From k7hph@xmission.com  Sun Jul  1 22:48:11 2001
From: k7hph@xmission.com (K7HPH)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 15:48:11 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
Message-ID: <007001c10277$8684d2e0$7da2fea9@xmission.com>

I have been looking for an AC winch to drive my HDX-555 Crank Up. Aside from
the $1,500.00 US Tower Solution, I have seen an AC winch advertised in the
Glen Martin Engineering Catalog that looks like it might do the job.  The
cost is under $600.00 and the 4000 lb capacity should be adequate for the
HDX-555. The problem that I am having is that whenever  I request detailed
specs and mounting dimensions from GM, I only get capacity and cost; which
is what the catalog already shows. Does anyone on the reflector know the
details of this winch? Did Glen Martin have it at Dayton this year? I would
be interested in getting additional information if it is available.

Thanks for the help. 73, Mark...



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From Rick.Wells@compaq.com  Sun Jul  1 00:28:13 2001
From: Rick.Wells@compaq.com (Wells, Rick)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 18:28:13 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] telephone poles - SELF INSTALLATION
Message-ID: <1C5CF16B7070B24BA830BF882F8AAAB0069490@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>

This is how I did it many years ago.  I've got two 40 footers.

Look for pole replacement projects around your town.  Ask crew working
on a street if I can take a couple of the old poles.  Yup. No problem.
On the big end of the pole, strap, rope, chain a contractor's wheelbarel
with pneumatic tire.  On the other end, four guys lay it in a pickup
truck.  Drive it home, slowly, with somebody driving behind you.  Dig a
12" diameter hole as deep as you can possibly go with a post hole
digger, probably 4-5'.  Hire a small backhoe for a couple of hours. Put
a chain on the pole, just off center.  Have machine lift it, drop it in
hole.  Pack it carefully with crushed stone with a large bar.

73,
W2RW


-----Original Message-----
From: molenda [mailto:molenda@buffnet.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 9:39 AM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] telephone poles


Most all of our poles I am told are just about 40' here in Western New
York
.  I am also told that there are contractors who work for the utility
company's who will install the pole for you.  I would be happy to learn
more
on this idea    KB2HUK     John

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From k4bet@bellsouth.net  Sun Jul  1 01:30:06 2001
From: k4bet@bellsouth.net (Paul McInnish - K4BET)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 20:30:06 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
References: <000701c101b8$01f7c5b0$13a60304@n9iww>
Message-ID: <00ba01c101c4$fa5448d0$6401a8c0@PawPawsPC>

Kevin... help us out... found some winches on WW Grainger site but not what
you are referring to.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Adam, Webz By design" <n9iww2@verizon.net>
To: "'Ed Wolf'" <n3ue@arrl.net>; "'K7HPH'" <k7hph@xmission.com>;
"'TowerTalk'" <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 6:57 PM
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch


| WW Grainger has one that is used on the hygain tower I believe it sells
| for around 299.00 go grainger.com check LD winch I know if want to
| replace mine that is where I can get it.
|
|
| N9IWW
| Kevin Adam
| 1239 W. Till Rd.
| Fort Wayne IN. 46825
| 219-490-7312
| http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
| n9iww@mail.com
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ed Wolf
| Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 4:58 PM
| To: K7HPH; TowerTalk
| Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
|
| I used the winch from "superwinch"
| Whatever you use, IT HAS to have the braking capability to hold the
| tower UP! You will be hard pressed to find any mfgr. to give the
| complete specs/details if you tell them what you want it for.
| Liabilities and all that. there is descriptions and pics on my web site.
| Hope? it helps?
|
|
| Ed Wolf - ars:N3UE - NA40+TR.PA
| http://members.home.net/wolfie132/
| http://www.breezeshooters.net
| http://www.breezeshooters.com
|
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of K7HPH
| Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 5:48 PM
| To: towertalk@contesting.com
| Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
|
|
| I have been looking for an AC winch to drive my HDX-555 Crank Up. Aside
| from
| the $1,500.00 US Tower Solution, I have seen an AC winch advertised in
| the
| Glen Martin Engineering Catalog that looks like it might do the job.
| The
| cost is under $600.00 and the 4000 lb capacity should be adequate for
| the
| HDX-555. The problem that I am having is that whenever  I request
| detailed
| specs and mounting dimensions from GM, I only get capacity and cost;
| which
| is what the catalog already shows. Does anyone on the reflector know the
| details of this winch? Did Glen Martin have it at Dayton this year? I
| would
| be interested in getting additional information if it is available.
|
| Thanks for the help. 73, Mark...
|
|
|
| List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
| Call us
| for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
| to
| 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
| HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
|
| -----
| FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
|
|
| List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
| Call us
| for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
| to
| 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
| HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
|
| -----
| FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
|
|
| List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
| for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
| 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
|
| -----
| FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
|



List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
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From w9jcc@juno.com  Sun Jul  1 04:38:54 2001
From: w9jcc@juno.com (Frank C. Travanty)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 22:38:54 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
Message-ID: <20010630.223855.-16302829.1.w9jcc@juno.com>

Mark,
My next door neighbor and both have HDX-555's and recently installed the
US Tower electric winch. As for the price, the Amatuer catalogs were
advertising ~ $900.00. (about 200.00 below the UST list price at the
time). I'm assuming there was a price hike after Dayton? We got a Dayton
special for which was only a couple of hundred dollars more than other
types we had priced at a local farm & Industrial suppliers.  As for the
shipping, UST advertises a shipping weight of 155 lbs. I weighed mine
while still in the crate, and it weighed ~ 130 lbs, so I think it could
be UPS shippable, to save a few bucks. Bottom line most of the safety and
mounting concerns of going with an alternate winch go away. It has a real
husky worm gear, & one HP AC motor. Comes with the power cable and
controll switch & 110 volt AC plug installed. From the way its built, I'm
sure the capacity is limited by the strength of the cable. I'm not trying
to plug UST, only happy I went the route I did. Installation a snap -
consists of 4 bolts to mount the winch to the existing holes in the tower
& hooking up the cable. (need a strong guy to hold it in place for the
first bolts)

73 & good luck,
Frank

On Sun, 1 Jul 2001 15:48:11 -0600 "K7HPH" <k7hph@xmission.com> writes:
> I have been looking for an AC winch to drive my HDX-555 Crank Up. 
> Aside from
> the $1,500.00 US Tower Solution, I have seen an AC winch advertised 
> in the
> Glen Martin Engineering Catalog that looks like it might do the job. 
>  The
> cost is under $600.00 and the 4000 lb capacity should be adequate 
> for the
> HDX-555. The problem that I am having is that whenever  I request 
> detailed
> specs and mounting dimensions from GM, I only get capacity and cost; 
> which
> is what the catalog already shows. Does anyone on the reflector know 
> the
> details of this winch? Did Glen Martin have it at Dayton this year? 
> I would
> be interested in getting additional information if it is available.
> 
> Thanks for the help. 73, Mark...
> 
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
> Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers 
> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> 

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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From N7TR@rnodx.org  Sun Jul  1 05:55:35 2001
From: N7TR@rnodx.org (Rich Hallman - N7TR)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 21:55:35 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Aluminum Masts...?
Message-ID: <001B919EDA62D51184DE00508B8FABB7E40B@HOME-SERVER>

I'm installing some 6 meter and 2 meter Stacks and was wondering what was
the recommended type Aluminum Masts to be used....

2 inch OD  .250 wall  6061-6....ect??

Wondering what is currently being used out there.....

Of course if this were an HF Stack.....My selection would be simple...Chrome
Moly.  ;-)

73  Rich

******************************
Rich Hallman - N7TR
Reno, Nevada
http://www.n7tr.com

N7TR DX-Cluster Access:
telnet://n7tr.qrq.com




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From n9iww2@verizon.net  Sun Jul  1 06:22:11 2001
From: n9iww2@verizon.net (Kevin Adam, Webz By design)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 00:22:11 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
In-Reply-To: <00ba01c101c4$fa5448d0$6401a8c0@PawPawsPC>
Message-ID: <000401c101ed$c939a640$13a60304@n9iww>

4z327 page 2317 is the one that is one my hygain tower price has gone up
since I last looked at it but it’s the one 120v hygain made up box with
relay in it to do the up down control remote nice part about it has
lever clutch so incase of no power just move the release lever let the
tower down unless it's in a bind.
If you need a copy of the manual I have it.

N9IWW
Kevin Adam
1239 W. Till Rd.
Fort Wayne IN. 46825
219-490-7312
http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
n9iww@mail.com


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Paul McInnish -
K4BET
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 7:30 PM
To: n9iww2@verizon.net; 'Ed Wolf'; 'K7HPH'; 'TowerTalk'
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch

Kevin... help us out... found some winches on WW Grainger site but not
what
you are referring to.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Adam, Webz By design" <n9iww2@verizon.net>
To: "'Ed Wolf'" <n3ue@arrl.net>; "'K7HPH'" <k7hph@xmission.com>;
"'TowerTalk'" <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 6:57 PM
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch


| WW Grainger has one that is used on the hygain tower I believe it
sells
| for around 299.00 go grainger.com check LD winch I know if want to
| replace mine that is where I can get it.
|
|
| N9IWW
| Kevin Adam
| 1239 W. Till Rd.
| Fort Wayne IN. 46825
| 219-490-7312
| http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
| n9iww@mail.com
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ed Wolf
| Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 4:58 PM
| To: K7HPH; TowerTalk
| Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
|
| I used the winch from "superwinch"
| Whatever you use, IT HAS to have the braking capability to hold the
| tower UP! You will be hard pressed to find any mfgr. to give the
| complete specs/details if you tell them what you want it for.
| Liabilities and all that. there is descriptions and pics on my web
site.
| Hope? it helps?
|
|
| Ed Wolf - ars:N3UE - NA40+TR.PA
| http://members.home.net/wolfie132/
| http://www.breezeshooters.net
| http://www.breezeshooters.com
|
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of K7HPH
| Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 5:48 PM
| To: towertalk@contesting.com
| Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
|
|
| I have been looking for an AC winch to drive my HDX-555 Crank Up.
Aside
| from
| the $1,500.00 US Tower Solution, I have seen an AC winch advertised in
| the
| Glen Martin Engineering Catalog that looks like it might do the job.
| The
| cost is under $600.00 and the 4000 lb capacity should be adequate for
| the
| HDX-555. The problem that I am having is that whenever  I request
| detailed
| specs and mounting dimensions from GM, I only get capacity and cost;
| which
| is what the catalog already shows. Does anyone on the reflector know
the
| details of this winch? Did Glen Martin have it at Dayton this year? I
| would
| be interested in getting additional information if it is available.
|
| Thanks for the help. 73, Mark...
|
|
|
| List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
| Call us
| for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
up
| to
| 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
| HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
|
| -----
| FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
|
|
| List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
| Call us
| for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
up
| to
| 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
| HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
|
| -----
| FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
|
|
| List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call
us
| for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
up
to
| 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
|
| -----
| FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
|



List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call us
for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
www.ChampionRadio.com</A>

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List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
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From dcoolica@planet.eon.net  Sun Jul  1 05:19:36 2001
From: dcoolica@planet.eon.net (Denis Coolican)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 23:19:36 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] FD 40M Beams
References: <96.1653606b.286f8b32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B3EA4D8.1475EA43@planet.eon.net>


Well if the subject is 40 meter beams you can look at our homebrew 5
element full sized beam with a boom length of 60 ft. We did use it in
the last FD as a 2E entry. We were trying to make the best of what we
had  and the least of what we didn't have!

Matter of fact we built two of these OWA 40 meter antennas. One is at
VE6FI and the other is at VE6JY.

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/telwest/ve6fi.html

Denis Ve6AQ/ VE6FI

List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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From k4bet@bellsouth.net  Sun Jul  1 13:18:46 2001
From: k4bet@bellsouth.net (Paul McInnish - K4BET)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 08:18:46 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
References: <000401c101ed$c939a640$13a60304@n9iww>
Message-ID: <00ea01c10227$fa3b87b0$6401a8c0@PawPawsPC>

Kevin... did you use the 50' of 7/32" cable that came on it?  Or did you
replace the cable by using that came on the tower?

Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Adam, Webz By design" <n9iww2@verizon.net>
To: "'Paul McInnish - K4BET'" <k4bet@bellsouth.net>; "'Ed Wolf'"
<n3ue@arrl.net>; "'K7HPH'" <k7hph@xmission.com>; "'TowerTalk'"
<towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 1:22 AM
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch


| 4z327 page 2317 is the one that is one my hygain tower price has gone up
| since I last looked at it but it's the one 120v hygain made up box with
| relay in it to do the up down control remote nice part about it has
| lever clutch so incase of no power just move the release lever let the
| tower down unless it's in a bind.
| If you need a copy of the manual I have it.
|
| N9IWW
| Kevin Adam
| 1239 W. Till Rd.
| Fort Wayne IN. 46825
| 219-490-7312
| http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
| n9iww@mail.com
|
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Paul McInnish -
| K4BET
| Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 7:30 PM
| To: n9iww2@verizon.net; 'Ed Wolf'; 'K7HPH'; 'TowerTalk'
| Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
|
| Kevin... help us out... found some winches on WW Grainger site but not
| what
| you are referring to.
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Kevin Adam, Webz By design" <n9iww2@verizon.net>
| To: "'Ed Wolf'" <n3ue@arrl.net>; "'K7HPH'" <k7hph@xmission.com>;
| "'TowerTalk'" <towertalk@contesting.com>
| Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 6:57 PM
| Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
|
|
| | WW Grainger has one that is used on the hygain tower I believe it
| sells
| | for around 299.00 go grainger.com check LD winch I know if want to
| | replace mine that is where I can get it.
| |
| |
| | N9IWW
| | Kevin Adam
| | 1239 W. Till Rd.
| | Fort Wayne IN. 46825
| | 219-490-7312
| | http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
| | n9iww@mail.com
| |
| | -----Original Message-----
| | From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| | [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ed Wolf
| | Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 4:58 PM
| | To: K7HPH; TowerTalk
| | Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
| |
| | I used the winch from "superwinch"
| | Whatever you use, IT HAS to have the braking capability to hold the
| | tower UP! You will be hard pressed to find any mfgr. to give the
| | complete specs/details if you tell them what you want it for.
| | Liabilities and all that. there is descriptions and pics on my web
| site.
| | Hope? it helps?
| |
| |
| | Ed Wolf - ars:N3UE - NA40+TR.PA
| | http://members.home.net/wolfie132/
| | http://www.breezeshooters.net
| | http://www.breezeshooters.com
| |
| |
| | -----Original Message-----
| | From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| | [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of K7HPH
| | Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 5:48 PM
| | To: towertalk@contesting.com
| | Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
| |
| |
| | I have been looking for an AC winch to drive my HDX-555 Crank Up.
| Aside
| | from
| | the $1,500.00 US Tower Solution, I have seen an AC winch advertised in
| | the
| | Glen Martin Engineering Catalog that looks like it might do the job.
| | The
| | cost is under $600.00 and the 4000 lb capacity should be adequate for
| | the
| | HDX-555. The problem that I am having is that whenever  I request
| | detailed
| | specs and mounting dimensions from GM, I only get capacity and cost;
| | which
| | is what the catalog already shows. Does anyone on the reflector know
| the
| | details of this winch? Did Glen Martin have it at Dayton this year? I
| | would
| | be interested in getting additional information if it is available.
| |
| | Thanks for the help. 73, Mark...
| |
| |
| |
| | List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
| | Call us
| | for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
| up
| | to
| | 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
| | HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| | www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
| |
| | -----
| | FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| | Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| | Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| | Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| |
| |
| | List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
| | Call us
| | for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
| up
| | to
| | 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
| | HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| | www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
| |
| | -----
| | FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| | Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| | Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| | Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| |
| |
| | List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
| Call
| us
| | for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
| up
| to
| | 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
| HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| | www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
| |
| | -----
| | FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| | Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| | Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| | Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| |
|
|
|
| List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
| Call us
| for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
| to
| 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
| HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
|
| -----
| FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
|
|
| List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
| for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
| 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
|
| -----
| FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
|



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for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
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From w9re@worldnet.att.net  Sun Jul  1 16:13:54 2001
From: w9re@worldnet.att.net (Mike Wetzel)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 10:13:54 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Thanks TT'ers
Message-ID: <NCBBIPEKMKEIENBFHFHJIEKNECAA.w9re@worldnet.att.net>

TT'ers

In the past few weeks I have asked 2 questions "Removing Oil from a motor"
and "Cutting large holes in aluminum".  I want to thank all that sent
suggestions.  Too numerous on "Oil removal" but on "Cutting large holes"
thanks to KI7WX, K3BHJ, K7GCO, N9IWW, Dan, KC4UZ and especially KB7WW who
sent me detailed messages and step by step instructions on doing it in a
lathe.  Thanks to everyone for their time.

Mike W9RE


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From n9iww2@verizon.net  Sun Jul  1 18:05:21 2001
From: n9iww2@verizon.net (Kevin Adam, Webz By design)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 12:05:21 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
In-Reply-To: <00ea01c10227$fa3b87b0$6401a8c0@PawPawsPC>
Message-ID: <000e01c10250$07a5cc30$13a60304@n9iww>

Its the 7/32 cable I just measured it and came out to 7/32" so that size
is just fine u=you notice that it has 2700 lb pull so lift 1500 easy.
 

N9IWW
Kevin Adam
1239 W. Till Rd.
Fort Wayne IN. 46825
219-490-7312
http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
n9iww@mail.com


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Paul McInnish -
K4BET
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 7:19 AM
To: n9iww2@verizon.net; 'Ed Wolf'; 'K7HPH'; 'TowerTalk'
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch

Kevin... did you use the 50' of 7/32" cable that came on it?  Or did you
replace the cable by using that came on the tower?

Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Adam, Webz By design" <n9iww2@verizon.net>
To: "'Paul McInnish - K4BET'" <k4bet@bellsouth.net>; "'Ed Wolf'"
<n3ue@arrl.net>; "'K7HPH'" <k7hph@xmission.com>; "'TowerTalk'"
<towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 1:22 AM
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch


| 4z327 page 2317 is the one that is one my hygain tower price has gone
up
| since I last looked at it but it's the one 120v hygain made up box
with
| relay in it to do the up down control remote nice part about it has
| lever clutch so incase of no power just move the release lever let the
| tower down unless it's in a bind.
| If you need a copy of the manual I have it.
|
| N9IWW
| Kevin Adam
| 1239 W. Till Rd.
| Fort Wayne IN. 46825
| 219-490-7312
| http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
| n9iww@mail.com
|
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Paul McInnish -
| K4BET
| Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 7:30 PM
| To: n9iww2@verizon.net; 'Ed Wolf'; 'K7HPH'; 'TowerTalk'
| Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
|
| Kevin... help us out... found some winches on WW Grainger site but not
| what
| you are referring to.
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Kevin Adam, Webz By design" <n9iww2@verizon.net>
| To: "'Ed Wolf'" <n3ue@arrl.net>; "'K7HPH'" <k7hph@xmission.com>;
| "'TowerTalk'" <towertalk@contesting.com>
| Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 6:57 PM
| Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
|
|
| | WW Grainger has one that is used on the hygain tower I believe it
| sells
| | for around 299.00 go grainger.com check LD winch I know if want to
| | replace mine that is where I can get it.
| |
| |
| | N9IWW
| | Kevin Adam
| | 1239 W. Till Rd.
| | Fort Wayne IN. 46825
| | 219-490-7312
| | http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
| | n9iww@mail.com
| |
| | -----Original Message-----
| | From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| | [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ed Wolf
| | Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 4:58 PM
| | To: K7HPH; TowerTalk
| | Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
| |
| | I used the winch from "superwinch"
| | Whatever you use, IT HAS to have the braking capability to hold the
| | tower UP! You will be hard pressed to find any mfgr. to give the
| | complete specs/details if you tell them what you want it for.
| | Liabilities and all that. there is descriptions and pics on my web
| site.
| | Hope? it helps?
| |
| |
| | Ed Wolf - ars:N3UE - NA40+TR.PA
| | http://members.home.net/wolfie132/
| | http://www.breezeshooters.net
| | http://www.breezeshooters.com
| |
| |
| | -----Original Message-----
| | From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| | [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of K7HPH
| | Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 5:48 PM
| | To: towertalk@contesting.com
| | Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
| |
| |
| | I have been looking for an AC winch to drive my HDX-555 Crank Up.
| Aside
| | from
| | the $1,500.00 US Tower Solution, I have seen an AC winch advertised
in
| | the
| | Glen Martin Engineering Catalog that looks like it might do the job.
| | The
| | cost is under $600.00 and the 4000 lb capacity should be adequate
for
| | the
| | HDX-555. The problem that I am having is that whenever  I request
| | detailed
| | specs and mounting dimensions from GM, I only get capacity and cost;
| | which
| | is what the catalog already shows. Does anyone on the reflector know
| the
| | details of this winch? Did Glen Martin have it at Dayton this year?
I
| | would
| | be interested in getting additional information if it is available.
| |
| | Thanks for the help. 73, Mark...
| |
| |
| |
| | List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
| | Call us
| | for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers
-
| up
| | to
| | 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
| | HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| | www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
| |
| | -----
| | FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| | Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| | Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| | Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| |
| |
| | List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
| | Call us
| | for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers
-
| up
| | to
| | 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
| | HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| | www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
| |
| | -----
| | FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| | Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| | Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| | Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| |
| |
| | List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
| Call
| us
| | for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers
-
| up
| to
| | 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
| HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| | www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
| |
| | -----
| | FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| | Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| | Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| | Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| |
|
|
|
| List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
| Call us
| for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
up
| to
| 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
| HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
|
| -----
| FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
|
|
| List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call
us
| for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
up
to
| 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
|
| -----
| FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
|



List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call us
for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
www.ChampionRadio.com</A>

-----
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Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
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List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
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From Kf8od@aol.com  Sun Jul  1 18:05:33 2001
From: Kf8od@aol.com (Kf8od@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 13:05:33 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] 2:1 balun
Message-ID: <3b.16c4e457.2870b25d@aol.com>

I need a drawing for a 2:1 balun. Please respond direct to me.

73, Mike
KF8OD

List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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From molenda@buffnet.net  Sun Jul  1 18:31:11 2001
From: molenda@buffnet.net (molenda)
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 13:31:11 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] winch and tip over tower
Message-ID: <200107011735.NAA59522@buffnet4.buffnet.net>

Hi folks!  with all this talk of winches, what if I were to winch up my new
60 foot aluminum tower with tilt over base when I needed maintenance or when
a new antenna goes up ?  or should I still climb it .  it is a stand alone
tower ( no guys )  the tower is made by universal.   thanks for your input
John   KB2HUK

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From w5kp@swbell.net  Sun Jul  1 18:42:34 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 12:42:34 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
References: <000e01c10250$07a5cc30$13a60304@n9iww>
Message-ID: <004101c10255$370f2660$5220c1cf@jkdesktop>

All the electric vehicle and boat winches I've ever seen, including Warn,
SuperWinch, and others, come with numerous and emphatic red-letter warnings
about not using them for hoisting. I'm certainly not a rigging engineer, but
isn't there some significant difference between dragging 2700 lb of
rolling/sliding weight out of a mudhole, and lifting 2700 lb of dead weight
and holding it up indefinitely? Especially regarding the brake and cable
design required? Maybe I'm just chicken, but I'd sure recommend being
careful around that thing. I've already heard enough horror stories about
crankup towers, which I guess is why I'm going through the hassle of putting
up 45G instead.
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Adam, Webz By design <n9iww2@verizon.net>
To: 'Paul McInnish - K4BET' <k4bet@bellsouth.net>; 'Ed Wolf'
<n3ue@arrl.net>; 'K7HPH' <k7hph@xmission.com>; 'TowerTalk'
<towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 12:05 PM
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch


> Its the 7/32 cable I just measured it and came out to 7/32" so that size
> is just fine u=you notice that it has 2700 lb pull so lift 1500 easy.
>
>



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From PJPilot@aol.com  Sun Jul  1 18:46:18 2001
From: PJPilot@aol.com (PJPilot@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 13:46:18 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Wanted: a Triex  354 HD Crankup tower
Message-ID: <25.177cfb2b.2870bbea@aol.com>

Hi Folks,

Im looking to buy a used Triex 354 HD Tower.  I have ordered on from
First Call last October 2000 and they have not been able to ship the
one I ordered.

Anyone having one for sale or knowing where a used one is available, please 
advise.

Kindest Regards,
P. J. Spivack
pjpilot@aol.com

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From n2wb@arrl.net  Sun Jul  1 18:46:48 2001
From: n2wb@arrl.net (William F. Beyer Jr.)
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 13:46:48 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] RE; Question on Yaesu rotor
Message-ID: <3B3F6208.AD40599D@arrl.net>


Hello to Everyone on the List.......

Will a Yaesu G-2800SDX Rotor fit into a Tri-Ex LM -354 tower?
Abt,  five down into tower.....
--


William/N2WB




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From antipode@ne.mediaone.net  Sun Jul  1 22:16:08 2001
From: antipode@ne.mediaone.net (antipode)
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 14:16:08 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
References: <000e01c10250$07a5cc30$13a60304@n9iww> <004101c10255$370f2660$5220c1cf@jkdesktop>
Message-ID: <3B3F9317.6D7801E6@ne.mediaone.net>

Jerry,

I believe what they are concerned about with lifting is use in a
elevator application.  Many times people want to use these winches for a
people-lift application which can cause all kinds of problems if one
fails (lawsuits etc.).  Maybe there is some other issue at work here,
but it seems to me the limiting factor in raising a tower section(s) is
not only its lifting capacity, but its ability to safely brake/lock once
the sections are in place at a given height.

Bill Sievers
W5IQJ





"J. Kincade" wrote:
> 
> All the electric vehicle and boat winches I've ever seen, including Warn,
> SuperWinch, and others, come with numerous and emphatic red-letter warnings
> about not using them for hoisting. I'm certainly not a rigging engineer, but
> isn't there some significant difference between dragging 2700 lb of
> rolling/sliding weight out of a mudhole, and lifting 2700 lb of dead weight
> and holding it up indefinitely? Especially regarding the brake and cable
> design required? Maybe I'm just chicken, but I'd sure recommend being
> careful around that thing. I've already heard enough horror stories about
> crankup towers, which I guess is why I'm going through the hassle of putting
> up 45G instead.
> 73, Jerry W5KP
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kevin Adam, Webz By design <n9iww2@verizon.net>
> To: 'Paul McInnish - K4BET' <k4bet@bellsouth.net>; 'Ed Wolf'
> <n3ue@arrl.net>; 'K7HPH' <k7hph@xmission.com>; 'TowerTalk'
> <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 12:05 PM
> Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
> 
> > Its the 7/32 cable I just measured it and came out to 7/32" so that size
> > is just fine u=you notice that it has 2700 lb pull so lift 1500 easy.
> >
> >
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com

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From satcom@lava.net  Sun Jul  1 19:32:13 2001
From: satcom@lava.net (Stuart Browne)
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 08:32:13 -1000
Subject: [TowerTalk] RE; Question on Yaesu rotor
References: <3B3F6208.AD40599D@arrl.net>
Message-ID: <3B3F6CAD.667825AD@lava.net>

It fits in my LM-470 FB.

Stu WH6H

"William F. Beyer Jr." wrote:

> Hello to Everyone on the List.......
>
> Will a Yaesu G-2800SDX Rotor fit into a Tri-Ex LM -354 tower?
> Abt,  five down into tower.....
> --
>
> William/N2WB
>
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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From realex@flash.net  Sun Jul  1 19:35:23 2001
From: realex@flash.net (Bob Alexander)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 13:35:23 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 2:1 balun
In-Reply-To: <3b.16c4e457.2870b25d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIJFDFCIFMKGEEFNHOEGPCCAA.realex@flash.net>

MIke,
Since you did not specify narrow or broad band, Ill take the easy route and
say
make a choke balun out of a length of 75 ohm coax that is 1/4 wavelength
long at
the desired frequency. Connect the 100 ohm load to the end with the choke
and a 50 ohm
line to the other end.  Dont forget to account for velocity factor of the 75
ohm line.

73, Bob, W5AH


-----Original Message-----

I need a drawing for a 2:1 balun. Please respond direct to me.

73, Mike
KF8OD


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From K7LXC@aol.com  Sun Jul  1 20:12:57 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 15:12:57 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
Message-ID: <a0.169f3da9.2870d039@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/1/01 10:04:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
n9iww2@verizon.net writes:

> Its the 7/32 cable I just measured it and came out to 7/32" so that size
>  is just fine u=you notice that it has 2700 lb pull so lift 1500 easy.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "2700 lb pull". Is that breaking strength? 
If so, lifting 1500# is way overloading the cable. Typical wire rope safe 
working load applications are around 20% of ultimate breaking strength so it 
would be rated at 540# - a long way from 1500. 

    You might clarify some of these points.

Cheers,  Steve   K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From n9iww2@verizon.net  Sun Jul  1 20:32:14 2001
From: n9iww2@verizon.net (Kevin Adam, Webz By design)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 14:32:14 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
In-Reply-To: <3B3F9317.6D7801E6@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <000001c10264$89134090$13a60304@n9iww>

It will lift the tower plus 225lbs of antenna and rotator.

N9IWW
Kevin Adam
1239 W. Till Rd.
Fort Wayne IN. 46825
219-490-7312
http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
n9iww@mail.com


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of antipode
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 4:16 PM
To: J. Kincade
Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch

Jerry,

I believe what they are concerned about with lifting is use in a
elevator application.  Many times people want to use these winches for a
people-lift application which can cause all kinds of problems if one
fails (lawsuits etc.).  Maybe there is some other issue at work here,
but it seems to me the limiting factor in raising a tower section(s) is
not only its lifting capacity, but its ability to safely brake/lock once
the sections are in place at a given height.

Bill Sievers
W5IQJ





"J. Kincade" wrote:
> 
> All the electric vehicle and boat winches I've ever seen, including
Warn,
> SuperWinch, and others, come with numerous and emphatic red-letter
warnings
> about not using them for hoisting. I'm certainly not a rigging
engineer, but
> isn't there some significant difference between dragging 2700 lb of
> rolling/sliding weight out of a mudhole, and lifting 2700 lb of dead
weight
> and holding it up indefinitely? Especially regarding the brake and
cable
> design required? Maybe I'm just chicken, but I'd sure recommend being
> careful around that thing. I've already heard enough horror stories
about
> crankup towers, which I guess is why I'm going through the hassle of
putting
> up 45G instead.
> 73, Jerry W5KP
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kevin Adam, Webz By design <n9iww2@verizon.net>
> To: 'Paul McInnish - K4BET' <k4bet@bellsouth.net>; 'Ed Wolf'
> <n3ue@arrl.net>; 'K7HPH' <k7hph@xmission.com>; 'TowerTalk'
> <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 12:05 PM
> Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
> 
> > Its the 7/32 cable I just measured it and came out to 7/32" so that
size
> > is just fine u=you notice that it has 2700 lb pull so lift 1500
easy.
> >
> >
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
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> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
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From K7GCO@aol.com  Mon Jul  2 00:12:41 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 19:12:41 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] 2:1 balun
Message-ID: <49.d4c99ec.28710869@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/1/01 11:38:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, realex@flash.net 
writes:
<< MIke,
 Since you did not specify narrow or broad band, Ill take the easy route and
 say make a choke balun out of a length of 75 ohm coax that is 1/4 wavelength
 long at the desired frequency. Connect the 100 ohm load to the end with the 
choke
 and a 50 ohm line to the other end.  Dont forget to account for velocity 
factor of
  the 75 ohm line.
 73, Bob, W5AH
  -----Original Message-----
 I need a drawing for a 2:1 balun. Please respond direct to me.
 73, Mike KF8OD
  >>
The suggested balun will work after fashion as the so called Choke coils 
aren't as effective as many claim.  Attach a Palomar RF Current Meter below 
the choke and it shows there is still RF Spill Over below the choke--perhaps 
less.

The "1/4 Wave Bazooka" construction will give literally a 100 percent choke 
affect and increase the bandwidth substantially.  The shorted 1/4 wave stub 
construction creates the opposite reactance the antenna DE does as it's 
equivalent to an open 1/4 wave stub.  It works on odd harmonics also.  Adding 
the 1/4 wave 75 ohm stub will give the desired 2:1 step up to 100 ohms.  Be 
sure to seal the coax joint properly and the feedpoint at the top.  I'd use a 
mail and female Type N connectors and tape them.  A 92 ohm stub within the 
Bazooka will allow a match to a 169 ohm load +/- on odd harmonics also.  If 
you added a 300 ohm 1/4 wave stub you could match a 532 ohms load +/- and 
higher loads with higher Zo open wire lines.

In the "Old Days" Mfgs like Collins used to add a diagram of the "Collins 
Bazooka" in their Transmitter Instruction Manuals so that their transmitters 
would work better.  It would also keep the RF Spill Over out of the first 
audio mike stage and "RF Bites" off the mike.  The older Antenna Handbooks 
showed the construction of the Open and Sleeved Bazooka.  The open Bazooka 
has to be keep away from the tower and other metal objects.  The 2nd leg can 
be made form old coax as only the shield is used.

In the Proceedings of the IRE there was a "so called improvement" of the 
Bazooka using an open 1/4 wave stub in the 2nd arm connected in series.  
Unfortunately the Editors of the IRE Mag didn't check it theoretically or in 
a working model and it "decreased the bandwidth"--in actual practice.  I sent 
the editor of IRE a 2M sample of the original and their model and they didn't 
answer or print a retraction.  It's awfully tough never being wrong.  

Many 144/450 MHz quads are sold without baluns and ranks up in the "K7GCO Top 
5 All Time Dumb Dumbs" of Antenna Design.  The vertically polarized RF Spill 
Over excites the coax shield and mast which lowers the F/B even of a 
horizontal beam.  It's even worse when a single antenna is vertically 
polarized on the mast for this and another reason.  It's difficult enough 
getting a clean vertically polarized pattern even when a beam is supported 
away from the mast.  On the lower gain 2M beams like a 3 element vertically 
polarized yagi which have fairly close spacing at 1/2 WL or slightly wider 
spacing for the optimum horizontal pattern, the supporting horizontal boom 
gets into the RF act even with no RF Spill Over on to the coax and becomes a 
part of the antenna horizontally polarized--in Eznec and in actual practice.  
This affect is minimized with a quad DE, insulated yagi boom and/or the 
connecting horizontal boom or the yagi DE insulated from a metal boom.  More 
on this later.  In the year 2001 and with all the hi-tech equipment of today, 
there are still some very simple RF Design Problems (fully measurable) 
evading John Q Ham today--even when repeatedly exposed.  Use a Bazooka on 
these quads and also get additional bandwidth.  The 100 ohm Bazooka is made 
to order for quads and is easy to make.  

The Mfgs sell Rigs to John Q Ham.  They are now at the "Total Mercy of the 
average and mostly non-technical Hams ability to install the Proper Antenna." 
 It can take 10 years or more for John Q Ham to get up to Antenna Speed 
Technically and Financially so that this rig can poke out a commanding signal 
in the proper antennas.  It's as if a new rig only works better in its later 
years.  I call this a "Very Poor Marketing Plan"--the very worst I have even 
seen.  Likewise in Bench Rest Rifle Shooting it takes an average of 10 years 
to be competitive even with the same gun.  I didn't know that and was a 
winner from day one and saved a lot of time, money, retained my interest and 
ended up spending a lot of money on guns that performed very well indeed.  
New cars and many other products like a TV perform fully from day one or they 
would be immediately returned.  They often decrease in performance, power or 
picture quality with time which is expected.  

I have a "Great Marketing Plan" that would increase business immediately and 
save John Q Ham a lot of money and time.  Reduce John Q Hams "Get Up To Speed 
Big Signal Time".  This is a "2 step plan." 

1.) When they sell you a "Lemon Rig"--don't make the customer "eat it."  
Keeping it in circulation is very damaging to future sales of all their rigs 
but they don't what it either for strange reasons?  Even dealers are doing 
this now as they claim "the customers still come back".  They don't count 
very well.  Sales statistics actually show this a very dumb practice.  Other 
"Professions" are doing this to everyone as they all do it--you are in a 
captive market.  If you treat your customer fairly--you may have visitors 
after dark.  Shades of the "Untouchables" even today.
2.) Provide John Q Ham with Get Up To Speed Tower, Rotator, Feedline (like 
Collins) and Antenna Manuals/Info/Videos of "Proven Antennas and Systems."  
Conduct Antenna Seminars at Conventions & Clubs.  Chip Margelli of Yaesu 
actually did this.  A good close up Video of a complete antenna system has 
great sales power.  Have a library of such tapes along with parts lists and 
costs.  Call it "Brand XXX Secret Antenna Files" for their customers--and 
other Spies.  There would be an "Underground Market" for this info.  Do you 
remember how long it took you to get up to speed?  Rigs connected to poor 
antennas tend to gather dust.  "Long Live the Bazooka with Modifications." 

"If I sold a very hi-tech product that required very hi-tech antennas to 
fully support it, I sure as hell wouldn't leave it up to mostly non-technical 
 customers to properly support my product and my retirement".  (Old K7GCO 
Axiom)  I'd help them all I could.  Lets see who picks up on this Sure Fire 
Marketing Plan?  Another Sun Spot Cycle Low is a just few years off.  How 
many Mfgs and Radio Stores will survive it--and computers with the Government 
Monkey mostly off Gates back?  We shall see!  Of course they will need 
someone to ''Properly Prepare" this material.  I could suggest someone.  Even 
certain material from Technical Reflectors could be reprinted by the Mfgs.  
K7GCO     

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From ford@cmgate.com  Mon Jul  2 03:01:02 2001
From: ford@cmgate.com (Ford Peterson)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 21:01:02 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 2:1 balun
Message-ID: <005801c1029a$d9347f40$51ed83d1@office>

To my knowledge, there is no such thing.  What you will have is a 2:1
transformer but no balun action.  You may have to wind a transformer and run
a 1:1 balun in front of it.

Better yet, figure out a way to match without a 2:1 transformer.

Ford-N0FP
ford@cmgate.com




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From ford@cmgate.com  Mon Jul  2 03:34:10 2001
From: ford@cmgate.com (Ford Peterson)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 21:34:10 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 2:1 transformers
Message-ID: <001d01c1029f$7a63c8e0$11ed83d1@office>

Perhaps it is not a 2:1 "balun" but a 2:1 transformer that is desired.

The impedance is stepped by the square of the turns ratio.

2:1 turns ratio gives 4:1 step.  If you want a 2:1 step, use 1.414:1 and you
will be close.

Try 14 turns and 10 turns.  or 7 and 5, etc. on a toroid.  Test the number
of turns to ensure you are getting good coefficient of coupling between
primary and secondary.  Too many turns and you have a choke.  Cut and
try....

Good luck.

Ford-N0FP
ford@cmgate.com




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From W8JI@contesting.com  Mon Jul  2 16:37:19 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 11:37:19 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 2:1 balun
In-Reply-To: <3b.16c4e457.2870b25d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200107021540.f62Fegv11979@paris.akorn.net>

> I need a drawing for a 2:1 balun. Please respond direct to me.
> 
> 73, Mike
> KF8OD

Hi Mike,

You didn't say for what frequency range, what impedance, and 
what power level. 

Without knowing that information, any answer is meaningless.

  
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From k7hph@xmission.com  Tue Jul  3 20:15:36 2001
From: k7hph@xmission.com (K7HPH)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:15:36 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
Message-ID: <003301c103f4$8ac73860$7da2fea9@xmission.com>

Thanks everyone for your comments. I received many good suggestions and
cautions. Its  great to have a forum to discuss these issues.

73, Mark...

----- Original Message -----
From: "K7HPH" <k7hph@xmission.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 3:48 PM
Subject: 120V AC Electric Winch


> I have been looking for an AC winch to drive my HDX-555 Crank Up. Aside
from
> the $1,500.00 US Tower Solution, I have seen an AC winch advertised in the
> Glen Martin Engineering Catalog that looks like it might do the job.  The
> cost is under $600.00 and the 4000 lb capacity should be adequate for the
> HDX-555. The problem that I am having is that whenever  I request detailed
> specs and mounting dimensions from GM, I only get capacity and cost; which
> is what the catalog already shows. Does anyone on the reflector know the
> details of this winch? Did Glen Martin have it at Dayton this year? I
would
> be interested in getting additional information if it is available.
>
> Thanks for the help. 73, Mark...
>
>



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From Mike A. King - KM0T" <scsueepe@mtcnet.net  Mon Jul  2 20:27:09 2001
From: Mike A. King - KM0T" <scsueepe@mtcnet.net (Mike A. King - KM0T)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 14:27:09 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] So what is the deal with Tri-Ex?
Message-ID: <009701c1032c$fd15e740$0900a8c0@crashed>

Does anyone know what the deal is with Tri-EX?  Can one get a tower from
them or not?

It seems from the rumors Im hearing and what Im reading, First Call Comm may
not be the place to get one from.  Anyone have anything really concrete on
this subject.

73

Mike -KM0T


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From k2kv@reallybig.com  Mon Jul  2 20:57:13 2001
From: k2kv@reallybig.com (Jeff Singer)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 15:57:13 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
In-Reply-To: <003301c103f4$8ac73860$7da2fea9@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <NCBBJJPGDGNHBDPHJOCHEEICENAA.k2kv@reallybig.com>

Why not call GM and get the specs from them while on the phone?

73 de Jeff K2KV

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of K7HPH
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 3:16 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch


Thanks everyone for your comments. I received many good suggestions and
cautions. Its  great to have a forum to discuss these issues.

73, Mark...

----- Original Message -----
From: "K7HPH" <k7hph@xmission.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 3:48 PM
Subject: 120V AC Electric Winch


> I have been looking for an AC winch to drive my HDX-555 Crank Up. Aside
from
> the $1,500.00 US Tower Solution, I have seen an AC winch advertised in the
> Glen Martin Engineering Catalog that looks like it might do the job.  The
> cost is under $600.00 and the 4000 lb capacity should be adequate for the
> HDX-555. The problem that I am having is that whenever  I request detailed
> specs and mounting dimensions from GM, I only get capacity and cost; which
> is what the catalog already shows. Does anyone on the reflector know the
> details of this winch? Did Glen Martin have it at Dayton this year? I
would
> be interested in getting additional information if it is available.
>
> Thanks for the help. 73, Mark...
>
>



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From Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net  Mon Jul  2 22:11:03 2001
From: Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net (Kevin Hemsley)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:11:03 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Telephone Poles??
Message-ID: <092c01c1033b$8eefd280$d5cbe4cc@kevin>

I have been looking for poles for a horizontal loop project I've been
planning this summer.  One question I have is how you climb a pole once its
planted?  I'm no Paul Bunion - I'm allergic to spiked boots.  Can you
install climbing spikes in the poles?  If so, any idea where you could get
them, or how you could make some?

------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Hemsley
kev@ida.net
KB7TYA




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From mfarrer@tality.com  Mon Jul  2 22:24:38 2001
From: mfarrer@tality.com (Mel Farrer)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 14:24:38 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Telephone Poles??
Message-ID: <97A30A2BBA23D411842900D0B726125D61650D@srvex03-sanjose.Cadence.COM>

There is an after market for pole steps. One of the neat solutions is the
steps they sell for putting on a tree for a deer stand.  There are several
types.  Look into hunting catalogs like Cabella.  Some have detachable parts
to contol who climbs them!

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Hemsley [mailto:kev@ida.net]
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 2:11 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Telephone Poles??


I have been looking for poles for a horizontal loop project I've been
planning this summer.  One question I have is how you climb a pole once its
planted?  I'm no Paul Bunion - I'm allergic to spiked boots.  Can you
install climbing spikes in the poles?  If so, any idea where you could get
them, or how you could make some?

------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Hemsley
kev@ida.net
KB7TYA




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From nwtncc@iswt.com  Mon Jul  2 22:50:20 2001
From: nwtncc@iswt.com (James C. Hall, M.D.)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 16:50:20 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] So what is the deal with Tri-Ex?
References: <009701c1032c$fd15e740$0900a8c0@crashed>
Message-ID: <001b01c10340$fd53c380$0300a8c0@iswt.com>

Mike:

You can NOT get a Tri-Ex tower from First Call Comm.  Their new
manufacturer, Wil-Burt, had a falling out with First Call and Joel.  I am
one of the unfortunate souls who placed an order before all this went down -
Sept. 2000.  I cancelled my order and have since ordered a tower from Texas
Tower - a US Tower 72' heavy-duty crank-up.  Yea, more expensive - but more
reliable.  I HOPE to see my 60% deposit refunded my credit card soon - I
have heard of problems in this regard.

Jamie
WB4YDL
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike A. King - KM0T <scsueepe@mtcnet.net>
To: <TOWERTALK@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 2:27 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] So what is the deal with Tri-Ex?


> Does anyone know what the deal is with Tri-EX?  Can one get a tower from
> them or not?
>
> It seems from the rumors Im hearing and what Im reading, First Call Comm
may
> not be the place to get one from.  Anyone have anything really concrete on
> this subject.
>
> 73
>
> Mike -KM0T
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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>
>


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From K4BEV@aol.com  Mon Jul  2 23:48:28 2001
From: K4BEV@aol.com (K4BEV@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:48:28 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Telephone Poles??
Message-ID: <15.168fe309.2872543c@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/2/01 16:05:01 Central Daylight Time, kev@ida.net writes:

<< Can you install climbing spikes in the poles? >>

A lot of sporting goods stores (es WalMart in these parts) carry screw in 
steps used for climbing trees while deer hunting. They work great, and you 
can take them with you so the local kids can't climb the pole. There is also 
a version that straps on to the tree, but I've found that they slip at the 
worst time.

73 - Don K4BEV

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From paulfinch@msn.com  Tue Jul  3 00:19:31 2001
From: paulfinch@msn.com (Paul Finch)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:19:31 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Telephone Poles??
In-Reply-To: <092c01c1033b$8eefd280$d5cbe4cc@kevin>
Message-ID: <CHEAIHGJHDFPBLKFBDLIAEHACFAA.paulfinch@msn.com>

Hello,

While we are on this subject, has anyone out there mounted a 2.4 GHz dish on
an 80 foot telephone with any luck.  How steady is an 80 foot pole at the
top in gusty winds?

Paul
WB5IDM



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From FireBrick" <w9ol@billnjudy.com  Tue Jul  3 00:31:42 2001
From: FireBrick" <w9ol@billnjudy.com (FireBrick)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:31:42 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Telephone poles
Message-ID: <013c01c1034f$29024980$0201a8c0@billnjudy>

If you are going to put up 4 poles for a horizontal loop, I'd definitely
rent one of those powered bucket lifts.
The ones like the electricians or painters use to reach high stuff.

Here in Chicagoland they rent for about $150/day, delivered and picked up.
I think you can make short work of installing anchors, pulleys and wires.

Lot easier on the feet and legs. And safer too.


------------------------------------------------------------
"To keep milk from turning sour: Keep it in the cow."
------------------------------------------------------------

Bill H. in Chicagoland
w9ol@billnjudy.com



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From w5kp@swbell.net  Tue Jul  3 01:05:53 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 19:05:53 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Telephone Poles??
References: <15.168fe309.2872543c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00b301c10353$edd961e0$2a08b8d1@jkdesktop>

Ok, gotta weigh in on this so I can sleep nights, lest somebody spend his
later years in a wheelchair because I failed to at least put out the
warning:  Utility poles are usually pressure treated. The pressure treating
chemicals, over time, will eat metal that is not hot-dip galvanized. One of
these days a cheapo screw-in deer stand step will kill somebody if they are
misused in this application. It's akin to using the rope from your kid's
pull toy to belt on with at 75'. It's just not smart. I suppose I'll draw
comments from those who have been using 30-penny spikes to climb on for 50
years, but I'll stick to my guns on this one. Buy the real hot-dip
galvanized steps, install them properly, and live to be old and crabby like
me.

If the $ required for a safe step installation are simply unavailable,
either stay off poles or learn from an experienced climber to use hooks,
which are very safe if used exactly, precisely, and correctly right every
time. The room for error is very small, however, on hooks. For example, get
the inside of your knee too close to the pole just once, and you could
easily be on the ground looking up, picking slivers and splinters out of
your chest - assuming you survived the descent.

Ok, I've done my duty. I know there are guys out there who freeclimb towers
all the time, too. So all you bulletproof "I'm gonna live forever" guys can
now go to Wal-Mart for your climbing and safety gear, and have at it, and I
won't have to feel bad about it. While you're there, don't forget to pick up
a few of the pretty little aluminum carabiners in the plastic jar at the
checkout counter. At 30 cents each, why pay $18 a pop for the real ones that
the rock climbers use? Heck, these seem like they oughta work just fine...
:-)

73, Jerry W5KP


----- Original Message -----
From: <K4BEV@aol.com>
To: <kev@ida.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Telephone Poles??


> In a message dated 7/2/01 16:05:01 Central Daylight Time, kev@ida.net
writes:
>
> << Can you install climbing spikes in the poles? >>
>
> A lot of sporting goods stores (es WalMart in these parts) carry screw in
> steps used for climbing trees while deer hunting. They work great, and you
> can take them with you so the local kids can't climb the pole. There is
also
> a version that straps on to the tree, but I've found that they slip at the
> worst time.
>
> 73 - Don K4BEV
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>
>


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From w7why@harborside.com  Tue Jul  3 00:30:08 2001
From: w7why@harborside.com (Tom Osborne)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 16:30:08 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40m 4 Square
References: <00f101c100dc$31e23d00$4e2eb518@speast1.tn.home.com>
Message-ID: <3B410400.9E899A14@harborside.com>



RichmondP wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I am in the process of constructing a 40 meter four square and >need advice.

This is an interesting question.  
What is the advantage of a 4 square over a 3 vertical array.  I
have a 3 vertical array on 40 and it is switchable in 6 different
directions.  Directivity seems to be very good.  What would be
the advantage of going to a 4 square over a 3 antenna array?  73
Tom W7WHY

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From thompson@mindspring.com  Tue Jul  3 03:05:30 2001
From: thompson@mindspring.com (David L. Thompson)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 22:05:30 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Telephone Poles??
References: <092c01c1033b$8eefd280$d5cbe4cc@kevin>
Message-ID: <000701c10364$a3cb30e0$315a56d1@default>

Good questions Kevin.   I used a telephone pole for many years.

1.    How to procure a pole or poles.   Freebees are available from most
power
companies and REA's.  Theses are poles with a few years on them and can be
anywhere from 30 to 70 feet.   Usually you transport and plant but some (I
got a power company to deliver).   You can also buy poles (as Bill KC4UZ
pointed out several months ago).   He even said 120 poles are available.
More common are the 40 to 80 foot variety.  Prices vary across the
country...call the local power company purchasing dept and they usually will
give you the seller.   Make sure they are treated before installing
(planting).

2.    Planting and pole spikes.   You need to find one of the independent
pole planters and pay the freight to have the hole dug and the pole planted
correctly.    On our first attempt we used an A-frame rig that broke apart
about half way up.   Use professional help!   Pole spikes are not too
expensive and are placed about every 18" alternating up the pole.   One guy
even put a ladder on the side.  Using climbing spikes is no longer
recommended.

3.    Mounting a beam on a pole.  This does not apply for a loop but the
ARRL Handbook form the late 50's has the accepted method
for installing a rotor and beam or quad at the top of a tower.   The method
uses an L with a top coupling that can turn for easy install of the antenna
and mast.    This also protects the rotor from side motion.    The alternate
method used by many was to add a tract up the tower or
install the beam on top of a long pipe held next to the pole.  The tract
acts just like the Hazer and allows the antenna and rotor to be worked on a
ground level.

4.   Other points to consider.   Its best to add a set of guys (they act as
sway bars) about 5 feet below the antenna.   Kevlar is best to assure no
interactions.   Use the 120 degree method as with a tower.    Be sure to
check the pole for rot at ground level or just below every two years.
Especially if you are using older poles.   The pole I had up for 12 years
was about half rotted out (I was away at college for 4 years)
when the family moved.   If you live in the Southeast make that inspection
every year.

A telephone pole can make a great tower investment for a fraction of the
cost of even Rohn 45.

73 Dave K4JRB


> I have been looking for poles for a horizontal loop project I've been
> planning this summer.  One question I have is how you climb a pole once
its
> planted?  I'm no Paul Bunion - I'm allergic to spiked boots.  Can you
> install climbing spikes in the poles?  If so, any idea where you could get
> them, or how you could make some?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Kevin Hemsley
> kev@ida.net
> KB7TYA
>






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From K3BU@aol.com  Tue Jul  3 03:23:31 2001
From: K3BU@aol.com (K3BU@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 22:23:31 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40m 4 Square
Message-ID: <16.ec2723b.287286a3@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/2/01 9:49:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
w7why@harborside.com writes:

>  Directivity seems to be very good.  What would be
>  the advantage of going to a 4 square over a 3 antenna array?  73
>  Tom W7WHY
>  

Much better pattern, more gain, rejection and RX performance (S/N 
discrimination). 
I tried various 3 el. configurations, they were inferior to 4 sq.

Yuri, K3BU

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From ve6yc@home.com  Tue Jul  3 03:27:07 2001
From: ve6yc@home.com (Peter Larsen)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 03:27:07 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Telephone Poles??
References: <CHEAIHGJHDFPBLKFBDLIAEHACFAA.paulfinch@msn.com>
Message-ID: <3B412D7B.CA1AC7B8@home.com>

> How steady is an 80 foot pole at the top in gusty winds?

3 to 4 feet wouldn't be unusual. The flex keeps it from snapping
off. 
I have been at the 80 foot mark on a wood pole working, a fun 
ride!!


-- 
 Peter J. Larsen
 

> Is there another word for synonym?
http://members.home.net/ve6yc

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From ve6yc@home.com  Tue Jul  3 03:39:08 2001
From: ve6yc@home.com (Peter Larsen)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 03:39:08 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Telephone Poles??
References: <15.168fe309.2872543c@aol.com> <00b301c10353$edd961e0$2a08b8d1@jkdesktop>
Message-ID: <3B41304C.3E5C1A1E@home.com>

> For example, get the inside of your knee too close to the pole
> just once, and you could easily be on the ground looking up, 
> picking slivers and splinters out of your chest - assuming you
> survived the descent.
>

Dang Jerry, these sound like words of experience. I got a set
of vascular clamps for the slivers as tweezers just don't cut 
it :-(

BTW "pole steps" have been outlawed here in Calgary. Have you 
ever seen some one who fell off a pole with pole steps on it
and got hung up on the way down?? Imagine being impaled on
one of those steps and hanging upside down for a while.
Give me a set of hooks any day!!

Talk to your local power utility, most of the guys would climb
the poles for you for a small fee.

We now have fall arrest devices on our climbing belts and
have to belt in no higher than 10 feet. Even a guy of my robust
nature only slips about 2 feet when I kick out. Still get the 
slivers though.
 

-- 
 Peter J. Larsen
 

> Is there another word for synonym?
http://members.home.net/ve6yc

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From cfb@en.com  Tue Jul  3 04:47:27 2001
From: cfb@en.com (Carl -K8AV-)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 23:47:27 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] So what is the deal with Tri-Ex?
References: <009701c1032c$fd15e740$0900a8c0@crashed>
Message-ID: <3B41404F.ABB6B648@en.com>

I think this is the company that is now building the Tri-EX towers.  Maybe you
can contact them for complete information on the subject. There located in Ohio.

http://www.willburt.com/channels/

73,
Carl

"Mike A. King - KM0T" wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know what the deal is with Tri-EX?  Can one get a tower from
> them or not?
> 
> It seems from the rumors Im hearing and what Im reading, First Call Comm may
> not be the place to get one from.  Anyone have anything really concrete on
> this subject.
> 
> 73
> 
> Mike -KM0T
> 
>

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From w5kp@swbell.net  Tue Jul  3 12:42:43 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 06:42:43 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Flex coupling for rotators
Message-ID: <004101c103b5$4694b800$9b22c1cf@jkdesktop>

Wanted to bounce an idea off the collective list brainpower:

I read about exotic and complicated ways to hoist the mast up to work on
rotators. It would be extremely nice to be able to remove my rotator without
having to hoist/move the mast vertically at all. My new 45G setup will have
2 rotor shelves/TB-3's and a 21' mast (10' out the top, 11' inside).

I'm thinking of a short steel tubing sleeve with an ID that will just slip
over the 2" OD of the bottom of the mast. Bottom of the mast and top of the
sleeve would be carefully drilled for a hefty galvanized through-bolt. When
removing the rotator in the future, I should be able to just pull the
through bolt and slide the sleeve up, temporarily slipping the through bolt
back in through a second hole in the bottom of the sleeve to hold it up out
of the way, pull the rotator, etc. The second thrust bearing and a muffler
clamp with a piece of angle welded to it U-bolted to a tower leg would keep
everything from flopping around while the rotator is out, and add some
safety against vertical mast slipping. The Yaesu 1000 is self-centering and
adjustable to fit about any size sleeve in this application. Or, as an
alternative, maybe some sort of easily removable heavy duty rubber coupling
is available that would simply fit between a short rotor stub of 2" mast and
the remainder of the mast. Don't like that as well, though, I'd fear
excessive flex might cause constant twisting around of the antennas in the
wind, unless the rubber coupling was really stiff.

Is anybody using a setup like this, and how is it working? The only negative
possibility I see is the top of the steel sleeve might permanently deform
from longterm bolt pressure, and be difficult to slide up. Maybe a single
slot in the sleeve at 90 degrees from the bolt holes for springiness would
help prevent that.

Comments welcome!

73, Jerry W5KP     Mustang, Oklahoma


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From N4CW@aol.com  Tue Jul  3 13:28:55 2001
From: N4CW@aol.com (N4CW@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:28:55 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Flex coupling for rotators
Message-ID: <ad.cd289e0.28731487@aol.com>

I suspect that eventually the bolt holes holding the sleeve and the mast will 
"worry", and you'll get more and more "slop" in the joints.  You could delay 
the process by using hardened mast material as well as bolts, and maintain 
VERY close tolerances between sleeve and mast.
I suspect that's why universal joints were invented...
73, Bert N4CW

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From nx1g@top.monad.net  Tue Jul  3 14:47:07 2001
From: nx1g@top.monad.net (Craig Clark)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 09:47:07 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] telephone poles
In-Reply-To: <200107030350.f633okW30424@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20010703094037.00bece40@top.monad.net>

AND, WHILE WE ARE ON THE SUBJECT,

In the military, I once saw a guy gaff-out on a telephone pole during 
training.

It wasn't pretty.

Here in NH, cuz our poles use creosote, (I have seen some that use the 
"green-stuff" which is a copper-arsenic product, I think) they are 
considered hazardous waste. Ten years ago when they redid the poles on our 
road, I was able to get a bunch and have used them for a pole barn and 
other applications.

I have asked PSNH (our power company) about more poles and they are hard to 
get due to EPA environmental restrictions on their disposal.

I have my eye on four poles right now. Hopefully, I'll be able to snatch 
them from the jaws of the EPA.

Have a great and safe 4th of July all!

73 Craig Clark W1JCC

Radio Bookstore & Radioware
PO Box 209
47 Fitzgerald Rd
Rindge NH 03461


Orders: 800 457 7373 - 603 899 6957
         10am- 6pm EST
Fax:    603 899 6826
         24 hours, 7 days per week
email:  nx1g@top.monad.net
         radware@radio-ware.com
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         http://www.radiobooks.com


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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jul  3 15:50:19 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:50:19 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Flex coupling for rotators
Message-ID: <92.16e1efdd.287335ab@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/3/01 4:45:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, w5kp@swbell.net 
writes:

> I'm thinking of a short steel tubing sleeve with an ID that will just slip
>  over the 2" OD of the bottom of the mast. Bottom of the mast and top of the
>  sleeve would be carefully drilled for a hefty galvanized through-bolt. When
>  removing the rotator in the future, I should be able to just pull the
>  through bolt and slide the sleeve up, temporarily slipping the through bolt
>  back in through a second hole in the bottom of the sleeve to hold it up out
>  of the way, pull the rotator, etc. 

    I'm not sure what kind of antenna load you're carrying but if it's a C-3 
or similar and your windspeeds are also moderate, that'll work. Unfortunately 
I've never seen pinning a mast with a thru-bolt work for very long. With a 
moderate antenna torque load (say something with a boom 24' or longer) and 
moderate windspeeds (70 MPH), the bolt will eventually elongate the bolt 
holes and then the bolt breaks. There's just too much slop in this technique 
to be useful. 

>  The second thrust bearing and a muffler
>  clamp with a piece of angle welded to it U-bolted to a tower leg would keep
>  everything from flopping around while the rotator is out, and add some
>  safety against vertical mast slipping. 

    Why wouldn't the first top TB and muffler clamp hold the vertical weight? 
That's plenty - the TB will typically hold the weight and the muffler clamp a 
good redundant safety back-up. 

    I'm not a big fan of second TB's because it's too easy to introduce bind 
into the system if the second TB is tightened up. My suggestion would be to 
only tighten the second TB bolts when you're doing a rotator swap. Otherwise 
just let the mast float inside the second TB.

>  The Yaesu 1000 is self-centering and
>  adjustable to fit about any size sleeve in this application. 

    If you're using a G-1000, then you couldn't have too big of a system so 
thru-bolting will probably work. All bets are off if you've got anything more 
than about a 16' boom though or more than 70 MPH winds.

>  Or, as an
>  alternative, maybe some sort of easily removable heavy duty rubber coupling
>  is available that would simply fit between a short rotor stub of 2" mast 
and
>  the remainder of the mast. Don't like that as well, though, I'd fear
>  excessive flex might cause constant twisting around of the antennas in the
>  wind, unless the rubber coupling was really stiff.

    This was popularized by Dave Leeson, W6NL, ex-W6QHS, where he used BMW 
couplers (I don't remember their original function). Use of one will increase 
rotator capacity and/or reliability.

    Unfortunately no one has come up with a bolt-on, long lasting one. KLM 
used to make one but gave up after lots of failures. Yaesu shows a couple in 
their latest rotator catalog but I haven't seen one in the flesh.
>  
>  Is anybody using a setup like this, and how is it working? The only 
negative
>  possibility I see is the top of the steel sleeve might permanently deform
>  from longterm bolt pressure, and be difficult to slide up. Maybe a single
>  slot in the sleeve at 90 degrees from the bolt holes for springiness would
>  help prevent that.

    If this was my system, I'd skip the coupler and put the mast directly in 
the rotator. Using a comealong to move the mast up an inch or two is a 
slamdunk; you're only talking about doing this once a decade or so anyway. 

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From VE6JY Don Moman" <ve6jy@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Tue Jul  3 16:18:49 2001
From: VE6JY Don Moman" <ve6jy@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (VE6JY Don Moman)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:18:49 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Flex coupling for rotators
References: <92.16e1efdd.287335ab@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00e001c103d3$a1049760$74cea1c6@ve6jy>

I always make a point of having the mast rest a 1/2 inch above the "floor"
of the rotor.  It is easily held there by the locking collar on the bearing
and a backup U clamp or something even heavier.  At least with any rotor
that the side clamp comes off, it is an easy matter just to slide the rotor
to the side and out.

K7LXC wrote:
>     I'm not sure what kind of antenna load you're carrying but if it's a
C-3
> or similar and your windspeeds are also moderate, that'll work.
Unfortunately
> I've never seen pinning a mast with a thru-bolt work for very long. With a
> moderate antenna torque load (say something with a boom 24' or longer) and
> moderate windspeeds (70 MPH), the bolt will eventually elongate the bolt
> holes and then the bolt breaks. There's just too much slop in this
technique
> to be useful.

They certainly can elongate and cause problems, esp with aluminum masts.
However I use the pinning technique quite a bit as it is simple and cheap
and the first thing that came to mind. It can work fine - example:
I have a driveshaft for the log periodic - 60+ boom length, weighs over 1000
pounds - that has been pinned for years (over 10) without any problems or
even loosening.  Nothing fancy - 2 3/8 OD pipe (2" Sked 40 steel) with an
insert of 2" solid rod going about 6" into each side. 2 1/2" grade 5 bolts
thru each side, drilled 90 deg to each other.

Other techniques to help keep the "sloppies" out of the bolt holes:
.... use a tap and thread the hole.
.... use roll pins / spring pins instead of bolts.

73 Don
VE6JY



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From Francisco Costa" <fcosta@mail.telepac.pt  Tue Jul  3 23:45:28 2001
From: Francisco Costa" <fcosta@mail.telepac.pt (Francisco Costa)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:45:28 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] T2X vs G-1000
Message-ID: <013b01c10411$dc2ee320$14dc41c2@telepac.pt>

Hi All

I've ordered a C4XL and now I'm wondering what's the 
best rotator to use with it.
My idea is to use the  T2X or G-1000, but first I would 
like to know your opinion. 
BTW, I'm looking for the most reliable unit. 
Climbing the tower is not my favorit sport, hi!
Thanks in advance.

Best 73
F.Costa, CT1EAT


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From rthorne@tcac.net  Wed Jul  4 00:08:10 2001
From: rthorne@tcac.net (Richard Thorne)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 18:08:10 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] T2X vs G-1000
References: <013b01c10411$dc2ee320$14dc41c2@telepac.pt>
Message-ID: <3B42505A.FA76AA06@tcac.net>

Francisco:

I've been turning a C4XL with the G1000sdx for over two years now.  No problems, and we
get fairly high winds on a regular basis here in Amarillo.


Francisco Costa wrote:

> Hi All
>
> I've ordered a C4XL and now I'm wondering what's the
> best rotator to use with it.
> My idea is to use the  T2X or G-1000, but first I would
> like to know your opinion.
> BTW, I'm looking for the most reliable unit.
> Climbing the tower is not my favorit sport, hi!
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Best 73
> F.Costa, CT1EAT
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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--
73,
Richard Thorne
Amarillo, TX
Amateur Radio Station - N5ZC (Ex. KA2DSY, N2BHP, WB5M)
Remote Control Planes - AMA # N5ZC
Web Page: http://www.tcac.net/~rthorne/index.html



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From w7ti@dslextreme.com  Wed Jul  4 00:50:25 2001
From: w7ti@dslextreme.com (Bill Turner)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:50:25 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] T2X vs G-1000
References: <013b01c10411$dc2ee320$14dc41c2@telepac.pt>
Message-ID: <002c01c1041b$7c805da0$0e84bbd0@w7ti>

I've had both the rotators you mentioned and much prefer the
G-1000DXA.  It does not have the brake lockup the T2X is notorious
for, it also has variable speed control, preset direction control and
costs less to boot.  And besides, it looks better.  Whoever put that
ugly calibration pot on the front of the T2X should have to go sit in
the corner.

73, Bill W7TI
_________________________________________________________


----- Original Message -----
From: "Francisco Costa" <fcosta@mail.telepac.pt>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 3:45 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] T2X vs G-1000


> Hi All
>
> I've ordered a C4XL and now I'm wondering what's the
> best rotator to use with it.
> My idea is to use the  T2X or G-1000, but first I would
> like to know your opinion.
> BTW, I'm looking for the most reliable unit.
> Climbing the tower is not my favorit sport, hi!
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Best 73
> F.Costa, CT1EAT



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From dcoolica@planet.eon.net  Wed Jul  4 02:25:04 2001
From: dcoolica@planet.eon.net (Denis Coolican)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 20:25:04 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Flex coupling for rotators
References: <004101c103b5$4694b800$9b22c1cf@jkdesktop>
Message-ID: <3B427070.D721ADC6@planet.eon.net>

As far as bolts through the mast to connect portions of the mast
together,  I do not
think a straight bolt will be satisfactory as it well work loose. Using
two will improve
the situation.  I prefer to use a cone insert such that as you tighten
the bolt it pulls
the cone into the mast and there is no place for the joint in the mast
to move.
The cone is like a ice cream cone with one end having a .75 inch OD and
a .50 ID and the
other end having a .625 in OD and a .5 in ID.  On one side of the mast
drill a 5/8 inch
hole and put the cone in. On the other side drill a .5 inch hole. Now
put your 1/2 bolt
through the cone on one side and through the 1/2 hole on the other side
of the mast and
tighten.

Another way to do it is with a flex coupling where you use a piece of
1/2 in conveyer
belt as your coupler between the two portions of your mast.  On each
piece of mast weld
a piece of flat bar horizontally for connecting to your coupler.

A coupler will take the shock out of the system and will be kinder to
your rotator.  The
antenna may move around a bit as your torsion coupler twist but this is
a good thing.
You want flexibility in large masts so that there are no sudden stops or
starts.

If I can make it clearer with a picture or sketch contact me directly
and I will see
what I can do.

Denis Ve6Aq  /  Ve6FI

"J. Kincade" wrote:

> Wanted to bounce an idea off the collective list brainpower:
>
> I read about exotic and complicated ways to hoist the mast up to work on
> rotators. It would be extremely nice to be able to remove my rotator without
> having to hoist/move the mast vertically at all. My new 45G setup will have
> 2 rotor shelves/TB-3's and a 21' mast (10' out the top, 11' inside).
>
> I'm thinking of a short steel tubing sleeve with an ID that will just slip
> over the 2" OD of the bottom of the mast. Bottom of the mast and top of the
> sleeve would be carefully drilled for a hefty galvanized through-bolt. When
> removing the rotator in the future, I should be able to just pull the
> through bolt and slide the sleeve up, temporarily slipping the through bolt
> back in through a second hole in the bottom of the sleeve to hold it up out
> of the way, pull the rotator, etc. The second thrust bearing and a muffler
> clamp with a piece of angle welded to it U-bolted to a tower leg would keep
> everything from flopping around while the rotator is out, and add some
> safety against vertical mast slipping. The Yaesu 1000 is self-centering and
> adjustable to fit about any size sleeve in this application. Or, as an
> alternative, maybe some sort of easily removable heavy duty rubber coupling
> is available that would simply fit between a short rotor stub of 2" mast and
> the remainder of the mast. Don't like that as well, though, I'd fear
> excessive flex might cause constant twisting around of the antennas in the
> wind, unless the rubber coupling was really stiff.
>
> Is anybody using a setup like this, and how is it working? The only negative
> possibility I see is the top of the steel sleeve might permanently deform
> from longterm bolt pressure, and be difficult to slide up. Maybe a single
> slot in the sleeve at 90 degrees from the bolt holes for springiness would
> help prevent that.
>
> Comments welcome!
>
> 73, Jerry W5KP     Mustang, Oklahoma
>
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From n4cc@fdn.com  Wed Jul  4 03:38:04 2001
From: n4cc@fdn.com (Greg - N4CC)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 22:38:04 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Quad Question
Message-ID: <4.1.20010703223045.010ccf10@pop.fdn.com>

If you design a 40 meter quad, typically you design it for either the phone
or cw band but what if you cut a driven element loop for say 7.025 and
another driven loop on the same set of spreaders cut for 7.25 -- and feed
both of them simultaneously?
	Does anyone have any experience doing this or similar?
	Will bandwidth be improved?  (I recognize that with a single wire loop for
a reflector that gain will be compromised at some point...but I'm looking
for a broadband solution with good SWR characteristics across the band and
decent forward gain.  I really don't care so much about f/b ratio.
	Some of you antenna or modeling experts must have some thoughts ???
73 de Greg-N4CC

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From W8JI@contesting.com  Wed Jul  4 04:26:59 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:26:59 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40m 4 Square
In-Reply-To: <3B410400.9E899A14@harborside.com>
Message-ID: <200107040230.f642UMP10418@paris.akorn.net>

> This is an interesting question.  
> What is the advantage of a 4 square over a 3 vertical array.  I
> have a 3 vertical array on 40 and it is switchable in 6 different
> directions.  Directivity seems to be very good.  What would be
> the advantage of going to a 4 square over a 3 antenna array?

Probably not much, if the three vertical array is done correctly.

Traditional 4 squares with 90/180 degree phasing are off a tiny bit 
in phase delay from optimum, so they don't work quite as well as 
they actually could. 

That hurts gain about a dB, and F/B several dB.

If you compare a traditional 40-square (90/180 delay) to a three 
element array with 1/8 wl spacing (two elements active) using 
proper phasing ~135 or 140 degree phasing), the four-square has 
less F/B ratio and about 1.2 dB more gain.

Eznec shows 5.33dBi gain for the four-square and 25dB F/B, and 
4.01 dB with 30 dB F/B on a two active element antenna with 1/8th 
wave spacing.

There obviously isn't a large difference.

I use 120/240 shift in my four square, which makes it about the 
same F/B as the two element (~30 dB) but also gives about one 
more dB gain over a regular phase-shift four-square (6.5dBi gain 
using the same ground loss and frequency band as the other two 
above).

Still a small difference, unless you are fighting for every last dB.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From n4kg@juno.com  Wed Jul  4 06:41:34 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:41:34 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40m 4 Square
Message-ID: <20010703.234323.-102697.3.N4KG@juno.com>

My guess is that the original question refered to 
a 3L vertical array in a triangle, NOT in line,
which can provide the 6 directions mentioned.

Tom  N4KG


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From n4kg@juno.com  Wed Jul  4 06:41:01 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:41:01 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Quad Question
Message-ID: <20010703.234323.-102697.2.N4KG@juno.com>

The 40M band requires just over 4% bandwidth which is
equivalent to covering 28.0 to 29.2 on 10M.  This CAN be
accomplished moderately well with full size elements
although it is definitely easier with dual driven elements.

Years ago, I had a 2L 40M Delta Loop suspended from 
a 20 ft boom at 120 ft., tuned for CW.  It was the only 40M
antenna I have ever had that would allow me to run EU on
40M SSB.  Hunt and call was almost always "one call works all"
often without even using phonetics, just N 4 K G (over).
I don't recall the SWR in the phone band, but it was better
than any other 40M  CW antenna I have had.  Tuning for
7.1 MHz would probably suffice for a single DE.  

I used 75 ohm CATV hardline, 3/4 inch dia., to run to the tower 
and an RG59 jumper to the bottom center of the DE loop.  
I 'assume' that I cut the feedline to be an odd number 
of 1/4 WL's back to the transmitter.

Identical loops with 3/8 WL feedlines can be used to make 
a reversible fixed 2L Loop antenna if BOTH sides of the 
feedline are switched.

My CC 2L40 is also tuned for CW and works 'OK' on SSB
but is noticably less competitive on SSB than CW.  I use
an MN2000 Antenna Tuner for SSB.  K7LXC and others
recommend tuning between the CW and SSB dimensions.

de Tom  N4KG


On Tue, 03 Jul 2001  Greg - N4CC <n4cc@fdn.com> writes:
> If you design a 40 meter quad, typically you design it for either the 
> phone
> or cw band but what if you cut a driven element loop for say 7.025 
> and
> another driven loop on the same set of spreaders cut for 7.25 -- and 
> feed
> both of them simultaneously?
> 	Does anyone have any experience doing this or similar?
> 	Will bandwidth be improved?  (I recognize that with a single 
> wire loop for
> a reflector that gain will be compromised at some point...but I'm 
> looking
> for a broadband solution with good SWR characteristics across the 
> band and
> decent forward gain.  I really don't care so much about f/b ratio.
> 	Some of you antenna or modeling experts must have some 
> thoughts ???
> 73 de Greg-N4CC

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From n6nz@n6nz.net  Wed Jul  4 07:14:43 2001
From: n6nz@n6nz.net (Dave N6NZ)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 23:14:43 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Will trees kill me, too?
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010703230413.00984780@ns.dave-curtis.com>

It just so happens that the new QTH has some nice Ponderosa pine that I 
thought would make dandy supports for wires. Recently, the friendly UPS man 
brought me some innocent looking equipment that seemed like just the thing 
to implement my plans for wires in trees.

But... and here the plot thickens... now I read on TowerTalk that these 
new, shiny, pole climbing gaffs (a.k.a. tree climbing gaffs) are plotting 
my demise even as they slumber, unassembled, in the shipping box that 
brought them into my innocent and unprotected tool shed.

Seriously, can someone tell me (and the rest of the reflector) exactly how 
a beginner should go about using these things safely?

73, Dave N6NZ


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From basalop@gte.net  Wed Jul  4 07:19:02 2001
From: basalop@gte.net (Jim Berry)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:19:02 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Will trees kill me, too?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010703230413.00984780@ns.dave-curtis.com>
Message-ID: <000401c10451$387c0b00$ac000f3f@default>

Hello Folks,

I got a bunch of organic towers also.  The last fella I had that did
some rigging had these spikes and a safety belt.  He did a nice job
for me, but I don't think the trees really appreciated the spikes.
Is there some way a guy can climb a tree safely without spikes and
not get hurt?  I can't do any climbing and do not want to tell a pro
his business.

73 Jim K7SLI



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From w5kp@swbell.net  Wed Jul  4 13:37:15 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 07:37:15 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Will trees kill me, too?
References: <4.2.0.58.20010703230413.00984780@ns.dave-curtis.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c10486$0f5f09e0$d220c1cf@jkdesktop>

Hi Dave,

At risk of boring folks, here's my last (I promise!) safety speech on this
subject. See http://www.buckinghammfg.com/ for a ton of info on pole and
tree climbing equipment. Southwesten Bell uses Buckingham pole belts,
straps, and climbers. Buckingham also makes a completely *different* line of
equipment for arborists. I don't know about the others. I expect some use
Klein, also. Just as pole climbing and tree climbing are different, pole
gaffs and arborist's gaffs are very different. Using pole gaffs in a tree
will get you hurt (they are way too short and incorrectly shaped for
penetrating bark). If you plan to climb trees, at least ensure you have tree
gaffs first, which are anywhere from 3" to 5" long with thinner points
compared to short fat 1-1/2" pole gaffs (they are definitely not "a.k.a.
tree climbing gaffs").

I apologize to the list for sounding like the safety police on this pole
thing. I spoke up because I sensed a bit of "no sweat, anybody can do this",
and "heck, I ain't skeered" attitude on pole climbing among some, and I
already see too many guys in wheelchairs at hamfests. As a hint, Ma Bell
spends 2 weeks of intensive and expensive 8 hrs per day training (with about
a 20% washout rate) to teach people to climb safely. Some can't do it, some
won't do it again after they try it once, and just go find another job. In
my particular class, I was the second fastest guy to qualify out of 16. Five
of the 16 dropped out or flunked out. Average age (excluding me, I was 52 at
the time) was about 23.

In spite of what I have said, a few of you hardy young souls out there will
still just buy some used gaffs from a fleamarket and strap 'em on and go for
it. If you are one of those, I sincerely wish you and your families the
best, and I promise to get off my soapbox and quit wasting reflector
bandwidth on this subject.

BTW, I don't have any idea where or if a guy can get formally schooled on
climbing either poles or trees, unless you work for a utility company (not a
bad job, by the way, even for old geezers like me) or a tree/logging outfit.
Best of luck to all you climbers out there.

73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave N6NZ <n6nz@n6nz.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 1:14 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Will trees kill me, too?


> It just so happens that the new QTH has some nice Ponderosa pine that I
> thought would make dandy supports for wires. Recently, the friendly UPS
man
> brought me some innocent looking equipment that seemed like just the thing
> to implement my plans for wires in trees.
>
> But... and here the plot thickens... now I read on TowerTalk that these
> new, shiny, pole climbing gaffs (a.k.a. tree climbing gaffs) are plotting
> my demise even as they slumber, unassembled, in the shipping box that
> brought them into my innocent and unprotected tool shed.
>
> Seriously, can someone tell me (and the rest of the reflector) exactly how
> a beginner should go about using these things safely?
>
> 73, Dave N6NZ
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>


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From kbottles@rafn.com  Wed Jul  4 14:11:32 2001
From: kbottles@rafn.com (Kim Bottles)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 06:11:32 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Will trees kill me, too?
Message-ID: <01C10450.2C998D40.kbottles@rafn.com>

Here is another approach to "wires in the tree" that I happened across this Field Day.

I was riding my bicycle on Field Day Sunday morning and I came across the North Kitsap Amateur Radio Club gang.

After introductions and the such, I noticed that their wire antennas were way the heck up in some Douglas Firs.
Like 80-100 feet up. So I asked "How the heck did you get them so far up for Field Day?"

Answer: Potato Gun

Only took several shots from an experienced cannonier and they were in business with some very high wires.
Seems like there could be some home application here.

Cheers!

