[TowerTalk] Stacked Beams, L-Networks, Matching Harnesses, Relative Costs

[K7GCO@aol.com]

Thanks for the good contribution Michael,
 ********(Jay: He like's L Networks and found more bandwidth than a T also)

 Ken would like us to believe he has a $10.00 solution to the tuner I
 think, we have not seen what it is he is selling yet. But it seems to be
 "a tuner of some type".
***********Jay: Let me make something very clear.  I'M NOT SELLING ANYTHING 
ON TT OR ANYWHERE--YOU ARE.  I ONLY SUGGEST INEXPENSIVE CONCEPTS THAT I AND 
OTHERS FIND VERY EFFECTIVE.  If they up-stage any proudcts for sale of yours 
that's tough!  You know exactly what the "tuner of some type is" as I 
described it to you a couple of times.  You put a very "deceptive spin on 
your Poo Pooing."  These  inexpensive and simple concepts seems to upset you 
financially more than any other way?  You keep ignoring the technical 
aspects.  

I've given a wealth of information away FREE OF CHARGE on TT (as others have) 
and other places.  My handouts at Convention Talks like Dayton ON ALL MY 
TUNERS for example can run many pages and I pay for reproduction costs.  My 
Dayton Audio Talk Handout now runs 60 pages at about $5 each--free of charge 
(reproduction donations accepted).  I was asked one time "why I gave away 
information and gave talks (over 450 of them)."  I said "I humbly believe 
everyone is entitled to my opinion" (just kidding)  I did the necessry 
research to create one of some validity.  

**********I have given away and traded parts, antennas and tuners to friends, 
have purchased a bunch of swtiches and coils over the years and have a good 
supply.  I haven't purchased any in the last 5 years other than for others 
when I get a good price of $5 or less. Typical variables Xc's I use for 
L-Networks are 100 uufd of 1/8"spacing +/- are are normally around $15.  Once 
in a while I get one for $3. AM BC 3 gang variables cost around 50 cents and 
I use them extensively.  They work just fine in L's in low Z applications of 
up to 250W.  I even have a way of removing plates in a "certain stagered way" 
that results in about 65 uufd per gang and adequate spacing for Hi-Z loads 
and no arcing.  Not bad for 50 cents.  You have to learn to be "creative" in 
parts selection and modifications.  Hams learned to do that in the 
30's&40's--of the last Century.  My allowance was 5 cents a day.  In an L 
Network if more than 100 uufd was needed, I paralleled a fixed 100 uufd or 
more Xc with a cheap knife switch (Philmore--not RS).  I found many deals in 
Dayton, like 25 variable inductors that normally sell for around $15-$25 for 
$3 each.  I purchased 20 of the Johnson Match Box 275W variables here in 
Seattle for $3 each--Nye Viking Surplus.  There are bargins all over.  It's 
like the stock market--you just have to know where to look, when to buy and 
sell.  I've had over 60 years practice.  You don't seem to know how to buy.  
It reflects on your prices.  Would you believe I don't hoard stuff--I get it 
just so those damn hoarders don't get it.   I use to and still do buy a lot 
of RF ammeters also.  I want to make it very clear that Hams can get 
neceasary parts for L Networks for $10 if they regularly check the flea 
markets--even today.  I suggest you learn how to shop for parts.

**********You charge for your products and technical advice--I don't.  You 
Poo Poo concepts that compete with your products on TT with ABSLUTELY NO 
KNOWLEDGE of how well the systems work or apparantly have the ability to 
figure out how, know what they look like or have used them and dig your self 
into "credibility holes" about the cost just for one of what I use as is 
clearly illustrated above.  I have never sold products for a profit to hams 
anywhere.  One result of all this is--I have just decided to do so for the 
first time.  I have a lathe, mill, will have a complete workshop again and 
was in the Mfg and Quality Assurance Business.  I can make prototypes real 
fast for the Mfgs that now want to market them.  Now you will have 
competition.  

*********Further more the $10 figure I quoted was mainly for another very 
simple design for "Driving Stacked Beams."  It's a simple harness that 
attaches to a coax switch in the shack I came up with some 50 years ago that 
allows the A/B/AB test all at 1:1 SWR and it has a huge design bonus.  I get 
a boast in SWR bandwidth when both are used.  No other system like this I 
know of does this quite this way.  Most everyone in the 30's, 40's & 50's 
always used both of stacked beams all the time and I found that was a mistake 
on the first stacked system I used way back then.  There are DXer's that rave 
about the simplicity of this "Switching Harness" and what it does.  I told 
you of it some time ago, you didn't even awkowledge it and apparently weren't 
interested--you don't want to sel it.  Now when I mentioned it as a solution 
for stacked Skip Logs, you criticize the price (not the peformance) of the 
Harness and the L when I recommend it on TT.  Since you keep inferring I'm so 
secret with everything which isn't true in any way, I have Big News.

