Topband: Topband Digest, Vol 227, Issue 8
Jim Kinney
jimkinney at bellsouth.net
Tue Nov 9 09:27:43 EST 2021
What about using a kite? Dad used to have a WW2 Air Force box kite used for emergency communication by downed pilots. We didn't have the antenna wire so it usually broke whatever string we tried to fly it with, but it would easily have lifted a 160m vertical.
Jim WE4S
Get BlueMail for Android
On Nov 9, 2021, 5:37 AM, at 5:37 AM, Fraser Robertson <g4bjm at hotmail.com> wrote:
>I did this some decades back using met balloons, they were about 4-5'
>diameter, supporting a 1/2 wave or 5/8 antenna. The wire must have a DC
>path to ground to discharge static.
>
>I bought the balloons from a carnival novelty shop!
>
>They work great of course, but no use if it's windy.
>
>There was a company selling helikites, a cross between a kite and a
>balloon, not sure if they're still around though.
>
>73 Fraser G4BJM
>
>Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
>________________________________
>From: Topband <topband-bounces+g4bjm=hotmail.com at contesting.com> on
>behalf of Greg Chartrand via Topband <topband at contesting.com>
>Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 11:38:12 PM
>To: topband at contesting.com <topband at contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: Topband: Topband Digest, Vol 227, Issue 8
>
>look at this160m-balloon-antenna
>
>
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>160m-balloon-antenna
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>
>
>---------------------Greg ChartrandRichland, WA.
>
>On Monday, November 8, 2021, 03:03:33 PM PST,
>topband-request at contesting.com <topband-request at contesting.com> wrote:
>
> Send Topband mailing list submissions to
> topband at contesting.com
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> topband-request at contesting.com
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
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>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of Topband digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Balloon Supported Vertical (Dick Bingham)
> 2. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Jim Brown)
> 3. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Pete Smith N4ZR)
> 4. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Mark - N5OT)
> 5. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (W7TMT - Patrick)
> 6. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (W7TMT - Patrick)
> 7. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Adrian)
> 8. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Adrian)
> 9. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Mike Smith VE9AA)
> 10. cheap radial wire? (Greg Davis)
> 11. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Adrian)
> 12. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Mark - N5OT)
> 13. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Adrian)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 12:48:14 -0800
>From: Dick Bingham <dick.bingham at gmail.com>
>To: topband at contesting.com
>Subject: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>Message-ID: <F1E9D21B-7529-4D7A-91AB-472ACECDAA0F at gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>Greetings All
>
>I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>
>73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 13:00:25 -0800
>From: Jim Brown <jim at audiosystemsgroup.com>
>To: topband at contesting.com
>Cc: W6JTI <letton at asis.com>
>Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>Message-ID:
> <bce484c1-2e3a-17ad-0f43-6d701b33de04 at audiosystemsgroup.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>On 11/8/2021 12:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
>> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>
>W6JTI and W4EF are two guys I know who have done it (and JTI still
>does,
>although he's been finding helium expensive in the last few years).
>
>73, Jim K9YC
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 16:16:56 -0500
>From: Pete Smith N4ZR <pete.n4zr at gmail.com>
>To: topband at contesting.com
>Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>Message-ID: <d1714357-0427-37a1-da1a-b545093ab4c3 at gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>Here's an interesting source -
>https://balloonmarket.co.uk/lift-ability.? Looks like one of the last
>couple in the table should be big enough - say 5 feet in diameter for
>starters.
>
>73, Pete N4ZR
>Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
>web server at<http://beta.reversebeacon.net>.
>For spots, please use your favorite
>"retail" DX cluster.
>
>On 11/8/2021 4:00 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>> On 11/8/2021 12:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
>>> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>>> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>>> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>>
>> W6JTI and W4EF are two guys I know who have done it (and JTI still
>> does, although he's been finding helium expensive in the last few
>years).
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> _________________
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>> Reflector
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 15:17:53 -0600
>From: Mark - N5OT <r-emails at n5ot.com>
>To: TopBand List <topband at contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>Message-ID: <c9837d18-b85f-73d6-a52c-25c603aa3367 at n5ot.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>Been There Done That
>
>You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift.? One
>would
>think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
>full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about
>the
>weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
>helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
>
>Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
>after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the air.
>
>I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift mine.