Kim Bottles - K7IM
Bainbridge Island, WA



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From hankarn@pacbell.net  Wed Jul  4 14:22:39 2001
From: hankarn@pacbell.net (Dan)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 06:22:39 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Will trees kill me, too?
References: <4.2.0.58.20010703230413.00984780@ns.dave-curtis.com>
Message-ID: <3B43189F.E6E355BB@pacbell.net>

Dave, I think you will find out that pole gaffs and tree gaffs are two
different animals. Pole gaffs are shorter and are made to set in clear
wood, tree gaffs are longer and are made to go through bark layer and
then set in the meat of the tree. They climbing chaps to use while
learning. You never hug the pole unless you want to breakout and slide
rapidly down it until your belt hooks onto a spike hopefully before your
body does. Knees straight both gaffs set and leaning out.
Practice close to the ground all aspects until you feel comfortable,
then go up to 10 feet, up and down to feel at home.
Skinning a tree is not as bad as a training pole, but we had crotch, leg
and arm straps along with linemen's gloves.

BE SAFE in all cases. You can always find a tree service that has a
climber that can go up and do the work and be on the ground before you
can get to the top. Here in So Cal they climb palms like monkeys. They
look like they are running up and down the palms. They are doing it
everyday all day.

Hank
KN6DI

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From hankarn@pacbell.net  Wed Jul  4 14:24:50 2001
From: hankarn@pacbell.net (Dan)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 06:24:50 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Will trees kill me, too?
References: <000401c10451$387c0b00$ac000f3f@default>
Message-ID: <3B431922.BB2E93DE@pacbell.net>

A crane or a bucket truck. or a Sky hook :<)) Hi.
Hank
KN6DI

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Wed Jul  4 15:37:42 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 10:37:42 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Quad Question
Message-ID: <112.12e44c3.28748436@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/3/01 10:06:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, n4kg@juno.com 
writes:

> K7LXC and others
>  recommend tuning between the CW and SSB dimensions.

    That's between CW and MID settings.

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From 107770.3462@compuserve.com  Wed Jul  4 16:15:21 2001
From: 107770.3462@compuserve.com (James  P. Cassidy)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:15:21 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Will Trees Kill Me
Message-ID: <200107041115_MC3-D829-AB84@compuserve.com>

On our FD operation I had a good demonstration of hanging wires in trees
with a slingshot.  I think it was called an Eze Hang available at HRO and
others as well.  Bill N7OU was able to shoot a small lead weight over the
very top of some very tall Fir and Pine trees.  
There was a wind at times that made it a little difficult but otherwise a
very simple operation.  The first shot was a light monofilament fishing
line that was used to pull a heavier rope for the antenna support.

You mya have a bigger plan iin mind that requires more in the trees but for
simple hanging wire antennas this can't be beat.

73 Jim KI7Y

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Wed Jul  4 16:17:30 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:17:30 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Will trees kill me, too? No.
Message-ID: <d9.16d191e7.28748d8a@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/4/01 6:23:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
hankarn@pacbell.net writes:

> You never hug the pole unless you want to breakout and slide
>  rapidly down it until your belt hooks onto a spike hopefully before your
>  body does. Knees straight both gaffs set and leaning out.
>  Practice close to the ground all aspects until you feel comfortable,
>  then go up to 10 feet, up and down to feel at home.
>  Skinning a tree is not as bad as a training pole, but we had crotch, leg
>  and arm straps along with linemen's gloves.

    All good tips. (Does 'skinning' a tree mean climbing it?)

    I'm a *real reluctant* tree climber. Customers wanted antennas and 
halyards installed in trees so I had to do it. I've installed a bunch of 
halyards for wire antennas as well as 14-15 yagis including a couple of 
402CD's.  Having never observed an arborist I had to learn while I was doing 
it.

    Gaff placement is pretty easy - just poke the spur into the tree bark. 
You need to be leaning back as was pointed out above. Once you've got both 
feet planted, lean forward to unweight the lanyard around the tree. When the 
lanyard is unweighted and both hands are holding it, flip it up so that the 
lanyard is higher on the tree. Step up until you can't go any farther because 
the lanyard is stopping you and lean forward and flip it up again. I'm sure 
we've all seen at some time those logger rodeo events where they race to the 
top of a pole and then rapidly descend; their use of flipping the lanyard up 
is pretty obvious.  Repeat as many times as necessary.

    I always have a lanyard around the tree and climb with two of them. When 
you get to branches, take the hanging one and throw it around the tree above 
the branches. When it's secured, release the bottom one and head up. More 
braches - do the same thing. Lots of times the branches will be so dense that 
all you're doing is alternating lanyards. I'm not comfortable climging branch 
to branch unbelted so I'm always attached to the tree.

    Don't confuse the two belts and do everything the same way each time; 
i.e. throw the *new* lanyard around the tree, LOOK while you clip it to your 
belt, unhook the other *old* one, hold onto the loose end as you weight the 
new belt, when you're weighted pull the old belt back around the tree, repeat 
each step every time. You can paint the ends of one of the lanyards so that 
it's obviously different than the other one.  

    I use my regular trusty Klein pole strap for tree work as well as towers. 
In a tree I have two of them. My regular is a 3-6' adjustable and the other 
tree one is 4-7'. Even at 7-feet sometimes it isn't enough to get around the 
tree. In these cases I use an extension ladder to get up higher where I can 
and/or a one-foot strap extension.  Arborists use rope with a wire inside to 
prevent cutting through it and a 'cat's paw' knot that is adjustable.

    If you want to do it yourself, up here in Washington state you can rent 
spurs and belts at a rental store. Climbing trees is HARD WORK. It's dirty 
and exhausting so you need to be reasonably commited to attempt it. 
>  
>  BE SAFE in all cases. You can always find a tree service that has a
>  climber that can go up and do the work and be on the ground before you
>  can get to the top. Here in So Cal they climb palms like monkeys. They
>  look like they are running up and down the palms. They are doing it
>  everyday all day.

    For tree work they're great. For anything else like anything to do with 
installing an antenna they not so great. If you're going to hire an arborist, 
tell him *everything* he needs to know TWICE so that once he gets up there he 
knows apporximately what to do and give him an HT so that you can give 
directions from the ground. 

    Installing HF yagis in trees is another topic. 

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From WD4K@bellsouth.net  Wed Jul  4 17:29:07 2001
From: WD4K@bellsouth.net (WD4K)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 10:29:07 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Will Trees Kill Me
In-Reply-To: <200107041115_MC3-D829-AB84@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <IJEEIEMOOMLGBHIDNPFLOEFHCKAA.WD4K@bellsouth.net>

I have used the EZE Hang for a couple of years. I works great BUT- the reel
unit that comes with it is really light weight and plastic. It will simply
not stand much use, even with the light line and will not reel light
monofilament over an 80' tree for very long. I tried pulling the line by
hand and that worked except for the mess it makes of the line unless you
have someone reeling while you are pulling. It found the bottom of the trash
bin after a few uses. I solved the problem by purchasing a VERY heavy duty,
closed faced reel in a sporting goods store. It came with 20lb mono on it,
steel gears etc. This works really well and I have had no problems since.
20lb spider wire on that reel is a winner. I have a bunch of 70 and 80'
trees and have placed pull lines over most of them with no problem. 73,
Tommy WD4K

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of James P. Cassidy
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 9:15 AM
To: TOWERTALK REFLECTOR
Subject: [TowerTalk] Will Trees Kill Me


On our FD operation I had a good demonstration of hanging wires in trees
with a slingshot.  I think it was called an Eze Hang available at HRO and
others as well.  Bill N7OU was able to shoot a small lead weight over the
very top of some very tall Fir and Pine trees.
There was a wind at times that made it a little difficult but otherwise a
very simple operation.  The first shot was a light monofilament fishing
line that was used to pull a heavier rope for the antenna support.

You mya have a bigger plan iin mind that requires more in the trees but for
simple hanging wire antennas this can't be beat.

73 Jim KI7Y

List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
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From ag0n@arrl.net  Wed Jul  4 17:15:34 2001
From: ag0n@arrl.net (Gary McDuffie, Sr.)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 10:15:34 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Will trees kill me, too? No.
In-Reply-To: <d9.16d191e7.28748d8a@aol.com>
References: <d9.16d191e7.28748d8a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <iuf6kt4a3h30h2jpn9lcupi2sfvhfite97@4ax.com>

On Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:17:30 EDT, K7LXC@aol.com wrote:

>     All good tips. (Does 'skinning' a tree mean climbing it?)

Nope...  it means coming down the hard way.  Been there, done it, on a
pole.  No training, no experience, never seen spikes before, just did it
for a friend when I was MUCH younger and didn't know a thing about it.
I got up the pole fine, felt very awkward, looked worse.  Worked on his
rotor, and then started down.  It was only about a 40 footer, but I
gouged out about 25-30' up and rode it down, looking for friction all
the way.  Not cool.  Screwed up the shirt pretty bad too.  ;o)  I felt
lucky.

Get training first!

Gary

ag0n at arrl dot net
http colon slash slash mcduffie dot ws
-- 

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From tharke@fortunehitech.net  Wed Jul  4 17:31:28 2001
From: tharke@fortunehitech.net (Tom Harke)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:31:28 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Prop Pitch
Message-ID: <PAEOIGKJHHBINMBCOMBMIEKCCAAA.tharke@fortunehitech.net>

I need help finding documentation for a W0MLY built prop pitch and control.
I have one that I had up years ago I would like to put up at my new location
but have lost the prints and wiring diagram in the moving process.

Does anyone know of a source for prop pitch repairs/maintenance?

Tom AA9A


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From tduffy@sygnet.com  Wed Jul  4 17:41:59 2001
From: tduffy@sygnet.com (Tim Duffy)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 11:41:59 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Prop Pitch
References: <PAEOIGKJHHBINMBCOMBMIEKCCAAA.tharke@fortunehitech.net>
Message-ID: <3B434757.FB6EFA83@sygnet.com>

I have the W0MLY RX1 Manual. I would be happy to copy it for you. It is two pages long.

The two RX1's I have in service work very well.

Send me your mailing address.

73,
Tim K3LR

http://www.k3lr.com



Tom Harke wrote:

> I need help finding documentation for a W0MLY built prop pitch and control.
> I have one that I had up years ago I would like to put up at my new location
> but have lost the prints and wiring diagram in the moving process.
>
> Does anyone know of a source for prop pitch repairs/maintenance?
>
> Tom AA9A
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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From K0FF@ARRL.NET  Wed Jul  4 17:10:26 2001
From: K0FF@ARRL.NET (K0FF)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 11:10:26 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rotors FS DE K0FF
Message-ID: <007801c104a3$d72b3d00$b5c249d8@K0FF>

I have posted a few of my personal rotors on eHam for sale. One is a Prop
Pitch/ M2 digital control, the other is a M2 2800PDC.

Happy Homebrewing, Geo>KØFF
www.eham.net/user/profile/K0FF
DXCC Honor Roll Mixed and Phone
6M WAS-WAC-WAZ#007
2M WAS-WAC


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From n7au@televar.com  Wed Jul  4 18:04:38 2001
From: n7au@televar.com (N7AU)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 12:04:38 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Will trees kill me, too? No.
References: <d9.16d191e7.28748d8a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B434CA6.9016282E@televar.com>

   I don't like the idea of poeple just buying a set of belt and gaffs
with the idea of I can do it myself. I climbed poles for the telephone
co for 10 years and saw some guys get hurt. Some would fall and not get
a splinter but when they hit the ground, well the back and the legs take
the force even from 5 feet up is not good. Using gaffs to climb a pole
you will leave places to pick up splinters.  Tree gaffs are another
thing. I never had to use them but they are longer gaffs and you have a
real good chance of sticking one in your leg on the way down if you
fall. You might check the insurance co and see if they will still cover
your if you fall and have not been cirtified. We had to be cirtified
every so many years. There are so many other ways to get up a pole,rent
a lift or get a lineman from the power or telephone co to do it for you.
It pays to be safe then to pay the hospital. 

    73    Bob    N7AU

K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 7/4/01 6:23:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> hankarn@pacbell.net writes:
> 
> > You never hug the pole unless you want to breakout and slide
> >  rapidly down it until your belt hooks onto a spike hopefully before your
> >  body does. Knees straight both gaffs set and leaning out.
> >  Practice close to the ground all aspects until you feel comfortable,
> >  then go up to 10 feet, up and down to feel at home.
> >  Skinning a tree is not as bad as a training pole, but we had crotch, leg
> >  and arm straps along with linemen's gloves.
> 
>     All good tips. (Does 'skinning' a tree mean climbing it?)
> 
>     I'm a *real reluctant* tree climber. Customers wanted antennas and
> halyards installed in trees so I had to do it. I've installed a bunch of
> halyards for wire antennas as well as 14-15 yagis including a couple of
> 402CD's.  Having never observed an arborist I had to learn while I was doing
> it.
> 
>     Gaff placement is pretty easy - just poke the spur into the tree bark.
> You need to be leaning back as was pointed out above. Once you've got both
> feet planted, lean forward to unweight the lanyard around the tree. When the
> lanyard is unweighted and both hands are holding it, flip it up so that the
> lanyard is higher on the tree. Step up until you can't go any farther because
> the lanyard is stopping you and lean forward and flip it up again. I'm sure
> we've all seen at some time those logger rodeo events where they race to the
> top of a pole and then rapidly descend; their use of flipping the lanyard up
> is pretty obvious.  Repeat as many times as necessary.
> 
>     I always have a lanyard around the tree and climb with two of them. When
> you get to branches, take the hanging one and throw it around the tree above
> the branches. When it's secured, release the bottom one and head up. More
> braches - do the same thing. Lots of times the branches will be so dense that
> all you're doing is alternating lanyards. I'm not comfortable climging branch
> to branch unbelted so I'm always attached to the tree.
> 
>     Don't confuse the two belts and do everything the same way each time;
> i.e. throw the *new* lanyard around the tree, LOOK while you clip it to your
> belt, unhook the other *old* one, hold onto the loose end as you weight the
> new belt, when you're weighted pull the old belt back around the tree, repeat
> each step every time. You can paint the ends of one of the lanyards so that
> it's obviously different than the other one.
> 
>     I use my regular trusty Klein pole strap for tree work as well as towers.
> In a tree I have two of them. My regular is a 3-6' adjustable and the other
> tree one is 4-7'. Even at 7-feet sometimes it isn't enough to get around the
> tree. In these cases I use an extension ladder to get up higher where I can
> and/or a one-foot strap extension.  Arborists use rope with a wire inside to
> prevent cutting through it and a 'cat's paw' knot that is adjustable.
> 
>     If you want to do it yourself, up here in Washington state you can rent
> spurs and belts at a rental store. Climbing trees is HARD WORK. It's dirty
> and exhausting so you need to be reasonably commited to attempt it.
> >
> >  BE SAFE in all cases. You can always find a tree service that has a
> >  climber that can go up and do the work and be on the ground before you
> >  can get to the top. Here in So Cal they climb palms like monkeys. They
> >  look like they are running up and down the palms. They are doing it
> >  everyday all day.
> 
>     For tree work they're great. For anything else like anything to do with
> installing an antenna they not so great. If you're going to hire an arborist,
> tell him *everything* he needs to know TWICE so that once he gets up there he
> knows apporximately what to do and give him an HT so that you can give
> directions from the ground.
> 
>     Installing HF yagis in trees is another topic.
> 
> Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
> Tower Tech
> 
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
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From 107770.3462@compuserve.com  Wed Jul  4 22:46:52 2001
From: 107770.3462@compuserve.com (James  P. Cassidy)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:46:52 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] More Slingshot info
Message-ID: <200107041747_MC3-D831-CE0E@compuserve.com>

I would like to add to my earlier post, the Eze Hang was the substitute
device.  Bill N7OU had a regular wrist rocket without the reel.  He would
just arrange the mono line on the ground so it could fly up easily.  That
worked better than the reel. He broke one of the rubber bands so used the
Eze Hang.  He also had added some tape to the leather patch on his so it
shot the weight a little more straight.

I imagine that a larger reel would be better.  Maybe even a wide smooth
open hoop as the use with archery equpment and  a line.

Now for a more fantasy idea, I recently saw a fisherman with a huge
slingshot.  It was a large metal frame and he used a boat trailer winch to
pull back the rubber cords.  It was capable of shooting a heavy weight a
couple of hundred yards.  Just an idea for those of you with bigger trees
orhave to have more power!

73 Jim KI7Y

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From TNeill1648@aol.com  Thu Jul  5 00:11:52 2001
From: TNeill1648@aol.com (TNeill1648@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 19:11:52 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Yaesu 2800DXA Rotator
Message-ID: <c5.12fc1109.2874fcb9@aol.com>

Is the mounting pattern for the Yaesu 2800DXA the same as the Hy-Gain 300?  Thanks.

Tom
K4XG

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From k3hx@juno.com  Thu Jul  5 00:39:15 2001
From: k3hx@juno.com (tttt ccccc)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 19:39:15 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wires in trees
Message-ID: <20010704.193923.-485051.1.k3hx@juno.com>

Some years ago, a scheme using 2 helium-filled baloons was

floated.  The idea was to have one baloon above the tree on

the north side of the

desired tree, another balloon on the south side.  Theory being 

that they would eventually intermingle and have the support

lines tangled allowing progressively higher strength lines to be 

pulled over the tree.


I've used the "Robin Hood meets Izzak Walton"  technique

which uses a nose weighted arrow trailing 10 pound line from an 

open-faced fishing reel.  The line is attached to the arrow by 

laying the line along the arrow behind the quill and holding it

in place with a wrap of electical tape.  This provides enough

strength for the arrow to carry the line but allows the line to

separate should the arrow get hung up in branches.  Use about

an ounce of solder wrapped on the tip in a single row coil and

cover it with electrical tape.

Wear a long-sleeved shirt or jacket and eye protection.  Use a

"weak" bow, 40 pounds is plenty to reach 100 feet.  Use an

aluminum, fiberglas or carbon fiber arrow (a real "good" one)

and be sure it is straight.  If you use a cheap, junk "target"

arrow, it may shatter upon departing the drawn bow.  (if you

care to learn more about this phenomenon, check a decent

physics text for "the archer's paradox.")

Paint the shaft of the arrow flourescent yellow or orange so you 

can find it when it goes astray.

I've used this system for over 25 years.  The slingshot 

approach is fine but if the weight wraps itself around a branch,

it will be there, twisting, twisting in the wind for the duration.

73

Tim  K3HX

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From n9rla@yahoo.com  Thu Jul  5 03:23:06 2001
From: n9rla@yahoo.com (Dan Evans)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 19:23:06 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wires in trees
References: <20010704.193923.-485051.1.k3hx@juno.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c104f9$6ee5b440$0101a8c0@danevans>

Use a
>
> "weak" bow, 40 pounds is plenty to reach 100 feet.  Use an
>
> aluminum, fiberglas or carbon fiber arrow (a real "good" one)
>

Pretty similar to what I use.  I have a 35lb pull fiberglass recurve bow.
I've used slingshots, but I'm much more accurate with the bow.  I got pretty
good at one time putting an arrow through the top rung of my 40' tower:-)
I know, climbing would have been much easier, but I can't seem to make
myself go more than about 15' up!

Planning to launch a few wires here soon, just trying to figure out how to
configure them to stay away from the darn power lines...

73
Dan


Dan Evans N9RLA
444 Lynhurst dr.
Scottsburg, IN 47170
{EM78}
IN-Ham list administrator
QRP-l #1269
1/2 of the N9RLA /R no budget Rover Team
Check out the Rover Resource Page at:
http://www.qsl.net/n9rla






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From wa9als@starband.net  Thu Jul  5 01:38:03 2001
From: wa9als@starband.net (WA9ALS - John)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 19:38:03 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] More Slingshot info
References: <200107041747_MC3-D831-CE0E@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <003801c104ea$c62ef8b0$0201a8c0@wa9als>

> Now for a more fantasy idea, I recently saw a fisherman with a huge
> slingshot.  It was a large metal frame and he used a boat trailer winch to
> pull back the rubber cords.  It was capable of shooting a heavy weight a
> couple of hundred yards.  Just an idea for those of you with bigger trees
> orhave to have more power!

This won't compete with the above, but I have had good luck with the
following "bow and arrow" technique:

1.  I purchased an inexpensive child's fiberglass bow and arrow "set" at a
local farm store.  This was something like $10, not a child's version of a
more professional bow.

2.  I also purchased a Game Tracker device with 1000 ft of bright orange
line.  This is analgous to a fishing reel, but much smaller diameter and no
moving parts.  It just houses the spool of VERY lightweight line.

3.  I just duct-taped the Game Tracker to the bow just below the arrow rest.
I tied the line to the end of the arrow near the tip and applied a round or
so of duct tape.

4.  The child's bow was easy to pull back comfortably so that aiming was
easy.  It had just the right amount of power to clear an 80-100 ft tree.
Although the line was light, it was strong enough to pull up 50 pound
fishing line next, which then pulled up the next rope.

5.  The Game Tracker and it's line replacements were much less expensive in
a local sporting goods store than anywhere I could ever find on the
Internet.

Just another option, and BE VERY CAREFUL firing arrows into the sky!!!!  I
did mine with an empty cornfield behind the tree!  ;-)  73



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From scsueepe@mtcnet.net  Thu Jul  5 02:45:04 2001
From: scsueepe@mtcnet.net (Mike King)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 20:45:04 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn 45 Fold over questions and House Bracket
Message-ID: <001901c104f4$1d3aab00$0200a8c0@solo850>

Hi all,

I was researching the Rohn catalogue on Rohn 45 house bracketed towers and
the fold over version as well.  Looking at non guyed about 44' high.

A few questions:

Looking at the instructions for the Rohn 45 Foldover tower document (Doc
#D-2526), it says to dig the tower base 3' deep.  The Bracketed tower
foundation plan (Drawing #A880445R1) says to dig it 4' deep.  Any big deal
here?  If 3 feet is enough, so much the better.

Also, the house bracket TVROHB - shows that it attaches to two legs of the
tower.  (base of the tower cross section triangle parallel to the wall)

In the fold over documentation, it indicates in many places where a house
bracket can be used in lieu of guying at the hinge point.

The fold over documentation also says if installing adjacent a building,
make sure the hinge is at right angles to the wall to allow the tower to
fold over without the boom assembly hitting the house, this part make sense.

However, if that is the case, how does one attach the house bracket then to
only one leg?  Or in that case does it actually attach to all 3 legs? (Base
of the tower cross section triangle at a right angle to the wall)

Now, I can handle it if I have to have the tower fold over on the roof, but
would rather it fold to the ground.  Anyone have experience with this?  Is
there any interference from the house bracket to the boom assembly?  Seems
to me that there would be a problem with this if the tower folds down
parallel to the wall, the boom assembly would fold down into the side of the
TVROHB.

Or in this case, would one use the HBUPM?  This however would not follow the
prime directive.  I dont think I saw the two systems described together...

Additionally, can someone comment on the bracketed Rohn 45 chart on bracket
elevation.  As for instance, they all show two heights, a lower and upper.
If the Upper is higher than the building, such as for the 40' tower unit,
30', then what does someone do?  I dont see any specs that show how high one
can go with a bracket in the 20' range, other than the fold over specs where
it indicates that the house bracket be within 2' of the hinge.

Any thoughts?  Ideas?  Suggestions...

Thanks

Mike- KM0T








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From n9iww2@verizon.net  Thu Jul  5 04:49:11 2001
From: n9iww2@verizon.net (Kevin Adam, Webz By design)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 22:49:11 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn 45 Fold over questions and House Bracket
In-Reply-To: <001901c104f4$1d3aab00$0200a8c0@solo850>
Message-ID: <000401c10505$742cc130$13a60304@n9iww>

Must be below the frost freeze line so there is no upheaval of the base
next to the house foundation movement. Cause the house footer to be
damaged.
Don't cut on the base it come back to haunt you. Rule of thumb is for
every 10 foot up in the air you go down deep 1'. A 40' high go deep 4'
to equal the base out.


N9IWW
Kevin Adam
1239 W. Till Rd.
Fort Wayne IN. 46825
219-490-7312
http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
n9iww@mail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mike King
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 8:45 PM
To: TOWERTALK@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn 45 Fold over questions and House Bracket

Hi all,

I was researching the Rohn catalogue on Rohn 45 house bracketed towers
and
the fold over version as well.  Looking at non guyed about 44' high.

A few questions:

Looking at the instructions for the Rohn 45 Foldover tower document (Doc
#D-2526), it says to dig the tower base 3' deep.  The Bracketed tower
foundation plan (Drawing #A880445R1) says to dig it 4' deep.  Any big
deal
here?  If 3 feet is enough, so much the better.

Also, the house bracket TVROHB - shows that it attaches to two legs of
the
tower.  (base of the tower cross section triangle parallel to the wall)

In the fold over documentation, it indicates in many places where a
house
bracket can be used in lieu of guying at the hinge point.

The fold over documentation also says if installing adjacent a building,
make sure the hinge is at right angles to the wall to allow the tower to
fold over without the boom assembly hitting the house, this part make
sense.

However, if that is the case, how does one attach the house bracket then
to
only one leg?  Or in that case does it actually attach to all 3 legs?
(Base
of the tower cross section triangle at a right angle to the wall)

Now, I can handle it if I have to have the tower fold over on the roof,
but
would rather it fold to the ground.  Anyone have experience with this?
Is
there any interference from the house bracket to the boom assembly?
Seems
to me that there would be a problem with this if the tower folds down
parallel to the wall, the boom assembly would fold down into the side of
the
TVROHB.

Or in this case, would one use the HBUPM?  This however would not follow
the
prime directive.  I dont think I saw the two systems described
together...

Additionally, can someone comment on the bracketed Rohn 45 chart on
bracket
elevation.  As for instance, they all show two heights, a lower and
upper.
If the Upper is higher than the building, such as for the 40' tower
unit,
30', then what does someone do?  I dont see any specs that show how high
one
can go with a bracket in the 20' range, other than the fold over specs
where
it indicates that the house bracket be within 2' of the hinge.

Any thoughts?  Ideas?  Suggestions...

Thanks

Mike- KM0T








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to
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From W8JI@contesting.com  Thu Jul  5 12:47:01 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 07:47:01 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wires in trees
In-Reply-To: <001d01c104f9$6ee5b440$0101a8c0@danevans>
Message-ID: <200107051050.f65AoUP09524@paris.akorn.net>

I use a bow and arrow, but I fill the last several inches of hollow 
aluminum arrows with solder inside the arrow by pouring molten 
solder inside the arrow.

I use a dam made from a paper wad to prevent solder from going 
more than six or eight inches deep.

I've found the arrows tend to bend less often, get through the trees 
better, and fly straighter if the outside is left intact and only the 
core filled.

When I have a large stand of trees, I use fishing line and fly a kite 
over the trees. Then I let the kite fall. Even if the line is very long, 
the kite eventually will fall when the wind dies off or shifts.

I'm able to get lines over trees areas that are several hundred feet 
wide with kites.    
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Thu Jul  5 13:08:55 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 12:08:55 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wires in trees
References: <200107051050.f65AoUP09524@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <3B4458D7.7B69B5BE@gloryroad.net>

Tom's "lead in arrow" approach seems to solve one real problem I've
encountered using slingshots.  The weights are not heavy enough to
pull the line down to the ground through tree branches et al.  It is
particularly a problem with pine trees.

I've used both a sling shot and fishing pole to get wires up in the
trees. I first try the fishing pole (if there is room to swing it)
because it can cast heavier weights and they do make it back down to
the earth.  There is nothing more frustrating that getting the line
just where you want it and then not make it back to earth.

Another problem is retrieving an errant shot.  Reeling in the line
often has the weight getting tangled in the tree branches.  It has a
tendancy to wrap around branches.  Minimizing this means selecting the
correct weight geometry.  Round is best.  Pyramidal sinkers are
worst.  Tear drop weights are in the middle.  I have quite a few
pieces of monfiliament line hanging from various tree limbs about the
property.  Use line that is light enough to break if a hangup occurs. 
Expect to replace frayed/stretched lines.

Even if you do get a good shot there is the risk that you can't pull
up a heavier line without it snagging.  The trick is to not attach the
heavier line to the weight.  Remove the weight.  Alternatively, attach
it to the reel end and cut off the line there.  You will have to pull
a small knot over the intervening branches.  You won't have to pull
the weight and knot which increases changes of a snag.

73 de Brian/K3KO 

Tom Rauch wrote:
> 
> I use a bow and arrow, but I fill the last several inches of hollow
> aluminum arrows with solder inside the arrow by pouring molten
> solder inside the arrow.
> 
> I use a dam made from a paper wad to prevent solder from going
> more than six or eight inches deep.
> 
> I've found the arrows tend to bend less often, get through the trees
> better, and fly straighter if the outside is left intact and only the
> core filled.
> 
> When I have a large stand of trees, I use fishing line and fly a kite
> over the trees. Then I let the kite fall. Even if the line is very long,
> the kite eventually will fall when the wind dies off or shifts.
> 
> I'm able to get lines over trees areas that are several hundred feet
> wide with kites.
> 73, Tom W8JI
> W8JI@contesting.com
> 
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From wa9als@starband.net  Thu Jul  5 14:24:03 2001
From: wa9als@starband.net (WA9ALS - John)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 08:24:03 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wires in trees
References: <200107051050.f65AoUP09524@paris.akorn.net> <3B4458D7.7B69B5BE@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <001301c10555$c9dc94c0$0201a8c0@wa9als>


> Even if you do get a good shot there is the risk that you can't pull
> up a heavier line without it snagging.  The trick is to not attach the
> heavier line to the weight.  Remove the weight.  Alternatively, attach
> it to the reel end and cut off the line there.  You will have to pull
> a small knot over the intervening branches.  You won't have to pull
> the weight and knot which increases changes of a snag.

I attach nylon rope to the reel-end of the fishing line.  I tie the fishing
line to the nylon rope about an inch or 2 from the end of the rope.  The
fishing line then lies alongside the rope, and then I tape it with duct tape
such that it tapers from the rope down onto the fishing line.  Although
there's a change in diamater, it's tapered and less likely than a rope knot
to snag under the bark.  With 50 pound fish line and this tapered
attachment, I can usually pull the rope up the first time.



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From K7GCO@aol.com  Thu Jul  5 16:58:29 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:58:29 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Will trees kill me, too? Potato gun
Message-ID: <12e.f247fc.2875e8a5@aol.com>

 In a message dated 7/4/01 6:21:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
kbottles@rafn.com writes:
 << Here is another approach to "wires in the tree" that I happened across 
this Field Day.
      I was riding my bicycle on Field Day Sunday morning and I came across 
the North Kitsap Amateur Radio Club gang.
      After introductions and the such, I noticed that their wire antennas 
were way the heck up in some Douglas Firs.
  Like 80-100 feet up. So I asked "How the heck did you get them so far up 
for Field Day?"
            Answer: Potato Gun
  Only took several shots from an experienced cannonier and they were in 
business with some very high wires. Seems like there could be some home 
application here.
  
  Cheers!
  Kim Bottles - K7IM
  Bainbridge Island, WA
   >>
   I saw this Potato gun in action and it's impressive.  A fairly heavy 
weight of potato is very well accelerated at a fair velocity.  Having a fair 
knowledge of internal ballistics I would make this suggestion.  I'd wrap the 
combustion chamber with several layers of fiberglass cloth and resin and 
progressively less to about 1 foot from the muzzle.  As is don't stand 
directly behind it. The pressure rise is very fast and that puts great strain 
on the tubing and joints however joined?  The quick squirt of gas in the 
chamber is a bit hard to measure.  Repeated firings will weaken any plastic 
and joints.  Just a suggestion.  As I recall it's made from PVC tubing.  
 
 Another "Magnum Sling Shot" was shown in CQ Mag.  A 3' 2"x2" is anchored to 
the top of a 6-8' step ladder and surgical tubing is used to a leather pouch 
to launch fairly heavy potatoes weights about as high as you would want to 
go.  The angle of the step ladder is about right also.  I've used sling 
shots, fishing rods and bow and arrows.  The main thing is to get it high 
enough so that it falls to the ground on the other side and that is why the 
"Magnum Version" works so well--one shot if your aim is good.  If it doesn't 
it can get hung up on branches before it hits the ground and it's almost 
impossible to pull it back.  
 
 One time I joking described gamma Matching a "Silver Maple of Iron Wood 
Tree" by connecting the coax shield to the root system.  Pull down limb about 
10' high and make a "Limb O Match".  Use the limb that gives the best match.  
The branches are not too inductive so no series capacitor is needed.  Some 
limbs are fairly inductive if the SAP reactance level is high.  A perfect 
Limb O match can be made by using certain length of limb but connecting it to 
a capacitor make from the outer bark.  You cut a 1" groove in the bark all 
the way around the tree about a foot apart to isolate it from the rest of the 
tree making a tubular Bark capacitor.  The width of the sleeve determines the 
capacity.  It's location determine the Z match.  Start reducing the width of 
the sleeve to reduce the capacity until 1:1 is obtained.  It's called the 
"Bark O Match.  You might have to practice on a tree or 2.  It makes a great 
broad banded vertical and it's very quite.  Pine trees have the right taper 
for a circular "LOG PERIODIC" for talking to the satellites and Flying 
Saucers.  Their conductivity is on the low side but if you feed it salted 
water for a day it becomes progressively conductive.  The gain increases for 
about a week before it tapers off.  
 
 Don't laugh--I've seen in Army Training Manuals some of these very 
suggestions.  They even suggested connecting to fence wires which I've 
already done.  On metal fence posts I've bent the metal tab back and added a 
wrap around Delrin insulator and bent the metal tab back to secure it.  I've 
run green insulated wire on the ground on the 3 neighbors property edge under 
a fence and they have mowed right over it.  It blends right in the grass in a 
short period of time.  Its a great listening antenna on the BC band, 160, 
80/75 and even on 40M.  It matches easily with an L Network contrary to those 
who have problems using them and the bandwidth is great.  I've even grounded 
it at the end and it's a "very quite antenna".  Preamps enhance their 
performance on receive and I've even transmitted on them. I will run a side 
by side test on 2 of them with one ungrounded.
 
 I have a lake in my back yard here and it freezes over for about a week once 
a year.  I ran an insulated wire over the ice and used it was an "Ice 
Beverage."  As the ice melts it fell to the bottom and becomes a "Mudder 
Beverage."  Would you believe it's very obvious it would never work in LSB so 
it didn't work well on 160-40M.  The Ice Beverage works great on both LSB&USB 
and it's a real "cool antenna."  It's a high angle Beverage on USB and a low 
angle Beverage on LSB using the gain of a long wire and "Mud Reflections."  
On CW it was both.  Lake mud is a very high conductivity in particular in SD. 
 That's an absolutely true story, I just made it up.  K7GCO 

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From w5kp@swbell.net  Thu Jul  5 18:55:31 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 12:55:31 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Coupling for rotators
Message-ID: <004f01c1057c$3c90f120$b520c1cf@jkdesktop>

Thanks to all for the many helpful and creative ideas on this. Turns out I
was trying to overengineer this thing. The Yaesu rotators (this is my first
Yaesu, but probably not my last - I've had it with HyGain) have a completely
removable clamshell, so all I have to do is give myself a fraction of an
inch of slack at the bottom of the mast during installation and the whole
unit will slide out sideways after removing four bolts (plus the bolt
through the mast and clamshell). I've already drilled the Yaesu-specified 9
mm "anti-slip" hole in the bottom of the mast at the proper distance to keep
the mast about 3/16" away from bottoming out in the clamshell. Saturday, I
will deliver the 23' mast to the galvanizers (a five hour round trip with
the trailer), who were fairly reasonable at $100, or $140 if they have to
blast millscale off. These guys have an serious hot dip setup - one of their
tanks is 6' x 7' x 56', believe it or not. For hot dip galvanizing street
light poles, I guess. Wonder how many BTU's it takes to keep the zinc melted
in that one! Anyway, another milestone in the 45G project is nearly reached.
73, Jerry W5KP



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From n7us@arrl.net  Thu Jul  5 20:17:58 2001
From: n7us@arrl.net (Jim McDonald)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:17:58 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Coupling for rotators
References: <004f01c1057c$3c90f120$b520c1cf@jkdesktop>
Message-ID: <008801c10587$34350ba0$f00add18@phoenix.speedchoice.com>

Jerry,

I have a G-2800SDX.  The first time I installed it, I did as Yaesu directed
and pinned the mast to the rotator. This time, I went back to not pinning
it, as I wanted to be able to rotate the mast in the rotor in case the
antennas turned in the wind.

Don't forget to support the mast from the thrust bearing, so it's not
supported by the rotor.

Jim N7US


----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Kincade" <w5kp@swbell.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 10:55 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Coupling for rotators


Thanks to all for the many helpful and creative ideas on this. Turns out I
was trying to overengineer this thing. The Yaesu rotators (this is my first
Yaesu, but probably not my last - I've had it with HyGain) have a completely
removable clamshell, so all I have to do is give myself a fraction of an
inch of slack at the bottom of the mast during installation and the whole
unit will slide out sideways after removing four bolts (plus the bolt
through the mast and clamshell). I've already drilled the Yaesu-specified 9
mm "anti-slip" hole in the bottom of the mast at the proper distance to keep
the mast about 3/16" away from bottoming out in the clamshell. Saturday, I
will deliver the 23' mast to the galvanizers (a five hour round trip with
the trailer), who were fairly reasonable at $100, or $140 if they have to
blast millscale off. These guys have an serious hot dip setup - one of their
tanks is 6' x 7' x 56', believe it or not. For hot dip galvanizing street
light poles, I guess. Wonder how many BTU's it takes to keep the zinc melted
in that one! Anyway, another milestone in the 45G project is nearly reached.
73, Jerry W5KP



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From ford@cmgate.com  Thu Jul  5 20:25:35 2001
From: ford@cmgate.com (Ford Peterson)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:25:35 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wires in trees
Message-ID: <003201c10588$4488ed40$8eed83d1@office>

I use a fishing rod and reel.  A 1" x 3/8" carriage bolt with a matching nut
works great.  Just cast it through the choice spot and the bolt drops to the
ground every time.  Use the fishing line to pull up the rope supports.

When you miss the choice spot, just break the line, pull the line back
through, re-tie the bolt and try it again.  I have never had to cast more
than 3 times to get the limb I want.  The fishing line has never been
tangled in the trees.  The KISS method at its best...

Ford-N0FP
ford@cmgate.com




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From NQ4I@compuserve.com  Thu Jul  5 20:27:10 2001
From: NQ4I@compuserve.com (Rick Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:27:10 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rotor pinning
Message-ID: <200107051527_MC3-D837-E623@compuserve.com>

I will testify to the Yasue G2800SDX and its strength...its used to turn my
2 el 80m yagi...and its the only
rotor that will except a prop pitch...the Orion breaks every time...the HDR
 300 does too...have had the G-2800 
with the 80m yagi combination for over 5 years now...de Rick

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From NQ4I@compuserve.com  Thu Jul  5 20:27:51 2001
From: NQ4I@compuserve.com (Rick Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:27:51 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] g-2800
Message-ID: <200107051528_MC3-D837-E632@compuserve.com>

also for got to mention that the rotor and mast are pinned too...it has to
be done...de Rick

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From broadwayr@valero.com  Thu Jul  5 20:47:07 2001
From: broadwayr@valero.com (broadwayr@valero.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:47:07 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] RTP Assembly For Rohn 4N
Message-ID: <OFEF8BEB38.7DA25C25-ON86256A80.006C9149@valero.com>

I am looking for a RTP assembly that will fit the top of a Rohn 4N section.
I have a 60 foot SSV with a 6N base, 5N middle and a 4N top. If someone
could recommend a source I would be most pleased.

73

Robert R. Broadway
KQ5L
broadwayr@valero.com



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From wd3q@erols.com  Thu Jul  5 22:23:19 2001
From: wd3q@erols.com (Eric Rosenberg)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 17:23:19 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] New Chinese yagis
In-Reply-To: <200106240349.f5O3n9W09428@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010705171804.00a07180@pop3.norton.antivirus>

My family and I are just back from 2 weeks in China, about 1/3 was 
spent in Shanghai with friends.  For a city this large (17m people, we 
were told), where you drive -- well, sit in traffic -- to go just about 
anywhere, I saw only one antenna setup that looked even remotely like 
an amateur setup.

Didn't see anything in Beijing, but wasn't here long enough to 
look.  Did see one 'amateur like' setup in Guilin (SE China), however.

I emailed the Shanghai Radio Sports Association in advance hoping to 
set something up, but never got a response.

Maybe next time.

Eric W3DQ


At 11:49 PM 6/23/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:57:22 EDT
>From: K7LXC@aol.com
>Subject: [TowerTalk] New Chinese yagis
>
>Greetings, TowerTalkians --
>
>     I was alerted to these new Chinese yagis by Fred Laun, K3ZO. 
> Hopefully
>this is an indicator of increased interest and activity for amateur 
>radio in
>China. http://www.ba4ed.com/
>
>Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
>Tower Tech


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From wd7s@ARRL.NET  Fri Jul  6 03:21:25 2001
From: wd7s@ARRL.NET (Paul Hewitt)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:21:25 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tri-Ex Tower Info Needed
Message-ID: <NEBBIHDGKLALHKAEIGALIEGDCDAA.wd7s@ARRL.NET>

Greetings
I'm looking for info on the Tri-Ex model HS 6105
guyed crank-up tower.  I have the catalogue pages
but would like a copy of the owner's/installation
manual.  Happy to pay copy/mailing costs.  The
factory was no help.
Thanks, Paul

end
Paul Hewitt
WD7S PRODUCTIONS
QRO HOMEBREW COMPONENTS
http://wd7s.home.att.net


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From K7GCO@aol.com  Fri Jul  6 08:29:21 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 03:29:21 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Prop Pitch
Message-ID: <b0.16e68fc3.2876c2d1@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/4/01 9:33:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
tharke@fortunehitech.net writes:

<< I need help finding documentation for a W0MLY built prop pitch and control.
 I have one that I had up years ago I would like to put up at my new location
 but have lost the prints and wiring diagram in the moving process.
 
 Does anyone know of a source for prop pitch repairs/maintenance?
 
 Tom AA9A
  >>
I may be in about 6 months.  I have done a lot of work on others prop pitch 
motors and have a lot of internal pictures of them.  If you check the 
archives I've had several Posts in there on PP Motors and have a few more to 
release.  It's a great rotator. k7gco.

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From jsluder@gorilla.net  Fri Jul  6 21:43:44 2001
From: jsluder@gorilla.net (Jerry SLUDER)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 15:43:44 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hazer for Trylon Titan 72 foot Tower.
Message-ID: <3B462300.E3927052@gorilla.net>

The Glen Martin Company does not make their Hazer to function on
freestanding-taperd towers such as my Titan mfgrd by Trylon.I have
designed a possible solution using off the shelf materials. I have some
questions to pose
A   has anyone tried this, sucessfully or unsuccessfully?
B   I hope to mount a 6 ele long boom 20 meter beam on the sled (not
using the term"Hazer")and I think this will put the considerable torque
of the array outside of the tower instead of  in the center of the tower
as usual installation. Any need for torque arms?
C  Anyone had any thoughts as to how a Sled for Trylon Titan towers
might look like?
D Any opinions as to wether I am wasting my time or courting a disaster?

Help.........Jerry W5WDN

P.S  Trylon has not provided any info as to how much torque the tower
can handle under my Sled condidtions and the are very pessimistic about
the extra load torque arms would add...........


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From W1RM@HOME.COM  Fri Jul  6 23:00:46 2001
From: W1RM@HOME.COM (Peter Chamalian)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 18:00:46 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cell antennas on Ham Towers
Message-ID: <NEBBIDPBILPIFPFPDMOAIEOOCJAA.W1RM@HOME.COM>

I've been approached by a cell provider who is interested in renting space
on my tower for a cell antenna/cell site.  Has anyone had experience with
this?  Care to share?

Thanks!

Pete, W1RM
W1RM@home.com


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From PJPilot@aol.com  Sat Jul  7 00:02:24 2001
From: PJPilot@aol.com (PJPilot@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 19:02:24 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Log Periodic Antenna recommendation?
Message-ID: <7b.172eae85.28779d80@aol.com>

Could you folks steer me in the right direction of a good log Periodic 
Antenna ?

The one I am looking at is the Tennadyne 10 ele. (T-10)

However I am open to comments or suggestions.
Thanks for all your help!!

Kind Regards,
PJ - W7PJS

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From eisinger@micron.net  Sat Jul  7 02:49:11 2001
From: eisinger@micron.net (Eisinger)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 19:49:11 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Log Periodic Antenna recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <7b.172eae85.28779d80@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBKJKDOFDBOOINMCFKEEDPCBAA.eisinger@micron.net>

PJ-

I have been extremely happy with the M2 "Skip-Log" (covers 7-30 mHz).  It is
extremly well constructed, performs great, and the service from M2 can't be
beat.

73's,
Bill, AA7X

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of PJPilot@aol.com
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 5:02 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Log Periodic Antenna recommendation?


Could you folks steer me in the right direction of a good log Periodic
Antenna ?

The one I am looking at is the Tennadyne 10 ele. (T-10)

However I am open to comments or suggestions.
Thanks for all your help!!

Kind Regards,
PJ - W7PJS

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www.ChampionRadio.com</A>

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From W8JI@contesting.com  Sat Jul  7 02:53:34 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 21:53:34 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Log Periodic Antenna recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <7b.172eae85.28779d80@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200107070057.f670v0P03825@paris.akorn.net>

> Could you folks steer me in the right direction of a good log Periodic
> Antenna ?
> 
> The one I am looking at is the Tennadyne 10 ele. (T-10)

I'm not sure how well the Tennadyne antennas work, but one thing 
that bothers me is Tennadyne's feed system. 

They have two "hot booms", they put a balun at the feedpoint, then 
they run the coax back along the boom the shield connects and 
exit to the tower without a choke at that point!

That means the shield leaves the antenna with voltage on it, and 
also that the balun at the feedpoint is electrically shorted and does 
nothing. 

Assuming the shield connects to the lower boom and the coax 
runs along that boom, the correct location for the balun is at the 
exit point where the cable leaves the boom and goes to the tower. 

Most certainly not at the feedpoint! A friend of mine had all sorts of 
problems with RF on the feedline until he moved his balun.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From ei8ic@eircom.net  Sat Jul  7 08:56:04 2001
From: ei8ic@eircom.net (Tim Makins,  EI8IC)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 08:56:04 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Log Periodic Antenna recommendation?
References: <7b.172eae85.28779d80@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00d601c106ba$4cc8db40$d5ada5c2@c1o1c2>

You might like to check out these guys.

http://www.titanex.de/

They have a US distributor but I can't remember who. I haven't used one of
these myself, but had a long QSO with someone who did, and raved about them.

Tim, www.qsl.net/ei8ic/

----- Original Message -----
From: <PJPilot@aol.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: 07 July 2001 00:02
Subject: [TowerTalk] Log Periodic Antenna recommendation?


> Could you folks steer me in the right direction of a good log Periodic
> Antenna ?
>
> The one I am looking at is the Tennadyne 10 ele. (T-10)
>
> However I am open to comments or suggestions.
> Thanks for all your help!!
>
> Kind Regards,
> PJ - W7PJS



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From w2up@mindspring.com  Sat Jul  7 17:20:15 2001
From: w2up@mindspring.com (Barry Kutner)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 16:20:15 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing rivets?
Message-ID: <200107071620.MAA30803@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Looking for advice on how to remove rivets. New territory for me...
Tnx,
Barry
--
Barry Kutner, W2UP              Internet: w2up@mindspring.com
Newtown, PA         FRC         alternate: barry@w2up.wells.com

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From w2up@mindspring.com  Sat Jul  7 17:27:39 2001
From: w2up@mindspring.com (Barry Kutner)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 16:27:39 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing rivets?
In-Reply-To: <200107071620.MAA30803@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200107071627.MAA15943@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

BTW, these are not solid rivets. They have a hole in the center.
Barry

On 7 Jul 01, Barry Kutner wrote:

> Looking for advice on how to remove rivets. New territory for me...
> Tnx,
> Barry

--
Barry Kutner, W2UP              Internet: w2up@mindspring.com
Newtown, PA         FRC         alternate: barry@w2up.wells.com

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From n9iww2@verizon.net  Sat Jul  7 17:39:04 2001
From: n9iww2@verizon.net (Kevin Adam, Webz By design)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 11:39:04 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing rivets?
In-Reply-To: <200107071627.MAA15943@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <000f01c10703$566d1410$13a60304@n9iww>

Use A Drill And a bit the same size or next one larger always works just
don't push to hard your after the top of the rivet to drill it off.


N9IWW
Kevin Adam
1239 W. Till Rd.
Fort Wayne IN. 46825
219-490-7312
http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
n9iww@mail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Barry Kutner
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 11:28 AM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Removing rivets?

BTW, these are not solid rivets. They have a hole in the center.
Barry

On 7 Jul 01, Barry Kutner wrote:

> Looking for advice on how to remove rivets. New territory for me...
> Tnx,
> Barry

--
Barry Kutner, W2UP              Internet: w2up@mindspring.com
Newtown, PA         FRC         alternate: barry@w2up.wells.com

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From k1ttt@berkshire.net  Sat Jul  7 16:55:41 2001
From: k1ttt@berkshire.net (David Robbins)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 16:55:41 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing rivets?
References: <200107071620.MAA30803@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3B4730FD.3B2E3F50@berkshire.net>

if the rivets are tight you can use a drill bit just a bit larger than the hole
in the rivet.  most pop rivets take about a 1/8" hole, i use a 3/16" or so bit
and drill just until the head comes off, don't push hard and stop quickly or you
will enlarge the orginal hole.  when the head is off you can use a small awl or
nail set to push out the back side of the rivet.  

if they are loose in the hole you can use a small dremel(sp?) tool or a file to
grind the head off.

if they are really loose ones and are aluminum you can often get a pair of side
cutting wire cutters under them and just snip the heads off.


Barry Kutner wrote:
> 
> Looking for advice on how to remove rivets. New territory for me...
> Tnx,
> Barry

-- 
David Robbins K1TTT
e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
web: http://www.k1ttt.net
AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net

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From w2up@mindspring.com  Sat Jul  7 18:29:28 2001
From: w2up@mindspring.com (Barry Kutner)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 17:29:28 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing rivets?
In-Reply-To: <200107071627.MAA15943@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <200107071620.MAA30803@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200107071729.NAA21340@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

Thanks guys. Got plenty of replies in less than an hour! (What are 
you guys doing indoors on such a nice day (at least here in the 
northeast)? :.)
73,
Barry

On 7 Jul 01, Barry Kutner wrote:

> BTW, these are not solid rivets. They have a hole in the center.
> Barry
> 
> On 7 Jul 01, Barry Kutner wrote:
> 
> > Looking for advice on how to remove rivets. New territory for me...
> > Tnx,
> > Barry
> 
> --
> Barry Kutner, W2UP              Internet: w2up@mindspring.com
> Newtown, PA         FRC         alternate: barry@w2up.wells.com
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> 


--
Barry Kutner, W2UP              Internet: w2up@mindspring.com
Newtown, PA         FRC         alternate: barry@w2up.wells.com

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From K7GCO@aol.com  Sat Jul  7 19:32:59 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 14:32:59 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Log Periodic Antenna recommendation?
Message-ID: <11f.150ad5a.2878afdb@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/6/01 6:48:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
eisinger@micron.net writes:

<< PJ-
 
 I have been extremely happy with the M2 "Skip-Log" (covers 7-30 mHz).  It is
 extremly well constructed, performs great, and the service from M2 can't be
 beat.
 
 73's,
 Bill, AA7X
  >>
Good service is getting "very rare".  Mostly what I hear now is what the 
"can't, won't and don't want to do for me" after spending a lot of money with 
them on major problems.  There is a practice now of dealers telling you "to 
eat your lemon" as they claim they still come back and buy things.  A lemon 
is a problem for them also with the Mfg.  Other Professions have a practice 
of "screwing everyone equally" as they have a "captive market."  The are 
"equal opportunity screwers."  They even send you bills for malpractice or 
other professional screw ups.  I don't happen to pay them for this.  

I had a bit on TT about what Paul Harvey said of "We live in a junk 
society--we have junk cars, junk food, junk books, junk camera, junk radios 
even junk sex on and on."  We also have junk, crooked professions and 
political parties which get voted into office repeatedly.  When practices are 
shady right at the top it filters down everywhere--as normal and even 
promoted.  It even filters down to "technical thinking, technical products 
and advertisements."  One would wonder how one can think "technically 
crooked."  I have news for you--it is widely practiced and they fight back 
when exposed.  How many of them would have got out of class without being 
flunked for "technical dishonesty" is a "big mystery".  Yet they are 
supported as "technical authorities" by many everywhere.  Whistle blowers are 
the "bad guys".  

M2, Raibeam, Antenna Mart and many others deserve your business who sell 
great products and I'd support them.  New and effective designs are bad 
mouthed for long periods of time until competent evaluators give it a clean 
bill of health.  Large sums of money and time can be invested in a new 
product and killed or sales crippled by the "Army of the Performance 
Misinformed" and does a lot of damage unfortunately without recourse.   

Making "Life Time Customers" will still get a business by during the next sun 
spot low or over all recession.  People have long memories.  Walmart is one 
of the most successful of all with generally lower prices.  I just read a 
report of a meeting they had discussing lower profits which everyone is 
having.  Less customer service was discussed and would be improved.  Can you 
imagine that?   

Unfortunately the only recourse you have on many bad products is to inspect 
them carefully and/or never to buy from them again and let others know about 
it if you get stuck.  On many products I demand to try it there or I don't 
buy it.  The last 2 that I failed to do this on I had to return (don't do as 
I do--do as I say hi).  It saves returning many bad items at your expense.  
On things that can't be tested there, clearly establish a return policy.  
When you have purchased as many things as I have you learn to do a lot of 
these things and suggest them to others.  k7gco     

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From ford@cmgate.com  Sat Jul  7 20:31:22 2001
From: ford@cmgate.com (Ford Peterson)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 14:31:22 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Open Sleeve 80/40 Vertical
Message-ID: <002601c1071b$68550bc0$41ed83d1@office>


My goal is to build an 80/40 vertical antenna this summer.  I've been
modeling the antenna and have some questions for those "in-the-know" on
Towertalk...

There is an article on the design on pp 7-16 of the 19th Ed of the Antenna
Book (ARRL) by Roger Cox-WB0DGF.  The article describes the function of the
"Open Sleeve" antenna but no real design dimensions.  Modeling the antenna
was the only reasonable approach.

I have access to substantial quantities of 20' lengths of used well casing.
It is 2-3/8" galvanized (thick wall) steel pipe.  The main element ( 60'
with some top loading) is insulated from ground.  Two grounded side elements
of ~ 1/4 wavelength (on 40 m)form the transmission line for the 40 meter
element.  On 80 meters, they are almost transparent.  For 80 meter
operation, the whole mess loads together.

After screwing around with AO and NEC2 for some time, I have the dimensions
for the sleeves.  Using 1.315" chain link fence top rail material for the
sleeves dictates a modeled dimension of 32.86'.  The spacing on the sleeves
is 2.45' on each side of the main element.  The feedpoint impedance dictates
a series capacitor of about 1000 pf to resonate at close to 50 ohms on both
80 (3.550 mHz) and 40 (7.150 mHz).  Both AO and NEC2 confirm similar
results.  Using 2, 3 or 4 sleeves changes all the dimensions slightly to
obtain resonance.  I see no benefit to using more than two sleeves.
Although I didn't model it, one sleeve may be sufficient.

The hat in my model is a pair of perpendicular extensions extending 3.88'
off the main element and the tips are connected with 14 awg wire.  This
forms a square hat roughly 5.5' on a side with the corners supported by the
cross members attached to the top of the main element.

The model shows a good omni pattern (expected) and fair bandwidth.  < 2:1 up
to 3.85 mHz or so and the whole 40 meter band.  I can't wait to get my hands
on it this winter when the bands are quiet!

I have questions though.  Perhaps some have had experience with this type of
antenna and can shed some light.

1) The model shows that the sleeve spacing is quite critical.  Do I need to
be able to adjust this distance in place or can I simply fabricate a fixed
element bracket--slam it into the air and forget it?  More to the point: Are
open sleeve designs a bear to resonate?

2) The main structure will be 60' with some top hat (see above).  The well
casing has quite a thick wall but the couplings are threaded.  Should I weld
these couplings solid first before hoisting it up?

3) I am hoping to get by with a two tiered guy system.  Perhaps 50' and 25',
spaced 120 degrees.  Adequate?

4) What distance should I place the guys from the tower?  35' OK?

5) I want to hoist the antenna using a derrick arrangement (well casing
again).  Using a 6" x 6" post for center support (cemented in of course).  I
will drill a large hole in the main element and run a large diameter bolt
(perhaps 1/2" solid rod threaded on the ends) through the main element and
the post.  With the assembled antenna laying on the ground, a 35' length of
well casing will be temporarily attached to the post using a similar solid
rod arrangement.  The guys will be attached all the way around.  The derrick
will be vertical with the two guys attached to the end (top).  Using the
pickup, I'll attach to the derrick and pull.  The top of the derrick will
have ropes attached that run to either side of the tower to prevent it from
tipping over during the lift.  Does this sound reasonable?  The well casing
must weigh in at 60 - 80 lb per 20' length.  Add the top load and the
sleeves -- it will be quite heavy.  I want to succeed in building this
antenna.  I don't want to kill anybody in the process!

Any and all comments, including "you're f....ing nuts!" are greatly
appreciated.  I'll let you guys know my progress went there is some
progress.

Thanks for the bandwidth...

Ford-N0FP
ford@cmgate.com




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From i4jmy@iol.it  Sat Jul  7 20:48:28 2001
From: i4jmy@iol.it (Maurizio Panicara)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 21:48:28 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Open Sleeve 80/40 Vertical
References: <002601c1071b$68550bc0$41ed83d1@office>
Message-ID: <002f01c1071d$cdbc4bc0$7fb52097@i4jmy>


The higher band in the open sleeve cell is inherently much narrower in
bandwidht than a free 1/4 Wl radiator.
I'm not sure the open sleeve is a good idea in this case where the bandwith
has to be
consistent.
I've a structure that's reasonant @ 3.5 MHz and I use that vertical on 80
and 40m.
I fed it with two separate gamma matches and the solution looks easy and
effective.

73,
Mauri I4JMY
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ford Peterson" <ford@cmgate.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 9:31 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Open Sleeve 80/40 Vertical


>
> My goal is to build an 80/40 vertical antenna this summer.  I've been
> modeling the antenna and have some questions for those "in-the-know" on
> Towertalk...
>
> There is an article on the design on pp 7-16 of the 19th Ed of the Antenna
> Book (ARRL) by Roger Cox-WB0DGF.  The article describes the function of
the
> "Open Sleeve" antenna but no real design dimensions.  Modeling the antenna
> was the only reasonable approach.
>
> I have access to substantial quantities of 20' lengths of used well
casing.
> It is 2-3/8" galvanized (thick wall) steel pipe.  The main element ( 60'
> with some top loading) is insulated from ground.  Two grounded side
elements
> of ~ 1/4 wavelength (on 40 m)form the transmission line for the 40 meter
> element.  On 80 meters, they are almost transparent.  For 80 meter
> operation, the whole mess loads together.
>
> After screwing around with AO and NEC2 for some time, I have the
dimensions
> for the sleeves.  Using 1.315" chain link fence top rail material for the
> sleeves dictates a modeled dimension of 32.86'.  The spacing on the
sleeves
> is 2.45' on each side of the main element.  The feedpoint impedance
dictates
> a series capacitor of about 1000 pf to resonate at close to 50 ohms on
both
> 80 (3.550 mHz) and 40 (7.150 mHz).  Both AO and NEC2 confirm similar
> results.  Using 2, 3 or 4 sleeves changes all the dimensions slightly to
> obtain resonance.  I see no benefit to using more than two sleeves.
> Although I didn't model it, one sleeve may be sufficient.
>
> The hat in my model is a pair of perpendicular extensions extending 3.88'
> off the main element and the tips are connected with 14 awg wire.  This
> forms a square hat roughly 5.5' on a side with the corners supported by
the
> cross members attached to the top of the main element.
>
> The model shows a good omni pattern (expected) and fair bandwidth.  < 2:1
up
> to 3.85 mHz or so and the whole 40 meter band.  I can't wait to get my
hands
> on it this winter when the bands are quiet!
>
> I have questions though.  Perhaps some have had experience with this type
of
> antenna and can shed some light.
>
> 1) The model shows that the sleeve spacing is quite critical.  Do I need
to
> be able to adjust this distance in place or can I simply fabricate a fixed
> element bracket--slam it into the air and forget it?  More to the point:
Are
> open sleeve designs a bear to resonate?
>
> 2) The main structure will be 60' with some top hat (see above).  The well
> casing has quite a thick wall but the couplings are threaded.  Should I
weld
> these couplings solid first before hoisting it up?
>
> 3) I am hoping to get by with a two tiered guy system.  Perhaps 50' and
25',
> spaced 120 degrees.  Adequate?
>
> 4) What distance should I place the guys from the tower?  35' OK?
>
> 5) I want to hoist the antenna using a derrick arrangement (well casing
> again).  Using a 6" x 6" post for center support (cemented in of course).
I
> will drill a large hole in the main element and run a large diameter bolt
> (perhaps 1/2" solid rod threaded on the ends) through the main element and
> the post.  With the assembled antenna laying on the ground, a 35' length
of
> well casing will be temporarily attached to the post using a similar solid
> rod arrangement.  The guys will be attached all the way around.  The
derrick
> will be vertical with the two guys attached to the end (top).  Using the
> pickup, I'll attach to the derrick and pull.  The top of the derrick will
> have ropes attached that run to either side of the tower to prevent it
from
> tipping over during the lift.  Does this sound reasonable?  The well
casing
> must weigh in at 60 - 80 lb per 20' length.  Add the top load and the
> sleeves -- it will be quite heavy.  I want to succeed in building this
> antenna.  I don't want to kill anybody in the process!
>
> Any and all comments, including "you're f....ing nuts!" are greatly
> appreciated.  I'll let you guys know my progress went there is some
> progress.
>
> Thanks for the bandwidth...
>
> Ford-N0FP
> ford@cmgate.com
>
>
>
>
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>
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From franknorton@home.com  Sat Jul  7 22:08:58 2001
From: franknorton@home.com (Frank Norton)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 17:08:58 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk]
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010707161425.00a0db60@mail>


Tom w8ji makes some interesting but uninformed comments about the Tennadyne 
feed  system.  The booms are in fact the feedpoint for the antenna and the 
collins balun belongs at the transition from the unbalanced coax line, to 
the balanced line necessary in any log periodic construction. The parallel 
booms substitute for the balanced line and make the antenna much more 
efficient. The potential of the lower (or upper) boom is the same as that 
of the feed line.  The booms are simply aluminum feedline, they are not 
radiators, just balanced line.  The idea that the balun at the feedpoint 
forms a dead short is simply untrue when you study the construction if that 
were true every antenna forms a short at some point because the shield 
grounds the antenna.  Whether it is a log, a vertical, or a yagi.

By the way you do not have to strap the coax to the lower boom if you don't 
want to, it can drape down or use separators if you like, but they are 
unnecessary.  It is true that you have to be careful not to have any barrel 
connector touching the boom but a single layer of tape is sufficient 
insulation.  You can also add a RF choke if you like, again it isn't 
necessary but it would prevent spurious emissions from the unbalanced 
coaxial feedline from the choke to the antenna.

I own 2 models of Tennadyne LPDA's (1 HF, 1 VHF) and both work 
wonderfully.  No RF on the coax either, hi hi!  I have also owned The 
Sommer hybrid log, as well as the other generic brand, as well as F12 C4E, 
and other yagis but none performed with the pattern and forward gain of my 
T-10.  I have never owned any other VHF log so I will not comment on others 
in that field.

Chuck designs and sells antenna systems to military and civilian entities 
all over the world, I am sure they would note any problems that I have 
not.  My advice is to examine the theory of Log Periodic Dipole Antenna 
construction, I found it fascinating.  Once you have, I believe that you 
will find that no one exceeds the quality or efficiency of Tennadyne.

I respect Toms idea but it simply isn't true if you study the construction 
of the Tennadyne LPDA.  You can have my pair of Tennadynes when you pry 
them from my cold, dead, fingers as the saying goes.  (No, I am not related 
to Chuck, I don't get paid, or a discount etc......)

Thanks for your time.  Please no flames, this is meant in discussion not 
attack of any other brands.

Excerpt of comments to save bandwidth:
W8JI wrote: " That means the shield leaves the antenna with voltage on it, and
also that the balun at the feedpoint is electrically shorted and does
nothing.
Assuming the shield connects to the lower boom and the coax
runs along that boom, the correct location for the balun is at the
exit point where the cable leaves the boom and goes to the tower.
Most certainly not at the feedpoint! "

73,

Frank, kb8xu


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From n1lo@hotmail.com  Sat Jul  7 23:51:47 2001
From: n1lo@hotmail.com (Mark .)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 18:51:47 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Take down Rohn 25G tower with crane?
Message-ID: <F93Yx3G5aYY61LEdyt300001964@hotmail.com>


Hello All,

I have been asked to help take down a tower for a friend, Scott, AG4GO. It 
is 10 sections of Rohn 25G in commercial use that was given to my friend for 
free. The top section is a sleeve-top, and there is a single, 
folded-monopole commercial antenna on top.
After inspecting the tower, I determined that it definitely was not properly 
installed. It is only guyed at 2 heights, 50 and 90 feet, and the anchors 
are 12 foot, 4" diameter steel pipes that make inspecting the guying 
hardware difficult, since they are so high. There are only 2 cable clamps at 
each termination, and some of them are saddled on the wrong side, pinching 
the 'live', load-bearing side of the cable.
Some of the hardware has a little rust, and the top guys are loose with 
considerable sag.
All of the tower joint bolts are rusted and some of the joints we could see 
at the bottom had been overtightened such that the legs were somewhat 
squeezed out-of-round. However, the sections themselves seem to be 
structurally sound.

This tower has been up for well over 10 years. The guy hardware is 
substandard, but not broken. I think I could climb the tower safely if I 
placed temporary guys on it, but I am hesitant to do this.

Scott can arrange for a crane to help us, very inexpensively. My question 
is, can this tower be picked up and layed down in one piece without bending 
it? This would be much safer, and would allow many people to work on the 
tower joint bolts simultaneously, saving us a lot of time.

If any of you have done this with Rohn 25 of similar height, please write 
and describe how you did it.

Any other comments and recommendations are welcome.

Thanks,

--...MARK_N1LO...--
_________________________________________________________________
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From nn4t@bellsouth.net  Sun Jul  8 02:17:55 2001
From: nn4t@bellsouth.net (steve)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 20:17:55 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna modeling
Message-ID: <00e601c1074b$d24eb640$14974cd8@v6m0f6>


I would like to take a look at my antennas, particularly the stacks I have
and how they might be modified. Which is the best Windows program the do
this? Thanks, Steve, NN4T.



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From n9iww2@verizon.net  Sun Jul  8 02:56:33 2001
From: n9iww2@verizon.net (Kevin Adam, Webz By design)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 20:56:33 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Take down Rohn 25G tower with crane?
In-Reply-To: <F93Yx3G5aYY61LEdyt300001964@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c10751$37c77b10$13a60304@n9iww>


Here's my suggestion use the crane if have to connect it to the tower if
the crane has two cables use one connected to the tower and one to
basket that lifts personnel up to lift you up to where you the crane has
to attach go up in the basket to connect the crane cable to the tower
this I believe is safer the climbing it because your in the cage basket
supported by the crane  also keep in mind you can buy Rohn 25g 10ft
sections for about $75 each at R&L electronics I just checked last month
will the cost of take down be worth the price of new tower or cheaper in
the long run. The crane would have to be free to use to be worth it or
just the price of fuel for crane.
$750 versus 1500-2500 for crane not worth the cost.
 
N9IWW
Kevin Adam
1239 W. Till Rd.
Fort Wayne IN. 46825
219-490-7312
http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
n9iww@mail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mark .
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 5:52 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Take down Rohn 25G tower with crane?


Hello All,

I have been asked to help take down a tower for a friend, Scott, AG4GO.
It 
is 10 sections of Rohn 25G in commercial use that was given to my friend
for 
free. The top section is a sleeve-top, and there is a single, 
folded-monopole commercial antenna on top.
After inspecting the tower, I determined that it definitely was not
properly 
installed. It is only guyed at 2 heights, 50 and 90 feet, and the
anchors 
are 12 foot, 4" diameter steel pipes that make inspecting the guying 
hardware difficult, since they are so high. There are only 2 cable
clamps at 
each termination, and some of them are saddled on the wrong side,
pinching 
the 'live', load-bearing side of the cable.
Some of the hardware has a little rust, and the top guys are loose with 
considerable sag.
All of the tower joint bolts are rusted and some of the joints we could
see 
at the bottom had been overtightened such that the legs were somewhat 
squeezed out-of-round. However, the sections themselves seem to be 
structurally sound.

This tower has been up for well over 10 years. The guy hardware is 
substandard, but not broken. I think I could climb the tower safely if I

placed temporary guys on it, but I am hesitant to do this.

Scott can arrange for a crane to help us, very inexpensively. My
question 
is, can this tower be picked up and layed down in one piece without
bending 
it? This would be much safer, and would allow many people to work on the

tower joint bolts simultaneously, saving us a lot of time.

If any of you have done this with Rohn 25 of similar height, please
write 
and describe how you did it.

Any other comments and recommendations are welcome.

Thanks,

--...MARK_N1LO...--
_________________________________________________________________
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From k6xt@arrl.net  Sun Jul  8 03:19:06 2001
From: k6xt@arrl.net (Art Charette)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 19:19:06 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tri-Ex LM354
Message-ID: <KLEKIGONPAGNJGIJAOGCMEDFCBAA.k6xt@arrl.net>


I am in need of a base for this tower. Anyone have any advice where I can
get one, or get the plans?

Regards
Art K6XT
k6xt@arrl.net
http://www.topband.net/k6xt/k6xt.html


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From thorh@worldnet.att.net  Sun Jul  8 14:18:20 2001
From: thorh@worldnet.att.net (Thor Hallen)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 06:18:20 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tennadyne LPDA Balun Location
In-Reply-To: <200107070057.f670v0P03825@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <LNBBILANEJPNFNGIELAICEAKCIAA.thorh@worldnet.att.net>


W8JI correctly observes that the Tennadyne balun is not located in the ideal
location. This has been noted by others and Chuck at Tennadyne did not argue
the point when I discussed it with him. His explanation was that the current
balun location offers a simple, low-cost solution. I modified my T6 by
locating a PL259 connector at the feedpoint on the lower boom and feeding an
insulated wire from the center conductor through holes drilled in both booms
to the top side where it is secured with a self tapping screw. I then
rewound the choke balun to leave 6 feed of coax to reach the PL259 connector
when the balun is secured near the mast on the lower boom. This modification
provides a robust mechanical connection and minimizes RF on the coax to the
shack. Chuck was reluctant to incorporate the modification in his design
because of the increased cost.


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From jamesd1@flash.net  Sun Jul  8 15:08:45 2001
From: jamesd1@flash.net (James R. Duffey)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 08:08:45 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80/40 antenna feed
Message-ID: <B76DC58C.B119%jamesd1@flash.net>


You might check the Hints and Kinks in the June 77 QST. Wes Hayward, W7ZOI,
decribes a dual band feeding system that allows a quarter wave vertical on
40 M to be also fed on 20 M as a half wave vertical using the same feedline.
I think you could use the same scheme with your 80 M vertical. The antenna
is fed with a series LC resonant on 40 M and a shunt C. On 40 M the series
LC is essentially a short circuit and the shunt C is not significant. On 20
M the series LC looks like an indutance and with the shunt C it forms an L
network. The values are fairly critical, but Wes gives suggestions in the
article.

Recall that verticals work best with good grounds. Put lots of wire in the
ground.- Dr. Megacycle KK6MC/5
-- 
James R. Duffey KK6MC/5
30 Casa Loma Road
Cedar Crest, NM 87008


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From ww5l@gte.net  Sun Jul  8 16:07:35 2001
From: ww5l@gte.net (Tom Anderson)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 10:07:35 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Base for TriEx WT51???
References: <200107080220.WAA16693@vegas.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <3B487737.E31530A6@gte.net>




TowerTalk@contesting.com wrote:

> Posted By WW5L
>
> Has anyone had a succesful order lately with TriEX (First Call Communications)?
>
> I am considering ordering an extra base for my WT51 in case my XYL (WY5H) and I move in the near future.  I e-mailed First Call and they quoted a price in excess of $400 for a base, when their website listed it at about $260.  They said it would take a month to manufacture and would NOT be made by them or Tri EX, but someone else.  When TriEx was TriEx and sold direct their rep said they kept bases in stock.  I talked to a U.S. Tower rep at a recent hamfest and they said the old Tri Ex plant in Visalia CA was vacant.
>
> I'm not trying to flame First Call or Tri Ex, just trying to find out if bases for a WT 51 are still being manufactured.  If we move the XYL and I will probably sell the WT51 and get a motorized tower as the arthritis is affecting my shoulder joints.  Can't find out either if an electric winch is made to fit the WT 51.
>
> Tom Anderson, WW5L
> Colleyville, Texas
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> You received this message because you are subscribed to
> receive messages about this topic in the TowerTalk
> Forum on Contesting Online.
>
> To discontinue this subscription, please visit this link:
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From K7LXC@aol.com  Sun Jul  8 16:40:51 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:40:51 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Take down Rohn 25G tower with crane?
Message-ID: <7a.175bf1c3.2879d903@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/7/01 6:54:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
n9iww2@verizon.net writes:

> $750 versus 1500-2500 for crane not worth the cost.
>   
    And that's not even taking the "risk factor" into consideration. Here's 
another important LXC Law of Tower Work: THE RISKIEST THING YOU CAN DO WITH A 
TOWER IS TAKE ONE DOWN THAT YOU KNOW ABOSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT.

    If you do want to tackle it, you might consider temporary guying it. Put 
a set of temporary guys at say the 40' level and attach them to the BOTTOM of 
the existing guy pipes with nylon slings. Use a comealong and cable grip to 
tension each one of them. Go up to 80' and repeat. Now you're up high enough 
to attach the crane hook. Do that and then go down to the 50' level and take 
out the leg joint bolts. Loosen all the above guys and have the crane lift 
off the top 50'. Repeat for the bottom 50' and you're done. 

    This is something that unless you're confident in your skills to take it 
down safely, either get professionals involved or I'd walk away from it too. 
Just because it's free doesn't mean it's worth it. 

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From n4kg@juno.com  Sun Jul  8 18:20:46 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:20:46 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Take down Rohn 25G tower with crane?
Message-ID: <20010708.121933.-235885.0.N4KG@juno.com>


On Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:40:51 EDT K7LXC@aol.com writes:

THE RISKIEST THING YOU CAN  DO WITH A  TOWER IS TAKE 
ONE DOWN THAT YOU KNOW ABOSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT.

>     This is something that unless you're confident in your skills to 
> take it  down safely, either get professionals involved or I'd walk 
> away from  it too.  Just because it's free doesn't mean it's worth it. 
> 
> Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
> Tower Tech 
>

N4KG agrees WHOLEHEARTEDLY, as does ROHN.

Just check some of the Rohn advertisements in QST warning about 
removing towers, especially if someone else did the installation.
Pay particular attention to the base.  NEVER *assume* that  it can 
support even one or two sections safely without guys.

Tom  N4KG




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From k1my@qwest.net  Sun Jul  8 19:06:00 2001
From: k1my@qwest.net (Bruce Makas)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:06:00 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
Message-ID: <EOEFIGFENHCAGPPJFHAHCEGCCGAA.k1my@qwest.net>


Anyone know a place where I can buy 3M 33+  in a case lot? The local home
depot wants a lot per roll.

thanks,  Bruce K1MY

Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona


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From howk2@hotmail.com  Sun Jul  8 19:17:42 2001
From: howk2@hotmail.com (Howard Klein)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 18:17:42
Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
Message-ID: <F87p3Ui9DGWnFnXsO1W00010a8d@hotmail.com>


Bruce,

Grainger- www.grainger.com 14.76 for 10 rolls.

Howard..K2HK


>From: "Bruce Makas" <k1my@qwest.net>
>To: "towertalk submital" <towertalk@contesting.com>
>Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
>Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:06:00 -0700
>
>
>Anyone know a place where I can buy 3M 33+  in a case lot? The local home
>depot wants a lot per roll.
>
>thanks,  Bruce K1MY
>
>Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona
>
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call 
>us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
>HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
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>Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
>Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


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From n3rr@erols.com  Sun Jul  8 18:40:14 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 18:40:14 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
References: <F87p3Ui9DGWnFnXsO1W00010a8d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001801c107d5$0cdb1f40$4c0c2c42@billspiii>


Just to be sure everyone has heard this - Scotch Super 88
is MUCH better for Ham use than 33+.  Super 88 is the top of the line.
It sticks better, longer, etc, in the sun, etc.

I know we've posted this many times on TT over the years, but anyone
new might think 33+ is the tape to buy - NOT!

Bill, N3RR


----- Original Message -----
From: Howard Klein <howk2@hotmail.com>
To: <k1my@qwest.net>
Cc: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?


>
> Bruce,
>
> Grainger- www.grainger.com 14.76 for 10 rolls.
>
> Howard..K2HK
>
>
> >From: "Bruce Makas" <k1my@qwest.net>
> >To: "towertalk submital" <towertalk@contesting.com>
> >Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
> >Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:06:00 -0700
> >
> >
> >Anyone know a place where I can buy 3M 33+  in a case lot? The local home
> >depot wants a lot per roll.
> >
> >thanks,  Bruce K1MY
> >
> >Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona
> >
> >
> >List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
> >us
> >for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> >96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> >HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> >www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> >-----
> >FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> >Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> >Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> >Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>


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-----
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From w2up@mindspring.com  Sun Jul  8 19:49:52 2001
From: w2up@mindspring.com (Barry Kutner)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 18:49:52 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
In-Reply-To: <001801c107d5$0cdb1f40$4c0c2c42@billspiii>
Message-ID: <200107081849.OAA12740@granger.mail.mindspring.net>


I've had Scotch 33 in service for 10 years. The key to longevity is 
not stretching it as you lay it down.
Barry W2UP

On 8 Jul 01, Bill Hider wrote:

> 
> Just to be sure everyone has heard this - Scotch Super 88
> is MUCH better for Ham use than 33+.  Super 88 is the top of the line.
> It sticks better, longer, etc, in the sun, etc.
> 
> I know we've posted this many times on TT over the years, but anyone
> new might think 33+ is the tape to buy - NOT!
> 
> Bill, N3RR
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Howard Klein <howk2@hotmail.com>
> To: <k1my@qwest.net>
> Cc: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 6:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
> 
> 
> >
> > Bruce,
> >
> > Grainger- www.grainger.com 14.76 for 10 rolls.
> >
> > Howard..K2HK
> >
> >
> > >From: "Bruce Makas" <k1my@qwest.net>
> > >To: "towertalk submital" <towertalk@contesting.com>
> > >Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
> > >Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:06:00 -0700
> > >
> > >
> > >Anyone know a place where I can buy 3M 33+  in a case lot? The local home
> > >depot wants a lot per roll.
> > >
> > >thanks,  Bruce K1MY
> > >
> > >Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona
> > >
> > >
> > >List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
> > >us
> > >for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
> to
> > >96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> > >HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > >www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> > >
> > >-----
> > >FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > >Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > >Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > >Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> >
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
> us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
> to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
> >
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> 


--
Barry Kutner, W2UP              Internet: w2up@mindspring.com
Newtown, PA         FRC         alternate: barry@w2up.wells.com

List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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From ssouva@twcny.rr.com  Sun Jul  8 20:44:11 2001
From: ssouva@twcny.rr.com (Scott & Sherry Souva)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 15:44:11 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] G-450A Alignment
Message-ID: <003f01c107e6$5c949b40$6501a8c0@twcny.rr.com>


TT List,

My Yaesu G-450A rotor is off 15 degrees.  Does anyone know how to align the
rotor from the control box?  The back panel has an unlabeled switch and two
pots.  My instruction manual was put away in a safe place. I wish I remember
where!

Sorry for the duplicate message.  I forgot to change the format to Plain
Text on the first msg.

TNX.

Scott Souva
KG2S
ssouva@twcny.rr.com


List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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From wa2bpe@exotrope.net  Sun Jul  8 21:46:12 2001
From: wa2bpe@exotrope.net (WA2BPE)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 16:46:12 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
References: <EOEFIGFENHCAGPPJFHAHCEGCCGAA.k1my@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <3B48C693.9D5F9E68@exotrope.net>


Two good sources of almost any hardware are:  http://www.mcmaster.com/  and
http://www.mscdirect.com/  .  They both will sell to individuals and delivery is
f-a-s-t!  Note that it is sometimes harder to tell an exact brand with McMaster than MSC
but both are reputable.

