Topband: Topband Digest, Vol 217, Issue 1
Dick Bingham
dick.bingham at gmail.com
Fri Jan 1 20:24:05 EST 2021
Requesting "Off-Line" replies to a question
I am strongly considering purchasing an Elecraft KPA-500 and KAT-500
amplifier and tuner combo. The KPA-1500 is probably too much for the
neighbors around me (compact 80X100 foot city lots) to 'enjoy', so the
500-watt system best suits them AND my wallet!
Are there any horror stories about these units about which I should be
informed ? I'd enjoy getting back on 160 from this city QTH.
Any replies to -- dick.bingham at gmail.com
73 Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 9:02 AM <topband-request at contesting.com> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. SM5EDX 160m in KL7 December 31,2020 (uy0zg)
> 2. Question about on ground radials field. (Jim Clymer)
> 3. Re: Question about on ground radials field. (Artek Manuals)
> 4. Re: Question about on ground radials field. (Jim Brown)
> 5. Re: Question about on ground radials field. (Dave Cuthbert)
> 6. Vertical choke needed? (Kenneth Silverman)
> 7. Re: Question about on ground radials field. (donovanf at erols.com)
> 8. Re: Vertical choke needed? (Michael Walker)
> 9. Re: Vertical choke needed? (Kenny Silverman)
> 10. Re: Vertical choke needed? (Wes)
> 11. Re: Vertical choke needed? (Artek Manuals)
> 12. Re: Vertical choke needed? (Michael Walker)
> 13. Re: Vertical choke needed? (Wes)
> 14. Re: Vertical choke needed? (Jim Brown)
> 15. Re: Vertical choke needed? (Jim Brown)
> 16. Re: Vertical choke needed? (Jim Brown)
> 17. Re: Vertical choke needed? (Artek Manuals)
> 18. Choke Baluns etc (Roger Kennedy)
> 19. Re: Vertical choke needed? (Michael Walker)
> 20. Friday SSB DX Activity Night (Roger Kennedy)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 21:20:17 +0200
> From: uy0zg <uy0zg at mksat.net>
> To: Topband <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Topband: SM5EDX 160m in KL7 December 31,2020
> Message-ID: <c3819b7f8c700c6d16fc6fdabed41f7b at mksat.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U-usMyfjzM
>
> --
> Nick, UY0ZG
> http://www.topband.in.ua
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 14:47:25 -0500
> From: Jim Clymer <ws6x.ars at gmail.com>
> To: topband <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Topband: Question about on ground radials field.
> Message-ID:
> <CAENrfzk08e+t9gcv-cgu9CpVGFT2gTVxxs8Sx=
> MzjBrbLBv9rA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hello Gang,
> This is somewhat related to the "Will radials on ground help?" thread. I
> have poked around in various discussion groups but haven't found a specific
> answer.
> Assuming I have a fairly decent radial system on the ground (60 radials of
> various lengths, some longer than 1/4 wave, many shorter), what happens if
> I elevate the feedpoint of a quarter-wave, base-fed vertical? Let's say I
> have an aluminum mounting post properly bonded to the radial plate, the top
> of which will serve as the "radial system" connection for the vertical. Is
> there some fractional part of a wavelength that the feedpoint could be
> raised and not lose the effectiveness of the on ground radial system?
> Thanks, and HNY to all!
> Jim - WS6X
>
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> > 1. Re: Elevated Radials - will radials on ground help?
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 13:15:19 -0500
> >
> > > I was under the impression that If you have elevated radials and if you
> > > take even one to the ground you might as well move all to the
> > > ground..??Fred KB4QZH
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 15:18:40 -0500
> From: Artek Manuals <Manuals at ArtekManuals.com>
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: Question about on ground radials field.
> Message-ID: <d74fed07-d65f-792e-73bd-32f13033d3af at ArtekManuals.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Not a simple , on size fits all answer
>
> What happens depends on the frequency? you are talking about ??? ( I
> assume 1.825 but if it is a multi band vertical ..then???) and how much
> above the ground plane you are talking about
>
> And the approximate foot print of your radial systems ( square lot
> filled in with radials ?)
>
> on 160M the raising of a few feet will likely have little affect if any
> on the overall efficiency of the antenna if that was what you were hoping?