>
>And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas.? I thought it was a lot
>of money 20 years ago.? Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
>
>The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
>
>The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire
>which
>popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple minutes
>of
>testing it out.? Or something.? It popped on a clear calm day but under
>Full Power.
>
>Anyway, that wrecked my day.? I decided it wasn't fun any more and have
>been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
>
>I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
>since then.
>
>Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons.? I think I got mine from
>a party supply store.? It was not mylar.
>
>Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
>
>Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
>A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
>That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
>132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
>
>A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical made
>of
>#18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
>
>But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
>
>Now I'm having nightmares again.
>
>73 - Mark N5OT
>
>
>On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
>> Greetings All
>>
>> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>>
>> 73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
>> _________________
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>Reflector
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 21:26:49 +0000
>From: W7TMT - Patrick <W7TMT at outlook.com>
>To: Dick Bingham <dick.bingham at gmail.com>, "topband at contesting.com"
> <topband at contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>Message-ID:
><MW2PR1501MB19784EC0E0D223F792CD6FE3F1919 at MW2PR1501MB1978.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
>>From personal experience I can tell you that a 2 foot Mylar balloon is
>not nearly big enough to carry a wire for 160. I used one to fly a 45?
>length of 26 gauge wire to bring the total of a vertical I had rigged
>up on my sailboat to 90?. It had enough lift for that until the wind
>came up.
>
>BTW, if you were to use that wire size and admit it publicly you?ll
>quickly be told it has too little surface area for use on 160 and the
>vendor will even add a note to their Web site saying so. No matter that
>the antenna that would not load before did, and the contest was won for
>your section not withstanding.
>
>Brian N9ADG has a well documented explanation of what it takes here. He
>currently holds both the ARRL and CQWW 160 records for this section
>(WWA). As I recall at least one of the records was set using that
>antenna, perhaps both.
>
>http://n9adg.com/antennas/86/
>
>Patrick, W7TMT
>________________________________
>From: Topband <topband-bounces+w7tmt=outlook.com at contesting.com> on
>behalf of Dick Bingham <dick.bingham at gmail.com>
>Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 12:48:14 PM
>To: topband at contesting.com <topband at contesting.com>
>Subject: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>
>Greetings All
>
>I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>
>73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
>_________________
>Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>Reflector
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 21:54:35 +0000
>From: W7TMT - Patrick <W7TMT at outlook.com>
>To: Mark - N5OT <r-emails at n5ot.com>, TopBand List
> <topband at contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>Message-ID:
><MW2PR1501MB19789E9AD698B5A3E5135E8EF1919 at MW2PR1501MB1978.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
>Regarding the helium?
>
>Be advised the gas used by the party stores these days is almost always
>a mixture and not pure helium. That?s means considerably less lift.
>You?ll likely need to source the good stuff from a industrial gas
>supplier.
>
>W7TMT
>________________________________
>From: Topband <topband-bounces+w7tmt=outlook.com at contesting.com> on
>behalf of Mark - N5OT <r-emails at n5ot.com>
>Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 1:17:53 PM
>To: TopBand List <topband at contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>
>Been There Done That
>
>You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift. One
>would
>think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
>full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about
>the
>weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
>helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
>
>Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
>after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the air.
>
>I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift mine.
>
>And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas. I thought it was a lot
>of money 20 years ago. Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
>
>The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
>
>The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire
>which
>popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple minutes
>of
>testing it out. Or something. It popped on a clear calm day but under
>Full Power.
>
>Anyway, that wrecked my day. I decided it wasn't fun any more and have
>been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
>
>I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
>since then.
>
>Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons. I think I got mine from
>a party supply store. It was not mylar.
>
>Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
>
>Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
>A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
>That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
>132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
>
>A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical made
>of
>#18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
>
>But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
>
>Now I'm having nightmares again.
>
>73 - Mark N5OT
>
>
>On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
>> Greetings All
>>
>> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>>
>> 73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
>> _________________
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>Reflector
>
>_________________
>Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>Reflector
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:02:53 +1000
>From: Adrian <vk4tux at gmail.com>
>To: topband at contesting.com
>Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>Message-ID: <07060da5-f519-38af-b39c-3dc9e9caadfd at gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>I have been doing it here for well over a year. I originally set it all
>up with a 1/4w vertical for 630m,
>
>'which performs very well., Then also 160m and 80m using 3/4w lengths
>
>For 160m I use 90cm latex balloons fully inflated. I use the online
>wind
>forecast showing area
>
>wind velocity and direction. Over 7km/h it is a waste of time. A small
>wind velocity 5km/h and less is beneficial
>
>if the direction is away from the target DX. It becomes directional
>back
>in from the line lean angle.