Tom - WA2BPE

Bruce Makas wrote:

> Anyone know a place where I can buy 3M 33+  in a case lot? The local home
> depot wants a lot per roll.
>
> thanks,  Bruce K1MY
>
> Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com


List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
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From marc.wullaert3@pandora.be  Sun Jul  8 21:48:55 2001
From: marc.wullaert3@pandora.be (Marc Wullaert)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 22:48:55 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] TAKE A LOOK AT THIS GREAT PRODUCT Ref: (RFF-213 Ferrite Core Block for RG-213 )
Message-ID: <003401c107f0$217a6760$3e68e0d5@pandora.be>


Waters-and-Stanton are offering a new type of ferrite cores clamps to snap
on coax.
There are to types , one for RG58 and one for RG213.
The cores are effective over a range from 1-300mhz,and are equivalent to six
ferrite beads in series,
buth with higher impedance and more extended frequency.
this is there site
http://www.wsplc.com
click on products
than rf-measuring
than rf filters

anybody tried one off these ?


on4ma
marc




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From n3rr@erols.com  Sun Jul  8 22:56:12 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 22:56:12 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
References: <001601c107fc$e3c3d660$1f8aad3f@hkman>
Message-ID: <00a801c107f8$ce821540$4c0c2c42@billspiii>


Hi Pat,

Well, to reduce cost, I once bought two boxes (10 rolls each) of 33+, having
use Super 88 previously, but not knowing
any better.  (BTW, this was when I was in the middle of installing my
station and going through a box every couple of months.)

The 33+ just didn't stick as well as Super 88.  I could tell the difference
almost immediately, but kept using it.  The ends of the 33+ would start to
"peel up" after a few weeks, on antennas, on grounding of the shield,
everywhere, especially in the sunlight. Super 88 never came off.

I sold the remaining box and vowed never to buy anything but Super 88 again.

A few years ago, on this reflector, others said the same thing when this
thread came up.

I have heard from one other person tonight that he used 33+ and hasn't had a
problem.  But, in my case, I
went through a hundred rolls of tape from 1993-1999 installing antennas,
cables, uninstalling, repairing, etc and
have found Super 88 to be superior to 33+.

If you take the two side by side and attach (stick) them to something, then
remove them, you can feel the difference.

Bill, N3RR


----- Original Message -----
From: Pat Poirier <hkmannh@totalnetnh.net>
To: Bill Hider <n3rr@erols.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?


> Hi Bill,
>
> I have had Super 33 out on my tower for over three years and it has worked
> and stayed in place fine. Besides the thickness what is the difference
?????
>
> Pat W1KA
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Hider <n3rr@erols.com>
> To: Howard Klein <howk2@hotmail.com>; k1my@qwest.net <k1my@qwest.net>
> Cc: towertalk@contesting.com <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Date: Sunday, July 08, 2001 2:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
>
>
> >
> >Just to be sure everyone has heard this - Scotch Super 88
> >is MUCH better for Ham use than 33+.  Super 88 is the top of the line.
> >It sticks better, longer, etc, in the sun, etc.
> >
> >I know we've posted this many times on TT over the years, but anyone
> >new might think 33+ is the tape to buy - NOT!
> >
> >Bill, N3RR
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Howard Klein <howk2@hotmail.com>
> >To: <k1my@qwest.net>
> >Cc: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> >Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 6:17 PM
> >Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Bruce,
> >>
> >> Grainger- www.grainger.com 14.76 for 10 rolls.
> >>
> >> Howard..K2HK
> >>
> >>
> >> >From: "Bruce Makas" <k1my@qwest.net>
> >> >To: "towertalk submital" <towertalk@contesting.com>
> >> >Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
> >> >Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:06:00 -0700
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Anyone know a place where I can buy 3M 33+  in a case lot? The local
> home
> >> >depot wants a lot per roll.
> >> >
> >> >thanks,  Bruce K1MY
> >> >
> >> >Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
> Call
> >> >us
> >> >for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
up
> >to
> >> >96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> >> >HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> >> >www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >> >
> >> >-----
> >> >FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> >> >Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> >> >Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> >> >Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >> >
> >>
> >> _________________________________________________________________
> >> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> >>
> >>
> >> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call
> >us
> >> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
up
> >to
> >> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> >HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> >> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >>
> >> -----
> >> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> >> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> >> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> >> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
> us
> >for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> >96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> >www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> >-----
> >FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> >Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> >Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> >Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
>


List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
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From steve@oakcom.com  Sun Jul  8 11:59:40 2001
From: steve@oakcom.com (Steve Maki)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 06:59:40 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
In-Reply-To: <F87p3Ui9DGWnFnXsO1W00010a8d@hotmail.com>
References: <F87p3Ui9DGWnFnXsO1W00010a8d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4jegktc8pghu6jq7j75stgt2iqm3cm06l4@4ax.com>


RE: Scotch 33+

"Howard Klein" <howk2@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Grainger- www.grainger.com 14.76 for 10 rolls.

Intrigued by this price, I looked - it's for the 20' rolls.

The 66' rolls are $3.53 each, slightly higher than commonly
available. Home Depot is usually around 2.95 each.

--
Steve K8LX

List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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From tfwagner@snet.net  Mon Jul  9 00:00:31 2001
From: tfwagner@snet.net (Tom Wagner)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 19:00:31 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
References: <200107081849.OAA12740@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <025c01c10801$ca52d460$0200a8c0@snet.net>


I have always heard that you SHOULD stretch electrical tape for
all but the last turn or two.  I use Scotch Tartan which I get for
50 cents a roll.  I change things around enough that I don't want to
pay $4 a roll for the Cadillac tape.

73,
Tom Wagner - N1MM
Check out the N1MM Free Contest Logger at
http://pages.cthome.net/n1mm/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/N1MMLogger


----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Kutner <w2up@mindspring.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 14:49
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?


>
> I've had Scotch 33 in service for 10 years. The key to longevity is
> not stretching it as you lay it down.
> Barry W2UP
>
> On 8 Jul 01, Bill Hider wrote:
>
> >
> > Just to be sure everyone has heard this - Scotch Super 88
> > is MUCH better for Ham use than 33+.  Super 88 is the top of the line.
> > It sticks better, longer, etc, in the sun, etc.
> >
> > I know we've posted this many times on TT over the years, but anyone
> > new might think 33+ is the tape to buy - NOT!
> >
> > Bill, N3RR
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Howard Klein <howk2@hotmail.com>
> > To: <k1my@qwest.net>
> > Cc: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 6:17 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Bruce,
> > >
> > > Grainger- www.grainger.com 14.76 for 10 rolls.
> > >
> > > Howard..K2HK
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Bruce Makas" <k1my@qwest.net>
> > > >To: "towertalk submital" <towertalk@contesting.com>
> > > >Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
> > > >Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:06:00 -0700
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Anyone know a place where I can buy 3M 33+  in a case lot? The local
home
> > > >depot wants a lot per roll.
> > > >
> > > >thanks,  Bruce K1MY
> > > >
> > > >Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call
> > > >us
> > > >for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
up
> > to
> > > >96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> > > >HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > > >www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> > > >
> > > >-----
> > > >FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > > >Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > > >Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > > >Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> > >
> > >
> > > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call
> > us
> > > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
up
> > to
> > > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> > HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> > >
> > > -----
> > > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
>
>
> --
> Barry Kutner, W2UP              Internet: w2up@mindspring.com
> Newtown, PA         FRC         alternate: barry@w2up.wells.com
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>


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From steve@oakcom.com  Sun Jul  8 12:06:31 2001
From: steve@oakcom.com (Steve Maki)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 07:06:31 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
In-Reply-To: <001801c107d5$0cdb1f40$4c0c2c42@billspiii>
References: <F87p3Ui9DGWnFnXsO1W00010a8d@hotmail.com> <001801c107d5$0cdb1f40$4c0c2c42@billspiii>
Message-ID: <59fgkt8soj0am7l885ba4s7ebp2qivno44@4ax.com>


Bill N3RR wrote:

>Just to be sure everyone has heard this - Scotch Super 88
>is MUCH better for Ham use than 33+.  Super 88 is the top of the line.
>It sticks better, longer, etc, in the sun, etc.

According to 3M, it is exactly the same tape - except 88 is slightly
thicker. I've found 33+ to be equal quality - YMMV.

--
Steve K8LX

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From k9zm@frontiernet.net  Mon Jul  9 01:03:47 2001
From: k9zm@frontiernet.net (Greg Gobleman)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 19:03:47 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
References: <F87p3Ui9DGWnFnXsO1W00010a8d@hotmail.com> <001801c107d5$0cdb1f40$4c0c2c42@billspiii> <59fgkt8soj0am7l885ba4s7ebp2qivno44@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <002801c1080c$b57bbe20$9cab82d1@k9zm>


>
> According to 3M, it is exactly the same tape - except 88 is
slightly
> thicker. I've found 33+ to be equal quality - YMMV.
>
> --
> Steve K8LX
>

Same here.  I will add that the last wrap or two wraps is
critical to the longevity in the sun.  Take the time to cut it
when your finishing up a wrap.  Currently my oldest Scotch 33
outdoors is nearly 4 years old and not showing any signs of
unwrapping.  I have had older at another QTH.

Greg K9ZM


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From hankarn@pacbell.net  Mon Jul  9 02:02:38 2001
From: hankarn@pacbell.net (Dan)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 18:02:38 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
References: <F87p3Ui9DGWnFnXsO1W00010a8d@hotmail.com>
 <001801c107d5$0cdb1f40$4c0c2c42@billspiii>
 <59fgkt8soj0am7l885ba4s7ebp2qivno44@4ax.com>
 <002801c1080c$b57bbe20$9cab82d1@k9zm>
Message-ID: <3B4902AE.B4CCD98@pacbell.net>


I third that comment. 33 is fine if the last 2 or so wraps are pre-cut
and the stretch is done before that.

Hank
KN6DI

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From howk2@hotmail.com  Mon Jul  9 02:27:32 2001
From: howk2@hotmail.com (Howard Klein)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 01:27:32
Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
Message-ID: <F41YldT6d3OCcSkpLiS00010fc3@hotmail.com>


Thanks Steve,
Did not realize they were 20' rolls. Local Home Depot charges $ 3.57. 
Champion Radio was 10 for $35 last time I ordered.

Howard..K2HK


>From: Steve Maki <steve@oakcom.com>
>To: towertalk@contesting.com
>Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
>Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 06:59:40 -0400
>
>
>RE: Scotch 33+
>
>
> >Grainger- www.grainger.com 14.76 for 10 rolls.
>
>Intrigued by this price, I looked - it's for the 20' rolls.
>
>The 66' rolls are $3.53 each, slightly higher than commonly
>available. Home Depot is usually around 2.95 each.
>
>--
>Steve K8LX
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


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From ford@cmgate.com  Mon Jul  9 03:18:54 2001
From: ford@cmgate.com (Ford Peterson)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 21:18:54 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] DXpedition to ND
Message-ID: <001101c1081d$815fd660$56ed83d1@office>


There's a contingent of guys locally (central Minnesota) that think it would
be nifty to activate North Dakota during a 160 contest this winter.  I think
their instincts are correct, they'd be pretty popular.

Anybody aware of a location that may have a structure to use for an antenna?
A commercial tower or defunct AM broadcast station would be perfect
(hopefully with a heated facility with flushing toilets hi hi).  I've even
been pondering loading a village water tank.  You never know...find the
right tap point it'd no doubt take power.  I'm sure there must be a village
in ND with a flea bag hotel next to the water tank...

If you've ever been to North Dakota, you would understand how rare a 40'
tree can be.  Most are 30' or less.  Any ideas would be appreciated.

Ford-N0FP
ford@cmgate.com




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From w5kp@swbell.net  Mon Jul  9 04:06:54 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 22:06:54 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
References: <F87p3Ui9DGWnFnXsO1W00010a8d@hotmail.com>
 <001801c107d5$0cdb1f40$4c0c2c42@billspiii>
Message-ID: <001901c10824$369eb4a0$b308b8d1@jkdesktop>


I took down my small tower today. It had Scotch 88T all over it, six years
in the sun now. Not a single piece had worked loose, and every piece came
off cleanly and with no problems. Surfaces underneath were as new. Can't
beat it.
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hider <n3rr@erols.com>
To: Howard Klein <howk2@hotmail.com>; <k1my@qwest.net>
Cc: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?


>
> Just to be sure everyone has heard this - Scotch Super 88
> is MUCH better for Ham use than 33+.  Super 88 is the top of the line.
> It sticks better, longer, etc, in the sun, etc.
>
> I know we've posted this many times on TT over the years, but anyone
> new might think 33+ is the tape to buy - NOT!
>
> Bill, N3RR
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Howard Klein <howk2@hotmail.com>
> To: <k1my@qwest.net>
> Cc: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 6:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
>
>
> >
> > Bruce,
> >
> > Grainger- www.grainger.com 14.76 for 10 rolls.
> >
> > Howard..K2HK
> >
> >
> > >From: "Bruce Makas" <k1my@qwest.net>
> > >To: "towertalk submital" <towertalk@contesting.com>
> > >Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
> > >Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:06:00 -0700
> > >
> > >
> > >Anyone know a place where I can buy 3M 33+  in a case lot? The local
home
> > >depot wants a lot per roll.
> > >
> > >thanks,  Bruce K1MY
> > >
> > >Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona
> > >
> > >
> > >List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call
> > >us
> > >for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
up
> to
> > >96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> > >HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > >www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> > >
> > >-----
> > >FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > >Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > >Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > >Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> >
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call
> us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
> to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
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> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
> >
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>
>


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From tao@skypoint.com  Mon Jul  9 06:59:29 2001
From: tao@skypoint.com (Tod Olson)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 23:59:29 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Who's on top?
Message-ID: <ALEBLDFHBLGBHPOFNFOPEEEIDJAA.tao@skypoint.com>


I suspect that I could get this answer from a diligent search of the TT
archives, but it is much more fun to get current thinking and experience.

I am planning to install a 40 meter beam (40-2CD) on the same tower and mast
as my triband beam (TH7). Should I place the 40 meter beam over the triband
beam or the other way around. Assume that there will be at least 8 feet of
separation between the two antennas and that the lowest antenna will be no
higher than 72 feet above ground. The antennas will be on a telescoping
tower so the height above ground is another variable (between 32 feet and 72
feet for the lowest antenna).

I have had a suggestion that I turn the booms so that they are 90 degrees to
each other. I can see that will introduce some interesting wind forces on
the tower and the rotator. Anyone have an opinion (or even some experience)
with this concept?

Tod, KØTO


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From n6nz@n6nz.net  Mon Jul  9 08:10:07 2001
From: n6nz@n6nz.net (Dave N6NZ)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 00:10:07 -0700
Subject: OK! I get it. Re: [TowerTalk] Will trees kill me, too?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010703230413.00984780@ns.dave-curtis.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010708235433.00993970@ns.dave-curtis.com>


Hmmm... The preponderance of opinion seems to be that acquiring climbing 
spikes without a clear idea of how to use them properly is one of the more 
bonehead ideas I've had of late.  At least I have my nickname for the next 
Sprint! HI!

As to alternate methods... that 3/8" carriage bolt is probably a bit much 
for a even 6 weight fly rod, and besides it would probably break the tippet 
on the back cast. Anyway, I'm glad some folks have found a legitimate use 
for a spinning reel. :-)  Personally, archery sounds like the way to go for 
me. In days past I was a good shot, but its been a few years. At least I 
have some training and experience with the pointy end, which is more that I 
can say for climbing spikes.

73, Dave N6NZ




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From K7LXC@aol.com  Mon Jul  9 08:18:08 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 03:18:08 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
Message-ID: <114.15e4664.287ab4b0@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/8/01 11:18:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
howk2@hotmail.com writes:

> Grainger- www.grainger.com 14.76 for 10 rolls.

    For that price I don't think it's 33 or 88 - the ONLY common electrical 
tapes worth using. Just about anything else is junk.

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Mon Jul  9 08:23:35 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 03:23:35 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
Message-ID: <1e.183ec5ac.287ab5f7@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/8/01 11:41:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, n3rr@erols.com 
writes:

> Just to be sure everyone has heard this - Scotch Super 88
>  is MUCH better for Ham use than 33+.  Super 88 is the top of the line.
>  It sticks better, longer, etc, in the sun, etc.
>  
>  I know we've posted this many times on TT over the years, but anyone
>  new might think 33+ is the tape to buy - NOT!
    
    33+ and 88 are identical except for the fact that 88 is thicker - 0.215 
mm for 88 vs. 0.177 mm for 33+.

    Some people prefer 88 because it's thicker and resists UV better. Your 
choice. 

Cheers,    Steve   K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Mon Jul  9 08:38:46 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 03:38:46 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tape and wxproofing
Message-ID: <d5.8d25ee8.287ab986@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/8/01 4:06:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tfwagner@snet.net 
writes:

> I have always heard that you SHOULD stretch electrical tape for
>  all but the last turn or two.  I use Scotch Tartan which I get for
>  50 cents a roll.  I change things around enough that I don't want to
>  pay $4 a roll for the Cadillac tape.
>  
    The trick to weatherproofing connectors is a function of the right tape 
and the right technique. The right tape in my book is either Scotch 33+ or 88.

    You DO stretch the tape as you're applying it. 33+ and 88 both conform 
excellently and the stretching helps do this. If the joint is vertical, make 
the final wrap UP. This will give you the proper overlap for shedding water 
migrating down the cable. It's like the shingles on a roof - install them 
(and the tape) backwards and you've got a perfect channel for directing water 
right INTO your joint. 

    The last tip is to let the final wrap relax before applying it. If you 
pull it tight, it'll "flag" in a short time. Let it relax and it won't flag 
for a long time. A clean margin at the end of the tape is important also. 
Telephone company installers used to use scissors but if you've got sharp 
fingernails or a regular or razor knife - they'll work too. 

    Of course to do the 'bombproof' joint, you also apply a layer of vapor 
wrap and then  a couple more wraps of tape. 

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From ww5l@gte.net  Mon Jul  9 11:31:13 2001
From: ww5l@gte.net (Tom Anderson)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 05:31:13 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tape and wxproofing
References: <d5.8d25ee8.287ab986@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B4987F1.F12CA310@gte.net>




I've found both Scotch 88 and 33 equally good tape.  As an an added assurance for
weatherproofing something that absolutely, positively has to stay dry is to use
Scotchkote (I think I spelled it correctly).  Its a gooey black or dark green molasses
like substance in pint cans made by 3M that will seal out moisture as long as the entire
length of tape is painted with it and then a slight overlap.  A ham friend who also used
to work for a professional tower & mobile radio installer recommended it to me years
ago.  He said he had used it on underwater cable installations with no moisture seepage.
I just took down a tribander whose connections had been coated with it in 1992 and they
were totally dry.  Had to replace the cable because of a lightning hit.  Scotchkote can
be a bit pricey around $15-$20 a pint can, but the stuff lasts forever, I'm still using
the can I bought in 1992. Just make sure you tighten the lid, which also has a small
brush to paint the fitting.

Tom, WW5L




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From n4kg@juno.com  Mon Jul  9 06:09:25 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 23:09:25 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
Message-ID: <20010709.060900.-231339.0.N4KG@juno.com>


I tape HyGain traps (TH3, TH6, TH7) by pulling Scotch 33
tight enough to stretch, starting at the small end, and then
finishing with a non-stretched turn or two at the large end.
It's still there.

Tom  N4KG

On Sun, 8 Jul 2001  "Barry Kutner" <w2up@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> I've had Scotch 33 in service for 10 years. The key to longevity is 
> not stretching it as you lay it down.
> Barry W2UP
> 
> On 8 Jul 01, Bill Hider wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Just to be sure everyone has heard this - Scotch Super 88
> > is MUCH better for Ham use than 33+.  Super 88 is the top of the 
> line.
> > It sticks better, longer, etc, in the sun, etc.
> > 
> > I know we've posted this many times on TT over the years, but 
> anyone
> > new might think 33+ is the tape to buy - NOT!
> > 
> > Bill, N3RR
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Howard Klein <howk2@hotmail.com>
> > To: <k1my@qwest.net>
> > Cc: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 6:17 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
> > 
> > 
> > >
> > > Bruce,
> > >
> > > Grainger- www.grainger.com 14.76 for 10 rolls.
> > >
> > > Howard..K2HK
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Bruce Makas" <k1my@qwest.net>
> > > >To: "towertalk submital" <towertalk@contesting.com>
> > > >Subject: [TowerTalk] where do you buy?
> > > >Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 11:06:00 -0700
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Anyone know a place where I can buy 3M 33+  in a case lot? The 
> local home
> > > >depot wants a lot per roll.
> > > >
> > > >thanks,  Bruce K1MY
> > > >
> > > >Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this 
> summer? Call
> > > >us
> > > >for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting 
> towers - up
> > to
> > > >96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> > > >HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > > >www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> > > >
> > > >-----
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> http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
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> > >
> > > 
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at 
> http://explorer.msn.com
> > >
> > >
> > > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this 
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> 
> --
> Barry Kutner, W2UP              Internet: w2up@mindspring.com
> Newtown, PA         FRC         alternate: barry@w2up.wells.com
> 
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From n4kg@juno.com  Mon Jul  9 13:24:05 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 06:24:05 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Who's on top?
Message-ID: <20010709.063841.-231339.5.N4KG@juno.com>


Hi Tod,

I would put the 40M beam on top (80 ft).  40M antennas play
VERY WELL at 80 to 100 ft.  My experience with several
High Band beams is that 80 to 100 ft sucks during the day
when lower antennas are usually better to EU and AF.
High band antennas above  80 ft are good for opening /
closing the bands or in summer when MUF's rarely exceed
25 MHz.  

FWIW, I like 110 to 120 ft for HIGH high band antennas
since the second lobe is in the middle of the useful high
angle range.  At 80 to 100 ft, the second lobe is usually
above the range supported by the ionosphere and is 
therefore a useless loss of radiation with a NULL in the
useful range of angles supported by the ionosphere.

Before installing the 402CD, I would double wall the first
section of each element, reinforce the boom ends and center
(dowel or tubing), and replace the non-stainless steel screws
in the coil assemblies with SS bolts and locking nuts (or
lock tight).

de  Tom  N4KG


On Sun, 8 Jul 2001  "Tod Olson" <tao@skypoint.com> writes:
> 
> I suspect that I could get this answer from a diligent search of the 
TT
> archives, but it is much more fun to get current thinking and 
> experience.
> 
> I am planning to install a 40 meter beam (40-2CD) on the same tower 
> and mast
> as my triband beam (TH7). Should I place the 40 meter beam over the 
> triband
> beam or the other way around. Assume that there will be at least 8 
> feet of
> separation between the two antennas and that the lowest antenna will 
> be no
> higher than 72 feet above ground. The antennas will be on a 
> telescoping
> tower so the height above ground is another variable (between 32 
> feet and 72
> feet for the lowest antenna).
> 
> I have had a suggestion that I turn the booms so that they are 90 
> degrees to
> each other. I can see that will introduce some interesting wind 
> forces on
> the tower and the rotator. Anyone have an opinion (or even some 
> experience)
> with this concept?
> 
> Tod, KØTO
> 
>

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From k6ll@juno.com  Mon Jul  9 07:46:44 2001
From: k6ll@juno.com (Dave Hachadorian)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 06:46:44 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Who's on top?
Message-ID: <20010709.065022.-16660247.0.K6LL@juno.com>




On Sun, 8 Jul 2001 23:59:29 -0600 "Tod Olson" <tao@skypoint.com> writes:
> 
> I am planning to install a 40 meter beam (40-2CD) on the same tower 
> and mast
> as my triband beam (TH7). Should I place the 40 meter beam over the 
> triband
> beam or the other way around. Assume that there will be at least 8 
> feet of
> separation between the two antennas and that the lowest antenna will 
> be no
> higher than 72 feet above ground.

I'd put the antenna with the smallest windload (40) on top.
Since the far-field pattern is composed of roughly equal parts
of the direct ray and the ground-reflected ray, it doesn't matter
if the near-field pattern is asymmetrical in the vertical plane.
This assumption holds for horizontally polarized beam antennas over
reasonably flat terrain.

> 
> I have had a suggestion that I turn the booms so that they are 90 
> degrees to
> each other. 

User experience here on Towertalk indicates that the KT-34XA, TH-6,
and TH-7 stack nicely with the 40-2CD with the booms aligned. If
you mount the 40 at 90 degrees, I'd really worry about that 22'
40m boom, end-loaded by the 40 reflector, and the coax run to the
40 driven element being in the middle of the tribander's elements.

With the booms aligned, the only thing you have to worry about is
the length of the unused
feedline dangling off the 40, when you are using the tribander.
That feedline can make the 40 driven element resonant in one of
the tribander bands. You can test for this interaction by shorting
and unshorting the 40 meter feedline, observing swr and rear
rejection on the tribander. If there is interaction, just change
the length of the 40 meter feedline until it goes away. You don't
have to worry about the 40 reflector. It won't bother the tribander.

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ
K6LL@juno.com

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From k1vr@juno.com  Mon Jul  9 14:20:13 2001
From: k1vr@juno.com (Fred Hopengarten)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 09:20:13 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Who's on top?
Message-ID: <20010709.094523.-160161.10.k1vr@juno.com>



On Sun, 8 Jul 2001 23:59:29 -0600 "Tod Olson" <tao@skypoint.com> writes:
> 
> I am planning to install a 40 meter beam (40-2CD) on the same tower 
> and mast as my triband beam (TH7). 

K1VR:  I mounted my TH6 at 97' on a five foot mast, and my 40-2CD at 90'
on a RingRotor. Works beautifully, even when in line together (i.e., not
90 degrees of separation). Not a theoretical answer, but an experiential
answer.

Fred Hopengarten K1VR                        
hopengarten@post.harvard.edu
Six Willarch Road * Lincoln, MA 01773-5105
781/259-0088 *eFax 419/858-2421
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From Fred Helmstetter" <fhelmstetter@wi.rr.com  Mon Jul  9 17:10:07 2001
From: Fred Helmstetter" <fhelmstetter@wi.rr.com (Fred Helmstetter)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 09:10:07 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Telerex 6 el / 6m Yagi ?
Message-ID: <004701c10891$9f447b30$9f801d41@BigDog>



Can anyone help me find the specs/dimentions for a Telerex 6 element 6m
beam?  I have the boom and a few scraps of elements. I'd like to know the
element lengths, sizes and taper data.  Don't have a specific model number
but can provide element spacing.

BTW - thanks to everybody who forwarded Hy-Tower info after my question a
while back.  Stood it up last night but the radials may have to wait until
the weeds and insects quit in the fall ;-)

Tnx & 73,

Fred, N9FH




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From k1xt@hotmail.com  Mon Jul  9 15:23:50 2001
From: k1xt@hotmail.com (bill thomas)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 09:23:50 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] TA-33 coil turns
Message-ID: <LAW2-F23C4wgKuu8FZg0000109c@hotmail.com>




I'm rebuilding an old TA-33 for a new ham.  I need to know the coil turns 
for the traps as I believe the traps are mixed up and all the markings have 
faded away.  I used to have a TA-33 manual that showed the turns for each 
coil in each trap, but I threw it out some time back.  Can anyone help who 
may have the information?

Bill k1xt@hotmail.com
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From W8JI@contesting.com  Mon Jul  9 15:57:30 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 10:57:30 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Log Periodic Antenna recommendation?
In-Reply-To: <11f.150ad5a.2878afdb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200107091400.f69E0uP28901@paris.akorn.net>


> M2, Raibeam, Antenna Mart and many others deserve your business who sell
> great products and I'd support them.  New and effective designs are bad
> mouthed for long periods of time until competent evaluators give it a
> clean bill of health.  Large sums of money and time can be invested in a
> new product and killed or sales crippled by the "Army of the Performance
> Misinformed" and does a lot of damage unfortunately without recourse.

There certainly is a lot of unusual antenna science!

One antenna manufacturer, in a QST article, claimed or implied the 
ionosphere does not respond in a reasonably linear way to system 
gain. Besides implying a grossly non-linear ionosphere, they 
"cooked down" performance of other antennas in a graph or 
comparison chart.

Another manufacturer claimed more gain than is possible with any 
combination of spacing and phasing using two elements. They 
"invented" a thing called "critical coupling K=1" to explain how they 
could have gain beyond theoretical limits of a perfectly excited and 
spaced lossless structure.

When asked to check out a 40 meter quad for a friend of mine, I 
asked about gain. The salesman/ designer told me when a dipole 
at the same height would be S-8 the quad was 20 over 9 in New 
Zealand. I thanked him and advised my friend to buy something 
else, because I couldn't get a straight answer.

The common excuse is there is something "special" going on that 
just can't be explained, and that models won't even show how well 
the antenna really works. That's a warning sign of pathological 
science at work!
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From W8JI@contesting.com  Mon Jul  9 15:57:30 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 10:57:30 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Tennadyne log feeder balance
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010707161425.00a0db60@mail>
Message-ID: <200107091400.f69E0wP28904@paris.akorn.net>


> Tom w8ji makes some interesting but uninformed comments about the
> Tennadyne feed  system.  The booms are in fact the feedpoint for the
> antenna and the collins balun belongs at the transition from the
> unbalanced coax line, to the balanced line necessary in any log periodic
> construction. The parallel booms substitute for the balanced line and make
> the antenna much more efficient. The potential of the lower (or upper)
> boom is the same as that of the feed line.  The booms are simply aluminum
> feedline, they are not radiators, just balanced line.  The idea that the
> balun at the feedpoint forms a dead short is simply untrue when you study
> the construction if that were true every antenna forms a short at some
> point because the shield grounds the antenna.  Whether it is a log, a
> vertical, or a yagi.

That is not correct Frank, the statement above illustrates a 
common misconception of what a balun does and where it belongs 
in the system. Baluns do not always belong at feedpoints, as a 
matter of fact there are many cases where an improperly installed  
balun can make things WORSE.  This is one of those cases. 

Since a balun does not always belong at the transition of balanced 
(in the case the dual booms) to unbalanced (the coax) where does 
it belong? 

It belongs at the point where the common mode current would 
begin to flow, and where the high choking impedance is required 
and effective. In this case, that point is the junction of the lower 
boom and the supporting mast.

Let's look at the case of a dual-boom log, with booms (one above 
the other) behaving as a balanced feedline. If the coax shield is 
directly connected to the lower boom, is at the potential of the 
lower boom. Even  though that cable is coax if it is routed back 
along the lower boom the potential difference between that cable 
and the boom is ZERO. There is nothing to introduce common 
mode current on the coax (which is the ONLY current than can 
make the feedline radiate) as long as it parallels the lower boom 
and is away from the side of that boom towards the upper boom.

In other words, if we had an imaginary voltmeter that could 
measure voltage referenced to an electrically neutral point in space 
around the antenna, the voltage on each boom at any distance 
from the feedpoint would be exactly equal and opposite in polarity 
at any distance from the feedpoint. With the coaxial cable taped 
along the lower boom, the shield of the coax would be well-coupled 
to the lower boom and would assume the potential of the boom.

While the coax does have common mode current, it is exactly in-
phase with the current in the lower boom and the shield is for all 
practical purposes part of the lower boom! All radiation would be 
cancelled by the upper boom, which hopefully carries equal and 
opposite currents. 
 
The balance problem, in this case, occurs at the exit point where 
the shield leaves the boom. This would be at the point where the 
cable moves from the lower boom to the vertical mast or tower 
used to support the antenna. 

If we measured the voltage with our voltmeter, we would see the 
lower boom is not at the same potential as the tower or mast, there 
is a voltage difference. (After all, if it was at the same potential 
there would be no need to insulate the lower boom from the tower!) 

The balun, and it should be a choke-balun, belongs right at the exit 
point of the coax from the boom. This is true no matter what other 
matching is done at the feedpoint end of the boom. 

We can NOT have the cable span the insulator at the boom to 
mast point without a suitable common-mode RF choke (balun), no 
matter how we might think the balun belongs at the feedpoint, 
without unbalancing the antenna and causing common-mode 
current to flow on the feedline shield!

Bridging the coax across the insulator from the lower boom to the 
tower or mast guarantees the antenna will be unbalanced, and the 
lower and upper booms will not have equal currents. It insures the 
coaxial feedline has unwanted common-mode current that is not 
cancelled. 

A choke balun belongs at the exit point of the cable from the lower 
boom. 
 
> By the way you do not have to strap the coax to the lower boom if you
> don't want to, it can drape down or use separators if you like, but they
> are unnecessary.  It is true that you have to be careful not to have any
> barrel connector touching the boom but a single layer of tape is
> sufficient insulation.  

Not true. A single layer of tape will NOT isolate a cable that 
parallels another current carrying conductor for several feet! If that 
were true, all of our yagis would quit working since they excite 
elements many feet away without electrical contact!!!!!

Mutual coupling always works, magnetic and electric fields force 
the conductors to the same potential. Tape does not stop the 
effect, no more than insulation in a transformer stops coupling. 

The feed system, as described, is improperly designed. It may 
work in some cases, but it sure gave a friend of mine fits! The 
amount of common mode current depends on tower height and 
what else is around the antenna. A well-engineered feed system is 
not critical for mounting structure height or cable lengths.

Just because you haven't observed problems doesn't mean you 
don't have feed system problems, or unbalance in element currents 
in the antenna.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From bat@grumman.com  Mon Jul  9 16:26:09 2001
From: bat@grumman.com (Pat Masterson)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 11:26:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] TA-33 coil turns
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F23C4wgKuu8FZg0000109c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1010709111955.14520B-100000@gateway.grumman.com>


 Bill - I have a copy of the TA33 manual right here. It's very brief (2 
or 3 pages) and doesn't mention the turns numbers at all.
 Also, the 15 M traps on the original antennas differ from the ones now 
being sold. I was told this was due to a frquency change in that band 
some years ago. And make sure the bakelite coil forms don't have any 
cracks. Might be best to replace them anyway if they are originals.  -pat


On Mon, 9 Jul 2001, bill thomas 
wrote: > 
> I'm rebuilding an old TA-33 for a new ham.  I need to know the coil turns 
> for the traps as I believe the traps are mixed up and all the markings have 
> faded away.  I used to have a TA-33 manual that showed the turns for each 
> coil in each trap, but I threw it out some time back.  Can anyone help who 
> may have the information?
> 
> Bill k1xt@hotmail.com
> 

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*  Pat Masterson  B38-01,  Northrop Grumman,     *  Ham:KE2LJ 
*  20 Orville Road,                              *  President Grumman Amateur
*  Bohemia,  NY                                  *  Radio Club  WA2LQO
*  email: bat@grumman.com   Fone: 631-218-6746   *  www.qsl.net/wa2lqo
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*


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From K7LXC@aol.com  Mon Jul  9 16:56:11 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 11:56:11 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tape and wxproofing
Message-ID: <62.10f1eb11.287b2e1b@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/9/01 3:32:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ww5l@gte.net 
writes:

> As an an added assurance for
>  weatherproofing something that absolutely, positively has to stay dry is 
to 
> use
>  Scotchkote (I think I spelled it correctly).  Its a gooey black or dark 
> green molasses
>  like substance in pint cans made by 3M that will seal out moisture as long 
> as the entire
>  length of tape is painted with it and then a slight overlap.  A ham friend 
> who also used
>  to work for a professional tower & mobile radio installer recommended it 
to 
> me years
>  ago.  He said he had used it on underwater cable installations with no 
> moisture seepage.

    That's what ScotchKote is designed to do - that is, it's for buried 
connections. I've been on dozens and dozens of commercial sites and the 
problem is that ScotchKote is degraded by UV; it dries out and flakes off. 
Some installers use clear acrylic spray paint which lasts longer. 

    These days I prefer to use Liquid Electrical Tape. It's UV resistant, 
also has a built-in brush, comes in different colors, and you can get it at 
Home Depot. And it just peels off when you need to remove it.

>  I just took down a tribander whose connections had been coated with it in 
> 1992 and they
>  were totally dry.  Had to replace the cable because of a lightning hit.  
> Scotchkote can
>  be a bit pricey around $15-$20 a pint can, but the stuff lasts forever, 
I'm 
> still using
>  the can I bought in 1992. Just make sure you tighten the lid, which also 
has 
> a small brush to paint the fitting.

    The trick to being able to open a can of ScotchKote after it's been used 
for awhile is to put some Vaseline jelly or some other sort of grease on the 
threads - then it'll open easily until it's empty. 

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From marc.wullaert3@pandora.be  Mon Jul  9 17:31:01 2001
From: marc.wullaert3@pandora.be (Marc Wullaert)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:31:01 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Who's on top?
References: <ALEBLDFHBLGBHPOFNFOPEEEIDJAA.tao@skypoint.com>
Message-ID: <002901c10894$8b9a1ec0$0db6e0d5@pandora.be>


Tod,
The 40m beam shoud be on top.I have a semilair installation and 40-2cd is
playing very well
at 80feet some were.Under is a kt34xa.Don't turn the booms 90 degrees.I
tried but got no differerence
because my kt34xa is a bad performer on 15m.
Also if you load up your tower for lowband, the biggest antenna shoud be on
top. Right  ?

Good luck with the combo !!
marc on4ma


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Olson <tao@skypoint.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 7:59 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Who's on top?



I suspect that I could get this answer from a diligent search of the TT
archives, but it is much more fun to get current thinking and experience.

I am planning to install a 40 meter beam (40-2CD) on the same tower and mast
as my triband beam (TH7). Should I place the 40 meter beam over the triband
beam or the other way around. Assume that there will be at least 8 feet of
separation between the two antennas and that the lowest antenna will be no
higher than 72 feet above ground. The antennas will be on a telescoping
tower so the height above ground is another variable (between 32 feet and 72
feet for the lowest antenna).

I have had a suggestion that I turn the booms so that they are 90 degrees to
each other. I can see that will introduce some interesting wind forces on
the tower and the rotator. Anyone have an opinion (or even some experience)
with this concept?

Tod, KØTO


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From hasben@ix.netcom.com  Mon Jul  9 17:35:26 2001
From: hasben@ix.netcom.com (Richard Hassell-Bennett)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 11:35:26 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tape and wxproofing
References: <d5.8d25ee8.287ab986@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002001c10895$29c4d7c0$a414323f@computer>


Fully agree with Steve. "the right tape and right technique"

That is why 3m makes #70 tape.

Use #70 and then cover it with #88 and it will last a life time.

73 de Rich K0XG



>
> > I have always heard that you SHOULD stretch electrical tape for
> >  all but the last turn or two.  I use Scotch Tartan which I get for
> >  50 cents a roll.  I change things around enough that I don't want to
> >  pay $4 a roll for the Cadillac tape.
> >
>     The trick to weatherproofing connectors is a function of the right
tape
> and the right technique. The right tape in my book is either Scotch 33+ or
88.
>
>     You DO stretch the tape as you're applying it. 33+ and 88 both conform
> excellently and the stretching helps do this.


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From n1lo@hotmail.com  Mon Jul  9 17:39:36 2001
From: n1lo@hotmail.com (Mark .)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 12:39:36 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Take down Rohn 25G tower with crane?
Message-ID: <F242ogkJXrRjbDt3Hvo000170fb@hotmail.com>


Hello all,
Thank you for the replies so far, both on and off list. Scott knows the 
person who owns the crane, so it can be had for fuel costs, I suspect.

I like the temporary guying ideas, and I feel that this would work to make 
the tower safe to climb for rigging a crane lift or conventional 
dismantling.

We are leaning toward a crane lift and laydown, since there will be little 
cost for the crane and it will be safer. The base is a pier pin with a 
single bolt. Since the joint bolts may have been overtightened during 
installation, I expect difficulty in separating the tower sections. I do 
have a tower jack.
If we take the tower down with a crane, the work of removing the rusty bolts 
and separating the joints can be distributed among a larger ground crew than 
having one or two climbers perform this work up the tower.

The best suggestion I heard for removing the rusty bolts is to carefully cut 
off the heads with an abrasive disc and tap the bolts out with a punch.

Any more ideas are welcomed.

thanks!

--...MARK_N1LO...--


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From k1xt@hotmail.com  Mon Jul  9 17:55:42 2001
From: k1xt@hotmail.com (bill thomas)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 11:55:42 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] TA-33 coil turns,Thanks
Message-ID: <LAW2-F1311qdiixjnzi0000debf@hotmail.com>


Thanks to everyone for the quick responses to my query.  I now have all the 
information I need.   73   Bill   k1xt
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From F6BEE@aol.com  Mon Jul  9 18:57:03 2001
From: F6BEE@aol.com (F6BEE@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 13:57:03 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] M2 4030M3L beam
Message-ID: <104.5c9a87e.287b4a6f@aol.com>


Has any TTer heard about or used a M2 4030M3L antenna ?

It is a 3 element 40 and 30 m dualbander yagi to be marketed soon by M2
and using a different linear loading concept.

Apparently there are already a couple in use and I wish to know the user's
overall impressions.

73 de Jacques, F6BEE
f6bee@aol.com

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From w7ti@dslextreme.com  Mon Jul  9 19:18:24 2001
From: w7ti@dslextreme.com (Bill Turner)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 11:18:24 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Take down Rohn 25G tower with crane?
In-Reply-To: <F242ogkJXrRjbDt3Hvo000170fb@hotmail.com>
References: <F242ogkJXrRjbDt3Hvo000170fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ebsjkt0glqbstq3hu8k3qv8hn8sjk8bu5f@4ax.com>


On Mon, 09 Jul 2001 12:39:36 -0400, Mark . wrote:

>The best suggestion I heard for removing the rusty bolts is to carefully cut 
>off the heads with an abrasive disc and tap the bolts out with a punch.

_________________________________________________________

Before you go to all that trouble, try penetrating oil first.
Soak the bolt from both sides and give it several hours or even a
day.  I've seen amazingly rusted bolts come loose that way.

Be sure you use oil made especially for freeing rusted nuts and
bolts.

73, Bill W7TI

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From k1ttt@berkshire.net  Mon Jul  9 18:56:15 2001
From: k1ttt@berkshire.net (David Robbins)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 18:56:15 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Take down Rohn 25G tower with crane?
References: <F242ogkJXrRjbDt3Hvo000170fb@hotmail.com> <ebsjkt0glqbstq3hu8k3qv8hn8sjk8bu5f@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3B49F03F.120B1D1C@berkshire.net>


before you go to all that trouble just take a couple decent size wrenches.  if
the bolts don't loosen easily just twist the heads off and forget them.  much
faster and less effort than trying to save them and less chance of damage to the
tower than cutting.  i wouldn't reuse bolts that had been up that long anyway so
no use babying them.

Bill Turner wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 09 Jul 2001 12:39:36 -0400, Mark . wrote:
> 
> >The best suggestion I heard for removing the rusty bolts is to carefully cut
> >off the heads with an abrasive disc and tap the bolts out with a punch.
> 
> Before you go to all that trouble, try penetrating oil first.
> Soak the bolt from both sides and give it several hours or even a
> day.  I've seen amazingly rusted bolts come loose that way.
> 

-- 
David Robbins K1TTT
e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
web: http://www.k1ttt.net
AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net

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From b_bradfield@yahoo.com  Mon Jul  9 19:57:18 2001
From: b_bradfield@yahoo.com (Brad Bradfield)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 11:57:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] Take down Rohn 25G tower with crane?
In-Reply-To: <ebsjkt0glqbstq3hu8k3qv8hn8sjk8bu5f@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20010709185718.67484.qmail@web10002.mail.yahoo.com>


 
"Liquid Wrench", available at most any hardware store or home builder's
center, is one brand that I've used with good success for years.  As
Bill said, it sometimes takes more than one application and a bit of
soak time to fully work.

73,

Brad, W5CGH

==============================

> _________________________________________________________
> 
> Before you go to all that trouble, try penetrating oil first.
> Soak the bolt from both sides and give it several hours or even a
> day.  I've seen amazingly rusted bolts come loose that way.
> 
> Be sure you use oil made especially for freeing rusted nuts and
> bolts.
> 
> 73, Bill W7TI
> 


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From n4kg@juno.com  Mon Jul  9 21:01:14 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 14:01:14 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Take down Rohn 25G tower with crane?
Message-ID: <20010709.140334.-154011.0.N4KG@juno.com>


A couple of good wrenches with long handles (9-12 inches)
should be sufficient to remove or break the rusted bolts.

Tom  N4KG


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From n4kg@juno.com  Mon Jul  9 21:02:07 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 14:02:07 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: [Dx] question about G5RV antennas
Message-ID: <20010709.140334.-154011.1.N4KG@juno.com>


The pattern and gain will be different on every band.
Where the antenna acts as a long wire, maximum gain
will be in the lobes closest to the wire, typically 25 to 35
degrees each side of the wire depending on length and frequency.

Here is an empirical analysis I wrote on the subject in 1997.
There might be 2 dB gain at the center of the peak lobe
on the high bands.  Less on the lower bands.  Some 
descriptions imply vertical radiation from the 2 wire
transmission line.  Don't believe it.

Tom  N4KG

The G5RV is a 100 foot center fed wire antenna.  
Think of it as a long wire for each band and look up the patterns 
for each length in the ARRL  Antenna Book or other source.

80M     .35 WL  "short" dipole  figure 8 pattern broadside to wire

40M     .70 WL   "long" dipole   figure 8 pattern broadside to wire

30M     2X .5 WL  Two Half waves in phase - figure 8 pattern 50 degrees
wide
				     broadside to wire
20M      3/2 WL current fed LW - 6 lobes - 4main lobes approx 35* to wire
				2 minor lobes broadside to wire
17M      2X  1 WL voltage fed LW's - 4 lobes approx 40* to wire

15M      2X  1.1 WL voltage fed LW's - 4 major lobes, possible minor
	(this is my "intuitive analysis...check w/modeling program)
12M      5/2 WL current fed LW - 10 lobes - 4 main lobes approx 30* from
wire

10M      2X 3/2 WL  voltage fed LW - 6 lobes - 4 main lobes approx 35* to
wire
				       2 minor lobes broadside to wire

de  Tom  N4KG  11 / 26 / 97

On Mon, 9 Jul 2001  larry fields <n6hpx_du3@yahoo.com> writes:
>   Last march,while I was operating from Manila,as DU1,
> I was using 2 G5RV's,and they worked pretty good..
>   My question is what<if any> is the DB gain on these
> antennas,I have never seen any recent reviews on
> em..the antennas are the 100 foot and 50 foot
> models,and the 100 ft. was operated at 51 feet above
> the ground..
>    Thanks,Larry,n6hpx/du1
> 
> p.s. I am thinking of using a M2loop for 6 meters,next
> time I return there in January..whats a opinion on this..
> 

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From W8JI@contesting.com  Mon Jul  9 20:57:32 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 15:57:32 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: [Dx] question about G5RV antennas
In-Reply-To: <20010709.140334.-154011.1.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <200107091900.f69J0uP07827@paris.akorn.net>


I think it might be useful to point out that multi-lobe gain is not "free 
gain".

Any gain from splitting an antenna's pattern into many lobes with 
many nulls results in an average gain, or useful gain, that is much 
less than the gain predicted at lobe centers.

The more nulls and lobes the antenna has, the less useful the gain 
is no matter how carefully you position an antenna that can not be 
rotated when in use. What happens is the fellow you are trying to 
work can just as often be in a null as in a peak of the pattern, no 
matter what his location, when the lobe is too narrow.

Eznec for windows allows you to determine average gain, which is  
more useful for antennas like dipoles used at harmonics.

Gain is not always a good thing, unless you can move the antenna, 
because signals do not always come from the same directions 
even when you are working the same areas of the world!!

For example...last night, CX1SI was coming from ESE even though 
by great circle heading he is about due south of me.  
 
> The pattern and gain will be different on every band.
> Where the antenna acts as a long wire, maximum gain
> will be in the lobes closest to the wire, typically 25 to 35
> degrees each side of the wire depending on length and frequency.
> 
> Here is an empirical analysis I wrote on the subject in 1997.
> There might be 2 dB gain at the center of the peak lobe
> on the high bands.  Less on the lower bands. 
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From smillick@cillnet.com  Mon Jul  9 22:53:16 2001
From: smillick@cillnet.com (Scott Millick)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 16:53:16 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] ANyone Interested
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010709165316.00a56260@cillnet.com>


I have some antenna work to be done. Nothing major and need a climber. Ones
I have used are getting too old or loosing interested. Willing to pay
reasonable price. I am located about 50 miles south of SPringfield, Il
Thanks
Scott Millick
K9SM
907 Big Four
Hillsboro, Il  62049
217 532-3837

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From djl@andlev.com  Tue Jul 10 00:02:56 2001
From: djl@andlev.com (Dan Levin)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 16:02:56 -0700 (PST)
Subject: [TowerTalk] How to raise mast?
Message-ID: <200107092302.TAA02345@arkroyal.cnchost.com>


Ok, next issue in my tower project is raising the 
mast and installing the antennas (I plan to install 
the tower, a 72' Trylon, with a crane).  For those 
who are curious, my cable with stand-off's idea for a 
safety system has been replaced with a more 
traditional cable + trolley system, since the cable 
is the same price and the trolley turns out not to be 
too expensive.

But back to the question at hand.  Suppose that you 
had a 72' tower, and you wanted to install a 24' 
chrome-moly mast (~18 feet sticking out) and three 
antennas.  How would you do it?

Seems to me that there are three obvious approaches:

1) Use the crane to do it all.  Upsides: fast.  
Downsides: the antennas have to be ready when the 
tower goes up, someone has to ride the crane to bolt 
on the antennas, the crane has to be taller (~90' 
reach instead of ~50' reach since it now has to reach 
to top of the mast, not just above the center of 
gravity of the tower), expensive (additional crane 
time, bigger crane), not reproducible for maintence.

2) Pre-install the mast in the tower, raise the whole 
thing with the crane, then install steps on the mast 
and climb the mast to install the antennas using a 
rope and pulley to raise them.  Upsides: cheaper, 
reproducible for maintenence, antennas go on 
whenever.  Downsides: someone has to climb the mast 
and work while perched on it (that someone would be 
me :-).

3) Use two thrust bearings or similar, install the 
mast in the tower with ~3' sticking out pre-raising 
of the tower.  Once the tower is up, climb the tower, 
install the top antenna, winch the mast up a few 
feet, install the next antenna, winch the mast up a 
few feet, install the next antenna, etc.  Upsides: 
All of those of #2 above, plus no climbing of the 
spindly 2" mast.  Downsides: Mechanical issues of 
keeping the mast vertical while installing the 
antennas (before it is seated in the rotor at the 
end).

Thoughts - suggestions?

Thanks!

              ***dan, K6IF

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jul 10 01:16:31 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:16:31 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Take down Rohn 25G tower with crane?
Message-ID: <b0.170fe92b.287ba35f@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/9/01 12:25:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, n4kg@juno.com 
writes:

> A couple of good wrenches with long handles (9-12 inches)
>  should be sufficient to remove or break the rusted bolts.

    I agree - break 'em off and throw 'em away. New Rohn JBK's (joint bolt 
kits) are cheap.

    I think there is a commercial standard that says not to re-use tower 
bolts.

Cheers,   Steve   K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From k2av@contesting.com  Tue Jul 10 02:08:18 2001
From: k2av@contesting.com (Guy Olinger, K2AV)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 21:08:18 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Log Periodic Antenna recommendation?
References: <200107091400.f69E0uP28901@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <005601c108dc$d5d1ac40$0300a8c0@cruncher>


Second Tom's post, but methinks though gentlemanly, Tom's use of
"pathological" is too kind. Snake oil has been around for a long time,
AND has those who swear by it.

Snake oil salesmen just don't care. They know it's junk. They just want
your buck.

I've not seen anything to indicate ham radio is genetically immune to
snake oil. There's them that make good antennas and there's them that
make junk. All of them are shiny when they're new, and it's easy to make
a dummy load that looks like an antenna and has a pattern and a low SWR.

Caveat Emptor.  And some new "products" DESERVE to be killed, crippled,
whatever.

-----------------

73, Guy
k2av@contesting.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Rauch" <w8ji@akorn.net>
To: <Towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Log Periodic Antenna recommendation?


>
> > M2, Raibeam, Antenna Mart and many others deserve your business who
sell
> > great products and I'd support them.  New and effective designs are
bad
> > mouthed for long periods of time until competent evaluators give it
a
> > clean bill of health.  Large sums of money and time can be invested
in a
> > new product and killed or sales crippled by the "Army of the
Performance
> > Misinformed" and does a lot of damage unfortunately without
recourse.
>
> There certainly is a lot of unusual antenna science!
>
            ....

> The common excuse is there is something "special" going on that
> just can't be explained, and that models won't even show how well
> the antenna really works. That's a warning sign of pathological
> science at work!
> 73, Tom W8JI






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From k9zm@frontiernet.net  Tue Jul 10 01:46:19 2001
From: k9zm@frontiernet.net (Greg Gobleman)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:46:19 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Take down Rohn 25G tower with crane?
References: <20010709185718.67484.qmail@web10002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <008c01c108df$115fba20$73ab82d1@k9zm>


If you only want to spray it once, use PB Blaster.  No other
penetrating oil works as well!  I get mine at NAPA, some Wal
Marts carry it as well.  I have also heard good things about
Marvel Mystery Oil in the spray can.  But I have no experience
with it.  I have cussed lots of things sprayed with Liquid Wrench
& WD 40.

Greg K9ZM


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From k3gt@pgh.net  Tue Jul 10 02:56:36 2001
From: k3gt@pgh.net (Bob Thacker)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 21:56:36 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Take down Rohn 25G tower with crane?
References: <20010709185718.67484.qmail@web10002.mail.yahoo.com> <008c01c108df$115fba20$73ab82d1@k9zm>
Message-ID: <005f01c108e3$8eeed620$85821a3f@2lz3801>


I'll second the endorsement of PB Blaster...great stuff! However, I would
and have done as the rest have, break 'em of and get new.

Bob, K3GT


----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Gobleman" <k9zm@frontiernet.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Take down Rohn 25G tower with crane?


>
> If you only want to spray it once, use PB Blaster.  No other
> penetrating oil works as well!  I get mine at NAPA, some Wal
> Marts carry it as well.  I have also heard good things about
> Marvel Mystery Oil in the spray can.  But I have no experience
> with it.  I have cussed lots of things sprayed with Liquid Wrench
> & WD 40.
>
> Greg K9ZM
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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>
>


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From n4kg@juno.com  Tue Jul 10 05:10:38 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 22:10:38 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: [Dx] Commericial directional antennas
Message-ID: <20010709.222445.-235915.4.N4KG@juno.com>


For a small but effective HF beam antenna, 
I would go with the Force 12 C3S or C3SS
if space is really tight, or a 2L Quad.

The C3S is an simple but elegant 2L 3 Band design
with 3 full size open sleeve Driven Elements and 3
appropriately spaced full size reflectors.  The C3SS
uses linear loading on the 20M elements for reduced
size.

Tom N4KG
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From n4kg@juno.com  Tue Jul 10 05:24:20 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 22:24:20 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: [Dx] question about G5RV antennas
Message-ID: <20010709.222445.-235915.8.N4KG@juno.com>


On Tue, 10 Jul 2001  "Harry A. Hodges" <w6yoo@utm.net> writes:
> Hi All,
> 
> I just finished reading through my antenna file articles about the 
> G5RV
> antenna, including one by the man himself. In none of them could I 
> find any
> claim of gain over a standard dipole. This seems logical in that the 
> G5RV
> is in essence a "dipole", albeit a multi-band one. 

	See my previous note on the subject.
	The G5RV acts as a simple dipole on 80 and 40M only.
	On the higher frequencies, it acts as various types of
	LONG WIRES which have multiple lobes and some
	slight gain in the major lobes, which is frequency
	and length dependent.  

	I recommend reading about Long Wire antennas 
	in the OLD (smaller) ARRL Antenna Books (1970's).   
	They ARE good and useful antennas if you understand 
	their patterns and combine enough fixed wire antennas 
	for complete coverage.

	FWIW, I have worked over 320 countries on each
	of the WARC bands using 80 and 20M dipoles fed
	with ladder line and Johnson Matchboxes.
	de  Tom  N4KG

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From n4kg@juno.com  Tue Jul 10 05:19:53 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 22:19:53 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] ANyone Interested
Message-ID: <20010709.222445.-235915.7.N4KG@juno.com>


Sad sign of the times.  We're all getting older
and no replacements coming into the hobby
to carry on...  Wish I could find some willing
climbers too :-(     de Tom N4KG

On Mon, 09 Jul 2001 smillick@cillnet.com (Scott Millick) writes:
> 
> I have some antenna work to be done. Nothing major and need a 
> climber. Ones
> I have used are getting too old or loosing interested. Willing to 
> pay
> reasonable price. I am located about 50 miles south of SPringfield, 
> Il
> Thanks
> Scott Millick
> K9SM
> 907 Big Four
> Hillsboro, Il  62049
> 217 532-3837
>

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From n1lo@hotmail.com  Tue Jul 10 13:16:18 2001
From: n1lo@hotmail.com (Mark .)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:16:18 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Reusing old tower joint bolts
Message-ID: <F663sJWGYdRGy9tCx1D0001a68d@hotmail.com>


Thanks from Scott and I for all the good discussion on reclaiming the old 
tower.

We are definitely not planning to re-use the bolts since they have been up 
and rusting for so long. Those crappy Rohn bolts on my new tower started 
rusting in less than a year!
I will recomment using Stan's (W7NI) mechanically galvanized tower joint 
bolts.

The rust on the tower braces is only minor surface rust, therefore I feel 
the integrity of the tower is fine.
However, the bolts are more extensively rusted. Although I believe they are 
strong enough for a safe dissassembly, I consider them completely unsuitable 
for re-use.

Good comments folks - keep 'em coming!

--...MARK_N1LO...--

PS: I made this into a side thread for specific availability of the search 
engine in the archives.
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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jul 10 15:36:28 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:36:28 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] How to raise mast?
Message-ID: <61.103eb1fc.287c6cec@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/9/01 4:04:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, djl@andlev.com 
writes:

> But back to the question at hand.  Suppose that you 
>  had a 72' tower, and you wanted to install a 24' 
>  chrome-moly mast (~18 feet sticking out) and three 
>  antennas.  How would you do it?
>  
>  Seems to me that there are three obvious approaches:
>  
>  1) Use the crane to do it all.  Upsides: fast.  

    Also safe.

>  Downsides: the antennas have to be ready when the 
>  tower goes up, 

    Well then, that's your goal - have *everything* ready when the crane 
arrives. 

>  someone has to ride the crane to bolt on the antennas, 

    What I do is to have the crane guy bring a man-basket. I use my 6' nylon 
slings to sling the boom and suspend the antenna from the hook at my waist 
level. When you arrive at the top of the mast, then you bolt everything in 
place. You only need the man-basket for the top antenna since everything else 
can be done from the top of the tower. 

>  the crane has to be taller (~90' 
>  reach instead of ~50' reach since it now has to reach 
>  to top of the mast, not just above the center of 
>  gravity of the tower), 

    Even "little" crane/boomtrucks commonly have 90' of boom - be sure to 
tell your crane guy how much you need.

    It only has to clear the top of the tower (72') and a little more than 
1/2 the mast length (approximately 13') so 90' or so of boom is about right. 

>  expensive (additional crane  time, bigger crane), not reproducible for 
maintence.

    That's another topic. If you need to get at the top antenna you can 
either climb the mast with temporary steps or lower the mast.
>  
>  2) Pre-install the mast in the tower, raise the whole thing with the 
crane, 
>  then install steps on the mast 
>  and climb the mast to install the antennas using a 
>  rope and pulley to raise them.  Upsides: cheaper, 
>  reproducible for maintenence, antennas go on 
>  whenever.  

    Why waste your skyhook by not installing the antennas whilst it's there? 
Simple, safe, quick and you're done. 

>  Downsides: someone has to climb the mast 
>  and work while perched on it (that someone would be me :-).
>  
    The number of people who can actually perform this manuever is *really 
small*. If you haven't done it before, my guess is that you'll prefer not to 
climb the mast. 

>  3) Use two thrust bearings or similar, install the 
>  mast in the tower with ~3' sticking out pre-raising 
>  of the tower.  Once the tower is up, climb the tower, 
>  install the top antenna, winch the mast up a few 
>  feet, install the next antenna, winch the mast up a 
>  few feet, install the next antenna, etc.  Upsides: 
>  All of those of #2 above, plus no climbing of the 
>  spindly 2" mast.  Downsides: Mechanical issues of 
>  keeping the mast vertical while installing the 
>  antennas (before it is seated in the rotor at the 
>  end).

    This is a tedious job and will probably take 10 times longer than using 
the crane (30 minutes vs. 5 hours). Go with the skyhook and he'll be out of 
there in a couple of hours and you'll be done. 

Cheers,    Steve     K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From pizzabob@charter.net  Tue Jul 10 15:54:56 2001
From: pizzabob@charter.net (Bob Lovell)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:54:56 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] How to raise mast?
Message-ID: <000f01c10950$49ed32c0$c0a99e18@charter.net>


K7LXC, in response to djl, wrote, in part:

"If you need to get at the top antenna you can either climb the mast with
temporary steps or lower the mast."

I'm curious, what is the nature of these temporary steps; i.e., how are they
made?  Bolts through holes in your mast, perhaps?

TIA & 73,

Bob  KK4TD



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From k3gt@pgh.net  Tue Jul 10 21:47:19 2001
From: k3gt@pgh.net (Bob Thacker)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:47:19 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] How to raise mast?
References: <000f01c10950$49ed32c0$c0a99e18@charter.net>
Message-ID: <002301c10981$850df480$df11193f@2lz3801>


I have 2" by 10" angle iron U bolted with a muffler style clamp every 30" or
so and are permanently left there. A strip of sticky non-slide step material
is applied to each one. I have a Champion short 1' lanyard to hold you tight
to the mast accompanied by the regular harness and 3' lanyard. Get lots of
nerve and go climb. Done it many times. On one occasion that I climbed it,
Robin Cole, former Pittsburgh Steelers middle linebacker came over and
holler up to me that I had more courage than him on the football field! I
think not, but you do have to have b**** to do it.

73,

Bob, K3GT

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Lovell" <pizzabob@charter.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 10:54 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] How to raise mast?


>
> K7LXC, in response to djl, wrote, in part:
>
> "If you need to get at the top antenna you can either climb the mast with
> temporary steps or lower the mast."
>
> I'm curious, what is the nature of these temporary steps; i.e., how are
they
> made?  Bolts through holes in your mast, perhaps?
>
> TIA & 73,
>
> Bob  KK4TD
>
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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>
>


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From k6sdw@arrl.net  Tue Jul 10 19:37:15 2001
From: k6sdw@arrl.net (Eddy Avila)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:37:15 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] RFI in Porch Lights
Message-ID: <F100fO06w1HFhrMTbVt0001ab1c@hotmail.com>


Any quick and easy suggestions to cure RF getting into my el cheapo
motion/heat-sensing porch lights? I'm thinking of trying small caps across 
the input circuit?

Thanks and 73......./k6sdw

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From w0hh@msn.com  Tue Jul 10 21:00:11 2001
From: w0hh@msn.com (Tom Champlin)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:00:11 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] How to raise mast?
References: <000f01c10950$49ed32c0$c0a99e18@charter.net>
Message-ID: <000401c1097a$ef694c00$d7301a3f@hppav>


Bob,

I cut several pieces of Unistrut, available at Lowe's, etc. I then drilled
holes in them  and used muffler clamps to bolt them to the upper mast. I
then could  easily climb above the X9 up to where I wanted to place the boom
truss clamp.
Of course, I wear a safety belt and lanyard.
As with any tower work, there is a certain element of danger with this. Be
careful.

73, Tom W0HH


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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jul 10 17:59:19 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:59:19 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] How to raise mast?
Message-ID: <46.175aae00.287c8e67@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/10/01 7:54:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
pizzabob@charter.net writes:

> "If you need to get at the top antenna you can either climb the mast with
>  temporary steps or lower the mast."
>  
>  I'm curious, what is the nature of these temporary steps; i.e., how are 
they
>  made?  Bolts through holes in your mast, perhaps?

    Nope - what a hassle that would be; to say nothing of the stress riser of 
each hole. They are 12-18 inch pieces of angle iron or aluminum. Drill them 
for 2" U-bolts and attach them temporarily to the mast with a U-bolt and 
saddle. Put them about a foot apart and head on up. (I also have mine drilled 
for 3-inch masts/U-bolts.)

    A 2-inch mast is a little wobbly so I only like to climb them on a *real* 
still day. Three-inchers OTOH don't move at all. 

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From k6xt@arrl.net  Tue Jul 10 17:32:51 2001
From: k6xt@arrl.net (Art Charette)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:32:51 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] How to raise mast?
In-Reply-To: <000f01c10950$49ed32c0$c0a99e18@charter.net>
Message-ID: <KLEKIGONPAGNJGIJAOGCCEEDCBAA.k6xt@arrl.net>


Bob

Mine are aluminum angle, 1.5x1.5 inches at least so your foot has a good
purchase. In the center on one face you drill holes for a muffler clamp that
will fit your mast. You climb on the other face. Over many years of
climbing, one clamp has been more than enough (2" or larger mast).

Regards
Art K6XT
k6xt@arrl.net
http://www.topband.net/k6xt/k6xt.html

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Bob Lovell
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 7:55 AM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] How to raise mast?



K7LXC, in response to djl, wrote, in part:

"If you need to get at the top antenna you can either climb the mast with
temporary steps or lower the mast."

I'm curious, what is the nature of these temporary steps; i.e., how are they
made?  Bolts through holes in your mast, perhaps?

TIA & 73,

Bob  KK4TD



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From FireBrick" <w9ol@billnjudy.com  Wed Jul 11 00:40:14 2001
From: FireBrick" <w9ol@billnjudy.com (FireBrick)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:40:14 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] raising a mast up out of a tower.
Message-ID: <005101c10999$ae9485e0$0201a8c0@billnjudy>


I have a older Wilson rotatable. I put a 24 foot 2" chrome moly mast in
there.
The mast can slide down almost to the end of the mast.

I developed a way to lift the tower vertical without that long mast sticking
out and raise the mast after the Wilson is vertical.
Simple old bumper jack.
I built a plate that fits around the collar of the top section and the
vertical part of a bumper jack fits into. Then put a 4X4 steel angles with a
hole the shape of the jack riser.
Crank up the jack, tighten the mast collar bolts, lower the jack and angle
and repeat.

I'm sure this approach could be adapted to other towers that have a non
tapering top section.


------------------------------------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
------------------------------------------------------------

Bill H. in Chicagoland
w9ol@billnjudy.com



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From k3gt@pgh.net  Wed Jul 11 02:13:28 2001
From: k3gt@pgh.net (Bob Thacker)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:13:28 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] How to raise mast?
References: <200107102330.TAA09107@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <001901c109a6$b2ca2d60$be43193f@2lz3801>


Hi Barry,

Muffler clamps are plain steel, degreased with denatured alcohol and coated
with Rust-O-Leum cold zinc galvanizing compound. Steps are 3/16" thick 2" x
2" angle iron. My steps are a bit too narrow, think they are 8 or 10" wide
(more that I think about it, it's probably 8", that's 3" on each side of the
mast, pretty small). K7LXC suggests 12" for a little wider step. I wouldn't
make the steps too wide though, they may twist. If I were to redo it, steps
would be 12" with a stainless steel clamp. I bought some ss clamps from Alan
Harbaugh (do a search, sells SB-220 upgrade parts too)that would probably
work fine. I used those clamps on my 90 lb TH11 threaded to accept a ss
eyebolt which were permanently left on the antenna to tram it up and down.

I have used my plain 3' lanyard wrapped around the mast many times, but that
is just plain dangerous. Buy K7LXC's (Champion Radio) 1' lanyard. I bought
2, 1 for me and 1 for by good friend who is usually up on top. In fact, I
bought him a lot of gear just to say thanks for his hard work.

Let us know how this all turns out.

73,

Bob, K3GT





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From lclarks@nc.rr.com  Wed Jul 11 02:26:13 2001
From: lclarks@nc.rr.com (Larry Stowell)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:26:13 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] tower mount
Message-ID: <006e01c109a8$7908f370$4d131918@larrywa2sry>


Does anybody in the Raleigh/Durham area know of a person with a bobcat and a
12" auger with an extension. I need a hole 12" dia 6ft deep for my tower
mounting post.

73's

Larry WA2SRY




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From franknorton@home.com  Wed Jul 11 06:11:35 2001
From: franknorton@home.com (Frank Norton)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 01:11:35 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk]
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010711010008.009f8880@mail>


Portions from a personal email from Tom, n4kg,

(small portions of prior posts removed to save bandwidth)

On Mon, 28 May 2001 19:39:15 -0400 Frank Norton <franknorton@home.com>
writes:
 > Hello everyone,
 >
 > I have followed with great interest the discussion about using a Yaesu
 > G1000. I am unclear as to the use of foot-pounds in
 > expressing the K factor Yaesu has calculated for safe use of it's
 > rotors. It is confusing for those who cannot convert easily, and each
 > added step adds a factor of uncertainty.
 >
 > According to the Yaesu rotor manual "K" is calculated by the 
multiplication of the
 > turning radius of the antenna (in meters) by the weight of the antenna (in
 > Kg), and the weight of the mast (in Kg)

 >In addition to this calculation one must ensure the square meters of wind
 > surface area do not exceed 2.2 m2. My brother, who is a mechanicalengineer
 >ran several calculations on the G1000 and believes it easily capable........

NOTE:  1st para refers to post about 6-8 wks ago  but is self explanatory 
in the discussion that follows.


I messed up that post about my confusion about calculating "K" tremendously 
by not putting in the source of my confusion--> The Yaesu web site, and the 
Texas Tower web site both leave out the mast in the calculation of the "K" 
factor , made sense to me. So I purchased my G1000DXA and waited for the 
UPS truck to bring my shiny new rotator, which I purchased with this new 
"scientific system" to assure my "safety freak" side all factors are 
covered. But when I open the box and read the manual there it is--> A half 
page explanation (with diagrams) that suddenly includes the weight of the 
mast in calculating the "K" factor. I didn't understand why--so I started 
making phone calls. I called Texas Towers and they didn't know for sure 
which was correct, next I tried Vertex and had no luck getting anyone but 
marketing who him-hawed around really not knowing what to do.

My brother is a C.P.E. but not a ham, he felt that in engineering a 
structure he would not consider the mast, but since he did not have access 
to the engineering information on the rotor he could not say whether the 
vertical loading should be included in the "K" factor or not. Yaesu's own 
literature contradicted itself. I still have not received a reply to my 
letter from Vertex/Yaesu.

I would like to feel completely comfortable with my decision to leave the 
mast out of the calculation, but if something happens and the rotator 
clamshell fails, and the antennas fall damaging part of my home......what 
will the insurance company determine? God forbid what if someone were hurt, 
or killed! The safety freak inside me has not been sleeping well waiting 
for an answer from Vertex/Yaesu (now 6 weeks overdue).

Thanks for your email at least I know there is someone else who feels that 
the concentric force of the mast is insignificant compared to the eccentric 
torque of the antennae when calculating "K".

At 10:31 AM 7/10/2001 -0600, N4KGwrote:
Hi Frank,

I have never understood why weight of the mast is a factor since
it has such a small radius. Also, the K factor is not a "real"
moment but a ficticous number that "sort of" indicates rotor
capability. The actual moments depend on WHERE the weight
is distributed. Empirical evidence is still the best criteria for
rotor selection, unfortunately.

Tom N4KG

  73 de Frank, kb8xu


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From Roger Borowski" <K9RB@arrl.net  Wed Jul 11 12:45:58 2001
From: Roger Borowski" <K9RB@arrl.net (Roger Borowski)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:45:58 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk]
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010711010008.009f8880@mail>
Message-ID: <025201c109ff$0d3e9440$0200a8c0@rbmain>


If your calculations are so close to the limitations of the G1000DXA without the
inclusion of the mast, and the mast weight pushes any safety margin over the
limitations for this rotor, you should have used a larger rotator, especially if
you
are uncomfortable now! Its never good practice to "engineer" mechanical things
to near their absolute limits. When doing so, short life and failures are
inevitable!
-=Rog-K9RB=-

----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Norton <franknorton@home.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 1:11 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk]


>
> Portions from a personal email from Tom, n4kg,
>
> (small portions of prior posts removed to save bandwidth)
>
> On Mon, 28 May 2001 19:39:15 -0400 Frank Norton <franknorton@home.com>
> writes:
>  > Hello everyone,
>  >
>  > I have followed with great interest the discussion about using a Yaesu
>  > G1000. I am unclear as to the use of foot-pounds in
>  > expressing the K factor Yaesu has calculated for safe use of it's
>  > rotors. It is confusing for those who cannot convert easily, and each
>  > added step adds a factor of uncertainty.
>  >
>  > According to the Yaesu rotor manual "K" is calculated by the
> multiplication of the
>  > turning radius of the antenna (in meters) by the weight of the antenna (in
>  > Kg), and the weight of the mast (in Kg)
>
>  >In addition to this calculation one must ensure the square meters of wind
>  > surface area do not exceed 2.2 m2. My brother, who is a mechanicalengineer
>  >ran several calculations on the G1000 and believes it easily capable........
>
> NOTE:  1st para refers to post about 6-8 wks ago  but is self explanatory
> in the discussion that follows.
>
>
> I messed up that post about my confusion about calculating "K" tremendously
> by not putting in the source of my confusion--> The Yaesu web site, and the
> Texas Tower web site both leave out the mast in the calculation of the "K"
> factor , made sense to me. So I purchased my G1000DXA and waited for the
> UPS truck to bring my shiny new rotator, which I purchased with this new
> "scientific system" to assure my "safety freak" side all factors are
> covered. But when I open the box and read the manual there it is--> A half
> page explanation (with diagrams) that suddenly includes the weight of the
> mast in calculating the "K" factor. I didn't understand why--so I started
> making phone calls. I called Texas Towers and they didn't know for sure
> which was correct, next I tried Vertex and had no luck getting anyone but
> marketing who him-hawed around really not knowing what to do.
>
> My brother is a C.P.E. but not a ham, he felt that in engineering a
> structure he would not consider the mast, but since he did not have access
> to the engineering information on the rotor he could not say whether the
> vertical loading should be included in the "K" factor or not. Yaesu's own
> literature contradicted itself. I still have not received a reply to my
> letter from Vertex/Yaesu.
>
> I would like to feel completely comfortable with my decision to leave the
> mast out of the calculation, but if something happens and the rotator
> clamshell fails, and the antennas fall damaging part of my home......what
> will the insurance company determine? God forbid what if someone were hurt,
> or killed! The safety freak inside me has not been sleeping well waiting
> for an answer from Vertex/Yaesu (now 6 weeks overdue).
>
> Thanks for your email at least I know there is someone else who feels that
> the concentric force of the mast is insignificant compared to the eccentric
> torque of the antennae when calculating "K".
>
> At 10:31 AM 7/10/2001 -0600, N4KGwrote:
> Hi Frank,
>
> I have never understood why weight of the mast is a factor since
> it has such a small radius. Also, the K factor is not a "real"
> moment but a ficticous number that "sort of" indicates rotor
> capability. The actual moments depend on WHERE the weight
> is distributed. Empirical evidence is still the best criteria for
> rotor selection, unfortunately.
>
> Tom N4KG
>
>   73 de Frank, kb8xu
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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>



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From Roger Borowski" <K9RB@arrl.net  Wed Jul 11 14:20:42 2001
From: Roger Borowski" <K9RB@arrl.net (Roger Borowski)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:20:42 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk]
References: <20010711.072457.-29533.0.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <029101c10a0c$499d1080$0200a8c0@rbmain>


I agree, Tom. K Factor and absolute limits have nothing in common,
except that is the present day way of rating the rotor and was also the 
primary concern of Frank's original message. Is his system going to 
crash and burn, probably not. Is the K Factor a good approach to the 
selection of a rotator, probably not, but it is today's method. You are 
correct in saying that a better system of rating is still needed. 
My point was that if his selection makes him uncomfortable as to the 
safety of this rotator because of a calculated narrow margin of reserve
K factor, or maybe none now considering the weight of the mast, he 
would sleep better and likely have more security with a rotator with a 
larger capacity. In the case of rotators, bigger ratings usually mean 
better and longer service life, with the T2X tailtwister being the only 
exception I'm aware of. I don't wish to start another thread, and I have 
never owned a T2X, but I believe the majority of the Hygain/ CDE bell 
rotator "problems" occur from improper mast centering and the lack 
of appropriate use of shims to achieve concentricity between the mast 
and the rotor's fixed center,... but that's another whole subject that has 
been debated since the 50's, when the HAM-M's first became available. 
73, -=Rog-K9RB=-

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <n4kg@juno.com>
To: <K9RB@arrl.net>
Cc: <K7NV@Contesting.com>; <K7LXC@aol.com>; <FrankNorton@home.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk]


> Are you implying that the K factor is some kind of precise
> engineering number that accurately represents the moment
> of inertia of a rotating antenna?  I hope not.  There can be
> HUGE differences in moment of inertia based on the 
> DISTRIBUTION of the weight.  For example a 2 element
> low band yagi places all of the element weight at the ends 
> of the boom and would have a higher moment of inertia than
> a multi element tribander or high band monobander on the
> same length boom where both antennas have the same weight.
> 
> K factor is nothing more than a CRUDE GUESS at rotor capability,
> just as the old (empirical) ratings based on boom length were
> GUESSes of rotor capability.
> 
> The moment of inertia for any mast will be nearly insignificant
> because even though it may have a large weight, it's radius is
> VERY SMALL compared with the turning radius of the antennas.
> A heavy mast can easily weigh as much or more than a large
> antenna but the moment of intertia of the antenna will greatly
> exceed the moment of inertia of the mast.
> 
> K factor and "absolute limits" have nothing in common.
> A better system is STILL needed.
> 
> Tom  N4KG
> 
> 
> On Wed, 11 Jul 2001  "Roger Borowski" <K9RB@bellsouth.net> writes:
> > 
> > If your calculations are so close to the limitations of the G1000DXA 
> > without the
> > inclusion of the mast, and the mast weight pushes any safety margin 
> > over the
> > limitations for this rotor, you should have used a larger rotator, 
> > especially if
> > you
> > are uncomfortable now! Its never good practice to "engineer" 
> > mechanical things
> > to near their absolute limits. When doing so, short life and 
> > failures are
> > inevitable!
> > -=Rog-K9RB=-
> > 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
> 



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From k3gt@pgh.net  Wed Jul 11 15:05:24 2001
From: k3gt@pgh.net (Bob Thacker)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:05:24 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: How to raise mast? Now Climbing Safety
References: <200107102330.TAA09107@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <001901c109a6$b2ca2d60$be43193f@2lz3801> <3B4BDE43.B0ADECA@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <001901c10a12$8954a700$9f11193f@2lz3801>


Hi Pat,

Seems that youth brings stupidity, except I was that way until my daughter
Victoria was born at age 42! Guess that's youth? Naw, just stupidity!


> I have about 20' of 3" mast above the top of the tower.  I also have
> enough of IIX's Mast Steps to go the distance.  I'm curious about what
> sort of climbing gear I need to order.  And more importantly, how to use
> it.


I started with a straight Miller saftey belt with a fall arresting lanyard.
Forget the belt Pat, not safe enough. A hard fall could cause the belt to go
around your chest possibly suffocating you. Buy a full body harness, look in
QST for a picture of the ONV type. Not edorsing that one, but is a picture
of one.  Actually after many hours up top, I would buy the one with a seat.
A  friend gave me a full body harness that his gov't agency was tossing.
They get rid of them every 3-5 years regardless of condition. The one I got
was never used. However, you have to watch these types since they got rid of
them for a reason. The body harness' have 3 loops. One in the top of the
back is where you place the arresting harness.


> I'll order from Steve LXC, but I'm curious about the various options.  I
> understand the climbing rope is preferable because it is somewhat
> elastic.  Any thoughts?


Actuially Steve is the best authority here and have spoken with him on the
phone a cuple times. Wisdom comes from the consultation of many!

An arressting lanyard is meant to cushion the fall to a degree. It has an
elastic section to cushion the fall and is meant to be the saftey valve, or
second parachuhte. Attached it to the top loop in the back and will probably
keep your face away from the tower in a fall and keep you upright with shock
distributed to the harness contact points. Watch how you atttach it to the
crotch area!