>
> Dave
> NR1DX
>
>
> On 12/31/2020 2:47 PM, Jim Clymer wrote:
> > Hello Gang,
> > This is somewhat related to the "Will radials on ground help?" thread. I
> > have poked around in various discussion groups but haven't found a
> specific
> > answer.
> > Assuming I have a fairly decent radial system on the ground (60 radials
> of
> > various lengths, some longer than 1/4 wave, many shorter), what happens
> if
> > I elevate the feedpoint of a quarter-wave, base-fed vertical? Let's say I
> > have an aluminum mounting post properly bonded to the radial plate, the
> top
> > of which will serve as the "radial system" connection for the vertical.
> Is
> > there some fractional part of a wavelength that the feedpoint could be
> > raised and not lose the effectiveness of the on ground radial system?
> > Thanks, and HNY to all!
> > Jim - WS6X
> >
> >> Today's Topics:
> >> 1. Re: Elevated Radials - will radials on ground help?
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 13:15:19 -0500
> >>
> >>> I was under the impression that If you have elevated radials and if you
> >>> take even one to the ground you might as well move all to the
> >>> ground..??Fred KB4QZH
> > _________________
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
> --
> Dave Manuals at ArtekManuals.com www.ArtekManuals.com
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 13:24:47 -0800
> From: Jim Brown <jim at audiosystemsgroup.com>
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: Question about on ground radials field.
> Message-ID:
> <136e19b7-62a4-7033-835e-df7f1ce63301 at audiosystemsgroup.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> On 12/31/2020 11:47 AM, Jim Clymer wrote:
> > This is somewhat related to the "Will radials on ground help?" thread. I
> > have poked around in various discussion groups but haven't found a
> specific
> > answer.
>
> The best way to learn technical things is to study them, and, and the
> best recent work on radial systems has been published by Rudy Severns,
> N6LF, an ARRL Handbook contributor. All of his work is published on his
> website.
>
> > Assuming I have a fairly decent radial system on the ground (60 radials
> of
> > various lengths, some longer than 1/4 wave, many shorter), what happens
> if
> > I elevate the feedpoint of a quarter-wave, base-fed vertical? Let's say I
> > have an aluminum mounting post properly bonded to the radial plate, the
> top
> > of which will serve as the "radial system" connection for the vertical.
> Is
> > there some fractional part of a wavelength that the feedpoint could be
> > raised and not lose the effectiveness of the on ground radial system?
>
> Why do you want to do this? What are you trying to accomplish?
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 11:37:27 -1000
> From: Dave Cuthbert <telegrapher9 at gmail.com>
> To: Jim Clymer <ws6x.ars at gmail.com>
> Cc: topband <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: Question about on ground radials field.
> Message-ID:
> <CAHF5OZd-oSs4ZgZK=2ECHtSeHk=
> vuG5uB1eB56ZZbzrSYGA-VA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> The antenna becomes a ground mounted vertical having elevated feed. The
> wire from the ground radial system to the base of the vertical becomes a
> radiating portion of the vertical. The vertical has increased in length by
> the wire length.
>
> Dave KH6AQ
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:48 AM Jim Clymer <ws6x.ars at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Gang,
> > This is somewhat related to the "Will radials on ground help?" thread. I
> > have poked around in various discussion groups but haven't found a
> specific
> > answer.
> > Assuming I have a fairly decent radial system on the ground (60 radials
> of
> > various lengths, some longer than 1/4 wave, many shorter), what happens
> if
> > I elevate the feedpoint of a quarter-wave, base-fed vertical? Let's say I
> > have an aluminum mounting post properly bonded to the radial plate, the
> top
> > of which will serve as the "radial system" connection for the vertical.
> Is
> > there some fractional part of a wavelength that the feedpoint could be
> > raised and not lose the effectiveness of the on ground radial system?
> > Thanks, and HNY to all!
> > Jim - WS6X
> >
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > > 1. Re: Elevated Radials - will radials on ground help?