********The "World Wide K7GCO Information Service" (just kidding) is offering 
anyone info on how to make this unique switching harness for stacked beams.  
It takes 1 coax switch, 1 coax barrel, 3-Tee's, 6 PL 259s and adaptors for 2 
1/4 WL RG-59's and one 1/4 wave stub of RG-8 for 1 KW levels.  No moving 
parts except the coax switch.  With the cost of connectors over the counter 
now it will cost more than $10 but it's still a good price for what it does.  
I recently purchased 100 PL 259's for 25 cents each.  Other phasings are 
easily done with a coax switch that adds certain lengths of coax.  On future 
estimates I will use over the counter prices.  I just assumed experienced 
hams know how to buy.

**********For this very useful "K7GCO Stacked Beam Switching and Matching 
Harness"--send me a SASE and $2 for repo costs.  I'll keep everyone on a list 
of other circuits when I get access to all my papers again and when new, 
inexpensive and simple concepts deserve coverage for the "Retiree Market".  I 
can send pictures and schematics of my tuners when I get my scanner hooked 
up.  If after using the Matching Harness and you feel compelled to send an 
"appreciation donation" (some actually have) in a check, cash, gold, stocks 
and bonds or a case of good wine--feel free.  It will unlock the K7GCO Goodie 
Box for more inexpensive innovations for Students, Retiree's or other spies 
and critics with limited budgets.  Hold off until I can get it printed and 
I'll give an address.  E-mail me to let me know how many to print up.  

*******Jay I heard your StackMatch cost $500--maybe less.  I don't sell 
anything on TT.  I just give away innovative ideas for those who would like 
to try them.  I have used everything I have ever suggested.  Since 
information on TT is FREE, the contributors have no obligation to provide 
"Endless Requests for Engineering Data" as you and another have and then get 
upset, Poo Poo and very cleverly reticule when it's not provided.  When you 
are in the Mfg business, you have inferred and should be able to do the 
simple stuff yourself.  If you need further informaton you can't derive 
yourself--it's a good idea ask for it first, try it and then do your Poo 
Pooing if you feel it's justified.  In the future send me a $1000 retainer 
fee and we will talk until I feel it needs to be "refreshed."  You see "Poo 
Pooing get expensive."  I've sent material to many others free.    

 
 As you point out even a ceramic RF switch can arc easily at 1 kW levels.
******** In tuners where a Hi-E can be developed I use "skipped contacts" on 
the swtiches.  It works great--no arcing.  You take your "Switch Deficiency 
Shots" very cleverly don't you when switches aren't the main subject?  It's 
totally uncalled for.  Further more I told you previously I don't need or use 
any swtiches in a dedicated system where the Zload is very stable and I have 
no need to change L configurations.  Why did you ignore that in your Poo 
Pooing?  I'm able to run more power with L Network circuits as it's a non 
resonant circuit.  They occupy less space also.  Try some and get aquainted 
with them.
  
 The last RF switch I purchased at Dayton was a $150 RF switch with 6
 positions. It cost me $45 and I thought it was a bargain. It went into a
 Donated SB220 that had arced when we "beefed up" the HV supply. Alot of
 modification was needed to move all the tuned input coils, (work done by
 a good friend who loves working on amps). But we now get about 1800
 watts out on all bands with it.  Not bad for a couple of tired 500Zs.
 *******This is not the main subject.

 The T network solution vs L netork is moot when the values are
 adjustable, Since you can tweak the L or C.  But if you have just fixed
 values, a T network can have more useful SWR bandwidth if you choose
 values to compensate for the frequency.
********Your point is very weak as no one uses fixed components in a tuner. 
A T has 3 knobs to adjust.  An L has 2.  I pointed out to you before that I 
use a technique of having both the L & C on the same shaft.  For every turn 
of the coil, the capacitor goes through it's range twice and creates a large 
number of Z matching combo's resulting is very fast "tune up's or touch ups." 
 "A 1 Knob to Adjust L Network."  k7gco
 