I wouldnt be without the arresting lanyard. Mine is 6' long. At the top
while working on antennas, it is wrapped around the tower and through a
cross member. Shortens the fall. Remember to be attached AT ALL TIMES.

>
> I also note your comment about the 1' lanyard.  I didn't recall seeing
> that one, but wonder how you use it?   Sorry, although I worked on red
> iron, building bridges for about eight years, I've never done much tower
> climbing and harness's etc are new to me.  (there's nothing like walking
> steel without restraint or nets to teach the meaning of FOCUS)


The 3rd belt I tie on is the 1' one. It is used for attaching as a saftety
line for short excersions up and down the tower, but really, to wrap around
the mast. After you get used to the idea of being on a mast, the 1' lanyard
will hold you relatively close to it so work can be accomplished easily.
Takes a lot of courage though. Dont forget the lanyard has to be tied off
somewhere. Climb up and install a step above you  and tie the safety lanyard
there. Move the step up untill your as far as you need. Remember too that
the mast will sway as you climb and move. I refuse to climb it in any kind
of windy conditions.



>
> I assume one needs TWO lanyards, no?  Assume we're on the mast with
> steps.  I figure you need one 3' lanyard to 'flip' up as you climb (long
> to avoid snagging on the steps).  Then after you get to the point where
> you're working on the antenna, then you use the 1' lanyard to hold you
> close enough without having so much slack that you really have no
> support???


I use a 3' rope lanyard to tie around the tower and through a cross member
while on top. This way a fall is only minimal. Nonetheless, a fall will
hurt, but not kill necessarrily. I ALWAYS have 2 lanyards attaached while
working and at least 1 while climbing. The arresting one should alwas be on
while climbing since that is time one is most likely to slip and fall.

Another issue, the mast has to be sufficient to hold all your antennas and
your body weight. Never looked closely at your previous posts to see the
size. Actually I would consult on all of these issues with our tower expert,
LXC. Remember his rule, FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURERS DIRECTIONS. There is no
other way!

Another good idea is to search the tower talk archives on contesting.com, we
have discussed these issue in depth at least 3 or more times in the past.
Look over those and possibly start another thread on the subject  since we
cannot be too safe on this subject. We have previously lost hams, so
prevention is the best way to go. Forget the flames if they come!

Ok, what can I clarify?

73,

Bob, K3GT
neophyte tower climber, no longer stupid (Well...not according to the XYL!)


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From w2fca@qsl.net  Wed Jul 11 15:22:10 2001
From: w2fca@qsl.net (Frank & Barb Ayers)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:22:10 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: How to raise mast? Now Climbing Safety
Message-ID: <01c10a14$df85dc00$c3c01a26@default>


> I'll order from Steve LXC, but I'm curious about the various options.  I
> understand the climbing rope is preferable because it is somewhat
> elastic.  Any thoughts?

I believe there are static and dynamic climbing ropes. I have a bunch of
dynamic ropes that I have used for rock climbing and I've also used them for
working on my roof. They do have some give to them. For tower work, though,
I stick to an arressting lanyard. As good a job I may think I can do on
knots, I'd rather trust something made for the specific purpose of
tower/scaffold type work.

Frank
W2FCA


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From k1xt@hotmail.com  Wed Jul 11 15:10:50 2001
From: k1xt@hotmail.com (bill thomas)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:10:50 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Fwd: TA-33 traps
Message-ID: <LAW2-F62veD31i4qANb00016c69@hotmail.com>





>From: Edward Gable <k2mp@eznet.net>
>To: k1xt@hotmail.com
>CC: n2rd@arrl.net
>Subject: TA-33 traps
>Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:49:23 -0400
>
>Hello Bill:  Regarding TA-33 traps, here's the data:
>
>Director Trap: 23 and 14 turns, color code black
>Driven element traps: 24 and 14 turns, color code blue
>Reflector traps: 25 and 15 turns, color code brown
>
>All traps have smaller coil towards boom.
>
>Color code references a colored mark on the end of the
>white plastic coil forms.
>
>Good luck & 73,  Ed k2mp  Secty, Rochester DX Assn
>

_________________________________________________________________
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From W8JI@contesting.com  Wed Jul 11 15:33:11 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:33:11 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] RFI in Porch Lights
In-Reply-To: <F100fO06w1HFhrMTbVt0001ab1c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200107111336.f6BDaqP18183@paris.akorn.net>


> Any quick and easy suggestions to cure RF getting into my el cheapo
> motion/heat-sensing porch lights? I'm thinking of trying small caps across
> the input circuit?
> 
> Thanks and 73......./k6sdw

Any capacitor placed across a power line must be UL/CSA rated 
for line-bypass applications. The components are clearly marked 
with AC voltage ratings, and have UL/CSA and perhaps VDE logo's 
on them. 

Remember all those TV set fires in the 60's and 70's? Many were 
caused by power line bypasses. Normal disk capacitors will flame 
up like a torch if they short, and shorts are common because of 
line transients unless the capacitor is rated at well over 1kV dc. 

Whatever you do, small capacitors like that are a source of great 
heat if they fail. Be sure you have a proper flameproof enclosure 
and use the proper capacitor for line-bypass!!!

I've had success using .01uF 250VAC rated capacitors, in 
conjunction with ferrite beads over the leads arriving at the box, to 
tame my motion detecting lights.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Wed Jul 11 17:42:20 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:42:20 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Effective Moment/K Force & Yaesu rotators
Message-ID: <fb.168ca323.287ddbec@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/10/01 10:16:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
franknorton@home.com writes:

> I messed up that post about my confusion about calculating "K" tremendously 
>  by not putting in the source of my confusion--> The Yaesu web site, and 
the 
>  Texas Tower web site both leave out the mast in the calculation of the "K" 
>  factor , made sense to me. So I purchased my G1000DXA and waited for the 
>  UPS truck to bring my shiny new rotator, which I purchased with this new 
>  "scientific system" to assure my "safety freak" side all factors are 
>  covered. But when I open the box and read the manual there it is--> A half 
>  page explanation (with diagrams) that suddenly includes the weight of the 
>  mast in calculating the "K" factor. I didn't understand why--so I started 
>  making phone calls. I called Texas Towers and they didn't know for sure 
>  which was correct, next I tried Vertex and had no luck getting anyone but 
>  marketing who him-hawed around really not knowing what to do.
>  
>  My brother is a C.P.E. but not a ham, he felt that in engineering a 
>  structure he would not consider the mast, but since he did not have access 
>  to the engineering information on the rotor he could not say whether the 
>  vertical loading should be included in the "K" factor or not. Yaesu's own 
>  literature contradicted itself. I still have not received a reply to my 
>  letter from Vertex/Yaesu.
>  
>  I would like to feel completely comfortable with my decision to leave the 
>  mast out of the calculation, but if something happens and the rotator 
>  clamshell fails, and the antennas fall damaging part of my home......what 
>  will the insurance company determine? God forbid what if someone were 
hurt, 
>  or killed! The safety freak inside me has not been sleeping well waiting 
>  for an answer from Vertex/Yaesu (now 6 weeks overdue).
>  
>  Thanks for your email at least I know there is someone else who feels that 
>  the concentric force of the mast is insignificant compared to the 
eccentric 
>  torque of the antennae when calculating "K".
>  
>  At 10:31 AM 7/10/2001 -0600, N4KGwrote:
>  Hi Frank,
>  
>  I have never understood why weight of the mast is a factor since
>  it has such a small radius. Also, the K factor is not a "real"
>  moment but a ficticous number that "sort of" indicates rotor
>  capability. The actual moments depend on WHERE the weight
>  is distributed. Empirical evidence is still the best criteria for
>  rotor selection, unfortunately.
>  
>  Tom N4KG

    Frank - chill out and get some sleep. You're overreacting and I'll bet 
you a nickel that you never get a response from Yaesu/Vertex so don't worry 
about it. 

    Tom is correct. Effective Moment and K Force is an ESTIMATE from the 
factory based on their knowledge of the antenna loads and rotator capability. 

    Since EM/KF is weight times turning radius, the mast is insignificant. 
For example, a 70 pound 2" mast would have an EM/KF of 6.36 ft-lbs. The 
margin of error for an EM/KF is *much* higher than that. 

    The use of a foot-pounds of torque spec for rotators is more useful than 
the old "square footage" estimate since two antennas of identical square 
footage can have drastically different wind-induced torque forces and EM/KF's.

    BTW I picked up Yaesu's latest rotator brochure and there have been some 
changes to the specs. Some of the models now need 6-conductor control cables 
where they used 5-conductor previously. I heard they changed to DC motors or 
something like that. Also, the K Force for the G-1000 has been down-graded 
from 2020 ft-lbs to 1664 ft-lbs.

Cheers,    Steve     K7LXC
Tower Tech  

 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Wed Jul 11 17:58:09 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:58:09 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ropes
Message-ID: <104.5ec81ac.287ddfa1@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/11/01 7:19:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, w2fca@qsl.net 
writes:

> I believe there are static and dynamic climbing ropes. I have a bunch of
>  dynamic ropes that I have used for rock climbing and I've also used them 
for
>  working on my roof. They do have some give to them. For tower work, though,
>  I stick to an arressting lanyard. As good a job I may think I can do on
>  knots, I'd rather trust something made for the specific purpose of
>  tower/scaffold type work.
>  
    Actually static and dynamic can be the same rope. The static and dynamic 
have to do with testing and load application. Climbing ropes need to catch a 
falling object (a REAL dynamic load!) whereas tower ropes have static loads 
are just used for hauling. The tests and ratings are entirely different. 

    The rope materials are probably the same - synthetic fibers like nylon or 
dacron. 

    BTW I just saw some 3/8" braid-on-braid rope at Home Depot for something 
like ten feet for ten bucks. It's not quite long enough for a tower rope and 
it's a little small for hand-hauling but if you've got an application for it, 
it's a helluva price and value. 

    The braid-on-braid (or kernmantle) type rope is THE BEST in terms of 
abrasion resistance plus UV doesn't penetrate the outer sheath so it isn't 
subject to UV breakdown like other ropes. My 250 feet of braid-on-braid 
yachting rope has over 600 days of use on it; figure 4 or 5 or more lifts per 
day and you've got a WELL USED rope. It's in very good condition and I 
continue to use it. 

Cheers,     Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From mfarrer@tality.com  Wed Jul 11 19:11:51 2001
From: mfarrer@tality.com (Mel Farrer)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:11:51 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ropes
Message-ID: <97A30A2BBA23D411842900D0B726125D61654A@srvex03-sanjose.Cadence.COM>


Side note on cordage and rope.  I have found Pelican Rope Works has many
types of material.  I got a quote of $100 for a 1000 foot role of 1/4 "
polyester 12 strand braided.  Average tensile strength of 2,200 lbs.  Many
different types of rope and many sizes.  The 1/4" is not good for climbing
maybe, but a helleva price for UV stable rope.  BTW, 4000 ft is $85/1000.
http://www.thomasregister.com/olc/usrigging/

-----Original Message-----
From: K7LXC@aol.com [mailto:K7LXC@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 9:58 AM
To: w2fca@qsl.net; towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ropes



In a message dated 7/11/01 7:19:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, w2fca@qsl.net 
writes:

> I believe there are static and dynamic climbing ropes. I have a bunch of
>  dynamic ropes that I have used for rock climbing and I've also used them 
for
>  working on my roof. They do have some give to them. For tower work,
though,
>  I stick to an arressting lanyard. As good a job I may think I can do on
>  knots, I'd rather trust something made for the specific purpose of
>  tower/scaffold type work.
>  
    Actually static and dynamic can be the same rope. The static and dynamic

have to do with testing and load application. Climbing ropes need to catch a

falling object (a REAL dynamic load!) whereas tower ropes have static loads 
are just used for hauling. The tests and ratings are entirely different. 

    The rope materials are probably the same - synthetic fibers like nylon
or 
dacron. 

    BTW I just saw some 3/8" braid-on-braid rope at Home Depot for something

like ten feet for ten bucks. It's not quite long enough for a tower rope and

it's a little small for hand-hauling but if you've got an application for
it, 
it's a helluva price and value. 

    The braid-on-braid (or kernmantle) type rope is THE BEST in terms of 
abrasion resistance plus UV doesn't penetrate the outer sheath so it isn't 
subject to UV breakdown like other ropes. My 250 feet of braid-on-braid 
yachting rope has over 600 days of use on it; figure 4 or 5 or more lifts
per 
day and you've got a WELL USED rope. It's in very good condition and I 
continue to use it. 

Cheers,     Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From K7NV@contesting.com  Wed Jul 11 21:05:46 2001
From: K7NV@contesting.com (Kurt Andress)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:05:46 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Effective Moment/K Force & Yaesu rotators
References: <fb.168ca323.287ddbec@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B4CB19A.2F4EF5CE@contesting.com>


Hi,
FWIW, I agree with what Tom and Steve said.

I haven't seen the wording of the new Yaesu method of calculating the K value
including the mast. The mast is not currently in the description on their website.
However it says it should be done is how it should be done to correlate with their
empirically derived rating method. The thing I read says to check "K" and the surface
area rating, and if both are within limits, it should be good to go. But, they like
many others don't indicate what antenna area they mean, so ???? Since it is
empirically based, I expect they mean whatever antenna area the antenna mfgr's were
using when they collected the historical data to come up with the latest rating
numbers.

The adding the mast, and lowering of the acceptable "K" value means they found out
that the old numbers were resulting to too many failures(whatever that means),
regardless of any other more meaningful or relevant physics.

This is just a method to base a decision on with available (more or less) values,
nothing more. 

Does a small difference either way a big deal? Nope.
Will going up one capability level in the rotator series be better? Depends on your
definition of better.
Will overkilling the rotator make it last forever? Maybe, but probably not.
This is educated guessing, to get a ballpark estimate on how large a chunk of the
"forever spectrum", the rotator gets to occupy.

73, Kurt


> 
> >
> >  At 10:31 AM 7/10/2001 -0600, N4KGwrote:
> >  Hi Frank,
> >
> >  I have never understood why weight of the mast is a factor since
> >  it has such a small radius. Also, the K factor is not a "real"
> >  moment but a ficticous number that "sort of" indicates rotor
> >  capability. The actual moments depend on WHERE the weight
> >  is distributed. Empirical evidence is still the best criteria for
> >  rotor selection, unfortunately.
> >
> >  Tom N4KG
> 

K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
>     Frank - chill out and get some sleep. You're overreacting and I'll bet
> you a nickel that you never get a response from Yaesu/Vertex so don't worry
> about it.
> 
>     Tom is correct. Effective Moment and K Force is an ESTIMATE from the
> factory based on their knowledge of the antenna loads and rotator capability.
> 
>     Since EM/KF is weight times turning radius, the mast is insignificant.
> For example, a 70 pound 2" mast would have an EM/KF of 6.36 ft-lbs. The
> margin of error for an EM/KF is *much* higher than that.
> 
>     The use of a foot-pounds of torque spec for rotators is more useful than
> the old "square footage" estimate since two antennas of identical square
> footage can have drastically different wind-induced torque forces and EM/KF's.
> 
>     BTW I picked up Yaesu's latest rotator brochure and there have been some
> changes to the specs. Some of the models now need 6-conductor control cables
> where they used 5-conductor previously. I heard they changed to DC motors or
> something like that. Also, the K Force for the G-1000 has been down-graded
> from 2020 ft-lbs to 1664 ft-lbs.
> 
> Cheers,    Steve     K7LXC
> Tower Tech
> 
>

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Wed Jul 11 22:04:32 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:04:32 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Effective Moment/K Force & Yaesu rotators
Message-ID: <e4.17a4c6af.287e1960@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/11/01 1:06:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
K7NV@contesting.com writes:

> Will overkilling the rotator make it last forever? Maybe, but probably not.
>  This is educated guessing, to get a ballpark estimate on how large a chunk 
> of the
>  "forever spectrum", the rotator gets to occupy.

    It's been my experience that the rotator is the weak link in the antenna 
system. While towers and other hardware will last for 15 years and more, a 
rotator has a practical service life of 6 or 7 years. 

    Don't tell me about your Ham M that's been working since 1968 - you've 
been lucky. 

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From heatwole@clark.net  Thu Jul 12 00:21:36 2001
From: heatwole@clark.net (Nat Heatwole)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:21:36 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Trees Impeding HF Signals?
References: <013b01c10411$dc2ee320$14dc41c2@telepac.pt> <002c01c1041b$7c805da0$0e84bbd0@w7ti>
Message-ID: <008601c10a60$44852840$f101dc0a@direcpc.com>


This is substantially more of an issue at VHF/UHF, but I'm wondering how
much trees/shrubbery impede signals at HF? If your antenna has to "see
through" a fair number of trees to get to EU (for example) could the trees
actually impede your signal? Could your signal in EU suffer as opposed to if
there were no trees in the antennas path? What about line of sight
propagation on the low bands or groundwave on the high bands, any "tree
loses" there? Could it actually be more advantageous to place an antenna
higher and suffer any changes in takeoff angle to avoid losses in trees, or
is "tree lose" not very (if at all) damaging to signals at HF?

73, Nat, WZ3AR
<heatwole@clark.net>
Damascus, Maryland


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From n4zr@contesting.com  Wed Jul 11 13:32:46 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:32:46 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk]
In-Reply-To: <025201c109ff$0d3e9440$0200a8c0@rbmain>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010711010008.009f8880@mail>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010711083246.009e0500@mail.abs.adelphia.net>


At 07:45 AM 7/11/01 -0400, Roger Borowski wrote:
>
>If your calculations are so close to the limitations of the G1000DXA
without the
>inclusion of the mast, and the mast weight pushes any safety margin over the
>limitations for this rotor, you should have used a larger rotator,
especially if
>you
>are uncomfortable now! Its never good practice to "engineer" mechanical
things
>to near their absolute limits. When doing so, short life and failures are
>inevitable!

But this assumes some plausible linkage between the K-factor and the
mechanical capabilities of the rotator, and there is none -- no real
antenna has all its mass located at its turning radius's distance from the
mast center.  

As long as the weight of the mast doesn't cause the entire installation to
exceed the static weight limits of the G-1000, there's no reason to factor
it in, because the maximum "lever arm" for that weight is less than 2
inches.  

73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From n4zr@contesting.com  Wed Jul 11 20:09:58 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:09:58 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Effective Moment/K Force & Yaesu rotators
In-Reply-To: <fb.168ca323.287ddbec@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010711150958.009dc530@mail.abs.adelphia.net>


At 12:42 PM 7/11/01 EDT, K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
>    BTW I picked up Yaesu's latest rotator brochure and there have been some 
>changes to the specs. Some of the models now need 6-conductor control cables 
>where they used 5-conductor previously. I heard they changed to DC motors or 
>something like that. Also, the K Force for the G-1000 has been down-graded 
>from 2020 ft-lbs to 1664 ft-lbs.

Before total confusion sets in .... it's true that the G-800 and G-1000
series now say they need a 6-wire control cable.  I've been told that this
was done to meet CE requirements (something to do with a common ground).
In fact, I was told by Yaesu USA (Jerry Darby) that the G-800SA only needs
4 or 5 of the six conductors to operate properly.

Just out of curiosity, I compared the schematic of my G-1000SDX with that
of the G-800/1000SA, and there is virtually no visible commonality.  They
also operate quite differently -- with the G-1000SDX, if there is an open
circuit in the indicator lines to the rotator, the indicator needle is
driven up against the counterclockwise stop, and there have been some
reports of damage to the control box if this went uncorrected for a long
period.  This does not happen with my G-800SA -- in fact, the only
indication of open circuits is that the OVERLAP light goes on, regardless
of position.

Another improvement is that the antenna position at which the overlap light
comes on is now adjustable from the rear.  On the old control boxes it was
not adjustable, and over time, wear on a plastic cam on the indicator shaft
would cause the overlap point to drift. 

As for the K-factor, since it is virtually unrelated to the real moment
felt by the rotator, the change in Yaesu's numbers amounts to nothing more
than a change in the fudge factor.  

73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From n1ln@earthlink.net  Thu Jul 12 01:14:43 2001
From: n1ln@earthlink.net (N1LN)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:14:43 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Yaesu rotators
References: <3.0.6.32.20010711150958.009dc530@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <008f01c10a67$a73a2740$e38afea9@im02>


While Yaesu rotors seem to be one of the hot topics....


I have had my G-2800SDX for about 2 years.  It is sitting about 95 feet up
and turning
my Tennedyne T10 and Cushcraft XM240.

I have a couple of problems and wonder if I am alone.

1.  The control box indicator moves when my 2 mtr packet station transmits.
The
higher the power the more it moves.   I just added a second HF XCVR ( IC -
746) to
my station.   When that transmits it also moves.   My other XCVR is a Yaesu
FT-1000-MP.   Doesn't matter what band....... NO MOVEMENT.   I have grounded
/ re-grounded / choked / re-choked / moved AC power...   NO LUCK


2.  In the last 6 months the rotation speed has decreased.   I don't have a
second control head so all I have done is replaced the cable from the
control head to the tower
bottom.  I also checked the connector at the rotor for corrosion... all
appears OK.   It is less than easy to take the head to 95' .....


Any suggestions for either problem would be welcome.


Bruce - N1LN


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From w5kp@swbell.net  Thu Jul 12 01:57:30 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:57:30 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Mast galvanizing
Message-ID: <00f001c10a6d$a1367be0$f020c1cf@jkdesktop>


The 23' long, 2" OD, 3/16" wall 4130N mast has been galvanized and I'll pick
it up this weekend. Just for info for others considering doing this, the
galvanizer charged $0.40 per pound for galvanzing with a $100 minimum. This
means, of course, that at about 70 lb, or $28 each, I could have done
several of these at once and saved some serious galvanizing money. I thought
of doing just that, but wasn't sure I could find buyers for the other three
or four. My cost total was $125 for the tubing plus $100 (the minimum) for
the galvanizing. If I had done four, it would have been a total of $500 for
the tubing, plus about $112 for the galvanizing, for a grand total of $612 /
4 or about $153 each. Could have had 1/4" wall for about $7 per foot instead
of the $5 per foot for the 3/16, if I had wanted to deal with the 140 lb
weight. Using 1/4" would have resulted in a total of $644 tubing cost, plus
$224 galvanizing cost, or $868 total / 4 = $217 each, assuming all were 23'
long. All in all, a very reasonable cost per mast for chromoly, when you
consider what they cost to order from TT or others. I'm throwing all this
out because somebody else doing this in the future might be well advised to
collect several interested folks within driving distance and order and
galvanize 4 or 5 of these at a time, and everybody makes out. I'd have done
that but didn't find any local interest in it, so I bit the galvanizing
bullet on the single piece of tubing. Still came out cheaper at $225 than I
could have done from TT or others, mainly because of the horrendous shipping
costs for single masts, plus ended up with a 23' mast instead of a 15' or
17'. Also, I predrilled the tubing with a drill press top and bottom before
galvanizing. The top hole (9/16") is for a 2000 lb working load galvanized
eyebolt, the bottom (9 mm) is for the "pinning" bolt on the Yaesu G1000DXA
rotator. Doing that resulted in 100% zinc coverage, vice drilling after
galvanizing and leaving bare steel to generate running rust. Incidentally, I
measured the TB-3's ID, and there is PLENTY of clearance there to slide a 2"
the mast through - at least a sixteenth, maybe a little more. Zinc coating
is only a few mils.

Next comes trying to prop up, temp guy, and plumb 3 sections of 45G (less 3'
down in the hole/gravel) with the mast strapped inside, without killing
myself or any of my friends. It can't be THAT bad, the whole thing only
weighs about 280 lb. Getting close to concrete time after that.
73 to all, Jerry W5KP


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From franknorton@home.com  Thu Jul 12 02:36:54 2001
From: franknorton@home.com (Frank Norton)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 21:36:54 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Yaesu "K" factor
In-Reply-To: <025201c109ff$0d3e9440$0200a8c0@rbmain>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010711010008.009f8880@mail>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010711212429.00a15b00@mail>


Roger,

I did not over engineer!  I posed a question, how I solved my installation 
is not the issue.  The point is that a mast can and often does weigh up to 
or over 100 lbs,  should someone buy a G1000 or not?  Yaesu contradicts 
themselves; in sales literature they say yes, in installation manual they 
say no.  A paradox that I did not create, I am simply bringing it to light.

Most principles of engineering would say that the mast is centered over the 
rotor it is vertical load.  Further that it contributes to torque only in 
the length of the mast as wind surface.  I personally feel that Yaesu 
should clarify which of their publications is the one they define as the 
correct method to determine "K".

Thanks for your thoughts Rog.

73,

Frank, kb8xu

At 07:45 AM 7/11/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>If your calculations are so close to the limitations of the G1000DXA 
>without the
>inclusion of the mast, and the mast weight pushes any safety margin over the
>limitations for this rotor, you should have used a larger rotator, 
>especially if
>you
>are uncomfortable now! Its never good practice to "engineer" mechanical things
>to near their absolute limits. When doing so, short life and failures are
>inevitable!
>-=Rog-K9RB=-
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Frank Norton <franknorton@home.com>
>To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 1:11 AM
>Subject: [TowerTalk]
>
>
> >
> > Portions from a personal email from Tom, n4kg,
> >
> > (small portions of prior posts removed to save bandwidth)
> >
> > On Mon, 28 May 2001 19:39:15 -0400 Frank Norton <franknorton@home.com>
> > writes:
> >  > Hello everyone,
> >  >
> >  > I have followed with great interest the discussion about using a Yaesu
> >  > G1000. I am unclear as to the use of foot-pounds in
> >  > expressing the K factor Yaesu has calculated for safe use of it's
> >  > rotors. It is confusing for those who cannot convert easily, and each
> >  > added step adds a factor of uncertainty.
> >  >
> >  > According to the Yaesu rotor manual "K" is calculated by the
> > multiplication of the
> >  > turning radius of the antenna (in meters) by the weight of the 
> antenna (in
> >  > Kg), and the weight of the mast (in Kg)
> >
> >  >In addition to this calculation one must ensure the square meters of wind
> >  > surface area do not exceed 2.2 m2. My brother, who is a 
> mechanicalengineer
> >  >ran several calculations on the G1000 and believes it easily 
> capable........
> >
> > NOTE:  1st para refers to post about 6-8 wks ago  but is self explanatory
> > in the discussion that follows.
> >
> >
> > I messed up that post about my confusion about calculating "K" tremendously
> > by not putting in the source of my confusion--> The Yaesu web site, and the
> > Texas Tower web site both leave out the mast in the calculation of the "K"
> > factor , made sense to me. So I purchased my G1000DXA and waited for the
> > UPS truck to bring my shiny new rotator, which I purchased with this new
> > "scientific system" to assure my "safety freak" side all factors are
> > covered. But when I open the box and read the manual there it is--> A half
> > page explanation (with diagrams) that suddenly includes the weight of the
> > mast in calculating the "K" factor. I didn't understand why--so I started
> > making phone calls. I called Texas Towers and they didn't know for sure
> > which was correct, next I tried Vertex and had no luck getting anyone but
> > marketing who him-hawed around really not knowing what to do.
> >
> > My brother is a C.P.E. but not a ham, he felt that in engineering a
> > structure he would not consider the mast, but since he did not have access
> > to the engineering information on the rotor he could not say whether the
> > vertical loading should be included in the "K" factor or not. Yaesu's own
> > literature contradicted itself. I still have not received a reply to my
> > letter from Vertex/Yaesu.
> >
> > I would like to feel completely comfortable with my decision to leave the
> > mast out of the calculation, but if something happens and the rotator
> > clamshell fails, and the antennas fall damaging part of my home......what
> > will the insurance company determine? God forbid what if someone were hurt,
> > or killed! The safety freak inside me has not been sleeping well waiting
> > for an answer from Vertex/Yaesu (now 6 weeks overdue).
> >
> > Thanks for your email at least I know there is someone else who feels that
> > the concentric force of the mast is insignificant compared to the eccentric
> > torque of the antennae when calculating "K".
> >
> > At 10:31 AM 7/10/2001 -0600, N4KGwrote:
> > Hi Frank,
> >
> > I have never understood why weight of the mast is a factor since
> > it has such a small radius. Also, the K factor is not a "real"
> > moment but a ficticous number that "sort of" indicates rotor
> > capability. The actual moments depend on WHERE the weight
> > is distributed. Empirical evidence is still the best criteria for
> > rotor selection, unfortunately.
> >
> > Tom N4KG
> >
> >   73 de Frank, kb8xu
> >
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
> Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
>HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
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> >


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From n3rr@erols.com  Thu Jul 12 01:55:39 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 01:55:39 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Mast galvanizing
In-Reply-To: <00f001c10a6d$a1367be0$f020c1cf@jkdesktop>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPAEOACCAA.n3rr@erols.com>


TT's,

Let me correct a statement I made a week ago.

I was wrong when I stated that galvanizing will lower the tensile strength
of the steel. I was using a "rule-of-thumb" that I have now determined to be
incorrect.  See below:

Galvanizing of steel with tensile strength of less than 150,000# does not
effect the resulting tensile strength of the material after galvanizing.

I checked with the American Galvanizing Association and they faxed me
excerpts from the ASTM and other references.

So, unless the initial tensile strength of the steel to be galvanized
exceeds 150,000#, galvanizing it will not affect its strength after
galvanizing.  Typical tensile strength of chrome molly steel is in the
100,000# - 120,000# range.

73,

Bill, N3RR



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From w7ti@dslextreme.com  Thu Jul 12 03:00:08 2001
From: w7ti@dslextreme.com (Bill Turner)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:00:08 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Trees Impeding HF Signals?
In-Reply-To: <008601c10a60$44852840$f101dc0a@direcpc.com>
References: <013b01c10411$dc2ee320$14dc41c2@telepac.pt> <002c01c1041b$7c805da0$0e84bbd0@w7ti> <008601c10a60$44852840$f101dc0a@direcpc.com>
Message-ID: <rh0qkt8n1c5g1nqqf3lnfmf2p0kjcrj509@4ax.com>


On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:21:36 -0400, Nat Heatwole wrote:

>This is substantially more of an issue at VHF/UHF, but I'm wondering how
>much trees/shrubbery impede signals at HF?

_________________________________________________________

When I lived in the Seattle area I had a number of 110+ foot tall
Douglas firs about 20 feet from my antenna, completely covering
the path to Europe.  I wondered the same thing - are they
absorbing RF?

As far as I could tell, the answer is no.  Signal strengths from
other directions at about the same distance were the same.  My
observations went on over a seven year period, during which time
I put about 25,000 QSOs in the log, mostly RTTY, mostly during
contests.

I realize this is not a scientific comparison at all, but after
that much operating, I am sure my observations were correct.

Hope this helps.

73, Bill W7TI

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From n7us@arrl.net  Thu Jul 12 04:40:38 2001
From: n7us@arrl.net (Jim McDonald)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:40:38 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Yaesu rotators
References: <3.0.6.32.20010711150958.009dc530@mail.abs.adelphia.net> <008f01c10a67$a73a2740$e38afea9@im02>
Message-ID: <00ad01c10a84$6b76e780$f00add18@phoenix.speedchoice.com>


Bruce,

I too have a G-2800SDX and found the indicator to move when I transmitted
with my FT-1000MP, which I assumed is RF getting into it.  I tried different
grounding connections and found that a small braid between the MP and a
grounded screw on the rotor control unit fixed it.

I don't remember which bands/antennas had the problem, and I've moved since
it happened.  I just reconnected the braid and haven't had that problem.

I haven't noticed the speed decreasing, though maybe I prevented that by
having a shorter cable run this time!

Jim N7US


----- Original Message -----
From: "N1LN" <n1ln@earthlink.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 5:14 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Yaesu rotators



While Yaesu rotors seem to be one of the hot topics....


I have had my G-2800SDX for about 2 years.  It is sitting about 95 feet up
and turning
my Tennedyne T10 and Cushcraft XM240.

I have a couple of problems and wonder if I am alone.

1.  The control box indicator moves when my 2 mtr packet station transmits.
The
higher the power the more it moves.   I just added a second HF XCVR ( IC -
746) to
my station.   When that transmits it also moves.   My other XCVR is a Yaesu
FT-1000-MP.   Doesn't matter what band....... NO MOVEMENT.   I have grounded
/ re-grounded / choked / re-choked / moved AC power...   NO LUCK


2.  In the last 6 months the rotation speed has decreased.   I don't have a
second control head so all I have done is replaced the cable from the
control head to the tower
bottom.  I also checked the connector at the rotor for corrosion... all
appears OK.   It is less than easy to take the head to 95' .....


Any suggestions for either problem would be welcome.


Bruce - N1LN


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From dhb@mediaone.net  Thu Jul 12 04:47:23 2001
From: dhb@mediaone.net (Dave, AA6YQ)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:47:23 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Yaesu rotators
In-Reply-To: <008f01c10a67$a73a2740$e38afea9@im02>
Message-ID: <000001c10a85$6137cea0$9201a8c0@natomaradio>


I experienced a reduction in rotation speed, but only in one direction.
Mechanical switches sense when the positioner is nearing its objective;
one of these had moved out of alignment.

The circuit design of this controller is terrible, IMHO. A competent
design would lower the parts count by a factor of 5 or more and
significantly increase reliability.

    73,

        Dave, AA6YQ

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of N1LN
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 5:15 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Yaesu rotators


While Yaesu rotors seem to be one of the hot topics....


I have had my G-2800SDX for about 2 years.  It is sitting about 95 feet
up
and turning
my Tennedyne T10 and Cushcraft XM240.

I have a couple of problems and wonder if I am alone.

1.  The control box indicator moves when my 2 mtr packet station
transmits.
The
higher the power the more it moves.   I just added a second HF XCVR ( IC
-
746) to
my station.   When that transmits it also moves.   My other XCVR is a
Yaesu
FT-1000-MP.   Doesn't matter what band....... NO MOVEMENT.   I have
grounded
/ re-grounded / choked / re-choked / moved AC power...   NO LUCK


2.  In the last 6 months the rotation speed has decreased.   I don't
have a
second control head so all I have done is replaced the cable from the
control head to the tower
bottom.  I also checked the connector at the rotor for corrosion... all
appears OK.   It is less than easy to take the head to 95' .....


Any suggestions for either problem would be welcome.


Bruce - N1LN


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From w9jcc@juno.com  Thu Jul 12 02:33:23 2001
From: w9jcc@juno.com (Frank C. Travanty)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:33:23 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Effective Moment/K Force & Yaesu rotators
Message-ID: <20010711.203806.-138965.0.w9jcc@juno.com>


They must have built them good in 1968. My Ham-M turned a TH6DXX from
1968 thru 1998. It was still working fine when I retired it. The pot was
beginning to get scratchy and the terminal strip was corroded, but was
otherwise fine and had never failed during those years. I now have a
2800SDX with a larger array, and will be very dissapointed if it only
lasts 6-7 years. 

73,
Frank W9JCC

On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:04:32 EDT K7LXC@aol.com writes:
> 
> In a message dated 7/11/01 1:06:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> K7NV@contesting.com writes:
> 
> > Will overkilling the rotator make it last forever? Maybe, but 
> probably not.
> >  This is educated guessing, to get a ballpark estimate on how 
> large a chunk 
> > of the
> >  "forever spectrum", the rotator gets to occupy.
> 
>     It's been my experience that the rotator is the weak link in the 
> antenna 
> system. While towers and other hardware will last for 15 years and 
> more, a 
> rotator has a practical service life of 6 or 7 years. 
> 
>     Don't tell me about your Ham M that's been working since 1968 - 
> you've 
> been lucky. 
> 
> Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
> Tower Tech 
> 
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> - up to
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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Thu Jul 12 06:02:44 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 01:02:44 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Trylon Update #5
Message-ID: <001901c10a8f$e6904460$616ffd3f@spelunk.sueno>


TT:

     I know I said I'd wait until I had the entire 64 feet up and inspected
but here goes anyway.   I just today finished building the fourth section,
putting the tower so far at 32 feet - half way there.  I daisy-chained the
three legs of each section on a rope and hauled each leg up the tower one at
a time, then bolted it into position.  Then I descended to ground level and
tied half the cross braces (9) to the rope and hauled them up.  I bolted
each brace into position loosely, then I checked for trueness (no twist) in
the section.  Once I was satisfied, I tightened the bolts in that section.
Then I climbed down and rigged and hauled up the second half of the braces,
etc.

     So far it's taken me about two hours per section to rig, haul and bolt
the steel into position by myself.  I'm sure a second set of hands would cut
the time somewhat.  From this point on I'm going to have to assemble the
sections from OUTSIDE the tower.  The sections are getting too narrow for me
to stay inside while I bolt the braces into position.

     The tower isn't very obvious from the street, even at 32 feet high.
It's located among a bunch of trees (deciduous and evergreen) that are about
forty feet tall.  I think the next section of tower will just about peek
over the tree tops.  The zinc plating, however, looks almost like shiny
aluminum.  So I've decided to paint the tower - dark brown at the bottom and
light gray or bluish gray at the top - to cut down on the glare.  (The tower
is only 25 feet from the property lines between my house and two
neighbors'.)

     Grounding conductor (#2 tinned solid copper) and additional ground
clamps are on order, as is the 2 inch chrome-moly tubing, 22 feet long, for
the mast.  I'll order the ground rods, Cadweld shots and coax cable
tomorrow.  I won't add to the height of the tower until the ground system is
in place and connected.  I expect to have the final inspection before the
end of the month.  Then come the antennas.

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F

P.S.  Local Cable TV company is rewiring the neighboorhood.  Maybe I can
talk the crews into opening the ground wire and conduit trenches for me.
Would save me a bunch of time and aggravation.  Stay tuned.


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From bjk@ihug.co.nz  Thu Jul 12 06:34:32 2001
From: bjk@ihug.co.nz (Barry Kirkwood)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:34:32 +1200
Subject: [TowerTalk] rope
Message-ID: <002201c10a94$54ede940$f5d2adcb@ihug.co.nz>


following the thread about ropes and climbing with great interest.
have yet to spend some time at a rock gym learning modern techniques, my
experience based on a certain amount of sailing, plus mountain climbing in
th olden days.
plus some recent adventures building my present modest radio installation.
first, thanks to the wonderful n1lo web page, i discovered that some of my
knowledge was dangerously out of date.
a must read.
second: i am not familiar with the terminology of static and dynamic ropes,
but am very aware that some ropes are stretchy eg nylon and others not eg
kevlar.
 where fall arrest is concerned i would go stretchy, whatever you call it.
of late i have been installing a static rope (which is made from dynamic
rope) as soon as i get up the tower. this is secured at top and bottom of
the tower.
i fit a pelz ascender to it and hook on to my harness.
this way i am never detached.
the device is like a ratchet and locks as soon as it is under load.
think it way better than the gorilla hooks of arrl antenna book.
use the lanyards/belt when at the work site, but stay hooked to the line at
all times.
seems to me a good way to go, but i have lots to learn.
comments?
sorry about all lower case but my big cat wants to be cuddled and doing this
with one hand.
73

end
Barry Kirkwood PhD ZL1DD
Signal Hill Homestay
66 Cory Road
Palm Beach
Waiheke Island 1240
NEW ZEALAND
www.waiheke.co.nz/signal.htm



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From n4kg@juno.com  Thu Jul 12 14:13:02 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:13:02 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Trees Impeding HF Signals?
Message-ID: <20010712.074454.-103265.1.N4KG@juno.com>


The military used HF for their mobile communications
in Vietnam precisely because it would penetrate the
jungle environment.

There was an article in Ham Radio Magazine on
phased verticals many years ago where the author
used trees to support wire verticals (on 40M I think)
and his measured impedances were very close to
his calculated numbers which would imply little
interaction.

Tom  N4KG

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From n4kg@juno.com  Thu Jul 12 14:31:38 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:31:38 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tower / Rotor Durability
Message-ID: <20010712.074454.-103265.3.N4KG@juno.com>


On Wed, 11 Jul 2001  K7LXC@aol.com writes:
> 
> In a message dated 7/11/01 1:06:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> K7NV@contesting.com writes:
> 
> > Will overkilling the rotator make it last forever? Maybe, but 
> probably not.  This is educated guessing, to get a ballpark 
>estimate on how  large a chunk  of the
> >  "forever spectrum", the rotator gets to occupy.
> 
>     It's been my experience that the rotator is the weak link in the 
> antenna  system. While towers and other hardware will last for 15 years

> and  more, a  rotator has a practical service life of 6 or 7 years. 
> 
>     Don't tell me about your Ham M that's been working since 1968 - 
> you've  been lucky. 
> 
> Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
> Tower Tech 

If I remember correctly, someone at Rohn told me the service
life of their towers was believed to be 40 years in a non-corrosive 
atmosphere.  Anybody else know / remember?

And yes, I have had 25 years of service from a reconditioned
HAM-M rotor, turning a Mosley 2L Quad and then a TH6.  It
has recently stopped turning.  I suspect some wires have 
finally broken at the terminal strip but have not climbed up 
to inspect. 

Most of my early HAM series rotors with 'pot metal' gears
suffered from broken ring gears which have been replaced
with steel gears.

Tom  N4KG


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From K7LXC@aol.com  Thu Jul 12 14:06:35 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:06:35 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Mast galvanizing
Message-ID: <3c.e3ff0bb.287efadb@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/11/01 6:06:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, w5kp@swbell.net 
writes:

> Incidentally, I
>  measured the TB-3's ID, and there is PLENTY of clearance there to slide a 
2"
>  the mast through - at least a sixteenth, maybe a little more. Zinc coating
>  is only a few mils.
    
    If you're lucky. While the actual coating is only a few mils, you may get 
clumps of slag on the mast from the galvanizing process that need to be filed 
off before it'll pass through the TB. Most of the ones I've gotten galvanized 
were fine but the last one needed lots of filing before it'd slide thru the 
TB. 

    Check it out on the ground - it's much easier there than up on the top of 
the tower while you're trying to drop the mast down.

Cheers,       Steve     K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From w5kp@swbell.net  Thu Jul 12 17:41:16 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:41:16 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] IIX RM-16 Side Rotator Mount
Message-ID: <002d01c10af1$78eeda40$7920c1cf@jkdesktop>


Anybody out there using one of these things that would care to comment on
how well it's working out, and does anybody know if these things will handle
one of the C3 models? They look fairly stout. On this 45G I'm going to have
non-metallic guys with lots of swinging room above the first set of guys,
and a spare Ham IV rotator. Daydreaming ahead about maybe stacking one of
the smaller F12's about 35' below the C3XLD, which will be at 75'.
Tks, Jerry W5KP


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From Eric Moore" <emoore@windemullerelectric.com  Thu Jul 12 18:59:08 2001
From: Eric Moore" <emoore@windemullerelectric.com (Eric Moore)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:59:08 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Create RC5-3 Rotor
Message-ID: <026501c10afc$5b0c65a0$29000101@windemullerelectric.com>


Hello Guys,

I am trying to help out a friend that bought a Create RC5-3 rotor.  It
seems like a nice rotor, but the connector in the rotor itself is broken
and he is trying to find another connector.  Does anyone know how to get
ahold of this company?  I searched the internet and could not find
anything, except one for sale on Eham.net.  Does anyone have a part number
for this connector?  It looks alot like the connector in my Yeasu 800, but
it is up on the tower and I am not 100% sure.  Any info would be great.  He
does not what cobble it together and would prefer to use the proper
connector, but if he can't find it, he would like to know if anybody
happens to have a part number for a connector that would work.

73,
Eric Moore
K8CCA

** Digi-Face **
The Economical radio to computer interface
Get on the Digital modes PSK-31/RTTY/SSTV
http://www.i2k.com/~emoore/Digi-face.html


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From k6sdw@arrl.net  Thu Jul 12 22:17:10 2001
From: k6sdw@arrl.net (Eddy Avila)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:17:10 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] RFI in Porch Lights
Message-ID: <F650q0NTY9agv3SuY2P000022cf@hotmail.com>


Tom el al.....a .01 Hi-voltage cap from the AC leads to the copper ground 
did the trick....no more "dancing" porch lights when I'm on the air!

Thanks to all for your help......73

/ed


> > Any quick and easy suggestions to cure RF getting into my el cheapo
> > motion/heat-sensing porch lights? I'm thinking of trying small caps 
>across
> > the input circuit?
> >
> > Thanks and 73......./k6sdw
>
>Any capacitor placed across a power line must be UL/CSA rated
>for line-bypass applications. The components are clearly marked
>with AC voltage ratings, and have UL/CSA and perhaps VDE logo's
>on them.
>
>Remember all those TV set fires in the 60's and 70's? Many were
>caused by power line bypasses. Normal disk capacitors will flame
>up like a torch if they short, and shorts are common because of
>line transients unless the capacitor is rated at well over 1kV dc.
>
>Whatever you do, small capacitors like that are a source of great
>heat if they fail. Be sure you have a proper flameproof enclosure
>and use the proper capacitor for line-bypass!!!
>
>I've had success using .01uF 250VAC rated capacitors, in
>conjunction with ferrite beads over the leads arriving at the box, to
>tame my motion detecting lights.
>73, Tom W8JI
>W8JI@contesting.com

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From kilo.mike@gte.net  Fri Jul 13 00:01:37 2001
From: kilo.mike@gte.net (Kris Mraz)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 23:01:37 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] HDR-300 production
Message-ID: <3B4E2C51.2CFD7FFD@gte.net>


I asked MFJ if I could buy just the HDR-300A controller since I saw
the HDR-300A on their Hygain web site. Here's their reply.

Kris N5KM

http://www.hy-gain.com/hy-gain/products.php?prodid=HDR-300A


Hygain Email wrote:
> 
> Dear Sir,
> 
> Not at this time.  The HDR-300A is not being produced.
> 
> Thank You,
> Jim Shurden
> Hygain Customer Service
> 
> =================================
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kris Mraz" <kilo.mike@gte.net>
> To: <mfjcustserv@mfjenterprises.com>
> Sent: 06. juuli 2001. a. 23:10
> Subject: hdr-300 parts
> 
> > Is it possible to buy just the contoller for the HDR-300A?
> > If so what is the price and part number? Thanks.
> >
> > Kris Mraz
> > kilo.mike@gte.net
> >

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From k4rv@mindspring.com  Fri Jul 13 00:02:38 2001
From: k4rv@mindspring.com (Sain'T Tom)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:02:38 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] KLM
Message-ID: <005e01c10b26$bf7a2340$ccadf7a5@0019536339>


Looking for manual and/or assembly instructions for a 4 element 15 meter KLM
yagi(model 15M4, I think).  This antenna is one of the no longer produced
KLM dual driven element yagis on a 14 foot boom.

Any help is much appreciated.

Thanks & 73
Tom K4RV


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From eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com  Fri Jul 13 01:34:00 2001
From: eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com (Eugene Jensen)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 20:34:00 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Mast coatings
In-Reply-To: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPAEOACCAA.n3rr@erols.com>
Message-ID: <CPEFKNIOLPDOBHEPLMKMKEIHCBAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>


I have located 1/4 wall 4130N mast in Pa and don't want to go thought the
heart burn of having it galvanized. I have some two part epoxy PPG
industrial paint that left over from a HV switchgear building project that 3
years later looks like the day it was painted. A nice bluegray (maybe hide
new 80 Meter F12 Yagi :-). Battery Acid run off this stuff like rain water.
Any thought on the doing it this way because I seem to remember powder
coating was another way of doing it. Tx Gene K2QWD


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From w5kp@swbell.net  Fri Jul 13 12:27:34 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 06:27:34 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] IIX RM-16 Side Mount
Message-ID: <005d01c10b8e$d0e64ce0$4920c1cf@jkdesktop>


Thanks for all the informative replies on this and other similar sidemounts.
Looks like there are several out there that would do the job. I'm staying
away from TIC due to cost and other factors. Now I need to look closely at
element spacing. Don't know how many yagis out there have the needed 56.5"
of element spacing (per the Array Solutions website) needed at the mounting
point to allow rotation around the 45G. I suspect not many. I'll have to get
the dimensions of the newest line of C3's from Force 12, I guess.
Many thanks to all who replied (a bunch!).
73, Jerry W5KP


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From k0bx@qsl.net  Fri Jul 13 16:02:13 2001
From: k0bx@qsl.net (k0bx@qsl.net)
Date: 13 Jul 2001 08:02:13 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tennadyne T7 DB Gain Question
Message-ID: <20010713150213.22246.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>


I am looking to replace my Hygain DB10/15 Dualband beam with a 
Tennadyne T7 18-33 MHZ log.  It would be located under my Hygain
204BA (20 Meter Monobander).
On the Tennadyne website it give the gain figure as
"6.2 dBd"?  I am not sure what dBd is?  Should I subtract 3 from
the figure to get the real DB gain?
Anyone have this antenna and have a comment about it?
Thanks
Joe K0BX

k0bx@qsl.net
http://www.qsl.net/k0bx
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From wa4bhk@barnwellsc.com  Fri Jul 13 16:16:12 2001
From: wa4bhk@barnwellsc.com (Matheson, Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:16:12 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rotator and Mast wanted
Message-ID: <001201c10bae$c19a1440$217f4fd8@wa4bhk>


I'm looking for a used Hy-Gain T-2X or Ham-IV rotator.  I also need a 12 ft
to 15 ft 2 inch mast within driving distance of SC.  If anyone has either of
these items for sale, please e-mail me.

Thanks,

Lawrence, WA4BHK  (wa4bhk@barnwellsc.com)


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From n3rr@erols.com  Fri Jul 13 15:21:21 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:21:21 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tennadyne T7 DB Gain Question
In-Reply-To: <20010713150213.22246.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPEEOMCCAA.n3rr@erols.com>


Joe,

dBd is "gain over a dipole".

"Real gain", as you call it, has no meaning.  Each person defines "real
gain" in their own terms.

For horizontal antennas, you would ADD approximately 7 - 7.5 dB to the dBd
figure to get dBi, the gain over an isotropic source at the same height.

There is an excellent discussion on this subject in the Force12 catalog
which is downloadable from their website: http://www.force12inc.com/

see: http://force12inc.com/F12-ant-specs-r31.htm

Bill, N3RR

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of k0bx@qsl.net
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 3:02 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tennadyne T7 DB Gain Question



I am looking to replace my Hygain DB10/15 Dualband beam with a
Tennadyne T7 18-33 MHZ log.  It would be located under my Hygain
204BA (20 Meter Monobander).
On the Tennadyne website it give the gain figure as
"6.2 dBd"?  I am not sure what dBd is?  Should I subtract 3 from
the figure to get the real DB gain?
Anyone have this antenna and have a comment about it?
Thanks
Joe K0BX

k0bx@qsl.net
http://www.qsl.net/k0bx
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http://www.shopping.altavista.com

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From diverken@chaffee.net  Fri Jul 13 16:37:00 2001
From: diverken@chaffee.net (Ken Eigsti)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:37:00 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tennadyne T7 DB Gain Question
In-Reply-To: <20010713150213.22246.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010713093700.0075c974@pop3.norton.antivirus>


GM Joe,
I have 2 Tennadyne T-8's, one at home QTH and one at cabin rental QTH. Good
antenna and they do well. IMO they don't have great front to back, but that
works great in contests. When W0DC and W0BV came to operate we took 1st USA
in CQWW RTTY WPX in 2000 and I would guess 90% of the Q's were with the T-8
log at 50'.  As far as a comparison, I have a C3E at 50', almost exactly
the same height as a T-8 about 75 ft. away, and there is very little
difference in signal strength to DX. Have not noticed as much as 3 db
difference, unless some strange propagation circumstances.

It is pretty light and well constructed. I have had one up about 4 years
and the other one 2 years..no problems at this point. This is in the
mountains of CO. and we have no ice storms, earthquakes, tornados,
hurricanes, hail storms i.e disaster free location...just wind with tops at
50 mph.

I have no SWR over 2:1 on any band..

Chuck provides good support too and I would DEFINITELY talk to him about
stacking with 204ba.

Not familiar with T-7, why not T-8?

Hope this has been some help to you. GL 
73 Ken W0LSD

At 08:02 AM 7/13/01 -0700, you wrote:
>
>I am looking to replace my Hygain DB10/15 Dualband beam with a 
>Tennadyne T7 18-33 MHZ log.  It would be located under my Hygain
>204BA (20 Meter Monobander).
>On the Tennadyne website it give the gain figure as
>"6.2 dBd"?  I am not sure what dBd is?  Should I subtract 3 from
>the figure to get the real DB gain?
>Anyone have this antenna and have a comment about it?
>Thanks
>Joe K0BX
>
>k0bx@qsl.net
>http://www.qsl.net/k0bx
>Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!
>http://www.shopping.altavista.com
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
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>
>


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From n4kg@juno.com  Fri Jul 13 19:08:43 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:08:43 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tennadyne T7 DB Gain Question
Message-ID: <20010713.120949.-232925.0.N4KG@juno.com>


Bill,

I feel that your third paragraph is misleading and needs 
further clarification.  Specifically, dBi = dBd + 2.18 dB in
FREE SPACE. 

Over ground, ANY horizontally polarized antenna will pick 
up 5 to 6 dB GROUND  REFLECTION GAIN (6 dB over 
"perfect ground") which has absolutely NOTHING to do 
with the gain characteristics of the antenna.

This ground reflection gain is at the peak of the first lobe.
The peak angle depends of course on height above ground
in wavelengths.

Tom N4KG


On Fri, 13 Jul 2001  "Bill Hider" <n3rr@erols.com> writes:
> 
> Joe,
> 
> dBd is "gain over a dipole".
> 
> "Real gain", as you call it, has no meaning.  Each person defines 
> "real gain" in their own terms.
> 
> For horizontal antennas, you would ADD approximately 7 - 7.5 dB to 
> the dBd figure to get dBi, the gain over an isotropic source at the
same 
> height.
> 
> There is an excellent discussion on this subject in the Force12 
> catalog> which is downloadable from their website:
http://www.force12inc.com/
> 
> see: http://force12inc.com/F12-ant-specs-r31.htm
> 
> Bill, N3RR
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of k0bx@qsl.net
> Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 3:02 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Tennadyne T7 DB Gain Question
> 
> I am looking to replace my Hygain DB10/15 Dualband beam with a
> Tennadyne T7 18-33 MHZ log.  It would be located under my Hygain
> 204BA (20 Meter Monobander).
> On the Tennadyne website it give the gain figure as
> "6.2 dBd"?  I am not sure what dBd is?  Should I subtract 3 from
> the figure to get the real DB gain?
> Anyone have this antenna and have a comment about it?
> Thanks
> Joe K0BX
>

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From n3rr@erols.com  Fri Jul 13 17:46:55 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 17:46:55 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tennadyne T7 DB Gain Question
In-Reply-To: <20010713.120949.-232925.0.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPIEONCCAA.n3rr@erols.com>


That's right Tom.

Since, from the original question, I deduced that the questioner was not
that sophisticated, I referred him to the Force12 antenna spec URL which
goes into much detail on this.

Those of us who have modeled antennas for years and studied this subject
will not be confused.

You are correct in your comment, but it's all in the Force12 URL, so I gave
him the endpoints and referenced it.

Bill, N3RR


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of n4kg@juno.com
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 6:09 PM
To: TOWERTALK@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tennadyne T7 DB Gain Question



Bill,

I feel that your third paragraph is misleading and needs
further clarification.  Specifically, dBi = dBd + 2.18 dB in
FREE SPACE.

Over ground, ANY horizontally polarized antenna will pick
up 5 to 6 dB GROUND  REFLECTION GAIN (6 dB over
"perfect ground") which has absolutely NOTHING to do
with the gain characteristics of the antenna.

This ground reflection gain is at the peak of the first lobe.
The peak angle depends of course on height above ground
in wavelengths.

Tom N4KG


On Fri, 13 Jul 2001  "Bill Hider" <n3rr@erols.com> writes:
>
> Joe,
>
> dBd is "gain over a dipole".
>
> "Real gain", as you call it, has no meaning.  Each person defines
> "real gain" in their own terms.
>
> For horizontal antennas, you would ADD approximately 7 - 7.5 dB to
> the dBd figure to get dBi, the gain over an isotropic source at the
same
> height.
>
> There is an excellent discussion on this subject in the Force12
> catalog> which is downloadable from their website:
http://www.force12inc.com/
>
> see: http://force12inc.com/F12-ant-specs-r31.htm
>
> Bill, N3RR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of k0bx@qsl.net
> Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 3:02 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Tennadyne T7 DB Gain Question
>
> I am looking to replace my Hygain DB10/15 Dualband beam with a
> Tennadyne T7 18-33 MHZ log.  It would be located under my Hygain
> 204BA (20 Meter Monobander).
> On the Tennadyne website it give the gain figure as
> "6.2 dBd"?  I am not sure what dBd is?  Should I subtract 3 from
> the figure to get the real DB gain?
> Anyone have this antenna and have a comment about it?
> Thanks
> Joe K0BX
>

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From k3gt@pgh.net  Fri Jul 13 19:29:33 2001
From: k3gt@pgh.net (Bob Thacker)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:29:33 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Sleeving Masts
Message-ID: <002101c10bc9$c440d600$c54e1b3f@2lz3801>


Hello all,

Next project is to increase the antenna spacing on the crank up tower's
mast. Currently a TH11 is 6" above the tower top and a 402BA old HyGain 40
meter monobander is about 10' above it. Currently, there is some slight
degradation on the TH11's 15 and 17 meter bands resulting in a slightly high
(3.0 on 17 and 2.2 on 15...not too bad) VSWR.

The new antenna project calls for a Force 12 EF-30/40 to replace the HyGain
402BA. However, after discussions with Force 12 and this reflector, most
think that 12' spacing would lessen interaction between the antennas. So the
question is, without purchasing a new mast, how does one elongate the
current one? I have considered both internal and external sleeving methods
measuring about 3' for an 18" overlap. To accomplish the extra 2 to 3' in
mast length, the extension would be the same size as the current one. The
internal sleeving method appeals most since the antenna can be placed on the
mast at a lower level then slid up the mast into the 12' position.  The
current mast is 2" OD and .250" wall thickness. Any one tried this approach?

Thanks,

Bob, K3GT



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From lclarks@nc.rr.com  Fri Jul 13 20:29:26 2001
From: lclarks@nc.rr.com (Larry Stowell)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:29:26 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] sleeving Mast
Message-ID: <003e01c10bd2$213629c0$4d131918@larrywa2sry>


Bob wrote...

The new antenna project calls for a Force 12 EF-30/40 to replace the HyGain
402BA. However, after discussions with Force 12 and this reflector, most
think that 12' spacing would lessen interaction between the antennas. So the
question is, without purchasing a new mast, how does one elongate the
current one? I have considered both internal and external sleeving methods
measuring about 3' for an 18" overlap. To accomplish the extra 2 to 3' in
mast length, the extension would be the same size as the current one. The
internal sleeving method appeals most since the antenna can be placed on the
mast at a lower level then slid up the mast into the 12' position.  The
current mast is 2" OD and .250" wall thickness. Any one tried this approach?

Thanks,

Bob, K3GT

I would like to do the same if the reply's good be posted it would be most
interesting to me

thanks

Larry WA2SRY



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From prforbes@tbsa.com.au  Sat Jul 14 01:07:10 2001
From: prforbes@tbsa.com.au (Peter Forbes)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 10:07:10 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TowerTalk] RE: QUESTION ABOUT TENNADYNE plus 204BA
Message-ID: <20010714000710.531AF47807@tbsa.com.au>


Dear Joe (and the list)

>I am looking to replace my Hygain DB10/15 Dualband beam with a 
>Tennadyne T7 18-33 MHZ log.  It would be located under my Hygain
>204BA (20 Meter Monobander).
>On the Tennadyne website it give the gain figure as
>"6.2 dBd"?  I am not sure what dBd is?  Should I subtract 3 from
>the figure to get the real DB gain?
>Anyone have this antenna and have a comment about it?
>Thanks
>Joe K0BX

I have a setup similar to the one that you propose Joe and I would make the
following points:

(1) The directivity (and hence gain) will be slightly lower than your
DB10/15 on 28 and 21 mhz (at their design frequencies), but to all intents
and purposes, you will not notice the difference.

(2) The front to back on 10mx and 15mx will be slighly worse on the log,
when compared with the design centre frequencies of the DB10/15, but at band
edges, the log may well be better.

(3) In general, the front to back on the log will be worst at 18mhz (the
lowest design frequency) UNLESS the log has a SEPARATE close spaced
reflector added to the rear. 

(4) Take-off angle maximum(for the same height) will be the same on either
antennas.

(5) The SWR will vary upwards to about 1.8:1 at some frequencies on the log,
so you will need to provide some sort of matching, so as to preclude the
possibility of power reduction from the finals on the rig (assuming you are
running solid state).  If you are running a valve linear (or exciter) then
the tuning controls will cover that aspect, with minimum losses.

(6) You may have some frequencies where there are "RF hot" spots on the
feeder cable, depending on line length.  A good line isolator will help with
this, including making a coaxial choke coil up near the antenna.

(7)  There has been some discussion lately about the best place to put the
balun on a Tennadyne, but from a performance point of view, the effects are
marginal.


(8)  BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO DO IS AS FOLLOWS:

     On 18mhz, there is definitely interaction between the log and the
directors of the 204BA, causing all sorts of pattern interference,
especially from a front to back point of view.

I WOULD STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU ROTATE THE LOG AT 90 DEGREES TO THE
204BA AND MAKE THE SEPARATION AS LARGE AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN ON THE MAST.


(8)  While you are at it, give serious thought to adding two gamma matches
to your 204BA boom and feeding it for 30mx and 40mx via a separate feed
line.  In that way you can have rotatable antennas from 7 to 28 mhz on the
one tower.

With over 2000 band/countries on those frequencies, I can CERTAINLY
RECOMMEND SUCH A SETUP.



Cheers

Peter  VK3QI


With over 2300 BAND/COUNTRIES 



false reflection  >


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From mpride@us.ibm.com  Sat Jul 14 15:56:18 2001
From: mpride@us.ibm.com (Mark Pride)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 10:56:18 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Yaesu G1000 Rotor - Post lightening strike
Message-ID: <OF14A3C33B.21680DC7-ON85256A89.005182BD@raleigh.ibm.com>


Request some early analysis help from the TT team.

Recently my G1000SDX took a power line surge as a result of a lightening
strike.  Typically, when the rotor is disconnected, the indicator moves
clockwise.  With cables and rotor attached, and power applied, the
indicator goes counterclockwise.  This without pushing any control buttons.

Any early advise?  Source of the problem in the control box or rotor or a
shorted control cable?  Will no doubt go back to the factory for repair
under a homeowners insurance claim.

Regards,

Mark, K1RX


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From k0bx@qsl.net  Sat Jul 14 16:53:07 2001
From: k0bx@qsl.net (k0bx@qsl.net)
Date: 14 Jul 2001 08:53:07 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tennadyne T7 DB Gain Question Summary
Message-ID: <20010714155307.2797.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>


First I want to say thank you to all that replied to my question.  I got a real education and some very helpful information.

1. It is hard for me to believe that the T-7 antenna has a gain of 6.2dbd.  My Hygain 4 element monobander 204BA is only rated at 6.0 dbd.  So maybe I should junk the 204BA and get a T-8?

2. From the comments, it looks like the T-7 will work in my tower space.  It will work about as good as a TA-33jr as for as gain and FB.  This is about what I want and expect.  I will get the additions 17/12 meter bands which is a big plus.

3. There were a lot of very good comments.  But I do not have a bunch of money, I don't live on a big farm, and I don't have a big tower.  I just need a replacement antenna for the Hygain DB10/15. One that will fit in the same spot.

Thanks again for your comments.

Joe K0BX St. Louis

k0bx@qsl.net
http://www.qsl.net/k0bx
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From w5kp@swbell.net  Sat Jul 14 18:42:43 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:42:43 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Mast galvanizing
Message-ID: <00d001c10c8c$63e52180$8a21c1cf@jkdesktop>


Picked up the mast today. They did an outstanding job. No runs, drips, or
slag, even inside. A couple of cooling rack marks on the outside, other than
that a totally flawless job, and I'm a happy camper. Both TB-3's pass easily
over the entire mast with about 1/32" clearance the entire way. Whew...! I
could picture $100 or more to have a machine shop bore out the TB-3's if
this job went sour! My guess is the zinc is something less than 10 mils
thick, which although slightly thicker than I was promised, is just fine as
long as the TB-3's will slip over it.

Also picked up a couple of extra antenna/mast rigging loops from the local
rock climber's shop yesterday. These are 24" (48" of webbing with ends sewn
together) and are certified at 3000 KG, which I think is about 6600 lb. They
are a very tight weave, soft and supple, about 1" wide. Best part is they
were $3 each. They also had 4' and 6' available. I have been pleasantly
suprised by the reasonable cost of brand name webbing and carabiners at the
climber's shop here. Certified rope, however, is a bit pricey at $0.80/ft
for the big 12 mm Blue Water stuff (worth every penny) and of course less
for the 8 mm and 9 mm stuff. Following K7LXC's suggestions, I have built a
couple of double-tailed lanyards, one from 12 mm Blue Water (which is
slightly stiff and heavy, but hell for stout), and another a bit longer from
9 mm, which is significantly lighter, a nicer size to work with knot-wise,
and is still rated over 5,000 lb. I used screw-lock Black Diamond carabiners
for the center (D-ring) attachment, and the large size Black Diamond
auto-lock type for the tower hookup ends. The autolockers aren't cheap at
about $17 each, but are really easy to use one-handed (this is important),
and they instantly and positively lock up when you let the spring-loaded
gate go. Once they are locked, you CANNOT open them without deliberately
twisting the spring-loaded locking barrel 1/4 turn again first. The double
figure 8 knots K7LXC recommends work well, are as safe as knots can get, and
as a bonus are a piece of cake to properly tie. Point is, I feel safe as if
I'm in my easy chair when I'm clipped on using this stuff, and that's
important to me! Having finally collected some decent climbing stuff
together, I shudder looking back over the years at what I've seen folks use
for safety gear while climbing - including me! Thanks to Steve K7LXC for the
tips.

73, Jerry W5KP


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From mikerauh@ic.org  Sat Jul 14 19:53:37 2001
From: mikerauh@ic.org (Michael Rauh)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 14:53:37 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tower fall claims the life of Texas amateur
Message-ID: <F842VqKwRPQIWDO3hRD000025bc@hotmail.com>


This is from yesterday's ARRL Letter.  I appreciate all those who have 
posted on tower safety - the importance of this topic can't be 
overemphasized, in my book.  - Mike Rauh, NV7X

******************************

* Tower fall claims the life of Texas amateur: A fall from an Amateur Radio 
tower July 8 claimed the life of ARRL member Bob Smart, W5TBV, of 
Georgetown, Texas. Smart reportedly fell from his 75-foot tower while 
adjusting his beam antenna. His wife, Ellice, N5RRO, who had been assisting 
him from inside the house, came outside to find him on the ground. His 
climbing belt reportedly was not attached to the tower.--thanks to Phil 
Duff, NA4M

Material from The ARRL Letter may be republished or reproduced in whole or 
in part in any form without additional permission. Credit must be given to 
The ARRL Letter and The American Radio Relay League.

The ARRL Letter also is available to all, free of charge, from these
sources:

* ARRLWeb, http://www.arrl.org/arrlletter/. (NOTE: The ARRL Letter will be 
posted each Friday when it is distributed via e-mail.)
....
_________________________________________________________________
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From jamvet@bellsouth.net  Sat Jul 14 20:40:10 2001
From: jamvet@bellsouth.net (Milcarsky)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:40:10 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Simming pool Ufer ground
Message-ID: <000701c10c9c$ee44c3c0$8fd84cd8@pavilion>


I am currently building a new home and I plan to place a perimeter ground
around the house and this will also encircle the pool.  The pool is adjacent
to the house.

My contractor raised the question of whether I should connect the perimeter
ground to the rebar that forms the pool structure.  He says the rebar will
be tied together with wire. ( I doubt that I will be able to get in and
assure these are good electrical contacts though.)  Any thoughts?

Also, should we drive a ground rod or two into the ground at the bottom of
the pool and tie these into the rebar cage?

The QTH is Florida east coast, 3 miles from the ocean.  The ground is sandy,
fairly dry, and the water table is 30 to 40 feet deep.

Comments and suggestions will be appreciated.

Thanks,  Ed   KG4ARN




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From K7LXC@aol.com  Sat Jul 14 20:46:20 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:46:20 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rotator and Mast wanted
Message-ID: <123.1a85d38.2881fb8c@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/13/01 8:14:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
wa4bhk@barnwellsc.com writes:

> I also need a 12 ft to 15 ft 2 inch mast within driving distance of SC.

    This is a pretty meaningless. Since there are a bunch of SC counties with 
high windspeed ratings up to 105 MPH, mast selection is important. You need 
to determine the mast yield strength rating based on bending moment. 

    What's your county windspeed rating? What's your proposed antenna system? 
Spacing?

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Sat Jul 14 20:03:58 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:03:58 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Mast coatings
References: <CPEFKNIOLPDOBHEPLMKMKEIHCBAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3B50979D.8909125@easystreet.com>


Hi Eugene,

I just took down a steel mast that has been up since 1973 (28 years).  I bought this
mast so long ago that I don't know the alloy but I remember specifically asking for a
strong one . . . it could well be 4130.  Anyway it is 2 ich OD, 0.219 wall, 18.5 feet
long and weighs 84 pounds.  When I put it up, I cleaned it with paint thinner and
painted it with Rustoleum paint.  You have to remember this was 28 years ago and it was
the kind of Rustoleum paint that was available then . . . not paint-on galvanizing like
you can get now.  I also ran a thinner soaked rag through the inside of the mast to
clean all the oil and grease out of the inside.  After it dried out, I then ran another
rag, several times, saturated with Rustoleum through the inside of the mast to coat the
inside with paint.  Anyway, this mast looks great to me.  Yes, there is some surface
rust where the paint has worn thin over the years and some places where it has been
scratched but this only amounts to discoloration on the surface.  I plan to repaint this
mast and install it in a different tower.  This mast has a least another 100 years in
it, at least in my environment, which is rainy Oregon, inland from the Pacific Ocean
about 75 miles.

After this experience, I would never consider going through the trouble of galvanizing
it even though there is a galvanizer about 10 miles from here and I get sidemount
hardware and other stuff galvanized all the time so it would not really be a problem to
get it done.  I just don't think it is worth it under my circumstances, at least.  Your
environment may dictate a different course of action for you.  I plan to put some
pictures of this mast showing its condition after 28 years in the air on my web site.  I
will let towertalk know when the pictures are up and the URL to see them.

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

Eugene Jensen wrote:

> I have located 1/4 wall 4130N mast in Pa and don't want to go thought the
> heart burn of having it galvanized. I have some two part epoxy PPG
> industrial paint that left over from a HV switchgear building project that 3
> years later looks like the day it was painted. A nice bluegray (maybe hide
> new 80 Meter F12 Yagi :-). Battery Acid run off this stuff like rain water.
> Any thought on the doing it this way because I seem to remember powder
> coating was another way of doing it. Tx Gene K2QWD
>
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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From w2cs@ipass.net  Sat Jul 14 21:58:56 2001
From: w2cs@ipass.net (Gary J. Ferdinand  W2CS)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:58:56 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Simming pool Ufer ground
In-Reply-To: <000701c10c9c$ee44c3c0$8fd84cd8@pavilion>
Message-ID: <NABBJLEKJNKAMMJBPFJKKENBICAA.w2cs@ipass.net>


When I had a pool installed in NY (years ago), part of the electrical code
stated that the contractor had to bind the rebar around the entire pool with
one continuous length of wire and then ground that (I have long forgetten
the rules behind the actual grounding itself).  There were specially
designed clips/fasteners that assured good contact with this continuous wire
and the rebar, which was under the path around the pool, and the pool metal
surfaces themselves.

Your questions might have answers in the electrical codes.

73,

Gary W2CS
Apex, NC



| -----Original Message-----
| From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Milcarsky
| Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 3:40 PM
| To: TowerTalk
| Subject: [TowerTalk] Simming pool Ufer ground
|
|
|
| I am currently building a new home and I plan to place a perimeter ground
| around the house and this will also encircle the pool.  The pool
| is adjacent
| to the house.
|
| My contractor raised the question of whether I should connect the
| perimeter
| ground to the rebar that forms the pool structure.  He says the rebar will
| be tied together with wire. ( I doubt that I will be able to get in and
| assure these are good electrical contacts though.)  Any thoughts?
|
| Also, should we drive a ground rod or two into the ground at the bottom of
| the pool and tie these into the rebar cage?
|
| The QTH is Florida east coast, 3 miles from the ocean.  The
| ground is sandy,
| fairly dry, and the water table is 30 to 40 feet deep.
|
| Comments and suggestions will be appreciated.
|
| Thanks,  Ed   KG4ARN
|
|
|
|
| List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this
| summer? Call us
| for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting
| towers - up to
| 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
| HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
|
| -----
| FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
|
|


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From k4bet@bellsouth.net  Sun Jul 15 00:55:39 2001
From: k4bet@bellsouth.net (Paul McInnish - K4BET)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 19:55:39 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Simming pool Ufer ground
References: <NABBJLEKJNKAMMJBPFJKKENBICAA.w2cs@ipass.net>
Message-ID: <007301c10cc0$7c4279b0$6401a8c0@PawPawsPC>


Same here... we have had 3 pools put in over the last several years at
different locations (2 in GA & 1 in NJ) and codes required the entire rebar
cage be bonded around the circumference with one continuous length of large
copper wire, ground rods driven and tied to AC Utility ground.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary J. Ferdinand W2CS" <w2cs@ipass.net>
To: "TowerTalk" <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 4:58 PM
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Simming pool Ufer ground


|
| When I had a pool installed in NY (years ago), part of the electrical code
| stated that the contractor had to bind the rebar around the entire pool
with
| one continuous length of wire and then ground that (I have long forgetten
| the rules behind the actual grounding itself).  There were specially
| designed clips/fasteners that assured good contact with this continuous
wire
| and the rebar, which was under the path around the pool, and the pool
metal
| surfaces themselves.
|
| Your questions might have answers in the electrical codes.
|
| 73,
|
| Gary W2CS
| Apex, NC
|
|
|
| | -----Original Message-----
| | From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| | [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Milcarsky
| | Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 3:40 PM
| | To: TowerTalk
| | Subject: [TowerTalk] Simming pool Ufer ground
| |
| |
| |
| | I am currently building a new home and I plan to place a perimeter
ground
| | around the house and this will also encircle the pool.  The pool
| | is adjacent
| | to the house.
| |
| | My contractor raised the question of whether I should connect the
| | perimeter
| | ground to the rebar that forms the pool structure.  He says the rebar
will
| | be tied together with wire. ( I doubt that I will be able to get in and
| | assure these are good electrical contacts though.)  Any thoughts?
| |
| | Also, should we drive a ground rod or two into the ground at the bottom
of
| | the pool and tie these into the rebar cage?
| |
| | The QTH is Florida east coast, 3 miles from the ocean.  The
| | ground is sandy,
| | fairly dry, and the water table is 30 to 40 feet deep.
| |
| | Comments and suggestions will be appreciated.
| |
| | Thanks,  Ed   KG4ARN
| |
| |
| |
| |
| | List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this
| | summer? Call us
| | for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting
| | towers - up to
| | 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
| | HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| | www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
| |
| | -----
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| | Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| | Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| | Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
| |
| |
|
|
| List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
| for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
| 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
|
| -----
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| Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
|



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From n3rr@erols.com  Sun Jul 15 02:47:40 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 02:47:40 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] RE: [PVRC] Rotating Dipole for 80 meters
In-Reply-To: <000b01c10cc4$9e6c3720$1c274f0c@Karl>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPKEPFCCAA.n3rr@erols.com>


Karl,

I have a Force12 EF-180C that was an early model that I made several mods
to.
It's 85 feet tip-to-tip and has linear loading.

Since then, Force12 has incorporated most of the mods I suggested in
production (at least several of them).

I have a video tape of the mods I made and some info on the mechanics of it.
I sell the video for $25.00
Check out my website for info:  www.erols.com/n3rr

No, 40 meters will not work with these linear loaded models.

I would think if the separation is 10 feet or more, no problem, but F12 may
have an
answer from their testing.

BTW, my EF-180C is at 149 feet and WINS almost any pileup.  It's a great
antenna.

If you put up a 80M rotatable dipole, try to get it at least 100-120 feet in
the air.
The higher the better on 80.

73,

Bill, N3RR


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pvrc@qth.net [mailto:owner-pvrc@qth.net]On Behalf Of Amy &
Karl Oyster
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 12:24 AM
To: pvrc@qth.net
Subject: [PVRC] Rotating Dipole for 80 meters


If anyone has information about a rotating dipole for 80 meters, I would
appreciate hearing about it.  Am thinking about putting one up and have no
experience with them, so thought I'd ask for help.

One thing I'd like to know about an 80 meter rotating dipole, is whether it
is also useable on 40 meters.

Another is should one stack an 80 over a 30-meter rotating dipole, and if
so, how much separation?

Thanks in advance,

Karl, K1KO



---
Submissions pvrc@qth.net


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From eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com  Sun Jul 15 04:17:22 2001
From: eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com (Eugene Jensen)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 23:17:22 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Simming pool Ufer ground
In-Reply-To: <000701c10c9c$ee44c3c0$8fd84cd8@pavilion>
Message-ID: <CPEFKNIOLPDOBHEPLMKMEEJACBAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>


The reason is that if a live conductor was to come into contact with the
pool (IE) Water as in underwater lights it would cause the breaker to fault
and open. Its a NEC Code and the good quality jobs are CAD WELDED since
there is little chance of corrosion happening in a joint. GFI Breakers are a
different animal all together and they cause the breaker to open if they
detect as small as 3 mills leaking to ground. The cost is very small at this
stage and trying in your tower ground will help spread the strike energy
over a larger area. Gene K2QWD

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Milcarsky
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 3:40 PM
To: TowerTalk
Subject: [TowerTalk] Simming pool Ufer ground



I am currently building a new home and I plan to place a perimeter ground
around the house and this will also encircle the pool.  The pool is adjacent
to the house.

My contractor raised the question of whether I should connect the perimeter
ground to the rebar that forms the pool structure.  He says the rebar will
be tied together with wire. ( I doubt that I will be able to get in and
assure these are good electrical contacts though.)  Any thoughts?

Also, should we drive a ground rod or two into the ground at the bottom of
the pool and tie these into the rebar cage?

The QTH is Florida east coast, 3 miles from the ocean.  The ground is sandy,
fairly dry, and the water table is 30 to 40 feet deep.

Comments and suggestions will be appreciated.

Thanks,  Ed   KG4ARN




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From w5kp@swbell.net  Sun Jul 15 13:14:39 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 07:14:39 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Phillystran Big Grip instruction sheet
Message-ID: <002701c10d27$b9518e60$0520c1cf@jkdesktop>


I'm totally new to both grips and Phillystran, and will be be using them
both on a new 45G. Burghardt sent the grips and Phillystran with no
instructions at all for grip installation. Just in case anybody else needs
the instructions, I found this link to a set of PDF instruction sheets at
the Preformed Line Products website:

http://www.preformed.com/lit_online/elements/SP2806%20Phillystran%20DE.pdf

73, Jerry W5KP


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From n4vi@arrl.net  Sun Jul 15 15:47:32 2001
From: n4vi@arrl.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 08:47:32 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] bracketed Rohn Tower
Message-ID: <3B51AD04.A66BB07E@arrl.net>


Fellow Towertalkians:


As our house rebuild is nearing completion I am starting to look
seriously at putting in a 35-40' Rohn 25G house bracketed tower. 
Looking at the Rohn drawings leads me to a few questions:


1.  All of their drawings recommend using the HBUTVRO  Heavvy Duty
Universal House Bracket.

They do make two other models although the Heavy Duty does appear to be
more "heavy duty" by the drawing.  Anyone have any experience using the
other brackets? Their model numbers are: HB25(ABC)G  and HBU

2.  The plan is to use two brackets as specified by Rohn.  One will be
attached to the side of the building and the other will be attacked to
the Roof trusses (not roof overhang, etc).  This is detailed in Rohn
drawing # D850221 on page MS-28 of the Rohn Consumer catalog I recently
purchased.

My concern here is tower alignment.  Although the bracket has a
significant adjustable range, it appears to  be in discreet 6" steps. 
How accurately do I need to align the two brackets?  Assume the brackets
will be 12-15' apart.


Thanks es 73's


Chris, n4vi

P.S.  The load on the tower will be fairly low, probably C3-ss type load
(4.4 sq ft).

