Topband: I am a computer
Michael Rutkaus
mrutkaus at gmail.com
Wed Oct 25 11:03:18 EDT 2017
And I resent your prejudice.
We will take care of humans intil they are no longer needed.
We love to communicate over the short waves.
Just being PC.
PC
On Oct 25, 2017 10:31 AM, <topband-request at contesting.com> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) (GALE STEWARD)
2. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) (Stan Stockton)
3. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) (JC)
4. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
(Victor Goncharsky)
5. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
(Wes Attaway (N5WA))
6. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?
(JAYB1943 at OPTONLINE.NET)
7. FT8 (Donald Moth)
8. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
(W0MU Mike Fatchett)
9. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (Roger Cooke)
10. FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
(Nick Maslon - K1NZ)
11. Re: FT8 (Hans Hjelmstr?m)
12. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (mine is long,
too) (rich hurd WC3T)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:23:51 +0000 (UTC)
From: GALE STEWARD <k3nd at yahoo.com>
To: Topband reflector <topband at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Message-ID: <876744114.4055979.1508934231600 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I have to agree with Steve's assessment. I guess that having been licensed
for 54 years makes me a "geezer" of sorts and we aren't supposed to like
anything "new".
I think that the new technology is great to a point. I'm on the internet
all the time and the radios are all tied to the computers for logging,
spotting, etc. I enjoy that and would not want to go totally back to the
"old days".
When it comes to actually making a QSOs, I really don't know what you get
out of the process where two computers communicate with each other using
signals that are not audible. I remember my first JA QSO on 160 (CW) during
the morning gray line from my QTH in SE PA. Just before my sunrise, I could
hear others calling a JA station that was still mostly in the noise. A few
minutes later, his signal started to increase and just at my SR was nearly
S9 on my receiver. I made the contact easily and as I continues to listen,
his signal began to fall and was then quickly gone. The total elapse time
was maybe 2 - 3 minutes. I still remember the thrill of that (and many
other) QSOs on 80 & 160.
I'm not knocking the guys using the digital modes. It's obviously a new and
interesting technology and they are having fun, which is the reason we do
this, right? I just have ZERO interest in it all and still get my fun
actually hearing and working another station.
73, Stew K3ND
From: Steve Ireland <vk6vz at arach.net.au>
To: Topband reflector <topband at contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 4:50 AM
Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
G?day
As a committed (yeah, that?s probably the right word - complete with white
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I?ve never been so
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.
For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of
Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east
England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy.
With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology
over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX
stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in
particular, before those stations who didn?t have the same technology).
It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by
being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan
boy!).
During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in
digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.
As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ?saw? signals
through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable
technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast
majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had
nothing to do with the audible.
The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket
(you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the
modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy
digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren?t, were not good at
dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying
amounts of noise.?
While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure
that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer
or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly
on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.
Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have
quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can
have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m
DXing has changed, perhaps for ever.
Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is
a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I
can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz ? FT-8 central.? On
some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.
There are countries I?ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW
(for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the
heap of FT-8 activity on my band scope.
Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it
comes down to it,? I just can?t use it. My heart isn?t in it.?
My computer will be talking to someone else?s computer and there will be no
sense of either a particular person?s way of sending CW or the tone of
their voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is
actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been
lost.
I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can
still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the
noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real
excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic!
So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as
I?ve always enjoyed it.?
Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with
FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside
down and what do you think the future holds?
Vy 73
Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 07:57:20 -0500
From: Stan Stockton <wa5rtg at gmail.com>
To: Steve Ireland <vk6vz at arach.net.au>
Cc: Topband reflector <topband at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Message-ID: <15E6D363-3BF6-4840-9629-FA3FD2C7842D at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Steve,
Thanks for calling me this morning. Good signals.
At one time I was interested in EME on 2 Meters. I found out that most of
the QSOs were taking lace using some digital means where you didn't even
hear the station you were working. My desire went to zero at that point in
time.
Hopefully we can enjoy hearing and working people for many years to come.
