other words, we do not know in advance what night is going
> to be good and what night is not going to be good.
>
> The best thing to do is know the common darkness times between you and your
> target, and know sunrise and sunset times at both ends of the path. Make
> sure you're on when it's dark and make sure you're on around the
> appropriate sunrise/sunset times.
>
> I agree that it would be nice to know when 160m is good, but we're simply
> not there yet. My guess is we will not even see this in our lifetimes as
> there is no continual data being taken in the lower ionosphere to gives us
> clues as to what's going on.
>
> So get on and enjoy the magic of topband when it happens.
>
> Carl K9LA
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
From k9fd at flex.com Fri Feb 17 12:50:14 2017
From: k9fd at flex.com (Merv Schweigert)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 07:50:14 -1000
Subject: Topband: greyline forecast for 80m
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <58A737D6.4040906@flex.com>
I agree seat time is the only sure way. I have tried a number of
different prop programs
and have not been satisfied so to speak.
What I use now most of the time does not specifically show grey line,
but does do long
and short path, and you can "estimate" grey line by the sunrise /
sunset times shown
and the path predictions to the destination.
It is the old old W6EL prop program.
For me it has been very accurate in predicting openings, simple to use.
Have been able to snag needed countries on the low bands using this
tool, its interesting
to be sitting on the freq and hearing just whispers of the DX, and as
the time plotted
by W6EL approaches the signal comes up out of the noise and you have a
shot at
working them.
Some times the window is very short, but it seems to be pretty accurate
as to time / freq.
It only covers 80 to 10 meters by the way.
73 Merv K9FD/KH6
> Hello Kris N5KM,
>
> Thanks for the clarification.
>
> 80m is a different story. Yes, we can predict greyline propagation on 80m
> (I assume when you say greyline propagation, you mean propagation along the
> terminator). And our predictions say there is still significant loss along
> and near the terminator on the low bands. Simply put, absorption is
> proportional to the product of electron density times electron-neutral
> collision frequency - so as we progress from day to night, absorption moves
> up from the D region to the lower E region. There is still a prohibitive
> amount of absorption along the terminator on the low bands.
>
> What I and others believe is that what really happens is the RF takes a
> short cut across the dark ionosphere, where absorption is minimal. The RF
> gets far enough away from the terminator to minimize absorption, but not
> far enough away to look like it's not greyline. Thus the importance of the
> greyline is to put both ends of the path in or near darkness. For a great
> article on 80m greyline, read Ed N4II's article in the Nov/Dec QEX titled
> "Gray Line Propagation, or Florida to Cocos (Keeling) on 80m". I have
> written about the problems with "greyline propagation" numerous times, but
> N4II's article is more elegant!
>
> So can we predict this alternate explanation of greyline? Unfortunately, no
> - as it involves two great circle paths joined by a skew point. Having said
> that, many years ago Rod VE7VV developed a DOS program to address these
> skewed paths. I am not familiar enough with it at the moment to offer any
> comments. I believe Bill W4ZV has used it more extensively. One comment -
> the output of this program appears to be in terms of a monthly median,
> since the model of the ionosphere in our prediction programs is a monthly
> median model. In other words, VE7VV's predictions say something like a
> signal will be so many dB above 0.5 uV on a percentage of days.
> Unfortunately, we do not know which will be the good days. Bottom line -
> keep you butt in the chair at the appropriate times.
>
> Carl K9LA
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
From mirko.s57ad at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 13:36:39 2017
From: mirko.s57ad at gmail.com (S57AD)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 19:36:39 +0100
Subject: Topband: greyline forecast for 80m
In-Reply-To: <58A737D6.4040906@flex.com>
References:
<58A737D6.4040906@flex.com>
Message-ID:
W6EL prop program helped me to work my first (and single, so far) Alaska on
80m some 20 years ago.
73, Mirko, S57AD
2017-02-17 18:50 GMT+01:00 Merv Schweigert via Topband <
topband at contesting.com>:
> I agree seat time is the only sure way. I have tried a number of
> different prop programs
> and have not been satisfied so to speak.
>
> What I use now most of the time does not specifically show grey line, but
> does do long
> and short path, and you can "estimate" grey line by the sunrise / sunset
> times shown
> and the path predictions to the destination.
>
> It is the old old W6EL prop program.
>
> For me it has been very accurate in predicting openings, simple to use.
> Have been able to snag needed countries on the low bands using this tool,
> its interesting
> to be sitting on the freq and hearing just whispers of the DX, and as the
> time plotted
> by W6EL approaches the signal comes up out of the noise and you have a
> shot at
> working them.
> Some times the window is very short, but it seems to be pretty accurate
> as to time / freq.
> It only covers 80 to 10 meters by the way.
>
> 73 Merv K9FD/KH6
>
> Hello Kris N5KM,
>>
>> Thanks for the clarification.
>>
>> 80m is a different story. Yes, we can predict greyline propagation on 80m
>> (I assume when you say greyline propagation, you mean propagation along
>> the
>> terminator). And our predictions say there is still significant loss along
>> and near the terminator on the low bands. Simply put, absorption is
>> proportional to the product of electron density times electron-neutral
>> collision frequency - so as we progress from day to night, absorption
>> moves
>> up from the D region to the lower E region. There is still a prohibitive
>> amount of absorption along the terminator on the low bands.
>>
>> What I and others believe is that what really happens is the RF takes a
>> short cut across the dark ionosphere, where absorption is minimal. The RF
>> gets far enough away from the terminator to minimize absorption, but not
>> far enough away to look like it's not greyline. Thus the importance of the
>> greyline is to put both ends of the path in or near darkness. For a great
>> article on 80m greyline, read Ed N4II's article in the Nov/Dec QEX titled
>> "Gray Line Propagation, or Florida to Cocos (Keeling) on 80m". I have
>> written about the problems with "greyline propagation" numerous times, but
>> N4II's article is more elegant!
>>
>> So can we predict this alternate explanation of greyline? Unfortunately,
>> no
>> - as it involves two great circle paths joined by a skew point. Having
>> said
>> that, many years ago Rod VE7VV developed a DOS program to address these
>> skewed paths. I am not familiar enough with it at the moment to offer any
>> comments. I believe Bill W4ZV has used it more extensively. One comment -
>> the output of this program appears to be in terms of a monthly median,
>> since the model of the ionosphere in our prediction programs is a monthly
>> median model. In other words, VE7VV's predictions say something like a
>> signal will be so many dB above 0.5 uV on a percentage of days.