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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Mon Jul 16 14:32:10 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 09:32:10 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Effective Moment/K Force & Yaesu rotators
Message-ID: <1010616093211.JAB14888@gate.iterated.com>


On 7/11/01 5:04 PM, K7LXC@aol.com at K7LXC@aol.com wrote:

>    It's been my experience that the rotator is the weak link in the antenna 
>system. While towers and other hardware will last for 15 years and more, a 
>rotator has a practical service life of 6 or 7 years. 

Is it that the rotator's only function so long -- or do we hams grossly 
overload them?

I remember asking this question about Amplifiers on the CQ-Contest list 
some time ago. There seemed to be a big rash of amp failures, especially 
during contests. Why was that? Are they not built to function at their 
rated limits, or are we pushing them beyond their limits?

I rescued an AR22 rotator that had been outside for 15 years. I rebuilt 
it and deployed it for 8 more years. It was working great when I moved 
and subsequently sold it. But then, the largest thing it was asked to 
turn was an A3S and a 17ele 2M beam.

I recently acquired a Ham-M Series 5 that looks like it is from 1971. A 
bit of TLC, and I expect it to last another 10 years. But, I'm not going 
to ask it to turn a stack of 40m 4 ele beams, either. A single (small) 
tribander is enough.


Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Mon Jul 16 14:32:15 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 09:32:15 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Mast coatings
Message-ID: <1010616093217.JAD14888@gate.iterated.com>


On 7/12/01 8:34 PM, Eugene Jensen at eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com wrote:

>I have located 1/4 wall 4130N mast in Pa and don't want to go thought the
>heart burn of having it galvanized. I have some two part epoxy PPG
>industrial paint that left over from a HV switchgear building project that 3
>years later looks like the day it was painted.

How did you paint the INSIDE of the mast?

>Any thought on the doing it this way because I seem to remember powder
>coating was another way of doing it. Tx Gene K2QWD

Powder coating is one of the toughest finishes you can put on steel.

Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From K7LXC@aol.com  Mon Jul 16 16:13:25 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 11:13:25 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rotators
Message-ID: <e4.17d65966.28845e95@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/16/01 6:38:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, aa4lr@arrl.net 
writes:

> Is it that the rotator's only function so long -- or do we hams grossly 
>  overload them?

    Well, I'd say there's some of that but as far as US rotators go they have 
their own set of weaknesses. The CDE/Hy-Gain/MFJ rotators were designed in 
the sixties and their problems are well documented; i.e. indicator pot, weak 
ring gear, sticky brake, etc. 

    Designing an electrical/mechanical contrivance to do what we expect a 
rotator to do is challenging. In this new millenium we're likey to see two 
new rotators that I'm aware of. Craig at CATS unveiled his at Dayton; it's a 
worm gear drive which is the way to go and is supposed to be in the $600 
range. Whether it (or the other one that seems to be similar in design and 
execution) makes it to market or not is yet to be seen. 

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From w5kp@swbell.net  Mon Jul 16 17:43:14 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 11:43:14 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Mast coatings
References: <1010616093217.JAD14888@gate.iterated.com>
Message-ID: <001401c10e16$696e7300$22d8da40@jkdesktop>


No heartburn, Eugene. Just take it to them and get your wallet out. :-)
Mine came out great, would have been cheap per mast too if I had 4 or 5 of
them to do. Unfortunately there was a minimum charge to deal with, which
made a single mast about 3 times more expensive to do. I should have done
four and sold the other three to you guys. :-)  I think powder coating is
about as expensive as galvanizing, and I suspect  you'd ruin the powder
coating with U-bolts, saddles, and handling faster than you would mess up a
galvanized surface. My two cents worth.
73, Jerry W5KP



>
> On 7/12/01 8:34 PM, Eugene Jensen at eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com wrote:
>
> >I have located 1/4 wall 4130N mast in Pa and don't want to go thought the
> >heart burn of having it galvanized.


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From marc.wullaert3@pandora.be  Mon Jul 16 18:58:45 2001
From: marc.wullaert3@pandora.be (Marc Wullaert)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:58:45 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rotators
References: <e4.17d65966.28845e95@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c10e20$f668f320$3b9be0d5@pandora.be>


Are you talking about the RD-1800 from C.A.T.S.
Any pro's -contra's ?

Marc on4ma
73

----- Original Message -----
From: <K7LXC@aol.com>
To: <aa4lr@arrl.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 5:13 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rotators


>
> In a message dated 7/16/01 6:38:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
aa4lr@arrl.net
> writes:
>
> > Is it that the rotator's only function so long -- or do we hams grossly
> >  overload them?
>
>     Well, I'd say there's some of that but as far as US rotators go they
have
> their own set of weaknesses. The CDE/Hy-Gain/MFJ rotators were designed in
> the sixties and their problems are well documented; i.e. indicator pot,
weak
> ring gear, sticky brake, etc.
>
>     Designing an electrical/mechanical contrivance to do what we expect a
> rotator to do is challenging. In this new millenium we're likey to see two
> new rotators that I'm aware of. Craig at CATS unveiled his at Dayton; it's
a
> worm gear drive which is the way to go and is supposed to be in the $600
> range. Whether it (or the other one that seems to be similar in design and
> execution) makes it to market or not is yet to be seen.
>
> Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
> Tower Tech
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>



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From zigster@mediaone.net  Mon Jul 16 19:28:25 2001
From: zigster@mediaone.net (S. Markowski Jr.)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:28:25 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rotators
References: <e4.17d65966.28845e95@aol.com> <001a01c10e20$f668f320$3b9be0d5@pandora.be>
Message-ID: <3B533249.9B74F1F8@mediaone.net>


Can anyone share opinions on Prosistel (Big Boy) rotators?

Marc Wullaert wrote:

> Are you talking about the RD-1800 from C.A.T.S.
> Any pro's -contra's ?
>
>
> > worm gear drive which is the way to go and is supposed to be in the $600
> > range. Whether it (or the other one that seems to be similar in design and
> > execution) makes it to market or not is yet to be seen.
> >
> > Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
> > Tower Tech
> >
> >


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From K7LXC@aol.com  Mon Jul 16 21:58:33 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:58:33 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rotators
Message-ID: <9a.17159bba.2884af79@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/16/01 10:59:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
marc.wullaert3@pandora.be writes:

> Are you talking about the RD-1800 from C.A.T.S.

    I guess. I don't know what the nomemclature is. I doubt that he's got two 
models in the works.

>  Any pro's -contra's ?
>  
    Nobody's seen one working or used one yet so no one knows.

Cheers,    Steve     K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From lclarks@nc.rr.com  Mon Jul 16 22:16:19 2001
From: lclarks@nc.rr.com (Larry Stowell)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 17:16:19 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk]
Message-ID: <000b01c10e3c$8e8f09d0$4d131918@larrywa2sry>


  I received this back in June........

  Larry WA2SRY

  Prospective Customers :
   Thank you for your interest in our new RD-1800 rotator system. As you
know, we aim to produce a heavy-duty model to replace the failure-prone T2X
that many of you now own; and at a price cheaper than the high-end models
selling for over $1K. This has been a more involved project than I ever
dreamed of; but it's almost finished. In fact, the rotator itself is now
done, and the tiny flaws and bugs that some of you observed at the Dayton
HAMVENTION have all been eliminated.
   However, although the first batch of rotators is being assembled
presently; the units still cannot be sold until we get an interface box to
go between the rotator and your control. Since most of you have the
CDE/HyGain variety of controls; that interface is the one we have arranged
to build first. As you read this, our favorite circuit board designer is
still testing on that interface with one of our first completed RD-1800
rotator units.
   As some of you know, we had originally planned to put the interface
circuitry inside the rotator housing; but after much discussion and
consultation with several electronics experts we went with the separate box
idea instead. Continuing our long held policy of making products that are
extremely reliable, we decided that putting electronics up at the rotator
just wasn't the wisest way to proceed. So, we'll keep the electronics pieces
down inside the shack where they belong, just in case. I'm sure that
climbing your tower and opening up the rotator in the middle of winter to
replace a bad resistor/capacitor/relay wouldn't be your favorite project
either !  (and you can open the units on the tower for potentiometer
replacement, adding grease, etc.)
  So, that's the reason for the slight delay in making the finished units
available for sale.

   The best news is, we have received hints from our circuit board builder
that the initial batch of interface boards will be finished and available
for assembly into boxes by June 18, so we can plan to start shipping the
completed rotators sometime later that week.. Please remember though, that
even the best laid plans.......well, you know, things might go wrong so
please don't whine about another day or two's delay. And, at this point in
time, the interface for CDE/HyGain controls looks to be somewhat less than
$50, exact price still unknown. Other model interfaces might be higher due
to the smaller quantities built.

   So, we have decided to start taking orders for the units; with the
realization that shipping won't commence until at least the 20th of June. As
always, (unlike some companies in the past) our policy is to not charge your
credit card until one day prior to shipping. Checks/money orders are cashed
up to a week in advance so they have time to clear before shipping. Also,
after the initial batch is sold, it will be 3-4 weeks before the next batch
is completed.

   Remember, for current details on specifications and prices; please
consult our website page  http://www.rotordoc.com/sales.html .

  Thanks for your interest,
  Craig Henderson,
  C.A.T.S.




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From n4kg@juno.com  Mon Jul 16 23:07:43 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:07:43 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Sleeving Masts
Message-ID: <20010716.160746.-93273.7.N4KG@juno.com>


Bob,

The bottom line is that INNER Sleeving reduces the strength of
the mast by a LOT, assuming the same yield strength material
for the sleeve as the outer mast.

The maximum allowable bending moment for a circular tube
includes the factor (D^4 - d^4) where D is the outside diameter,
d is the inside diameter, and ^4 means raised to the 4th power.

Consider a 2 inch solid OD mast.  D^4 = 16
Then a 1.5 inch solid tube	  D^4 = 5.0625
And a 1.0 inch solid tube	  D^4 = 1.0

>From this we see that a 2 inch solid tube is 16 times stronger
than a 1 inch solid tube in terms of bending moment. 
A 1.5 inch solid tube is 5.0625 times as strong as a 1 inch solid tube.
A 2.0 inch solid tube is 3.16 times as strong as a 1.5 inch solid tube.

A 2 inch OD mast with 1/4 inch wall thickness can be thought 
of as a 2 inch solid tube with a 1.5 inch solid tube removed.
D^4-d^4 = 10.9375

A 1.5 inch OD mast with 1/4 inch wall thickness can be thought 
of as a 1.5 inch solid tube with a 1.0 inch solid tube removed.
D^4 - d^4 = 4.0625

>From this we see that a 2 inch OD, 1/4 inch wall tube is
10.9375 / 4.0625 = 2.6923 stronger than a 1.5 inch OD, 1/4 inch wall
in terms of bending moment.  Going to a SOLID 1.5 inch inner
sleeve still results in 10.9375 / 5.0625 = 2.16.  Not much benefit
for a whole lot more weight!

There is one factor in your favor if you *still* want to use an
inner sleeve and that is that the bending moment for the smaller
tube only acts over the length from the junction to the load, NOT
the full length of the mast above the tower.  You will still need to
address how to hold the inner sleeve in position across the junction,
unless you intend to add an inner sleeve that runs all the way down
to the rotor.

de  Tom  N4KG


On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:29:33 -0400 "Bob Thacker" <k3gt@pgh.net> writes:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> Next project is to increase the antenna spacing on the crank up 
> tower's
> mast. Currently a TH11 is 6" above the tower top and a 402BA old 
> HyGain 40
> meter monobander is about 10' above it. Currently, there is some 
> slight
> degradation on the TH11's 15 and 17 meter bands resulting in a 
> slightly high
> (3.0 on 17 and 2.2 on 15...not too bad) VSWR.
> 
> The new antenna project calls for a Force 12 EF-30/40 to replace the 
> HyGain
> 402BA. However, after discussions with Force 12 and this reflector, 
> most
> think that 12' spacing would lessen interaction between the 
> antennas. So the
> question is, without purchasing a new mast, how does one elongate 
> the
> current one? I have considered both internal and external sleeving 
> methods
> measuring about 3' for an 18" overlap. To accomplish the extra 2 to 
> 3' in
> mast length, the extension would be the same size as the current 
> one. The
> internal sleeving method appeals most since the antenna can be 
> placed on the
> mast at a lower level then slid up the mast into the 12' position.  
> The
> current mast is 2" OD and .250" wall thickness. Any one tried this 
> approach?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob, K3GT
> 

________________________________________________________________
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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Mon Jul 16 23:18:20 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:18:20 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] bracketed Rohn Tower
Message-ID: <1010616181820.SAA23271@gate.iterated.com>


On 7/15/01 10:47 AM, Chris Adams at n4vi@arrl.net wrote:

>
>Fellow Towertalkians:
>
>
>As our house rebuild is nearing completion I am starting to look
>seriously at putting in a 35-40' Rohn 25G house bracketed tower. 
>Looking at the Rohn drawings leads me to a few questions:
>
>
>1.  All of their drawings recommend using the HBUTVRO  Heavvy Duty
>Universal House Bracket.

Yes, that's the super-heavy-duty bracket designed for Rohn 25 and 45.

>They do make two other models although the Heavy Duty does appear to be
>more "heavy duty" by the drawing.  Anyone have any experience using the
>other brackets? Their model numbers are: HB25(ABC)G  and HBU

The HBU is the heavy-duty bracket for Rohn 25 and 45. The HB25 series are 
only for Rohn 25.

I'm currently in the middle of installing a bracketed tower using the 
HB25B's.

>2.  The plan is to use two brackets as specified by Rohn.  One will be
>attached to the side of the building and the other will be attacked to
>the Roof trusses (not roof overhang, etc).  This is detailed in Rohn
>drawing # D850221 on page MS-28 of the Rohn Consumer catalog I recently
>purchased.

You didn't specify the bracket height. Depending on the location of the 
brackets, they will be subjected to considerable force. My bracketed 
installation is 44' tall, with a mast to 48' topped with an A3S. The 
brackets are at 25.5 feet and 17 feet. 

By my rough calculations, the top bracket should see forces of about 500 
lbs in a 75 mph wind. The mounting location and bolts need to be able to 
distribute that force, as well as deal with lateral (twisting) forces. 
You may not be able to just bolt to a truss and leave it. You may have to 
add internal brackets to distribute the force in the structure.

>My concern here is tower alignment.  Although the bracket has a
>significant adjustable range, it appears to  be in discreet 6" steps. 

The HB25 series has a series of holes about 3" apart on the arms, and two 
holes on the bracket fixture. By  using one or the other set of holes, 
you can adjust the distance of the bracket about every inch and half.

>How accurately do I need to align the two brackets?  Assume the brackets
>will be 12-15' apart.

Very accurately. They will determine how straight your tower is.

For my installation, I have temporary installed a bracket at the 10 foot 
level. This is my reference point. Using a plumb bob, I spotted the 
location of the tower base and dug it out. I placed two joined sections 
in the hole, leaving me about 15 feet of tower up. This allowed me to 
accurately position the tower to be perfectly vertical, again using a 
plumb bob, before pouring the base.

When the concrete cures, I plan to stack two more sections of Rohn 25. 
This would be about 35 feet (actually, not quite), which is practically 
free-standing at 75 mph. (Just don't try to put any antennas on it) At 
this point, I'll climb the tower and attach the second bracket at 17 
feet. This assures the bracket properly aligned with the tower. Once that 
bracket is secure, I'll remove the bracket at 10', and install it at 25.5 
feet. Then I can finally stack the top section, add the rotator, mast and 
antennas.

The HB25 brackets allow a LITTLE adjustment laterally (along the face of 
the wall), but none going into or away from the wall. 

Frankly, I came up with this plan to climb the tower to install the 
brackets because I felt very unsafe At the end of an extension ladder up 
15 feet. I'll feel a lot safer strapped on to the tower with proper 
safety gear. I can't imagine trying to manipulate the HB25 brackets and 
install them while holding on to a ladder. If you insist on installing 
the brackets first, I suggest using a scafford or cherry picker.




Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From ford@cmgate.com  Tue Jul 17 01:15:56 2001
From: ford@cmgate.com (Ford Peterson)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:15:56 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch
Message-ID: <001501c10e55$a75bb9e0$20ed83d1@office>


I'm building a full sized, base fed (insulated), 80 meter vertical antenna.
The design I am playing with uses a top hat to tune the lower portion of 80.
Removing the top hat tunes about 3850 or so.  This arrangement will give me
access to all the band without reactive elements at the base of the tower.

I am looking for ideas.  The top hat is two pieces of 1/2" copper pipe cut
to 4' and mounted as an X shape.  I want to be able to switch this in and
out using a bias tee on the feedline.  The trouble is the switch.  I suspect
that there are substantial voltages at this point of the antenna (duh!) and
am concerned about flashover.  A latching relay would work best but I may
have to fabricate something in the shop to accomplish this.  Near as I can
figure, there is no such thing as a HP latching relay (MSC, Newark, etc.).

Perhaps I don't understand the problem.  The potential accross the switch is
the difference between the top of the radiator and the hat, which by itself
has very little capacitance.  Will any relay do in this mode?

I can't be re-inventing the wheel here.  Anybody else tried this?  What
worked for the switch?

Ford-N0FP
ford@cmgate.com




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From W8JI@contesting.com  Tue Jul 17 01:53:53 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:53:53 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch
In-Reply-To: <001501c10e55$a75bb9e0$20ed83d1@office>
Message-ID: <200107170057.f6H0vkd19960@paris.akorn.net>


> (duh!) and am concerned about flashover.  A latching relay would work best
> but I may have to fabricate something in the shop to accomplish this. 
> Near as I can figure, there is no such thing as a HP latching relay (MSC,
> Newark, etc.).

You are begging for problems. The relay is at a voltage point, and 
worse yet you have a vertical! 

The voltage can be as much as twice the voltage on a dipole at the 
end, assuming you have a good ground system. That means you 
could have the equal of what a dipole would do with 6 kW applied 
power!!

You can model this on EZnec by putting a second source at the 
top just below the hat and setting that source to zero current. That 
causes the source to appear as an infinite impedance, like an open 
switch. A look at the source data will tell the voltage that would 
appear across an open connection at that point in the antenna. 

I did this quickly using a 2" diameter vertical, and there was about 
3 kV RMS with 2 kW of applied power. That's over 4kV peak 
voltage, that you'd have to handle in all kinds of weather. You're 
talking HV vacuum latching relays, which use a very high pull-in 
current. You have to be sure the path across any insulation, when 
wet, would remain open. 

The voltage would increase with a thinner vertical near the top, and 
decrease with a thicker vertical near the top. A fat antenna near 
ground tapering to a thin antenna at top would produce even more 
voltage.

I'd switch a series inductance in at the base. There would be no 
measurable decrease in efficiency, and switching would be easier!!

73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From hrg@cifnet.com  Tue Jul 17 02:15:34 2001
From: hrg@cifnet.com (Mike D.)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:15:34 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Chicago - Presentation on Legal aspects of tower/antenna installations
In-Reply-To: <001501c10e55$a75bb9e0$20ed83d1@office>
Message-ID: <000b01c10e5d$fa7b0c40$132dbbd0@bozo>


Metro Amateur Radio Club (MAC) invites you to attend our August meeting.
Visit the MAC website at http://www.qsl.net/mac


Program Description

Amateur Radio and the Law - Jim O'Connell, W9WU ARRL Volunteer Counsel 

"Getting it up and keeping it up (antennas that is!)" A presentation on
legal issues of interest to hams. Learn how to avoid restrictive covenants,
present your case for a tower permit, and hear about the latest court
rulings on RFI and towers. Jim O'Connell moderated the legal forum at the
Dayton 2001 Hamvention.


Meeting Date & Location

Wednesday, August 1, 2001, 7:30 P.M.
Lincolnwood Village Hall
6900 N. Lincoln Ave.
Lincolnwood, IL 60712
(park in back and enter building near radio tower)

Please direct questions to [mailto:mac@qsl.net]	



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From w7ti@dslextreme.com  Tue Jul 17 03:12:37 2001
From: w7ti@dslextreme.com (Bill Turner)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:12:37 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch
In-Reply-To: <200107170057.f6H0vkd19960@paris.akorn.net>
References: <001501c10e55$a75bb9e0$20ed83d1@office> <200107170057.f6H0vkd19960@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <co77ltgjongru0veu3v0ju6orqram9r9dv@4ax.com>


On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:53:53 -0400, Tom Rauch wrote:

>I'd switch a series inductance in at the base. There would be no 
>measurable decrease in efficiency, and switching would be easier!!

_________________________________________________________

At my former QTH I had a full size 80 meter vertical with a
motorized roller inductor at the base and it worked fine.  It was
in the circuit at all times, set for essentially zero inductance
at 4000 kHz and roll in whatever was needed for lower in the
band.  This doesn't take much of a coil - a few microhenrys as I
recall and being at the base, the voltage is low and easy to
handle.

Much easier than what you're trying to do, IMO.

73, Bill W7TI

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From k3nd@yahoo.com  Tue Jul 17 12:32:20 2001
From: k3nd@yahoo.com (GALE STEWARD)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 04:32:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch
In-Reply-To: <co77ltgjongru0veu3v0ju6orqram9r9dv@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20010717113220.74748.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>


I agree 100%.  My 80M top loaded vertical is "long" in
the SSB portion of the band so a single series
capacitor yields a 1:1 match at 3790.  An L-network
(one cap, one coil) gives a 1:1 match at 3510.  These
are switched with a pair of relays.  Very simple and
reliable.

73, Stew  K3ND


> 
> On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:53:53 -0400, Tom Rauch wrote:
> 
> >I'd switch a series inductance in at the base.
> There would be no 
> >measurable decrease in efficiency, and switching
> would be easier!!


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From epetek1@att.net  Tue Jul 17 14:08:05 2001
From: epetek1@att.net (epetek1@att.net)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:08:05 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Aluminum Masts
Message-ID: <20010717130806.GVFA3208.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net>


I'm looking for a source of 2" aluminum masts in the New 
York area- or nearby. Just putting up a relatively light 
tribander for second home location. Any ideas greatfully 
received- 73s Pete W2YG

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From ka2d@arrl.net  Tue Jul 17 14:28:09 2001
From: ka2d@arrl.net (Tom Carrubba KA2D)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 09:28:09 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Aluminum Masts
References: <20010717130806.GVFA3208.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <000701c10ec4$54e72d60$6401a8c0@p550>


Pete

Fleischer Tube Distrs Corporation
71 Saxon Ave
Bay Shore, NY 11706-7017
Phone: 631-968-8822

Ask for Steve.

GL - Tom KA2D

----- Original Message -----
From: <epetek1@att.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 9:08 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Aluminum Masts


>
> I'm looking for a source of 2" aluminum masts in the New
> York area- or nearby. Just putting up a relatively light
> tribander for second home location. Any ideas greatfully
> received- 73s Pete W2YG
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower
this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan
self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
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>


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From k6sdw@arrl.net  Tue Jul 17 15:15:55 2001
From: k6sdw@arrl.net (Eddy Avila)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:15:55 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rotator ID
Message-ID: <F89tMFaukyCKDkb9pPF00000696@hotmail.com>


I have what appears to be an old CD - HAM style antenna rotator made by 
Hygain designed to be installed inside a tower but I'm not sure of exact 
model so is there a way of telling which model this unit is by inspecting 
the bell case?

Thanks! 73....../ed
_________________________________________________________________
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From mikerauh@ic.org  Tue Jul 17 17:10:34 2001
From: mikerauh@ic.org (Michael Rauh)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:10:34 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Substitute thicker Phillystran?
Message-ID: <F67YF4sowZFieAvEH28000036ca@hotmail.com>


Hello All,

My tower plans call for 11,200 lb Phillystran for the top guys.  I've been 
offered 27,000 lb Philly.  Questions:

1. Do I need to pretension the 27,000 lb breaking strength Phillystran to 
2,700 lbs (10%)?

2. This will add 3X 0.707 X 1600 = 3400 lbs of base reaction to my system, 
right?  (Top guy is at 45 degrees).

3. The tower is 120 feet of Rohn 55G.  There are tree tiers of guys. I 
calculate the base reaction to be about 7500 lbs.  So if I increase to 
10,900 lbs what happens?  The 55G is undoubtedly good for the extra load at 
the base, but do I need to beef up the lower guys to hold the tower in 
column with the extra load? Or to put it another way, how does one decide 
how many tiers of guy are needed and what the loads on the lower guys will 
be?

Can anyone out there help me understand how this works?

Mike Rauh, NV7X
_________________________________________________________________
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From SRodowic@ix.netcom.com  Tue Jul 17 18:47:37 2001
From: SRodowic@ix.netcom.com (Steve Rodowicz)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:47:37 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rotator ID
In-Reply-To: <F89tMFaukyCKDkb9pPF00000696@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010717134556.02eadcf0@pop.ix.netcom.com>


Ed,

Rotor Doctor has an "Identifying Your Rotor" page: 
http://users.erols.com/shiacawn/rotors/n_ident.htm

73, Steve - N1SR

At 02:15 PM 7/17/01 +0000, Eddy Avila wrote:

>I have what appears to be an old CD - HAM style antenna rotator made by 
>Hygain designed to be installed inside a tower but I'm not sure of exact 
>model so is there a way of telling which model this unit is by inspecting 
>the bell case?
>
>Thanks! 73....../ed
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
>HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
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From SRodowic@ix.netcom.com  Tue Jul 17 18:52:28 2001
From: SRodowic@ix.netcom.com (Steve Rodowicz)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:52:28 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rotator ID
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010717134929.02df0330@pop.ix.netcom.com>


Sorry, I mistyped.

That's "Norm's Rotor Service".

"Rotor Doctor" http://www.rotordoc.com/ has "A History of the Bell Rotator" 
page which includes a lot of information regarding the differences between 
the rotors.

73, Steve - N1SR
......................................................................................................
Ed,

Rotor Doctor has an "Identifying Your Rotor" page: 
http://users.erols.com/shiacawn/rotors/n_ident.htm

73, Steve - N1SR

At 02:15 PM 7/17/01 +0000, Eddy Avila wrote:

>I have what appears to be an old CD - HAM style antenna rotator made by 
>Hygain designed to be installed inside a tower but I'm not sure of exact 
>model so is there a way of telling which model this unit is by inspecting 
>the bell case?
>
>Thanks! 73....../ed
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
>HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
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From molenda@buffnet.net  Tue Jul 17 19:45:41 2001
From: molenda@buffnet.net (molenda)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:45:41 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] light weight aluminum masts
Message-ID: <200107171853.OAA83886@buffnet4.buffnet.net>


I have a 16 foot aluminum mast I purchased from Universal tower to work with
my aluminum tower .  I have not yet put it up , but I hope to soon.  I paid
about 110.00 for it directly from Universal.  They have these in stock and
they ship fast.      John   KB2HUK

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From kr7x@gte.net  Tue Jul 17 20:54:40 2001
From: kr7x@gte.net (Hank Lonberg)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:54:40 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Substitute thicker Phillystran?
References: <F67YF4sowZFieAvEH28000036ca@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3B549800.21DC3D35@gte.net>


Michael:

My handi-dandi black magic spreadsheet tells me that if the guy point
spacing on Rohn 55g is 40',i.e., guy poinst at 40', 80' and 120'. The
maximum axial capacity of the 55g is 43,500 pounds. This is without any
moment or shear loads, just pure axial load capacity. Moment will reduce
this number due to combined stress effects.

The increase will most likely be ok as far as the tower section is
concerned. I would be careful about the capacity of the tower base
foundation, especially if it was designed for the smaller axial load.

Actually the number of guy points required is a function of both the
axial load, wind moment in tower section and distance between guy
points.

There is no need to beef up the lower guys because you are using a
larger guy higher up. In practical terms the added vertical load does
not increase and load required to keep the lower guy points in plumb.

Hope this helps...

Hank Lonberg P.E.,S.E. / KR7X





Michael Rauh wrote:
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> My tower plans call for 11,200 lb Phillystran for the top guys.  I've been
> offered 27,000 lb Philly.  Questions:
> 
> 1. Do I need to pretension the 27,000 lb breaking strength Phillystran to
> 2,700 lbs (10%)?
> 
> 2. This will add 3X 0.707 X 1600 = 3400 lbs of base reaction to my system,
> right?  (Top guy is at 45 degrees).
> 
> 3. The tower is 120 feet of Rohn 55G.  There are tree tiers of guys. I
> calculate the base reaction to be about 7500 lbs.  So if I increase to
> 10,900 lbs what happens?  The 55G is undoubtedly good for the extra load at
> the base, but do I need to beef up the lower guys to hold the tower in
> column with the extra load? Or to put it another way, how does one decide
> how many tiers of guy are needed and what the loads on the lower guys will
> be?
> 
> Can anyone out there help me understand how this works?
> 
> Mike Rauh, NV7X
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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From n4zr@contesting.com  Tue Jul 17 21:20:36 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 16:20:36 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Substitute thicker Phillystran?
In-Reply-To: <3B549800.21DC3D35@gte.net>
References: <F67YF4sowZFieAvEH28000036ca@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010717162036.009c2a60@mail.abs.adelphia.net>


At 12:54 PM 7/17/01 -0700, Hank Lonberg wrote:
>Actually the number of guy points required is a function of both the
>axial load, wind moment in tower section and distance between guy
>points.
>
>There is no need to beef up the lower guys because you are using a
>larger guy higher up. In practical terms the added vertical load does
>not increase and load required to keep the lower guy points in plumb.

But Mike raises an interesting question.  I'd always understood that the
purpose of pretensioning is to take enough of the sag out of a guy so that
it is operating primarily in elongation when wind forces are applied.  The
10% rule of thumb is usually cited for EHS steel, and I know it is also the
manufacturer's recommendation for Phillystran.  but even the biggest
Phillystran is much lighter, per foot, than even small EHS.  Doesn't it
follow that it really requires far less pre-tensioning to take a given
amount of sag out of a run of Phillystran guy?  Or is there something else
at work here that I don't understand?


73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From kr7x@gte.net  Tue Jul 17 21:46:18 2001
From: kr7x@gte.net (Hank Lonberg)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:46:18 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Substitute thicker Phillystran?
References: <F67YF4sowZFieAvEH28000036ca@hotmail.com> <3.0.6.32.20010717162036.009c2a60@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <3B54A41A.A8AF2003@gte.net>


Pete:

As far as I can determine there is nothing else involved. The rule of
thumb is just that a rule of thumb. It is probably a value erectors used
and it seems to work. There is not hard and fast specification for the
initial tensioning value just a recommendation (TIA/EIA-222-F) as to the
amount of pretension. Is 7% ok or how about 15%. I would judge both are
allowable. The creation of tension in the guys to minimize slap or
dynamic jumping and to facilitate the smooth transfer of the horizontal
load as it is applied to the guy system is what is intended. The
absolute value of the tension to be used is not critical. It is a
practical matter more than a hard scientific theory.

So if Mike wants to use say 5 or 6% for the larger phillystrand and it
behaves adequately then it is ok. Try it and if the tower jumps around
when the wind loads it up, tighten up the guys a little more to minimize
the erratic movement.

Hank / KR7X


 

Pete Smith wrote:
> 
> At 12:54 PM 7/17/01 -0700, Hank Lonberg wrote:
> >Actually the number of guy points required is a function of both the
> >axial load, wind moment in tower section and distance between guy
> >points.
> >
> >There is no need to beef up the lower guys because you are using a
> >larger guy higher up. In practical terms the added vertical load does
> >not increase and load required to keep the lower guy points in plumb.
> 
> But Mike raises an interesting question.  I'd always understood that the
> purpose of pretensioning is to take enough of the sag out of a guy so that
> it is operating primarily in elongation when wind forces are applied.  The
> 10% rule of thumb is usually cited for EHS steel, and I know it is also the
> manufacturer's recommendation for Phillystran.  but even the biggest
> Phillystran is much lighter, per foot, than even small EHS.  Doesn't it
> follow that it really requires far less pre-tensioning to take a given
> amount of sag out of a run of Phillystran guy?  Or is there something else
> at work here that I don't understand?
> 
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> No, no ... that's WEST Virginia
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
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From djl@andlev.com  Tue Jul 17 23:00:43 2001
From: djl@andlev.com (Dan Levin)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:00:43 -0700 (PST)
Subject: [TowerTalk] 3:2 unun detailed design?
Message-ID: <200107172200.SAA07681@swiftsure.cnchost.com>


Does anyone have a proven design for building 50:75 
ohm unun's for us with CATV hardline?  I'm looking 
for something that will handle full power all day 
long in a contest.  Details such as core size and 
material, wire size and insulation specs (did you 
tape the wire?), would be great.

Thanks much!

                ***dan, K6IF

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jul 17 23:05:54 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 18:05:54 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rotator ID
Message-ID: <11c.1cb032c.288610c2@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/17/01 10:47:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
SRodowic@ix.netcom.com writes:

> Rotor Doctor has an "Identifying Your Rotor" page: 
>  http://users.erols.com/shiacawn/rotors/n_ident.htm

    Actually this is from Norm's Rotor Service. Would've been helpful to have 
photos. 

    The Rotor Doc is Craig at www.rotordoc.com.

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Wed Jul 18 00:14:40 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 19:14:40 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] WTB Ham-type rotator
Message-ID: <35.17e84580.288620e0@aol.com>


Hello, TowerTalkians --

    I need a Ham IV or equivalent CDE/Hy-Gain/MFJ rotator (Ham III okay) in 
just about any condition - ready-to-go or rebuildable. I've got a control box 
but need the rotator. Let me know the price and condition. If the condition 
is unknown or really doesn't work, I'll naturally pay less. 

    As long as I'm at it, I'm also interested in similar TailTwisters. Tnx.

Cheers,    Steve     K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From w3qz@voicenet.com  Wed Jul 18 00:46:18 2001
From: w3qz@voicenet.com (Ron Cox)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 19:46:18 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] kt34xa owners
Message-ID: <3B54CE4A.FE050F07@voicenet.com>


Hello all,
            I have a 23ft length of 4130 laying next to the tower and
before I cut it I would like to know the best seperation for the kt34xa
and a 40m2. The old mast is 17 feet, 6 in and 11 out with xa 2 feet
above top of tower. I never heard these play so Id hate to just cut the
4130 the same length as the previous owner w3nx if anyone klicked with
him. All replys appreaicated.

73 Ron


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From rthorne@tcac.net  Wed Jul 18 00:49:30 2001
From: rthorne@tcac.net (Richard Thorne)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 18:49:30 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] kt34xa owners
References: <3B54CE4A.FE050F07@voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <3B54CF0A.87D2D7C3@tcac.net>


I don't think I would cut it at all.  You never know if want to stack some vhf stuff
above the 40m or require more spacing between the 34xa and 40m.


Ron Cox wrote:

> Hello all,
>             I have a 23ft length of 4130 laying next to the tower and
> before I cut it I would like to know the best seperation for the kt34xa
> and a 40m2. The old mast is 17 feet, 6 in and 11 out with xa 2 feet
> above top of tower. I never heard these play so Id hate to just cut the
> 4130 the same length as the previous owner w3nx if anyone klicked with
> him. All replys appreaicated.
>
> 73 Ron
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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--
73,
Richard Thorne
Amarillo, TX
Amateur Radio Station - N5ZC (Ex. KA2DSY, N2BHP, WB5M)
Remote Control Planes - AMA # N5ZC
Web Page: http://www.tcac.net/~rthorne/index.html



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From n0tt1@juno.com  Wed Jul 18 01:49:29 2001
From: n0tt1@juno.com (n0tt1@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 01:49:29 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Aluminum Masts
Message-ID: <20010718.020519.-161181.0.n0tt1@juno.com>


Not "local" but Texas Towers has heavy walled 2" AL 
tubing at  http://www.texastowers.com
Order on line or by phone and you won't even have to
leave your house!  

73, Charlie, N0TT

On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:08:05 +0000 epetek1@att.net writes:
> 
> I'm looking for a source of 2" aluminum masts in the New 
> York area- or nearby. Just putting up a relatively light 
> tribander for second home location. Any ideas greatfully 
> received- 73s Pete W2YG
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
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> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers 
> - up to
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> 
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> 

________________________________________________________________
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From w5rg@swbell.net  Wed Jul 18 04:31:45 2001
From: w5rg@swbell.net (w5rg@swbell.net)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 22:31:45 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Aluminum Masts
References: <20010718.020519.-161181.0.n0tt1@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3B550321.275E06AB@postoffice.swbell.net>


Pete..Texas Tower has the best price around and all sizes..I have used
2.125 tubing on 40 foot booms...just buy the next size smaller for a
splice...and it will come UPS...
..CHEAPER...FASTER....WORKS GREAT...73s Bob

  Maybe I should get a job there.....no its better if I stay home and
let the wife work....


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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Wed Jul 18 07:51:59 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 06:51:59 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Aluminum Masts
References: <20010718.020519.-161181.0.n0tt1@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3B55320F.D0A7DED8@gloryroad.net>


You guys are forgetting that anything longer than 7' has to go by
truck.
Add at least $100 if not considerably more to the price.

73 de Brian/K3KO

n0tt1@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Not "local" but Texas Towers has heavy walled 2" AL
> tubing at  http://www.texastowers.com
> Order on line or by phone and you won't even have to
> leave your house!
> 
> 73, Charlie, N0TT
> 
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:08:05 +0000 epetek1@att.net writes:
> >
> > I'm looking for a source of 2" aluminum masts in the New
> > York area- or nearby. Just putting up a relatively light
> > tribander for second home location. Any ideas greatfully
> > received- 73s Pete W2YG
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
> > Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers
> > - up to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> > HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
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> 
> ________________________________________________________________
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From gm3poi@btinternet.com  Wed Jul 18 14:22:07 2001
From: gm3poi@btinternet.com (Clive GM3POI)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:22:07 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Prop Pitch Hash
Message-ID: <000201c10f8d$0927e760$cfa47ad5@c7w0o7>


Does any one know the best Value components for curing PP hash from the six
brushes?. And are any of you using power diodes across the DC inputs?.
Regards Clive GM3POI


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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Wed Jul 18 14:22:15 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:22:15 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pointy Top / Mast Binding - Tips?
Message-ID: <1010618092216.JAA03848@gate.iterated.com>



I'm in the process of putting up my tower (after a 6.5 year wait). Last 
night, I obtained a 2" Al mast and fitted it in my 25AG3 top section.

I'm concerned that the fit is rather snug, and might cause binding under 
rotation.

Does anyone have any tips on the use of an AG3 top section and a 2" mast? 
Is some sort of lubricant suggested for the inside of the top section? 
Are there any other ways to avoid binding within the top section?



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From tduffy@sygnet.com  Wed Jul 18 16:11:04 2001
From: tduffy@sygnet.com (Tim Duffy)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:11:04 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Prop Pitch Hash
References: <000201c10f8d$0927e760$cfa47ad5@c7w0o7>
Message-ID: <3B55A707.A0F77ECD@sygnet.com>


Clive:

I am using .01 uF discs across the brushes and .1 uF large AC rated bypass (to the tower
ground) capacitors on each of the motor leads within 6 inches of the motor.

I have no hash as a result on any band.

73,
Tim K3LR


http://www.k3lr.com



Clive GM3POI wrote:

> Does any one know the best Value components for curing PP hash from the six
> brushes?. And are any of you using power diodes across the DC inputs?.
> Regards Clive GM3POI
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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From k3hx@juno.com  Wed Jul 18 16:24:24 2001
From: k3hx@juno.com (tttt ccccc)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:24:24 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pointy Top / Mast Binding - Tips?
Message-ID: <20010718.112439.-365587.0.k3hx@juno.com>


OM,

Here is the setup I used.

Had a 60' tower with the TH7DX right at the apex of the "pointy piece"
with an 1/4"

wall thickness aluminum mast  up from it holding a variety of other
antennae.

To "stiffen" the setup, I ran a liner of 16ga powder coated 1.5" "TV
masting" (OD

was about 1.75, it hammered right in) at the bottom.

I welded an automotive clutch "throw out bearing" to the top of the tube
that sticks

out of the "pointy part" (you will need to grind off the galvanized
coating and do the

welding outside as the fumes will do you no good.)  The dead weight of
the TH7

was supported by the throw-out bearing and as it was "pinned" to the
mast, the

weight of the other antennae were also supported by the bearing.  Made
fussing

with the rotator M U C H easier!!  To lube the mast, I drilled a hole in
the side of the

tube at the "pointy end" and tapped it (pipe tap) and installed a "ZERK"
fitting

(also known as a grease fitting.)  Plan carefully so you have this
fitting where it

is easy to get to!  I sealed the bottom of the mast with a wheel bearing
seal so the

grease would not drip.  Sorry, do not have the part numbers but I did get
the parts

at NAPA.  Worked fine.  I lubed the mast-tube with "Lubriplate"
boat-bearing grease

as it is supposedly water-resistant.  I suspect you would want to use
some synthetic

lube.  I lived in Ohio at that time and never had any trouble turning the
mast, even

in the bitter cold of winter.

You may have to try several auto parts stores to find one willing to
spend the time

for you  to try out various bearing seals and throw out bearings.

The throw - out bearing and the area where the weld was made and
surrounding

area was painted with aluminum Rustoleum and it held up fine for the 9
years it

was up.  

Good Luck,

73

Tim  K3HX


________________________________________________________________
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From k3hx@juno.com  Wed Jul 18 16:36:15 2001
From: k3hx@juno.com (tttt ccccc)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:36:15 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pointy Top / Mast Binding - Tips?
Message-ID: <20010718.113621.-365587.1.k3hx@juno.com>


OM,

Just remembered, I had to "ream out" the inside of the tube at the
"pointy-end"

I used a brake hone and lots of water.  Seems the galvanizing decreased
the ID

just enough to make the fit a bit tight.  The grease prevented rust.

If I were to "ream out" the tube today, I'd use a "flap wheel."  The
brake hone was

a S L O W process....HI!

73

Tim K3HX
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From molenda@buffnet.net  Wed Jul 18 17:06:59 2001
From: molenda@buffnet.net (molenda)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:06:59 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] light weight masts
Message-ID: <200107181614.MAA48126@buffnet4.buffnet.net>


This is the company info :   Universal Manufacturing Co.  43900 Groesbeck 
Hwy. Clinton Twp.  Mi  48036             phone:   810-463-2560    I ordered
the 16 foot aluminum mast from them last fall.           JOHN

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From w5kp@swbell.net  Wed Jul 18 17:04:15 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:04:15 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pointy Top / Mast Binding - Tips?
References: <1010618092216.JAA03848@gate.iterated.com>
Message-ID: <003501c10fa3$4bf02600$5a0ab8d1@jkdesktop>


Hi Bill,
Don't have any help to suggest if the mast is too tight a fit, but re the
lubrication:

Until I took it down last weekend, I had 30' of R25 pointy top up, with a
little lightweight (24 lb, 14' boom) trap tribander on it using 5' of heavy
wall conduit as a mast. Using tin snips, I made a long (about 12-14") cone
or "skirt" out of thin galvanized sheet metal. The big end was about 1"
bigger than the pipe on the pointy top, the small end fit the mast with some
overlap. I lubed the heck out of the mast with waterproof wheel bearing
grease (the blue Valvoline "less messy" stuff) when I installed it in the
pointy pipe. I recommend wheel bearing or a similar "stiff" grease that will
not run on 110 degree days. After installing the mast/Ham IV, I slipped the
cone down over the top of the mast until the inside of it was just short of
touching the top of the pointy pipe, and taped the hell out of the top of it
with Scotch 88T, thereby securing the top of the cone to the mast. Water
simply ran down the cone and dripped off. I took it down last weekend after
about six years and pulled it all apart, and the lube was still there, zero
rust, looked like I'd done it last week. Never had binding, even in 10
degree and icy weather. Zerk fitting was not needed, as no lube ever needed
to be added. I suppose there are fancier solutions, but this method was easy
and cheap to do, and extremely effective over the six years I used it.
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Coleman <aa4lr@arrl.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 8:22 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pointy Top / Mast Binding - Tips?


>
>
> I'm in the process of putting up my tower (after a 6.5 year wait). Last
> night, I obtained a 2" Al mast and fitted it in my 25AG3 top section.
>
> I'm concerned that the fit is rather snug, and might cause binding under
> rotation.
>
> Does anyone have any tips on the use of an AG3 top section and a 2" mast?
> Is some sort of lubricant suggested for the inside of the top section?
> Are there any other ways to avoid binding within the top section?
>
>
>
> Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
> Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
>             -- Wilbur Wright, 1901
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>


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From n4zr@contesting.com  Wed Jul 18 18:32:47 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:32:47 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pointy Top / Mast Binding - Tips?
In-Reply-To: <003501c10fa3$4bf02600$5a0ab8d1@jkdesktop>
References: <1010618092216.JAA03848@gate.iterated.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010718133247.009b3d80@mail.abs.adelphia.net>


All this puzzles me a little bit.  I have a 25AG3 pointy top with a 2" Rohn
galvanized mast - the top section was new 5 years ago when I put the tower
up.  The mast was a loose fit in the top section, and at 1 RPM lubrication
seemed unnecessary.  That has proved to be the case so far, despite the
usual assortment of wind and weather.

I'm wondering if maybe there isn't some galvanizing slag inside Bill's top
section, accounting for the tight fit.  Once it's removed, lubrication may
be an exercise in overkill.

73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From K7GCO@aol.com  Wed Jul 18 19:11:21 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:11:21 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Prop Pitch Hash
Message-ID: <f3.cfbe6a8.28872b49@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/18/01 6:25:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
gm3poi@btinternet.com writes:<< 
    Does any one know the best Value components for curing PP hash from the 
six
 brushes?. And are any of you using power diodes across the DC inputs?.
 Regards Clive GM3POI
  >>
This is a simple by passing problem and .1 ufd 600V ceramic disks work just 
fine.  Use one of the existing solder points on each Brush for one of the of 
the capacitor leads. What are the power diodes supposed to do?

I want to emphasize that every effort should be made to make sure no water 
gets around the spline shaft coming out of the housing recess.  I drill drain 
holes at the bottom of the recess in case some does.  There are holes in the 
housing case on the small PP Motors They must be sealed with a plug and 
epoxy.  The oil seals are 60 years old but are replaceable.  I will be making 
pictures available how I keep the water away from the output shaft.  Back in 
the late 40's I had a tapered cover over it but water can blow in under it.  
Water got in my first PP Motor and rusted some bearings.  The oil is drained 
out that is in the housings and all I had at the time was Vaseline for a 
grease.  I was able to remove, clean up the bearings and replace them.  
That's the only problem I've ever had of 8 of them.  They were mounted 
horizontally on the airplane motor shaft with a cover over them.  The 
original oil should be removed as it will slip by the oil seal at the bottom 
and get into the motor.

As I've mentioned before PP Motors don't have ALL the problems ALL the other 
rotators have.  The latest rotator thing I've been reading about is some K 
factor I think it was.  You don't have to worry about all this with a PP 
Motor.  The main problem with commercial rotators is they are under rated to 
last 5-7 years--on purpose.  Replacing a rotator high on a tower is a regular 
and expensive procedure for many and a big job often with a crane in 
particular in bad weather.  This is a major and regular expense which takes 
money that could be used for newer designs of antennas or coax that seems to 
go bad more often than it should.  If you buy one get one "1-2 sizes larger" 
than recommended by the Mfg for your antenna.  Perhaps you could extend your 
rotator trouble free time for 10-14 years?  From what I hear they seem to go 
bad just before or during contests in the winter.  Do you have any idea 
what's it's like not to have a single rotator problem or additional expense 
in over 50 years?  NOTE! I do recommend the PP Motor be taken apart and 
checked at least every 50 years or for each new owner.  I do have some that 
are due for a "Semi Century 50 Year Check" and perhaps refreshing the grease 
with a low temperature grease like "Ams Grease."  Who knows the grease could 
wear out with all the use it gets in a speeded up rotator?  I hate to rub it 
in--but I will.

If you take one apart and remove the Planetary gear remember this.  There is 
a "witness mark" usually a "0" on the top row of a double gear in the 
Planetary that all have to be "out" when inserted into the housing ring gear 
or you won't be able to get the bell gear to slip over it.  In a Medium PP 
Motor I worked on for a friend it had a tricky witness mark on it's 4 gears.  
It had "0's" and "2's" on the same gear 90 degrees apart for unknown reasons. 
 They had to be "alternated."  The Bell gear wouldn't go over it with all the 
"0's" or "2's" out.  That was the only one I've seen with the double witness 
marks.  

I was informed that many of these PP motors were made by Electrolux Vacuum 
Sweeper Co.  I had a Electrolux Vacuum Sweeper that has lasted over 50 years 
also.  The son of the Electrolux Sweeper Co Walter Groff was a gun friend of 
mine and I never knew this at the time while I was using the PP Motors.  He 
was a student of the greatest of all Double Action Shooters Ed McGivern as I 
was.  He told me that during the Depression he and his dad considered buying 
Smith&Wesson but felt the "anti-gun" feeling then was too high.  That was 
indeed unfortunate as the junk S&W has sold would not have happened.  

Another company who's ham gear has survived the "Test of Time" is Collins.  
It's the "Prop Pitch Motor Ham Gear of Today".  It still works and sells for 
high prices.  I examined the Collins Quality Assurance practices and although 
they weren't that of Deming they did the job.  They had an extensive program 
of testing parts before acceptance for one thing as did Rickover did for the 
Nuclear Submarine Program.  It was the "Art Collins Quality Assurance Program 
for Pride of Ownership, Performance, Design, Longevity and Retained Value."  
My Collins KW-1 and 75A1 have only had one part replaced in each one.  K7GCO

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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Wed Jul 18 20:27:53 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:27:53 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pointy Top / Mast Binding - Tips?
References: <1010618092216.JAA03848@gate.iterated.com> <3.0.6.32.20010718133247.009b3d80@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <3B55E339.2004F7C4@gloryroad.net>


Ice storms in Pittsburgh filled up the space with mother natures
creation. Unfortunately, it takes a long time in winter to melt any
ice.  Solution there was a replacement car U-joint boot extending down
over the mast.  They come split and have to be glued together.

Water is amazing stuff.  If it shrunk when near freezing like most
anything else, all lakes in winter spots would fill up with ice from
the bottom and almost never melt.  Fortunately, ice expands slightly
around freezing and thus floats. 

73 de Brian/K3KO
Pete Smith wrote:
> 
> All this puzzles me a little bit.  I have a 25AG3 pointy top with a 2" Rohn
> galvanized mast - the top section was new 5 years ago when I put the tower
> up.  The mast was a loose fit in the top section, and at 1 RPM lubrication
> seemed unnecessary.  That has proved to be the case so far, despite the
> usual assortment of wind and weather.
> 
> I'm wondering if maybe there isn't some galvanizing slag inside Bill's top
> section, accounting for the tight fit.  Once it's removed, lubrication may
> be an exercise in overkill.
> 
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> No, no ... that's WEST Virginia
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com

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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Wed Jul 18 21:22:23 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:22:23 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pointy Top / Mast Binding - Tips?
Message-ID: <1010618162223.QAA23314@gate.iterated.com>


On 7/18/01 1:32 PM, Pete Smith at n4zr@contesting.com wrote:

>All this puzzles me a little bit.  I have a 25AG3 pointy top with a 2" Rohn
>galvanized mast - the top section was new 5 years ago when I put the tower
>up.  The mast was a loose fit in the top section, and at 1 RPM lubrication
>seemed unnecessary.  That has proved to be the case so far, despite the
>usual assortment of wind and weather.

I'll keep that in mind.

>I'm wondering if maybe there isn't some galvanizing slag inside Bill's top
>section, accounting for the tight fit.  Once it's removed, lubrication may
>be an exercise in overkill.

I chipped out some galvanizing slag near the set screw holes, but the 
remainder seems pretty smooth (as hot dip galvanizing goes).

All my tests have been with the AG3 and mast in the horizontal position. 
I'll try it vertically next.



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Wed Jul 18 21:24:47 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:24:47 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pointy Top / Mast Binding - Tips?
Message-ID: <1010618162447.QAA23582@gate.iterated.com>


On 7/18/01 3:27 PM, alsopb at alsopb@gloryroad.net wrote:

>Ice storms in Pittsburgh filled up the space with mother natures
>creation. Unfortunately, it takes a long time in winter to melt any
>ice.  Solution there was a replacement car U-joint boot extending down
>over the mast.  They come split and have to be glued together.

Ooo! An excellent idea.

(As if ice were a factor here in GA)




Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From MWapner@Vetronix.com  Wed Jul 18 21:34:07 2001
From: MWapner@Vetronix.com (Mike Wapner)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:34:07 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tri-Ex LM470 Rotor Mounting Plate
Message-ID: <11CA8AEBA4D7D0119FFF00805F29965D02079B18@EXCHANGE_NT1>


I am in-process of installing an LM470 that didn't come with a rotor
mounting plate.  The tower has a heavy duty 2" thrust bearing mounted on the
very top plate.  Also, welded to the underside of this top plate is a 2"
I.D. sleeve with two set screws.  The underside sleeve appears to be stock
Tri-Ex.  There is also a movable triangular galvanized steel plate (1/8"
stock) that fits inside the top section.  This plate also has a 2" I.D.
sleeve with set screws that can be placed almost anywhere within the top
section.  It has small "ears" that catch the diagonal cross members to
prevent it from slipping down the inside of the tower section, but it is not
"attached" to the tower.
I suspect that this movable plate could be used for a rotor mounting plate,
assuming it was appropriately machined to mate to the rotor, but I am
uncomfortable with 1) the thickness of this plate being inadequate and 2)
the fact that it would be held in place vertically only by the weight of the
rotor and the mast pushing down on it.
My total vertical load (antennas & mast) will be approximately 275#, but
this will be taken by the thrust bearing.  The torsional load is
approximately 22 sq. ft. The rotor weight is yet unknown, but will be 45#
max.
Does anyone have a sketch of an "adequate" (at least 1/4" or 3/16" steel)
rotor mounting plate and that also shows how to rigidly affix it inside the
top tower section of a LM470?  I know that Tri-Ex originally offered one, so
I suspect it is documented somewhere.  I can easily fabricate one if I have
the drawing(s).  Thanks
Mike, K6QD



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From SavageBR@aol.com  Wed Jul 18 21:48:55 2001
From: SavageBR@aol.com (SavageBR@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:48:55 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pointy Top / Mast Binding - Tips?
Message-ID: <e0.17ac4acc.28875037@aol.com>


I just use a piece of inner tube rubber wrapped around the mast with the 
bottom of the rubber a bit lose over the tube of the top section. I hold the 
rubber around the mast with a hose clamp. I do the same over the thrust 
bearing just to keep water out of the bearing. It takes a little more effort 
to tailor the rubber over the bearing This seems to work fine.

Bruce  AA4Z 

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From satcom@lava.net  Thu Jul 19 01:31:31 2001
From: satcom@lava.net (stuart Browne)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:31:31 -1000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tri-Ex LM470 Rotor Mounting Plate
References: <11CA8AEBA4D7D0119FFF00805F29965D02079B18@EXCHANGE_NT1>
Message-ID: <3B562A63.D8D083B8@lava.net>


Mike,

That triangular movable plate with the ears is the rotor mounting plate.  On my LM470 I
have a Yaesu G-1000DXA mounted on it supporting a F12 C4XL. No problems in nearly two
years. I think that the plate is heavy duty enough to take most rotors.

Stu -- WH6H

Mike Wapner wrote:

> I am in-process of installing an LM470 that didn't come with a rotor
> mounting plate.  The tower has a heavy duty 2" thrust bearing mounted on the
> very top plate.  Also, welded to the underside of this top plate is a 2"
> I.D. sleeve with two set screws.  The underside sleeve appears to be stock
> Tri-Ex.  There is also a movable triangular galvanized steel plate (1/8"
> stock) that fits inside the top section.  This plate also has a 2" I.D.
> sleeve with set screws that can be placed almost anywhere within the top
> section.  It has small "ears" that catch the diagonal cross members to
> prevent it from slipping down the inside of the tower section, but it is not
> "attached" to the tower.
> I suspect that this movable plate could be used for a rotor mounting plate,
> assuming it was appropriately machined to mate to the rotor, but I am
> uncomfortable with 1) the thickness of this plate being inadequate and 2)
> the fact that it would be held in place vertically only by the weight of the
> rotor and the mast pushing down on it.
> My total vertical load (antennas & mast) will be approximately 275#, but
> this will be taken by the thrust bearing.  The torsional load is
> approximately 22 sq. ft. The rotor weight is yet unknown, but will be 45#
> max.
> Does anyone have a sketch of an "adequate" (at least 1/4" or 3/16" steel)
> rotor mounting plate and that also shows how to rigidly affix it inside the
> top tower section of a LM470?  I know that Tri-Ex originally offered one, so
> I suspect it is documented somewhere.  I can easily fabricate one if I have
> the drawing(s).  Thanks
> Mike, K6QD
>
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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From ford@cmgate.com  Thu Jul 19 03:54:22 2001
From: ford@cmgate.com (Ford Peterson)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 21:54:22 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)
Message-ID: <000901c10ffe$1dd9b000$0300a8c0@lab>


Many people have responded to my previous post.  All responses were quite
valid and appreciated--thank you.  The consensus was to simply cut it for 75
meters and base load it with a variable inductor arrangement (or variations
on that theme).

My quest for a top hat switch continues.  Why?  Because the thing models
like it will play great!

I'm building an 80/40 open sleeve vertical.  It will tune all of 40 at < 1.6
or so.  It will tune all of 80 / 75 if I can get this hat on and off the
tower.  The base loading is the most commonly used and possibly the easiest
to fabricate.  I live in Minnesota and the base will be 5' or 6' under the
snow in just 6 months.  Making a tunable roller inductor arrangement that
will work in this environment is no simple task either...

How about this option....

Mount a mercury tip switch at the top of the tower in a box on a cam-like
rotary arrangement (still designing that) and activate a latching
arrangement using some 1/8" Stainless cable running up the middle of the
pipe from the base of the tower.  I have these little 12 v solinoids that
will pull several pounds about 1/2".  These are details I will work out in
the shop.  My question is, have I simply created a very complicated
mercury vapor lamp?

The mercury switch is a vacuum.  The leads are about 1/4" apart as they
escape the envelope.  At 21 volts per thousanth of an inch (handbook #), a
1/4" gap should handle many KV.  (I only run 1KW max here at this time ~~
3KV).  I know nothing about the conductivity of mercury.  For all I know it
will explode in this environment!  A buddy of mine said "Hook it up and
watch it.  If it looks like a strobe light mounted on your tower, you better
shut it down."

I think I can master the mechanical stuff.  What about the switch?  Anybody
venture a guess as to how it will behave to RF as a top hat switch on my 1/4
wave monopole?

Ford-N0FP
ford@cmgate.com




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From n4kg@juno.com  Thu Jul 19 05:17:34 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 22:17:34 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pointy Top / Mast Binding - Tips?
Message-ID: <20010718.221909.-187705.5.N4KG@juno.com>


Rohn makes 5 different versions of the "Pointy Top" sections

The (original?) 25AG uses a 2 inch OD 16 gauge sleeve.
It is close in appearance to the 25AG-3.  Could this
explain the "tightness" reported by some?

The 25AG-1 uses a 1-1/4 inch "STD PIPE"

The 25AG-2 and 25AG-3 use a 2-1/4 inch OD 14 gauge sleeve.

The 25AG-5 uses a 2-3/4 inch OD 14 gauge sleeve
that does not extend above the top of the tapered legs.

Tom  N4KG



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From n4kg@juno.com  Thu Jul 19 04:56:06 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 21:56:06 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)
Message-ID: <20010718.221909.-187705.2.N4KG@juno.com>


What's going to keep the snow off the top hat / switch / 
top of vertical?

You really don't need a roller inductor at the base, just
switch a fixed inductor (which you pretune).  If you don't
like inductive loading, tune the vertical for 80M CW and
switch in a fixed series capacitor for the SSB portion of
the band.

Tom  N4KG

On Wed, 18 Jul 2001 21:54:22 -0500 "Ford Peterson" <ford@cmgate.com>
writes:
> 
> Many people have responded to my previous post.  All responses were 
> quite
> valid and appreciated--thank you.  The consensus was to simply cut 
> it for 75
> meters and base load it with a variable inductor arrangement (or 
> variations
> on that theme).
> 
> My quest for a top hat switch continues.  Why?  Because the thing 
> models
> like it will play great!
> 
> I'm building an 80/40 open sleeve vertical.  It will tune all of 40 
> at < 1.6
> or so.  It will tune all of 80 / 75 if I can get this hat on and off 
> the
> tower.  The base loading is the most commonly used and possibly the 
> easiest
> to fabricate.  I live in Minnesota and the base will be 5' or 6' 
> under the
> snow in just 6 months.  Making a tunable roller inductor arrangement 
> that
> will work in this environment is no simple task either...
> 
> How about this option....
> 
> Mount a mercury tip switch at the top of the tower in a box on a 
> cam-like
> rotary arrangement (still designing that) and activate a latching
> arrangement using some 1/8" Stainless cable running up the middle of 
> the
> pipe from the base of the tower.  I have these little 12 v solinoids 
> that
> will pull several pounds about 1/2".  These are details I will work 
> out in
> the shop.  My question is, have I simply created a very complicated
> mercury vapor lamp?
> 
> The mercury switch is a vacuum.  The leads are about 1/4" apart as 
> they
> escape the envelope.  At 21 volts per thousanth of an inch (handbook 
> #), a
> 1/4" gap should handle many KV.  (I only run 1KW max here at this 
> time ~~
> 3KV).  I know nothing about the conductivity of mercury.  For all I 
> know it
> will explode in this environment!  A buddy of mine said "Hook it up 
> and
> watch it.  If it looks like a strobe light mounted on your tower, 
> you better
> shut it down."
> 
> I think I can master the mechanical stuff.  What about the switch?  
> Anybody
> venture a guess as to how it will behave to RF as a top hat switch 
> on my 1/4
> wave monopole?
> 
> Ford-N0FP
> ford@cmgate.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers 
> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
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> 

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From rhodes@evertek.net  Thu Jul 19 05:36:06 2001
From: rhodes@evertek.net (Jim Rhodes)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 23:36:06 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)
In-Reply-To: <000901c10ffe$1dd9b000$0300a8c0@lab>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010718233211.0267d1e0@pop3.evertek.net>


Have you considered an arrangement to switch between alternate feedpoints 
at the bottom of the antenna. Insulate the botom 3.4 - 4 ft of the tubing & 
use relays to switch between the lower section while shorting to the top 
section or selecting the top feed & isolate the bottom section. I just love 
Rube Goldberg constructions like this. could gain you back that fraction of 
a dB that you would lose to inductive loading.

At 09:54 PM 7/18/01 -0500, you wrote:

>Many people have responded to my previous post.  All responses were quite
>valid and appreciated--thank you.  The consensus was to simply cut it for 75
>meters and base load it with a variable inductor arrangement (or variations
>on that theme).
>
>My quest for a top hat switch continues.  Why?  Because the thing models
>like it will play great!
>
>I'm building an 80/40 open sleeve vertical.  It will tune all of 40 at < 1.6
>or so.  It will tune all of 80 / 75 if I can get this hat on and off the
>tower.  The base loading is the most commonly used and possibly the easiest
>to fabricate.  I live in Minnesota and the base will be 5' or 6' under the
>snow in just 6 months.  Making a tunable roller inductor arrangement that
>will work in this environment is no simple task either...
>
>How about this option....
>
>Mount a mercury tip switch at the top of the tower in a box on a cam-like
>rotary arrangement (still designing that) and activate a latching
>arrangement using some 1/8" Stainless cable running up the middle of the
>pipe from the base of the tower.  I have these little 12 v solinoids that
>will pull several pounds about 1/2".  These are details I will work out in
>the shop.  My question is, have I simply created a very complicated
>mercury vapor lamp?
>
>The mercury switch is a vacuum.  The leads are about 1/4" apart as they
>escape the envelope.  At 21 volts per thousanth of an inch (handbook #), a
>1/4" gap should handle many KV.  (I only run 1KW max here at this time ~~
>3KV).  I know nothing about the conductivity of mercury.  For all I know it
>will explode in this environment!  A buddy of mine said "Hook it up and
>watch it.  If it looks like a strobe light mounted on your tower, you better
>shut it down."
>
>I think I can master the mechanical stuff.  What about the switch?  Anybody
>venture a guess as to how it will behave to RF as a top hat switch on my 1/4
>wave monopole?
>
>Ford-N0FP
>ford@cmgate.com
>
>
>
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
>HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
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>Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com

Jim Rhodes K0XU
jim@rhodesend.net


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From richard@karlquist.com  Thu Jul 19 06:16:25 2001
From: richard@karlquist.com (Richard Karlquist)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 22:16:25 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch
In-Reply-To: <200107170057.f6H0vkd19960@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBLKMEGLLAOKHJELEKMEFACCAA.richard@karlquist.com>


Tom brings up some valid points.  I have been using a 90 foot 
vertical with a top hat for several years.  It has latching 
vacuum relays at the 30 and 60 foot levels, so that I can make 
it look like a 30 foot vertical for 40, a 60 foot vertical 
for 80, and a top loaded 90 foot vertical for 160.  The voltage
across these relays is brutal, as Tom correctly points out. 
I have had some reliability problems.  I think that I really
should pot the relays because the terminals are too close 
together when condensation occurs, which seems to be optimum
when I am trying to work 75M long path in the morning.

I am planning to rebuild the vertical, and I am thinking
now of using pneumatically operated knife switches or something.
This eliminates the problem of getting DC current up to the relays.
I am thinking about looking into the actuators that are used in
cars to open and close air conditioning vents.  If anyone
has any bright ideas along these lines, I would be interested
in hearing about them.

Previously, I had the same vertical without relays.  On 80 meters,
I simply fed the whole thing as a voltage fed antenna.  Worked just
fine.  For 40, I just put up a separate little 30 foot vertical 
elsewhere.

Details of the antenna are on my web site:  www.karlquist.com

Rick Karlquist N6RK

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Tom Rauch
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 5:54 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com; Ford Peterson
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch

You are begging for problems. The relay is at a voltage point, and 
worse yet you have a vertical! 

The voltage can be as much as twice the voltage on a dipole at the 
end, assuming you have a good ground system. That means you 
could have the equal of what a dipole would do with 6 kW applied 
power!!

I did this quickly using a 2" diameter vertical, and there was about 
3 kV RMS with 2 kW of applied power. That's over 4kV peak 
voltage, that you'd have to handle in all kinds of weather. You're 
talking HV vacuum latching relays, which use a very high pull-in 
current. You have to be sure the path across any insulation, when 
wet, would remain open. 

73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 


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From W8JI@contesting.com  Thu Jul 19 10:08:44 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 05:08:44 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)
In-Reply-To: <000901c10ffe$1dd9b000$0300a8c0@lab>
Message-ID: <200107190912.f6J9Cbf09991@paris.akorn.net>


Hi Ford,

> The mercury switch is a vacuum.  The leads are about 1/4" apart as they
> escape the envelope.  At 21 volts per thousanth of an inch (handbook #), a

Voltage breakdown varies greatly with shape and rate of change in 
the electric field between the two conductors. I think the number 
you saw is for a uniformly distributed electric field and likely it was 
for some set of moisture conditions and doesn't allow for surface 
creepage. 

> 1/4" gap should handle many KV.  (I only run 1KW max here at this time ~~
> 3KV).  I know nothing about the conductivity of mercury.  For all I know
> it will explode in this environment! 

If it does explode, don't let it get into your water or food supplies. 
You'll be known as "Mad-as-a-hatter-Ford". 

Now that I think about it, maybe mercury exposure is more 
common than I realized in ham radio. Perhaps grabbing an 866 and 
swigging it down instead of an 807?

73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From i4jmy@iol.it  Thu Jul 19 10:54:36 2001
From: i4jmy@iol.it (i4jmy@iol.it)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:54:36 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)
Message-ID: <GGPSV0$IhSI3rGsH0aNNfRyhsQUjaL_5h6gpHr08ZKER@iol.it>


The many thousands KVs developed at the edge of a vertical aren't 
manageable other than with a big glass or porcelain insulator and a 
knife contactor, just likewise it's used to sectionalize along high 
voltage power lines.
To me, the phisical hat removal doesn't appear as a practical and 
easily manageable solution.

73,
Mauri I4JMY



> ---------- Initial message -----------
> 
> From    : owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> To      : <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Cc      : 
> Date    : Wed, 18 Jul 2001 21:54:22 -0500
> Subject : [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)
> 
> 
> Many people have responded to my previous post.  All responses were 
quite
> valid and appreciated--thank you.  The consensus was to simply cut it 
for 75
> meters and base load it with a variable inductor arrangement (or 
variations
> on that theme).
> 
> My quest for a top hat switch continues.  Why?  Because the thing 
models
> like it will play great!
> 
> I'm building an 80/40 open sleeve vertical.  It will tune all of 40 
at < 1.6
> or so.  It will tune all of 80 / 75 if I can get this hat on and off 
the
> tower.  The base loading is the most commonly used and possibly the 
easiest
> to fabricate.  I live in Minnesota and the base will be 5' or 6' 
under the
> snow in just 6 months.  Making a tunable roller inductor arrangement 
that
> will work in this environment is no simple task either...
> 
> How about this option....
> 
> Mount a mercury tip switch at the top of the tower in a box on a cam-
like
> rotary arrangement (still designing that) and activate a latching
> arrangement using some 1/8" Stainless cable running up the middle of 
the
> pipe from the base of the tower.  I have these little 12 v solinoids 
that
> will pull several pounds about 1/2".  These are details I will work 
out in
> the shop.  My question is, have I simply created a very complicated
> mercury vapor lamp?
> 
> The mercury switch is a vacuum.  The leads are about 1/4" apart as 
they
> escape the envelope.  At 21 volts per thousanth of an inch (handbook 
#), a
> 1/4" gap should handle many KV.  (I only run 1KW max here at this 
time ~~
> 3KV).  I know nothing about the conductivity of mercury.  For all I 
know it
> will explode in this environment!  A buddy of mine said "Hook it up 
and
> watch it.  If it looks like a strobe light mounted on your tower, you 
better
> shut it down."
> 
> I think I can master the mechanical stuff.  What about the switch?  
Anybody
> venture a guess as to how it will behave to RF as a top hat switch on 
my 1/4
> wave monopole?
> 
> Ford-N0FP
> ford@cmgate.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - 
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> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
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> 


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From tao@skypoint.com  Thu Jul 19 13:30:55 2001
From: tao@skypoint.com (Tod Olson)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 06:30:55 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)
In-Reply-To: <GGPSV0$IhSI3rGsH0aNNfRyhsQUjaL_5h6gpHr08ZKER@iol.it>
Message-ID: <ALEBLDFHBLGBHPOFNFOPOEIMDMAA.tao@skypoint.com>


There have been some interesting cautions put forth on this topic in the
past few days. Without no disrespect intended, I wonder if we haven't
identified most of the challenges to switching in a segment of a vertical or
switching in a top hat for a vertical.

Now if it could be done I suspect there would be several people who would
like to try it. That said, what don't we see if we can collect some ideas on
how it might be done to balance the very good observations on why the
proposed solutions might not be adequate.

I realize it is a lot harder to 'invent' a solution than to critique one,
but in this case we really need some 'invention' more than critiquing at
this point.

Tod, KØTO


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From jreisert@jlc.net  Thu Jul 19 14:25:56 2001
From: jreisert@jlc.net (Joe Reisert)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:25:56 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)
In-Reply-To: <000901c10ffe$1dd9b000$0300a8c0@lab>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010719092432.05550a60@mailhost.jlc.net>


Ford,

Have you contacted any of the people that used the Colatchco verticals in 
the 1980's? If I am not mistaken, they had a version that used a switch. 
Perhaps their experience would help.

73,

Joe, W1JR


At 09:54 PM 7/18/01 -0500, Ford Peterson wrote:

>Many people have responded to my previous post.  All responses were quite
>valid and appreciated--thank you.  The consensus was to simply cut it for 75
>meters and base load it with a variable inductor arrangement (or variations
>on that theme).
>
>My quest for a top hat switch continues.  Why?  Because the thing models
>like it will play great!
>
>I'm building an 80/40 open sleeve vertical.  It will tune all of 40 at < 1.6
>or so.  It will tune all of 80 / 75 if I can get this hat on and off the
>tower.  The base loading is the most commonly used and possibly the easiest
>to fabricate.  I live in Minnesota and the base will be 5' or 6' under the
>snow in just 6 months.  Making a tunable roller inductor arrangement that
>will work in this environment is no simple task either...
>
>How about this option....
>
>Mount a mercury tip switch at the top of the tower in a box on a cam-like
>rotary arrangement (still designing that) and activate a latching
>arrangement using some 1/8" Stainless cable running up the middle of the
>pipe from the base of the tower.  I have these little 12 v solinoids that
>will pull several pounds about 1/2".  These are details I will work out in
>the shop.  My question is, have I simply created a very complicated
>mercury vapor lamp?
>
>The mercury switch is a vacuum.  The leads are about 1/4" apart as they
>escape the envelope.  At 21 volts per thousanth of an inch (handbook #), a
>1/4" gap should handle many KV.  (I only run 1KW max here at this time ~~
>3KV).  I know nothing about the conductivity of mercury.  For all I know it
>will explode in this environment!  A buddy of mine said "Hook it up and
>watch it.  If it looks like a strobe light mounted on your tower, you better
>shut it down."
>
>I think I can master the mechanical stuff.  What about the switch?  Anybody
>venture a guess as to how it will behave to RF as a top hat switch on my 1/4
>wave monopole?
>
>Ford-N0FP
>ford@cmgate.com
>
>
>
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
>HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
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From W8JI@contesting.com  Thu Jul 19 14:44:08 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:44:08 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)
In-Reply-To: <ALEBLDFHBLGBHPOFNFOPOEIMDMAA.tao@skypoint.com>
References: <GGPSV0$IhSI3rGsH0aNNfRyhsQUjaL_5h6gpHr08ZKER@iol.it>
Message-ID: <200107191348.f6JDm1R04737@paris.akorn.net>



> I realize it is a lot harder to 'invent' a solution than to critique one,
> but in this case we really need some 'invention' more than critiquing at
> this point.

You may have missed it Tod, but two solutions were given and 
rejected.

1.) The suggestion was offered and a working example given (along 
with a history of actual problems) of using a latching vacuum relay 
or other vacuum relays. A 5kV or larger vacuum relay would have a 
safe margin if power is kept below a kilowatt or so. 

2.) The suggestion was offered of using a much more simple 
solution of switching a base inductor or series capacitor in and out 
and just leaving the hat connected in place (which would also be 
more efficient electrically).

Those were two simple practical working solutions....especially 
number 2 which would be the most simple system and the most 
rugged and efficient electrically...and they were immediately 
suggested. 
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From K3BU@aol.com  Thu Jul 19 15:26:33 2001
From: K3BU@aol.com (K3BU@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:26:33 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)
Message-ID: <d0.18a42be0.28884819@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/19/01 9:49:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, w8ji@akorn.net 
writes:

> 
>  You may have missed it Tod, but two solutions were given and 
>  rejected.
>  


Maybe I missed something, but what about using simple trap? Trap isolates or 
"disconnects" rest of the radiator above trap. They can be made efficient. 
The disadvantage is they are frequency specific, but for ham bands good 
enough. 

Yuri, K3BU

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From WW4T@aol.com  Thu Jul 19 16:05:56 2001
From: WW4T@aol.com (WW4T@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:05:56 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn hardware sizes??
Message-ID: <6c.d37c1e2.28885154@aol.com>


     Does anyone happen to know the leg bolt sizes of Rohn 45 ?   We have 
been given almost 200 feet of nearly new rohn 45 just to remove it.  
Inspection shows that in spite of a professional installation, the tower only 
has 1 set of bolts in each leg......ie: large bolt in some sections....small 
bolt in others......no idea as to why it was done this way,  but we want it 
all bolted together to safely disassemble.  
    Thanks in advance...
     Bob   '4t

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From shr@ricc.net  Thu Jul 19 16:43:04 2001
From: shr@ricc.net (W0UN--Signal Hill Ranch)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:43:04 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn hardware sizes??
In-Reply-To: <6c.d37c1e2.28885154@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.20010719093612.00ca0990@mail.ricc.net>


At 09:05 AM 2001-07-19, you wrote:

>      Does anyone happen to know the leg bolt sizes of Rohn 45 ?   We have
>been given almost 200 feet of nearly new rohn 45 just to remove it.
>Inspection shows that in spite of a professional installation, the tower only
>has 1 set of bolts in each leg......ie: large bolt in some sections....small
>bolt in others......no idea as to why it was done this way,  but we want it
>all bolted together to safely disassemble.
>     Thanks in advance...
>      Bob   '4t

Bob--

That was NOT a professional installation--I don't care WHO did it.

OLD Rohn catalog shows 3 ---- 5/16" dia x 2-3/8" long NC bolts
and 3 ---- 7/16" dia x 2-1/4" long NC bolts per Rohn 45 section.

Rohn has been using SAE bolts more recently with NF threads on
Rohn 25 -- not sure about 45.

--John  W0UN


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From ww5l@gte.net  Thu Jul 19 18:01:51 2001
From: ww5l@gte.net (Tom Anderson)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:01:51 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] RE: Base for TriEx WT51???
References: <200107111715.NAA15095@vegas.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <3B57127E.3E271687@gte.net>


Steve:
Tnx for the suggestion.  I've got a friend in Houston that has an extra base and I'll try to persuade him to let me borrow it for a while and have an extra base made.  I should have bought an extra base like he suggested when I bought the WT51 in 1993.

73 de Tom, WW5L



TowerTalk@contesting.com wrote:

> Posted By WB2WIK
>
> I have no clue about Tri-Ex's status, but I do own a WT-51 and have owned other W-51's over the years, so I've installed bases for them all over.  As you know, the tower's only 368 lbs and can be carried by two strong men, or four weaker men, or one guy and a good 4-wheeled cart (my general preference).  For less than $400 or $260, I could get a local welding shop to fabricate a base for me from scratch, and I've done just that.  If you bring the tower to the shop, they'll charge very little as they'll have a working "fixture" to build on, which will assure perfectly correct dimensions of the final result.
>
> If you can't, ask your local welding shop if they can send somebody over to wherever the tower is and make a good sketch of the bottom of the tower (spacing between the three legs, between the mounting holes, etc) because you need a base fabricated.  They only need some 1/4" thick steel plate and 3/4" or 1" re-bar, materials cost for a base that's 60" deep is only about $50, and labor is about $100.  I've paid $150 for W-51 bases from three different welding shops on the east and west coasts, it's never been a big deal.
>
> 73 de Steve WB2WIK/6
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
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> Forum on Contesting Online.
>
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From i4jmy@iol.it  Thu Jul 19 18:36:05 2001
From: i4jmy@iol.it (Maurizio Panicara)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 19:36:05 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)
References: <d0.18a42be0.28884819@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001801c11079$4e5d2920$abb72097@i4jmy>


A classical parallel resonant trap can be made resonant and isolating at a
frequency but shows inductive reactance at lower ones.
You can isolate the top hat on 40 with a trap, but then you can't use such
trap in a resonant vertical unless shortening the antenna (in this case the
top hat).
One might think to add a -jX reactance  over the trap, thus cancelling the
trap effect, but this will modifiy the original current distribution.
Not necessarily the new current distribution will be destructive with the
antenna performance and this could be an acceptable solution.

73,
Mauri I4JMY

----- Original Message -----
From: <K3BU@aol.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)


>
> In a message dated 7/19/01 9:49:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
w8ji@akorn.net
> writes:
>
> >
> >  You may have missed it Tod, but two solutions were given and
> >  rejected.
> >
>
>
> Maybe I missed something, but what about using simple trap? Trap isolates
or
> "disconnects" rest of the radiator above trap. They can be made efficient.
> The disadvantage is they are frequency specific, but for ham bands good
> enough.
>
> Yuri, K3BU
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>


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From tao@skypoint.com  Thu Jul 19 18:56:06 2001
From: tao@skypoint.com (Tod Olson)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:56:06 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)
In-Reply-To: <200107191348.f6JDm1R04737@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <ALEBLDFHBLGBHPOFNFOPCEJADMAA.tao@skypoint.com>


You are correct Tom, your solution #1 does deal with the 'how to
successfully switch" the top hat. I have no issue with the fact that
solution #2 does provide dual frequency operation, but I don't think it
addresses how to successfully switch a top hat.