>
>A slight breeze above 7km/h will bring the balloon down quickly, and
>getting snagged in trees with gusts is a common issue.
>
>It is a game of luck as often the wind forecast is inaccurate, but when
>all is well it is unbeatable.
>
>I use a G size industrial supply Helium bottle, for which I also pay
>rent monthly. It is still cheaper than a tower,
>
>that would never get approval on a small block. As the activity is at
>night it is reasonably stealth.
>
>
>vk4tux
>
>
>On 9/11/21 06:48, Dick Bingham wrote:
>> Greetings All
>>
>> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>>
>> 73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
>> _________________
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>Reflector
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:14:37 +1000
>From: Adrian <vk4tux at gmail.com>
>To: W7TMT - Patrick <W7TMT at outlook.com>, Mark - N5OT
> <r-emails at n5ot.com>, TopBand List <topband at contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>Message-ID: <78e7b428-aee3-c93e-824d-85819e5c288d at gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>Even here the industrial stuff is not 'pure' helium.
>
>They don't admit this until questioned. Helium molecules being smaller
>
>leak through the latex skin leaving the bigger air molecules trapped
>behind.
>
>After the session, I usually bring the balloons back into the house and
>untie them after a few days for re-use,
>
>but for a smaller 80m use size, as they deteriorate and often pop if
>re-reinflated to original size.
>
>After 2-3 days on the ceiling and reducing to 1/3 -1/4 size they sink
>to
>the floor, indicating the residual gas is
>
>not helium, otherwise it would still float. Some have said it is safety
>feature for people not to black out when breathing
>
>the gas for the funny voice gag, Otherwise it is just paying for what
>you don't need, to be legally ripped off.
>
>
>
>vk4tux
>
>
>On 9/11/21 07:54, W7TMT - Patrick wrote:
>> Regarding the helium?
>>
>> Be advised the gas used by the party stores these days is almost
>always a mixture and not pure helium. That?s means considerably less
>lift. You?ll likely need to source the good stuff from a industrial gas
>supplier.
>>
>> W7TMT
>> ________________________________
>> From: Topband <topband-bounces+w7tmt=outlook.com at contesting.com> on
>behalf of Mark - N5OT <r-emails at n5ot.com>
>> Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 1:17:53 PM
>> To: TopBand List <topband at contesting.com>
>> Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>>
>> Been There Done That
>>
>> You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift. One
>would
>> think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
>> full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about
>the
>> weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
>> helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
>>
>> Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
>> after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the
>air.
>>
>> I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift
>mine.
>>
>> And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas. I thought it was a
>lot
>> of money 20 years ago. Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
>>
>> The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
>>
>> The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire
>which
>> popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple minutes
>of
>> testing it out. Or something. It popped on a clear calm day but
>under
>> Full Power.
>>
>> Anyway, that wrecked my day. I decided it wasn't fun any more and
>have
>> been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
>>
>> I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
>> since then.
>>
>> Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons. I think I got mine
>from
>> a party supply store. It was not mylar.
>>
>> Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
>>
>> Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
>> A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
>> That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
>> 132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
>>
>> A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical made
>of
>> #18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
>>
>> But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
>>
>> Now I'm having nightmares again.
>>
>> 73 - Mark N5OT
>>
>>
>> On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
>>> Greetings All
>>>
>>> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>>> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>>> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>>>
>>> 73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
>>> _________________
>>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>Reflector
>> _________________
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>Reflector
>> _________________
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>Reflector
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 9
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 18:17:49 -0400
>From: "Mike Smith VE9AA" <ve9aa at nbnet.nb.ca>
>To: <topband at contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>Message-ID: <002101d7d4ee$77772180$66656480$@nbnet.nb.ca>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Dick,
>
>I see you're getting some replies trickling in already.
>
>Two feet won't do it I don't think my friend....not even close.
>
>In 1997 @ CY9AA (St. Paul's Island) we had a balloon supported 160m
>vertical
>using a very fine uninsulated wire (and I think maybe kite string too).