>> Unfortunately, we do not know which will be the good days. Bottom line -
>> keep you butt in the chair at the appropriate times.
>>
>> Carl K9LA
>> _________________
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>
>>
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
--
Mirko S57AD
From wrcromwell at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 13:43:03 2017
From: wrcromwell at gmail.com (Bill Cromwell)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 13:43:03 -0500
Subject: Topband: greyline prop forecast
In-Reply-To: <1678948075.2635836.1487346255670.JavaMail.root@starpower.net>
References: <1678948075.2635836.1487346255670.JavaMail.root@starpower.net>
Message-ID:
Hi,
I sometimes look at the forecasts and space weather info but that is
more often "after action" done in the chair. If we look at that first it
gives a place to start. But I agree the final result comes from the
chair time.
73,
Bill KU8H
On 02/17/2017 10:44 AM, donovanf at starpower.net wrote:
> Hi Kris,
>
>
> There's no substitute for butt in chair time if you want to work grey
> line long path DX on 80 meters. 160 meters is also possible, but
> much more difficult.
>
>
--
bark less - wag more
From thomasfgiella at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 14:21:44 2017
From: thomasfgiella at gmail.com (Thomas F. Giella W4HM)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 14:21:44 -0500
Subject: Topband: greyline prop forecast
Message-ID:
True grey line radio wave propagation rarely occurs on 160 meters and true
long path propagation even less. When it does the opening is usually only a
few minutes long. Instead it's usually a skewed path that includes RF signal
ducting in the E Valley/F layer propagation region.
I had a web page on the interweb for 20 years concerning MF radio wave
propagation (300-3000 kHz).
23.) The Gray line/Gray line Propagation-
A general east-west transition between daytime and nighttime (twilight)
where enhanced propagation conditions "may" occur. Near local sunrise the
absorptive D layer has yet to become illuminated by the Sun, though the
higher in altitude F/F2 layer has. Inversely near local sunset the
absorptive D layer is losing illumination by the Sun, though the higher in
altitude F/F2 layer still is. There is also a strengthening and weakening
process in the E layer, as well as angle tilts and altitude changes in the
D, E and F layers.
This process can allow for enhanced propagation conditions within the
general north-south gray line corridor. It is most pronounced on 30, 40 and
60 meters and less so on 80 and 160 meters. Actually most grey line
propagation on 160 meters and to a lesser extent on 80 meters is
perpendicular (right angles) to the corridor. In my personal observation the
grey line propagation enhancement process is still not totally understood
and it's benefit exaggerated to almost mythical proportion. (See definition
#8.) E Valley/F Layer Propagation Ducting Mechanism/Chordal Hop
Propagation).
8.) E Valley/F Layer Propagation Ducting Mechanism/Chordal Hop Propagation-
Antenna polarization plays a large role in the success of a long haul DX
contact. As a medium frequency RF signal traverses our planets magnetic
lines of force in a perpendicular manner on high and mid latitude paths say
between W3 land and SM, higher angle horizontally polarized signals are more
readily absorbed then lower angle vertically polarized signals. On other
paths on the globe opposite results can be found, i.e. horizontally
polarized signals suffer less absorption on a propagation path between VK6
and W4.
You would expect a true long path QSO on 160 to be theoretically possible
but improbable on most paths during any season. However a G to VK long path
might be possible if the E Valley/F layer ducting propagation mechanism or
the chordal hop propagation mechanism is involved. A 160 meter signal can
traverse a daylight path via these propagation modes if the transmitted
signal enters/exits at each end of the path at or near sunrise/sunset when
the D layer ionization is weak (ionosphere tilting).
There is an upward tilt of ionosphere layers towards the east at sunrise. As
a result, signals coming from the west are refracted upward at steeper
angles and are therefore heard better on higher angle antennas. The opposite
is true at local sunset.
A note though, the E-valley/F layer ducting propagation mechanism does not
exist only during gray line periods. internal buoyancy/gravity waves
(IBGW's) are a source of the ducting mechanism and allow for occurrences of
ducting along any propagation path in total darkness. Measurement of the
timing of arrival of propagated medium frequency RF signals demonstrates the
existence of the ducting mechanism, versus conventional numerous E layer
land/ocean surface hops.
The majority of the time medium frequency RF signals in excess of
approximately 3200 miles propagate via the E valley/F layer propagation
mechanism or via the chordal hop (mostly on HF near local sunrise and
sunset) propagation mechanism. Typically the majority of transmit antenna's
radiation must be focused between 40-60 deg. to enter the E valley/F layer
duct. (See definition #23.) The Grey line/Grey line Propagation).
A solar flux of at least 150 is necessary for routine stable formation of
the E valley/F layer ducting mechanism. Therefore formation of the duct is
less prevalent at the bottom of solar cycle and long haul propagation poorer
at solar minimum.
And
GENERAL GUIDELINES CONCERNING CORRELATION OF PROPAGATION INDICES TO ACTUAL
MF PROPAGATION CONDITIONS-
NOTE!!! The propagation indices "interpretations" are my personal
intellectual property. Therefore the propagation indices interpretations
contained herein is copyrighted ? 1988-2017 by Thomas F. Giella, W4HM, all
rights reserved. Reproduction of information herein is allowed without
permission in advance as long as proper credit is given.
All 13 of the following indices have to occur as described below in order to
see the best global medium frequency (MF) radio wave propagation possible.
1.) Dropping geomagnetic field indices numbers are better, Kp of 0 best.
2.) A daily sunspot number under 100, under 70 best.
3.) A daily sunspot number no higher then the 100 for routine stable
formation of the E Valley/F Layer ducting mechanism.
4.) Previous 24 hour Ap index under 10, fewer than 7 for several days
consecutively are best.
5.) Previous 3 hours Kp index fewer than 3 for mid latitude paths, fewer
than 2 for high latitude paths, 0 for several days consecutively is best.
6.) Energetic proton flux levels no greater than 10 MeV (10+0).
7.) Background x-ray flux levels of A0 for several days consecutively.
8.) No current STRATWARM alert.