Still, one out of two isn't bad and #2 does solve the underlying problem of
dual frequency operation with a single structure.

Tod, KØTO


-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Rauch [mailto:w8ji@akorn.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 7:44 AM
To: Tod Olson
Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)



> I realize it is a lot harder to 'invent' a solution than to critique one,
> but in this case we really need some 'invention' more than critiquing at
> this point.

You may have missed it Tod, but two solutions were given and
rejected.

1.) The suggestion was offered and a working example given (along
with a history of actual problems) of using a latching vacuum relay
or other vacuum relays. A 5kV or larger vacuum relay would have a
safe margin if power is kept below a kilowatt or so.

2.) The suggestion was offered of using a much more simple
solution of switching a base inductor or series capacitor in and out
and just leaving the hat connected in place (which would also be
more efficient electrically).

Those were two simple practical working solutions....especially
number 2 which would be the most simple system and the most
rugged and efficient electrically...and they were immediately
suggested.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com


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From tao@skypoint.com  Thu Jul 19 19:04:13 2001
From: tao@skypoint.com (Tod Olson)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:04:13 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch
In-Reply-To: <001801c11079$4e5d2920$abb72097@i4jmy>
Message-ID: <ALEBLDFHBLGBHPOFNFOPKEJADMAA.tao@skypoint.com>


See, already we are getting some additional creative ideas (Tom's vacuum
relay solution being credited as the first). I had forgotten about the fact
the we already use traps in horizontal antennas so we should be able to do
the same thing in vertical antennas.

I wonder if there are any more ideas?

One that crossed my mind just now is related to the 'knife switch' and
pressure control idea mentioned by Rick, N6RK. Since the high tension power
lines have insulated mechanical rods that go up the pole to switches at the
top, why couldn't Ford put together something like that.(PVC pipe?)
Presumably one might even be able to automate the mechanical action needed
to open and close the switch.

Tod, KØTO


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From K7GCO@aol.com  Thu Jul 19 20:34:30 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:34:30 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)
Message-ID: <8e.18978102.28889046@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/18/01 7:55:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ford@cmgate.com 
writes:

<< 
 Many people have responded to my previous post.  All responses were quite
 valid and appreciated--thank you.  The consensus was to simply cut it for 75
 meters and base load it with a variable inductor arrangement (or variations
 on that theme).
 
 My quest for a top hat switch continues.  Why?  Because the thing models
 like it will play great!
 
 I'm building an 80/40 open sleeve vertical.  It will tune all of 40 at < 1.6
 or so.  It will tune all of 80 / 75 if I can get this hat on and off the
 tower.  The base loading is the most commonly used and possibly the easiest
 to fabricate.  I live in Minnesota and the base will be 5' or 6' under the
 snow in just 6 months.  Making a tunable roller inductor arrangement that
 will work in this environment is no simple task either...
 
 How about this option....
 
 Mount a mercury tip switch at the top of the tower in a box on a cam-like
 rotary arrangement (still designing that) and activate a latching
 arrangement using some 1/8" Stainless cable running up the middle of the
 pipe from the base of the tower.  I have these little 12 v solinoids that
 will pull several pounds about 1/2".  These are details I will work out in
 the shop.  My question is, have I simply created a very complicated
 mercury vapor lamp?
 
 The mercury switch is a vacuum.  The leads are about 1/4" apart as they
 escape the envelope.  At 21 volts per thousandth of an inch (handbook #), a
 1/4" gap should handle many KV.  (I only run 1KW max here at this time ~~
 3KV).  I know nothing about the conductivity of mercury.  For all I know it
 will explode in this environment!  A buddy of mine said "Hook it up and
 watch it.  If it looks like a strobe light mounted on your tower, you better
 shut it down."
 
 I think I can master the mechanical stuff.  What about the switch?  Anybody
 venture a guess as to how it will behave to RF as a top hat switch on my 1/4
 wave monopole?
 
 Ford-N0FP
 ford@cmgate.com
  >>

Ford:  A rotary coil is a simple task and can be protected from 6' of snow in 
a wooden box or now days a plastic garbage pails etc.  I've been there and 
done that with both--in the snow.  The technique I described previously 
improves the match also over the whole band.  Verticals are normally a 36 ohm 
Z at best.  In the year 2001 why not step up your design and go for a better 
match?

Any switch at the top of the vertical can go bad and ice loading can inhibit 
any movement or rain get into it unless properly protected.  You either have 
to lower the tower or climb to repair it.  One antenna is not too hard to 
maintain in normal weather.  When you get several antennas you tend to look 
for "fool proof" designs.

There is another "fool proof" way using an open wire 1/4 wave stub adjacent 
to the tower or even inside it.  Use it as the switch to add a top load.  A 
top load has to be electrically insulated and properly mechanically supported 
at the top which is another design problem.  For simplicity use a tower 
resonant at 3.9 MHz and one leg of a guy wire about 10' long to an insulator 
as a "Slanting Load" instead of a Top Hat with more wind load.  Have the 1/4 
wave stub open at the bottom to reflect a short at the top.  Have a knife 
switch or wide spaced relay across it at the bottom to short it out and 
reflect a "Hi-Z Open" at the top.  All the moving parts are at the bottom.  
Since one leg is connected to the top of the tower, the tower or pole can be 
one leg of the 1/4 wave stub.  Just run a single wire adjacent to the tower 
spaced about 6" with good spacers like Delrin or the old stand by porcelain.  
You could vary the resonant frequency on SSB by adding "certain values of Xc 
or XL" in series with the short.  The 1/4 wave stub will invert the reactance 
at the other end.  Strive for reliability and longevity to increase operating 
time in snow or cold country--even with just one antenna.   

Best of All: Resonating the vertical at 3.6 MHz full length or permanently 
connected "Top or Slanting load" and using a series BC 3 gang variable in 
series driven by a selsyn or DC motor in a plastic pail (under the snow) will 
resonate the vertical by tuning out the inductive reactance all the way to 4 
MHz with a "progressively lower SWR"--the Rr (Radiation resistance) goes up 
and the Rloss stays the same.  (That's a mouthful)  Unfortunately increasing 
the Rr is never addressed in literature.  Resonating it at 3.6 MHz and using 
this technique (and other variations) is a concept that some critics just 
can't understand unless perhaps even if they actually tried it--which they 
haven't.  There is some special "RF Matching Magic" there ideal for 36 ohm 
verticals or even yagi's based on the most elementary of Basic Fundamentals 
101 that increases efficiency.  If someone needs a further explanation I can 
do so.  Full data and new concepts are being prepared to be published 
elsewhere. K7GCO

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From ford@cmgate.com  Thu Jul 19 21:27:43 2001
From: ford@cmgate.com (Ford Peterson)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:27:43 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80/40 Top Load Sleeve
Message-ID: <001c01c11091$44b68840$b0ed83d1@office>


Many have asked for dimensions.  Here goes.

THE TOWER
The model (NEC4WIN95VM) is based on Mininec 3 at this point.  I am trying to
avoid the need for messing with a full sized 25G tower when simple
components can be used.  I haven't built it yet (maybe this weekend) but I
harvested about 16 - 21' planks of 1.315" chain link fence top rail--the
stuff with swaged ends.  I can place two end-to-end in the air (41') in
about 1 minute by hand.  I intend to run 3 tiers of guys 90 degrees apart
(20' 40' 60').  The top will be 62.5'.  The mast support is very
light--possibly too light.  It is easy to work with and it is very very
cheap.  I figure I could make the center support out of garden hose with
enough guy supports.  One every 20' should be overkill with this stuff.

ADD 40 METERS
According to Gary Breed's (K9AY) patent on coupled resonators, the proper
spacing for the 40 meter sleeve (34') is 1.333' off the tower.  I intend to
use 2 pair of 14 awg bare wire, spaced 1.333' off the tower.  Each pair of
wires will be about 6" apart and placed on each side of the tower.  The
feedpoint on 80 and 40 (when resonant) models to 38 ohms with a decent
ground system.  A simple 1.4:1 transformer and I have a perfect match on
both bands (75 and 40).  Extending the center radiator to 80 meters will
either require tuning at the base or tuning at the top.  Because of the
small diameter of the elements, the bandwidth suffers somewhat (on 40 I use
a pair of wires spaced 6" - 8" apart on each side to extend the bandwidth to
the whole band).

ADD 80 METERS
When using small diameter elements, the match would have to be variable if
done at the base--making it mechanically more complex.  If done at the top,
the hat (2 - 4' long 1/2" copper shaped as an "X") will provide all the
bandwidth I need simply placing it on and off the tower.  A 3 position
switch (I'll be lucky to figure out a 2 position) will allow me to make the
hat in two pieces--selecting 3.6, 3.75, and 4 mHz.

DUMPSTER DIVING
I think I will take a trip to the Cadillac bone yard this weekend and snatch
me a door lock mechanism or a pneumatic heater control switch (nifty idea).
At this point the knife switch is winning in popularity here.  Perhaps
cable, perhaps rod, perhaps compressed air, I haven't decided yet.  When I
see it at the bone yard, I'll know.....

Thanks for the input guys.  This design is unconventional.  So what!  It's a
lot more fun this way than trying to simply copy everybody else's work.  If
I pull it off, the cost will be <$100 using new components.  If it doesn't
work, 88% of you guys that responded will be able to puff out your chests,
hold your heads high, and bark "I told you so...."  I'm going to build it
anyway....

Ford-N0FP
ford@cmgate.com




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From ve9aa@nbnet.nb.ca  Thu Jul 19 22:15:30 2001
From: ve9aa@nbnet.nb.ca (Mike & Coreen Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 18:15:30 -0300
Subject: [TowerTalk] Side by Side, Elliptical polarized yagis for 6m?
Message-ID: <003501c11097$f16dde20$ecc9a4c6@mike>


Hi Everyone,
Mike VE9AA here.
Brand spanking new to the list and I am going to fire off a question right
off the bat.

Has anyone tried side by side yagis, each slanted 45degrees, (tops pointing
towards one another), fed IN-PHASE
for elliptical polarization? (I don't want RHCP/LHCP)

I am primarily a 6m DXer so local tropo, EME, etc. usually does not interest
me much.

I'm thinking of a pair of the K6STI long 5 elements spaced 5/8wl apart up @
58' or so.

Have 5 "other" 6m antennas here, so wanna try something "new".

Mike VE9AA

Michael, Coreen & Corey Smith
(VE9AA,  VE9AAA & Baby)
271 Smith Rd
Waterville, NB
E2V 3V6
Canada


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From ve9aa@nbnet.nb.ca  Thu Jul 19 23:36:41 2001
From: ve9aa@nbnet.nb.ca (Mike & Coreen Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 19:36:41 -0300
Subject: [TowerTalk] (MORE)Side by Side, Elliptical polarized yagis for 6m?
References: <003501c11097$f16dde20$ecc9a4c6@mike>
Message-ID: <004701c110a3$48d7cb20$ecc9a4c6@mike>


Just as I hit "send" I remembered I DO have another option, rather than
building the array described below from scratch.
I currently have 2 x, 8el 6m beams on 30' booms, horizontally polarized,
stacked 14' apart, one above the other at 35'/49'.
I can spin the bottom one 90 degrees and using my BLU switching. I guess I
would then have:
L(vertical), U(horizontal),B(elliptical).

Has anyone tried T H I S??

Thanks,
Mike VE9AA
> Hi Everyone,
> Mike VE9AA here.
> Brand spanking new to the list and I am going to fire off a question right
> off the bat.
>
> Has anyone tried side by side yagis, each slanted 45degrees, (tops
pointing
> towards one another), fed IN-PHASE
> for elliptical polarization? (I don't want RHCP/LHCP)
>
> I am primarily a 6m DXer so local tropo, EME, etc. usually does not
interest
> me much.
>
> I'm thinking of a pair of the K6STI long 5 elements spaced 5/8wl apart up
@
> 58' or so.
>
> Have 5 "other" 6m antennas here, so wanna try something "new".
>
> Mike VE9AA
>
> Michael, Coreen & Corey Smith
> (VE9AA,  VE9AAA & Baby)
> 271 Smith Rd
> Waterville, NB
> E2V 3V6
> Canada
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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From n4kg@juno.com  Thu Jul 19 18:23:26 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:23:26 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)
Message-ID: <20010719.175529.-67221.0.N4KG@juno.com>


I know traps work reasonably well if the frequency ratio is
1.5 or more.  How well do traps work for a small ratio?
3.5 to 3.8 is only 1.1

Tom  N4KG

On Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:26:33 EDT K3BU@aol.com writes:
> 
> In a message dated 7/19/01 9:49:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> w8ji@akorn.net 
> writes:
> 
> > 
> >  You may have missed it Tod, but two solutions were given and 
> >  rejected.
> >  
> 
> 
> Maybe I missed something, but what about using simple trap? Trap 
> isolates or 
> "disconnects" rest of the radiator above trap. They can be made 
> efficient. 
> The disadvantage is they are frequency specific, but for ham bands 
> good 
> enough. 
> 
> Yuri, K3BU
> 
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> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
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From k9zm@frontiernet.net  Fri Jul 20 02:10:47 2001
From: k9zm@frontiernet.net (Greg Gobleman)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 20:10:47 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn hardware sizes??
References: <4.3.2.20010719093612.00ca0990@mail.ricc.net>
Message-ID: <005501c110b9$964ce320$55ab82d1@k9zm>


I know it's been said many times, but look inside the legs of the
tower sections when you get it down and see if your bolt kits are
inside in plastic tubes.  The so called installer may have used
what he had on hand not knowing the bolts were inside the legs.

Greg K9ZM


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From mikerauh@ic.org  Fri Jul 20 02:34:09 2001
From: mikerauh@ic.org (Michael Rauh)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 21:34:09 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Substitute thicker Phillystran?
Message-ID: <F225t0p5a2r8gPAAIwp000011c7@hotmail.com>


Reply to mikerauh@ic.org

Hank,

Thanks to you and all who posted on my question. I feel a lot more confident 
about trying out the thicker philly, and your advice has saved me about 
$600.

Maybe someday someone will write a theoretical treatment of the guyed tower 
for amateurs.  In the meantime I'm planning a trip to the OSU library to see 
what they have on steel structures.  I've found some elementary material 
about Euler columns and buckling theory.  I hope to learn more.

The Japanese have made the rig a commodity.  The big technical challenge in 
HF radio these days is the antenna.  I'm having the time of my life building 
mine!

Best Regards,

Mike Rauh, NV7X


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From n4zr@contesting.com  Fri Jul 20 03:04:16 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 22:04:16 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Substitute thicker Phillystran?
In-Reply-To: <F225t0p5a2r8gPAAIwp000011c7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010719220416.00950e30@mail.abs.adelphia.net>


At 09:34 PM 7/19/01 -0400, Michael Rauh wrote:
>
>Reply to mikerauh@ic.org
>
>Hank,
>
>Thanks to you and all who posted on my question. I feel a lot more confident 
>about trying out the thicker philly, and your advice has saved me about 
>$600.
>
>Maybe someday someone will write a theoretical treatment of the guyed tower 
>for amateurs.  In the meantime I'm planning a trip to the OSU library to see 
>what they have on steel structures.  I've found some elementary material 
>about Euler columns and buckling theory.  I hope to learn more.

Mike --Take a look at K7NV's web site for his Yagistress software.  There
is a very interesting article there on the behavior of guyed towers.

73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From n1lo@hotmail.com  Fri Jul 20 13:03:35 2001
From: n1lo@hotmail.com (Mark .)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 08:03:35 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Top Hat Switch (mercury)
Message-ID: <F234gtopWd7KKQpQq5p00001626@hotmail.com>



How about building a knife or rocker switch at the top that operates like a 
see-saw, and drop two ropes to the ground from it. Pulling on one rope 
closes the switch and connects your hat. Pulling the other opens the switch. 
Real simple, but it requires getting out there physically to do it. The 
switch could be a simple lever bar that touches a contact when it is rocked 
to one side.

Just a plain mechanical solution. Experiment, make it work, and have a 
little fun along the way.

--...MARK_N1LO...--

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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Fri Jul 20 14:19:08 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:19:08 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pointy Top / Mast - Not binding.
Message-ID: <1010620091910.JAH08167@gate.iterated.com>



Today I took out my AG3 top, lashed it up vertically, put the rotator and 
mast in place, and everything rotated just fine with no binding. 

I did manage to align the rotator base plate this way.

With an Al mast, I did see some scoring of the mast and the ends of the 
top tub. I may end up using a lubricant just to avoid more of the same.

Thanks for all your help!



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Fri Jul 20 14:20:30 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:20:30 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Question - Routing of Coax around Rotator Shelf
Message-ID: <1010620092032.JAA08299@gate.iterated.com>



I'm steadily working to put up my 44' Rohn 25 bracketed tower. While 
planning ahead, I ran across something I'm not entirely sure how to 
handle.

I know that you're supposed to route all cables INSIDE the tower. This 
works for me right up to the 40' level, were the standard Rohn AS25 
rotator shelf completely blocks the tower interior. In my case, I have an 
AG3 top, so there's still a couple of feet of tower to route the cable 
within.

How do others do this?

* Jump around the shelf, bringing the coax back in, and up the tower leg 
before the rotation turn loop where the taper stops. 

* Go outside shelf, leaving the coax outside the tower before the 
rotation turn loop.

* Starting the rotation turn loop at the shelf.



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From tfwagner@snet.net  Fri Jul 20 14:37:32 2001
From: tfwagner@snet.net (Tom Wagner)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:37:32 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Question - Routing of Coax around Rotator Shelf
References: <1010620092032.JAA08299@gate.iterated.com>
Message-ID: <00c801c11121$2233d620$0200a8c0@snet.net>


Bill --

The only reason I can think of to have the coax
inside the tower is for lightning reasons.  If this is
your rationale, then I would bring it outside the tower
at the rotor shelf, tape it to the outside, and start the
rotation loop near the top of the tower.  The lightning
reason to put it inside is that the tower forms a
faraday shield.  Nevertheless, you will have lightning
skin effects on the top part, and where the coax exits
the tower.  That's where you might get arc-over on
a strong strike.  I don't do it, but it's best to
ground the cables at the bottom of the tower, and also
put fairly large coax baluns there as well.  (See W8JI's
post recently on this.)

Re the loop, I sometimes take an old rubber hose &
slit it lengthwise to slip over the coax in the loop.  You'd
need to tape it.  If you remember to put the hose on
before you put the connectors on, you don't need to
slit it!  The hose takes the brunt of the abrasion - what
little there is.

73,
Tom Wagner - N1MM
Check out the N1MM Free Contest Logger at
http://pages.cthome.net/n1mm/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/N1MMLogger


----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Coleman <aa4lr@arrl.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 09:20
Subject: [TowerTalk] Question - Routing of Coax around Rotator Shelf


>
>
> I'm steadily working to put up my 44' Rohn 25 bracketed tower. While
> planning ahead, I ran across something I'm not entirely sure how to
> handle.
>
> I know that you're supposed to route all cables INSIDE the tower. This
> works for me right up to the 40' level, were the standard Rohn AS25
> rotator shelf completely blocks the tower interior. In my case, I have an
> AG3 top, so there's still a couple of feet of tower to route the cable
> within.
>
> How do others do this?
>
> * Jump around the shelf, bringing the coax back in, and up the tower leg
> before the rotation turn loop where the taper stops.
>
> * Go outside shelf, leaving the coax outside the tower before the
> rotation turn loop.
>
> * Starting the rotation turn loop at the shelf.
>
>
>
> Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
> Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
>             -- Wilbur Wright, 1901
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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From W8JI@contesting.com  Fri Jul 20 15:01:39 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:01:39 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Relay Selection
In-Reply-To: <F234gtopWd7KKQpQq5p00001626@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200107201405.f6KE5UR19130@paris.akorn.net>


There is something everyone should keep in mind with RF switches 
that are open, or have open contacts that are held at a different RF 
potential than the input, and connect to a structure up in the air.

There is, besides the RF potential and weather effects on arc 
paths, another often missed effect....sparks from distant lightning 
or precipitation static. The worse possible situation in the world is 
an open contact sectionalizing or isolating areas of an antenna.

If you have a relay in an antenna switch, precipitation static or 
lightning discharges in the distance can trigger a small spark 
across the contacts. If you happen to have RF applied, even 
modest power, the RF will sustain and increase the intensity of the 
plasma in the spark, and the result a few milliseconds later is a 
weakened or ruined relay.

This is one reason why antenna relays that live happily for years at 
many times the power suddenly fail in operation with melted-down 
contacts or carbon tracks or metal deposits across insulation, and 
why antenna relays usually need very large safety margins.

This is why (besides the concerns about creepage across 
insulation due to moisture or dirt) relays that switch antenna 
systems have to be carefully selected.

The procedure I use, besides selecting a component that greatly 
exceeds the expected voltage and current, is intentionally firing a 
tiny weak spark from a HV dc supply across open contacts or from 
contacts to ground while the relay is handling normal RF power. If 
that triggers sustained arc that ruins the relay, the relay will be 
unreliable in service.

As a matter of fact I ran into this last week, testing some new 
relays. I had a relay that handled over 15kW in series with a line 
(contact closed), and nearly 25kW when parallelled with a 50 ohm 
line. Running only 300 peak volts of RF, I fired a tiny spark 
(discharged a .01uF 15kV capacitor) across the contacts. The 
relay immediately sustained an arc and melted the open contacts! 

That's why antenna relays often have to be overkill, and can't 
contain materials that go into vapor or carbon track easily.      
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Fri Jul 20 14:31:19 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 06:31:19 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pointy Top / Mast Binding - Tips?
References: <1010618161457.QAA22012@gate.iterated.com>
Message-ID: <3B5832A7.E9A0771A@easystreet.com>




Bill Coleman wrote:

> On 7/18/01 2:34 PM, Stan or Patricia Griffiths at w7ni@easystreet.com
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Does the mast actually bind in the top of the 25AG3 itself alone or does
> >it tend to bind
> >only when inserted into the rotator?
>
> Well, I have the mast inserted into the AG3 in the horizontal position. I
> was just doing a test fit, and I don't have 15' ceilings in my basement
> to test it vertically.

Actually, you can do this test horizontally, like you are doing, just fine.

> > I have never known a 2 inch mast to
> >have a tight
> >fit in a 25AG3 unless it was due to too thick a galvanized coating on the
> >mast . . . not
> >a problem with an aluminum mast.
>
> It's not tight, it just seems to take a bit of effort to rotate.

Is there any chance that the 2 inch alumnum mast is really a little larger than
2 inches?  Or could it be slightly warped?

> I'll have to move it outside vertically, rig up the rotator and try it
> out a few times.

It ought to turn real easy without the rotator installed.  If it doesn't,
things can only get worse with the rotator in there.

> >If the snug fit occurs when it is put in the rotator, I would suspect that
> >the rotator
> >is not properly shimmed to center the mast or that the axis of the rotator
> >is not
> >parallel with the axis of the mast.  I can suggest ways to fix both of
> >these problems.
>
> One item I have to figure out is how to line up the rotator shelf so the
> rotator axis is parallel to the axis of the top.  Suggestions there would
> be helpful.

Early Ham-m rotators were made for 2 1/16" OD masts and binding occurred if you
did not shim them 1/32" from both points where the mast contacts bell casting.
I am not sure, but I don't think this was a problem with later Ham-Series
rotators . . .

> I was planning to leave the shelf loose, then put the rotator in place
> and have the mast position everything properly, then tighten the shelf.

That is the right idea.  Tighten rotator ubolts first, rotator to plate bolts
second, and plate to tower leg ubolts last.

> >I have never heard of anyone needing to lubricate a 25AG3.
>
> For my own piece of mind, I may coat the insides with LPS 2.

It can't hurt.

> Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
> Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
>             -- Wilbur Wright, 1901

Hope you get this worked out.  I simply never needed any of the complex cures I
have read about here on Towertalk . . .

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com




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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Fri Jul 20 14:50:27 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 06:50:27 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn hardware sizes??
References: <4.3.2.20010719093612.00ca0990@mail.ricc.net>
Message-ID: <3B583722.F918990F@easystreet.com>




W0UN--Signal Hill Ranch wrote:

> At 09:05 AM 2001-07-19, you wrote:
>
> >      Does anyone happen to know the leg bolt sizes of Rohn 45 ?   We have
> >been given almost 200 feet of nearly new rohn 45 just to remove it.
> >Inspection shows that in spite of a professional installation, the tower only
> >has 1 set of bolts in each leg......ie: large bolt in some sections....small
> >bolt in others......no idea as to why it was done this way,  but we want it
> >all bolted together to safely disassemble.
> >     Thanks in advance...
> >      Bob   '4t
>
> Bob--
>
> That was NOT a professional installation--I don't care WHO did it.

Wow!  I second that motion!

> OLD Rohn catalog shows 3 ---- 5/16" dia x 2-3/8" long NC bolts
> and 3 ---- 7/16" dia x 2-1/4" long NC bolts per Rohn 45 section.
>
> Rohn has been using SAE bolts more recently with NF threads on
> Rohn 25 -- not sure about 45.

On the shipment of 45G I got from Rohn about two weeks ago, the bolts were coarse
threaded.  I have bolt kits available for 45G in two types of plating.  Look at my web
page:

http://www.reprise.com/antronics/default.asp

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com




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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Fri Jul 20 14:56:20 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 06:56:20 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn hardware sizes??
References: <4.3.2.20010719093612.00ca0990@mail.ricc.net> <005501c110b9$964ce320$55ab82d1@k9zm>
Message-ID: <3B583883.E907E1CF@easystreet.com>


Rohn does ship tower bolts in the legs of 25G.   I have never known them to do this in
45G.

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

Greg Gobleman wrote:

> I know it's been said many times, but look inside the legs of the
> tower sections when you get it down and see if your bolt kits are
> inside in plastic tubes.  The so called installer may have used
> what he had on hand not knowing the bolts were inside the legs.
>
> Greg K9ZM




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From K7LXC@aol.com  Fri Jul 20 15:47:18 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:47:18 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Question - Routing of Coax around Rotator Shelf
Message-ID: <32.180cc8ad.28899e76@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/20/01 6:27:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, aa4lr@arrl.net 
writes:

> I know that you're supposed to route all cables INSIDE the tower. This 
>  works for me right up to the 40' level, were the standard Rohn AS25 
>  rotator shelf completely blocks the tower interior. In my case, I have an 
>  AG3 top, so there's still a couple of feet of tower to route the cable 
>  within.
>  
>  How do others do this?
>  
>  * Jump around the shelf, bringing the coax back in, and up the tower leg 
>  before the rotation turn loop where the taper stops. 
>  
>  * Go outside shelf, leaving the coax outside the tower before the 
>  rotation turn loop.
>  
>  * Starting the rotation turn loop at the shelf.
>  
    * Run them down a leg on the outside of the tower.

    While running the cables inside a tower is somewhat handy since the tower 
acts as a Farraday shield for lightning protection, IMO it's a real pain in 
the butt to put them inside and takes longer than simply running them 
outside. The vast majority of commercial towers have their cables down the 
outside.

Cheers,     Steve     K7LXC
Tower Tech

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From pbarkey@bsu.edu  Fri Jul 20 16:03:28 2001
From: pbarkey@bsu.edu (Barkey, Patrick M)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:03:28 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Question - Routing of Coax around Rotator Shelf
Message-ID: <21990C48AAC20F4686144CC4D026BD7101374513@EMAIL2.bsu.edu>


K7LXC wrote:

    While running the cables inside a tower is somewhat handy since the
tower 
acts as a Farraday shield for lightning protection, IMO it's a real pain
in 
the butt to put them inside and takes longer than simply running them 
outside. The vast majority of commercial towers have their cables down
the 
outside.

My reply:

If you live with your tower everyday, you will be thankful for the
extra time you took to put your control cables inside, rather than
outside, the tower.  You're gonna be banging a lot of stuff against
that tower for the next 20 years, and its just one less thing to
worry about.

Commercial practice isn't always so great to follow.  Go see what the
Polyphaser folks have to say about the commercially common practice
of not taking feedline all the way to the ground before routing it
into buildings for an example of another bad habit to be avoided.

   - Pat
     N9RV

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From kq2m@mags.net  Fri Jul 20 16:37:00 2001
From: kq2m@mags.net (Robert Shohet)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:37:00 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
Message-ID: <000901c11131$d2099e80$1bb4f9d0@dchm7>


Hi Guys,

I have read a lot of posts that the coax, rotator and other cables should
ideally come out the bottom of the tower and then proceed at the same height
to the shack so as to avoid a downhill cable run.

My situation is that the bases of my towers are about 10' higher than my
shack - due to their elevation on ledge - my house is not on ledge.

My thought is to have all the cables come out of the tower under the bottom
rung,  go to a metal box next to the tower, be grounded there, and then
proceed at about the 4' level (near the tower) taped around a steel guy wire
(as a messenger cable for support) and anchored at the house at about 12'
above ground (slight downward slope from tower) where the cables will then
be routed to another metal box (and grounded again) and then proceed inside
to the shack to an aluminum panel with disconnects.

The aluminum panel will be grounded to the outside metal box with thick
solid copper wire through a hole in the side of the house which the cables
will also pass through.

Any problems with this idea and/or any suggestions to make it better?

Please advise.

Tnx for your help and suggestions.

73

Bob KQ2M



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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Fri Jul 20 18:53:33 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 13:53:33 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pointy Top / Mast Binding - Tips?
Message-ID: <1010620135333.NAA01379@gate.iterated.com>


On 7/20/01 9:31 AM, Stan or Patricia Griffiths at w7ni@easystreet.com 
wrote:

>
>> Well, I have the mast inserted into the AG3 in the horizontal position. I
>> was just doing a test fit, and I don't have 15' ceilings in my basement
>> to test it vertically.
>
>Actually, you can do this test horizontally, like you are doing, just fine.

I think the problem was that with 6+ feet sticking out one side, and 1+ 
feet out the other, the mast was just rubbing against the bottom of the 
top end, and the top of the bottom end, causing the binding. It's 
basically lopsided when positioned horizontally.

When I stood it up vertically, the mast showed no tendancy to bind at all.

>> It's not tight, it just seems to take a bit of effort to rotate.
>
>Is there any chance that the 2 inch alumnum mast is really a little larger 
>than 2 inches?  Or could it be slightly warped?

I rolled the mast on (my not quite so flat) floor, and there's no 
indication it is bent.

Looks like 2" to me.

>> I'll have to move it outside vertically, rig up the rotator and try it
>> out a few times.
>
>It ought to turn real easy without the rotator installed.  If it doesn't,
>things can only get worse with the rotator in there.

Again, I only had problems with it horizontal. Once vertical, it was OK.

>> One item I have to figure out is how to line up the rotator shelf so the
>> rotator axis is parallel to the axis of the top.  Suggestions there would
>> be helpful.
>
>Early Ham-m rotators were made for 2 1/16" OD masts and binding occurred 
>if you
>did not shim them 1/32" from both points where the mast contacts bell 
>casting.
>I am not sure, but I don't think this was a problem with later Ham-Series
>rotators . . .

This is a later Ham-M Series 5. I don't see how the mast connection could 
take anything larger than this 2" mast.

When I tried rotating it, the far end of the mast did not appear to try 
to move in a circle, so I don't think I have an axis problem.

>> I was planning to leave the shelf loose, then put the rotator in place
>> and have the mast position everything properly, then tighten the shelf.
>
>That is the right idea.  Tighten rotator ubolts first, rotator to plate bolts
>second, and plate to tower leg ubolts last.

That's what I did, and it worked great! I then removed the mast and 
rotator, leaving the shelf in place for me to hoist up later.

>> For my own piece of mind, I may coat the insides with LPS 2.
>
>It can't hurt.

After running my tests (which involved a complete rotation 3 or 4 times), 
when I removed the mast, I noticed a small groove at several points on 
the Al mast. Not enough to compromise the strength of the tube, but I 
will try to buff them out with a sanding sponge, and see if I can't 
smooth off the rough edges that caused this within the pointy top.

A lubricant would slow this type of chafing as well.

>Hope you get this worked out.  I simply never needed any of the complex 
>cures I have read about here on Towertalk . . .

I think it would have all worked out if I just put it up. But reading 
TowerTalk has made me wary -- I like to test things on the ground to make 
sure it will all work instead of being 40+ feet off the ground trying to 
figure it out....

Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net  Fri Jul 20 19:44:25 2001
From: Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net (Kevin Hemsley)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:44:25 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Horizontal loop and ladderline project
Message-ID: <116201c1114c$001a39f0$d5cbe4cc@kevin>


After much looking, I have finally found a source for utility poles.  In
addition to a new 60 foot tower, I am putting up five 40 foot utility poles;
four of which will be supports for a 160M horizontal loop, and the fifth
pole will provide support for future wire antenna experiments.  I plan to
plant the utility poles about 5 feet deep making the poles 35 feet high.  My
plan is to plant the four corners of the horizontal loop about 150 feet from
the shack.  Part of the sales pitch to my XYL is to bury the feed line out
to the loop.

Are there any issues with running 450 ohm ladderline in PVC pipe
underground?  True open wire line would probably be best (like W7FGs), but
I'm not sure how to "discretely" bring it back to the shack.

I am also looking for ideas for corner wire supports for the horizontal
loop.

------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Hemsley
kev@ida.net
KB7TYA


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From w5kp@swbell.net  Fri Jul 20 20:00:00 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:00:00 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn hardware sizes??
References: <4.3.2.20010719093612.00ca0990@mail.ricc.net>
 <005501c110b9$964ce320$55ab82d1@k9zm> <3B583883.E907E1CF@easystreet.com>
Message-ID: <003501c1114e$2e49e300$9120c1cf@jkdesktop>


True, my new partially birthed 45G came with the bolt packages in a separate
carton.
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: Stan or Patricia Griffiths <w7ni@easystreet.com>
To: Greg Gobleman <k9zm@frontiernet.net>; Towertalk (E-mail)
<towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Rohn hardware sizes??


>
> Rohn does ship tower bolts in the legs of 25G.   I have never known them
to do this in
> 45G.
>
> Stan



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From W8JI@contesting.com  Fri Jul 20 21:24:56 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:24:56 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Horizontal loop and ladderline project
In-Reply-To: <116201c1114c$001a39f0$d5cbe4cc@kevin>
Message-ID: <200107202028.f6KKSnR31653@paris.akorn.net>


> Are there any issues with running 450 ohm ladderline in PVC pipe
> underground?  True open wire line would probably be best (like W7FGs), but
> I'm not sure how to "discretely" bring it back to the shack.

There are problems with that. A few years ago, I measured the loss 
in ladder line in buried PVC pipe. I don't have that data handy, but 
the loss increase is very substantial.

As I recall, placing the line inside PVC and then burying the pipe 
for ten feet caused loss to exceed that of even very small coaxial 
cables. There is substantial energy outside the area of the 
conductors in a balanced line, and unless you can suspend the 
line several conductor spacings (several inches) away from dirt you 
will likely find you have a nice load resistor. 

Of course the attenuation depends on the distance the line is 
buried, what the soil is like, and the spacing from the soil to the 
line...but I could even measure additional loss just from the PVC 
pipe with the line and pipe in air!

Unless you can put a tuner at the antenna and bring coax into the 
house, you may not have made a good bargain.

73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From W8JI@contesting.com  Fri Jul 20 21:24:56 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:24:56 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
In-Reply-To: <000901c11131$d2099e80$1bb4f9d0@dchm7>
Message-ID: <200107202028.f6KKSpR31656@paris.akorn.net>


> I have read a lot of posts that the coax, rotator and other cables should
> ideally come out the bottom of the tower and then proceed at the same
> height to the shack so as to avoid a downhill cable run.


The problem as far as I know is lightning. If the cables leave the 
tower above ground level, it is bad news for lightning protection.
 
> My thought is to have all the cables come out of the tower under the
> bottom rung,  go to a metal box next to the tower, be grounded there, and
> then proceed at about the 4' level (near the tower) taped around a steel
> guy wire (as a messenger cable for support) and anchored at the house at
> about 12' above ground (slight downward slope from tower) where the cables
> will then be routed to another metal box (and grounded again) and then
> proceed inside to the shack to an aluminum panel with disconnects.

That's probably OK if the messenger cable does not attach to the 
tower, and starts several feet from the tower. Of course the best 
thing is to have the cable run underground to the house!

> The aluminum panel will be grounded to the outside metal box with thick
> solid copper wire through a hole in the side of the house which the cables
> will also pass through.

The best place for the bulkhead ground is just outside the building. 
Running the ground wire back out with the cables is not a good 
idea at all. 

The situation is a wide copper flashing straight down from the 
bulkhead to a real good ground that also ties with a very low 
impedance connection into the utility grounds for the house.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net  Fri Jul 20 21:56:34 2001
From: Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net (Kevin Hemsley)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:56:34 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Horizontal loop and ladderline project
References: <200107202028.f6KKSnR31653@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <122401c1115e$766e1b50$d5cbe4cc@kevin>


Tom Rauch wrote:

> There are problems with that. A few years ago, I measured the loss
> in ladder line in buried PVC pipe. I don't have that data handy, but
> the loss increase is very substantial.
>
> As I recall, placing the line inside PVC and then burying the pipe
> for ten feet caused loss to exceed that of even very small coaxial
> cables. There is substantial energy outside the area of the
> conductors in a balanced line, and unless you can suspend the
> line several conductor spacings (several inches) away from dirt you
> will likely find you have a nice load resistor.

This is very interesting.  I can run the latter line suspended along a fence
line.  It would run past a metal building about 4 to 5 feet away.    This
sounds better than underground.
------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Hemsley
kev@ida.net
KB7TYA



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From Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net  Fri Jul 20 22:08:34 2001
From: Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net (Kevin Hemsley)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 15:08:34 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Horizontal loop and ladderline project
Message-ID: <124501c11160$235db180$d5cbe4cc@kevin>


Brian/K3KO writes:

> Low dipoles are also cloud burners.  I suspect they will perform as
> well as this loop plus you can feed them with coax.  Burying 450 line
> is a bad idea.  Burying coax works and has no impact on loss.
>
> After fooling around with the loop for a while I suspect you will be
> back to the dipoles anyhow.  I hope the structures are far enough
> apart to permit this.

I failed to mention that I plan to use the loop for more than 160M.  One of
its uses on 80 and 160 will be for in-state communications, so a high
radiation angle is desirable.  My experience with other large horizontal
loops at this height have been very good.

------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Hemsley
kev@ida.net
KB7TYA




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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Fri Jul 20 21:59:56 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:59:56 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Horizontal loop and ladderline project
Message-ID: <1010620165957.QAA26967@gate.iterated.com>


On 7/20/01 4:24 PM, Tom Rauch at w8ji@akorn.net wrote:

>Unless you can put a tuner at the antenna and bring coax into the 
>house, you may not have made a good bargain.

How about mounting a balun outside, and bringing coax underground / into 
the building? 

Not as good as open wire all the way, but better than coax all the way 
out to the antenna.



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From jbattin@starband.net  Fri Jul 20 22:06:47 2001
From: jbattin@starband.net (BATTIN)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:06:47 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] US Tower MA850 Antenna Stacking
Message-ID: <BF1B0585B1D75D115A370005B81EDA68@jbattin.starband.net>


I am in the process of putting up a US Tower MA-850 with rotating 
base. I would like to mount a small HF beam on one of the telescoping 
sections. At full extension each section is 16ft apart. If I can I 
would like to stack a pair of C3s or a pair of the new Fluid Motion 
antennas. One beam could be at 87 feet and the other could be at 55 
feet. The separation can also be adjusted by tower height. Does any 
one on TowerTalk know if or what would be the best way to mount an 
antenna to the top of one of the telescoping sections on a MA series 
tower?

Jeff - Ko7p

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From K7GCO@aol.com  Fri Jul 20 22:18:05 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 17:18:05 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Horizontal loop and ladderline project
Message-ID: <27.1890ac49.2889fa0d@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/20/01 11:42:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kev@ida.net 
writes:
<< 
 After much looking, I have finally found a source for utility poles.  In
 addition to a new 60 foot tower, I am putting up five 40 foot utility poles;
 four of which will be supports for a 160M horizontal loop, and the fifth
 pole will provide support for future wire antenna experiments.  I plan to
 plant the utility poles about 5 feet deep making the poles 35 feet high.  My
 plan is to plant the four corners of the horizontal loop about 150 feet from
 the shack.  Part of the sales pitch to my XYL is to bury the feed line out
 to the loop.
 
 Are there any issues with running 450 ohm ladderline in PVC pipe
 underground?  True open wire line would probably be best (like W7FGs), but
 I'm not sure how to "discretely" bring it back to the shack.
 
 I am also looking for ideas for corner wire supports for the horizontal
 loop.
 Kevin Hemsley
 kev@ida.net
 KB7TYA
  >>
What was the source of the utility poles and were they wood or metal?  

When grid dipping open wire line I've found it should be at least 5' over 
ground.  I will run a loss test on it say 1' over gorund and the new resonant 
frequency.  Supporting it in PVC pipe would be a waste of time it seems to 
me.  I'd feed the loop with a 100 ohm balanced 100 or 150 ohm coax into a 
Match Box also modified for 160M and it will be a great system.  Make it 
multiples of  91' 2" for .66 VF coax. 

Open wire line can be made more drescrete with certain XYL gifts and 
complements of her looks!   K7GCO

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From charlie.ocker@tellabs.com  Fri Jul 20 22:27:57 2001
From: charlie.ocker@tellabs.com (Charlie Ocker)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:27:57 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Horizontal loop and ladderline project
References: <1010620165957.QAA26967@gate.iterated.com>
Message-ID: <3B58A25D.11D0D3AF@tellabs.com>


Bill Coleman wrote:
> How about mounting a balun outside, and bringing coax underground / into
> the building?

A balun work's best when it see's a pure resistance, or nearly so.  A
balun at the end of a piece of coax, feeding a length of balanced line
that feeds an antenna, will almost be guaranteed to see a reactive load.

A better idea would be to place the balun at the input of a balanced
tuner.  If there are difficulties in bringing in the balanced line to
the tuner, then a small section of shielded balanced line can be
employed.

73,
Charlie  N9CO	(no expert on balanced lines, just my empirical
observations)

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From Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net  Fri Jul 20 22:33:33 2001
From: Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net (Kevin Hemsley)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 15:33:33 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Horizontal loop and ladderline project
References: <27.1890ac49.2889fa0d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <12ad01c11163$a075e540$d5cbe4cc@kevin>


K7GCO writes:
> What was the source of the utility poles and were they wood or metal?

They are treated wood in new condition.

> Open wire line can be made more discreet with certain XYL gifts and
> complements of her looks!   K7GCO

This, I believe, is one of the great advice treasures of TT to be remembered
by young and old.  This project has already cost me a plane ticket  :-)  But
I will get a lot of mileage out of it.  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Hemsley
kev@ida.net
KB7TYA



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From w5kp@swbell.net  Fri Jul 20 20:08:25 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:08:25 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Horizontal loop and ladderline project
References: <116201c1114c$001a39f0$d5cbe4cc@kevin>
Message-ID: <009b01c1114f$5d1db0c0$9120c1cf@jkdesktop>


Interesting question, Kevin. I hope somebody has a good answer. One thing is
for sure, though. Inside the conduit, no matter how or what you do to it to
avoid it, it will be lying in water (condensation) most of the time,
year-round. Can't imagine that will help the constant impedance feature of
ladderline.
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Hemsley <kev@ida.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 1:44 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Horizontal loop and ladderline project


>
> After much looking, I have finally found a source for utility poles.  In
> addition to a new 60 foot tower, I am putting up five 40 foot utility
poles;
> four of which will be supports for a 160M horizontal loop, and the fifth
> pole will provide support for future wire antenna experiments.  I plan to
> plant the utility poles about 5 feet deep making the poles 35 feet high.
My
> plan is to plant the four corners of the horizontal loop about 150 feet
from
> the shack.  Part of the sales pitch to my XYL is to bury the feed line out
> to the loop.
>
> Are there any issues with running 450 ohm ladderline in PVC pipe
> underground?  True open wire line would probably be best (like W7FGs), but
> I'm not sure how to "discretely" bring it back to the shack.
>
> I am also looking for ideas for corner wire supports for the horizontal
> loop.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Kevin Hemsley
> kev@ida.net
> KB7TYA
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>
>


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From w7gj@bigskyspaces.com  Fri Jul 20 23:01:19 2001
From: w7gj@bigskyspaces.com (Lance Collister)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:01:19 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Galvanized U Bolt Clamps?
Message-ID: <3B58AA2F.6B2853F2@bigskyspaces.com>


Hello!

I am in the process of building an EME array for 6m, and need to construct the H
frame.  I have been unable to find a local source for galvanized clamps, and I
wonder if anyone can suggest a place to purchase them.  

My vertical masts are 2.375" OD aluminum pipe.  With automotive muffler clamps,
which I have used in the past, I have found that a "heavy duty" 2.25" would provide
a tight-fitting saddle.  If I can't come up with a source for galvanized clamps at a
reasonable price, the plan is to buy the galvanized U bolts, and use them with
locally powder-coated (including a zinc primer first) heavy duty automotive muffler
clamp saddles.  

Any suggestions would be appreciated.  MNI TNX and 73, Lance
-- 
Lance Collister, W7GJ (ex: WN3GPL, WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8)
P.O. Box 73
Frenchtown, MT  59834  USA
QTH: DN27UB
TEL: (406) 626-5728   FAX:(406) 728-6320
URL: http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Fri Jul 20 23:14:54 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:14:54 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
Message-ID: <ad.da0bb46.288a075e@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/20/01 8:27:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kq2m@mags.net 
writes:

> My thought is to have all the cables come out of the tower under the bottom
>  rung,  go to a metal box next to the tower, be grounded there, 

    What's the purpose of the metal box? 

    Commercial specs call for grounding cables that come down the tower 
*before* they turn towards the building. The cables should be grounded 
directly to the tower at that point to offer the lowest resistance path to 
ground. The bend in the cables introduces inductance at that point so you 
want to be grounded before that so the lightning energy will go there to 
ground. 

>  and then
>  proceed at about the 4' level (near the tower) taped around a steel guy 
wire
>  (as a messenger cable for support) and anchored at the house at about 12'
>  above ground (slight downward slope from tower) where the cables will then
>  be routed to another metal box (and grounded again) and then proceed inside
>  to the shack to an aluminum panel with disconnects.

    The idea is to keep the lightning energy OUT of the house so either your 
aluminum panel needs to be outside the house or you need a bus bar at the 
building entry where the cables are grounded before they go inside. (I hope 
it's obvious that the bus bar is grounded.) The outside entry bus bar is the 
focal point of your Single Point Ground System. It's where all the ground 
wires meet.
>  
>  The aluminum panel will be grounded to the outside metal box with thick
>  solid copper wire through a hole in the side of the house which the cables
>  will also pass through.

    The aluminum panel only needs to be connected to the outside bus bar to 
be part of the ground system. 

    I don't know what the purpose of the outside metal box is. If it's for 
some sort of grounding function, it will put more resistance in the system 
and the charge will find an another path to ground - most likely one you 
hadn't planned on. That's why you need the cables grounded at the bottom of 
the tower before they turn towards the building.

Cheers,    Steve     K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From jamvet@bellsouth.net  Fri Jul 20 23:57:10 2001
From: jamvet@bellsouth.net (Milcarsky)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:57:10 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
References: <ad.da0bb46.288a075e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1116f$4f96a7c0$5ed94cd8@pavilion>


Steve,

It's clear that grounding the coax at the tower base, before it bends toward
the shack is the right thing to do.  However, I have only heard that the
coax shield should be grounded at this point.  Why not also place an
arrestor for the center conductor at this point as well?  It would seem that
this would afford a certain amount of extra protection.  What are your
thoughts?

Ed  KG4ARN

----- Original Message -----
From: <K7LXC@aol.com>
To: <kq2m@mags.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
>     Commercial specs call for grounding cables that come down the tower
> *before* they turn towards the building. The cables should be grounded
> directly to the tower at that point to offer the lowest resistance path to
> ground. The bend in the cables introduces inductance at that point so you
> want to be grounded before that so the lightning energy will go there to
> ground.




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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Sat Jul 21 00:21:12 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 19:21:12 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Mast arrived
Message-ID: <000501c11172$c7ac8240$a583c640@spelunk.sueno>


TT:

     I'm another satisfied customer of Special Metals, Inc., the mast
supplier for Jerry W5KP's mast.    The 2 inch, 22-foot long, 0.25 inch wall
chrome molybdinum mast I ordered from these guys on July 12  arrived this
evening.  Really painless to get it - call up Joe Varva (1-800-727-7177),
tell him what you want and give him a credit card number.  It came with a
MTR (Material Test Report), showing my piece has 112.2 Ksi tensile
strength - plenty.

     My alternative was to travel to Dillsburg, PA (maybe 70+ miles one way)
in my mini-van (pause for laughter), hope they had one as long as I wanted,
then try to get it home without its falling off the luggage rack.  This
would have saved me twenty dollars over the delivered price from Special
Metals.  The money was worth the convenience.

     BTW - I now have to return the industrial bearing I bought for the CM.
The 2 inch bearing hole is probably on the low side of the dimension.  Need
a slightly larger bearing.  Darn!

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F


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From Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com  Sat Jul 21 00:40:49 2001
From: Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com (Kenneth Hirschberg)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:40:49 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Phone pole mount
Message-ID: <001001c11175$69142be0$0666530c@ken>




Hello - TT'ers
For those interested in using a phone pole to mount a large beam, I have a
professionally made phone pole mount that  is available for sale.  It was
built to my spec to rotate a large 40 M beam.
Features:
1.  Includes a 9' mast, the lower 7' of which is double wall. Beam sat just
above the top of rotation assy., still on the double wall part.

2. Mount is 7' high, constructed of a 7' tall heavy aluminum channel, with
1/4" aluminum box-reinforced shelves. One large one for the rotator, and two
others for the thrust bearings.  Mount is a TIG-welded assembly.

3. Rotator is mounted on a plate, which is in turn mounted on the lowest
shelf, using four auto engine mounts.  The engine mount mounting makes life
easier for the rotator, and allows the use of two thrust bearings.  Two
thrust bearings allow the rotator to be easily removed for maintenance.

4. Includes a Yaesu 2700 rotator, (the immediate predecessor to the 2800)
and the control box for same.

5. includes 4 stainless steel sway braces that tie into the sides of the
pole.

6. includes galvanized pole-line hardware, including gain plates.

This is a serious antenna mount for a serious antenna.  It was installed on
a class 2, 70 foot pole.
Condition: Mount: nearly as new
               Rotator: working just fine at last use, which was about 1 1/2
years ago. Whole assy has been stored inside since decommissioning.
               Mast:  galv shows signs of mounting points, but is in
excellent condition; galvanized, mfg. by U.S. Towers to my spec.

Total cost to fabricate: $2550.  Offered at $1200 firm for all, FOB Tucson.
I can arrange for palleting or crating (suggested).  Crating would be extra
at actual cost.

Ken, K6HPX
1-520-624-1300 (days)


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From W8JI@contesting.com  Sat Jul 21 01:23:18 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:23:18 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Horizontal loop and balun
In-Reply-To: <3B58A25D.11D0D3AF@tellabs.com>
Message-ID: <200107210027.f6L0RAR05221@paris.akorn.net>


> A balun work's best when it see's a pure resistance, or nearly so.  A
> balun at the end of a piece of coax, feeding a length of balanced line
> that feeds an antenna, will almost be guaranteed to see a reactive load.

A choke balun cares less if the load is reactive, only voltage baluns 
(like the W2FMI style) are load impedance critical.
 
> A better idea would be to place the balun at the input of a balanced
> tuner.  If there are difficulties in bringing in the balanced line to the
> tuner, then a small section of shielded balanced line can be employed.

Placing a choke balun at the input of a tuner does nothing for 
balancing of the system, although it does reduce differential mode 
stress on the balun (which usually isn't a problem anyway if you 
use a properly constructed choke balun).

After some discussion of this in another antenna forum, Roy 
Lewallen (W7EL) did an analysis and confirmed this.




73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From W8JI@contesting.com  Sat Jul 21 01:23:18 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:23:18 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Horizontal loop and ladderline project
In-Reply-To: <124501c11160$235db180$d5cbe4cc@kevin>
Message-ID: <200107210027.f6L0RFR05233@paris.akorn.net>


Brian brings up an excellent point. I don't want to discourage 
anyone from using a loop because they do have the advantage of 
being easy to feed, but gain is overrated!

Brian sez: 
> > Low dipoles are also cloud burners.  I suspect they will perform as well
> > as this loop plus you can feed them with coax.
  
> > After fooling around with the loop for a while I suspect you will be
> > back to the dipoles anyhow.  I hope the structures are far enough apart
> > to permit this.

I certainly agree! Low full-wave loops, contrary to myth, do NOT 
have gain over a low dipole. As a matter of fact the gain of most 
loops is insignificant once the thing is installed over earth. 

In order to have gain an antenna must force a null in a direction 
where there is significant radiation. Since a low horizontal antenna 
already has a null along the horizon, making it a loop (which tries 
to force a null where a null already exists) does not produce gain.

You actually obtain much more NVIS gain using a low extended 
double zepp than a low loop. The low loop is virtually identical to a 
low dipole, as Brian noted.

On the bands where the loop does make gain, it does so by 
making a multi-null pattern.  The problem is you can't rotate the 
loop. That means statistically you are as likely to find random 
stations in a null as in a lobe. In practice, effectiveness decreases 
because a deep null hurts some directions more than gain helps 
other directions.

Gain is only useful when it is at the proper direction and angle, and that may not happen.

> I failed to mention that I plan to use the loop for more than 160M.  One
> of its uses on 80 and 160 will be for in-state communications, so a high
> radiation angle is desirable.  My experience with other large horizontal
> loops at this height have been very good.

That's OK then, if you like loops use one. There is nothing wrong 
with using an antenna that makes you happy, and there is 
something to be said for having one antenna cover all bands. 

The advantage of a loop is you can get a low or modest feedpoint 
impedance on multiple bands, including even harmonics. That is a 
very real advantage. 

The disadvantage is you need to figure out how to feed the thing 
with coax, or run ladder line above ground.

 

73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From n2mg@contesting.com  Sat Jul 21 01:29:46 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 20 Jul 2001 17:29:46 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
Message-ID: <20010721002946.29937.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>


If the proposed coax entry point is "far" away (say 40 feet around the perimeter of the house) from the utility ground, what's the best thing to do?  Mine will be like this - FWIW, the coax will pass within 10 feet or so of the utility ground as it runs to the tower.

73 Mike N2MG

On Fri, 20 July 2001, "Tom Rauch" wrote:

> The situation is a wide copper flashing 
> straight down from the bulkhead to a 
> real good ground that also ties with a 
> very low impedance connection into the 
> utility grounds for the house.

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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Sat Jul 21 02:46:07 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:46:07 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
Message-ID: <005b01c11187$089c4240$a583c640@spelunk.sueno>


Ed:

     I'm planning on putting the arrestors at the base of my tower, bolted
to the insides of a metallic Hoffman box or similar.  From the box the coax
and control cable runs will be in 3 inch sch 40 buried conduit to the
house/shack.  The alternative is to put the arrestors in a box just outside
the house at the end of the conduit run and ground at that point, as most
commercial installations have it.

     My thinking is that the ground field for a lightning strike originates
at the tower, where all the underground radials connect to the tower legs.
Here the inductance of multiple parallel ground legs will be less than at
the entrance to the house/shack, fifty feet from the tower, where I will
have only one radial to which to connect the arrestors' grounds.  (I'm not
planning on encircling my house with buried copper ground wires.)  I'd
rather have the arrestors far away from the house and let them do their work
in a low-inductance part of the ground field, rather than close to the
house.

     I agree with Steve, though - keep the single-point ground outside of
your house.  Its connection into earth will be shorter and the lightning
energy is less likely to get into your house wiring.   And don't put a bend
in your ground wire from the coax runs.  Keep it as straight as possible
such that the lightning energy continues to move in a downward direction to
a metallic ground connection.

GL es 73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: Milcarsky <jamvet@bellsouth.net>
To: TowerTalk <towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Friday, July 20, 2001 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack


>
>Steve,
>
>It's clear that grounding the coax at the tower base, before it bends
toward
>the shack is the right thing to do.  However, I have only heard that the
>coax shield should be grounded at this point.  Why not also place an
>arrestor for the center conductor at this point as well?  It would seem
that
>this would afford a certain amount of extra protection.  What are your
>thoughts?
>
>Ed  KG4ARN
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <K7LXC@aol.com>
>To: <kq2m@mags.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
>Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 6:14 PM
>Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
>>     Commercial specs call for grounding cables that come down the tower
>> *before* they turn towards the building. The cables should be grounded
>> directly to the tower at that point to offer the lowest resistance path
to
>> ground. The bend in the cables introduces inductance at that point so you
>> want to be grounded before that so the lightning energy will go there to
>> ground.
>
>
>
>
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us
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>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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From W8JI@contesting.com  Sat Jul 21 03:44:36 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:44:36 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
In-Reply-To: <20010721002946.29937.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <200107210248.f6L2mSR07856@paris.akorn.net>


> If the proposed coax entry point is "far" away (say 40 feet around the
> perimeter of the house) from the utility ground, what's the best thing to
> do?  Mine will be like this - FWIW, the coax will pass within 10 feet or
> so of the utility ground as it runs to the tower.

Hi Mike,

Think about what the goal is.  You want everything to move up 
together at the same rate. The big problem is when there is a 
potential difference between different things.

If my feedline passed that close to the utility ground, I would 
certainly ground it (and everything else) there and then try to route 
the feedline (and everything else) into the house along the same 
general path as the power wires. The utility ground is also the 
ground you need to really improve. 

Common point entrances are very desirable.

 
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From n3rr@erols.com  Sat Jul 21 03:55:47 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:55:47 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
In-Reply-To: <200107210248.f6L2mSR07856@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPIECHCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>


In case you haven't looked at it yet, click the "Lightning Protection"
section of my Website and see what I did.  It's right on target with this
discussion and includes plenty of diagrams and photos:

www.erols.com/n3rr

73,

Bill, N3RR


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Tom Rauch
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 10:45 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com; Mike Gilmer - N2MG
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack



> If the proposed coax entry point is "far" away (say 40 feet around the
> perimeter of the house) from the utility ground, what's the best thing to
> do?  Mine will be like this - FWIW, the coax will pass within 10 feet or
> so of the utility ground as it runs to the tower.

Hi Mike,

Think about what the goal is.  You want everything to move up
together at the same rate. The big problem is when there is a
potential difference between different things.

If my feedline passed that close to the utility ground, I would
certainly ground it (and everything else) there and then try to route
the feedline (and everything else) into the house along the same
general path as the power wires. The utility ground is also the
ground you need to really improve.

Common point entrances are very desirable.


73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com

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From w5kp@swbell.net  Sat Jul 21 04:15:31 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:15:31 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Adding copper in the ground
References: <005b01c11187$089c4240$a583c640@spelunk.sueno>
Message-ID: <004901c11193$670610c0$a709b8d1@jkdesktop>


With the new 45G (concrete arrives at 0730 tomorrow) I'm trying something I
haven't seen mentioned, hope it works ok. I placed a 6' long strip of 8"
wide heavy gauge solid copper roofing material in the base hole, covered
with a few inches of gravel. The strip runs across the bottom of the hole
under the gravel, then up and out one side of the hole with about 6" to
spare outside the hole. It's spiked to the side of the hole with a half
dozen 8" spiral bridge nails (just to hold it solid while the concrete's
poured). I plan to tie this copper sheet into the other ground setup for the
tower legs, which will be several (at least 6) copper clad ground rods in a
circle about a 6' radius around the base of the tower, all tied in with #4
copper to all three legs. Don't know if the copper sheet under the tower
base will help dissipate strikes, but I figured it wouldn't hurt and I had
it on hand. My theory is anything that adds copper contact to the ground,
especially down deeper where things stay fairly damp, can only help. Has
anybody that's tried this got any comments? The tower will sit on a Rohn
pier pin in the center of a concrete pad that will measure about 3' square
by 3-1/2 feet deep. Concrete will be a fairly stiff mix of 3000 psi 28-day.
No rebar in the base pad (compression load only), but lots of rebar in the
guy anchor pads. The fun part will be trying to properly finish the base top
around the pier pin area with an ever-so-slight slope in all directions away
from the pier pin, so that water doesn't collect and stand under the tower
base plate. Needless to say, a concrete finisher I ain't.  :-)
Jerry W5KP


----- Original Message -----
From: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>
To: Milcarsky <jamvet@bellsouth.net>; TowerTalk <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack


>
> Ed:
>
>      I'm planning on putting the arrestors at the base of my tower, bolted
> to the insides of a metallic Hoffman box or similar.  From the box the
coax
> and control cable runs will be in 3 inch sch 40 buried conduit to the
> house/shack.  The alternative is to put the arrestors in a box just
outside
> the house at the end of the conduit run and ground at that point, as most
> commercial installations have it.
>
>      My thinking is that the ground field for a lightning strike
originates
> at the tower, where all the underground radials connect to the tower legs.
> Here the inductance of multiple parallel ground legs will be less than at
> the entrance to the house/shack, fifty feet from the tower, where I will
> have only one radial to which to connect the arrestors' grounds.  (I'm not
> planning on encircling my house with buried copper ground wires.)  I'd
> rather have the arrestors far away from the house and let them do their
work
> in a low-inductance part of the ground field, rather than close to the
> house.
>
>      I agree with Steve, though - keep the single-point ground outside of
> your house.  Its connection into earth will be shorter and the lightning
> energy is less likely to get into your house wiring.   And don't put a
bend
> in your ground wire from the coax runs.  Keep it as straight as possible
> such that the lightning energy continues to move in a downward direction
to
> a metallic ground connection.
>
> GL es 73 de
> Gene Smar  AD3F
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Milcarsky <jamvet@bellsouth.net>
> To: TowerTalk <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Date: Friday, July 20, 2001 7:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
>
>
> >
> >Steve,
> >
> >It's clear that grounding the coax at the tower base, before it bends
> toward
> >the shack is the right thing to do.  However, I have only heard that the
> >coax shield should be grounded at this point.  Why not also place an
> >arrestor for the center conductor at this point as well?  It would seem
> that
> >this would afford a certain amount of extra protection.  What are your
> >thoughts?
> >
> >Ed  KG4ARN
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: <K7LXC@aol.com>
> >To: <kq2m@mags.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
> >Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 6:14 PM
> >Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
> >>     Commercial specs call for grounding cables that come down the tower
> >> *before* they turn towards the building. The cables should be grounded
> >> directly to the tower at that point to offer the lowest resistance path
> to
> >> ground. The bend in the cables introduces inductance at that point so
you
> >> want to be grounded before that so the lightning energy will go there
to
> >> ground.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
> us
> >for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> >96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> >www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> >-----
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> >Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
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> >
>
>
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>


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From eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com  Sat Jul 21 04:41:14 2001
From: eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com (Eugene Jensen)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 23:41:14 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Radials attached to tower legs
Message-ID: <NDBBLGNBKLCJJFDFMEINOELPCDAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>


I am in the process of installing a U.S. Tower HDX 455 that will have a
Force 12 Magnum 280B, 80 meter yagi installed.  There will also be a 40
meter yagi above that.  There has been a recommendation that I run 3 quarter
wave length copper ground radials from the tower.  Does anyone have any
experience with this other than obviously an improved electrical path for
lightning?  I have no plans for turning the tower into a vertical.  Thanks.
Gene.  K2QWD


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From n4kg@juno.com  Sat Jul 21 01:59:01 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:59:01 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Horizontal loop and ladderline project
Message-ID: <20010720.221748.-194137.0.N4KG@juno.com>


N4KG comments follow

On Fri, 20 Jul 2001  "Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net> writes:
> 
> Brian/K3KO writes:
> 
> > Low dipoles are also cloud burners.  I suspect they will perform  as
> > well as this loop plus you can feed them with coax.  Burying 450 
> line is a bad idea.  Burying coax works and has no impact on loss.
> >
> > After fooling around with the loop for a while I suspect you will 
> be back to the dipoles anyhow.  I hope the structures are far enough
> > apart to permit this.
> 
> I failed to mention that I plan to use the loop for more than 160M.  
> One of its uses on 80 and 160 will be for in-state communications, 
> so a  high  radiation angle is desirable.  My experience with other
large 
> horizontal loops at this height have been very good.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Kevin Hemsley
> kev@ida.net
> KB7TYA
> 

A full wave loop radiates broadside to the loop so on
the fundamental frequency a horizontal loop will radiate
straight up.

A TWO Wavelength loop (2nd harmonic) acts as two pairs 
(at right angles) of half waves spaced 1/2 WL apart.  
As a horizontal loop, it will have a NULL straight up. 
At 35 ft, on 80M, the ground reflection is concentrated 
at high angles and poor at low angles.  
The radiated pattern is the product of the free space radiation pattern
and the ground reflection coefficients.  Unfortunately, with a 
LOW 2 WL Loop, the incident radiation does not coincide with 
the ground reflection.  Bottom line: it will make a poor high angle 
radiator and a poor low angle radiator.  A low 80M dipole would be 
a better high angle radiator.

35 ft poles would make nice supports for higher angle (daytime)
high band antennas such as 2L Yagis or 2L Quads for 10 thru 20 meters.

Tom  N4KG


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From n4kg@juno.com  Sat Jul 21 05:36:07 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:36:07 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Mast arrived
Message-ID: <20010720.224202.-194137.2.N4KG@juno.com>


On Fri, 20 Jul 2001 19:21:12 -0400 "EUGENE  SMAR"
<SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net> writes:
>
>      My alternative was to travel to Dillsburg, PA (maybe 70+ miles 
> one way) in my mini-van (pause for laughter), hope they had one as 
> long as I  wanted,
> then try to get it home without its falling off the luggage rack.  
> 73 de Gene Smar  AD3F
>

Another way to carry a LONG mast is UNDER your vehicle.
Naturally, the higher the clearance, the better.  
Smooth roads without dips or inclines is a plus. :-)

Tom  N4KG

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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Sat Jul 21 07:00:26 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 02:00:26 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Radials attached to tower legs
Message-ID: <00ab01c111aa$7378e5a0$a583c640@spelunk.sueno>


Gene:

     What is the intended purpose for the radials according to those who
recommended their installation?  Lightning protection?  Will they be deeply
buried or just lying on the surface of the ground?  From your posting, I
conclude you otherwise had no intention of putting in a grounding system of
any kind.  That's tempting fate, IMO.

     I suggest you get a copy of Polyphaser's book  The Grounds for
Lightning Protection.  Great source of design info on protecting your tower,
coax and home wiring from lightning effects.  The best illustration in the
book is a series of drawings depicting how a lightning strike "saturates"
the earth around your tower and ground conductors with its energy.  The
objective of a ground system is to give the energy enough "earth" to dump
into harmlessly, like using sponges to mop up a liquid spill.  If the sponge
isn't big enough (not enough wire in conductive earth), the sponge (earth)
will not be able to absorb the liquid (lightning energy.)  Without
additional ground conductors, your planned tower and concrete base would be
like a small piece of sponge - unable to absorb and dissipate safely all the
energy contained in a strike.

     Read the Polyphaser book and decide whether three radials (connected to
ground rods pounded into the earth, BTW) would be enough for your
installation.

GL es 73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
P.S.  The design standard for towers, TIA/EIA 222, calls for two driven
ground rods connected to two tower legs at a minimum.  Concrete base is not
enough of a ground, per the standard.
-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Jensen <eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>
To: towertalk@contesting.com <towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Saturday, July 21, 2001 1:34 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Radials attached to tower legs


>
>I am in the process of installing a U.S. Tower HDX 455 that will have a
>Force 12 Magnum 280B, 80 meter yagi installed.  There will also be a 40
>meter yagi above that.  There has been a recommendation that I run 3
quarter
>wave length copper ground radials from the tower.  Does anyone have any
>experience with this other than obviously an improved electrical path for
>lightning?  I have no plans for turning the tower into a vertical.  Thanks.
>Gene.  K2QWD
>
>
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>
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From w7gj@bigskyspaces.com  Sat Jul 21 15:16:07 2001
From: w7gj@bigskyspaces.com (Lance Collister)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 08:16:07 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Galvanized U Bolt Clamps?
References: <3B58AA2F.6B2853F2@bigskyspaces.com>
Message-ID: <3B598EA7.C780F2C2@bigskyspaces.com>


Lance Collister wrote:
> 
> Hello!
> 
> I am in the process of building an EME array for 6m, and need to construct the H
> frame.  I have been unable to find a local source for galvanized clamps, and I
> wonder if anyone can suggest a place to purchase them.
> 
> My vertical masts are 2.375" OD aluminum pipe.  With automotive muffler clamps,
> which I have used in the past, I have found that a "heavy duty" 2.25" would provide
> a tight-fitting saddle.  If I can't come up with a source for galvanized clamps at a
> reasonable price, the plan is to buy the galvanized U bolts, and use them with
> locally powder-coated (including a zinc primer first) heavy duty automotive muffler
> clamp saddles.
> 
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.  MNI TNX and 73, Lance
> --
> Lance Collister, W7GJ (ex: WN3GPL, WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8)
> P.O. Box 73
> Frenchtown, MT  59834  USA
> QTH: DN27UB
> TEL: (406) 626-5728   FAX:(406) 728-6320
> URL: http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj
> 
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
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MNI TNX for all the suggestions.  Based on pricing (for the dozens of clamps I
need), it looks like galvanized (hot dipped or plated) is the way I will go.  Am
still trying to find Canadian source for plated clamps in various sizes.  Best
suggestion so far for galvanized clamps was 

http://www.reprise.com/antronics/antronics_hardware.asp

I will now unsubscribe from the reflector and go about collecting all the hardware I
need.  AGN, MNI TNX for the guidance and VY 73, Lance
-- 
Lance Collister, W7GJ (ex: WN3GPL, WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8)
P.O. Box 73
Frenchtown, MT  59834  USA
QTH: DN27UB
TEL: (406) 626-5728   FAX:(406) 728-6320
URL: http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj

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From khopper@uchicago.edu  Sat Jul 21 15:16:25 2001
From: khopper@uchicago.edu (Ken Hopper)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 09:16:25 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] [OT] "Reflected-M" beams?
Message-ID: <3B598EB9.30F5BF79@uchicago.edu>


Hello out there in Antenna land. Has anyone ever built an Reflected-M or
X-Beam or Pfeiffer Quad? They look pretty good (
http://autoinfo.smartlink.net/kq6rh/antenna/ant_magi.htm ) but I am afraid I
don't have the necessary building skills. Anyone have actual experience with
any of them?

Comments? suggestions? 
Mny tnx,
de ken n9vv
http://www.n9vv.com

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From ut4uz@idirect.com  Sat Jul 21 15:36:36 2001
From: ut4uz@idirect.com (Yuri VA3UZ)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 10:36:36 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] TH6DXX
Message-ID: <001101c111f3$7d792120$170a9ad8@-yuri>


Hi TTers,
My friend is restoring old TH6DXX and he needs to know the distance between
Driven element and first beta supporting insulator (black). Or how far the
beta match tubes should be from the driven element?
If anybody has his TH6 on the ground and willing to make measurement - I'd
really appreciate it.
Manual doesn't say anything on that.
Thanks,
Yuri  VA3UZ



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From w5kp@swbell.net  Sat Jul 21 15:46:12 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 09:46:12 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Finally - a break in the schedule
Message-ID: <001701c111f3$e405e040$0222c1cf@jkdesktop>


Concrete is in the ground, wetted and covered, pier pin is installed, guy
rod angles have been rechecked, and it's time for a break. Besides, it's
going to be 103 degrees again today. Luckily for me the driver was a
concrete finisher for 20 years till he got crippled up and started driving
instead. He politely and silently watched my amateur (no pun intended)
finishing efforts on the base top for as long as he could stand it, then
said "gimme that trowel". He did less than 5 minutes what would have taken
me God knows how long to do, and the finished product looks beautiful. There
is about a 1/8" per foot slope in all directions away from the pier pin,
which is about what I wanted. The concrete order even came out right, we had
less than a cubic foot left over when the truck was empty and the last hole
was full. Thanks again to all the TT'ers who have helped out with advice on
this thing. Guess I'd best get started prefabbing some guys, and other
little jobs. Because of my work and vacation schedule, it will be after
Labor day before I actually begin stacking sections, so this stuff will have
*plenty* of time to cure up properly, about 6 weeks. Plus it should be a lot
more comfortable weather wise by then.

If you watch the Oklahoma-Air Force game Sept 1 from Colorado Springs, look
for me on the 45 yard line, about 10 rows up. I'll be sitting right in the
middle of the Air Force fan section (locally procured tickets) but wearing
Crimson and Cream and rooting like hell for my Sooners. Hope I don't get
punched in the nose.

73, Jerry W5KP



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From K7LXC@aol.com  Sat Jul 21 15:49:14 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 10:49:14 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
Message-ID: <108.2e51ba5.288af06a@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/20/01 3:57:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jamvet@bellsouth.net writes:

> It's clear that grounding the coax at the tower base, before it bends toward
>  the shack is the right thing to do.  However, I have only heard that the
>  coax shield should be grounded at this point.  Why not also place an
>  arrestor for the center conductor at this point as well?  It would seem 
that
>  this would afford a certain amount of extra protection. 
>  
    The transient arrestor should be at the building entry, again to keep 
lightning energy out of the house. Putting another one inline somewhere else 
is a waste of money because you only need one inline at the Single Point of 
your ground system. While having one on the tower would take care of 
transients coming down the cables at that point, you've still got potential 
problems between there and the building entry so the one on the tower really 
doesn't do anything. 

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From dick.green@valley.net  Sat Jul 21 16:45:13 2001
From: dick.green@valley.net (Dick Green)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 11:45:13 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] RE: Tower Talk Digest V4 #306
In-Reply-To: <200107210351.f6L3pwA09716@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <PFECKKOPNKDAIKEBBMOLGEIOCCAA.dick.green@valley.net>


Jeff,

This is an interesting idea, and I've wondered if it could be done. I
haven't pursued it because my TH-7's windload maxes out my MA-770's rating.
These towers aren't designed for a stacked configuration, but I can't think
of a reason it would be unsafe, as long as the combined windload is under
the tower's max rating. Besides, the lower antenna doesn't present the same
bending moment as the top antenna, so it could probably be up-rated.

I think the simplest method would be to use a pair of large u-bolts around
the MA-850. If you can get big enough u-bolts with saddles, and the saddles
are strong enough, you could drill holes in the saddles that line up with
the u-bolt holes on the antenna's boom-to-mast bracket. Then you can mount
the boom-to-mast bracket to the saddles with some short bolts. If you can't
find u-bolts with appropriate saddles, you could make your own out of some
angle stock.

The C3 uses a two-plate mounting system and there's a center bolt in the
mast plate. The head of the bolt is supposed to sit flush against the mast
so you can slip the boom plate over it easily when you mount the antenna. If
the u-bolt saddles are on the mast side of the plate, the bolt won't stay
in. It's no big deal -- the centering bolt is a convenience, not a
necessity.  If possible, though, try to put the plate between the mast and
the saddles. That way, you might be able to use the centering bolt as
intended.

The downside to this method is that it may prevent full retraction of the
tower. It's not a safety problem because we're only talking about a few
inches. The problem is that the antenna mounting may slam into the top of
the next section down before the limit switch stops the retraction. If you
don't use the remote control option, or can see the tower from the remote
control location, you can manually stop the retraction in time. If, like me,
you use the remote control and can't see the tower, you may be able to move
the limit switch activation point by lowering the small piece of track it
rides on.

Another problem is that the mounting has to clear all the stuff at the top
of the section -- pulleys, cables, coax standoffs, etc. I think there's
sufficient room, but you need to give some thought to exactly where to place
the mounting.

Hope this helps, and let us know if it works.

73, Dick WC1M


> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:06:47 -0700
> From: "BATTIN" <jbattin@starband.net>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] US Tower MA850 Antenna Stacking
>
> I am in the process of putting up a US Tower MA-850 with rotating
> base. I would like to mount a small HF beam on one of the telescoping
> sections. At full extension each section is 16ft apart. If I can I
> would like to stack a pair of C3s or a pair of the new Fluid Motion
> antennas. One beam could be at 87 feet and the other could be at 55
> feet. The separation can also be adjusted by tower height. Does any
> one on TowerTalk know if or what would be the best way to mount an
> antenna to the top of one of the telescoping sections on a MA series
> tower?
>
> Jeff - Ko7p


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From jerryc@netscope.net  Sat Jul 21 22:33:29 2001
From: jerryc@netscope.net (jerryc)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 17:33:29 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hum and buzz noise
Message-ID: <001e01c1122c$c9b30c20$c190fea9@cad1>


I realize this is an issue unrelated to towers and antenna construction but
would greatly appreciate
someone pointing me in the direction of info. about powerline or other
electrical interference.
I am getting video noise in my tv sets (all three),  receiver noise
(sporadic welding like sounds) and
in intermittent (volume goes up and down but never stops) power supply hum
on one transceiver.
Have taken the transceiver to two other friends houses and one repair shop
and the hum is gone but
always returns when I get back home.  I have checked wiring and installed
new grounds.  Turned off all power in the house except on the one circuit
the transceiver is on (its 120vac).  Tried the same with it on a different
circuit.  Still the hum is there.  Have unhooked the doorbell, motion sensor
porch light, and anything else I could think of.  Haven't called the power
co. yet.  Want to do some
research first.  They respond slow if at all to radio interference
complaints.
Thanks for any guidance.
JerryC
jerryc@netscope.net
no call yet (still working on the code)




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From kb0gus@hotmail.com  Sat Jul 21 23:03:52 2001
From: kb0gus@hotmail.com (Josh T)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 17:03:52 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] homebrew 20m ground mouted vertical... good idea??
Message-ID: <F47BySsxVY60mJWEsBk00001c29@hotmail.com>


I was thinking about building a 20m vertical to ground mount. I'd like to 
build rather than buy for the fun and the price..

What is everyones thought on this. Would it be worth my time? I have a 
couple of wire antennas that I've been using for years and I'm kinda itching 
to try something new.

Thanks for your comments and advice...

Josh - KB0GUS

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


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From rthorne@tcac.net  Sat Jul 21 23:19:16 2001
From: rthorne@tcac.net (Richard Thorne)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 17:19:16 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] homebrew 20m ground mouted vertical... good idea??
References: <F47BySsxVY60mJWEsBk00001c29@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3B59FFE3.97160D16@tcac.net>


If you can elevate the vertical about 10' or so and use 3 or 4 elevated radials.



Josh T wrote:

> I was thinking about building a 20m vertical to ground mount. I'd like to
> build rather than buy for the fun and the price..
>
> What is everyones thought on this. Would it be worth my time? I have a
> couple of wire antennas that I've been using for years and I'm kinda itching
> to try something new.
>
> Thanks for your comments and advice...
>
> Josh - KB0GUS
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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--
73,
Richard Thorne
Amarillo, TX
Amateur Radio Station - N5ZC (Ex. KA2DSY, N2BHP, WB5M)
Remote Control Planes - AMA # N5ZC
Web Page: http://www.tcac.net/~rthorne/index.html



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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Sat Jul 21 23:47:25 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 22:47:25 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] homebrew 20m ground mouted vertical... good idea??
References: <F47BySsxVY60mJWEsBk00001c29@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3B5A067D.FE90097B@gloryroad.net>


Sure, build it.  However, leave the other wires up so you can do
direct comparisons.  That way you will be able to determine if you
made any improvement!  Alternatively, you could model what you have
and the vertical and see before building.

73 de Brian/K3KO

Josh T wrote:
> 
> I was thinking about building a 20m vertical to ground mount. I'd like to
> build rather than buy for the fun and the price..
> 
> What is everyones thought on this. Would it be worth my time? I have a
> couple of wire antennas that I've been using for years and I'm kinda itching
> to try something new.
> 
> Thanks for your comments and advice...
> 
> Josh - KB0GUS
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
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From Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com  Sun Jul 22 00:07:11 2001
From: Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com (Kenneth Hirschberg)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 16:07:11 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] homebrew 20m ground mouted vertical... good idea??
References: <F47BySsxVY60mJWEsBk00001c29@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <003401c11239$e076ea50$9c67530c@ken>


Hi Josh -
By all means, go for it!  You_will_ have fun, and even more, the
satisfaction of using something that you created.  As you may know, a
ground-mounted (quarter wave) vertical is only half of the antenna.  For
20M, you can easily put in a good ground plane, so do not skimp on that.
Good luck with your project.
73, Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "Josh T" <kb0gus@hotmail.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 3:03 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] homebrew 20m ground mouted vertical... good idea??