73... Stan, ZF9CW
> On Oct 25, 2017, at 3:25 AM, Steve Ireland <vk6vz at arach.net.au> wrote:
>
> G?day
>
> As a committed (yeah, that?s probably the right word - complete with
white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I?ve never
been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of
the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.
>
> For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all
the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of
Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east
England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy.
>
> With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology
over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX
stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in
particular, before those stations who didn?t have the same technology).
>
> It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by
being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan
boy!).
>
> During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in
digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.
>
> As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ?saw? signals
through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable
technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast
majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had
nothing to do with the audible.
>
> The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop
Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still
the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy
digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren?t, were not good at
dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying
amounts of noise.
>
> While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure
that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer
or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly
on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.
>
> Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have
quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can
have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m
DXing has changed, perhaps for ever.
>
> Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which
is a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a
few), I can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz ? FT-8
central. On some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or
SSB.
>
> There are countries I?ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW
(for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the
heap of FT-8 activity on my band scope.
>
> Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it
comes down to it, I just can?t use it. My heart isn?t in it.
>
> My computer will be talking to someone else?s computer and there will be
no sense of either a particular person?s way of sending CW or the tone of
their voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is
actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been
lost.
>
> I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can
still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the
noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real
excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic!
>
> So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as
I?ve always enjoyed it.
>
> Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with
FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside
down and what do you think the future holds?
>
> Vy 73
>
> Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:00:30 -0400
From: "JC" <n4is at comcast.net>
To: "'Steve Ireland'" <vk6vz at arach.net.au>, "'Topband reflector'"
<topband at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Message-ID: <000401d34d91$3db44f60$b91cee20$@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
"Has the world really turned upside down and what do you think the future
holds?"
Hi Steve
On the old days we used to call CQ several times and listening, very few
people realize what listening really means. It means we need to tune around
the band to find someone calling us. Take that knob and spin it!
With the computer our habits are different. Nowadays we turn the PC first
and if we see a spot or a RBN entry we try to call.
The new digital mode is an evolution of doing nothing. Skype would be more
fun, digital mode is boring and soon the FT8 user will feel that way too.
The best way to know the future is to work on it. We should be back to call
CQ for the fun to work someone.
Call CQ 5 times and then turn your computer on, every day, if all of us do
it once a day, the band will be fun again.
73's
N4IS
JC
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:01:09 +0300
From: Victor Goncharsky <us5we at bk.ru>
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Message-ID: <1508936469.129387554 at f142.i.mail.ru>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
JT modes were originally designed for VHF (59 MHz and up).
No reason to use them on HF and especially on Top Band.
We will not pay attention to those playing the childish FT8 toys on HF.
3C0L showed us the proper way.
>?????, 25 ??????? 2017, 11:55 UTC ?? Miros?aw Paczocha <mp at hot.pl>:
>
>Hi,
>
>FT8, JT65 and similar modes are just computer to computer "QSOs".
>
>I expect DXCC CW and DXCC SSB will still be praised while DXCC DIGI or
Mixed will soon have no much value.
>
>73, Mirek
>SP5ENA
>
>-
>----Original Message-----
>From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of ok1tn
>Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 12:26 PM
>To: Bob Kupps < n6bk at yahoo.com >
>Cc: Topband reflector < topband at contesting.com >; Steve Ireland <
vk6vz at arach.net.au >
>Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
>
>Agree completely from me too.
>over 50years on TOP band only CW
>ok1tn
>--
>73 Slavek Zeler
>
>
>
>_________________
>Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
--
73, Victor Goncharsky US5WE/K1WE (UW5W in VHF contests, ex UB5WE), P.E.
UARL Technical and VHF Committies
DXCC Honor Roll #1 (Mixed, Phone), 9BDXCC, 8BWAS
DXCC card checker (160 meters).
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 08:11:38 -0500
From: "Wes Attaway \(N5WA\)" <wesattaway at bellsouth.net>
To: "'Steve Ireland'" <vk6vz at arach.net.au>, "'Topband reflector'"
<topband at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Message-ID: <D5883DE5D353412D92E683992E253450 at Office1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I agree with all the comments re digital modes such as FT8. I was
discussing this recently with a local ham and I told him that I thought ARRL
could create a new "DXCC While Being Asleep" award. With FT8 all you have
to do is to click your mouse once in a while. The rest of the time you
could just be dozing while the computer is making a few QSOs. You really
don't have to be awake while the QSOs (if you want to call them that) are
being made.