> I
>was not in charge of this part of the expedition (VE1PZ was our topband
>guy)
>but I am pretty sure we used a 4-5' - "rubber" balloon. (could've been
>latex or something similar)
>We eventually lost our balloons to sharp rocks, so lacking any other
>method
>or access to a store, hi) we blew up a few green garbage bags,
>(doublebagged) which surprisingly lasted a few hours or maybe
>more..where
>there's a will, there's a way.
>
>We were pretty loud in EU and elsewhere, right over salt water.
>
>I think Doug (VE1PZ) went to a specialty (welding?) store to get the
>gas. I
>have no idea what it was-pure helium I presume, but you can see the
>orange
>tank in one 24yr old photo here:
>http://www.uksmg.org/content/cy9photo.htm
>
>Good luck !
>
>Mike VE9AA..ex cy9aa, cy0aa
>
>Greetings All
>
>I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>
>73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
>_________________
>
>
>Mike, Coreen & Corey
>Keswick Ridge, NB
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 17:20:21 -0500
>From: Greg Davis <n3zl.radio at gmail.com>
>To: topband at contesting.com
>Subject: Topband: cheap radial wire?
>Message-ID:
> <CAPW-Egf_j5YSLOJe=ugBssJa_TDn0V5Lt74038Ca7ExWDWpF5Q at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
>Hello Topbanders,
>
>I recently reached out directly to a few people who had posted
>recently(ish) to this email reflector who had described purchasing
>large
>amounts of wire for radials at a (relative) bargain price.
>
>However, after a couple of weeks of waiting, none of those emails have
>been
>responded to. I've got a new-and-improved plan for my 160m vertical in
>my
>back yard, but, at this moment in time, the biggest thing holding me
>back
>is the wire for a sufficient radial field. Do any of you have spools of
>wire you're willing to sell to me if the price is right? Or suggestions
>for
>me where I can purchase it for a reasonable price?
>
>Thank you.
>
>73 de Greg N3ZL
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 11
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:21:34 +1000
>From: Adrian <vk4tux at gmail.com>
>To: W7TMT - Patrick <W7TMT at outlook.com>, Mark - N5OT
> <r-emails at n5ot.com>, TopBand List <topband at contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>Message-ID: <6406ba5e-3743-3e67-4d69-d56ad613a464 at gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>Also the disposable party balloon bottles are a waste of $ and would
>only inflate 2 to 3 of the balloons here.
>
>Industrial gas supply is required to make it viable.
>
>"
>
>ABN 95 000 029 729
>Riverside Corporate Park
>10 Julius Ave, North Ryde NSW 2113
>Tel: 131 262 www.boc.com<http://www.boc.com>
>Email: contact at boc.com
>2nd June 2021
>Dear Adrian Fewster,
>BOC special offer on compressed gas for Adrian Fewster.
>Thank you for your enquiry regarding the supply of gases and equipment
>from BOC Limited. Our customers
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>for each individual product and the
>rental pricing will vary in line with BOC's standard charges unless
>otherwise agreed. This does not apply to
>prices for LPG, Refrigerant, Helium and Acetylene products which will
>vary in line with Supplier increases as
>they are incurred.
>All prices below are GST exclusive. Price may vary if purchased from a
>different BOC Gas & Gear or Gas
>Agent.
>Gas CodeDescriptionCylinder
>Volume
>Annual
>Quantity
>Delivered
>Price**
>Rental (per
>day)##
>124GBALLOON GAS G SIZE7.1m31$398.31$0.6822
>For refrigerant products a refrigerant reclaim and fluoro activity levy
>of $2.38/kg also applies.
>** Where a standard local delivery option is available
>## Rental Pricing is described as Service Charges in BOC's General
>Terms
>and Conditions of Supply
>Rental Pricing
>Cylinder CodeRental (per day)
>'G' Size$0.6822
>You may accept the special offer pricing above in the manner set out in
>the last paragraph of this letter. By
>accepting the special offer pricing above, you warrant that you do not
>have a binding exclusive supply
>arrangement with another supplier for any or all of the products listed
>in the special offer pricing table
>above (or for products substantially similar to those listed)
>applicable
>to your site(s) where the products are
>to be used.
>The Agreement so formed between BOC and you for the supply of the
>products listed in the special offer
>pricing table above will consist of the terms and conditions set out in
>this special offer pricing letter
>together with the BOC General Terms and Conditions of Supply. (as
>amended from time to time) (accessible
>from our website (www.boc.com.au<http://www.boc.com.au>)).