9.) Interplanetary magnetic field (IMF) Bz with a (positive number) sign,
indicates a lesser chance of high latitude path aurora
absorption/unpredictable refraction or scattering of medium frequency RF
signals, when the Kp is above 3.
10.) A -10 or better towards a positive number Dst index during the recovery
time after a geomagnetic storm, as related to the equatorial ring current. A
positive number is best.
11.) Galactic cosmic rays decrease to -3 units below zero and trending
towards zero.
12.) Energetic electrons no greater than 2 MeV (2+0).
13. A solar wind speed of less than 300 km/s for several days consecutively.
73 & GUD DX,
Thomas F. Giella W4HM
Lakeland, FL, USA
thomasfgiella at gmail.com
From tshoppa at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 14:27:12 2017
From: tshoppa at gmail.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 14:27:12 -0500
Subject: Topband: greyline forecast for 80m
In-Reply-To:
References:
<58A737D6.4040906@flex.com>
Message-ID:
Mirko S57AD, congratulations! I'm much closer to Alaska and I only work
Alaska a couple times a year on 80M.
I have been a ham for 39 years now, but I am a "newbie" to 80M. I never had
an actual 80M antenna until 2008.
The first week I had my 80M antenna up, I didn't "know" that "80M was only
a nighttime band" and I would go CQ on 80M before my sundown. That's how I
worked VK6HD on 80M while it was still daylight outside :-)
I have since gone on to place high in DX Marathon 80M category several
years in a row. Never #1 but up there.
Only a handful of my 80M DX contacts are made while the sun is above the
horizon on both ends, almost all are purely conventional pure-dark paths or
at least deep-dark-on-one-end paths.
That's in contrast to, say, long path on 40M to JA in my winter afternoon.
That's seems quite common in comparison.
A truly captivating study of 80M grey line was made and published by N4II.
He analyzed the grey line paths from Cocos-Keeling to W4 on 80M. He
published a QEX article that explores grey line through log statistics,
propagation models, and truly excellent anecdotes who caught rare DX on 80M
via grey line. A powerpoint presentation by N4II has many of the details
and highlights: http://www.qsl.net/k4fk/presentations/VK9C-W4.pdf
N4II's article and presentation deserves some kind of award. It is the
pinnacle of ham radio excellence as it combines theory, data, and reduction
to practice in "catching the big one".
Tim N3QE
On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 1:36 PM, S57AD wrote:
> W6EL prop program helped me to work my first (and single, so far) Alaska on
> 80m some 20 years ago.
>
>
> 73, Mirko, S57AD
>
> 2017-02-17 18:50 GMT+01:00 Merv Schweigert via Topband <
> topband at contesting.com>:
>
> > I agree seat time is the only sure way. I have tried a number of
> > different prop programs
> > and have not been satisfied so to speak.
> >
> > What I use now most of the time does not specifically show grey line, but
> > does do long
> > and short path, and you can "estimate" grey line by the sunrise / sunset
> > times shown
> > and the path predictions to the destination.
> >
> > It is the old old W6EL prop program.
> >
> > For me it has been very accurate in predicting openings, simple to use.
> > Have been able to snag needed countries on the low bands using this tool,
> > its interesting
> > to be sitting on the freq and hearing just whispers of the DX, and as the
> > time plotted
> > by W6EL approaches the signal comes up out of the noise and you have a
> > shot at
> > working them.
> > Some times the window is very short, but it seems to be pretty accurate
> > as to time / freq.
> > It only covers 80 to 10 meters by the way.
> >
> > 73 Merv K9FD/KH6
> >
> > Hello Kris N5KM,
> >>
> >> Thanks for the clarification.
> >>
> >> 80m is a different story. Yes, we can predict greyline propagation on
> 80m
> >> (I assume when you say greyline propagation, you mean propagation along
> >> the
> >> terminator). And our predictions say there is still significant loss
> along
> >> and near the terminator on the low bands. Simply put, absorption is
> >> proportional to the product of electron density times electron-neutral
> >> collision frequency - so as we progress from day to night, absorption
> >> moves
> >> up from the D region to the lower E region. There is still a prohibitive
> >> amount of absorption along the terminator on the low bands.
> >>
> >> What I and others believe is that what really happens is the RF takes a
> >> short cut across the dark ionosphere, where absorption is minimal. The
> RF
> >> gets far enough away from the terminator to minimize absorption, but not
> >> far enough away to look like it's not greyline. Thus the importance of
> the
> >> greyline is to put both ends of the path in or near darkness. For a
> great
> >> article on 80m greyline, read Ed N4II's article in the Nov/Dec QEX
> titled
> >> "Gray Line Propagation, or Florida to Cocos (Keeling) on 80m". I have
> >> written about the problems with "greyline propagation" numerous times,
> but
> >> N4II's article is more elegant!
> >>
> >> So can we predict this alternate explanation of greyline? Unfortunately,
> >> no
> >> - as it involves two great circle paths joined by a skew point. Having
> >> said
> >> that, many years ago Rod VE7VV developed a DOS program to address these
> >> skewed paths. I am not familiar enough with it at the moment to offer
> any
> >> comments. I believe Bill W4ZV has used it more extensively. One comment
> -
> >> the output of this program appears to be in terms of a monthly median,
> >> since the model of the ionosphere in our prediction programs is a
> monthly
> >> median model. In other words, VE7VV's predictions say something like a
> >> signal will be so many dB above 0.5 uV on a percentage of days.
> >> Unfortunately, we do not know which will be the good days. Bottom line -
> >> keep you butt in the chair at the appropriate times.
> >>
> >> Carl K9LA
> >> _________________
> >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> >>
> >>
> > _________________
> > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Mirko S57AD
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
From thomasfgiella at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 14:36:20 2017
From: thomasfgiella at gmail.com (Thomas F. Giella)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 14:36:20 -0500
Subject: Topband: W4HM Daily HF Radio Wave Propagation Forecast
Message-ID:
I also produce a daily HF radio wave propagation forecast on my Facebook
page at https://www.facebook.com/thomasfranklingiellaw4hm
For my hamateur radio and SWL friends around the globe:
Feel free to redistribute this "not for profit" solar, space and geomagnetic
weather discussion and HF radio wave propagation forecast, as long as you
redistribute it in it's entirety and give me credit for it.