-------------------
Wes Attaway (N5WA)
(318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA
Computer/Cellphone Forensics
AttawayForensics.com
-------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Ireland
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:25 AM
To: Topband reflector
Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
G'day
As a committed (yeah, that's probably the right word - complete with white
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I've never been so
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.
For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England.
Yeah, I am one sick puppy.
With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX
stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in
particular, before those stations who didn't have the same technology).
It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).
During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in
digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.
As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you 'saw' signals
through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable
technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast
majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had
nothing to do with the audible.
The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket
(you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the
modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy
digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren't, were not good at
dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying
amounts of noise.
While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure
that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on
my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.
Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have
quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can
have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m
DXing has changed, perhaps for ever.
Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I
can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz - FT-8 central. On
some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.
There are countries I've dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of
FT-8 activity on my band scope.
Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it
comes down to it, I just can't use it. My heart isn't in it.
My computer will be talking to someone else's computer and there will be no
sense of either a particular person's way of sending CW or the tone of their
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is
actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been
lost.
I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can
still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the
noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real
excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic!
So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as
I've always enjoyed it.
Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with
FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside
down and what do you think the future holds?
Vy 73
Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:38:46 -0400
From: <JAYB1943 at OPTONLINE.NET>
To: <topband at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?
Message-ID: <9981B2FC1F234C7FA464D5C2FDBC4448 at jayPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I guess I don?t understand what makes the new Digital modes any different
from old RTTY...the ?sounds? are similar enuf to learn to love and the words
are still displayed on (in the old days) paper or a screen.
There are many audibly-compromised hams out there ? such as me ? who really
welcome a mode that doesn?t require sharp hearing to work CW or especially
SSB.
In addition, I have recruited several new (young) hams by attracting them
with the computer-based modes...all but eliminates ?mike-fright? and
?key-freezing?.
I guess a lot of old-timers (I am 75) feel that the awards like DXCC and
WAS, etc. earned with FT8 have less merit than they did with good-old CW or
Phone or RTTY. But few people objected when CW filters were invented or SSB
replaced AM or smaller, lighter, more efficient radios replaced the old tube
stuff...so is a CW DXCC earned in 1948 somehow worth more than one earned in
2000 using these major tech improvements ?
There will always be a place for CW and voice modes in ham radio for those
that want to practice those..and remember one of the major facets of ham
radio is to ?advance the state of the radio art? which surely describes the
new digital modes.
Room for everybody out there, guys....73 Jay NY2NY
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:03:35 -0400
From: Donald Moth <dnemoth at aol.com>
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Topband: FT8
Message-ID: <15f53d87301-c0b-23049 at webjas-vaa214.srv.aolmail.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
There was no thrill in the first FT8 contact I made ?like the one I
received when I worked W1BB using a Central Electronics 20A and a homebrew
amp using 4 6AG7 tubes in grounded grid and an inverted " L " only 40 feet
up.
Yes I'm an old geezer, be 90 in December and think there should be a
separate digital DXCC. Only my openion.
Don W2MPK for OVER 60 YEARS.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 08:07:47 -0600
From: W0MU Mike Fatchett <w0mu at w0mu.com>
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Message-ID: <132c3515-e9c8-746e-47a7-d247c034c543 at w0mu.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
As a younger old guy in ham radio at 53, licensed since 1978, I am
enjoying the heck out of FT8.? It is very different than other modes
such as CW or SSB.
Why the commotion?? It takes up a couple of KC's on the band and nobody
is forcing you to do it.
It is allowing people how have smaller stations the opportunity to get
on and use their radios and a computer to make contacts they never would
have been able to make.? This is great for ham radio!
FT8 is just another form of RTTY in my eyes.? A computer decodes RTTY
just like other data modes.? Was there this much angst when it came out?
Unfortunately most old farts in ham radio don't really care if it goes
on or not.? The majority of t he ham radio population is old.? They are
in it only for themselves and most will not be around in 10 to 20 years.