>Under this Agreement we will supply and you will purchase all of your
>requirements for the products
>covered by this Agreement. This Agreement will commence on the date of
>formal acceptance and continues
>until you or we terminate it by giving a minimum of 6 (six) months'
>notice expiring at the end of the
>minimum period of 1year(s) or by either party giving a minimum of 1
>(one) months' notice after the expiry
>of the minimum period, or until it is terminated under the BOC General
>Terms and Conditions of Supply.
>At BOC we believe that our business is here to help your business so if
>you have any queries please feel
>free to get in touch with me at jamie-lee.palelei at boc.com.
>This offer will be loaded to your customer account within two business
>days. "
>
>
>vk4tux
>
>
>On 9/11/21 07:54, W7TMT - Patrick wrote:
>> Regarding the helium?
>>
>> Be advised the gas used by the party stores these days is almost
>always a mixture and not pure helium. That?s means considerably less
>lift. You?ll likely need to source the good stuff from a industrial gas
>supplier.
>>
>> W7TMT
>> ________________________________
>> From: Topband<topband-bounces+w7tmt=outlook.com at contesting.com> on
>behalf of Mark - N5OT<r-emails at n5ot.com>
>> Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 1:17:53 PM
>> To: TopBand List<topband at contesting.com>
>> Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>>
>> Been There Done That
>>
>> You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift. One
>would
>> think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
>> full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about
>the
>> weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
>> helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
>>
>> Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
>> after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the
>air.
>>
>> I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift
>mine.
>>
>> And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas. I thought it was a
>lot
>> of money 20 years ago. Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
>>
>> The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
>>
>> The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire
>which
>> popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple minutes
>of
>> testing it out. Or something. It popped on a clear calm day but
>under
>> Full Power.
>>
>> Anyway, that wrecked my day. I decided it wasn't fun any more and
>have
>> been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
>>
>> I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
>> since then.
>>
>> Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons. I think I got mine
>from
>> a party supply store. It was not mylar.
>>
>> Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
>>
>> Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
>> A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
>> That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
>> 132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
>>
>> A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical made
>of
>> #18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
>>
>> But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
>>
>> Now I'm having nightmares again.
>>
>> 73 - Mark N5OT
>>
>>
>> On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
>>> Greetings All
>>>
>>> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>>> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>>> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>>>
>>> 73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
>>> _________________
>>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>Reflector
>> _________________
>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>Reflector
>> _________________
>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>Reflector
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 12
>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 16:32:21 -0600
>From: Mark - N5OT <r-emails at n5ot.com>
>To: TopBand List <topband at contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>Message-ID: <6335626c-d687-9efe-3b5b-097467134437 at n5ot.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>> we used a 4-5' - "rubber"? balloon. (could've been latex or something
>similar)
>
>So did I.? A 4 foot diameter balloon has 33-ish cubic feet of volume.?
>Looks like Helium is running about $2 a cubic foot = $66 per use?
>
>Gad.? Too pricey for N5OT.
>
>73 - Mark
>
>
>On 11/8/2021 4:21 PM, Adrian wrote:
>> Also the disposable party balloon bottles are a waste of $ and would
>> only inflate 2 to 3 of the balloons here.
>>
>> Industrial gas supply is required to make it viable.
>>
>> "
>>
>> ABN 95 000 029 729
>> Riverside Corporate Park
>> 10 Julius Ave, North Ryde NSW 2113
>> Tel: 131 262 www.boc.com<http://www.boc.com>
>> Email: contact at boc.com
>> 2nd June 2021
>> Dear Adrian Fewster,
>> BOC special offer on compressed gas for Adrian Fewster.
>> Thank you for your enquiry regarding the supply of gases and
>equipment
>> from BOC Limited. Our customers
>> are assured of BOC's genuine commitment to providing premium gas
>> products and services in addition to
>> ongoing technical support, and the convenience of our large national
>> distribution network.
>> Pricing for products which are purchased by you but which are not
>> listed in the special offer pricing table
>> below will be charged at BOC's standard or list prices for each such
>> individual product as varied from time
>> to time unless otherwise agreed. The gas pricing for the products
>> listed in the special offer pricing table
>> below will be varied in proportion to changes in BOC's standard
>prices
>> for each individual product and the
>> rental pricing will vary in line with BOC's standard charges unless
>> otherwise agreed. This does not apply to
>> prices for LPG, Refrigerant, Helium and Acetylene products which will
>> vary in line with Supplier increases as
>> they are incurred.