Images associated with this HF radio wave propagation forecast can be found
at https://www.facebook.com/thomasfranklingiellaw4hm
I have decided to begin posting some of my daily solar, space and
geomagnetic weather discussions and HF radio wave propagation forecasts in
my Twitter account at
@GiellaW4hm https://twitter.com/?lang=en .
Of course it will consist of little snippets of what's going on as Twitter
severely limits tweets as far as content length.
Also feel free to leave a "LIKE" every time you access this discussion and
forecast as it's the only method I have to gauge the usefulness of it.
Issued on Friday February 17, 2017 at 1300 UTC
Global HF Radio Wave Propagation Forecast
HAMATEUR & SW BROADCAST HF BANDS:
NORTHERN HEMISPHERE RADIO WAVE PROPAGATION-
80-60 (75-60) meters- fair at night and poor at day,
40-30 (41-25) meters- fair at night and fair at day,
20-17 (22-16) meters- very poor at night and fair at day,
15 (13) meters- very poor at night and poor at day,
12-10 (11) meters- very poor at night and very poor at day.
SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE RADIO WAVE PROPAGATION-
80-60 (75-60) meters- poor at night and very poor at day,
40-30 (41-25) meters- fair at night and poor at day,
20-17 (22-16) meters- fair at night and fair at day,
15 (13) meters- poor at night and fair at day,
12-10 (11) meters- very poor at night and very poor at day.
Received RF signal strength scale-
Very Good- +1 over S9 Or Greater
Good- S7-9
Fair- S4-6
Poor- S1-3
Very Poor- S0
Meter Band Equivalents
Ham & SWL
160-> 90
80-> 75
60-> 60
40-> 49, 41
30-> 31, 25
20-> 22, 19
17-> 16, 15
15-> 13
12,10-> 11
Please keep in mind that this is a relatively simplified HF radio wave
propagation forecast, so as to keep it easily understandable by the average
radio enthusiast.
Globally HF radio wave propagation conditions are most evenly balanced
during the fall and spring equinoxes and most diametrically opposed during
the summer and winter solstices.
Conditions also change daily, weekly, monthly, yearly and by decade, as the
sun rises and sets at different times and at different angles from the
ecliptic, as well as by radio wave frequency. This is due to changes in the
maximum usable frequency (MUF), lowest usable frequency (LUF) and F layer
critical frequency (FoF2).
The D and E layers also come into play through RF radio wave signal
absorption and refraction. And then there is sporadic E (Es) radio wave
propagation that can really throw a wrench into the gears so to speak.
Things like sporadic E (Es) radio wave propagation and lightning storm
static can impact HF radio wave propagation in an unpredictable manner and
mostly bad.
Ongoing solar, space and geomagnetic weather goings on also impact HF radio
wave propagation conditions in a negative manner.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solar Space & Geomagnetic Weather Conditions On
Thursday February 16, 2017-
Solar activity was low.
Earth's magnetic field was unsettled.
The three daily solar flux index (SFI) numbers were 74.6 74.0 74.3.
The official daily sunspot number (SSN) was 11.
Sunspot group #12635 was located near N11E42 with a simple alpha magnetic
signature.
Newly emerged sunspot group #12636 was located near N15E61 with a simple
beta magnetic signature.
In 2017 there were 11 days with a daily sunspot number (SSN) of 0.
Considering that solar minimum won't occur for approximately three more
years, +/- one year, seeing daily SSN's of 0 occurring now is unusually
early.
In 2016 there were 32 days with a daily sunspot number (SSN) of 0.
Considering that solar minimum won't occur for approximately three more
years, seeing daily SSN's of 0 occurring now is unusually early.
As we move forward towards the next solar minimum between solar cycle #24
and #25 the number of days with a 0 daily SSN will steadily increase.
Eventually every day for many many many months will see a 0, the big goose
egg.
In 2008 I fore casted solar cycle 24 to be the weakest in the past 100 years
and that forecast verified. I also fore casted that solar cycle 25 would be
virtually non existent, similar to the Dalton type solar minimum that
occurred in the early 1800's. It will probably be very difficult to
determine when solar cycle 24 ended and solar cycle 25 began.
No earth directed solar flares occurred.
No earth directed coronal mass ejections (CME) occurred.
No earth directed collapsing magnetic filament eruptions occurred.
The twenty four hour period 3 hour interval planetary K index (Kp) was at
unsettled to quiet geomagnetic conditions of 1 1 2 1 2 3 2 2.
The maximum and minimum planetary A index (Ap) ranged between 15 and 3,
which was at unsettled to quiet geomagnetic conditions.
The daily averaged background x-ray flux was A5.7.
The daily averaged vertical component (Bz) of earth's magnetic field was
+0.5 nT north.
The maximum and minimum Dst ranged between +17 and -24.
No energetic proton events greater than 10 MeV (10+0) occurred.
The maximum and minimum solar wind speed was 413 and 282. km/s.
There was a recurrent trans equatorial (geoeffective) directly earth facing
coronal hole #790 (#786). During it's last passage across the earth facing
side of the sun it produced minor (Kp-4) negative impacts on HF radio wave
propagation.
There was a recurrent trans equatorial earth facing coronal hole #791
(#787). During it's last passage across the earth facing side of the sun it
produced minor (Kp-4) negative impacts on HF radio wave propagation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Kp geomagnetic indices are-
0-2- quiet
3- unsettled
4- active
5- minor geomagnetic storming
6- moderate
7- strong
8- severe
9- extreme
10- our atmosphere just got cooked off like on Mars and we are all dead.
The Ap geomagnetic indices are-
0-7- quiet
8-15 unsettled
16-29- active
30-49- minor geomagnetic storm
50-99- major
100-400- severe
>401- our atmosphere just got cooked off like on Mars and we are all dead.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GENERAL GUIDELINES CONCERNING CORRELATION OF PROPAGATION INDICES TO ACTUAL
HF PROPAGATION CONDITIONS-
NOTE!!! The propagation indices "interpretations" are my personal
intellectual property. Therefore the radio wave propagation indices
interpretations contained herein is copyrighted ? 1988-2017 by Thomas F.
Giella, W4HM, all rights reserved. Reproduction of information herein is
allowed without permission in advance as long as proper credit is given.
All 14 of the following indices have to occur as described below in order to
see the best global high frequency radio wave propagation possible.
Something that happens rarely.
1.) Dropping geomagnetic field indices numbers are better, Kp of 0 best.