Merry Christmas, 
 Jay, WX0B
 
 Michael Tope wrote:
 > Jay and Ken, please see my comments below.
 > 73 de Mike, W4EF...................
 > > K7GCO@aol.com wrote:
 > > >    Jay: I described my "Universal L-Network Tuner" in a previous Post 
to
 > > >  match just about anything and it would be a good construction article 
for
 > > > one of the mags or some Mfg to make.   I have 4 L-Network combo's, 
Series L&C
 > > > and Shunt L&C "instantly selectable".  (No mfg has a tuner just like 
this)
 > 
 > Ken, take a look at the Ten-Tec 4229/229 Tuner. This tuner uses a single 
air variable
 > and 12uH roller inductor to form an L-network.  A ceramic switch is used 
to 
 > re-configure the tuner into two configuration for matching Hi-Z (>50 ohms) 
and Low-Z  
 > (<50 Ohms).  For each configuration there are a number a settings which 
switch in 
 > varying amounts of fixed capacitance to extend the frequency/matching 
range. My  
 > experience has been that this tuner will match just about anything. The 
only weak
 > point in the design is the size of the ceramic switch. Ten-Tec probably 
should have 
 > used a bigger switch as the one they choose arcs under some circumstances 
 > (I actually destroyed one of the switches with an SB-220). Of course my 
unit is 
 > around 15 years old, so perhaps they have made some improvements since 
then.
 > Lets see if you can do the above excersize?  (I think this lst sentance 
came from a 
 > previous post and is out of place.)
  ********Michael:  I have a Ten-Ten and know all about it.  It does great if 
not overloaded.  The 12 uH is a bit short of "uH's"  Unfortunately the switch 
contacts do need wider spacing--mine don't.  You mentioned "switchable fixed 
components" and it can "match just about anything."  It has some Gaps--mine 
doesn't.  It has 2 knobs to adjust.  The "1 Knob Tuner" I mentioned above has 
"continuously variable L&C's" in a very quick tune up system with NO GAPS.  I 
can also switch in Series L&C and Parallel L&C and it can't.  It's not bad 
otherwise.  

**********This all is not the issue.  A "Dedicated L-Network" I suggested 
without switches with flea market parts to match stacked beams or my Matching 
Harness can be built "very inexpensively and maintain a lower SWR"--is the 
issue.

 > > >  This I know, a well designed T network will outperform an L network 
for
 > > >  bandwidth even with fixed Resistive loads.
 > > >  ********That I have not observed in comparisions.  You also have "3 
KNOBS"
 > > >  (I have "1 Quick Knob.")
 > >
 > > > Here again we are not talking the same thing. I am talking FIXED 
networks. 
**********Why?  It serves no useful purpose.  That's not the original issue.  
Stick 
 to it.  Leave the T out of it.  The comparison to your UN UN and it cost and 
fixed setting limtations are the issue.

 > > Now do you agree? 
***********NO!  It's totally irrevalent!  The T has NO connection to the 
subject.

 >  >Let me rephrase my statement.
************Don't waste your time.

 > > A fixed network T can be designed to have a wider frequency range of
 > > function over a fixed L network.
 ************You are making the claim--You prove it.  If it works so good 
--use it.  A fixed inductor and capacitor is not used in any tuner unless 
it's for 1 frequency only.  Getting a fixed Xc of the right value can be a 
problem.  A fixed inductor is easy.  Variable L&C's can be adjusted to a 
"certain value" for a test or convenient use.  There is "nothing sacred" of 
so called "fixed values".   The L-Network works just great and you won't 
admit it.
 > >
 > > Its now becoming very obvious to me that you are talking about a GCO
 > > adjustable network.
 *********What took you so long to figure it out?  It was mentioned several 
times.
 > >
 > > > (2 C's-1L) to adjust with a T which is a big pain, a big time waster 
and a
 > > > step in the WRONG direction.  A pi and perhaps the T will attenuate
 > > > harmonics better due to the higher Q which generally means LESS
 > > > BANDWIDTH.  I have just "ONE KNOB TO TURN IN EITHER THE 
 > > > UNBLANCED OR BALANCED L NETWORKS  (with 2 variable L's&C's)
 > > > I HAVE."  I call that the "Ultimate in Simplicity" for Tuners.  I 
didn't say it
 > > > was simplier than your no adjustment UN UN's as you have no 
adjustements.
 > > > I have the least tuner adjustements and loss of any tuner.  There is a 
 > > > reactance sensing circuit maintaining "1:1 SWR" I'm going to use that 
 > > > makes adjustments--automatically.  How do you like them design apples?
 > > > k7GCO