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 13:15:19 -0500
> > >
> > > > I was under the impression that If you have elevated radials and if
> you
> > > > take even one to the ground you might as well move all to the
> > > > ground..??Fred KB4QZH
> > >
> > _________________
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > Reflector
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 19:15:48 -0500
> From: Kenneth Silverman <kenny.k2kw at gmail.com>
> To: TopBand List <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Topband: Vertical choke needed?
> Message-ID:
> <CAKw2SdwFrg3C=Qz8TieNWW-F5r=
> NJrXW1J+AGiSHVqOLQTadoQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hello, I have an inverted-L and the radials are laying on the ground AND
> the coax is on the ground too with radials right near the coax run. Do I
> need a choke to stop any feedline coupling/radiation, and if so, where in
> the feedline?
>
> The antenna is in the woods so burying either the radials or coax won't be
> easy.
>
> Many thanks, Kenny K2KW
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 19:17:15 -0500 (EST)
> From: donovanf at erols.com
> To: topband <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: Question about on ground radials field.
> Message-ID:
> <358044710.1690849.1609460235460.JavaMail.root at starpower.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
>
> That simply makes the radiating part of the vertical taller and elevates
> feed point.
>
>
> Its known in professional antenna engineering circles as a sleeved
> monopole with elevated feed point. The classic version is a vertical
> with its feedline routed through a sleeve that is 1/2 the length of the
> vertical above the feed point at the top of the sleeve. The bottom
> of the sleeve is connected to radials laying on the ground or
> slightly buried.
>
>
> Its similar in concept to the off-center fed dipole.
>
>
> 73
> Frank
> W3LPL
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:48 AM Jim Clymer <ws6x.ars at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Gang,
> > This is somewhat related to the "Will radials on ground help?" thread. I
> > have poked around in various discussion groups but haven't found a
> specific
> > answer.
> > Assuming I have a fairly decent radial system on the ground (60 radials
> of
> > various lengths, some longer than 1/4 wave, many shorter), what happens
> if
> > I elevate the feedpoint of a quarter-wave, base-fed vertical? Let's say
> I
> > have an aluminum mounting post properly bonded to the radial plate, the
> top
> > of which will serve as the "radial system" connection for the vertical.
> Is
> > there some fractional part of a wavelength that the feedpoint could be
> > raised and not lose the effectiveness of the on ground radial system?
> > Thanks, and HNY to all!
> > Jim - WS6X
> >
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > > 1. Re: Elevated Radials - will radials on ground help?
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 13:15:19 -0500
> > >
> > > > I was under the impression that If you have elevated radials and if
> you
> > > > take even one to the ground you might as well move all to the
> > > > ground..??Fred KB4QZH
> > >
> > _________________
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > Reflector
> >
> _________________
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 20:01:16 -0500
> From: Michael Walker <va3mw at portcredit.net>
> To: Kenneth Silverman <kenny.k2kw at gmail.com>
> Cc: TopBand List <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical choke needed?
> Message-ID: <62CD13AD-E3C2-4579-9095-F1ECA8CD31AD at portcredit.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Hi Ken
>
> Chokes at both ends of the feed line are always a good idea.
>
> I have a similar setup to you but with elevated radials and I have Mix 31
> chokes right at the base of the antenna with an UNUN since I am using 75
> ohm coax and then more chokes at the antenna switch.
>
> You can?t use enough chokes.
>
> Mike va3mw
>
> > On Dec 31, 2020, at 7:16 PM, Kenneth Silverman <kenny.k2kw at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > ?Hello, I have an inverted-L and the radials are laying on the ground AND
> > the coax is on the ground too with radials right near the coax run. Do I
> > need a choke to stop any feedline coupling/radiation, and if so, where in
> > the feedline?
> >
> > The antenna is in the woods so burying either the radials or coax won't
> be
> > easy.
> >
> > Many thanks, Kenny K2KW
> > _________________
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 20:23:03 -0500
> From: Kenny Silverman <kenny.k2kw at gmail.com>
> To: Michael Walker <va3mw at portcredit.net>
> Cc: TopBand List <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical choke needed?
> Message-ID: <96EFE78C-B4F3-4C71-B692-69011234C006 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Thanks Mike. I wasn?t sure if one was needed where the coax exits the
> radial field
>
> Regards , Kenny K2KW
>
> > On Dec 31, 2020, at 8:01 PM, Michael Walker <va3mw at portcredit.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > ?Hi Ken
> >
> > Chokes at both ends of the feed line are always a good idea.