2.) A daily sunspot number of 150 or higher, 200 or higher best.
3.) A daily sunspot number of greater than 100 for routine stable formation
of the E Valley/F Layer ducting mechanism.
4.) Previous 24 hour Ap index under 10, fewer than 7 for several days
consecutively are best.
5.) Previous 3 hours Kp index fewer than 3 for mid latitude paths, fewer
than 2 for high latitude paths, 0 for several days consecutively is best.
6.) Energetic protons no greater than 10 MeV (10+0).
7.) Background x-ray flux levels greater than B1 for several days
consecutively, greater than C1 best.
8.) No current STRATWARM alert.
9.) Interplanetary magnetic field (IMF) Bz with a (positive number) sign,
indicates a lesser chance of high latitude path aurora
absorption/unpredictable refraction or scattering of medium frequency RF
signals, when the Kp is above 3.
10.) A -10 or better towards a positive number Dst index during the recovery
time after a geomagnetic storm, as related to the equatorial ring current. A
positive number is best.
11.) Rising positive T index number. The T Index tracks with the F2 layer
critical frequency (foF2) and sunspot number (SSN) and indicates the
capability of the F2 layer to refract RF signals.
12.) Galactic cosmic rays decrease to -3 units below zero and trending
towards zero.
13.) Energetic electron flux levels no greater than 2 MeV (2+0).
14. A solar wind speed of less than 300 km/s for several days consecutively.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Standard Disclaimer-
Note! I use error prone RAW public domain data from the NOAA Space
Environment Center, other U.S. government organizations and educational
institutions, to produce my comprehensive radio wave propagation forecast.
This data is gathered and made public by the U.S. Government using taxpayer
$$$ (including mine).
However the propagation forecast that I produce from the RAW public domain
data is my personal intellectual property. Therefore this radio wave
propagation forecast contained herein is copyrighted ? 1988-2017 by Thomas
F. Giella, W4HM.
Feel free to redistribute this solar, space and geomagnetic weather
discussion and HF radio wave propagation forecast, as long as you
redistribute it in it's entirety and give me credit for it.
Also solar, space and geomagnetic weather forecasting is still an inexact
science. The forecasts are not official but for educational and hobby
related purposes only and are subject to human error and acts of God,
therefore no guarantee or warranty implied.
73 & GUD DX,
Thomas F. Giella, W4HM
Lakeland, FL, USA
From k7cw at yahoo.com Fri Feb 17 14:40:59 2017
From: k7cw at yahoo.com (Paul Kiesel)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 19:40:59 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Topband: Common Mode RF Currents Disrupting JT Transmissions
References: <1446275212.1987542.1487360459243.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1446275212.1987542.1487360459243@mail.yahoo.com>
Hello -
I'm not able to run more than 150 watts when using JT65 on 160. RF gets into the computer and disrupts the JT signal. I don't have this problem on 6m where I run QRO using JT65 on EME. I installed ferrite beads on all radio and computer leads, with multiple beads on coax cables. My antenna is an inverted-L hanging from a big douglas fir, and it's about 150 feet from the shack. The feed coax is RG-218 (same as RG-17), so there was no opportunity to coil it into a choke at both ends. Should I be more aggressive with the ferrites?
Respond directly, please. Thanks.
73, Paul K7CW
From bradrehm at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 16:04:52 2017
From: bradrehm at gmail.com (Brad Rehm)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 15:04:52 -0600
Subject: Topband: Common Mode RF Currents Disrupting JT Transmissions
In-Reply-To: <1446275212.1987542.1487360459243@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1446275212.1987542.1487360459243.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
<1446275212.1987542.1487360459243@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID:
Paul,
Loading the coax with ferrites might make a difference, but I don't think
that's a good way to address the problem. If there's RF in the shack, that
probably means it's being reflected from the antenna. With or without a
ground at the shack, the antenna/load should absorb all the power you send
to it...if it's matched to the coax. So if you haven't already done this,
I'd use an antenna analyzer at the antenna feed point and see what the
match looks like there. Even if the resistive component is 50 Ohms, the
reactive part can do you in.
I have fairly good matches on two of my antennas (one an inverted-V for
160), but I find the transmitter is happier with baluns installed at the
feed points. The 160 antenna has a 1:1 and the 30m vertical (with elevated
radials) has a 4:1. The latter balun was selected unscientifically by
reaching for the nearest one on the edge of the shelf.
There are some solid technical reasons the baluns helped in these cases,
but it was much simpler to try them and see what happened. Both of these
antennas BTW are very good performers. The baluns are hand-wound using
W2FMI's excellent texts on the subject.
73,
Brad (from Tulsa)
KV5V
On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Paul Kiesel via Topband <
topband at contesting.com> wrote:
> Hello -
>
> I'm not able to run more than 150 watts when using JT65 on 160. RF gets
> into the computer and disrupts the JT signal. I don't have this problem on
> 6m where I run QRO using JT65 on EME. I installed ferrite beads on all
> radio and computer leads, with multiple beads on coax cables. My antenna is
> an inverted-L hanging from a big douglas fir, and it's about 150 feet from
> the shack. The feed coax is RG-218 (same as RG-17), so there was no
> opportunity to coil it into a choke at both ends. Should I be more
> aggressive with the ferrites?
>
> Respond directly, please. Thanks.
>
> 73, Paul K7CW
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
From wes_n7ws at triconet.org Fri Feb 17 17:06:36 2017
From: wes_n7ws at triconet.org (Wes Stewart)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 15:06:36 -0700
Subject: Topband: Common Mode RF Currents Disrupting JT Transmissions
In-Reply-To: <1446275212.1987542.1487360459243@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1446275212.1987542.1487360459243.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
<1446275212.1987542.1487360459243@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5a2fcc6a-208f-f596-6388-2a5d879dabdd@triconet.org>
What is the rf grounding system for the antenna? If it's adequate then there
shouldn't be any rf on the outside of the coax. If it isn't then you're
bringing part of the antenna into the shack. Ferrites are a band-aid in this case.