 > I have both T type (Dentron) and L type (Ten-Tec) tuners in my shack. In 
either
 > case, searching for match point is a pain in the butt, so I generally put 
a piece
 > of paper behind the knobs and mark each band I going to use with a preset.
 > Both the T type and L-type Tuners have eaxactly three knobs to mark and 
adjust.
 > The T type has two air variable caps and a ceramic switch to select the
 > appropriate tap on the air core inductor. The L-type has one air variable 
cap, a roller
 > inductor, and a ceramic switch to select the L configuration and the 
amount of fixed
 > padding capacitance. In either case, once the presets are marked, it takes 
a few
 > seconds to switch bands. In both cases losses seem to be minimal as I 
generally
 > observe little if any self heating of the network components when running 
1 KW.
 > Based upon my limited anecdotal observations of the two tuners, my 
preference
 > is towards the L-network. It seems to have a wider matching range (there 
are some
 > loads I just can't seem to match on the high bands with the T network), 
but this
 > is easily explained by the fact that the L-network has the roller inductor 
whereas
 > the T uses a finite number of taps. The L-network seems to be a little 
better in
 > terms of bandwidth, but admittedly, I have never set them down side by side
 > and done a good scientific comparison test.
*********Right on!  Premarking settings is a necessity.  You have 2 knobs--I 
have just 
    1 and no switches in "dedicated configurations."  You preferences to the 
L are 
     also right on.
 > > >   
 > > > Your doubts of practicality and time predictions of working out the
 > > > design or whatever you were trying to say on what I have, are 
unjustified 
 > > > as you have not seen what I have or how it works.
 > > >
 > > >  I have made lots of L and T networks. They work on one band and must 
be
 > > >  adjusted to work over an octave yet alone 4 octaves of frequency.
 > > >  ********You still haven't seen what I have.  I have said serval times 
I need
 > > > only ONE configuration for the application discussed here with a 
slight touch
 > > > up over the range but I can always obtain "absolute 1:1 SWR" at any
 > > > frequency--you can't.  The configuration is the same REGARDLESS 
 > > > OF FREQUENCY.  Take a 25 ohm load and using the correct L-Network 
 > > > configuration and match 25 ohms over 4 octaves.  The configurations 
stays the 
 > > > same, only the reactance values of each component change.  Case closed.
 > > > K7GCO 
 > 
 > In a contest, if I had the choice between living with a VSWR slightly 
greater than 1:1
 > and having to touch up an knob every time I changed bands, I would go for 
the
 > former.
 ********A single calibrated knob is a small price to pay for 1:1 SWR on any 
frequency.  You take your clever swipes every way you can even grabbing at 
straws, don't you.
 > > >
 > > > Jay you have been sounding like W8JI who nit picks everyones sytems 
just to
 > > > intimidate them to get them to give him more information at their 
expense and
 > > > time because he can't understand what he's told and doesn't know how to
 > > > derive it himself.  He bad mouth the Match Box and I defended it 
justifiably
 > > > as had didn't know what he was taking about.  Everytime I corrected 
him he
 > > > called it a "Persoanl Attack".
 > >
 > > I am aware you have run off JI from this reflector.  But I am not trying
 > > to nit pick on you Ken, you started this by nit picking on me. I am
 > > still waiting for an apology or at least a comment on the accusation
 > > you made concerning my StackMatch product being compared to "an indian
 > > guide who stole somebody's money by taking them for a ride".  I asked
 > > for an explanation from you giving you the benefit of the doubt. But
 > > none came.
*********Correction!  I didn't even know of your StackMatch before I 
suggested 2 inexpensive and highly "financially competitive ways" to feed 
stacked beams.  You brought it to my attention and nit picked what I 
suggested.  At the time is seemed like a fit when the relative costs were 
compared and still does.  If it makes you feel any better, and I can get you 
on to "focused comparisons", it might have been "a stretch" to my and others 
retirement budgets.  But 2 different matching sytems that can be assembled 
for $10 each if you're creative, is a fair cost jump compared to the higher 
cost of your UN UN.  I was told it's $500, has relays and covers a wide 
range.  So does just one L-Network configuration without switches and relays. 
  
 
 > When I suggested a simple test that would settle this argument, you never
 > responded.  
 *********You're the one who needs the education and wants to know.  I'm not 
obligated to run tests on inappropriate circuits just to satisfy you.  Can't 
you do it--you infered you could?  Yet you keep suggesting I should.  If you 
want to know, you run the tests yourself or send me a $1000 retainer.  The 
comparison of a T&L with fixed or even variable components is not the issue.  
"The cost and simplicity of my 2 systems which I justifed is a bug in your 
side."  The bandwidth and the converience of the "1 Knob L Tuner" I have used 
for over 50 years is a very useful concept.  It works just great for 
everyone--except you.  I just talked again with a Mfg who wants to market 
these concepts.  Now if we can find flea market parts it will help keep the 
price down.  Obtaining 1:1 SWR at any frequency is a great concept although 
"some SWR" is acceptable for pi-network finals.    k7gco 

 Jay Terleski
 WX0B - Array Solutions
 www.arraysolutions.com





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