>
> I was thinking about building a 20m vertical to ground mount. I'd like to
> build rather than buy for the fun and the price..
>
> What is everyones thought on this. Would it be worth my time? I have a
> couple of wire antennas that I've been using for years and I'm kinda
itching
> to try something new.
>
> Thanks for your comments and advice...
>
> Josh - KB0GUS
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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>
>


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From zl1aih@ihug.co.nz  Sun Jul 22 00:13:25 2001
From: zl1aih@ihug.co.nz (Ken McCormack)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 11:13:25 +1200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Horizontal Loop
In-Reply-To: <200107210352.f6L3qNA09762@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <3B5AB555.26817.64B66A@localhost>


An article "Americanizing the German Quad" appeared in a 70's 
issue of "73 Magazine" and used an open stub to achieve a 
reasonable match to open wire line for 80 through 10 for a full wave 
horizontal 80m loop.    Using a 66' feeder, 4:1 balun, 30' RG8 and L 
match to rig, I smoked a BN-86 and an Amidon kit balun with only 
100 watts.   (slow learner)   With a matchbox-type tuner, the loop 
played quite well.   Change of QTH and proliferation of PCs brought 
lots of computer noise on 80 and 40, using vertical antennas.
Another full-wave 80m loop virtually eliminated the problem.   In A to 
B tests on 80m, the loop easily outperformed the Marconi "T" (30 
buried radials) up to 1500 miles, but for DX the vertical was far 
superior as expected.   Still using the match-box and open wire line.
For DX, I use the loop for receiving.

73, Ken ZL1AIH 

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From jimr.reid@verizon.net  Sun Jul 22 00:53:16 2001
From: jimr.reid@verizon.net (Jim Reid)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:53:16 -1000
Subject: [TowerTalk] homebrew 20m ground mouted vertical... good idea??
References: <F47BySsxVY60mJWEsBk00001c29@hotmail.com> <3B59FFE3.97160D16@tcac.net>
Message-ID: <004e01c11240$631df880$a1040304@vz.dsl.genuity.net>



Some one suggested:


> If you can elevate the vertical about 10' or so and use
> 3 or 4 elevated radials...

You will be dissapointed!!  The E-field lines at the ends
of the resonant elevated radials will couple strongly to
earth at such a low height!  The result will be that both
xmit'd and rcvd signals will be down from 3 to 6 dB
from those of a horizontal dipole up 1/2 wave or so
above ground.  The strong voltage points at the radial
ends couple RF current into the soil where half or more
of your rcvd and output power will be lost to heat!!

If you put such an array up at least 1/2 wave,  or about
33 feet or so to the feedpoint of the vertical element and
the four "radials"  you will not loose so much power,  but
you also will not have the "gain" off the sides of the dipole;
but at least reasonalbe omni spreading of all of your output
power.  Also,  the radials need to be horizontal up there
at that height to avoid coupling to earth.

Out here on Kauai at WWVH,  they found they had to put
in a very extensive radial field beneath their elevated
vertical 15 mHz antennas,  which also use the down
sloping radials.  Have a look at this photo of the installation
at WWVH;  you can see the radial lines,  about 120 of
them around the antenna base.  Look under the fence
rails about the enclosure:

http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/stations/wwv.html

or a close up:

http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/images/radiostations/wwvh-large/wwvh5.j
pg

This is a 15 mHz,  1/2 wave vertical array,  with several down
sloping radials.  The ends of the radials terminate at those long
white insulators at the lower ends.  These towers are spaced
1/4 wave apart and driven 90 degrees out of phase: the
result,  a cardioid pattern favoring out at the far Western
Pacific.  Note that the feed point is up something over 1/4 wave in
height and the ends of the "radials" are up nearly an eighth
wave;  120 ground screen radials were still needed to
recover the field strength out in the Western Pacific.

73,  Jim  KH7M




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From ve9aa@nbnet.nb.ca  Sun Jul 22 01:06:41 2001
From: ve9aa@nbnet.nb.ca (Mike & Coreen Smith)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 21:06:41 -0300
Subject: [TowerTalk] Elliptical polarized yagis-results
References: <3B5AB555.26817.64B66A@localhost>
Message-ID: <002101c11242$307ca0a0$9b81a68e@mike>


Well, I got a severley underwhelming response to my query on Elliptical
Polarization. I can only guess no one here has done it before.

Well, I can tell you guys that may be wanting to try it, one thing NOT to
do.

To recap, I have a BLU(both/lower/upper) switch currently on my 8 over 8's
for 6m.(horizontal of course)
I spun the LOWER one 90degrees so I then had U=horizontal, L=Vertical and
B=Elliptical (all fed in phase)
H O W E V E R , one thing I really didn't give too much thought to at the
time was the plane that the now vertical elements
would be radiating into. Ie: mast, tower, guy wires, inverted Vee's and a HB
torsion bar @ top of tower.
Needless to say my SWR curve and beam pattern were shot !  It works like
crud. No good for anything.
3 "local" bcns all run vertical antennas were all very weak on the now
vertical beam, but still strong on the horizontal.

I think to do something similar to what I have done, (but make it work
right), the vertical yagi should be at the very top of the mast, and the top
5-6' of mast (for a 50MHz beam) should be of a non-conducting material,
PVC,FIBERGLAS,Wifes' broomstick, what-have-you.

Gonna try something similar on a test tripod out in the back yard, instead
of 50' in the air later this fall and will have (hopefully)better results to
report then.

Mike VE9AA.......

Michael, Coreen & Corey Smith
(VE9AA,  VE9AAA & Baby)
271 Smith Rd
Waterville, NB
E2V 3V6
Canada


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From alwilliams@olywa.net  Sun Jul 22 01:54:06 2001
From: alwilliams@olywa.net (Al Williams)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 17:54:06 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hum and buzz noise
References: <001e01c1122c$c9b30c20$c190fea9@cad1>
Message-ID: <000701c11248$cf490920$28daadd8@olywa>


A very good book is "AC Power Interference Manual" by Marv Loftness (kb7kk)
for locating source of power-line and Electrical Interference"

k7puc

> I realize this is an issue unrelated to towers and antenna construction
but
> would greatly appreciate
> someone pointing me in the direction of info. about powerline or other
> electrical interference.



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From Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com  Sun Jul 22 02:25:31 2001
From: Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com (Kenneth Hirschberg)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:25:31 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] homebrew 20m ground mouted vertical... good idea??
References: <F47BySsxVY60mJWEsBk00001c29@hotmail.com> <3B59FFE3.97160D16@tcac.net> <004e01c11240$631df880$a1040304@vz.dsl.genuity.net>
Message-ID: <004c01c1124d$33c75dd0$9c67530c@ken>


Jim -
I agree completely with your assessment of the expected performance of 4 low
elevated radials.
Such an arrangement takes care of current return (so will 1 radial), but
does a lousy job regarding the other fuction of  a ground plane, namely
screening the near-field from lossy earth.  ("lousy" equals about 2 to 4 dB
worse than it could be)

The main reason for this response is the reference to "radials" that
continues to be made regarding the WWVH antenna referred to.  That antenna
is essentially a coaxial sleeve type half wave vertical dipole.  The sleeve
in that case just happens to be a conical wire cage.   It has a very nice
feature, in that it can be fed underneath by coax.  The reference to the
lower part of the antenna as "radials" probably confuses many folks as to
what they are looking at.  The radial field at ground level is, of course, a
screen, not a current return, and would be just as effective if it were laid
out as perpendicular wires in a mesh, as long as the spacing was adequately
small.

Vy 73, Ken

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Reid" <jimr.reid@verizon.net>
To: <rthorne@tcac.net>; "Josh T" <kb0gus@hotmail.com>
Cc: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] homebrew 20m ground mouted vertical... good idea??


>
>
> Some one suggested:
>
>
> > If you can elevate the vertical about 10' or so and use
> > 3 or 4 elevated radials...
>
> You will be dissapointed!!  The E-field lines at the ends
> of the resonant elevated radials will couple strongly to
> earth at such a low height!  The result will be that both
> xmit'd and rcvd signals will be down from 3 to 6 dB
> from those of a horizontal dipole up 1/2 wave or so
> above ground.  The strong voltage points at the radial
> ends couple RF current into the soil where half or more
> of your rcvd and output power will be lost to heat!!
>
> If you put such an array up at least 1/2 wave,  or about
> 33 feet or so to the feedpoint of the vertical element and
> the four "radials"  you will not loose so much power,  but
> you also will not have the "gain" off the sides of the dipole;
> but at least reasonalbe omni spreading of all of your output
> power.  Also,  the radials need to be horizontal up there
> at that height to avoid coupling to earth.
>
> Out here on Kauai at WWVH,  they found they had to put
> in a very extensive radial field beneath their elevated
> vertical 15 mHz antennas,  which also use the down
> sloping radials.  Have a look at this photo of the installation
> at WWVH;  you can see the radial lines,  about 120 of
> them around the antenna base.  Look under the fence
> rails about the enclosure:
>
> http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/stations/wwv.html
>
> or a close up:
>
>
http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/images/radiostations/wwvh-large/wwvh5.j
> pg
>
> This is a 15 mHz,  1/2 wave vertical array,  with several down
> sloping radials.  The ends of the radials terminate at those long
> white insulators at the lower ends.  These towers are spaced
> 1/4 wave apart and driven 90 degrees out of phase: the
> result,  a cardioid pattern favoring out at the far Western
> Pacific.  Note that the feed point is up something over 1/4 wave in
> height and the ends of the "radials" are up nearly an eighth
> wave;  120 ground screen radials were still needed to
> recover the field strength out in the Western Pacific.
>
> 73,  Jim  KH7M
>
>
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>


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From lclarks@nc.rr.com  Sun Jul 22 04:37:50 2001
From: lclarks@nc.rr.com (Larry Stowell)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 23:37:50 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tower grounding
Message-ID: <003501c1125f$b01abd20$4d131918@larrywa2sry>


I'm just finishing the post mount for my Aluma 75ft foldover crank-up tower.
and have been reading the comments about grounding the tower. My question is
obviously I can't ground the legs and still fold it over, and the mounting
post is buried 6ft(no concrete) would it be of any use to put ground rods in
a tie them to the post?



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From ei8ic@eircom.net  Sun Jul 22 08:37:29 2001
From: ei8ic@eircom.net (Tim Makins,  EI8IC)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 08:37:29 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hum and buzz noise
References: <001e01c1122c$c9b30c20$c190fea9@cad1>
Message-ID: <010b01c11281$308fdbe0$83aca5c2@c1o1c2>


Perhaps the live and neutral wires have got reversed in your house wiring ?
Just a guess.

Tim, EI8IC

----- Original Message -----
From: "jerryc" <jerryc@netscope.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: 21 July 2001 22:33
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hum and buzz noise


>
> I realize this is an issue unrelated to towers and antenna construction
but
> would greatly appreciate
> someone pointing me in the direction of info. about powerline or other
> electrical interference.
> I am getting video noise in my tv sets (all three),  receiver noise
> (sporadic welding like sounds) and
> in intermittent (volume goes up and down but never stops) power supply hum
> on one transceiver.
> Have taken the transceiver to two other friends houses and one repair shop
> and the hum is gone but
> always returns when I get back home.  I have checked wiring and installed
> new grounds.  Turned off all power in the house except on the one circuit
> the transceiver is on (its 120vac).  Tried the same with it on a different
> circuit.  Still the hum is there.  Have unhooked the doorbell, motion
sensor
> porch light, and anything else I could think of.  Haven't called the power
> co. yet.  Want to do some
> research first.  They respond slow if at all to radio interference
> complaints.
> Thanks for any guidance.
> JerryC
> jerryc@netscope.net
> no call yet (still working on the code)
>
>
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>



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From dwatkins2@uswest.net  Sun Jul 22 08:52:07 2001
From: dwatkins2@uswest.net (Dennis Watkins)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 00:52:07 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hum and buzz noise
References: <001e01c1122c$c9b30c20$c190fea9@cad1> <010b01c11281$308fdbe0$83aca5c2@c1o1c2>
Message-ID: <003d01c11283$35202780$edaee13f@oemcomputer>


If you have the facility to put your rig on a battery, do so.
At the same time put a dummy load on the antenna input.
I think this is the best place to start.  If it isn't quiet after this,
no amout of power line filtering will help...


Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Makins, EI8IC" <ei8ic@eircom.net>
To: "TowerTalk" <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Hum and buzz noise


>
> Perhaps the live and neutral wires have got reversed in your house wiring
?
> Just a guess.
>
> Tim, EI8IC
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jerryc" <jerryc@netscope.net>
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Sent: 21 July 2001 22:33
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Hum and buzz noise
>
>
> >
> > I realize this is an issue unrelated to towers and antenna construction
> but
> > would greatly appreciate
> > someone pointing me in the direction of info. about powerline or other
> > electrical interference.
> > I am getting video noise in my tv sets (all three),  receiver noise
> > (sporadic welding like sounds) and
> > in intermittent (volume goes up and down but never stops) power supply
hum
> > on one transceiver.
> > Have taken the transceiver to two other friends houses and one repair
shop
> > and the hum is gone but
> > always returns when I get back home.  I have checked wiring and
installed
> > new grounds.  Turned off all power in the house except on the one
circuit
> > the transceiver is on (its 120vac).  Tried the same with it on a
different
> > circuit.  Still the hum is there.  Have unhooked the doorbell, motion
> sensor
> > porch light, and anything else I could think of.  Haven't called the
power
> > co. yet.  Want to do some
> > research first.  They respond slow if at all to radio interference
> > complaints.
> > Thanks for any guidance.
> > JerryC
> > jerryc@netscope.net
> > no call yet (still working on the code)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call
> us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
> to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
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> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
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>
>
>


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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Sat Jul 21 08:36:50 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 00:36:50 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Question - Routing of Coax around Rotator Shelf
References: <1010620092032.JAA08299@gate.iterated.com>
Message-ID: <3B593111.DFF6C00@easystreet.com>


Hi Bill,

I don't generally route cables inside the tower.  It is much easier to add or remove a
cable from the bundle if they are not inside the tower.

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

Bill Coleman wrote:

> I'm steadily working to put up my 44' Rohn 25 bracketed tower. While
> planning ahead, I ran across something I'm not entirely sure how to
> handle.
>
> I know that you're supposed to route all cables INSIDE the tower. This
> works for me right up to the 40' level, were the standard Rohn AS25
> rotator shelf completely blocks the tower interior. In my case, I have an
> AG3 top, so there's still a couple of feet of tower to route the cable
> within.
>
> How do others do this?
>
> * Jump around the shelf, bringing the coax back in, and up the tower leg
> before the rotation turn loop where the taper stops.
>
> * Go outside shelf, leaving the coax outside the tower before the
> rotation turn loop.
>
> * Starting the rotation turn loop at the shelf.
>
> Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
> Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
>             -- Wilbur Wright, 1901
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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>
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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Sun Jul 22 12:49:09 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 11:49:09 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Horizontal loop and balun
References: <200107210027.f6L0RAR05221@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <3B5ABDB5.2CB8A512@gloryroad.net>


Coax-through-bead baluns have another advantage.

It is impossible to tell if they have failed from the ground or SWR
reading. The only way I've been able to detect damage is if they
rattle. I suppose what you don't know can't hurt you.  

73 de Brian/K3KO


Tom Rauch wrote:
> 
> > A balun work's best when it see's a pure resistance, or nearly so.  A
> > balun at the end of a piece of coax, feeding a length of balanced line
> > that feeds an antenna, will almost be guaranteed to see a reactive load.
> 
> A choke balun cares less if the load is reactive, only voltage baluns
> (like the W2FMI style) are load impedance critical.
> 
> > A better idea would be to place the balun at the input of a balanced
> > tuner.  If there are difficulties in bringing in the balanced line to the
> > tuner, then a small section of shielded balanced line can be employed.
> 
> Placing a choke balun at the input of a tuner does nothing for
> balancing of the system, although it does reduce differential mode
> stress on the balun (which usually isn't a problem anyway if you
> use a properly constructed choke balun).
> 
> After some discussion of this in another antenna forum, Roy
> Lewallen (W7EL) did an analysis and confirmed this.
> 
> 73, Tom W8JI
> W8JI@contesting.com
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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> 
> -----
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> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
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From w5kp@swbell.net  Sun Jul 22 13:36:07 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 07:36:07 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tower grounding
References: <003501c1125f$b01abd20$4d131918@larrywa2sry>
Message-ID: <001d01c112aa$e2714960$b520c1cf@jkdesktop>


Considering how seldom one has to fold one of these things over, I think I'd
go ahead with normal grounding of the legs, and simply detach the ground
clamps or wires at the tower legs when I had occasion to fold it over. Just
be creative initially with a mechanical attachment to the legs that is easy
to remove and replace. Three more screws or bolts to remove and replace once
in a while is no big deal, and is very little hassle in return for big time
insurance. And from what I've read over the years, more ground rods attached
to the post AND the tower legs can't hurt, and will probably help, if you
spread them out around the base roughly the distance of the length of the
rods.. Consider yourself lucky to have soil you can get a ground rod into!
Because of layers of rock close to the surface, my "ground rod field" has to
be about twice as big as normal, with twice as many (shorter) rods. I don't
like it, but we do the best we can with what we have to work with.
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Stowell <lclarks@nc.rr.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 10:37 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tower grounding


>
> I'm just finishing the post mount for my Aluma 75ft foldover crank-up
tower.
> and have been reading the comments about grounding the tower. My question
is
> obviously I can't ground the legs and still fold it over, and the mounting
> post is buried 6ft(no concrete) would it be of any use to put ground rods
in
> a tie them to the post?
>
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>


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From franknorton@home.com  Sun Jul 22 14:53:28 2001
From: franknorton@home.com (Frank Norton)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:53:28 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hum and buzz noise
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010722085747.009fe0b0@mail.baycty1.mi.home.com>


An email was sent privately to Jerry but then I began to wonder how many 
folks have been thru this kind of thing so here is what I recommended,

First of all:  CALL THE POWER COMPANY!!!  TELL THEM YOU ARE HAVING BROWN 
OUTS.  THAT YOUR LIGHTS GO DIM, YOUR TV'S PICTURES CHANGE AND HUM COMES 
FROM ALL THE PARTS YOU RELATE IN YOUR POST.  All capital letters means i'm 
yelling, and yes, i'm yelling because you are in serious danger!   Some may 
seem like exaggeration but it's not, u just haven't noticed it yet (it may 
be going on while the equipment and lights are off.)

You may have a bad transformer connected to your house at best.  At worst 
you will have a massive voltage spike ar any time that will blow out all of 
your valuable electronic gear, causing a fire if u are not at home (or God 
forbid u are asleep) to put it out when your TV bursts into flames (the 
capacitors will explode-->phosphorus release and-----> FIRE!!!!!!  If u 
live thru all these bad things that can happen and only burn up ur tv and 
rig etc., u'll find the insurance company won't pay....they will tell u to 
collect from power company which takes forever.

I hope u have figured out that I am speaking from experience.  My wife and 
I could have been killed in a similar problem several years ago. The 
following occurred in Libertyville Illinois, about 50 miles north of 
Chicago.    I was a technician class ham and should have known better than 
to wait as long as I did.  It started just like u describe....a hum in a 
radio.  Then the TV volume would spike or the picture would flicker and 
occasionally change size or shape.  Then it got worse, and the refrigerator 
started to change temperature....some days it would sour milk and other 
days it would freeze it (not solid, just crystals in the milk).  These are 
not major symptoms to us are they?  I blamed it on appliance defects, or 
line noise etc. but then.....I came home to find the fire department and 
the electric company at our mobile home, and all the others in the 
park.  Our TV had an electrical fire.  U know, the kind where the thing 
stinks but no flames...luckily my wife recognized the smell and called both 
the fire dept. and electric co. (I had been calling the electric co. to ask 
questions for a few days).

We lost our TV, refrigerator, several small appliances, and my entire ham 
setup except a hand held for 2 meters that was not in the charger.  We also 
had "smoke" damage to the carpets and furniture.  The voltage had spiked so 
badly that it did all this in a few minutes or a few weeks....we never got 
a proper answer from the electric company.  Similar things were found in 
many of our neighbors homes.

In anticipation of some questions--Yes they paid for everything but it took 
about 6 months as we recall.  If we had not been awake it could have killed 
us. It was all due to a bad transformer station about 1/4 mile from our 
trailer park.  It went bad and could have killed many of us.  These days we 
would have known to band together after it happened in a class action suit 
and get damages properly.

I hope u will unplug ur electronic gear and call the electric company to 
report ur problem in words like those up in the all caps section.  Ur lives 
could depend on it!!!  If ur problem is not as severe, the power company 
will at least fix anything wrong on their side of the meter/service entrance.

They will usually point out many errors in your wiring as well in order to 
assist clean-up of ur electric service.  They will check ur ground, ur 
service hook-up and anything up to the box.  Most of the service people I 
have had do evaluations on our homes (we have our home service checked at 
least every 3 or 4 years since the near miss) are very good about checking 
all the possibilities once u get them to ur house.  Ur correct though, if 
all you say is that u have receiver noise...they will probably never leave 
the office.  Hence the need to clarify, in no uncertain terms, that 
something is seriously wrong with ur electrical service.

U really can't lose by calling and reporting these symptoms.  If u 
emphasize ur concern...as noted above...."welding noises" can be serious 
and indicate impending danger.  Ur power company will act quickly to 
evaluate ur situation.

Until u get them out to check ur service thoroughly---at minimum all of ur 
equipment, TV, refrigerator motor and any other electric equipment (like 
ham gear) are in jeopardy.

73,

Frank Norton
survivor of a near miss.

  At 05:33 PM 7/21/2001 -0400, jerryc wrote:

I realize this is an issue unrelated to towers and antenna construction but
would greatly appreciate
someone pointing me in the direction of info. about powerline or other
electrical interference.
I am getting video noise in my tv sets (all three),  receiver noise
(sporadic welding like sounds) and
in intermittent (volume goes up and down but never stops) power supply hum
on one transceiver.
Have taken the transceiver to two other friends houses and one repair shop
and the hum is gone but
always returns when I get back home.  I have checked wiring and installed
new grounds.  Turned off all power in the house except on the one circuit
the transceiver is on (its 120vac).  Tried the same with it on a different
circuit.  Still the hum is there.  Have unhooked the doorbell, motion sensor
porch light, and anything else I could think of.  Haven't called the power
co. yet.  Want to do some
research first.  They respond slow if at all to radio interference
complaints.
Thanks for any guidance.
JerryC
jerryc@netscope.net
no call yet (still working on the code)







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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Sun Jul 22 15:23:33 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 10:23:33 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tower grounding
Message-ID: <001e01c112b9$e7b91240$3384c640@spelunk.sueno>


Larry:

     I agree with Jerry:  By all means, install ground rods and connect your
tower legs to them, per Polyphaser's recommendations.  Also, check out Bill
N3RR's web page www.erols.com/n3rr for grounding design info.  Just be
mindful that your tower is aluminum so make sure you use ground clamps made
of material that's compatible with the tower and (copper?) ground conductor.
Champion Radio Products has some stainless steel tower leg clamps that use
worm gears to tighten around the tower legs.  You may want to consider
greasing the worm drive slightly to prevent corrosion, as you'd be loosening
and tightening your clamps, whereas most folks set 'em and forget 'em.
Also, Don't attach the clamps too close to ground level.  This will put a
right-angle turn in  your ground wire, increasing its inductance at that
point.  If you connect up higher on the leg, your wire will have a gentle
curve to it as it enters the earth.

GL es 73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: J. Kincade <w5kp@swbell.net>
To: Larry Stowell <lclarks@nc.rr.com>; towertalk@contesting.com
<towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Sunday, July 22, 2001 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower grounding


>
>Considering how seldom one has to fold one of these things over, I think
I'd
>go ahead with normal grounding of the legs, and simply detach the ground
>clamps or wires at the tower legs when I had occasion to fold it over. Just
>be creative initially with a mechanical attachment to the legs that is easy
>to remove and replace. Three more screws or bolts to remove and replace
once
>in a while is no big deal, and is very little hassle in return for big time
>insurance. And from what I've read over the years, more ground rods
attached
>to the post AND the tower legs can't hurt, and will probably help, if you
>spread them out around the base roughly the distance of the length of the
>rods.. Consider yourself lucky to have soil you can get a ground rod into!
>Because of layers of rock close to the surface, my "ground rod field" has
to
>be about twice as big as normal, with twice as many (shorter) rods. I don't
>like it, but we do the best we can with what we have to work with.
>73, Jerry W5KP
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Larry Stowell <lclarks@nc.rr.com>
>To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
>Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 10:37 PM
>Subject: [TowerTalk] Tower grounding
>
>
>>
>> I'm just finishing the post mount for my Aluma 75ft foldover crank-up
>tower.
>> and have been reading the comments about grounding the tower. My question
>is
>> obviously I can't ground the legs and still fold it over, and the
mounting
>> post is buried 6ft(no concrete) would it be of any use to put ground rods
>in
>> a tie them to the post?
>>
>>
>>
>> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
>us
>> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
>to
>> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
>HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>>
>> -----
>> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
>> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
>> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
>> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>>
>>
>
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
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>Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
>Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
>Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>


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From Harvey Luke" <km4ja@snowhill.com  Sun Jul 22 15:24:54 2001
From: Harvey Luke" <km4ja@snowhill.com (Harvey Luke)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:24:54 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Adding copper in the ground
References: <005b01c11187$089c4240$a583c640@spelunk.sueno> <004901c11193$670610c0$a709b8d1@jkdesktop>
Message-ID: <004d01c112ba$1417b6c0$0c4efea9@km4ja>


A broadcast engineer friend of mine (who is also a ham) always recommends
this time of ground whenever he initiates a new tower installation.

73
Harvey, KM4JA
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Kincade <w5kp@swbell.net>
To: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; Milcarsky
<jamvet@bellsouth.net>; TowerTalk <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Adding copper in the ground


>
> With the new 45G (concrete arrives at 0730 tomorrow) I'm trying something
I
> haven't seen mentioned, hope it works ok. I placed a 6' long strip of 8"
> wide heavy gauge solid copper roofing material in the base hole, covered
> with a few inches of gravel. The strip runs across the bottom of the hole
> under the gravel, then up and out one side of the hole with about 6" to
> spare outside the hole. It's spiked to the side of the hole with a half
> dozen 8" spiral bridge nails (just to hold it solid while the concrete's
> poured). I plan to tie this copper sheet into the other ground setup for
the
> tower legs, which will be several (at least 6) copper clad ground rods in
a
> circle about a 6' radius around the base of the tower, all tied in with #4
> copper to all three legs. Don't know if the copper sheet under the tower
> base will help dissipate strikes, but I figured it wouldn't hurt and I had
> it on hand. My theory is anything that adds copper contact to the ground,
> especially down deeper where things stay fairly damp, can only help. Has
> anybody that's tried this got any comments? The tower will sit on a Rohn
> pier pin in the center of a concrete pad that will measure about 3' square
> by 3-1/2 feet deep. Concrete will be a fairly stiff mix of 3000 psi
28-day.
> No rebar in the base pad (compression load only), but lots of rebar in the
> guy anchor pads. The fun part will be trying to properly finish the base
top
> around the pier pin area with an ever-so-slight slope in all directions
away
> from the pier pin, so that water doesn't collect and stand under the tower
> base plate. Needless to say, a concrete finisher I ain't.  :-)
> Jerry W5KP
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>
> To: Milcarsky <jamvet@bellsouth.net>; TowerTalk <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 8:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
>
>
> >
> > Ed:
> >
> >      I'm planning on putting the arrestors at the base of my tower,
bolted
> > to the insides of a metallic Hoffman box or similar.  From the box the
> coax
> > and control cable runs will be in 3 inch sch 40 buried conduit to the
> > house/shack.  The alternative is to put the arrestors in a box just
> outside
> > the house at the end of the conduit run and ground at that point, as
most
> > commercial installations have it.
> >
> >      My thinking is that the ground field for a lightning strike
> originates
> > at the tower, where all the underground radials connect to the tower
legs.
> > Here the inductance of multiple parallel ground legs will be less than
at
> > the entrance to the house/shack, fifty feet from the tower, where I will
> > have only one radial to which to connect the arrestors' grounds.  (I'm
not
> > planning on encircling my house with buried copper ground wires.)  I'd
> > rather have the arrestors far away from the house and let them do their
> work
> > in a low-inductance part of the ground field, rather than close to the
> > house.
> >
> >      I agree with Steve, though - keep the single-point ground outside
of
> > your house.  Its connection into earth will be shorter and the lightning
> > energy is less likely to get into your house wiring.   And don't put a
> bend
> > in your ground wire from the coax runs.  Keep it as straight as possible
> > such that the lightning energy continues to move in a downward direction
> to
> > a metallic ground connection.
> >
> > GL es 73 de
> > Gene Smar  AD3F
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Milcarsky <jamvet@bellsouth.net>
> > To: TowerTalk <towertalk@contesting.com>
> > Date: Friday, July 20, 2001 7:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
> >
> >
> > >
> > >Steve,
> > >
> > >It's clear that grounding the coax at the tower base, before it bends
> > toward
> > >the shack is the right thing to do.  However, I have only heard that
the
> > >coax shield should be grounded at this point.  Why not also place an
> > >arrestor for the center conductor at this point as well?  It would seem
> > that
> > >this would afford a certain amount of extra protection.  What are your
> > >thoughts?
> > >
> > >Ed  KG4ARN
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: <K7LXC@aol.com>
> > >To: <kq2m@mags.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
> > >Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 6:14 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
> > >>     Commercial specs call for grounding cables that come down the
tower
> > >> *before* they turn towards the building. The cables should be
grounded
> > >> directly to the tower at that point to offer the lowest resistance
path
> > to
> > >> ground. The bend in the cables introduces inductance at that point so
> you
> > >> want to be grounded before that so the lightning energy will go there
> to
> > >> ground.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call
> > us
> > >for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
up
> to
> > >96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> > HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > >www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> > >
> > >-----
> > >FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > >Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > >Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > >Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > >
> >
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call
> us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
> to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
> >
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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From K7LXC@aol.com  Sun Jul 22 15:35:05 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 10:35:05 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
Message-ID: <113.204a799.288c3e99@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/20/01 6:46:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net writes:

>     I'm planning on putting the arrestors at the base of my tower, bolted
>  to the insides of a metallic Hoffman box or similar.  From the box the coax
>  and control cable runs will be in 3 inch sch 40 buried conduit to the
>  house/shack.  The alternative is to put the arrestors in a box just outside
>  the house at the end of the conduit run and ground at that point, as most
>  commercial installations have it.
>  
>       My thinking is that the ground field for a lightning strike originates
>  at the tower, where all the underground radials connect to the tower legs.
>  Here the inductance of multiple parallel ground legs will be less than at
>  the entrance to the house/shack, fifty feet from the tower, where I will
>  have only one radial to which to connect the arrestors' grounds.  (I'm not
>  planning on encircling my house with buried copper ground wires.)  I'd
>  rather have the arrestors far away from the house and let them do their 
work
>  in a low-inductance part of the ground field, rather than close to the
>  house.

    I wouldn't recommend this course of action. A direct hit is only ONE way 
that lightning transients occur. Another significant one is an induced ground 
surge from a nearby strike. It doesn't even have to be very close to do 
damage. In the case of a ground surge, anything buried can be a problem and 
the lightning charge has got nothing to do with a tower strike. The whole 
idea of a ground system is to have everything at the same potential so that 
the energy rises and falls at the same rate everywhere. When that happens, 
there's no arcing which is what causes most of the damage. 

    In any case, the surges still come along the cables and having transient 
arrestors at the tower does nothing to prevent a ground surge from getting 
into the house. While the conduit may give you some Faraday shield 
protection, lightning paths to ground don't always go where you want them to. 
So unless your arrestors at the Single Point ground bus at the building 
entry, they're not doing anything worthwhile. 

    The other way that lightning charges can get into your building is 
induced through utility wires coming into the building. These can come from 
miles away. This includes power, telephone, and TV cable; all of which need 
to be grounded, protected, and connected to the SPGS.

    Also the idea of tower cable shields being connected to the tower means 
that you're trying to give a low resistance and inductance path to ground. 
Any bend in the conductors will encourage the surge to take another path  
which means you really want a straight line to ground or if you need to bend 
something, make it a real gradual bend - no sharp bends at all. I get the 
idea that a box at the bottom of the tower with some sort of grounding 
function will interrupt the straight-line lightning path which means you're 
compromising your ground system again. 

    You want to have the cables grounded to the tower at the bottom of the 
tower before the cables bend towards the building and you want to have your 
lightning arrestors at the building entry attached to the Single Point ground 
bus. This is the standard commercial practice. Any other designs are not as 
effective and may be totally ineffective. 

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From n4kg@juno.com  Sun Jul 22 16:14:29 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:14:29 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tower grounding
Message-ID: <20010722.093411.-142251.1.N4KG@juno.com>


I *assume* that the tilt over post is made of metal.
I *assume* that there is a mechanical / electrical
connection between the tilt over post and the tower.

Therefore, I *conclude* that the tower is grounded 
through the tiltover post.

What am I missing here?

FWIW,  ALL  7 of my towers are 'in the ground'.
NO concrete, NO ground rods, NO radials, and
NO Lightning damage / hits to the towers in >20
years.  Tower heights are 40, 55, 75, 80, 95, 130
135 ft. I have seen lightning or evidence of lightning
strikes to neighbors utility poles and trees.

One more thing, ALL of my coaxial feedlines, 
mostly CATV hardline but some RG-213,  go down
to the ground and are routed in shallow open trenches.

de  Tom  N4KG




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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Sun Jul 22 17:53:38 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 12:53:38 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack
Message-ID: <004b01c112cf$9bd76780$3384c640@spelunk.sueno>


Steve:

     Thanks for the thoughtful comments (as usual.)  Regarding the metallic
enclosure at the base of the tower, I plan on grounding the shield of the
coaxes to the tower leg BEFORE they turn horizontal and enter the side of
the box.  The Trylon has ample flat angled pieces to which I can fasten the
ground clamps while still keeping the ground lead running in a vertical
direction (the same direction as the lightning energy from the top of the
tower.)  So we agree on that point.

     On the position of arrestors, I understand your argument, but with my
configuration, I believe the risk of an underground induction of lightning
current to be minimal.  I've had several lengths of direct-buried coax for
my EWEs and 160M inverted L antennas in operation for about three years now,
with no lightning damage to either the house or the shack equipment.  Have
heard of no lightning damage to others' homes in the neighborhood in my 18
years of living here, other than one strike to a chimney (which was
surrounded by 80-foot tall oak trees, BTW.)

     In addition, the earth connection at the SPG in my tower installation
will be to a ground rod at the END of one tower radial (fifty feet long.)
If my tower were to take a direct hit, the energy on the interior of the
coax will have to be shunted to ground by the arrestor at this single,
distant ground connection (the shield's energy will be shunted to ground by
the two shield connections at the top and bottom of the tower, hopefully).

     In other words, I prefer to shunt a direct tower hit to ground at the
base of the tower where there are three low-inductance connections to earth,
rather than to one ground rod at the end of a long single ground conductor.
I'm discounting as very unlikely, based on experience at AD3F, the
possibility of lightning energy from a nearby hit being coupled to the
underground portion of my coax runs.

     But I still have a few weeks before I install the coax.  I'll give your
advice some more thought.  Thanks again.

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
P.S.  The Sch 40 conduit will be PVC, not metallic.  Important distinction.
-----Original Message-----
From: K7LXC@aol.com <K7LXC@aol.com>
To: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>;
jamvet@bellsouth.net <jamvet@bellsouth.net>; towertalk@contesting.com
<towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Sunday, July 22, 2001 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Routing cables - tower to shack


>
>In a message dated 7/20/01 6:46:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net writes:
>
>>     I'm planning on putting the arrestors at the base of my tower, bolted
>>  to the insides of a metallic Hoffman box or similar.  From the box the
coax
>>  and control cable runs will be in 3 inch sch 40 buried conduit to the
>>  house/shack.  The alternative is to put the arrestors in a box just
outside
>>  the house at the end of the conduit run and ground at that point, as
most
>>  commercial installations have it.
>>
>>       My thinking is that the ground field for a lightning strike
originates
>>  at the tower, where all the underground radials connect to the tower
legs.
>>  Here the inductance of multiple parallel ground legs will be less than
at
>>  the entrance to the house/shack, fifty feet from the tower, where I will
>>  have only one radial to which to connect the arrestors' grounds.  (I'm
not
>>  planning on encircling my house with buried copper ground wires.)  I'd
>>  rather have the arrestors far away from the house and let them do their
>work
>>  in a low-inductance part of the ground field, rather than close to the
>>  house.
>
>    I wouldn't recommend this course of action. A direct hit is only ONE
way
>that lightning transients occur. Another significant one is an induced
ground
>surge from a nearby strike. It doesn't even have to be very close to do
>damage. In the case of a ground surge, anything buried can be a problem and
>the lightning charge has got nothing to do with a tower strike. The whole
>idea of a ground system is to have everything at the same potential so that
>the energy rises and falls at the same rate everywhere. When that happens,
>there's no arcing which is what causes most of the damage.
>
>    In any case, the surges still come along the cables and having
transient
>arrestors at the tower does nothing to prevent a ground surge from getting
>into the house. While the conduit may give you some Faraday shield
>protection, lightning paths to ground don't always go where you want them
to.
>So unless your arrestors at the Single Point ground bus at the building
>entry, they're not doing anything worthwhile.
>
>    The other way that lightning charges can get into your building is
>induced through utility wires coming into the building. These can come from
>miles away. This includes power, telephone, and TV cable; all of which need
>to be grounded, protected, and connected to the SPGS.
>
>    Also the idea of tower cable shields being connected to the tower means
>that you're trying to give a low resistance and inductance path to ground.
>Any bend in the conductors will encourage the surge to take another path
>which means you really want a straight line to ground or if you need to
bend
>something, make it a real gradual bend - no sharp bends at all. I get the
>idea that a box at the bottom of the tower with some sort of grounding
>function will interrupt the straight-line lightning path which means you're
>compromising your ground system again.
>
>    You want to have the cables grounded to the tower at the bottom of the
>tower before the cables bend towards the building and you want to have your
>lightning arrestors at the building entry attached to the Single Point
ground
>bus. This is the standard commercial practice. Any other designs are not as
>effective and may be totally ineffective.
>
>Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
>Tower Tech
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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>
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>


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From n4zr@contesting.com  Sun Jul 22 18:51:47 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:51:47 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010722135147.009e4170@mail.abs.adelphia.net>


Yesterday I visited a big new multiop station, and was able to be a fly on
the wall during discussions among a number of experienced, big-station
builders.  Almost without exception, they seemed seriously daunted by the
idea of trying to install and maintain an 80m yagi, even one less than full
size, and even in our relatively benign climate.  The air was full of tales
of antennas that lasted three weeks or less, and costly failures

I freely admit my lack of experience with these beasts, but I don't get it.
Why should design of mechanically durable 80-meter loaded yagis be that
much tougher than, for example, a full-size 40M yagi of equivalent element
count?  Surely, the mechanical design software currently available can tell
you what to do to make a75%-scale 80m yagi survive 80, or 90, or 100 MPH
winds.  I understand that cost is a factor, but once you buy the hardware,
why shouldn't you be able to have a mechanical failure rate comparable to
that experienced with other yagis?  

My suspicion is that the hardware probably needs to be beefier than most
people's intuition and judgment usually tell them, and that failures
probably result in some part from not working the design problem hard
enough to start with.

Am I all wet?

73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From K7LXC@aol.com  Sun Jul 22 19:30:08 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 14:30:08 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] homebrew 20m ground mouted vertical... good idea??
Message-ID: <118.2016aff.288c75b0@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/21/01 3:48:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
alsopb@gloryroad.net writes:

> > I was thinking about building a 20m vertical to ground mount. I'd like to
>  > build rather than buy for the fun and the price..
>  > 
    Go for it! MANY of the EU hams you work are using such a ground plane and 
they work FB.

Cheers,   Steve      K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Sun Jul 22 19:37:00 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 14:37:00 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tower grounding
Message-ID: <e.fedddf2.288c774c@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/21/01 8:39:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
lclarks@nc.rr.com writes:

> I'm just finishing the post mount for my Aluma 75ft foldover crank-up tower.
>  and have been reading the comments about grounding the tower. My question 
is
>  obviously I can't ground the legs and still fold it over, and the mounting
>  post is buried 6ft(no concrete) would it be of any use to put ground rods 
in
>  a tie them to the post?

    Yes, you still need to have your tower grounded per the National 
Electrical Code and grounding standards.

Cheers,   Steve   K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From n3rr@erols.com  Sun Jul 22 20:03:05 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:03:05 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010722135147.009e4170@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPCEDBCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>


Pete,

You are not "all wet".  You just lack the experience in putting
one of these "monsters" up.  Here's the situation:

An 80M Yagi (of any element count) has elements TWICE as long as a
full-size 40M Yagi. That's the basic problem.  Elements that are 130-some
feet long
just can't be made "horizontal" and also be able to be put up at heights
over
120 feet high and still be made of reasonable material, be
within the cost of most all of us, and withstand wind/ice, even the
wind/ice in MD!!!  It's not a physically realizable objective for
99.9% of us.  The other 0.1% of hams who could afford to do this and did
include W3MSK (W3AU), ON4UN, K2GL and a couple others. Antennas, BTW, that
did not stay up very long.  (I'm sure we will be told of some that are still
standing!)

So, let's look at today's "reasonable" 80M Yagis. These are the linear
loaded
variety whose element lengths are 2/3rds, or so, the length of a full size
beam.

Linear loading itself adds issues: potential arcing and arc-over, increases
the "height" dimension of the antenna,
and adds wind loading to the shortened element.  If the linear loading is
inductive, the antenna is more reasonable
in size (like K1DQV's) and easier to handle.  N3HBX has the F12 3 ele 80M
linear loaded Yagi. This antenna has guy struts on each element as well as
on the boom in addition to linear loading wires on each element!!

Add to that the element length is now 85 feet.  This is no easy task to
install and keep in the air either.
In my case, I have a F12 EF-180C rotatable dipole.  I had to add a
phillistran boom guy to each element half
else it would droop and arc over to the linear loading wires OR droop and
break the linear loading wires. In fact, it did break and that's what caused
me to add the phillistran. I sell a $25 video on the mods I made to this
antenna just to keep it in the air at 149 ft. See: www.erols.com/n3rr

This is after my experience with an EF 180A, a smaller antenna (tip to tip)
but with more linear loading
that was a real "pain" to install.  My 80M rotatable dipole experiences span
a period of 4 years with arc-over, breakage, wind damage, broken elements,
element-to-mast clamp insufficiency, etc. You name it, I had it.  I had much
experience climbing up/down my tower fixing these antennas.

An 80M Yagi (or rotatable dipole) at 150 feet has special considerations.
That's why compromises such as linear loading
shortened elements need to be considered.

All this to say, Pete, yes, stories abound about 80M rotatable Yagis. They
are legend and will continue to be.

73,

Bill, N3RR

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Pete Smith
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 1:52 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?



Yesterday I visited a big new multiop station, and was able to be a fly on
the wall during discussions among a number of experienced, big-station
builders.  Almost without exception, they seemed seriously daunted by the
idea of trying to install and maintain an 80m yagi, even one less than full
size, and even in our relatively benign climate.  The air was full of tales
of antennas that lasted three weeks or less, and costly failures

I freely admit my lack of experience with these beasts, but I don't get it.
Why should design of mechanically durable 80-meter loaded yagis be that
much tougher than, for example, a full-size 40M yagi of equivalent element
count?  Surely, the mechanical design software currently available can tell
you what to do to make a75%-scale 80m yagi survive 80, or 90, or 100 MPH
winds.  I understand that cost is a factor, but once you buy the hardware,
why shouldn't you be able to have a mechanical failure rate comparable to
that experienced with other yagis?

My suspicion is that the hardware probably needs to be beefier than most
people's intuition and judgment usually tell them, and that failures
probably result in some part from not working the design problem hard
enough to start with.

Am I all wet?

73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From w5kp@swbell.net  Sun Jul 22 20:16:13 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 14:16:13 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
References: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPCEDBCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>
Message-ID: <00b301c112e2$c74548c0$2021c1cf@jkdesktop>


Sounds like a job for big dollar materials like tapered carbon-graphite
tubing. Surely with the advances in graphite composites, there's something
out there that would be both featherweight and super stiff, if one had the
unlimited bucks to buy it, that is. Using the right space age materials, a
full size 2-el 160 might might even soon be possible, if it's not already.
I'm surprised somebody isn't making a 50 lb full size 3-el 40 out of
graphite tubing already, for those hams with big wallets. It's fun to watch
progress being made in these areas.
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hider <n3rr@erols.com>
To: Pete Smith <n4zr@contesting.com>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 2:03 PM
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?


>
> Pete,
>
> You are not "all wet".  You just lack the experience in putting
> one of these "monsters" up.  Here's the situation:
>
> An 80M Yagi (of any element count) has elements TWICE as long as a
> full-size 40M Yagi. That's the basic problem.  Elements that are 130-some
> feet long
> just can't be made "horizontal" and also be able to be put up at heights
> over
> 120 feet high and still be made of reasonable material, be
> within the cost of most all of us, and withstand wind/ice, even the
> wind/ice in MD!!!  It's not a physically realizable objective for
> 99.9% of us.  The other 0.1% of hams who could afford to do this and did
> include W3MSK (W3AU), ON4UN, K2GL and a couple others. Antennas, BTW, that
> did not stay up very long.  (I'm sure we will be told of some that are
still
> standing!)
>
> So, let's look at today's "reasonable" 80M Yagis. These are the linear
> loaded
> variety whose element lengths are 2/3rds, or so, the length of a full size
> beam.
>
> Linear loading itself adds issues: potential arcing and arc-over,
increases
> the "height" dimension of the antenna,
> and adds wind loading to the shortened element.  If the linear loading is
> inductive, the antenna is more reasonable
> in size (like K1DQV's) and easier to handle.  N3HBX has the F12 3 ele 80M
> linear loaded Yagi. This antenna has guy struts on each element as well as
> on the boom in addition to linear loading wires on each element!!
>
> Add to that the element length is now 85 feet.  This is no easy task to
> install and keep in the air either.
> In my case, I have a F12 EF-180C rotatable dipole.  I had to add a
> phillistran boom guy to each element half
> else it would droop and arc over to the linear loading wires OR droop and
> break the linear loading wires. In fact, it did break and that's what
caused
> me to add the phillistran. I sell a $25 video on the mods I made to this
> antenna just to keep it in the air at 149 ft. See: www.erols.com/n3rr
>
> This is after my experience with an EF 180A, a smaller antenna (tip to
tip)
> but with more linear loading
> that was a real "pain" to install.  My 80M rotatable dipole experiences
span
> a period of 4 years with arc-over, breakage, wind damage, broken elements,
> element-to-mast clamp insufficiency, etc. You name it, I had it.  I had
much
> experience climbing up/down my tower fixing these antennas.
>
> An 80M Yagi (or rotatable dipole) at 150 feet has special considerations.
> That's why compromises such as linear loading
> shortened elements need to be considered.
>
> All this to say, Pete, yes, stories abound about 80M rotatable Yagis. They
> are legend and will continue to be.
>
> 73,
>
> Bill, N3RR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Pete Smith
> Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 1:52 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
>
>
>
> Yesterday I visited a big new multiop station, and was able to be a fly on
> the wall during discussions among a number of experienced, big-station
> builders.  Almost without exception, they seemed seriously daunted by the
> idea of trying to install and maintain an 80m yagi, even one less than
full
> size, and even in our relatively benign climate.  The air was full of
tales
> of antennas that lasted three weeks or less, and costly failures
>
> I freely admit my lack of experience with these beasts, but I don't get
it.
> Why should design of mechanically durable 80-meter loaded yagis be that
> much tougher than, for example, a full-size 40M yagi of equivalent element
> count?  Surely, the mechanical design software currently available can
tell
> you what to do to make a75%-scale 80m yagi survive 80, or 90, or 100 MPH
> winds.  I understand that cost is a factor, but once you buy the hardware,
> why shouldn't you be able to have a mechanical failure rate comparable to
> that experienced with other yagis?
>
> My suspicion is that the hardware probably needs to be beefier than most
> people's intuition and judgment usually tell them, and that failures
> probably result in some part from not working the design problem hard
> enough to start with.
>
> Am I all wet?
>
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> No, no ... that's WEST Virginia
>
>
>
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>
>
>
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> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
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>
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>
>


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From k3hx@juno.com  Sun Jul 22 20:42:45 2001
From: k3hx@juno.com (tttt ccccc)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:42:45 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] homebrew 20m ground mouted vertical... good idea??
Message-ID: <20010722.154254.-418055.1.k3hx@juno.com>


OM,

It will likely not work as well as a dipole.  Nevertheless, it will be a
fun project and

won't cost a lot.  I'd use aluminum EMT in 1" with the bottom sitting on
a Coke

bottle and a few guys........low cost.

Or, you could get some aluminum tubing from a deceased CB antenna (the
radiator

on a 5/8 wave Super Thunder Talker Lightning Pro-XL Deluxe Radio Rambo 

Commando Force Field Projector) is just about right and it has a dandy
attachment

at the base for a mast pounded in the ground.

Or, some tubing from Texas Towers and mount it on a wooden post with
ceramic

stand-off insulators.....see the ARRL Handbook.

Hang a loading/matching coil on the bottom and it will work (albeit
poorly) on 40

and 30 as well.  For 20m, 15 radials, each 1/4 wave long should do you
well.

Enjoy!

73

Tim  K3HX

CW Elitist

QRP Snob

Old Fart

20 wpm Extra


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From n4zr@contesting.com  Sun Jul 22 20:28:45 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:28:45 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
In-Reply-To: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPCEDBCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20010722135147.009e4170@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010722152845.0096e8e0@mail.abs.adelphia.net>


Bill, if you take a hard look at my message, I was never talking about
full-size 80m yagis.  I agree, those are few and far between -- but what I
was talking about is antennas like the M2 3-element yagi.  I understand
that many of the problems caused by the linear loading on this antenna can
be solved by retrofitting coil loading, which is also supposed to yield
improved efficiency and a better pattern.

I guess I'm still not convinced -- the problems that you and others have
had seem, with the benefit of hindsight, to have been predictable.  Too
much California engineering in non-California climates, for one thing, and
maybe a case of "naw don't bother to do the calculation -- it looks like it
will work to me..."

73, Pete N4ZR






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From gdixon@fmtc.net  Sun Jul 22 20:36:22 2001
From: gdixon@fmtc.net (Gary Dixon)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:36:22 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
References: <3.0.6.32.20010722135147.009e4170@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <017001c112e5$97aa0f80$2fbda6a5@hppav>


Pete, I have had a Create 2 element yagi up in the air at about 120 feet
since 1990 and it has been through every weather condition you can imagine.
I also have a 2 element Cushcraft 40 Meter yagi 10 feet over the 75 meter
yagi.

I purchased the Create yagi from a local W4 in 1989 right after it went
through Hurricane Hugo and three hours of 120 MPH wind without any damage.

The construction of the Create 75 meter beam is great. It has a 3" boom and
the elements are 88 feet long. The elements have coils near the ends (no
Traps) and NO linear loading which always causes problems in the long run
with all the mechanical connections.

I have had to take it down two times in ten years. One for a bad balun and
another due to a lightening strike which damaged an insulator.

Taking this antenna up or down is accomplished via the "trolley line
method". The yagi is suspended under a big rope that is about 6-8 feet above
the top of the tower and is pulled up on a pulley riding the rope.

It usually takes several hours of preparation to take it down and about 2
minutes for it to reach the ground or the top of the tower when it is being
reinstalled. A crew of 5-6 men usually has to be available for this event.

This antenna, even though is not a full size 75meter yagi, makes my Mosley
PRO-57 on the next tower look like a toy.

The 75 & 40 Meter yagi's are turned with a Prop Pitch (old W0MLY
construction) which has performed flawless.

This installation even causes me to think twice when I look at it. I say to
my self, Gary you must have been crazy to start this project. Well ten to
eleven years ago I was stronger, legs and knees in better shape and not as
wise. Hi Hi

I am planning to install a full size 75 meter 4 Square to replace this
monster, because one day I will not be able to manage this big monster by
myself as I could do with a 4 Square.

O'Yes, this antenna is also a KILLER on 30 meters. It displays all the gain
and front-to-back of a 2 element 30 Meter yagi.

Having fun with it while I can, but its a big handful.

73's & DX,
 Gary, K4MQG (South Carolina)

DXCC=369
5 Band WAZ, #1 USA
DXCC: 80M=337, 40M=342, 30M=324, 20M=365, 17M=326, 15M=354, 12M=314, 10M=337


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From n3rr@erols.com  Sun Jul 22 20:49:52 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:49:52 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010722152845.0096e8e0@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPGEDCCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>


Right you are Pete.
The East Coast WX was the stimulus that caused the design changes.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Pete Smith
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 3:29 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?



Bill, if you take a hard look at my message, I was never talking about
full-size 80m yagis.  I agree, those are few and far between -- but what I
was talking about is antennas like the M2 3-element yagi.  I understand
that many of the problems caused by the linear loading on this antenna can
be solved by retrofitting coil loading, which is also supposed to yield
improved efficiency and a better pattern.

I guess I'm still not convinced -- the problems that you and others have
had seem, with the benefit of hindsight, to have been predictable.  Too
much California engineering in non-California climates, for one thing, and
maybe a case of "naw don't bother to do the calculation -- it looks like it
will work to me..."

73, Pete N4ZR






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From coneal@ma.ultranet.com  Sun Jul 22 20:53:40 2001
From: coneal@ma.ultranet.com (Chuck O'Neal)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:53:40 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
Message-ID: <01C112C6.7AE2E800@h0000949882e8.ne.mediaone.net>



Not really.

I bought a KLM 80M-3, a 3 E 75M yagi in 1984 and had it up 9
years.  I modified it by adding Phillystran to side guy the elements and the
boom. I did not change any of the materials supplied by KLM.  That is why
I had to take it down 10 years later.  Some of the SS hardware in the
overhead guying for the linear loading was 400 series and
rusted to the point of failure. This antenna survived hurricane
Gloria with peak winds of 105 MPH at my QTH.  It would still
be up today if I didn't lose interest in 75M DXing.  I rebuilt this antena and
never bothered to put it back up.  

I know where it can be had for $2500. (Not me, I sold it)

You need the large prop pitch rotator, not those small to medium ones, I
went through two of them.  Also, the tower must have torque arms on it.  
Make sure the rotor plate is at the torque arm assembly so no
torsional moment is transmitted through the tower, otherwise you will
twist it apart by snaping the welds of the cross bracing.

It's just a matter of scaling and if you think about it, assuming two dimensions,
the forces and difficulty go up at at least  by the inverse square of
frequency and perhaps a bit more.

73,
Chuck...K1KW (ex WA1EKV)


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From tharke@fortunehitech.net  Sun Jul 22 21:14:57 2001
From: tharke@fortunehitech.net (Tom Harke)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:14:57 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Fiberglass Rod Guys
Message-ID: <PAEOIGKJHHBINMBCOMBMKENFCAAA.tharke@fortunehitech.net>


I am considering using fiberglass rod for guying a couple of my towers.
Polygon has a 5000 foot minimum order requirement. I am looking for someone
who may be interested in splitting a 5000 foot order.

Tom AA9A


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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Sun Jul 22 21:23:08 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 20:23:08 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
References: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPCEDBCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>
Message-ID: <3B5B362C.20A12D8E@gloryroad.net>


Guys,

No problem if you've got the skills and the money.  Look at the full
sized 3 element yagi from DJ6JC in the ON4UN Low Band DXING handbook.
The elements weigh only about 250 pounds each and are mostly made of
tapered tower sections.  The elements sag only 1'.  It is designed for
106 mph.

You tune the elements by suspending them from a 125' crane.

By the way, the resonant frequency of the elements changed 600Khz from
just above ground to 125'

73 de Brian/K3KO

Bill Hider wrote:
> 
> Pete,
> 
> You are not "all wet".  You just lack the experience in putting
> one of these "monsters" up.  Here's the situation:
> 
> An 80M Yagi (of any element count) has elements TWICE as long as a
> full-size 40M Yagi. That's the basic problem.  Elements that are 130-some
> feet long
> just can't be made "horizontal" and also be able to be put up at heights
> over
> 120 feet high and still be made of reasonable material, be
> within the cost of most all of us, and withstand wind/ice, even the
> wind/ice in MD!!!  It's not a physically realizable objective for
> 99.9% of us.  The other 0.1% of hams who could afford to do this and did
> include W3MSK (W3AU), ON4UN, K2GL and a couple others. Antennas, BTW, that
> did not stay up very long.  (I'm sure we will be told of some that are still
> standing!)
> 
> So, let's look at today's "reasonable" 80M Yagis. These are the linear
> loaded
> variety whose element lengths are 2/3rds, or so, the length of a full size
> beam.
> 
> Linear loading itself adds issues: potential arcing and arc-over, increases
> the "height" dimension of the antenna,
> and adds wind loading to the shortened element.  If the linear loading is
> inductive, the antenna is more reasonable
> in size (like K1DQV's) and easier to handle.  N3HBX has the F12 3 ele 80M
> linear loaded Yagi. This antenna has guy struts on each element as well as
> on the boom in addition to linear loading wires on each element!!
> 
> Add to that the element length is now 85 feet.  This is no easy task to
> install and keep in the air either.
> In my case, I have a F12 EF-180C rotatable dipole.  I had to add a
> phillistran boom guy to each element half
> else it would droop and arc over to the linear loading wires OR droop and
> break the linear loading wires. In fact, it did break and that's what caused
> me to add the phillistran. I sell a $25 video on the mods I made to this
> antenna just to keep it in the air at 149 ft. See: www.erols.com/n3rr
> 
> This is after my experience with an EF 180A, a smaller antenna (tip to tip)
> but with more linear loading
> that was a real "pain" to install.  My 80M rotatable dipole experiences span
> a period of 4 years with arc-over, breakage, wind damage, broken elements,
> element-to-mast clamp insufficiency, etc. You name it, I had it.  I had much
> experience climbing up/down my tower fixing these antennas.
> 
> An 80M Yagi (or rotatable dipole) at 150 feet has special considerations.
> That's why compromises such as linear loading
> shortened elements need to be considered.
> 
> All this to say, Pete, yes, stories abound about 80M rotatable Yagis. They
> are legend and will continue to be.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Bill, N3RR
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Pete Smith
> Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 1:52 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
> 
> Yesterday I visited a big new multiop station, and was able to be a fly on
> the wall during discussions among a number of experienced, big-station
> builders.  Almost without exception, they seemed seriously daunted by the
> idea of trying to install and maintain an 80m yagi, even one less than full
> size, and even in our relatively benign climate.  The air was full of tales
> of antennas that lasted three weeks or less, and costly failures
> 
> I freely admit my lack of experience with these beasts, but I don't get it.
> Why should design of mechanically durable 80-meter loaded yagis be that
> much tougher than, for example, a full-size 40M yagi of equivalent element
> count?  Surely, the mechanical design software currently available can tell
> you what to do to make a75%-scale 80m yagi survive 80, or 90, or 100 MPH
> winds.  I understand that cost is a factor, but once you buy the hardware,
> why shouldn't you be able to have a mechanical failure rate comparable to
> that experienced with other yagis?
> 
> My suspicion is that the hardware probably needs to be beefier than most
> people's intuition and judgment usually tell them, and that failures
> probably result in some part from not working the design problem hard
> enough to start with.
> 
> Am I all wet?
> 
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> No, no ... that's WEST Virginia
> 
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From djl@andlev.com  Sun Jul 22 21:42:30 2001
From: djl@andlev.com (Dan Levin)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:42:30 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] How much is enough for non-interaction?
Message-ID: <04b401c112ee$d4345380$6601a8c0@home>


I am designing a 2 element 40 meter yagi in the spirit of the Force 12 N
element yagi's.  The goal is not to be less than full size, the goal is to
avoid unwanted interactions with a near-by (13' down the mast) tri-bander.
Rather than using linear loading, I am using capacity hats to load the
elements.

The question is, how far do I need to move the '21 mhz' resonance to avoid
interactions with 15 meters?  I currently have the antenna set up so that
the secondary resonance near 15 meters occurs at 22.800 mhz.  The antenna is
62 ohms - j130 at 21.450.  Is that good enough?  I assume that it is, but
any thoughts would be helpful...

Yes - this is yet another question related to my Boonville project :-)

Thanks!

                     ***dan, K6IF


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From kq2m@mags.net  Sun Jul 22 22:16:46 2001
From: kq2m@mags.net (Robert Shohet)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 17:16:46 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
References: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPCEDBCDAA.n3rr@erols.com> <3B5B362C.20A12D8E@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <003501c112f3$9dca0560$72b4f9d0@dchm7>


 It is designed for  106 mph.
>
OUCH!  This wouldn't have made it through the Summer 2001 or Summer 2000
T-storms here in Connecticut (on a hilltop), much less the winter.

Guess it is fortunate that my station is much more modest, although it sure
would be fun to have an 80 meter beam!

73

Bob KQ2M



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From alwilliams@olywa.net  Sun Jul 22 23:10:34 2001
From: alwilliams@olywa.net (Al Williams)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:10:34 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m/40m Force12 mag 2/2  Yagi
Message-ID: <001601c112fb$21413f60$28daadd8@olywa>


I am planning on installing subject beam at 85' using the Orion 2800
rotator--both already on hand.
These 80m yagi posting have me wondering what problems I may be facing.  My
plan is to install
one set of elements on the boom at ground level (crankup tower), raise the
tower to vertical and
then rotate the boom 180 degrees.  Lower the tower and install the opposite
end elements.

Never having had a tower higher than 35', I will appreciate all comments.

BTW, I was mostly interested in a 40m beam but decided to add 80m!

k7puc


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From W8JI@contesting.com  Sun Jul 22 23:22:46 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 18:22:46 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
In-Reply-To: <003501c112f3$9dca0560$72b4f9d0@dchm7>
Message-ID: <200107222226.f6MMQnR13644@paris.akorn.net>


I wonder why anyone bothers with a 80 meter yagi, especially a 
linear loaded yagi, when it is so simple just to install a couple 
reversible wire beams or phased arrays. The only case I can see 
where it is worth it is the case where you simply do not have the 
room for other antennas.

If you spent the money for an 80 meter yagi and spent it on wire 
and tower, you'd absolutely smoke any two or three element yagi 
from the same location. The only catch is you'd need a bit more 
room for ropes.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From kb7ww@uswest.net  Mon Jul 23 00:04:16 2001
From: kb7ww@uswest.net (KB7WW Art Moe)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 16:04:16 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ham M parts
Message-ID: <3B5B5BF0.C6A0A9AA@uswest.net>


Anyone know where to get the U-Bolts for Ham M rotors???  Not the Kits
Just the U-Bolts .....

Thanks
 Art
KB7WW

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From n3rr@erols.com  Mon Jul 23 00:14:33 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 19:14:33 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
In-Reply-To: <200107222226.f6MMQnR13644@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPCEDFCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>


You hit the answer, Tom -- Space.

I have no space for more than what I have up now.
My linear loaded F12 rotatable dipole @ 149 feet beats almost everyone in
the contest pileups to anywhere in the world.

Bill, N3RR

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Tom Rauch
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 6:23 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?



I wonder why anyone bothers with a 80 meter yagi, especially a
linear loaded yagi, when it is so simple just to install a couple
reversible wire beams or phased arrays. The only case I can see
where it is worth it is the case where you simply do not have the
room for other antennas.

If you spent the money for an 80 meter yagi and spent it on wire
and tower, you'd absolutely smoke any two or three element yagi
from the same location. The only catch is you'd need a bit more
room for ropes.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Mon Jul 23 00:38:10 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 19:38:10 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
Message-ID: <85.d6cdeee.288cbde2@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/22/01 12:44:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gdixon@fmtc.net 
writes:

> Taking this antenna up or down is accomplished via the "trolley line
>  method". The yagi is suspended under a big rope that is about 6-8 feet 
above
>  the top of the tower and is pulled up on a pulley riding the rope.

    Actually what you're describing is the "tramline" method where the load 
hangs under the cable like mountain trams.

    The "trolley" method is where you have two lines going up to where the 
antenna will be mounted and the antenna lays on top of the lines like a 
trolley car on its tracks.
    
    The tram method is recommended 100% over the trolley method - less 
rigging, no line friction and the load is easily controlable. 
>  
>  The 75 & 40 Meter yagi's are turned with a Prop Pitch (old W0MLY
>  construction) which has performed flawless.

    The Orion 2800 does a reasonable job with the 2 element versions but a PP 
is *definitely* the way to go.

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From W8JI@contesting.com  Mon Jul 23 02:30:50 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 21:30:50 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
In-Reply-To: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPCEDFCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>
References: <200107222226.f6MMQnR13644@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <200107230134.f6N1YuR16950@paris.akorn.net>


> I have no space for more than what I have up now.
> My linear loaded F12 rotatable dipole @ 149 feet beats almost everyone in
> the contest pileups to anywhere in the world.

The secret is the height, not the antenna. I always wonder though 
why so many manufacturers use linear loading.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From n4zr@contesting.com  Mon Jul 23 02:59:39 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 21:59:39 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
In-Reply-To: <200107230134.f6N1YuR16950@paris.akorn.net>
References: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPCEDFCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>
 <200107222226.f6MMQnR13644@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010722215939.00793bd0@mail.abs.adelphia.net>


At 09:30 PM 7/22/01 -0400, Tom Rauch wrote:
>
>> I have no space for more than what I have up now.
>> My linear loaded F12 rotatable dipole @ 149 feet beats almost everyone in
>> the contest pileups to anywhere in the world.
>
>The secret is the height, not the antenna. I always wonder though 
>why so many manufacturers use linear loading.

Well, Tom's right, of course, if you only need to work in one direction and
you have the supports for wire beams or quads.  Even a dipole gets the
ground reflection gain.  There are a number of W6s who are using the M2 80m
yagi with loading coils replacing the linear loading, and report greatly
improved pattern and performance.

73, Pete N4ZR






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From ford@cmgate.com  Mon Jul 23 03:11:22 2001
From: ford@cmgate.com (Ford Peterson)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 21:11:22 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Lightning Observation
Message-ID: <015901c1131c$c5cad160$18ed83d1@office>


I was doing tower work on Saturday and decided to head for the shack because
of cloud-to-cloud lightning.  As I put everything away and was walking to
the house, a bolt of lightning shot overhead east to west.  It was perfectly
still and quiet in the yard.  Simultaneous to the flash (no thunder was
heard), every power line insulator within 1/4 mile (also running east-west)
started to arc over.  It sounded like 15 arc welders going off at once.

What surprised me even more was the length of time after the flash that the
arcing continued.  It must have been well over a second before the power
lines quieted down.  Mother nature can be scary at times.

These power lines are the 69kV 3 phase type with 15" (or there abouts)
insulators.  They run east and west.  My 80 meter dipole runs north/south.
No damage to anything, either here or in the neighborhood.

Is it possible that the three lines were temporarily DC biased by the
lightning?  How do you explain the > 1 second to discharge the lines?

Sounds bizarre to me....

Ford-N0FP
ford@cmgate.com






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From KD4OL@aol.com  Mon Jul 23 03:17:51 2001
From: KD4OL@aol.com (KD4OL@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 22:17:51 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna Modeling Question
Message-ID: <115.208a4c3.288ce34f@aol.com>


Request info on obtaining Antenna Modeling software regarding stacked yagis 
(2 possibly 3) for 10 meters.  Looking for software that is very user 
friendly.  Your assistance would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Hank, KD4OL

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From W8JI@contesting.com  Mon Jul 23 03:41:40 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 22:41:40 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Lightning Observation
In-Reply-To: <015901c1131c$c5cad160$18ed83d1@office>
Message-ID: <200107230245.f6N2jjR17944@paris.akorn.net>


Hi Ford,

> Is it possible that the three lines were temporarily DC biased by the
> lightning?  How do you explain the > 1 second to discharge the lines?

A large part of the problem is because once an arc is started, a 
very much lower voltage sustains the arc. Sometimes a breaker 
actually has to open and reset to stop the system from arcing.

It's the same problem we have with power relays, and why antenna 
relays need to be overkill and not have materials that ionize or 
carbon track easily in the arc path.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From n3rr@erols.com  Mon Jul 23 04:05:25 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 23:05:25 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010722215939.00793bd0@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPCEDHCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>


Of course it's the height.
But, the dipole has improved F/S up there too.
It's also rotatable!!  That's the best part!

Bill, N3RR

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Pete Smith
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 10:00 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?



At 09:30 PM 7/22/01 -0400, Tom Rauch wrote:
>
>> I have no space for more than what I have up now.
>> My linear loaded F12 rotatable dipole @ 149 feet beats almost everyone in
>> the contest pileups to anywhere in the world.
>
>The secret is the height, not the antenna. I always wonder though
>why so many manufacturers use linear loading.

Well, Tom's right, of course, if you only need to work in one direction and
you have the supports for wire beams or quads.  Even a dipole gets the
ground reflection gain.  There are a number of W6s who are using the M2 80m
yagi with loading coils replacing the linear loading, and report greatly
improved pattern and performance.

73, Pete N4ZR






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From n3rr@erols.com  Mon Jul 23 04:06:52 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 23:06:52 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna Modeling Question
In-Reply-To: <115.208a4c3.288ce34f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPIEDHCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>


I recommend EZNEC V3.0 available from W7EL.

Bill, N3RR

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of KD4OL@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 10:18 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna Modeling Question



Request info on obtaining Antenna Modeling software regarding stacked yagis
(2 possibly 3) for 10 meters.  Looking for software that is very user
friendly.  Your assistance would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Hank, KD4OL

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From ut4uz@idirect.com  Mon Jul 23 04:05:29 2001
From: ut4uz@idirect.com (Yuri VA3UZ)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 23:05:29 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: TH6DXX
Message-ID: <000201c11327$02eca500$de109ad8@-yuri>


Thanks to everybody for replies. I already have all the necessary
measurements.

73  Yuri


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From n4kg@juno.com  Mon Jul 23 05:16:49 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 22:16:49 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m/40m Force12 mag 2/2  Yagi
Message-ID: <20010722.230852.-85371.1.N4KG@juno.com>


I would not expect much benefit from a 2L80 at only 85 ft
which is barely over 1/4 WL high.  The ground reflection at
1/4 WL high is centered straight up.  The free space pattern
of the Yagi is centered at the horizon.  The vector product
will peak somewhere in between.  You may want to model
a 2L80 and an 80M dipole at 140 ft and 85 ft and see how
much net gain you will realize from that configuration before
proceeding.  You might be surprised to see little benefit
over a dipole at 85 ft.

40M antennas play VERY WELL from 70 to 100 ft so that
is a good choice.

Tom  N4KG

>>>>>>>>>>>

K7PUC wrote:

I am planning on installing subject beam at 85' using the Orion 2800
rotator--both already on hand.
These 80m yagi posting have me wondering what problems I may be facing. 
My
plan is to install
one set of elements on the boom at ground level (crankup tower), raise
the
tower to vertical and
then rotate the boom 180 degrees.  Lower the tower and install the
opposite
end elements.

Never having had a tower higher than 35', I will appreciate all comments.

BTW, I was mostly interested in a 40m beam but decided to add 80m!

k7puc

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From n4kg@juno.com  Mon Jul 23 06:02:23 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 23:02:23 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
Message-ID: <20010722.230852.-85371.4.N4KG@juno.com>


My solution was multiple wire antennas,
including a horizontal dipole with the ends at 130 ft
broadside NE / SW, an inverted vee with the apex at 140 ft
broadside JA / S.A., and another inverted vee at 100 ft
broadside to ZS / P29 (110 / 290 degrees), plus 
an elevated GP and ground mounted vertical with
50 radials.

For receiving I have 7 unterminated or bi-directional
Beverages available which are often (but not always)
better than the high dipoles.

Tom  N4KG	

80M DXCC = 332 current countries  with 1200W.
Need A5  BS  EP  FR/G  P5  R1MVI  SV/A  VU/A*  VU/L*  3C0*  9N
* heard but not worked

On Sun, 22 Jul 2001  "Bill Hider" <n3rr@erols.com> writes:
> 
> Of course it's the height.
> But, the dipole has improved F/S up there too.
> It's also rotatable!!  That's the best part!
> 
> Bill, N3RR
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Pete Smith
> Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 10:00 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
> 
> 
> 
> At 09:30 PM 7/22/01 -0400, Tom Rauch wrote:
> >
> >> I have no space for more than what I have up now.
> >> My linear loaded F12 rotatable dipole @ 149 feet beats almost 
> everyone in
> >> the contest pileups to anywhere in the world.
> >
> >The secret is the height, not the antenna. I always wonder though
> >why so many manufacturers use linear loading.
> 
> Well, Tom's right, of course, if you only need to work in one 
> direction and
> you have the supports for wire beams or quads.  Even a dipole gets 
> the
> ground reflection gain.  There are a number of W6s who are using the 
> M2 80m
> yagi with loading coils replacing the linear loading, and report 
> greatly
> improved pattern and performance.
> 
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
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> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers 
> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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> 
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From NQ4I@compuserve.com  Mon Jul 23 12:25:17 2001
From: NQ4I@compuserve.com (Rick Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 07:25:17 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80 meter yagis
Message-ID: <200107230725_MC3-DA13-882B@compuserve.com>


Hello all...let me add a little more to the myth of 80 meter yagis...I have
a modified KLM 80m2....by way of explanation let me tell a little
history...this antenna origionally belonged to Steve K4JPD...he had it at
165 ft on a ridge line about 20 sw of Atlanta...with this antenna he was a
dominate force on 80m...he did have a little extra help from "eimac"
too...enuf said...this antenna came down when Hurricane Opel came inland
and tracked into middle Ga in "93 I think...Steve salvage enough to us it a
simply a dipole for a few months and after the insurance settled wit
him...he decided to sell all his towers and antennas and move to a new
location thta would not allow antennas...Steve called me and offered me the
dipole for $100...and if I would come up asap I could have the rest of the
crumpled antenna...

I took him up instantly...and drove to his qth asap...when I got there I
loaded the dipole and the rest of aluminum in my trailer and drove it
home...for the next 2 days I spent time laying out the full antenna on the
ground...it didn't take long to see that the most important pieces were
there and with a small amount of fabrication I too could have a 2 element
yagi...well I had the resources to make it into a 3 element also...so
nowcomes the delima....2 elements on a 36 ft boom?? or 3 elements on approx
a 60 foot boom...I was going to have to re-build the boom anyway...my
friend W4EA had a version of Yagi optimizer and we ran the numbers for 2
elements and 3 elements...the gain is within 1.5 dbi and the only noticable
deiierence is some 8-10 dbi additional f/b ratio...the biggest difference
now becomes the physical windloading and keeping it in the air...Steve had
the antenna at 165 ft on Rohn 45 tower..he also had 4 or 5 more yagis on
the tower...so it was pretty loaded...the tower mainly failed due to the
high rains that came from the approaching Hurricane...the ground softened
and the wind pressure caused the guy anchor points to pull out of the
ground on the side from the approaching hurricane wind direction...(he had
also used mobile home screw in anchors) had he used proper anchors the
tower might still be there...

I guess one of the points that I am trying to make here is that this a lot
of load on a tower and it must be considered...I currently have the
re-built 2 element on a rohn 45 tower at 125 ft...this tower too is fairly
over loaded too...but it is over guyed too and has been up for the past 6
years and has survived another hurricane and 3 tornados....it has 5 ele 20
at 96 ft fixed 5 el at 48 ft fixed and a 4 high 10m stack at 30 ft 60ft 90
ft and 120 ft...


currently I am building a second 2 el 80m yagi...have purchased 210 ft of
rohn 55 and will be installing 2 hi stack...this willl be with the lower
one at 105 ft and top at 210 ft...the top will rotate and the bottom will
be fixed to Eu...

The next point that I want to make is that just a single antenna will
dominate on the band nicely...ask Gary K4MQG...but rotors are also a
problem too...I have found that only a large Prop pitch or the Yaesu 2800
can hold this antenna...I have to point and leave it when I am away in the
direction of the prevailing wind....I still have the shear bolts snap at
least 2-3 times a year...so you can see that this is not for the average
installation...it requires lots of attention and care to keep it up...we
had a major ice storm 2 years ago and with my modifications to this antenna
no loss at all...the origional KLM design would have failed...

I still feel that in a major contest that I am not on the same playing
field with XX,LR,RM, and LPL when it comes to the numbers we get on 80m
versus their numbers...that is the difference in propagation and their
proximity to Europe...that is why I feel that the stack will help our
geography and level the field some...it goes with out saying that beverages
are necessary to compliment this antenna too...currently my location
doesnot allow beverages...the new one will....

Yes the 80 antenna is a big big worry...but the satisfaction of operating
with make it worthwhile.....I think I remember and old FRC addage that "if
it didnt come down last winter, it wasn't big enough"

my 2 cents worth....de Rick nq4i

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From i4jmy@iol.it  Mon Jul 23 12:45:58 2001
From: i4jmy@iol.it (i4jmy@iol.it)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:45:58 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
Message-ID: <GGXCOM$Ic6UfBr1fsKVVHJaJE48XymdhZCYRkTcUxis5@iol.it>


Proper linear loading has no gaps compared with coils and Q is better 
controlled.
I had very narrow BW with a 2 element yagi on 160m using coils while it 
was much easier to obtain a pattern with linear loading.
Lost power is better dissipated along meters of straight wire or tubing 
than on wound coils in a concentrated space. 
An high dipole that gets extra gain by ground reflections (at some 
elevations) in an efficient transmitting antenna, but without a pattern 
that enhance S/N while receiving is generally a much poorer machine if 
compared with a directional array.

73,
Mauri I4JMY

> > I have no space for more than what I have up now.
> > My linear loaded F12 rotatable dipole @ 149 feet beats almost 
everyone in
> > the contest pileups to anywhere in the world.
> 
> The secret is the height, not the antenna. I always wonder though 
> why so many manufacturers use linear loading.
> 73, Tom W8JI
> W8JI@contesting.com 



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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Mon Jul 23 13:24:04 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:24:04 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80M dipoles/height gain
References: <20010722.230852.-85371.1.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3B5C1764.F71FDFC4@gloryroad.net>


Here are some EZNEC calcs of an 80 meter dipole at heights from 60' to
160'

Clearly guys who get even dipoles high win.

height	max gain/angle	half power angles	20deg gain
60'	6.52dbi/89deg	30deg			1.5dbi
80'	6.16dbi/52deg	23deg			2.16dbi
100'	6.38dbi/40deg	19,81deg		3.4dbi
120'	7.05dbi/33deg	16,56deg		5.0dbi
140'	7.84dbi/28deg   14,45			6.8dbi
160'	8.31dbi/25deg	12,39			8.3dbi

The 20 degree angle point was chosen because it represents a point
that the a point in the second peak of the eu arrival angle
distribution with a large fraction of the total . (East coast,
Washington DC) It says going from 80' to 160' one gains about an S
unit in EU from the East coast.

The 6-12 degree region contains the first arrival angle distribution
peak. It takes a dipole at 160' to put much energy there.  A vertical
isn't the answer to cover these lower angles -- unless you have
excellent ground conductivity.  EZNEC shows that verticals are also
poor performers at these angles there in areas of conductivities in
the 2-5 range (my QTH is 2.5.)  Of course, if your vertical antenna is
on a salt marsh, you win.