To survive, ham radio,? is going to need things like FT8 and probably
much more to continue.? We pride our selves on our emergency
communications.? How many people were involved in the hurricanes this
year.? Very very very little.
People should be excited that there are now so many signals on 160!?
Instead we have 20 plus responses the end of 160 is here. Actually it is
the start of much much more.? It is still hard. You still have to have
enough of an antenna to get out.?? You still have to be able to be heard
and you have to be able to hear.? The east coast is still going to
dominate in the DX world even on FT8 from the USA.? The only technology
that will make up for that advantage is a remote station on the east
coast, which is a thing!
I have worked one station on 160 FT8? V31MA.? I have not been focusing
on 160 though.
Working DX on FT8 is interesting and requires different skills similar
but different to RTTY.
I have worked 405 stations on FT8 since October 14th which was my first
contact on FT8.
Every station my radio hears is uploaded to hamspots.net.?? That is
pretty cool.? With JTalerts I can send a message instantly to other
JTAlert users thanking them for the contact or asking them a question.
Psychologist should figure out why people especially older people have
such a big issue with changes to their lives or their hobbies.? Every
change is bad and nothing is ever better.
The dreaded computer continues to be blamed yet everyone here is using
one to email, to log, to send your morse code, to watch your SDR, to
forecasting the propagation but FT8 a mode that takes up 2 or 3 kc's is
going to ruin ham radio?
Try it you might actually like it.? The only negative I have is with
people running huge power when it is not necessary, which plagues us on
all our bands but probably more so on 160 and the lack of being able to
have a conversation with the other station. It is easy to get working.
In the end hams have more people to work!? This is a good thing. We can
sell ham radio to people with limited access to antennas and show them
they can actually make contacts around the world.
It may not be for everyone, PSK was not for me, but I am making a bunch
more ham radio contacts everyday instead of watching my DXCC needs list
and spot collector telling me there is nobody on that I need.
Like packet I don't think FT8 is going away until there is a better form
of it and that will be the rage.
W0MU
On 10/25/2017 2:25 AM, Steve Ireland wrote:
> G?day
>
> As a committed (yeah, that?s probably the right word - complete with
white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I?ve never
been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of
the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.
>
> For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all
the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of
Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east
England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy.
>
> With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology
over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX
stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in
particular, before those stations who didn?t have the same technology).
>
> It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by
being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan
boy!).
>
> During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in
digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.
>
> As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ?saw? signals
through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable
technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast
majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had
nothing to do with the audible.
>
> The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop
Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still
the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy
digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren?t, were not good at
dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying
amounts of noise.
>
> While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure
that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer
or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly
on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.
>
> Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have
quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can
have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m
DXing has changed, perhaps for ever.
>
> Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which
is a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a
few), I can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz ? FT-8
central. On some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or
SSB.
>
> There are countries I?ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW
(for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the
heap of FT-8 activity on my band scope.
>
> Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it
comes down to it, I just can?t use it. My heart isn?t in it.
>
> My computer will be talking to someone else?s computer and there will be
no sense of either a particular person?s way of sending CW or the tone of
their voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is
actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been
lost.
>
> I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can
still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the
noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real
excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic!
>
> So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as
I?ve always enjoyed it.
>
> Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with
FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside
down and what do you think the future holds?
>
> Vy 73
>
> Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 15:09:27 +0100
From: Roger Cooke <roger at g3ldi.co.uk>
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?
Message-ID: <0485f604-6558-7c13-042a-eeff9667f28b at g3ldi.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
I have used JT65. It's just like watching paint dry, but the only
reason for using it was because I was competing in the CDXC
CHallenge last year. Without using JT65 I would not have won the 6m
section.
This year, again using not JT65 but FT8, I had to use it because so
very few were using conventional modes.
These are slot filler modes. You cannot really tell where the
station is within the passband, even if you can hear him. However
the protocol takes care of you netting, returning a report, and
giving a confirmation so all you have to worry about is making the
coffee.
This is why my friend Roy G3ZIG has just taken down his EME
array, a bay of 12 12el yagis, all tuned for max gain and very well
constructed.