>> All prices below are GST exclusive. Price may vary if purchased from
>a
>> different BOC Gas & Gear or Gas
>> Agent.
>> Gas CodeDescriptionCylinder
>> Volume
>> Annual
>> Quantity
>> Delivered
>> Price**
>> Rental (per
>> day)##
>> 124GBALLOON GAS G SIZE7.1m31$398.31$0.6822
>> For refrigerant products a refrigerant reclaim and fluoro activity
>> levy of $2.38/kg also applies.
>> ** Where a standard local delivery option is available
>> ## Rental Pricing is described as Service Charges in BOC's General
>> Terms and Conditions of Supply
>> Rental Pricing
>> Cylinder CodeRental (per day)
>> 'G' Size$0.6822
>> You may accept the special offer pricing above in the manner set out
>> in the last paragraph of this letter. By
>> accepting the special offer pricing above, you warrant that you do
>not
>> have a binding exclusive supply
>> arrangement with another supplier for any or all of the products
>> listed in the special offer pricing table
>> above (or for products substantially similar to those listed)
>> applicable to your site(s) where the products are
>> to be used.
>> The Agreement so formed between BOC and you for the supply of the
>> products listed in the special offer
>> pricing table above will consist of the terms and conditions set out
>> in this special offer pricing letter
>> together with the BOC General Terms and Conditions of Supply. (as
>> amended from time to time) (accessible
>> from our website (www.boc.com.au<http://www.boc.com.au>)).
>> Under this Agreement we will supply and you will purchase all of your
>> requirements for the products
>> covered by this Agreement. This Agreement will commence on the date
>of
>> formal acceptance and continues
>> until you or we terminate it by giving a minimum of 6 (six) months'
>> notice expiring at the end of the
>> minimum period of 1year(s) or by either party giving a minimum of 1
>> (one) months' notice after the expiry
>> of the minimum period, or until it is terminated under the BOC
>General
>> Terms and Conditions of Supply.
>> At BOC we believe that our business is here to help your business so
>> if you have any queries please feel
>> free to get in touch with me at jamie-lee.palelei at boc.com.
>> This offer will be loaded to your customer account within two
>business
>> days. "
>>
>>
>> vk4tux
>>
>>
>> On 9/11/21 07:54, W7TMT - Patrick wrote:
>>> Regarding the helium?
>>>
>>> Be advised the gas used by the party stores these days is almost
>>> always a mixture and not pure helium. That?s means considerably less
>>> lift. You?ll likely need to source the good stuff from a industrial
>>> gas supplier.
>>>
>>> W7TMT
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Topband<topband-bounces+w7tmt=outlook.com at contesting.com> on
>>> behalf of Mark - N5OT<r-emails at n5ot.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 1:17:53 PM
>>> To: TopBand List<topband at contesting.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>>>
>>> Been There Done That
>>>
>>> You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift. One
>would
>>> think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
>>> full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about
>the
>>> weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
>>> helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
>>>
>>> Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
>>> after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the
>air.
>>>
>>> I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift
>mine.
>>>
>>> And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas.? I thought it was a
>lot
>>> of money 20 years ago.? Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
>>>
>>> The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
>>>
>>> The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire
>which
>>> popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple
>minutes of
>>> testing it out.? Or something.? It popped on a clear calm day but
>under
>>> Full Power.
>>>
>>> Anyway, that wrecked my day.? I decided it wasn't fun any more and
>have
>>> been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
>>>
>>> I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
>>> since then.
>>>
>>> Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons.? I think I got mine
>from
>>> a party supply store.? It was not mylar.
>>>
>>> Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
>>>
>>> Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
>>> A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
>>> That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
>>> 132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
>>>
>>> A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical
>made of
>>> #18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
>>>
>>> But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
>>>
>>> Now I'm having nightmares again.