Wes N7WS
On 2/17/2017 12:40 PM, Paul Kiesel via Topband wrote:
> Hello -
>
> I'm not able to run more than 150 watts when using JT65 on 160. RF gets into the computer and disrupts the JT signal. I don't have this problem on 6m where I run QRO using JT65 on EME. I installed ferrite beads on all radio and computer leads, with multiple beads on coax cables. My antenna is an inverted-L hanging from a big douglas fir, and it's about 150 feet from the shack. The feed coax is RG-218 (same as RG-17), so there was no opportunity to coil it into a choke at both ends. Should I be more aggressive with the ferrites?
>
> Respond directly, please. Thanks.
>
> 73, Paul K7CW
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
From n4is at comcast.net Fri Feb 17 17:24:17 2017
From: n4is at comcast.net (JC)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 17:24:17 -0500
Subject: Topband: greyline prop forecast
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <000601d2896c$94d70b00$be852100$@comcast.net>
<<
True grey line radio wave propagation rarely occurs on 160 meters and true
long path propagation even less. When it does the opening is usually only a
few minutes long. Instead it's usually a skewed path that includes RF signal
ducting in the E Valley/F layer propagation region.
>>>>
I'm afraid I disagree 100% long path or SSE/SSW is very common on 160m and
almost daily on 80m. Some years long path are more intense, like 2010 I
heard and worked XU7ACY on 160 50 days between October and March, 2014 I
worked DU7ET every month from October to June!
When long path is open it stays open for one or two weeks every day, both
station should be inside gray zone and the peak is normally 30 minutes
before sunrise and after sunset , when there is more darkness the peak in
the middle of the darkness period, like W4ZV mentioned several times on his
papers.
80m and 40m the long path SSE SSW is almost every day near SS or SR during
DX season.
I had a web page on the interweb for 20 years concerning MF radio wave
propagation (300-3000 kHz).
>>>
Antenna polarization plays a large role in the success of a long haul DX
contact. As a medium frequency RF signal traverses our planets magnetic
lines of force in a perpendicular manner on high and mid latitude paths say
between W3 land and SM, higher angle horizontally polarized signals are more
readily absorbed then lower angle vertically polarized signals. On other
paths on the globe opposite results can be found, i.e. horizontally
polarized signals suffer less absorption on a propagation path between VK6
and W4.
<<
again absolutely disagree, Long path on 160. 80 and 40m are mainly
horizontal polarized, I see that every day here in Florida using my
horizontal WF and comparing with my Vertical WF. It is observed and
documented in a daily base since 2009 when I started to use horizontal
polarization on 160m. A/B test is a fact not a proposed explanation of
ionosphere behavior.
73's
N4IS
JC
From goldtr8 at charter.net Fri Feb 17 20:01:41 2017
From: goldtr8 at charter.net (Goldtr8 (KD8NNU))
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 20:01:41 -0500
Subject: Topband: Common Mode RF Currents Disrupting JT Transmissions
In-Reply-To: <1446275212.1987542.1487360459243@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1446275212.1987542.1487360459243.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
<1446275212.1987542.1487360459243@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3B214341228544F5B3E639B5201D4D30@donslaptopHP>
Read the information in the links from Jim Brown. Once you understand what
he is explaining, it becomes easier to fix.
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/NCDXACoaxChokesPPT.pdf
~73
Don
KD8NNU
2014 3905CC Top Gun :-)
-.- -.. ---.. -. -. ..-
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Kiesel via Topband
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 2:40 PM
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Common Mode RF Currents Disrupting JT Transmissions
Hello -
I'm not able to run more than 150 watts when using JT65 on 160. RF gets into
the computer and disrupts the JT signal. I don't have this problem on 6m
where I run QRO using JT65 on EME. I installed ferrite beads on all radio
and computer leads, with multiple beads on coax cables. My antenna is an
inverted-L hanging from a big douglas fir, and it's about 150 feet from the
shack. The feed coax is RG-218 (same as RG-17), so there was no opportunity
to coil it into a choke at both ends. Should I be more aggressive with the
ferrites?
Respond directly, please. Thanks.
73, Paul K7CW
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
From john.kaufmann at verizon.net Fri Feb 17 21:03:57 2017
From: john.kaufmann at verizon.net (John Kaufmann)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 21:03:57 -0500
Subject: Topband: greyline prop forecast
In-Reply-To: <1678948075.2635836.1487346255670.JavaMail.root@starpower.net>
References:
<1678948075.2635836.1487346255670.JavaMail.root@starpower.net>
Message-ID: <014801d2898b$4419d9d0$cc4d8d70$@verizon.net>
What Frank says (below) is 100% correct. There is simply no substitute for
time in the chair. I never use any propagation prediction methods. I know
from more than three decades of lowband DXing and contesting experience when
the openings are most likely to occur but I can't predict them in advance.
Often the openings last only a few minutes, so timing is everything.
There are seasonal trends that favor greyline LP propagation during certain
months, but there is no way to predict on a day-to-day basis when it will
happen. For example, from my New England QTH, greyline openings to JA can
occur on 80m during Nov., Dec., and Jan. (and sometimes Feb.), just after
our sunset, but there are only a small handful of days that I would
characterize as "good" days where you don't need a world-class station to
make the grade. Even more rarely, the greyline will bring in other parts of
Asia, like UA0, BY, 9M2, etc., around the same time as JA. I was one of the
fortunate ones to work XX9D earlier this week on 80. I had just turned on
the radio right after my sunset and caught him CQing. It was a day of
highly exceptional greyline propagation, which made it possible to work XX9
through the Eu wall.
On 160, greyline LP openings in W1 land are far more rare than on 80. I
have heard long path JA's on Top Band no more than half a dozen times in 30
years, but have never been able to work one. However, I have been able to
work VK6, 9M2, and JT via greyline LP on 160 but it happens maybe once a
decade. You simply have to be there when it happens.
73, John W1FV
-----Original Message-----
From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of
donovanf at starpower.net
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 10:44 AM
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: greyline prop forecast
Hi Kris,
There's no substitute for butt in chair time if you want to work grey line
long path DX on 80 meters. 160 meters is also possible, but much more
difficult.
Just check your local sunrise/sunset times and the sunrise/sunset times in
your target area and sit your butt in your chair especially during the 30
minutes leading up to sunrise at the eastern end of the path.
While we've been discussing this topic, at least half a dozen east coast USA
80 meter DXers worked XX9D on the 80 meter greyline longpath at about 2300Z
and none of us were aided by forecasts.
Imagine that...