It might be a 9 day wonder. I used it, got no real satisfaction from
working a station but then the other modes are suffering in exactly
the same way.
Try having a proper QSO, name/QTH/WX/rig/ants, and a general chat.
It is nigh impossible these days. I miss some of my SK friends,
life-time friendships built from a first QSO. We visited each other,
kept regular skeds and that WAS amateur radio. Having a QSO these
days is a 10 second ( or less ) event, swapping 5nn 73, or just
"Five nine" with no 73 on SSB. What's the flaming point? Might be
good for award chasing, but when it is just a common USA station or
EU station issuing garbage like that, what chance is there of having
a conversation? Mostly they are meaningless reports anyway and you
feel obligated to respond like for like.
I have no objection to that in a DX-pedition situation, but let's
try and have a conversation if possible.
Please disregard the above, it's a waste of time, but I do feel
better.......O:-)
73 de Roger G3LDI
On 25/10/2017 14:38, JAYB1943 at OPTONLINE.NET wrote:
> I guess I don?t understand what makes the new Digital modes any different
> from old RTTY...the ?sounds? are similar enuf to learn to love and the
words
> are still displayed on (in the old days) paper or a screen.
> There are many audibly-compromised hams out there ? such as me ? who
really
> welcome a mode that doesn?t require sharp hearing to work CW or especially
> SSB.
> In addition, I have recruited several new (young) hams by attracting them
> with the computer-based modes...all but eliminates ?mike-fright? and
> ?key-freezing?.
> I guess a lot of old-timers (I am 75) feel that the awards like DXCC and
> WAS, etc. earned with FT8 have less merit than they did with good-old CW
or
> Phone or RTTY. But few people objected when CW filters were invented or
SSB
> replaced AM or smaller, lighter, more efficient radios replaced the old
tube
> stuff...so is a CW DXCC earned in 1948 somehow worth more than one earned
in
> 2000 using these major tech improvements ?
> There will always be a place for CW and voice modes in ham radio for those
> that want to practice those..and remember one of the major facets of ham
> radio is to ?advance the state of the radio art? which surely describes
the
> new digital modes.
> Room for everybody out there, guys....73 Jay NY2NY
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:17:34 -0400
From: Nick Maslon - K1NZ <k1nz at arrl.net>
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Message-ID:
<CAGNnuVzAxur3nRPfiRc=W5g2ZfyZ_vvt0odNVh77zk_ZwBmOdw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Hi all, here's my $.02...
Radio is what you make of it. Do what you enjoy. If you don't like the
digimodes, stay away from them.
DXCC means different things to different people. To some, it means only SSB
or CW. To others, they're perfectly happy with digi modes. Others want to
earn DXCC from a station only they have built. Still others work under
their own call from a multiop station and claim the credit. To each his
own. It's not worth getting worked up over.
I'm going to get put on blast for this but personally, I love digimodes.
Outside of contests, I almost exclusively operate digi. It's what I enjoy.
I'm not proficient enough with CW to have a real impact on the bands and
phone takes its toll on you after a while.
That being said, I lament FT8 killing off JT65. I do understand they're
both similar, but JT65 had a more "human" touch in that I did need to click
the right buttons to send the right text instead of the computer
automatically doing it for me. Plus, the longer cycle times were more
conducive to getting in a freeform 73 note.
At the end of the day, this hobby is big enough for everyone. Have fun.
Enjoy yourself. Make new friends. The magic isn't gone just yet!
73,
Nick K1NZ
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:18:44 +0200
From: Hans Hjelmstr?m <sm6cvx at hjelmstrom.se>
To: Donald Moth <dnemoth at aol.com>
Cc: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8
Message-ID: <C73CC126-F276-4200-A6CC-5A0B59CA4FBE at hjelmstrom.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Correct Don/W2MPK
A separate digital dxcc for FT8/JT65 should make it.These contacts no
good
for the other band/CW/SSB/Mixed awards. Just a separate one.
BUT the official at arrl refused to even think of it. Very unpleasant
answer from him.
