Topband: Topband Digest, Vol 178, Issue 25

Wed Oct 25 13:24:49 EDT 2017

Being nearon 60, I too am not really worried about whats becoming of ham radio, infact we are probably well past the sell by dates and we are already on the other side of the fence, with just one foot on terra firma. When its time to go, it all stays behind, all our money, equipment and whatever you may have accumulated, will all stay behind because no baggage is allowed on the other side, nor will we probably care either. Best we can do is enjoy the time left and work that DX when its available any way you can.
73John - M0ELS

Digitally signed mail - John  M0ELS

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.”
George Orwell

    On Wednesday, 25 October 2017, 17:01:02 GMT+1, <topband-request at contesting.com> wrote:  

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: FT8 (Ian_Wade_G3NRW)
  2. FT8, more ... (lmlangenfeld at tds.net)
  3. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) (Dave AA6YQ)
  4. Re: FT8 (W0MU Mike Fatchett)
  5. Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio is more or less
      lost.- Hans Hjelmstr?m (Dick Bingham)
  6. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) (garyk9gs)
  7. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) (Mike Waters)
  8. Re: Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio is more or less
      lost.- Hans Hjelmstr?m (W0MU Mike Fatchett)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:05:38 +0100
From: Ian_Wade_G3NRW <g3nrw-radio at ntlworld.com>
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8
Message-ID: <b8d5bb95-50de-0223-54e4-cdc35833e1a2 at ntlworld.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

I just stumbled across this thread, and I understand many of the 
opinions expressed here.

But one point that I don't think anyone has mentioned: the OP lives in 
the middle of nowhere in Western Australia, where noise problems are 
probably virtually non-existent. In contrast, I live in the south of 
England, where electronic smog from every kind of internet device, tv 
etc etc makes top-band virtually unusable these days. Noise levels are 
S9 at times, even in the early hours of the morning when DX is around. I 
use FT8 because there is a chance it will get through, even if I can't 
hear the signal in the cans.

Like many here I suspect, I'm now well over 70, and have been licensed 
since 1959. I started on top band with home-built tube equipment, and 
enjoyed it for many years. But I also enjoy trying new modes like FT8 
whenever they appear, and will probably always do so.

In my book there's room for everyone with all kinds of interests. We're 
all in this together, and if you don't like the new-fangled whizz-bang 
(silent digital) modes I have no issue with that.

-- 
73
Ian, G3NRW
g3nrw at g3nrw.net

***** Editor: TS-590 Family Resources Page: http://g3nrw.net/TS-590

On 25/10/2017 15:34, Tree wrote:
> Great post Steve - you put into words a concern that I am sure many of us
> share.
>
> First off - as manager of this fine list - let's all be careful and not let
> the discussion get out of hand.  Respect other people's opinion.  This is a
> hot topic for sure and there is not going to be some kind of resolution
> here.  It is kind of a social experiment happening in real time.
>
> For me - the magic of radio happens between the headphones.  I can still
> remember hearing my first echo off the moon - on six meters.  I nearly fell
> out of my chair. Same thing when I found ZS8 CQing away on 160 meters when
> no other signals were being heard.
>
> >From my perspective - there are two areas where the "tones" have taken over
> weak signal.  The first was mentioned already - 2 meter EME.  I have 80
> elements out in the bone pile - hoping to put it up some day - but I have
> to admit that the shift to using tones instead of CW has left me less
> motivated.
>
> The other area is the new 600 Meter band.  This small slice of noisy
> spectrum is predicted to be populated with tones for serious DX work
> instead of CW.  This might drive me to try it - or perhaps I will be there
> on CW - being a dinosaur.
>
> The comparison to RTTY is certainly a fair one - although the new tones are
> much better with weak signals.  RTTY contesting is the biggest growing
> segment by far.  It's only time now until the tones establish themselves
> there as well.
>
> However, any activity is good activity.  The fact we often can tune the
> band and see nothing on the bandscope except some tones is better than not
> seeing anything.  People who don't have good systems for 160 meters are now
> able to make some QSOs and even work a little DX.
>
> Probably the telling thing will be what the choices are by the major DX
> peditions.  If the only way to work a new country is with tones - that
> will either push me to adopt it - or go find something else to do with my
> time and energy.
>
> Tree N6TR
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:09:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: "lmlangenfeld at tds.net" <lmlangenfeld at tds.net>
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Topband: FT8, more ...
Message-ID:
    <1694281519.183751752.1508944184304.JavaMail.zimbra at tds.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I don't think FT8 will necessarily doom ham radio, but it could (and likely will) change the face of DXing for awhile. 