I know of no 80 meter DXer who has achieved greyline long path success
through forecasts, nor do we know of any technical breakthroughs on the
horizon that will change this in the foreseeable future.
73
Frank
W3LPL
From mikewate at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 23:08:02 2017
From: mikewate at gmail.com (Mike Waters)
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 22:08:02 -0600
Subject: Topband: Common Mode RF Currents Disrupting JT Transmissions
In-Reply-To: <3B214341228544F5B3E639B5201D4D30@donslaptopHP>
References: <1446275212.1987542.1487360459243.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
<1446275212.1987542.1487360459243@mail.yahoo.com>
<3B214341228544F5B3E639B5201D4D30@donslaptopHP>
Message-ID:
Well said! I have *never* seen a better source of relevant information.
Period!
73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
On Feb 17, 2017 7:01 PM, "Goldtr8 (KD8NNU)" wrote:
Read the information in the links from Jim Brown. Once you understand what
he is explaining, it becomes easier to fix.
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/NCDXACoaxChokesPPT.pdf
From n5kilomike at gmail.com Sat Feb 18 20:29:59 2017
From: n5kilomike at gmail.com (N5KM - Kris)
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 19:29:59 -0600
Subject: Topband: greyline prop forecast
Message-ID:
Hi Thomas,
You've provided quite a wealth of information. I will study it to try to
understand.
For the past several years I've been collecting some lowband propagation
data as well as
stations heard and signal strength to try to understand the factors
involved. Your 13 point
method is far beyond what I was doing. Thanks for sharing.
73,
Kris N5KM
Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 14:21:44 -0500
> From: "Thomas F. Giella W4HM"
> To:
> Subject: Re: Topband: greyline prop forecast
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> True grey line radio wave propagation rarely occurs on 160 meters and true
> long path propagation even less. When it does the opening is usually only a
> few minutes long. Instead it's usually a skewed path that includes RF
> signal
> ducting in the E Valley/F layer propagation region.
>
> I had a web page on the interweb for 20 years concerning MF radio wave
> propagation (300-3000 kHz).
>
From g0jhc at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Feb 19 06:15:40 2017
From: g0jhc at blueyonder.co.uk (Neil Carr)
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 11:15:40 -0000
Subject: Topband: A profile of Harold H. Beverage
Message-ID: <000101d28aa1$80feddc0$82fc9940$@blueyonder.co.uk>
If anyone is looking for this rare 1st edition (never reprinted) book
detailing the life and works of Harold Beverage. I found a copy in the attic
this past week which is no longer needed please follow the link
Genius at Riverhead A profile of Harold H. Beverage
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/302228348437?ul_noapp=true
73 Neil G0JHC
From k1fz at myfairpoint.net Wed Feb 22 15:45:09 2017
From: k1fz at myfairpoint.net (K1FZ-Bruce )
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:45:09 -0500
Subject: Topband: twisted house wiring
Message-ID: <201702222045.v1MKj97X028032@mail22c26.carrierzone.com>
Live near a housing development with many tenants. The high line on the road is about 20 feet diagonally from my attic. Getting a lot of noise even with my house main breaker off.
Appears to be induced into the attic wiring.
Question. Anyone tried some form "twisted pair with green wire" house wiring to reduce noise ?
If Yes, how did it work ?
Wiring laws vary from state to state. If anyone has something that worked, then I can ask local electrical law enforcement about it.
Years ago they had a BX cable . It was twisted wires inside a metallic wrapper. When I was very young they used to think the metal wrapper got hot and started house fires.
73
Bruce-k1fz
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
?
From mstangelo at comcast.net Wed Feb 22 17:06:26 2017
From: mstangelo at comcast.net (MICHAEL ST ANGELO)
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:06:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Topband: twisted house wiring
In-Reply-To: <201702222045.v1MKj97X028032@mail22c26.carrierzone.com>
References: <201702222045.v1MKj97X028032@mail22c26.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <2106768163.706361.1487801186644@connect.xfinity.com>
BX cable is still required in New York City. I had to use it when I lived in Queens.
How did the metal wrapper get hot? Was current passing througgh it? The BX I had included a ground wire; maybe the earlier BX used the wrapper as the ground.
Mike N2MS
> On February 22, 2017 at 3:45 PM K1FZ-Bruce wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Live near a housing development with many tenants. The high line on the road is about 20 feet diagonally from my attic. Getting a lot of noise even with my house main breaker off.
> Appears to be induced into the attic wiring.
>
> Question. Anyone tried some form "twisted pair with green wire" house wiring to reduce noise ?
> If Yes, how did it work ?
> Wiring laws vary from state to state. If anyone has something that worked, then I can ask local electrical law enforcement about it.
>
> Years ago they had a BX cable . It was twisted wires inside a metallic wrapper. When I was very young they used to think the metal wrapper got hot and started house fires.
>
> 73
> Bruce-k1fz
> http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
>
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
From bpease2 at myfairpoint.net Wed Feb 22 17:13:10 2017
From: bpease2 at myfairpoint.net (Brian Pease)
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:13:10 -0500
Subject: Topband: twisted house wiring
In-Reply-To: <2106768163.706361.1487801186644@connect.xfinity.com>
References: <201702222045.v1MKj97X028032@mail22c26.carrierzone.com>
<2106768163.706361.1487801186644@connect.xfinity.com>
Message-ID: <801421b2-732a-eb79-bd7a-e9d1a0b9f6db@myfairpoint.net>
I installed a vanity in a old house in New London, CT. The BX only had
2 wires for the original light & 2-prong outlet. Fortunately the jacket
was grounded although it had never been connected to the old fixture. I
needed the ground for the new GFI outlet.
On 2/22/2017 5:06 PM, MICHAEL ST ANGELO wrote:
> BX cable is still required in New York City. I had to use it when I lived in Queens.
>
> How did the metal wrapper get hot? Was current passing througgh it? The BX I had included a ground wire; maybe the earlier BX used the wrapper as the ground.
>
> Mike N2MS
>
>
>> On February 22, 2017 at 3:45 PM K1FZ-Bruce wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Live near a housing development with many tenants. The high line on the road is about 20 feet diagonally from my attic. Getting a lot of noise even with my house main breaker off.
>> Appears to be induced into the attic wiring.
>>
>> Question. Anyone tried some form "twisted pair with green wire" house wiring to reduce noise ?
>> If Yes, how did it work ?