> >
> > I have a similar setup to you but with elevated radials and I have Mix
> 31 chokes right at the base of the antenna with an UNUN since I am using 75
> ohm coax and then more chokes at the antenna switch.
> >
> > You can?t use enough chokes.
> >
> > Mike va3mw
> >
> >> On Dec 31, 2020, at 7:16 PM, Kenneth Silverman <kenny.k2kw at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> ?Hello, I have an inverted-L and the radials are laying on the ground
> AND
> >> the coax is on the ground too with radials right near the coax run. Do
> I
> >> need a choke to stop any feedline coupling/radiation, and if so, where
> in
> >> the feedline?
> >>
> >> The antenna is in the woods so burying either the radials or coax won't
> be
> >> easy.
> >>
> >> Many thanks, Kenny K2KW
> >> _________________
> >> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 19:49:43 -0700
> From: Wes <wes_n7ws at triconet.org>
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical choke needed?
> Message-ID: <96aac1ee-fdce-7983-c046-58c0af936189 at triconet.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> I have the same situation and no choke.? IMHO the transmission line is
> just
> another random length radial.? I don't have chokes on any of the others
> either.
>
> Wes? N7WS
>
>
> On 12/31/2020 5:15 PM, Kenneth Silverman wrote:
> > Hello, I have an inverted-L and the radials are laying on the ground AND
> > the coax is on the ground too with radials right near the coax run. Do I
> > need a choke to stop any feedline coupling/radiation, and if so, where in
> > the feedline?
> >
> > The antenna is in the woods so burying either the radials or coax won't
> be
> > easy.
> >
> > Many thanks, Kenny K2KW
> > _________________
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 22:09:33 -0500
> From: Artek Manuals <Manuals at ArtekManuals.com>
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical choke needed?
> Message-ID: <cfba0a80-0299-8731-bf84-b6979e45b1bb at ArtekManuals.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Kenny
>
> My personal experience with radials on the ground is that with a fair
> number (16 or more) that I end up with little if any common mode
> currents on the coax . Smaller (numbers of)? ground mounted radial
> counts could benefit somewhat from a choke, depends on other factors?
> besides the number of radials like relative ground conductivity.
>
> Not hard to measure see
>
> https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/measuring-common-mode-current.623054/page-2.
>
> you can make a simple common mode choke and do a before and after to see
> the relative change..if any
>
> Elevated radial systems NEED a choke ..PERIOD. Been there , done that,
> got the RF burns to prove it...8^(
>
> Dave
> NR1DX
>
>
>
> On 12/31/2020 7:15 PM, Kenneth Silverman wrote:
> > Hello, I have an inverted-L and the radials are laying on the ground AND
> > the coax is on the ground too with radials right near the coax run. Do I
> > need a choke to stop any feedline coupling/radiation, and if so, where in
> > the feedline?
> >
> > The antenna is in the woods so burying either the radials or coax won't
> be
> > easy.
> >
> > Many thanks, Kenny K2KW
> > _________________
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > Reflector
>
> --
> Dave Manuals at ArtekManuals.com www.ArtekManuals.com
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 22:22:27 -0500
> From: Michael Walker <va3mw at portcredit.net>
> To: Wes <wes_n7ws at triconet.org>
> Cc: topband <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical choke needed?
> Message-ID:
> <CA+33ts6Z5vPrX5uPSwaDwdWd=
> Pod80i2aj9Q8NfU+dBFtSwJOw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi Wes
>
> The chokes do a few things. For transmitting, they keep the RF off the
> feedline. It is critical for RX and TX.
>
> Just as importantly, they keep RF and Noise off the feedline while
> receiving, and this is what you want. The quieter you are, the more you
> can hear.
>
> Common Mode Currents can raise make it harder to hear weak signals and I
> have seen and heard this with my own ears, as many others have. How about
> I reduced my 80M noise floor from S9 to lower than S6. I'm not sure on
> 160M as I didn't really get going on 160 until after I was loving chokes.
> I now buy them in lots of 50 in bulk from Digikey.