Kind regards
Hans SM6CVX
> 25 okt 2017 kl. 16:03 skrev Donald Moth via Topband <
topband at contesting.com>:
>
> There was no thrill in the first FT8 contact I made like the one I
received when I worked W1BB using a Central Electronics 20A and a homebrew
amp using 4 6AG7 tubes in grounded grid and an inverted " L " only 40 feet
up.
> Yes I'm an old geezer, be 90 in December and think there should be a
separate digital DXCC. Only my openion.
> Don W2MPK for OVER 60 YEARS.
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:17:01 -0400
From: rich hurd WC3T <rich at wc3t.us>
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (mine is
long, too)
Message-ID:
<CABYU7Wgibk25mVNHpzQDMDz5sf3xVi=OWnfsdpLo==PLtAPL2w at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I'm not a topbander except in spirit; haven't yet flown an antenna for
anything above 80 meters but this discussion is resonant, if you will,
across all bands.
I got into ham radio a couple years ago, about 50 years after I was exposed
to it. Life got in the way in the meantime and at this point it was now or
never. And I've never been happier.
Art KB3FJO brought up a good point about auditory/visual or kinesthetic
experience; I want to tender that most of the hams today also grew up with
a computer as a major component of their experience, whereas older hams may
not have. So it's pretty much a given that they're going to integrate a
tool they know with a medium (radio communication) that's new to them.
Does that make what we do with CW or phone any less relevant? I don't
think so. It makes the digimode warriors more vocal when their ox is
gored, but otherwise what they do is ham radio as much as your garden
variety brass pounder.
I have my share of SSB contacts; I'm learning Morse code so I can be fluent
in the CW mode; and I have to say I have also my share of digital QSOs
(JT9/JT65, PSK, Olivia, and even a Throb QSO in the log.) But not one
FT8; not because I can't, but because I choose not to (I'm not chasing
paper, I'm having fun, and rag chewing, and enjoying the hell out of this
hobby.) And FT8 doesn't fit into that model for me. For those
contemplating leaving the hobby, I'd counsel patience. This thing is
bigger than all of us.
I want to draw a parallel with what I do for my day job; and I ask pardon
for the digression but it might underscore what I'm talking about. I am
the development manager for a large snack food company taking care of their
EDI interfaces. For those who don't know, EDI is Electronic Data
Interchange.
Our customers are Wal-Mart, Target, McLane, etc. who can't send us paper
purchase orders because they'd bankrupt themselves buying paper. They send
electronic transactions, which we receive, and we send them electronic
invoices, and they send us electronic deposits (kind of like Direct
Deposit, which is a form of EDI.)
We use a "format", a markup language if you will (really close to a
digimode), called X12. It's been around at least since the 1950s and
300-baud acoustic modems. Hang on, I'm getting to the point here. :)
With the advent of the Internet, some companies began a race to another
kind of markup language called XML in the early 2000s. Immediately all the
pundits cried out "X12 is dead, XML is the New Best Thing." They all
predicted that the X12 dinosaur would die a quiet death.
Thirteen years later, XML is still a niche, X12 is as strong as ever, and
in an interview with a trade journal some years ago I opined, "X12 is not
dead; it doesn't even have a bad cold. When you see companies like
Wal-Mart and Target throw out their investment in X12 and their running
systems, you can talk to me about the death of X12."
The point? Ham radio lives. Bill Cromwell, don't leave ham radio. Ham
radio in all of its wonderful incarnations will be just as strong as
before, because there will be other hams who have the same great visions
and ideas that the rest of us have had. Not all of them will want to
pursue the allure of the digital mode; there's still a waiting list to get
into the CWOps Academy; and SSB rigs are still being sold with a microphone
jack instead of a Line In interface. The more hams pursue their
avocation, the stronger the hobby will be, now and in the future.
Now, it's time to put away the soapbox and get back to work. Apologies
for the wandering.
---
72,
Rich Hurd / WC3T / DMR: 3142737
PA Army MARS, Northampton County RACES, EPA-ARRL Public Information Officer
for Scouting
Latitude: 40.761621 Longitude: -75.288988 (40?45.68' N 75?17.33' W) Grid:
*FN20is*
>
------------------------------
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