But, to me, the excitement of DXing comes from the necessary element of uncertainty -- when the outcome remains in doubt until the final "RR, TU es 73." Pitting ones skills and station against that uncertainty (propagation, pileups, other operators' skills, and my own ability to hear and understand) is where the satisfaction lies. That's the "magic" in radio (at least for me). Reliance on a computer to do signal processing, forward error correction, etc., largely takes my skills out of the picture, and reduces that tantalizing uncertainty to a "ho-hum" level. (If, indeed, we are looking to a future of reliable computer-to-computer amateur communications, what is the point of a "weak link" radio interface?) 

What would hunting be if nothing more than a few keystrokes on a laptop or smartphone landed a nice 8-point buck on your tailgate? What would fishing be if nothing more than a few such keystrokes put a trophy fish in the bottom of the boat? Some wouldn't care; a trophy is a trophy. But I'll wager most would quickly tire of it and quickly return to the "traditional" sports. 

Digital modes come and go. Morse has been with us from the start. 

73, 

Mark -- WA9ETW 

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:14:05 -0400
From: "Dave AA6YQ" <aa6yq at ambersoft.com>
To: <topband at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Message-ID: <0b2f01d34da3$e68b4050$b3a1c0f0$@ambersoft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="utf-8"

"Technologies available before you reached the age of 35 are standard; every op should use them. Technologies that arrived after you reached the age of 35 will kill the hobby."

We've heard this with every new technology, going back to the advent of CW in the days of spark.

        73,

            Dave, AA6YQ

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:15:19 -0600
From: W0MU Mike Fatchett <w0mu at w0mu.com>
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8
Message-ID: <9634f7c8-7b17-ff0e-cd28-a4d8b014c90c at w0mu.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

We will continue to see more and more of this as the cities expand and 
people are more inclined to live in the cities as the younger generation 
is.??? FT8 or other modes made ham radio possible where it normally 
would not.? My noise is going to go up greatly because they are putting 
in electric light rail trains. Not my choice.? Moving is not really an 
option either.

W0MU

On 10/25/2017 9:05 AM, Ian_Wade_G3NRW via Topband wrote:
> I just stumbled across this thread, and I understand many of the 
> opinions expressed here.
>
> But one point that I don't think anyone has mentioned: the OP lives in 
> the middle of nowhere in Western Australia, where noise problems are 
> probably virtually non-existent. In contrast, I live in the south of 
> England, where electronic smog from every kind of internet device, tv 
> etc etc makes top-band virtually unusable these days. Noise levels are 
> S9 at times, even in the early hours of the morning when DX is around. 
> I use FT8 because there is a chance it will get through, even if I 
> can't hear the signal in the cans.
>
> Like many here I suspect, I'm now well over 70, and have been licensed 
> since 1959. I started on top band with home-built tube equipment, and 
> enjoyed it for many years. But I also enjoy trying new modes like FT8 
> whenever they appear, and will probably always do so.
>
> In my book there's room for everyone with all kinds of interests. 
> We're all in this together, and if you don't like the new-fangled 
> whizz-bang (silent digital) modes I have no issue with that.
>

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 08:16:00 -0700
From: Dick Bingham <dick.bingham at gmail.com>
To: sm6cvx at hjelmstrom.se, vk6vz at arach.net.au, sm5djz at ssa.se,     Topband
    <topband at contesting.com>
Subject: Topband: Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio is more or
    less lost.- Hans Hjelmstr?m
Message-ID:
    <CAMX=kL=Lg5NNtkbGtjJkwkWgGSP+9MdFKt1ay40Oyv=Byvb5pg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

In Hans Hjelmstrom's opinion I've partially listed below, I completely
agree. Ham Radio is doomed
to oblivion once we old-timers die off.

Why ? Well, consider:
1 - Fear of the FCC and loss of license is gone
2 - Profanity and other on-air forms of civil disrespect abound
3 - 8 and 9-YO EXTRA Class ticket holders - Cracker-Jack-prize
ticket-holders
4 - Cell phone comms to anywhere in the world kills mystery of radio
5 - Examine QST's "The Doctor Is In" column and look at questions Extra's
are asking
6 - It appears today's kids are more interested in gaming as opposed to
things math/science
    they are just application-experts and have little or no understanding
of HOW a computer
    functions.(I have to admit my digital hardware skills are quite
lacking too.)
7 - CC&R restrictions against antennas has crippled many op's driving them
to being
    repeater-band operators
8 - Loss of CW as an entry-into-Ham-Radio-Filter has seriously dumbed-down
the technical
    side of Ham Radio
9 - Repeater systems linked together by commercial fiber lines, etc.