>
> Read these pages. This is where I started a long time ago
> http://www.yccc.org/Articles/W1HIS/CommonModeChokesW1HIS2006Apr06.pdf.
> Well worth the read.
>
> Next, read Jim's stuff http://k9yc.com/2018Cookbook.pdf
>
> He is part of this group, and I know he will comment at some point.
>
> Mike va3mw
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:50 PM Wes <wes_n7ws at triconet.org> wrote:
>
> > I have the same situation and no choke. IMHO the transmission line is
> > just
> > another random length radial. I don't have chokes on any of the others
> > either.
> >
> > Wes N7WS
> >
> >
> > On 12/31/2020 5:15 PM, Kenneth Silverman wrote:
> > > Hello, I have an inverted-L and the radials are laying on the ground
> AND
> > > the coax is on the ground too with radials right near the coax run.
> Do I
> > > need a choke to stop any feedline coupling/radiation, and if so, where
> in
> > > the feedline?
> > >
> > > The antenna is in the woods so burying either the radials or coax won't
> > be
> > > easy.
> > >
> > > Many thanks, Kenny K2KW
> > > _________________
> > > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > Reflector
> >
> >
> > _________________
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > Reflector
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 23:21:25 -0700
> From: Wes <wes_n7ws at triconet.org>
> To: Michael Walker <va3mw at portcredit.net>
> Cc: topband <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical choke needed?
> Message-ID: <3aa56882-37f0-073a-325b-4b480c8a6553 at triconet.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I've read all of that stuff and more many times.? Frankly, I'm not
> motivated to
> put a 10 pound lump of ferrite on every wire into or out of my shack.? It
> appears that common-mode chokes and articles about them, have become a
> cottage
> industry.? I will leave my opinion of the topic at that.
>
> Back to the actual case at hand, a ground-mounted, inherently unbalanced
> antenna, with a bunch of radials.? I contend that the coax outer conductor
> is
> just another radial.? As an approximation the currents in the radials will
> divide by the number of radials.? Because of its different length, there
> will be
> asymmetry in the coax "radial" current but it could go either way.? So
> tell me
> where exactly do I choke this "radial" and why?
>
> Wes? N7WS
>
> On 12/31/2020 8:22 PM, Michael Walker wrote:
> > Hi Wes
> >
> > The chokes do a few things.? ?For transmitting, they keep the RF off the
> > feedline.? ?It is critical for RX and TX.
> >
> > Just as importantly, they keep RF and Noise off the feedline while
> receiving,
> > and this is what you want.? The quieter you are, the more you can hear.
> >
> > Common Mode Currents can raise make it harder to hear weak signals and I
> > have?seen and heard this with my own ears, as many others have.? How
> about I
> > reduced my 80M noise floor from S9 to lower than S6.? I'm not sure on
> 160M as
> > I didn't really get going on 160 until after I was loving chokes.? I now
> buy
> > them in lots of 50 in bulk from Digikey.
> >
> > Read these pages.? This is where I started a long time ago
> > http://www.yccc.org/Articles/W1HIS/CommonModeChokesW1HIS2006Apr06.pdf
> > <http://www.yccc.org/Articles/W1HIS/CommonModeChokesW1HIS2006Apr06.pdf>.
> Well
> > worth the read.
> >
> > Next, read Jim's stuff http://k9yc.com/2018Cookbook.pdf
> > <http://k9yc.com/2018Cookbook.pdf>
> >
> > He is part of this group, and I know he will comment at some point.
> >
> > Mike va3mw
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:50 PM Wes <wes_n7ws at triconet.org
> > <mailto:wes_n7ws at triconet.org>> wrote:
> >
> > I have the same situation and no choke.? IMHO the transmission line
> is just
> > another random length radial.? I don't have chokes on any of the
> others
> > either.
> >
> > Wes? N7WS
> >
> >
> > On 12/31/2020 5:15 PM, Kenneth Silverman wrote:
> > > Hello, I have an inverted-L and the radials are laying on the
> ground AND
> > > the coax is on the ground too with radials right near the coax
> run.? Do I
> > > need a choke to stop any feedline coupling/radiation, and if so,
> where in
> > > the feedline?