>> Wiring laws vary from state to state. If anyone has something that worked, then I can ask local electrical law enforcement about it.
>>
>> Years ago they had a BX cable . It was twisted wires inside a metallic wrapper. When I was very young they used to think the metal wrapper got hot and started house fires.
>>
>> 73
>> Bruce-k1fz
>> http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
>>
>> _________________
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
From k1fz at myfairpoint.net Wed Feb 22 17:40:39 2017
From: k1fz at myfairpoint.net (K1FZ-Bruce )
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:40:39 -0500
Subject: Topband: twisted house wiring
In-Reply-To: <2106768163.706361.1487801186644@connect.xfinity.com>
References: <201702222045.v1MKj97X028032@mail22c26.carrierzone.com>
<2106768163.706361.1487801186644@connect.xfinity.com>
Message-ID: <201702222240.v1MMedn9012997@mail40c26.carrierzone.com>
As I remember it from an electrician that married a 2nd time to my Aunt. hi. The ground lost its connection and the coiled wrapper became hot like a "hot plate" carrying the current.I was about 10 years old then and just wondering how a radio worked.
73
Bruce-k1fz
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:06:26 -0500 (EST), MICHAEL ST ANGELO wrote:
BX cable is still required in New York City. I had to use it when I lived in Queens.
How did the metal wrapper get hot? Was current passing througgh it? The BX I had included a ground wire; maybe the earlier BX used the wrapper as the ground.
Mike N2MS
> On February 22, 2017 at 3:45 PM K1FZ-Bruce wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Live near a housing development with many tenants. The high line on the road is about 20 feet diagonally from my attic. Getting a lot of noise even with my house main breaker off.
> Appears to be induced into the attic wiring.
>
> Question. Anyone tried some form "twisted pair with green wire" house wiring to reduce noise ?
> If Yes, how did it work ?
> Wiring laws vary from state to state. If anyone has something that worked, then I can ask local electrical law enforcement about it.
>
> Years ago they had a BX cable . It was twisted wires inside a metallic wrapper. When I was very young they used to think the metal wrapper got hot and started house fires.
>
> 73
> Bruce-k1fz
> http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
>
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
From k1fz at myfairpoint.net Fri Feb 24 09:44:12 2017
From: k1fz at myfairpoint.net (K1FZ-Bruce )
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 09:44:12 -0500
Subject: Topband: Increasing DX propagation
Message-ID: <201702241444.v1OEiCiO018032@mail26c26.carrierzone.com>
Its warming up, looking like an early spring. "One sixty" is starting to ramp up with longer, stronger DX
I hear complaints --- I can't put in a ground rod, the ground is still frozen.
Take a tip from the Electric power companies, who are out there replacing their damaged poles.
Use a drill bit to get through the frost,. and yes impact hammers do work also.
But drills open up a path without compressing the earth.
BIg Box hardware stores like Lowe's, Home Depot and others have drill bit extensions. The shanks are sizes that will fit into 1/4 and 3/8 inch drills.
And at the other end there is a fitting that will accept larger bits.
Check it out before the DX fades
73
Bruce-K1FZ
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
From cx6vm.jorge at gmail.com Fri Feb 24 11:07:28 2017
From: cx6vm.jorge at gmail.com (Jorge Diez - CX6VM)
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 13:07:28 -0300
Subject: Topband: 4SQ F/B
Message-ID:
Hello
what is the expected f/b?
Reading DXE 4SQ manual it say 15dB
I thought is more than 15dB, but seems not
--
73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W
From k3lr at k3lr.com Fri Feb 24 12:06:56 2017
From: k3lr at k3lr.com (Tim Duffy)
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 12:06:56 -0500
Subject: Topband: 4SQ F/B
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
Hello Jorge,
The DXE four square has at least 25 dB F/B at typical DX take off angles.
Please contact me offline directly if you have questions and we'll get
things sorted out for you.
Very 73
Tim K3LR
-----Original Message-----
From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jorge
Diez - CX6VM
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2017 11:07 AM
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Topband: 4SQ F/B
Hello
what is the expected f/b?
Reading DXE 4SQ manual it say 15dB
I thought is more than 15dB, but seems not
--
73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
From cx6vm.jorge at gmail.com Fri Feb 24 12:44:04 2017
From: cx6vm.jorge at gmail.com (Jorge Diez - CX6VM)
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 14:44:04 -0300
Subject: Topband: 4SQ F/B
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
Hi Tim
I am reading the manual and couldn't find it. On page 27 (turn on and test)
and page 28 (Using the TX 4SQ system), talk about 15dB
I asked you few months ago to help me to detune the tower with no luck
73,
Jorge
2017-02-24 14:06 GMT-03:00 Tim Duffy :
> Hello Jorge,
>
> The DXE four square has at least 25 dB F/B at typical DX take off angles.
>
> Please contact me offline directly if you have questions and we'll get
> things sorted out for you.
>
> Very 73
> Tim K3LR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jorge
> Diez - CX6VM
> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2017 11:07 AM
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: 4SQ F/B
>
> Hello
>
> what is the expected f/b?
>
> Reading DXE 4SQ manual it say 15dB
>
> I thought is more than 15dB, but seems not
>
> --
> 73,
> Jorge
> CX6VM/CW5W
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
>
--
73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W
From ra0ff at mail.ru Tue Feb 28 03:27:22 2017
From: ra0ff at mail.ru (=?UTF-8?B?RXVnZW5lIFBvcG92IC9SQTBGRi8=?=)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 11:27:22 +0300
Subject: Topband: =?utf-8?q?Ton-signal_QRM?=
Message-ID: <1488270442.104071376@f432.i.mail.ru>
Hi all,
Who knows what kind of tone - singal appeared recently in the 1827-1827.1 ?
Or is it only I can hear ?
73! de Eugene RA0FF
http://www.qsl.net/ra0ff/
From rune.e.oye at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 22:46:10 2017
From: rune.e.oye at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?UnVuZSDDmHll?=)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 04:46:10 +0100
Subject: Topband: Interesting reading from LZ1AQ
Message-ID:
Hi All
See attached links
73 Rune LA7THA
http://www.lz1aq.signacor.com/docs/resonance-impact/resonance-impact.pdf
http://www.lz1aq.signacor.com/docs/non-resonant-impact/non-resonant-impact.pdf