73 Dick/w7wkr at CN98pi and CN97uj
===============================================================
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:23:51 +0200
From: Hans Hjelmstr?m <sm6cvx at hjelmstrom.se>
To: Steve Ireland <vk6vz at arach.net.au>, sm5djz at ssa.se,  sm6cmU
        <sm6cmu at inolit.se>, topband at contesting.com
Cc: Kjell Nerlich <sm6ctq at gmail.com>, sm6ctq at ssa.se,    Peter Andersson
        <sm6mcw at skara.net>
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Message-ID: <435447A1-A63A-4146-B55B-F17403D3234C at hjelmstrom.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Hi Steve

I FULLY agree on all you write.  Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio
is more or less lost.

According to me,,,this is NOT Ham radio,, it is digi to digi without any
personal feeling.
And even more ,it destroy completely the challenge of Ham radio?..

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:21:45 -0500
From: garyk9gs <garyk9gs at wi.rr.com>
To: 'Topband reflector' <topband at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Message-ID: <20171025152353.C0617AC9B50 at mx.contesting.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I was riding to a DX club meeting on Monday night with a friend who recently started playing around with FT8.
He said he's worked 60+ countries in a week or so using 100w.? Not on 160m.? He said that many of the QSOs were 10 or more db below the noise and many he could not hear at all.
All it would take is a few lines of additional code (the QSO itself is already automated) to log and find the next contact and one could go to work in the morning and come home to find out what you've worked.? The software even highlights the "new ones".
He described making a QSO as much fun as watching paint dry.
Not for me.? This is kind of like the driverless cars that everyone is saying will revolutionise transportation.? ?I just don't get the attraction.? ?Both technologies sound boring.? I'll go read a good book instead.
Yeah, maybe I'm old fashioned but I'm only 55.

73-Gary K9GS?
-------- Original message --------From: "Wes Attaway (N5WA)" <wesattaway at bellsouth.net> Date: 10/25/17  8:11 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: 'Steve Ireland' <vk6vz at arach.net.au>, 'Topband reflector' <topband at contesting.com> Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) 
I agree with all the comments re digital modes such as FT8.? I was
discussing this recently with a local ham and I told him that I thought ARRL
could create a new "DXCC While Being Asleep" award.? With FT8 all you have
to do is to click your mouse once in a while.? The rest of the time you
could just be dozing while the computer is making a few QSOs.? You really
don't have to be awake while the QSOs (if you want to call them that) are
being made.

?? -------------------
Wes Attaway (N5WA)
(318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA
Computer/Cellphone Forensics
AttawayForensics.com
?? -------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Ireland
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:25 AM
To: Topband reflector
Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

G'day

As a committed (yeah, that's probably the right word - complete with white
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I've never been so
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England.
Yeah, I am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX
stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in
particular, before those stations who didn't have the same technology). 

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in
digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you 'saw' signals
through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable
technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast
majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had
nothing to do with the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket
(you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the
modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy
digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren't, were not good at
dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying
amounts of noise.? 

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure
that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on
my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have
quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can
have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m
DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. 

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I
can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz - FT-8 central.? On
some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I've dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of
FT-8 activity on my band scope. 

Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it
comes down to it,? I just can't use it. My heart isn't in it.? 

My computer will be talking to someone else's computer and there will be no
sense of either a particular person's way of sending CW or the tone of their
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is
actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been
lost.

I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can
still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the
noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real
excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic!

So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as
I've always enjoyed it.? 

Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with
FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside
down and what do you think the future holds? 

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD

---
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_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:34:30 -0500
From: Mike Waters <mikewate at gmail.com>
To: Dave AA6YQ <aa6yq at ambersoft.com>
Cc: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Message-ID:
    <CA+FxYXh5HRt34V=zhs=j_n-nTq4Qn=ji6r5L+UKwq=7FLRWJtQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Oooh! Verrrry well said, Dave!! Short and perfect. :-)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Oct 25, 2017 10:14 AM, "Dave AA6YQ" <aa6yq at ambersoft.com> wrote:

"Technologies available before you reached the age of 35 are standard;
every op should use them. Technologies that arrived after you reached the
age of 35 will kill the hobby."