> > >
> > > The antenna is in the woods so burying either the radials or coax
> won't be
> > > easy.
> > >
> > > Many thanks, Kenny K2KW
> > > _________________
> > > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> > <http://www.contesting.com/_topband> - Topband Reflector
> >
> >
> > _________________
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> > <http://www.contesting.com/_topband> - Topband Reflector
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 01:19:38 -0800
> From: Jim Brown <jim at audiosystemsgroup.com>
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical choke needed?
> Message-ID:
> <e23f6d0f-da57-0039-c71d-ed99e01e33a8 at audiosystemsgroup.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> On 12/31/2020 5:01 PM, Michael Walker wrote:
> > Hi Ken
> >
> > Chokes at both ends of the feed line are always a good idea.
>
> At the base of the antenna, yes, so that the feedline doesn't become a
> radial. More are probably wasted money. See my latest Cookbook at
> k9yc.com/publish.htm
> >
> > I have a similar setup to you but with elevated radials and I have Mix
> 31 chokes right at the base of the antenna with an UNUN since I am using 75
> ohm coax and then more chokes at the antenna switch.
> >
> > You can?t use enough chokes.
>
> The only good reasons I've discovered for using chokes on feedlines
> anywhere but at the feedpoint are 1) to break up the feedline into
> lengths that won't be parasitic becoming parasitic elements to other
> verticals; and 2) to prevent noise pickup by a mechanism quantified as
> the Transfer Impedance of the cable, whereby shield current is converted
> to a differential voltage inside the cable.
>
> W3LPL has observed that #2 should not be an issue with coax laying on
> the ground. I am not so optimistic with the CATV RG6 we often use for RX
> antennas, whose shields are VERY flimsy at MF, but I always value
> Frank's observations.
>
> As to chokes at the station -- if they solve problems, they're putting a
> band-aid on badly done (or missing) grounding and bonding. See N0AX's
> ARRL book on the topic, and/or the slide deck for my talks about it.
>
> http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 01:23:44 -0800
> From: Jim Brown <jim at audiosystemsgroup.com>
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical choke needed?
> Message-ID:
> <772288b5-7ee9-0d02-2054-8ab4587c3f1b at audiosystemsgroup.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Hi Wes,
>
> The chokes in my latest Cookbook weigh a LOT less than that. I won't
> debate your engineering judgement about whether one is needed on your
> antenna. You're as good an engineer as anyone on this reflector!
>
> 73, Jim
>
> On 12/31/2020 10:21 PM, Wes wrote:
> > Frankly, I'm not motivated to put a 10 pound lump of ferrite on every
> > wire into or out of my shack.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 01:29:28 -0800
> From: Jim Brown <jim at audiosystemsgroup.com>
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical choke needed?
> Message-ID:
> <e045e285-e382-e3b0-182d-5f25ae2d8269 at audiosystemsgroup.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> On 12/31/2020 7:09 PM, Artek Manuals wrote:
> > Not hard to measure see
> >
> https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/measuring-common-mode-current.623054/page-2.
>
> > you can make a simple common mode choke and do a before and after to see
> > the relative change..if any
>
> I haven't read the link, but common mode current follows the behavior of
> the feedline as an antenna, so common mode current distribution along
> the feedline will vary as with a piece of wire having the dielectric
> properties and dimensions of the feedline, and connected as the feedline
> is. In other words, that feedline is part of the antenna.
>
> So the obvious question is, how many measurements along that feedline
> are you willing to make? :)
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 05:19:36 -0500
> From: Artek Manuals <Manuals at ArtekManuals.com>
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical choke needed?
> Message-ID: <ca80ca93-af20-6959-7a86-710ef2262e85 at ArtekManuals.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Jim/ K9YC
>
> I am with you 100% on your comments below
>
> my 80/ 160 verticals all run "10 lbs of ferrite" at the feed points but
> that is because I run elevated non resonant radials these days. 5lbs of
> ferrites just got to warm to touch, but that is fodder for a whole
> different thread.? My "jungle" makes running ground mounted radial
> systems unpractical.