>>>
>>> 73 - Mark N5OT
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
>>>> Greetings All
>>>>
>>>> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>>>> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>>>> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>>>>
>>>> 73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
>>>> _________________
>>>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband? - Topband
>>>> Reflector
>>> _________________
>>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband? - Topband
>>> Reflector
>>> _________________
>>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband? - Topband
>>> Reflector
>> _________________
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>> Reflector
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 13
>Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 09:02:06 +1000
>From: Adrian <vk4tux at gmail.com>
>To: Mark - N5OT <r-emails at n5ot.com>, TopBand List
> <topband at contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>Message-ID: <43f075e1-3a91-f123-a796-cbfb10f9cab8 at gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>Here, for full size 90cm - 1m balloons it works out around $20 au
>helium
>per balloon, plus $2 balloon plus $5-10 average line loss.
>
>So a night session is around $30 au in costs on average, and only when
>conditions are right, otherwise you are wasting your time and $.
>
>The bigger the industrial bottle you can purchase the better the deal.
>Also you can negotiate price with the supplier, I cut my original
>
>offer price nearly in half as well is 25% off my rental. Recommended
>retail compared to a trade customer pricing has big pricing difference.
>
>In the USA you should be able to do it for $20 or less per balloon.
>Also
>using too big a balloon is wasting helium $ and increasing line break
>risk.
>
>I use difference inflation levels for each band 630m biggest to 80m
>smallest. If I re-use balloons, i only use them on 80m , which is the
>smaller inflation.
>
>A bigger balloon gets hit harder and creates much more line stress with
>sudden gusts. The advantage of using 3/4 w setups is if the break is at
>the
>
>1/4w point (trees house etc) the impedance change to the amp is not so
>dramatic and the LDMOS amp in low survives the event on swr trip.
>
>Watching the swr real-time on the SPE, and have a finger on the halt
>button has saved gear here. A sudden wind change and a 2nd story gutter
>contact can just
>
>blow the line at the contact point during TX, and its start again, but
>the amp remains good.
>
>As the line changes angle the swr changes with it, and with experience
>trouble can be avoided.
>
>The lift force should just be in excess of the total line weight, less
>than 2:1.
>
>
>vk4tux
>
>
>On 9/11/21 08:32, Mark - N5OT wrote:
>> > we used a 4-5' - "rubber"? balloon. (could've been latex or
>> something similar)
>>
>> So did I.? A 4 foot diameter balloon has 33-ish cubic feet of
>volume.?
>> Looks like Helium is running about $2 a cubic foot = $66 per use?
>>
>> Gad.? Too pricey for N5OT.
>>
>> 73 - Mark
>>
>>
>> On 11/8/2021 4:21 PM, Adrian wrote:
>>> Also the disposable party balloon bottles are a waste of $ and would
>>> only inflate 2 to 3 of the balloons here.
>>>
>>> Industrial gas supply is required to make it viable.
>>>
>>> "
>>>
>>> ABN 95 000 029 729
>>> Riverside Corporate Park
>>> 10 Julius Ave, North Ryde NSW 2113
>>> Tel: 131 262 www.boc.com<http://www.boc.com>
>>> Email: contact at boc.com
>>> 2nd June 2021
>>> Dear Adrian Fewster,
>>> BOC special offer on compressed gas for Adrian Fewster.
>>> Thank you for your enquiry regarding the supply of gases and
>>> equipment from BOC Limited. Our customers
>>> are assured of BOC's genuine commitment to providing premium gas
>>> products and services in addition to
>>> ongoing technical support, and the convenience of our large national
>>> distribution network.
>>> Pricing for products which are purchased by you but which are not
>>> listed in the special offer pricing table
>>> below will be charged at BOC's standard or list prices for each such
>>> individual product as varied from time
>>> to time unless otherwise agreed. The gas pricing for the products
>>> listed in the special offer pricing table
>>> below will be varied in proportion to changes in BOC's standard
>>> prices for each individual product and the
>>> rental pricing will vary in line with BOC's standard charges unless
>>> otherwise agreed. This does not apply to
>>> prices for LPG, Refrigerant, Helium and Acetylene products which
>will
>>> vary in line with Supplier increases as
>>> they are incurred.
>>> All prices below are GST exclusive. Price may vary if purchased from
>>> a different BOC Gas & Gear or Gas
>>> Agent.
>>> Gas CodeDescriptionCylinder
>>> Volume
>>> Annual
>>> Quantity
>>> Delivered
>>> Price**
>>> Rental (per
>>> day)##
>>> 124GBALLOON GAS G SIZE7.1m31$398.31$0.6822
>>> For refrigerant products a refrigerant reclaim and fluoro activity
>>> levy of $2.38/kg also applies.