We've heard this with every new technology, going back to the advent of CW
in the days of spark.

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:46:02 -0600
From: W0MU Mike Fatchett <w0mu at w0mu.com>
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio is more
    or less lost.- Hans Hjelmstr?m
Message-ID: <1dbbcf23-5e7e-1931-4cae-820ba84183f8 at w0mu.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

Ham radio is not dead.? It has been dying since I got into it.

1 - Fear of the FCC and loss of license is gone

This was a rarity anyway.? People are still losing their licenses and 
the fines can be huge.
> 2 - Profanity and other on-air forms of civil disrespect abound
Society in general acts this way not just hams.? Hams are people too.
> 3 - 8 and 9-YO EXTRA Class ticket holders - Cracker-Jack-prize
> ticket-holders
The tests have been made easier. Why does this matter?? My son who got 
is tech at 13 could of had his extra by 15 but he got his general and 
stopped.? He have very little interest in radio.? Some of it is because 
of the nasty people he has heard and had to deal with, lousy conditions 
and his free time is chewed up with fantasy football, Drones, gaming 
etc.? There are so many more outlets for kids and young people today 
than ever.
> 4 - Cell phone comms to anywhere in the world kills mystery of radio
What really has killed radio is the steep price to get in and dwindling 
locations in which to do it.? To be competitive you must have a pretty 
nice station.? That is a major turn off.? You can be a competitive gamer 
with middle of the road computers.
> 5 - Examine QST's "The Doctor Is In" column and look at questions Extra's
> are asking
People have been asking silly questions for years in that column.
> 6 - It appears today's kids are more interested in gaming as opposed to
> things math/science
>      they are just application-experts and have little or no understanding
> of HOW a computer
>      functions.(I have to admit my digital hardware skills are quite
> lacking too.)
How many kids were interested in ham radio when you were growing up?? I 
bet not many.? I went to a Junior high school and we had one teacher and 
about 8 students interested in a school about about 300 people.? I bet 
that percentage is off the charts high for interest in radio.? I just 
happened to live in a very rural area with a bunch of hams around.

Those gamer kids probably know more about computer than most of us on 
this list.? They know how to over clock and get the most out of their 
rigs, etc.? Different skill sets.? They will be driving unmanned fighter 
jets, drones, tanks and more and will do it far better than any of us.

How many hams can explain how their radios work.? Take a K3 or flex for 
example.? I bet most hams would not be able to tell you how a modern rig 
works.
> 7 - CC&R restrictions against antennas has crippled many op's driving them
> to being
>      repeater-band operators
Which is why FT8 and other modes like this and whatever is coming will 
keep ham radio alive.
> 8 - Loss of CW as an entry-into-Ham-Radio-Filter has seriously dumbed-down
> the technical
>      side of Ham Radio
Wrong.? Dead wrong.? There are more people interested in CW now than 
ever.? When you allow people to learn what they want instead of forcing 
them down a path you get more out of them.?? I can't tell you the number 
of Parks on the air SSB or county hunter ops that have started to learn 
CW because they want to make more contacts and have figured out CW is 
better when condx suck.
> 9 - Repeater systems linked together by commercial fiber lines, etc.
Why is this bad?? Linking is good for statewide coverage, you get to 
talk to more people and the systems are more robust and can handle 
emergency and rescue ops better.

>
> 73 Dick/w7wkr at CN98pi and CN97uj
> ===============================================================
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:23:51 +0200
> From: Hans Hjelmstr?m <sm6cvx at hjelmstrom.se>
> To: Steve Ireland <vk6vz at arach.net.au>, sm5djz at ssa.se,  sm6cmU
>          <sm6cmu at inolit.se>, topband at contesting.com
> Cc: Kjell Nerlich <sm6ctq at gmail.com>, sm6ctq at ssa.se,    Peter Andersson
>          <sm6mcw at skara.net>
> Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
> Message-ID: <435447A1-A63A-4146-B55B-F17403D3234C at hjelmstrom.se>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Hi Steve
>
> I FULLY agree on all you write.  Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio
> is more or less lost.
>
> According to me,,,this is NOT Ham radio,, it is digi to digi without any
> personal feeling.
> And even more ,it destroy completely the challenge of Ham radio?..
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

------------------------------

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------------------------------

End of Topband Digest, Vol 178, Issue 25
****************************************