>
> Among other things? with my wire T's and L's I also avoid coax runs that
> are multiples of odd 1/4 waves at the frequency of interest which helps
> ( how much ?)? didn't measure it a the time, but the Winkeyer stopped
> locking up ......:)
>
> Dave
> NR1DX
>
> On 1/1/2021 4:19 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
> > On 12/31/2020 5:01 PM, Michael Walker wrote:
> >> Hi Ken
> >>
> >> Chokes at both ends of the feed line are always a good idea.
> >
> > At the base of the antenna, yes, so that the feedline doesn't become a
> > radial. More are probably wasted money. See my latest Cookbook at
> > k9yc.com/publish.htm
> >>
> >> I have a similar setup to you but with elevated radials and I have
> >> Mix 31 chokes right at the base of the antenna with an UNUN since I
> >> am using 75 ohm coax and then more chokes at the antenna switch.
> >>
> >> You can?t use enough chokes.
> >
> > The only good reasons I've discovered for using chokes on feedlines
> > anywhere but at the feedpoint are 1) to break up the feedline into
> > lengths that won't be parasitic becoming parasitic elements to other
> > verticals; and 2) to prevent noise pickup by a mechanism quantified as
> > the Transfer Impedance of the cable, whereby shield current is
> > converted to a differential voltage inside the cable.
> >
> > W3LPL has observed that #2 should not be an issue with coax laying on
> > the ground. I am not so optimistic with the CATV RG6 we often use for
> > RX antennas, whose shields are VERY flimsy at MF, but I always value
> > Frank's observations.
> >
> > As to chokes at the station -- if they solve problems, they're putting
> > a band-aid on badly done (or missing) grounding and bonding. See
> > N0AX's ARRL book on the topic, and/or the slide deck for my talks
> > about it.
> >
> > http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf
> >
> > 73, Jim K9YC
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > Reflector
>
> --
> Dave Manuals at ArtekManuals.com www.ArtekManuals.com
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 12:19:56 -0000
> From: "Roger Kennedy" <roger at wessexproductions.co.uk>
> To: <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Topband: Choke Baluns etc
> Message-ID: <F706EB65348447299EB00DF3595E30DF at Packard>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> I think if I had a vertical with just a few Radials lying on the ground, I
> wouldn't use a Common Mode Choke either . . . to me, any RF on the outer of
> the coax would just mean it acts as another radial.
>
> I've actually NEVER had any issues with RF in the shack . . . I used
> Dipoles
> fed with co-ax on several bands for decades, without any Chokes at the
> feedpoint. However, in an effort to reduce Received Noise, I DID install
> decent Ferrite Choke Baluns on my 160m & 80m Dipoles about 4 years ago . .
> .
> however, it made no difference to anything ! (neither the noise level or
> the
> resonant frequency of the antennas)
>
> Here's something else that many people find surprising . . .
>
> At 3 different QTHs I have had over the decades, it wasn't possible to put
> up a Dipole for Top Band . . . so I had an End-Fed Half Wave. At all 3
> locations the shack was in an attic room on the third floor . . . so the
> end
> of the 260ft of wire came into the attic window, straight to an ATU on the
> windowsill. The only ground I had was the Mains Wiring around the house,
> plus the central-heating system (copper pipes all over).
>
> Even running an Amplifier, I never had any RF Feedback issues . . . and
> those End-Fed Half Waves seemed to work just as well as the Dipoles I used
> at other QTHs.
>
> (I do, however, suspect that with all the RF Noise rubbish around these
> days
> that the noise level would be worse than a Dipole!)
>
> 73 Roger G3YRO
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 08:52:21 -0500
> From: Michael Walker <va3mw at portcredit.net>
> To: Wes <wes_n7ws at triconet.org>
> Cc: topband <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical choke needed?
> Message-ID:
> <
> CA+33ts4U+udsyogUsDu-fbV4swxDG-7TNhiB1YUkN3K1VywpNQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Wes
>
> That is an option you have and no one is making anything do anything. It
> is 100% up to you.
>
> Happy New Year
>
> On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 1:21 AM Wes <wes_n7ws at triconet.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > I've read all of that stuff and more many times. Frankly, I'm not
> > motivated to put a 10 pound lump of ferrite on every wire into or out of
> my
> > shack. It appears that common-mode chokes and articles about them, have
> > become a cottage industry. I will leave my opinion of the topic at that.