>>> ** Where a standard local delivery option is available
>>> ## Rental Pricing is described as Service Charges in BOC's General
>>> Terms and Conditions of Supply
>>> Rental Pricing
>>> Cylinder CodeRental (per day)
>>> 'G' Size$0.6822
>>> You may accept the special offer pricing above in the manner set out
>>> in the last paragraph of this letter. By
>>> accepting the special offer pricing above, you warrant that you do
>>> not have a binding exclusive supply
>>> arrangement with another supplier for any or all of the products
>>> listed in the special offer pricing table
>>> above (or for products substantially similar to those listed)
>>> applicable to your site(s) where the products are
>>> to be used.
>>> The Agreement so formed between BOC and you for the supply of the
>>> products listed in the special offer
>>> pricing table above will consist of the terms and conditions set out
>>> in this special offer pricing letter
>>> together with the BOC General Terms and Conditions of Supply. (as
>>> amended from time to time) (accessible
>>> from our website (www.boc.com.au<http://www.boc.com.au>)).
>>> Under this Agreement we will supply and you will purchase all of
>your
>>> requirements for the products
>>> covered by this Agreement. This Agreement will commence on the date
>>> of formal acceptance and continues
>>> until you or we terminate it by giving a minimum of 6 (six) months'
>>> notice expiring at the end of the
>>> minimum period of 1year(s) or by either party giving a minimum of 1
>>> (one) months' notice after the expiry
>>> of the minimum period, or until it is terminated under the BOC
>>> General Terms and Conditions of Supply.
>>> At BOC we believe that our business is here to help your business so
>>> if you have any queries please feel
>>> free to get in touch with me at jamie-lee.palelei at boc.com.
>>> This offer will be loaded to your customer account within two
>>> business days. "
>>>
>>>
>>> vk4tux
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/11/21 07:54, W7TMT - Patrick wrote:
>>>> Regarding the helium?
>>>>
>>>> Be advised the gas used by the party stores these days is almost
>>>> always a mixture and not pure helium. That?s means considerably
>less
>>>> lift. You?ll likely need to source the good stuff from a industrial
>>>> gas supplier.
>>>>
>>>> W7TMT
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Topband<topband-bounces+w7tmt=outlook.com at contesting.com> on
>>>> behalf of Mark - N5OT<r-emails at n5ot.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 1:17:53 PM
>>>> To: TopBand List<topband at contesting.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>>>>
>>>> Been There Done That
>>>>
>>>> You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift. One
>would
>>>> think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a
>balloon
>>>> full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful
>about
>>>> the
>>>> weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
>>>> helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all
>that.
>>>>
>>>> Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out
>is,
>>>> after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the
>air.
>>>>
>>>> I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift
>mine.
>>>>
>>>> And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas.? I thought it was a
>lot
>>>> of money 20 years ago.? Rumor has it, it has not gone down in
>price.
>>>>
>>>> The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
>>>>
>>>> The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire
>>>> which
>>>> popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple
>>>> minutes of
>>>> testing it out.? Or something.? It popped on a clear calm day but
>under
>>>> Full Power.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, that wrecked my day.? I decided it wasn't fun any more and
>have
>>>> been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
>>>>
>>>> I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
>>>> since then.
>>>>
>>>> Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons.? I think I got mine
>from
>>>> a party supply store.? It was not mylar.
>>>>
>>>> Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
>>>>
>>>> Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
>>>> A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
>>>> That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
>>>> 132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
>>>>
>>>> A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical
>>>> made of
>>>> #18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
>>>>
>>>> But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
>>>>
>>>> Now I'm having nightmares again.
>>>>
>>>> 73 - Mark N5OT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
>>>>> Greetings All
>>>>>
>>>>> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>>>>> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>>>>> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
>>>>> _________________
>>>>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband? - Topband
>>>>> Reflector
>>>> _________________
>>>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband? - Topband
>>>> Reflector
>>>> _________________
>>>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband? - Topband
>>>> Reflector
>>> _________________
>>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>>> Reflector
>>
>> _________________
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>> Reflector
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Subject: Digest Footer
>
>_______________________________________________
>Topband mailing list
>Topband at contesting.com
>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of Topband Digest, Vol 227, Issue 8
>***************************************
>
>_________________
>Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>Reflector
>_________________
>Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>Reflector
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