> >
> > Back to the actual case at hand, a ground-mounted, inherently unbalanced
> > antenna, with a bunch of radials. I contend that the coax outer
> conductor
> > is just another radial. As an approximation the currents in the radials
> > will divide by the number of radials. Because of its different length,
> > there will be asymmetry in the coax "radial" current but it could go
> either
> > way. So tell me where exactly do I choke this "radial" and why?
> >
> > Wes N7WS
> >
> > On 12/31/2020 8:22 PM, Michael Walker wrote:
> >
> > Hi Wes
> >
> > The chokes do a few things. For transmitting, they keep the RF off the
> > feedline. It is critical for RX and TX.
> >
> > Just as importantly, they keep RF and Noise off the feedline while
> > receiving, and this is what you want. The quieter you are, the more you
> > can hear.
> >
> > Common Mode Currents can raise make it harder to hear weak signals and I
> > have seen and heard this with my own ears, as many others have. How
> about
> > I reduced my 80M noise floor from S9 to lower than S6. I'm not sure on
> > 160M as I didn't really get going on 160 until after I was loving chokes.
> > I now buy them in lots of 50 in bulk from Digikey.
> >
> > Read these pages. This is where I started a long time ago
> > http://www.yccc.org/Articles/W1HIS/CommonModeChokesW1HIS2006Apr06.pdf.
> > Well worth the read.
> >
> > Next, read Jim's stuff http://k9yc.com/2018Cookbook.pdf
> >
> > He is part of this group, and I know he will comment at some point.
> >
> > Mike va3mw
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:50 PM Wes <wes_n7ws at triconet.org> wrote:
> >
> >> I have the same situation and no choke. IMHO the transmission line is
> >> just
> >> another random length radial. I don't have chokes on any of the others
> >> either.
> >>
> >> Wes N7WS
> >>
> >>
> >> On 12/31/2020 5:15 PM, Kenneth Silverman wrote:
> >> > Hello, I have an inverted-L and the radials are laying on the ground
> AND
> >> > the coax is on the ground too with radials right near the coax run.
> Do
> >> I
> >> > need a choke to stop any feedline coupling/radiation, and if so, where
> >> in
> >> > the feedline?
> >> >
> >> > The antenna is in the woods so burying either the radials or coax
> won't
> >> be
> >> > easy.
> >> >
> >> > Many thanks, Kenny K2KW
> >> > _________________
> >> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> >> Reflector
> >>
> >>
> >> _________________
> >> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> >> Reflector
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 13:58:09 -0000
> From: "Roger Kennedy" <roger at wessexproductions.co.uk>
> To: <topband at contesting.com>
> Subject: Topband: Friday SSB DX Activity Night
> Message-ID: <6640D7CE4E84427EA41D6C7992364FFF at Packard>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Happy New Year to all Top Band DXers !
>
> Following on from the continued success of the Wednesday CW Nights (Great
> to
> have lots of stations on again this week!) . . . I'd like to suggest an SSB
> DX Night, and think Friday Night/Saturday Morning might be a good time.
>
> Years ago (when conditions seemed much better) I used to work lots of DX
> Stations on SSB . . . but there seems to be very few stations on these
> days.
> I know conditions aren't so good . . . but signals ARE often strong enough
> to have an SSB QSO. I do usually have several SSB contacts on 160 during
> the various Contests, but unlike CW it's often hard to copy weak signals
> due
> to the splatter from strong Europeans !
>
> However, this would not be a problem when there's not a Contest. And one of
> the advantages of a Phone contact (over CW) is that it's easy to have lots
> of stations from both sides of the Pond in the same QSO, all getting
> reports
> from each other (which in itself is interesting, comparing signals)
>
> Here in Britain we're only allowed to run high power below 1850 kHz . . .
> so
> I'm suggesting around 1850 as the best frequency. Best propagation to NA
> for me is currently around 0100Z . . . so I will be on tonight on SSB to
> see
> who's around, hopefully other EU stations will join in too.
>
> 73 Roger G3YRO
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Topband Digest, Vol 217, Issue 1
> ***************************************
>
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