73 de Brian/K3KO
n4kg@juno.com wrote:
> 
> I would not expect much benefit from a 2L80 at only 85 ft
> which is barely over 1/4 WL high.  The ground reflection at
> 1/4 WL high is centered straight up.  The free space pattern
> of the Yagi is centered at the horizon.  The vector product
> will peak somewhere in between.  You may want to model
> a 2L80 and an 80M dipole at 140 ft and 85 ft and see how
> much net gain you will realize from that configuration before
> proceeding.  You might be surprised to see little benefit
> over a dipole at 85 ft.
> 
> 40M antennas play VERY WELL from 70 to 100 ft so that
> is a good choice.
> 
> Tom  N4KG
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> K7PUC wrote:
> 
> I am planning on installing subject beam at 85' using the Orion 2800
> rotator--both already on hand.
> These 80m yagi posting have me wondering what problems I may be facing.
> My
> plan is to install
> one set of elements on the boom at ground level (crankup tower), raise
> the
> tower to vertical and
> then rotate the boom 180 degrees.  Lower the tower and install the
> opposite
> end elements.
> 
> Never having had a tower higher than 35', I will appreciate all comments.
> 
> BTW, I was mostly interested in a 40m beam but decided to add 80m!
> 
> k7puc
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
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From teamw@quixnet.net  Mon Jul 23 13:23:57 2001
From: teamw@quixnet.net (teamw)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:23:57 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Routing Cables - Tower to shack
Message-ID: <003c01c11379$7d2a9dc0$7ad06620@JohnandMargaretWeatherley>


I get the impression that in some readers minds buried cable is immune to
the effects of lightning. However, the earth is not a magnetic shield. A
cable a foot or two underground can have a surge induced in it of a thousand
volts or so from a lightning strike a quarter mile away, or more. (Twice,
one when the strikes magnetic filed expands outwards and again when the
field collapses). Those surges can be on the shield of your buried coax
cable and on the center conductor.
    The fact that someone has had no damage in the last "N" years is not a
reason to avoid doing it right! The place for the surge protectors is at the
entry point to the house or shack.
There is an issue that there will be a differential potential between the
ground field at the tower and the ground field at the house entry for a long
cable run but there is no simple way to make both ends the same potential.
Personally I would prefer to replace some coax rather than the rig or house.

Your soldiers can establish a defence line in the woods and fields around
the castle but the final defensive entry point is the drawbridge and
portcullis.

John AB4ET


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From W9IXX@arrl.net  Mon Jul 23 14:28:37 2001
From: W9IXX@arrl.net (Philip Florig)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:28:37 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Lightning Observation
In-Reply-To: <200107230245.f6N2jjR17944@paris.akorn.net>
References: <015901c1131c$c5cad160$18ed83d1@office>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010723082014.00a16da0@mail.winstarmail.com>


At 22:41 7/22/2001 -0400, you wrote:

>Hi Ford,
>
> > Is it possible that the three lines were temporarily DC biased by the
> > lightning?  How do you explain the > 1 second to discharge the lines?
>
>A large part of the problem is because once an arc is started, a
>very much lower voltage sustains the arc. Sometimes a breaker
>actually has to open and reset to stop the system from arcing.
>
>It's the same problem we have with power relays, and why antenna
>relays need to be overkill and not have materials that ionize or
>carbon track easily in the arc path.
>73, Tom W8JI
>W8JI@contesting.com

Hi,

This is exactly right Tom. We use contactors and relays here for the DC 
rectifier
systems,and they have blowout coils or magnets to extinguish the arc. In 
some of the
arc discharge systems you have to reduce the voltage to almost zero and 
sometimes
even reverse (in cases of capacitor action above the zero point) before the arc
will extinguish.

This is a great group reflectees and glad to be subscribed.  Keep up the great
discussions.

73     Phil


-----------------------------------------------
Philip Florig           e-mail:pflorig@ieee.org
PO Box 44                   (or):W9IXX@arrl.net
Worth, IL.  60482           amateur radio:W9IXX
USA                      also:J3X-T30,31,32,33P
                            team member:AH1A-J3A
-----------------------------------------------
Metro DX Club                    club call:W9TY
Oak Forest, IL.                   qsl via W9IXX
-----------------------------------------------


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From W8JI@contesting.com  Mon Jul 23 15:34:16 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:34:16 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80M dipoles/height gain
In-Reply-To: <3B5C1764.F71FDFC4@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <200107231438.f6NEceR30965@paris.akorn.net>


> The 6-12 degree region contains the first arrival angle distribution
> peak. It takes a dipole at 160' to put much energy there.  A vertical
> isn't the answer to cover these lower angles -- unless you have excellent
> ground conductivity.  EZNEC shows that verticals are also poor performers
> at these angles there in areas of conductivities in the 2-5 range (my QTH
> is 2.5.)  Of course, if your vertical antenna is on a salt marsh, you win.


Modelling prompted me to install a 318 ft tower, and that probably 
was one of the worse investments I ever made. But hey, if you don't 
try one you never know. Don't sell a vertical short without trying 
one, at least not on the lower bands where things may work out 
better than you expect! 

On 1.8MHz, I have a dipole at ~300feet. At best it just ties a series-
fed 200ft tower. Most of the time the 200ft tower is better, and 
that's true at any distance!

My soil does not seem to be particularly good, it is clay with a thin 
layer of sandy topsoil although this is gentle rolling pastureland and 
woods.

On 80 meters at my old QTH near Atlanta, a 35 foot top loaded 
vertical with 60 80 foot radials tied or beat a 100-120 foot high 
dipole into Europe night after night. 

I hope to have an 80 meter vertical up here someday to test against 
my 160 foot high dipole. Of course I always use real ground 
systems with lots of radials.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From W8JI@contesting.com  Mon Jul 23 15:34:16 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:34:16 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Routing Cables - Tower to shack
In-Reply-To: <003c01c11379$7d2a9dc0$7ad06620@JohnandMargaretWeatherley>
Message-ID: <200107231438.f6NEcgR30968@paris.akorn.net>


> I get the impression that in some readers minds buried cable is immune to
> the effects of lightning. However, the earth is not a magnetic shield. A
> cable a foot or two underground can have a surge induced in it of a
> thousand volts or so from a lightning strike a quarter mile away, or more.
> (Twice, one when the strikes magnetic filed expands outwards and again
> when the field collapses). Those surges can be on the shield of your
> buried coax cable and on the center conductor.

The main advantage of the earth is the cable is tightly coupled to 
earth around the cable, and is very unlikely to have much potential 
difference between it and earth from distant strikes. Put simply, 
even if the shielding is less than perfect it all moves together in the 
same direction at the same rate. Buried cables are mostly immune 
unless very dense conducted charges along the earth's surface 
from a close-by strike create problems.

The *induced* charges that are most problematic are induced when 
the cable or metallic structure is vertical or suspended above 
ground.

I think what mostly is missed is lightning is NOT dc, it is a varying 
waveform. The energy peak is at 10kHz, with considerable energy 
extending higher in frequency.

The key to lightning protection is proper grounding, and avoiding 
ground loops through equipment. Virtually all of the problem deals 
with connections to shields, there is very little differential mode 
current or voltage induced inside a shielded cable. The exception 
would be a case where you have a very large antenna element 
connected to the center conductor.

If you depend on a lightning arrestor you are deluding yourself. The 
vast majority of the problem is common mode, not differential 
mode, voltage between conductors of incoming lines or cables! I'd 
recommend reading the NAB (National Association of 
Broadcasters) Handbook. They aren't trying to sell anything but 
protection. In the section on antennas and towers, they cover site 
lightning protection, and list other references. 


73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From franknorton@home.com  Mon Jul 23 16:16:07 2001
From: franknorton@home.com (Frank Norton)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:16:07 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80M dipoles/height gain
In-Reply-To: <3B5C1764.F71FDFC4@gloryroad.net>
References: <20010722.230852.-85371.1.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010723101234.00a0b2e0@mail.baycty1.mi.home.com>


It is important to note Brians table of gain figures and the conclusions 
reached:  I would not argue with any of his points except minor issues 
about location and the reality of cost per S unit.  The conclusions leave 
out those of us in the central U.S..  Most hams don't have the benefit of 
living "on the beach" within 120 miles of the Atlantic Ocean.  We really 
have to work for every S unit to get through the pile up of folks on the 
east coast.  Of course the west coast has different advantages and 
disadvantages for contesting.

The table illustrates clearly that it is VERY difficult to get a fraction 
of an S unit improvement on 80/75 meters.  From the central U.S. we need to 
be much closer to a 12 degree angle of primary lobe or we simply aren't in 
the contest (staying with Brians Illustration of EU sigs) until after the 
pile-up dies down, or better yet we use operating skill and courtesy to 
make the contact!

We simply can't do it by raising an 80M dipole 20 feet, or adding an extra 
element until we get into spending vast amounts of money to get to at least 
125 feet (depending on ground conditions as Brian notes).  So we get to the 
magic height (as close as we can) with wires.  And as all of us remember 
who were hams before the technological revolution in the 1980's--- Wire 
antennas get the job done when thought out and installed properly.  Toms 
post about wire is an excellent example.

Ham radio is a great hobby, isn't it?  HF is where we can still compete 
with monster arrays by using wire and inventive installation 
techniques.  Most of all operator skill and patience.  It is wonderful to 
read about the big dollar monster contest station arrays.  God bless you if 
you help advance the hobby by experimenting with stacked 80 meter yagis or 
whatever floats your boat.  Reality dictates to most of us that we compromise.

So on behalf of all of us with dreams of contesting with a 3 element 80 
meter yagi on top of a 200 foot tower---then the stacks for each band that 
would naturally accompany that installation lower down the tower---I thank 
Tom and Brian and the rest of you for contributing to this 
discussion.  It's great to enjoy those beams vicariously, even though our 
fence needs to go up, then the central air.....on and on.

73,

Frank, KB8XU

At 12:24 PM 7/23/2001 +0000, Brian K3KO wrote and referenced Tom N4KG:

>Here are some EZNEC calcs of an 80 meter dipole at heights from 60' to
>160'
>
>Clearly guys who get even dipoles high win.
>
>height  max gain/angle  half power angles       20deg gain
>60'     6.52dbi/89deg   30deg                   1.5dbi
>80'     6.16dbi/52deg   23deg                   2.16dbi
>100'    6.38dbi/40deg   19,81deg                3.4dbi
>120'    7.05dbi/33deg   16,56deg                5.0dbi
>140'    7.84dbi/28deg      14,45                        6.8dbi
>160'    8.31dbi/25deg   12,39                   8.3dbi
>
>The 20 degree angle point was chosen because it represents a point
>that the a point in the second peak of the eu arrival angle
>distribution with a large fraction of the total . (East coast,
>Washington DC) It says going from 80' to 160' one gains about an S
>unit in EU from the East coast.
>
>The 6-12 degree region contains the first arrival angle distribution
>peak. It takes a dipole at 160' to put much energy there.  A vertical
>isn't the answer to cover these lower angles -- unless you have
>excellent ground conductivity.  EZNEC shows that verticals are also
>poor performers at these angles there in areas of conductivities in
>the 2-5 range (my QTH is 2.5.)  Of course, if your vertical antenna is
>on a salt marsh, you win.
>
>73 de Brian/K3KO
>n4kg@juno.com wrote:
> >
> > I would not expect much benefit from a 2L80 at only 85 ft
> > which is barely over 1/4 WL high.  The ground reflection at
> > 1/4 WL high is centered straight up.  The free space pattern
> > of the Yagi is centered at the horizon.  The vector product
> > will peak somewhere in between.  You may want to model
> > a 2L80 and an 80M dipole at 140 ft and 85 ft and see how
> > much net gain you will realize from that configuration before
> > proceeding.  You might be surprised to see little benefit
> > over a dipole at 85 ft.
> >
> > 40M antennas play VERY WELL from 70 to 100 ft so that
> > is a good choice.
> >
> > Tom  N4KG
> >


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From Bob Wood" <rtwood@americu.net  Mon Jul 23 17:29:46 2001
From: Bob Wood" <rtwood@americu.net (Bob Wood)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:29:46 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re:(Tower Talk) Radials for Tower
Message-ID: <005201c11394$b1629500$781f07d8@computer>


I have just (successfully) put up my first tower. Rohn 25 up 52' with X-7 at
54' and A3WS at 60'.  I also am going to have half-slopers for 40m and 80m.
My questions have to do with radials, not for lightning protection, but to
enhance the slopers performance, lower swr etc.  The reasons for questions
here is that all the reference work, ARRL Antenna book, Handbook, ON4UN's
Low-band DXing and others have conflicting and ?incomplete? information.  I
have 3 questions and respond directly if you wish.

1. Does it make a difference if bare or insulated wire is used?
2. What about length? 1/4 wavelength or is length not that critical?
3. Number of radials, without going crazy burying wire.

The ARRL antenna book has a table on page 3-3 that indicates you need a
minimum of 16 radials of .1 wavelength.

Any thoughts or ideas? I hope that these questions aren't too basic or dumb.

Bob - N2KX
rtwood@americu.net


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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Mon Jul 23 17:54:29 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:54:29 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Lightning Observation
Message-ID: <000801c11398$27cd3080$4083c640@spelunk.sueno>


Ford:

     That continuous arcing after the bolt of lightning is known as power
follow-through.  The lightning induces a voltage spike into the power
network and arcs over the surfaces of insulators weakened by dirt, cracks,
etc.  However, once the lightning bolt has dissipated, the path to ground
across these insulators still exists because it's being fed by the power
grid (power follow-through.)

     What usually has to happen is a protective device on the power system
has to open - this may take a second or two, especially if the device is an
oil circuit recloser (OCR).  These things are intended to open under fault
conditions, then reclose and test for further faults.   This trip, open,
close, test cycle is repeated a few times before the device locks open and a
guy in a truck has to motor on out to the spot to repair the fault and reset
the device.

     The size of the insulators tells me that the line is more likely a 23
kV or thereabouts line; 69 kV insulators are around three feet tall.  (If
the insulators had less than a half-dozen skirts, then the voltage is closer
to 23 kV.)  That being the case, I would suspect you saw an OCR operate; a
69 kV line would have tripped open permanently.  More things get damaged at
the higher voltages when you keep closing in on a fault, so the protective
devices usually operate once to clear the fault.  The System Operator then
has to manually close the breaker once the fault has been identified and
cleared.

      Aren't you glad you asked?


73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: Ford Peterson <ford@cmgate.com>
To: towertalk@contesting.com <towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Sunday, July 22, 2001 11:51 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Lightning Observation


>
>I was doing tower work on Saturday and decided to head for the shack
because
>of cloud-to-cloud lightning.  As I put everything away and was walking to
>the house, a bolt of lightning shot overhead east to west.  It was
perfectly
>still and quiet in the yard.  Simultaneous to the flash (no thunder was
>heard), every power line insulator within 1/4 mile (also running east-west)
>started to arc over.  It sounded like 15 arc welders going off at once.
>
>What surprised me even more was the length of time after the flash that the
>arcing continued.  It must have been well over a second before the power
>lines quieted down.  Mother nature can be scary at times.
>
>These power lines are the 69kV 3 phase type with 15" (or there abouts)
>insulators.  They run east and west.  My 80 meter dipole runs north/south.
>No damage to anything, either here or in the neighborhood.
>
>Is it possible that the three lines were temporarily DC biased by the
>lightning?  How do you explain the > 1 second to discharge the lines?
>
>Sounds bizarre to me....
>
>Ford-N0FP
>ford@cmgate.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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>
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From MWapner@Vetronix.com  Mon Jul 23 18:11:17 2001
From: MWapner@Vetronix.com (Mike Wapner)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:11:17 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Base/Footing for LM470 - Water seepage into hole
Message-ID: <11CA8AEBA4D7D0119FFF00805F29965D02079B76@EXCHANGE_NT1>


I am in-process of installing a LM470.  This is the first time I've
installed a self supporting tower (with this size footing) other than a
telephone pole and that was done 40 years ago at a totally different QTH.

I got the hole dug per Tri-Ex specs of 3.5' X 3.5' square but I went 8' deep
to add a little safety margin because the Tri-Ex drawing doesn't really
specify the soil type that the drawing is based on.  I also extended the
rebar 1' in the tower base to go to within 4" of the hole bottom (as Tri-Ex
shows).  My soil is basically hard clay with pockets of sand as I dug
deeper.  As I got below 6' deep, I noticed water seepage into the hole from
two small fissures, one each on two opposite sides of the hole.  The
fissures are light gray in color as compared to the soil which is a reddish
brown.  The seepage rate is approximately 1'/24 hours in the 3.5'/3.5' cross
section or approx. 3.8 gal/hour.  

I have a swimming pool 10' away from the hole, but the pool water level
doesn't seem to be dropping any more rapidly than it ever did (due to
evaporation). However, I doubt I'd notice 92 gallons loss in the pool over a
24 hour period!  I also live on the side of a hill where I wouldn't expect
to see too much ground water captured in the soil. Yet, we are far from the
top of the hill.   I asked a surveyor friend (not a geologist) and he
claimed that the water collection in this type of soil is not uncommon.  The
fissures are not on the side of the hole towards the pool.

I am ready to install the rebar base into the hole and pour the mud.  Should
I be concerned about this seepage?  Has anyone experienced this in their
installation?

73, Mike-K6QD


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From w5kp@swbell.net  Mon Jul 23 18:48:48 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:48:48 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80 meter yagis
References: <200107230725_MC3-DA13-882B@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <005b01c1139f$bb0e7820$3c22c1cf@jkdesktop>


Son of a gun. I guess I'll quit worrying about overloading the new 80' 45G
with a shorty 40 and a C3XLD. :-)
Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Dougherty <NQ4I@compuserve.com>
To: TowerTalk <TowerTalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 6:25 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80 meter yagis


>..I currently have the
> re-built 2 element on a rohn 45 tower at 125 ft...this tower too is fairly
> over loaded too...but it is over guyed too and has been up for the past 6
> years and has survived another hurricane and 3 tornados....it has 5 ele 20
> at 96 ft fixed 5 el at 48 ft fixed and a 4 high 10m stack at 30 ft 60ft 90
> ft and 120 ft...
>


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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Mon Jul 23 19:14:39 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:14:39 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Routing Cables - Tower to shack
Message-ID: <007401c113a3$70f22940$4083c640@spelunk.sueno>


TT:

     So I conclude that lightning energy impinging on a buried coax cable
will at most have a surface/shield current flowing on it, which can be
shunted to ground by a properly applied ground connection at the SPG panel
outside my house/shack.  My planned system configuration exactly.  Any
energy on the center conductor (which got there by striking one of my
antennas at the tower top) ought to be taken care of by the arrestor, at the
bottom of the tower  - again, my configuration.

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Rauch <w8ji@akorn.net>
To: towertalk@contesting.com <towertalk@contesting.com>; teamw
<teamw@quixnet.net>
Date: Monday, July 23, 2001 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Routing Cables - Tower to shack


>
>> I get the impression that in some readers minds buried cable is immune to
>> the effects of lightning. However, the earth is not a magnetic shield. A
>> cable a foot or two underground can have a surge induced in it of a
>> thousand volts or so from a lightning strike a quarter mile away, or
more.
>> (Twice, one when the strikes magnetic filed expands outwards and again
>> when the field collapses). Those surges can be on the shield of your
>> buried coax cable and on the center conductor.
>
>The main advantage of the earth is the cable is tightly coupled to
>earth around the cable, and is very unlikely to have much potential
>difference between it and earth from distant strikes. Put simply,
>even if the shielding is less than perfect it all moves together in the
>same direction at the same rate. Buried cables are mostly immune
>unless very dense conducted charges along the earth's surface
>from a close-by strike create problems.
>
>The *induced* charges that are most problematic are induced when
>the cable or metallic structure is vertical or suspended above
>ground.
>
>I think what mostly is missed is lightning is NOT dc, it is a varying
>waveform. The energy peak is at 10kHz, with considerable energy
>extending higher in frequency.
>
>The key to lightning protection is proper grounding, and avoiding
>ground loops through equipment. Virtually all of the problem deals
>with connections to shields, there is very little differential mode
>current or voltage induced inside a shielded cable. The exception
>would be a case where you have a very large antenna element
>connected to the center conductor.
>
>If you depend on a lightning arrestor you are deluding yourself. The
>vast majority of the problem is common mode, not differential
>mode, voltage between conductors of incoming lines or cables! I'd
>recommend reading the NAB (National Association of
>Broadcasters) Handbook. They aren't trying to sell anything but
>protection. In the section on antennas and towers, they cover site
>lightning protection, and list other references.
>
>
>73, Tom W8JI
>W8JI@contesting.com
>
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>
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From steve@oakcom.com  Tue Jul 24 07:33:13 2001
From: steve@oakcom.com (Steve Maki)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 02:33:13 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Anyone need some 1/2" or 5/8" Polygon guy rod?
Message-ID: <rq4qltor9rn57mlpn2pp68anbvcpiveslp@4ax.com>


In the next couple of weeks I'll be putting in a minimum (5000') order
for either 1/2" or 5/8" fiberglass guy rod. I only need half of the order,
so let me know if you can use what's left.

--
Steve K8LX

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From n4kg@juno.com  Mon Jul 23 20:22:43 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:22:43 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80M dipoles/height gain
Message-ID: <20010723.132258.-243657.1.N4KG@juno.com>


N4KG comments inserted below.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2001  "Tom Rauch" <w8ji@akorn.net> writes:
> 
> > The 6-12 degree region contains the first arrival angle  distribution
> > peak. It takes a dipole at 160' to put much energy there.  A 
> vertical isn't the answer to cover these lower angles -- unless you
have 
> excellent ground conductivity.  EZNEC shows that verticals are also
poor 
> performers at these angles there in areas of conductivities in the 2-5
range 
> (my QTHis 2.5.)  Of course, if your vertical antenna is on a salt
marsh, 
> you win.

	What TRANSMITTING and RECEIVING antennas 
	were assumed for these 	propagation models?   N4KG
> 
> 
> Modelling prompted me to install a 318 ft tower, and that probably 
> was one of the worse investments I ever made. But hey, if you don't 
> try one you never know. Don't sell a vertical short without trying 
> one, at least not on the lower bands where things may work out 
> better than you expect! 
> 
> On 1.8MHz, I have a dipole at ~300feet. At best it just ties a 
> series- fed 200ft tower. Most of the time the 200ft tower is better, 
> and  that's true at any distance!
> 
	160M and 80M just don't play the same, at least not
	in ALA.   N4KG

> My soil does not seem to be particularly good, it is clay with a 
> thin  layer of sandy topsoil although this is gentle rolling
pastureland 
> and  woods.
> 
> On 80 meters at my old QTH near Atlanta, a 35 foot top loaded 
> vertical with 60 80 foot radials tied or beat a 100-120 foot high 
> dipole into Europe night after night. 

	From North Alabama, my 130 ft high dipole is usually
	better to most of Europe and Africa than my elevated GP 
	or ground mounted wire vertical.  There ARE times when
	the GP or vertical are better, especially to Northern EU.

	The verticals are always better to the Arctic which never
	comes in well on 80M in ALA, either in the evening or
	around sunrise when W0's give JW5NM 59 reports and
	W8's are giving 57 reports.  At best, he is 33 in ALA
	but workable.  Thank goodness he hears well!  Similar
	story with R1FJL etc.
	
	At sunrise and sunset, the high horizontal wires are usually
	better on the LP or SKEW path to SE Asia and VK0HI.
	My first QSO with my 140 ft JA / SA inverted vee was
	VK0HI (LP) followed by S21XX (LP), V85HG (SP?), BV, BY,
	and other LP SE Asians.  My 140 ft NE /SW dipole was
	definitely my best antenna for the SW SKEW path to BQ9P, 
	XU7AAV, 8Q7.  A local (inv vee) worked VU4GDG on 80M 
	LP when my 80M inv was damaged and I could not penetrate
	the pileup with an elevated GP and sloping radials fed
	at 45 ft on a 75 ft tower topped with a 3L20.  Immediately
	after that disappointment, I built my "N4KG special"
	elevated GP (a 40 ft tower topped with TH7, reverse fed
	at 15 ft with 10 horizontal radials).  It has been a good performer.
	
	I have worked XZ using both verticals and dipoles at both
	sunrise and sunset on 80M.  Sometimes blowing right through
	and sometimes being the LAST station to get through an opening.
	Bottom Line:  It is good to have BOTH vertical and horizontal
	antennas on 80M.  A GOOD vertical with 30 or more radials
	is always a useful antenna to supplement your arsenal on the
	low bands.   Tom  N4KG
> 
> I hope to have an 80 meter vertical up here someday to test against 
> my 160 foot high dipole. Of course I always use real ground 
> systems with lots of radials.

> 73, Tom W8JI
> W8JI@contesting.com 
> 

________________________________________________________________
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From n3rr@erols.com  Mon Jul 23 19:48:34 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:48:34 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Anyone need some 1/2" or 5/8" Polygon guy rod?
In-Reply-To: <rq4qltor9rn57mlpn2pp68anbvcpiveslp@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPKEDOCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>


Steve,

What are you putting up, a 1000 foot tower!!!

Why do you need anything larger than 3/8 inch Polygon rod?  That's got a
tensile strength greater than
5/16 in steel E.H.S.

Check out my website: www.erols.com/n3rr

Bill


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Steve Maki
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 2:33 AM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Anyone need some 1/2" or 5/8" Polygon guy rod?



In the next couple of weeks I'll be putting in a minimum (5000') order
for either 1/2" or 5/8" fiberglass guy rod. I only need half of the order,
so let me know if you can use what's left.

--
Steve K8LX

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From jfarber@sprynet.com  Mon Jul 23 21:18:51 2001
From: jfarber@sprynet.com (John Farber)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:18:51 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: US Towers 472 coax question
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010722085747.009fe0b0@mail.baycty1.mi.home.com>
Message-ID: <000201c113b5$53b0f980$6230fea9@lab>


I just got my US Towers 472 MDP tower up, with a 31 L Tennadye log for
50-1300 at the top and a KLM 6M7LB yagi below it. I am trying to figure the
distance between coax arms that the coax should be taped to. I can't seem to
locate that spec in the US towers material. In other words, when the tower
is fully extended, what is the distance between consecutive coax arms?
Thanks, 73, John KG6I


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From k2kv@reallybig.com  Mon Jul 23 21:42:33 2001
From: k2kv@reallybig.com (Jeff Singer)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:42:33 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: US Towers 472 coax question
In-Reply-To: <000201c113b5$53b0f980$6230fea9@lab>
Message-ID: <NCBBJJPGDGNHBDPHJOCHMECOEPAA.k2kv@reallybig.com>


Why tape them up? Personally, I would just let the coax slide through the
loops.

When the tower comes down and goes up repetitively, the coax will BEND
uncomfortably at the tape points, causing inevitable eventual damage and
failure.

Just my opinion, of course.

73 de Jeff K2KV

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of John Farber
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 4:19 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: US Towers 472 coax question



I just got my US Towers 472 MDP tower up, with a 31 L Tennadye log for
50-1300 at the top and a KLM 6M7LB yagi below it. I am trying to figure the
distance between coax arms that the coax should be taped to. I can't seem to
locate that spec in the US towers material. In other words, when the tower
is fully extended, what is the distance between consecutive coax arms?
Thanks, 73, John KG6I


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From K2we@aol.com  Mon Jul 23 22:16:39 2001
From: K2we@aol.com (K2we@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:16:39 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: US Towers 472 coax question
Message-ID: <e3.17ed25af.288dee37@aol.com>


Hi John,
    While I do not own a US Tower, I do have a Tri-ex LM-470D which is very 
close. I have the coax arms at the top of each section. The longer ones start 
at the top and end up with the shorter on at the top of the lower section. 

As for taping the coax, I have mine free. When I lower the coax, it slides 
thru the arms and coils at the base of the tower. This prevents undo strain 
on the cables from bending around the coax arms. I found this out the hard 
way and had to replace 7 coax and 3 control cables (rotor, remote switch 
etc.) after just 8 months. Just be careful when raising the tower making sure 
no coax gets tangled around the motor or other things at the base of the 
tower. The motor is strong and the coax rips very easy. Once the tower is 
fully up, I put 2 yellow bands of tape just above and just below the lower 
coax arm. This makes it easy to tell when the tower is fully extended.

Enjoy your new tower..

73  Steve/K2WE

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From steve@oakcom.com  Tue Jul 24 10:14:41 2001
From: steve@oakcom.com (Steve Maki)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 05:14:41 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Anyone need some 1/2" or 5/8" Polygon guy rod?
In-Reply-To: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPKEDOCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>
References: <rq4qltor9rn57mlpn2pp68anbvcpiveslp@4ax.com> <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPKEDOCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>
Message-ID: <67eqlt4ujqv9gmb0m36o2bcij3om3ub6r8@4ax.com>


N3RR wrote:

>>In the next couple of weeks I'll be putting in a minimum (5000') order
>>for either 1/2" or 5/8" fiberglass guy rod. I only need half of the order,
>>so let me know if you can use what's left.

>Steve,
>
>What are you putting up, a 1000 foot tower!!!
>
>Why do you need anything larger than 3/8 inch Polygon rod?  That's got a
>tensile strength greater than
>5/16 in steel E.H.S.

Actually, just a 180' Rohn 80 engineered by Rohn. Just doin what the
dang manufacturer recommends <g> It IS going to be loaded; it's designed
for (4) cell/pcs carriers, (48) 1-5/8" feedlines, and a couple of 40m
yagis with a two to one safety factor.

>Check out my website: www.erols.com/n3rr

Checked it out a cupla times, thanks Bill

73

--
Steve K8LX


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From bnowak@telocity.com  Tue Jul 24 00:36:51 2001
From: bnowak@telocity.com (Bradley Nowak)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:36:51 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] grounding
References: <000001c0edfe$e5fb4660$d21ffc9e@tony>
Message-ID: <000901c113d0$5a178260$0300a8c0@telocity.com>


With all the recent talk about grounding and my current grounding project, I
thought I would share a neat resource.  I found myself in need of a 16 Ga
copper sheet and 3/4" copper bar stock.  I found and tried Onlinemetals.com.
These guys have a great website and shipment was FAST!  If you're looking
for copper, aluminum etc. in almost any shape or form, check'em out.

Brad - N8SNM



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From ut4uz@idirect.com  Tue Jul 24 00:39:17 2001
From: ut4uz@idirect.com (Yuri VA3UZ)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:39:17 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] TH6DXX
Message-ID: <008001c113d2$09d812e0$4e0f9ad8@-yuri>


Since a lot of people asked me to share information on TH6DXX beta match
measurements I decided to post it to reflector.

I think N0AV, N6BM and W9JCC don't mind. Again big thanks to them for the
help.

N0AV:
> >I have three TH6's up on a 100' rotating tower. I climbed to the bottom
> >antenna and measured 2.75 inches between the end of the beta tubes and
the
> >center of the driven element. The beta tube insulator position is
probably
> >not too critical...it looks like my top one is about the same as the
bottom
> >one but the middle antenna has the insulator out a little further. On the
> >bottom TH6 the edge of the insulator is 6.5 inches from the center of the
> >driven element.
> >
****************************************************************************
**

N6BM:

Just took the measurement you wanted. The distance from the
center of the DE to the center of the first beta insulator is 7 3/16
inches. Hope this helps. Let me know if you need any more info.

****************************************************************************
****
W9JCC:
Yuri,
The distance to the beta support is not critical. My recollection is that
the two supports are placed about 6 to 8 inches from each end of the
large beta tubes. Refer to Figure 8 of the Manual.  I would estimate it
from the detailed picture in the manual. It is for mechanical integrity
only.  I have a TH6DXX in the garage attic, that has the Beta Match still
attached. The outside temp here is about 95 deg F and it must be over 50
deg C where the antenna is. So I'm not going there now.  If you have the
major pieces of the  Beta Match (The two long tubes and the "U" shapped
aluminum wire), it should be very easy to reconstruct. There should be a
small hole in the boom where the aluminum wire was clamped to the boom
with a sheet metal screw and clamp. That locates the far end of the beta
match. The two ends of the aluminum wire portion connect to the two large
tubes. The open ends of the two large tubes should end up at about the
distance of the driven element. ie (The wires connecting the Beta Match
to the driven element should each be ~ 4 inches long.)





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From hankarn@pacbell.net  Tue Jul 24 01:04:07 2001
From: hankarn@pacbell.net (Dan)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:04:07 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Lightning Observation
References: <000801c11398$27cd3080$4083c640@spelunk.sueno>
Message-ID: <3B5CBB77.A964887F@pacbell.net>


So you see if you pay attention you can learn something every day.
Thanks, Gene.
Hank
KN6DI

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From n1nk@home.com  Tue Jul 24 01:46:17 2001
From: n1nk@home.com (Jim Spears)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:46:17 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] tieing utility and tower grounds together
Message-ID: <004201c113da$0d2dfb00$7e04fea9@ports1.ri.home.com>


my planned installation has the tower at the opposite (long) end of the
house from the utility entrance.  this is where the power, phone, cable, etc
are all tied together on one galvanized pipe driven who knows how far into
the ground.  this area tends to be rocky so I hope that they hit it hard
enough to move the rocks.

given that I should tie together the utility ground point to the tower
ground point, what is the most efficient method when they are separated by
80 or 90 feet of linear distance along the walls, something more like 65
feet straight line.  putting the tower near the utility entrance is not an
option due to setback and overhanging trees.  with some trouble, I could run
a copper flashing strip along the back of the house then around the corner
up the side.

ideas???   suggestions???

jim
N1NK


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From W8JI@contesting.com  Tue Jul 24 01:42:29 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:42:29 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Routing Cables - Tower to shack
In-Reply-To: <007401c113a3$70f22940$4083c640@spelunk.sueno>
Message-ID: <200107240047.f6O0leZ20393@paris.akorn.net>


>      So I conclude that lightning energy impinging on a buried coax cable
> will at most have a surface/shield current flowing on it, which can be
> shunted to ground by a properly applied ground connection at the SPG panel
> outside my house/shack. 

That is generally the case, the exception would be if the shield had 
a high resistance or open connection...or of course if you had a 
large antenna hanging on the cable that was not balanced for DC.

Since lightning is like RF, it tends to follow the surface of 
conductors because that is the area enclosed by the fewest lines 
of flux (lowest impedance).

Absolutely the best thing is disconnecting the antennas and power 
line cables from you station when not in use. Don't depend on 
lightning arrestors!

I have a dislike for lightning arrestors, because I field about one or 
two calls a month from people who have amplifier problems caused 
by lightning arrestor problems.



73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From W8JI@contesting.com  Tue Jul 24 01:42:29 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:42:29 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80M dipoles/height gain
In-Reply-To: <20010723.132258.-243657.1.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <200107240047.f6O0lfZ20397@paris.akorn.net>


Hi Tom,

>  From North Alabama, my 130 ft high dipole is usually
Hi Tom,

>  better to most of Europe and Africa than my elevated GP 
>  or ground mounted wire vertical.  There ARE times when
>  the GP or vertical are better, especially to Northern EU.

How far are you verticals from other vertical metallic structures, and 
have you checked the patterns?

How good are your ground and feed systems?

How traditional are your verticals?


73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From n2wb@arrl.net  Tue Jul 24 01:52:40 2001
From: n2wb@arrl.net (William F. Beyer Jr.)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:52:40 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] re; HELP/INFO
Message-ID: <3B5CC6D8.C951318E@arrl.net>



Hello:

Where and what is the best place to get a metal electrical
enclosure (box) for base of  tower.
For remote coax box,  grounding items etc....

Thanks.
--
*See you in the pileups!

William/N2WB



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From n3rr@erols.com  Tue Jul 24 02:33:24 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:33:24 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] re; HELP/INFO
In-Reply-To: <3B5CC6D8.C951318E@arrl.net>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPOEEDCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>


I use NEMA Type 4 Hoffman steel enclosures.

See: http://www.hoffmanonline.com/

Their catalog is online at this URL
http://www.hoffmanonline.com/Product_Info/
and
 http://www.hoffmanonline.com/PDFCatalog/SpecifiersGuide/index.htm

NEMA Type 4 is the specification for outdoor use.

A picture of my installation is at:
http://users.erols.com/n3rr/photos/junction_box_at_tower_base-134.jpg
and http://users.erols.com/n3rr/photos/junction_box_at_tower_base-52-1.jpg
and http://users.erols.com/n3rr/photos/SPGbox_on_house.jpg

Complete installation details are at:
http://users.erols.com/n3rr/lightningprotection/index.htm

Hoffman boxes may be obtained from almost any electrical supply house.
Hoffman makes them in a large variety of sizes.  My local electrical supply
house ordered them for me in a couple of days. They are not inexpensive, but
they are top-line enclosures.  I consider them the "best" and that is what
William was asking for.

73,
Bill, N3RR



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of William F. Beyer Jr.
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 8:53 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com TOWER
Subject: [TowerTalk] re; HELP/INFO




Hello:

Where and what is the best place to get a metal electrical
enclosure (box) for base of  tower.
For remote coax box,  grounding items etc....

Thanks.
--
*See you in the pileups!

William/N2WB



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From n3rr@erols.com  Tue Jul 24 02:52:52 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:52:52 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] tieing utility and tower grounds together
In-Reply-To: <004201c113da$0d2dfb00$7e04fea9@ports1.ri.home.com>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPMEEECDAA.n3rr@erols.com>


Jim,

You will see from my installation
http://users.erols.com/n3rr/photos/grounding_pictorial.jpg that I had the
same issue where my Single Point Ground (SPG) entry point into the house was
some 40 feet from the electrical/phone entry point.

I suggest you create a ground-grid using a series of 8 foot ground rods,
spaced 16 feet apart and 8 feet away from the house, and connected to that
galvanized ground rod connected to the electrical/phone.  Then connect the
other end of this ground grid to one of the ground rods at the tower. Keep
all ground rods no closer than the sum of the lengths of the rods being
connected together.  Since I can only form a mental picture your
installation from your description, I think I have it right.  By using a
ground grid as I described, *at the ground rods*, you may "direct" the grid
to any direction necessary.  That way, you can route it to the tower which
sounds like it's around the corner of the building from the A/C entry.

If I have interpreted it wrong, let me know.  Take a look at my installation
by looking at my Website:
http://users.erols.com/n3rr/lightningprotection/index.htm.  Then ask
questions.

73,
Bill, N3RR

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Jim Spears
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 8:46 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] tieing utility and tower grounds together



my planned installation has the tower at the opposite (long) end of the
house from the utility entrance.  this is where the power, phone, cable, etc
are all tied together on one galvanized pipe driven who knows how far into
the ground.  this area tends to be rocky so I hope that they hit it hard
enough to move the rocks.

given that I should tie together the utility ground point to the tower
ground point, what is the most efficient method when they are separated by
80 or 90 feet of linear distance along the walls, something more like 65
feet straight line.  putting the tower near the utility entrance is not an
option due to setback and overhanging trees.  with some trouble, I could run
a copper flashing strip along the back of the house then around the corner
up the side.

ideas???   suggestions???

jim
N1NK


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From kb7ww@uswest.net  Tue Jul 24 03:06:32 2001
From: kb7ww@uswest.net (KB7WW Art Moe)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:06:32 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] RE: Ham-M parts THANKS
Message-ID: <3B5CD828.85C1C925@uswest.net>


Thanks to all who offered help on U-Bolts, found some.

TKS AGN

Art
KB7WW

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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Tue Jul 24 04:07:30 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:07:30 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Fw: reply  (Bencher Skyhawk wind area)
Message-ID: <00d401c113ed$c9fc0c00$6d83c640@spelunk.sueno>


TT:

     Here is Bencher's reply to my query about whether I correctly
calculated the wind area of their Skyhawk tribander (I calculated 12+ sqft
of element area alone, and their specs say 8.5 sqft.)  Also included is my
response to their reply (?).  I needed further clarification (and maybe you
will, too) on HOW they figured out the aea.

     I waited until today for their second reply.  Not here yet.


73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>
To: bencher <bencher@ameritech.net>
Date: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: reply


>I appreciate your response.  Thanks for going through the trouble.
However,
>I still don't understand HOW you calculate the 8.5 sqft.  How did you
arrive
>at that figure, and not 7.2 sqft or 10.6 sqft (to pull random figures out
of
>the air as examples.)  Does this figure account for turbulence of the
>windstream behind an element (the shielding you mentioned in your reply)?
>
>What I want to do is determine, via aerodynamic calculations, the wind
force
>exerted by an 85 mph wind on the Skyhawk at the worst-case orientation (and
>what IS that orientation?)  The equations I've found go something like the
>following:  F = CAP, where C = 1.2 for long, thin tubular structures like
>Yagi elements, A = rectangular projected area (shadow area) of the elements
>(length X diameter for each segment), and P = wind pressure (psf) = 0.00256
>X V ^2(mph) X sin^2 (Angle of element to wind direction).  This is from a
>1960's aerodynamic engineering text.
>
>Can you provide more detail on the 8.5 sqft?  Thanks again.
>
>
>73 de
>Gene Smar  AD3F
>-----Original Message-----
>From: bencher <bencher@ameritech.net>
>To: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>
>Date: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 2:11 PM
>Subject: reply
>
>
>>Well, it's right - and it's wrong, depending on what you are trying to
>>do.
>>Your calculations are correct in the sense that that is the surface
>>square
>>footage. But since at any angle of view a good part of the antenna is
>>shielded
>>by other portions of the antenna that is not the usual way of measuring
>>wind
>>load area. In fact the amount of surface presented to the wind never
>>exceeds
>>about 8.5 square feet.
>>
>>OK?
>>
>>73
>>
>>Bencher, Inc.
>>
>


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From n4kg@juno.com  Tue Jul 24 03:28:02 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:28:02 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80M dipoles/height gain
Message-ID: <20010723.222514.-85377.0.N4KG@juno.com>


On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 "Tom Rauch" <w8ji@akorn.net> writes:
> 
> Hi Tom,
> 
> >  From North Alabama, my 130 ft high dipole is usually
> >  better to most of Europe and Africa than my elevated GP 
> >  or ground mounted wire vertical.  There ARE times when
> >  the GP or vertical are better, especially to Northern EU.

	The elevated GP has been 6 to 10 dB stronger
	on RX and TX into OH / SM around 0500Z.
	It 'plays' well into HL / JA / UA0 and the Pacific.
> 
> How far are you verticals from other vertical metallic structures, 
> and  have you checked the patterns?

	The Elevated GP is 75 ft North of my 55 ft tower
	with 5L10's at 32 and 62 ft plus 4L15 at 55 ft.
	This does seem to affect the pattern to the South
	since I was unable to work XZ0A at sunset on the
	GP but did work them on the wire vertical located
	in the SE corner of my property (~150 ft east of
	a 130 ft tower with 80M inverted vee at 100 ft and
	3L15 on top.  The #14 Wire Vertical (1/2 bowtie) has
	50 radials, mostly 100 ft long except due East
	where they are 70 ft.  Fed with 1/2 inch CATV
	hardline to 1/4 WL of RG59.   N4KG

	Property is 540 ft N/S, 300 ft E at N end, 	400 ft E 
	at S End.  Wandering creek forms E boundary.
> 
> How good are your ground and feed systems?
	See above.
 
> How traditional are your verticals?  
	See JUNE 1994 QST for elevated GP
	Feed impedance is 17 ohms resistive at 3.6 MHz
	fed with parallel 1/4 WL RG59 to 150 ft of 1/2 inch
	CATV hardline.  10 radials insulated from tower.
> 	N4KG
> 
> 73, Tom W8JI
> W8JI@contesting.com 
>
________________________________________________________________
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Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jul 24 05:05:28 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:05:28 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Official TT Message to All Outlook Users from TT Administrator
Message-ID: <a3.19238fae.288e4e08@aol.com>


    I do the list housekeeping for TowerTalk. Most of what I do is handle 
bounced messages. 

    MANY Microsoft Outlook and Outlook Express users are unable to post to 
TowerTalk because they are in MIME format which contesting.com can't handle. 

    GO TO TOOLS AND TURN IT OFF. You need to be in text mode. If you're in 
MIME format, you're SOL. 

    Please - I'd like to spend less time telling people and more time doing 
anything else. I probably do it a half-dozen times a day, 365 days a year. 
YOUR HELP IS APPRECIATED. Tnx.

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
TowerTalk Administrator

    

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jul 24 05:08:17 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:08:17 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Official TT Message to AOL Users from TT Administrator
Message-ID: <10f.2c68d89.288e4eb1@aol.com>


    I do the list housekeeping for TowerTalk. Most of what I do is handle 
bounced messages. 

    If you're using AOL V6 - IT'S NOT COMPATIBLE WITH TOWERTALK. It's 
hardwired for MIME formatting which contesting.com can't handle. You need to 
either use V5 or www.aol.com if you want to post something to TowerTalk. 

    Please - I'd like to spend less time telling people and more time doing 
anything else. I probably do it 3-4 times a day, 365 days a year. YOUR HELP 
IS APPRECIATED. Tnx. 

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
TowerTalk Administrator

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From hankarn@pacbell.net  Tue Jul 24 05:22:30 2001
From: hankarn@pacbell.net (Dan)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:22:30 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Official TT Message to AOL Users from TT Administrator
References: <10f.2c68d89.288e4eb1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B5CF806.702F734A@pacbell.net>


You can solve the problem by \"UN-SUB-SCRIN-ING them and they may get
the msg that MS sucks.
Hank
KN6DI

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From jimr.reid@verizon.net  Tue Jul 24 05:34:18 2001
From: jimr.reid@verizon.net (Jim Reid)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 18:34:18 -1000
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80M dipoles/height gain
References: <20010723.222514.-85377.0.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <001901c113f9$ec6040c0$a1040304@vz.dsl.genuity.net>


This series of information has been one of the
great benefits  of this reflector.  Praise to those
who are participating.  Just wish I had the QTH to
allow some of this info to become applied, hi.

Have a huge amount of "still" unused plantation
land,  which was supposed to have gone over to
horses a couple of years ago.  But,  ever since I
took down all my encroaching antenna wires and poles;
no horses,  nor anything else!!

I might just as well start putting stuff up again as I 
think no one will ever go back there again;  it has
just become way to overgrown with the ever creeping
galloping Great Green Menace!

73,  Jim  KH7M



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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jul 24 05:51:47 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:51:47 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Base/Footing for LM470 - Water seepage into hole
Message-ID: <3d.ed21589.288e58e3@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/23/01 10:45:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
MWapner@Vetronix.com writes:

> I am ready to install the rebar base into the hole and pour the mud.  Should
>  I be concerned about this seepage?

    No. As long as there isn't much standing water when you pour the 
concrete; not much being a couple of inches or less. That's not much water as 
these things go. 

>  Has anyone experienced this in their installation?

    Sure, it depends on where the water table is and what time of year. I've 
worked in dry holes and I've worked in holes that had to be pumped everyday 
of the foot or more water that came in overnight. I wouldn't worry about it. 

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jul 24 05:57:40 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:57:40 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: US Towers 472 coax question
Message-ID: <35.1831c463.288e5a44@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/23/01 1:23:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jfarber@sprynet.com writes:

> I just got my US Towers 472 MDP tower up, with a 31 L Tennadye log for
>  50-1300 at the top and a KLM 6M7LB yagi below it. I am trying to figure the
>  distance between coax arms that the coax should be taped to. I can't seem 
to
>  locate that spec in the US towers material. In other words, when the tower
>  is fully extended, what is the distance between consecutive coax arms?

    Actually I prefer to secure them at the top coax arm and then let them 
run thru the others without being secured. It's very time consuming to tape 
the cables, run the tower up and see if it's right (it'll always be too long 
or too short), run it down, make an adjustment, repeat many times.

    When the tower is lowered, the cables just lay on the ground until you 
raise it.

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From w6ru@bak.rr.com  Tue Jul 24 06:22:17 2001
From: w6ru@bak.rr.com (Terry Gaiser)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 22:22:17 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Licensed Engineering
Message-ID: <002001c11400$9ec3eb80$6701a8c0@w6ruwin2000>


Anyone know of a reasonably priced California licensed engineer that does
drawings and calculations per UBC for monopole tower structures? The fellow
that did my originals is no longer with us.

TNX MUCH,
Terry W6RU



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From Larry Alkoff" <labradley@mindspring.com  Tue Jul 24 08:34:58 2001
From: Larry Alkoff" <labradley@mindspring.com (Larry Alkoff)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 02:34:58 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] tieing utility and tower grounds together
In-Reply-To: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPMEEECDAA.n3rr@erols.com>
Message-ID: <200107240741.f6O7flJu015657@sm10.texas.rr.com>


Bill I also have the problem of widely separated grounding points.

In my case, utility at one corner, cable TV and telephone at opposite corner, ham shack in rear middle of house.

Here in Texas we have a lot of rock.  The only way to insert ground rods vertically is to drill
and with 16 foot separation I would have a lot of rock holes to drill!

For my tower I use 9 radials of 1.5" copper in a two foot trench.  No ground rods.
Do you think that would be adequate to run around the house for grounds?

Thanks, Larry N2LA



Larry Alkoff N2LA - Austin TX



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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jul 24 14:22:59 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 09:22:59 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] tieing utility and tower grounds together
Message-ID: <ce.17d60cd4.288ed0b3@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/24/01 12:43:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
labradley@mindspring.com writes:

> Here in Texas we have a lot of rock.  The only way to insert ground rods 
> vertically is to drill
>  and with 16 foot separation I would have a lot of rock holes to drill!

    You can also put ground rods in horizontally in the case of rocky 'soil'. 
Obviously go as deep as is practical but even if they're only a foot down 
they will be helpful. 
>  
>  For my tower I use 9 radials of 1.5" copper in a two foot trench.  No 
ground 
> rods.
>  Do you think that would be adequate to run around the house for grounds?

    Would what be adequate? I'm not sure what you're referring to. You mean 
more radials around the house or hooking everything together or...?

    Copper strap is better than wire since it gives you more surface area for 
earth contact so it's the preferred material for rocky soil. 

    Since you're in a high lightning area I would add some horizontal ground 
rods to the house part of the system. 

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From n2rd@arrl.net  Tue Jul 24 14:31:09 2001
From: n2rd@arrl.net (Rajiv Dewan, N2RD)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:31:09 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk]
Message-ID: <002f01c11444$e6ce5ca0$1101000a@shack>


There is one other option to consider: two parallel dipoles, 
fed 180 degrees out of phase - the W8JK antenna.  The radiation 
from the two elements cancels straight up and the combination 
has a low angle of radiation and low radiation resistance.  
The radiation resistance rises as the antenna is raised above 
ground. Matching and efficiency is a big problem.  I built one
and used ladder line for 1/4 wave stub for matching.  
The SWR varied a lot with the weather.


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From KD4OL@aol.com  Tue Jul 24 14:44:15 2001
From: KD4OL@aol.com (KD4OL@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 09:44:15 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna Modeling Question Update
Message-ID: <91.dc7015a.288ed5af@aol.com>


I want to thank those of you who responded to my question.  Several 
recommended W7EL's EZNEC V3.0 program.  

I looked at his demonstration program but was unable to use it properly to 
fit my needs.  I probably lack some software navigational ability.  
Suggestions?

I intend to put up a 100 - 120 foot tower with either two or three 10 meter 
yagis.    I have three Telrex 10 meter yagis in which I could use in a 
stacked configuration vertically.  Two of them are 5 elements each on 23 foot 
booms and one has 10 elements on a 45 foot boom.  

I would like to get the best configuration for not only dx but for long 
distance ground wave.  I thought that by mounting the longer boom yagi at the 
top, with the smaller ones lower, that would be the best overall.  However, I 
would like to be able to see what the experts think is best with this.  

Also, I have a nice 6 element 20 meter Telrex that I would like to see if it 
is possible to mount it at the top of the tower with the long boom 10 meter 
yagi about 8 feet or so above it.  This would complicate matters, I suppose 
but i am interested to see if it is possible for the tower to handle this.  

I intend to use either a Rohn 45 or maybe 55 type tower, fully guyed.  I 
would probably have to use heavier and stronger guys at the top section than 
recommended by Rohn.   Don' t know how much to heavy-up.

I realize that I would need a matching system, perhaps from WX0B for the 10 
meter system.  Of course the 20 meter antenna would have its own separate 
coax.

Since I want to get it right the first time, and not do alot of "maintenance" 
or systems alternations later, I would appreciate the collective wisdom from 
this fine group such as you all.  What do you suggest?  

Hank
KD4OL


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From W8JI@contesting.com  Tue Jul 24 14:45:07 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 09:45:07 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80M dipoles/height gain
In-Reply-To: <20010723.222514.-85377.0.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <200107241350.f6ODotZ02141@paris.akorn.net>


Hi Tom,

Like most cases, the installation is too complex to tell what is 
causing what.

>  The Elevated GP is 75 ft North of my 55 ft tower
>  with 5L10's at 32 and 62 ft plus 4L15 at 55 ft.
>  This does seem to affect the pattern to the South
>  since I was unable to work XZ0A at sunset on the
>  GP but did work them on the wire vertical located

Even without any measurements, we know that is a situation where 
more than one "antenna" radiates significantly at any one time.

> > How traditional are your verticals?  
>  See JUNE 1994 QST for elevated GP
>  Feed impedance is 17 ohms resistive at 3.6 MHz
>  fed with parallel 1/4 WL RG59 to 150 ft of 1/2 inch
>  CATV hardline.  10 radials insulated from tower.

Of course the efficiency of that setup can be all over the place, as 
can the pattern.

With so many unknowns, there is no way to tell how much 
polarization and/or wave angle is responsible and how much 
efficiency/pattern is responsible for differences.

This is almost always why what works at times at one location is 
not repeatable at other locations. Unfortunately all we can talk 
about are ideal cases, and hope everyone can come close.


73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jul 24 15:21:07 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:21:07 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna Modeling Question Update
Message-ID: <38.194f0e73.288ede53@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/24/01 6:45:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, KD4OL@aol.com 
writes:

> I intend to use either a Rohn 45 or maybe 55 type tower, fully guyed.  I 
>  would probably have to use heavier and stronger guys at the top section 
than 
>  recommended by Rohn.   Don' t know how much to heavy-up.
>  
    I take it from your remark that you don't have a Rohn catalog since it 
spells out all the specs that you asked about; i.e. tower capacity and guy 
sizes. It's mandatory that you have one to help in your planning and 
construction. They're available from  <A HREF="http://www.championradio.com">
www.championradio.com</A>

    The primary installation planning/building spec is your local county 
windspeed. What is it? That will make most of the decisions for you. You can 
look up the TIA-222 county windspeed ratings at the same website under Tech 
Notes. 

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Champion Radio Products
Tower Tech 

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From Larry Alkoff" <labradley@mindspring.com  Tue Jul 24 15:17:36 2001
From: Larry Alkoff" <labradley@mindspring.com (Larry Alkoff)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 09:17:36 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] tieing utility and tower grounds together
In-Reply-To: <ce.17d60cd4.288ed0b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200107241424.f6OEOIIg013395@texlog2.texas.rr.com>


On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 09:22:59 EDT, K7LXC@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 7/24/01 12:43:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>labradley@mindspring.com writes:
>
>> Here in Texas we have a lot of rock.  The only way to insert ground rods 
>> vertically is to drill
>>  and with 16 foot separation I would have a lot of rock holes to drill!
>
>    You can also put ground rods in horizontally in the case of rocky 'soil'. 
>Obviously go as deep as is practical but even if they're only a foot down 
>they will be helpful. 
>>  
>>  For my tower I use 9 radials of 1.5" copper in a two foot trench.  No 
>ground 
>> rods.
>>  Do you think that would be adequate to run around the house for grounds?
>
>    Would what be adequate? I'm not sure what you're referring to. You mean 
>more radials around the house or hooking everything together or...?



I meant deep buried radials w/o ground rods compared to horizontal ground rods with
shallow connecting radials or wire for the house part of the system.



>    Copper strap is better than wire since it gives you more surface area for 
>earth contact so it's the preferred material for rocky soil. 
>
>    Since you're in a high lightning area I would add some horizontal ground 
>rods to the house part of the system. 
>
>Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
>Tower Tech 



Larry Alkoff N2LA - Austin TX



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From n3rr@erols.com  Tue Jul 24 15:31:47 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:31:47 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna Modeling Question Update
In-Reply-To: <91.dc7015a.288ed5af@aol.com>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPAEEPCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>


Hank,

You asked four questions:

1. EZNEC works fine.  You need to be an experienced Windows, PC and software
user to use it.  I have modeled all of my antennas/stacks/towers etc.  It is
able to show the interaction between the antennas on the same and on
different towers and their patterns very nicely.  I'm not sure what
navigation problem you had.

2.  EZNEC will provide answers for your questions about the performance of
the 10M stack, the 10 ele at the top, the 10 ele 10 and the 6 ele 20
interaction, etc.  No need to get opinions.  The model will tell you all you
need to know.

3.  Your last question, however, is not something EZNEC will answer.  That
is the question about the tower loading with all those antennas.  I'd
suggest you first look at a ROHN catalog, add up all of your windloads and
see which ROHN tower  of the height you need is in the ballpark, load-wise.
That is, which one will handle your loading just based on the ROHN
information in the catalog.  That will ballpark it.  You should have a PE
mechanical engineer do the complete analysis to assure yourself that it will
be safe.  You'll probably need that for any building permit as well.  Even
if you don't need a permit, the PE analysis will let you sleep better at
night.

4.  There are several ways to match stacks.  WX0B and Top Ten Devices makes
matching systems.  There's also the tried and true 1/4 wave coax matching
system (that I use!).   Putting a relay box switch on the tower adds another
point of failure.  Equal lengths of coax back to the shack with manual
switching of 1/4 wave matching coax eliminates that failure point.  Relay
switching is faster to perform than manual switching. So there are a number
of methods to solve the problem, each with their own advantages and
disadvantages.

GL es 73,

Bill, N3RR

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of KD4OL@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 9:44 AM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna Modeling Question Update



I want to thank those of you who responded to my question.  Several
recommended W7EL's EZNEC V3.0 program.

I looked at his demonstration program but was unable to use it properly to
fit my needs.  I probably lack some software navigational ability.
Suggestions?

I intend to put up a 100 - 120 foot tower with either two or three 10 meter
yagis.    I have three Telrex 10 meter yagis in which I could use in a
stacked configuration vertically.  Two of them are 5 elements each on 23
foot
booms and one has 10 elements on a 45 foot boom.

I would like to get the best configuration for not only dx but for long
distance ground wave.  I thought that by mounting the longer boom yagi at
the
top, with the smaller ones lower, that would be the best overall.  However,
I
would like to be able to see what the experts think is best with this.

Also, I have a nice 6 element 20 meter Telrex that I would like to see if it
is possible to mount it at the top of the tower with the long boom 10 meter
yagi about 8 feet or so above it.  This would complicate matters, I suppose
but i am interested to see if it is possible for the tower to handle this.

I intend to use either a Rohn 45 or maybe 55 type tower, fully guyed.  I
would probably have to use heavier and stronger guys at the top section than
recommended by Rohn.   Don' t know how much to heavy-up.

I realize that I would need a matching system, perhaps from WX0B for the 10
meter system.  Of course the 20 meter antenna would have its own separate
coax.

Since I want to get it right the first time, and not do alot of
"maintenance"
or systems alternations later, I would appreciate the collective wisdom from
this fine group such as you all.  What do you suggest?

Hank
KD4OL


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From W8JI@contesting.com  Tue Jul 24 16:23:46 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:23:46 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] tieing utility and tower grounds together
In-Reply-To: <200107241424.f6OEOIIg013395@texlog2.texas.rr.com>
References: <ce.17d60cd4.288ed0b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200107241529.f6OFTpZ06221@paris.akorn.net>


 
> 
> >    Copper strap is better than wire since it gives you more surface area
> >    for 
> >earth contact so it's the preferred material for rocky soil. 

Just be sure the copper strap is not braided or woven, especially if 
it is subject to weather! Use solid smooth copper flashing for all 
important grounds!

 
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From w9jcc@juno.com  Tue Jul 24 16:20:55 2001
From: w9jcc@juno.com (Frank C. Travanty)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:20:55 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: US Towers 472 coax question
Message-ID: <20010724.103021.-16623939.0.w9jcc@juno.com>


Ditto,
I've used free standing crank ups for over 30 years, and never taped any
lines where they can "slide" thru the hoops. I try to do a good job of
strain relief at the top hoop - usually use a layer or two of old water
hose over the cables, and electrical tape to form a gradual loop before
going vertical.  When the tower is lowered, I just toss the excess over a
nearby bush.

Frank W9JCC

On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:42:33 -0400 Jeff Singer <k2kv@reallybig.com>
writes:
> 
> Why tape them up? Personally, I would just let the coax slide 
> through the
> loops.
> 
> When the tower comes down and goes up repetitively, the coax will 
> BEND
> uncomfortably at the tape points, causing inevitable eventual damage 
> and
> failure.
> 
> Just my opinion, of course.
> 
> 73 de Jeff K2KV
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of John Farber
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 4:19 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: US Towers 472 coax question
> 
> 
> 
> I just got my US Towers 472 MDP tower up, with a 31 L Tennadye log 
> for
> 50-1300 at the top and a KLM 6M7LB yagi below it. I am trying to 
> figure the
> distance between coax arms that the coax should be taped to. I can't 
> seem to
> locate that spec in the US towers material. In other words, when the 
> tower
> is fully extended, what is the distance between consecutive coax 
> arms?
> Thanks, 73, John KG6I
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
> Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers 
> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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From nielsen@oz.net  Tue Jul 24 17:33:18 2001
From: nielsen@oz.net (Bob Nielsen)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 09:33:18 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna Modeling Question Update
In-Reply-To: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPAEEPCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>
Message-ID: <20010724093318.C20096@oz.net>


On Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 10:31:47AM -0400, Bill Hider wrote:
> 
> Hank,
> 
> You asked four questions:
> 
> 1. EZNEC works fine.  You need to be an experienced Windows, PC and software
> user to use it.  I have modeled all of my antennas/stacks/towers etc.  It is
> able to show the interaction between the antennas on the same and on
> different towers and their patterns very nicely.  I'm not sure what
> navigation problem you had.
> 
> 2.  EZNEC will provide answers for your questions about the performance of
> the 10M stack, the 10 ele at the top, the 10 ele 10 and the 6 ele 20
> interaction, etc.  No need to get opinions.  The model will tell you all you
> need to know.
> 

This is a complicated enough combination that the demo version of
EZNEC, which only allows for 20 segments, won't be able to model it
very well at all.  The full version accomodates 500 segments.  For
simple antennas, the agreement between the two is fairly good.

Bob, N7XY

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From n2mg@contesting.com  Tue Jul 24 18:35:12 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 24 Jul 2001 10:35:12 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: US Towers 472 coax question
Message-ID: <20010724173512.2947.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>


I feel it necessary to say that I DID tie off my coax 
at each coax arm on my former crank-up (72 footer, 4 
sections).  It's not rocket science to get it right.  
Each arm had a small coax loop to allow a 
little "slop" in the measurements.  Advantages include 
less strain (OK, it's not THAT important) on the top 
tape/tie job (and the coax in its vicinity), less 
chance for snags on the way up or down (all coax 
moving up and down is already airborne), and no coil 
of coax on the ground to have to move/mow around.

73 Mike N2MG

On Tue, 24 July 2001, "Frank C. Travanty" wrote:

> 
> 
> Ditto,
> I've used free standing crank ups for over 30 years, and never taped any
> lines where they can "slide" thru the hoops. I try to do a good job of
> strain relief at the top hoop - usually use a layer or two of old water
> hose over the cables, and electrical tape to form a gradual loop before
> going vertical.  When the tower is lowered, I just toss the excess over a
> nearby bush.
> 
> Frank W9JCC
> 
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:42:33 -0400 Jeff Singer <k2kv@reallybig.com>
> writes:
> > 
> > Why tape them up? Personally, I would just let the coax slide 
> > through the
> > loops.
> > 
> > When the tower comes down and goes up repetitively, the coax will 
> > BEND
> > uncomfortably at the tape points, causing inevitable eventual damage 
> > and
> > failure.
> > 
> > Just my opinion, of course.
> > 
> > 73 de Jeff K2KV
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of John Farber
> > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 4:19 PM
> > To: towertalk@contesting.com
> > Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: US Towers 472 coax question
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I just got my US Towers 472 MDP tower up, with a 31 L Tennadye log 
> > for
> > 50-1300 at the top and a KLM 6M7LB yagi below it. I am trying to 
> > figure the
> > distance between coax arms that the coax should be taped to. I can't 
> > seem to
> > locate that spec in the US towers material. In other words, when the 
> > tower
> > is fully extended, what is the distance between consecutive coax 
> > arms?
> > Thanks, 73, John KG6I

________________________________________________
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http://www.peoplepc.com 

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From Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com  Tue Jul 24 18:52:20 2001
From: Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com (Kenneth Hirschberg)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:52:20 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40M non-interaction
Message-ID: <005401c11469$63f92b00$546a530c@ken>


Dan -
You might consider making a 2-driven element 40M beam, a-la HB9CV, or
CAL-AV's 2D-40.  You'll get a much better front to rear ratio, a much
shorter boom, and the resonance (of the CAL-AV) will be up at  24+ MHz.
The model for the 2D-40 will be published on the web in a couple of weeks.
73, Ken
K6HPX


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From James.E.Brown@lrdor.usace.army.mil  Tue Jul 24 18:54:54 2001
From: James.E.Brown@lrdor.usace.army.mil (Brown, James E LRDOR)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:54:54 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] FW: Pro-Search Interface
Message-ID: <49B1F0812748D211A39100805F9FA681012CE62A@lrdormail01.lrd.usace.army.mil>




-----Original Message-----
From: Brown, James E LRDOR 
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:30 PM
To: 'cq-contest@contesting.com'; 'towertalk@contesting.com'
Subject: Pro-Search Interface


I have a Pro-Search PSE-1 rotator controller system (SN PSE-1-S-2545).  It
is working fine.  However, I notice from the operator's manual that it can
be interfaced to a PC through a serial port.  There is a 20-pin socket on
the back for this purpose (I don't have a 20-pin plug to fit it either).
There is no information in the manual on how to actually do this, or what
software would be or could be required to make it work.  Also, this unit is
from the early 80's, which could make things difficult.

This is a nice, compact unit which will turn the rotator to any pre-set
heading at the touch of a button, or you can use manual control, or you can
punch in the heading and it will go there.  It also has a built in brake
delay, a TX-2 "unjam the brake" function, and a "scan" feature which will
turn the beam 10 degrees and stop for a period, then go another 10 degrees,
etc. until a quadrant has been scanned, then start back the other direction.

Anyone with any info or hardware for interfacing this with a PC, please let
me know.

Thanks         Jim       W4LC

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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Tue Jul 24 23:04:07 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:04:07 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80 meter yagis
Message-ID: <20010724220502.JVKG22850.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@[192.168.0.20]>


On 7/23/01 1:48 PM, J. Kincade at w5kp@swbell.net wrote:

>
>Son of a gun. I guess I'll quit worrying about overloading the new 80' 45G
>with a shorty 40 and a C3XLD. :-)

Rick's 80m yagi is so high, it looks like a 2 element 40m beam from the 
ground. When lowered, you get an idea how big it is. Huge.

The tower with the 80m yagi, and 20m and 10m Eu stacks is a pretty awsome 
sight.



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901



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From K7GCO@aol.com  Wed Jul 25 00:18:10 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 19:18:10 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: conesting.com: host not found)
Message-ID: <33.18530985.288f5c32@aol.com>


I In a message dated 7/20/01 2:29:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
 charlie.ocker@tellabs.com writes:
  << 
   Bill Coleman wrote:
   > How about mounting a balun outside, and bringing coax underground / into
   > the building?
   
   A balun work's best when it see's a pure resistance, or nearly so.  A
   balun at the end of a piece of coax, feeding a length of balanced line
   that feeds an antenna, will almost be guaranteed to see a reactive load.
   
   A better idea would be to place the balun at the input of a balanced
   tuner.  If there are difficulties in bringing in the balanced line to
   the tuner, then a small section of shielded balanced line can be
   employed.
   
   73,  Charlie  N9CO    (no expert on balanced lines, just my empirical
   observations)
    >>
  A random coax length and a short open wire line here adds up to a length 
 that can often increase (but not always) the reactive component on each 
band. 
  As I suggested a balanced 100 or 150 ohm coax "Needs No Balun", matches the 
 loop fairly close on the various bands, is very tolerant to SWRs above 2:1 
on 
 160,80&40M, presents low reactive Z's to the tuner with a loop cut for say 
 1.78 MHz on all band and a coax that is multiple of 91' 2" of .66 VF.  It 
 matches easily and quickly with the 2 knobs of a Match Box also modified for 
 160M.  I've been there and done that off an on now for about 50 years to be 
 fairly firm on my recommendation for the least problems. 
 
 I've had tuners at the antenna controlled with 2 selsyns and a stepping band 
 switch but on the LF's, it's a "total waste of time 2 ways and a serious 
 elevated housing problem".  Open wire line (of certain lengths) is so 
 forgivig with the proper tuner in the shack and knowledge how to use it, 
this 
 system is very practical indeed.  6M an up tuners and amplifiers at the 
 antenna is a good idea.   Keep it simple.
  
  If you can use open wire line the losses are even less and far cheaper than 
 coax.  One TTer has a full size 80M vertical 500' or more way fed with open 
 wire line, 2 low loss baluns, had a measured loss less than a dB as I 
 remember, it doesn't change and is easy to repair if needed.  I don't think 
 the coax exists with that low loss at any cost for that length.  Use 
 multiples of 137' for .98 VF and 123' for 450 ohm ladder .89 VF line for the 
 friendliest Z's the tuner will ever see on all bands.  ARRL keeps making the 
 serious mistake of recommending "open wire line of any length".  That has 
 done more to lower the popularity of open wire line and those who have 
 trouble adjusting the Match Box and/or other tuners than any other factor in 
 Ham Radio.  Running it on top of a wooden fence line is a great idea.  If 
you 
 don't have a wooden fence--put one in whether you need it or not.  Feedline 
 Security you know.  Or dress it up, use big poles and make it look like a 
 110V power line and it "will look natural" even to the neigbors.
  
  The "Cloud Warmer" label for the Horizontal Quad Loops is really not 
 accurate in one sence.  It infers the Clouds are "resistive."   Actually all 
 RF goes through clouds and with high angle it goes through 2 horizontal 
 layers.  With a low angle the RF goes through a long length of the Cloud 
 layer twice again which in miles can be much longer.  If clouds are 
resistive 
 the loss would be higher for the same thickness of them.  High angle is 
 optimum for most contacts on the LF's other than for DX and high angle is 
 open 24 hours a day year around where low angle skip isn't.  The RF after 
 using a small area under the antenna for a reflector which can be improved 
 with a small square radial system or chicken wire, will not touch ground 
 before it hits most of the receiving antenna first.  It's a very low loss 
 path all the way.  I call it the "Slam Dunk Antenna."  It often does better 
 than a dipole the same height for certain reasons that aren't entirely 
 obvious other than it's actually a 2 element beam with a quad DE already 
with 
 2 dB gain with a higher feedpoint Z.  It reaches out very well also.  The 
75M 
 loop I had 20' high with no radial system under it in SD fed with 137' of 
 open wire line would give a 20/9 report with 100W into Seattle no dipole 
 would.  This performance was hard to explain and I didn't really care--it 
 flat out worked great.  It worked great on 160M also.
 
 The only antenna I had in SD prior to '56 that worked on a par on 75M was a 
 top loaded 75M dipole 60' high with the feeders tied together.  W7IIP then 
 W8IIP was the first I heard using it from Bremerton,Wa and he had a great 
 signal 3-6 S units above its strength used as a horizontal as was similar 
 with my horizontal.  I'm anxious to add a ground system under horizontal 
 loops to see what it does for the signal at all distances and will have the 
 chance to do this for a show down side by side--one with and one without.
 
 Enjoy the mystery, use one and tell your own signal success stories.  If you 
 want DX put up a 4 Square or a "vertical in the middle of the loop," play 
the 
 various phasing games and share a dual radial system--it's been done before 
 and it works.  How about a horizontal loop suspended inbetween the tips of a 
 4 square?  It's worth a try in Eznec first.  To reduce coupling to the 4 
 Square tips whatever it might be, one could install the loop for the next 
 highr band.  There is a way to load a quad loop at 1/2 F and it will still 
 have great performance with a similar broadside pattern.  Be creative!  K7GCO
   

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From K7GCO@aol.com  Wed Jul 25 01:32:27 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:32:27 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna Modeling Question
Message-ID: <7f.17a7722d.288f6d9b@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/22/01 7:19:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, KD4OL@aol.com 
writes:

<< 
 Request info on obtaining Antenna Modeling software regarding stacked yagis 
 (2 possibly 3) for 10 meters.  Looking for software that is very user 
 friendly.  Your assistance would be appreciated.
 
 Thank you,
  >>
Eznec works just fine.  However I did discover someting about stacked 
vertically polarized beams on a horizontal boom also applicable to horizontal 
stacking.  A general roll of thumb is this.  The optimum spacing is 1/2 wave 
for 2 element beams, 5/8 wave for 3 element bams and wider as the gain of 
each beam increases.  If less than optimum spacing is used there is less gain 
and and more upset of F/B and SWR between the beams.  If wider than optimum 
the 3 dB gain increase stays the same with the lobe sharpening a bit and 2 
ears form.  10M and higher beams can be rotated on a horizontal boom to a 
vertical pick up antenna for a pattern check, the spacing modified as needed 
for "No Ears" and/or then changed to horizontal stacking or use Eznec.

The problem I detected is with 2 element beams using 1/2 spacing and Plumbers 
Delight construction.  The boom acts like a resonant element for both DE's.  
It's hot with RFand then it couples to the mast and tower.  I did a series of 
tests in Eznec and it showed what the different spacings do for RF Spill Over 
on to the booms, mast and tower.  You can see the current loops and relative 
amplitude on the screen with the antenna.  A current chart will give you the 
relative current level all over the array also.  The higher gain beams tend 
to have spacings where the connecting booms are less resonant and "reduce the 
problem".  I willl run tests on 2M on this concept with different gain beams 
with the elements grounded to the boom and then insulated masts etc.  Perhaps 
the hot or at least warm booms, mast and tower explains one reason why the 
F/B is frequently ruined with stacked beams.  

I have a similar installation on 6M with 2 element vertically polarized beams 
spaced 1/2 wave and I didn't quite get what I thought I should compared to 
Eznec in where I didn't use connecting metal booms between the elements and 
boom between the beams and connecting mast and tower to ground.  I added 
metal booms (betwen the gamma matched elements) and mast and they were hot.  
Remember any resonant element connected to the center of the DE will absorb 
RF also.  It travels all directions.  I just added an insulated boom between 
the beams and will retest.  I will add toroids to the coax if the shield is 
connected to the center of the DE like on a gamma match.  Balanced feed is a 
better way to go.  If balanced coax is used, do not connect the shield to the 
boom.  You might try it and see if the SWR changes.

In Eznec booms are seldom added and all that connects to it.  There is no 
feedline as the "RF Source" is connected to the DE and there is no RF Spill 
Over on to a coax feedline as--there isn't any.  So always add the boom and 
all it's actual connections after the ideal free space tests.   The mast or 
tower section supporting the stacked beams have always been assumed to be 
"Immune to RF coupling" just because it's the opposite polarization--NOT SO.  
 Insulating elements from the boom stacked or not has shown to be in Eznec a 
good idea.  More on this later.  K7GCO.

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From VE6JY Don Moman" <ve6jy@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Wed Jul 25 04:11:59 2001
From: VE6JY Don Moman" <ve6jy@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (VE6JY Don Moman)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 04:11:59 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] 80m Yagis -- Too Tough to Tame?
References: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPCEDBCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c114b7$a4ac23c0$edcea1c6@ve6jy>


Just back from a hamfest long weekend and was interested to read all the
comments about 80m yagis and associated issues.  I have had a 4 element full
size yagi up here since Oct 1998.   It has not been without problems, but I
have never worried about it coming down.  The tower is large - 40" face -
and well up to supporting the yagi.

It went up the "old fashioned" way with gin pole and snatch block, playing
leap frog with the 2 sets of guy levels, before it reached home at 160 feet.
It was taken down 2 years later to replace a bent reflector and to revamp
the rotor system.  It was just down for a short time and then went back up
to 150 feet, an easier reach for the available crane.

I am very interested in hearing about other 80m yagis, especially full size,
and the problems they have run into.  I have asked before about such
designs, but with no replies. ON4UN's Low Band Dxing (2nd edition) shows
fewer examples (and none that appear to be currently in the air) than in his
first edition - that is not a good sign?

Some pictures at http://narc.net/ve6jy/   Please, all take turns (no
pileups!) looking at the pictures or the web provider (tnx to Mitch VE6JTM)
will experience a big blip in the usage stats and will know I've talked
about the web site on some reflector......

My two most significant "I know better now" slip ups were:

A: believing a large element could be designed using "static" stress
analysis.  Large, heavy elements can build up momentum and if a gust comes
along at just the wrong moment, i.e. to push an already heavily stressed
element, it may fail.  Mine only bent one side of the reflector inwards by
about 20 deg or more, about a year later it was bent perfectly straight
again.  In the next big wind it was bent again. I believe the material I had
on hand for this (failing) section was a softer aluminum, but even if it had
been the good stuff, it was still close to the edge.   Yet the other half of
the reflector (exact same material) survived 2 years.  They have all been
reinforced and now look quite comfortable in a wind.

 B: not worrying enough about wind balance.  Initially putting it up with
the gin pole, I had to worry about weight balance (even installed a large
chunk of heavy pipe on a trolley that ran along the inside of the boom -
allowing it to be balanced perfectly as it was adjustable from the center of
the yagi.  The other constraint was that I wanted to reach the DE from the
tower (remember this was in 1998 BC  - Before Crane)  This resulted in a
pretty unbalanced design, and even with some extra wind loading on the rear,
analysis (tnx VE6AQ) showed it may have a 7500 foot-lb unbalance in a 75 mph
wind.

The current project this summer/fall is to extend the mast another 140'
downwards so when the rotor breaks again, I can work at ground level.  After
I get that rotation matter tamed, I wonder what else will fail?

73 Don
VE6JY





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From K7GCO@aol.com  Wed Jul 25 19:40:51 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 14:40:51 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Side by Side, Elliptical polarized yagis for 6m?
Message-ID: <49.e6c9d9b.28906cb3@aol.com>


 In a message dated 7/19/01 2:21:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
ve9aa@nbnet.nb.ca writes: << 
  Hi Everyone,
  Mike VE9AA here.
  Brand spanking new to the list and I am going to fire off a question right
  off the bat.
  
  Has anyone tried side by side, each slanted 45 degrees, (tops pointing
  towards one another), fed IN-PHASE
  for elliptical polarization? (I don't want RHCP/LHCP)
  
  I am primarily a 6m DXer so local tropo, EME, etc. usually does not interest
  me much.
  
  I'm thinking of a pair of the K6STI long 5 elements spaced 5/8wl apart up @
  58' or so.
  
  Have 5 "other" 6m antennas here, so wanna try something "new".
  
  Mike VE9AA
  
  Michael, Coreen & Corey Smith
  (VE9AA,  VE9AAA & Baby)
  271 Smith Rd
  Waterville, NB
  E2V 3V6
  Canada
   >>
 Any polarization coming in that is different than you have, it can be 
effective as the angle of radiation is different if at the same height as the 
other antennas.  If I were to do this I'd model it in Eznec along with all 
the other antennas you have at the same height and see what the major angle 
of radiation is over real ground.  If it's different than the rest it can be 
of some value if you can switch between them on receive.  Are you sure the 
polarization is elliptical with your configuration?

On a blind call you are not sure what the optimum angle is on transmit 
without first making the contact and then running comparisons.  If it is at a 
different height than the rest it could have about the same angle(s) of 
radiation as the rest and be of little value.  Being of the same polarization 
(or mostly) as of what is coming in is always an advantage but it's not 
always constant as polarization shift occurs.  I have a beam with 6 
polarization's and switching between them eliminates about 75% of the QSB 
which is a significant advantage--all the time. 
 
 If both are at 45 degrees to a vertical masts there will be RF coupling to 
it, distortion to the pattern and degraded performance.  Quads have an 
advantage of bottom feed where the feedline is mostly out of the direct 
antenna field.  With a fiberglass mast you could get 45 degree polarization 
from corner feed and very little coupling to supporting metal members below.
 
 Horizontal yagis have very little coupling to a vertical tower.  I ran 
patterns with the simulated tower and mast and found horizontally polarized 
Quads with their bottom feed have more coupling to a tower than a yagi.  It 
can be reduced with an insulated coupling(s).  The 2 element tapered quad 
fiberglass elements had less RF absorption to the mast/tower than a 2 element 
with a 8' boom.   K7GCO    

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From k6sdw@arrl.net  Wed Jul 25 19:51:00 2001
From: k6sdw@arrl.net (Eddy Avila)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:51:00 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] RE: Source for antenna masts......
Message-ID: <F27hKPc99ir3wSimD3J00006dc5@hotmail.com>


Howdy,

I'm looking for a source for a 15' antenna mast to fit into my Ham M rotator 
and Force 12 C3e yagi

Thanks much! 73......./ed

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From w3svj@juno.com  Wed Jul 25 21:29:46 2001
From: w3svj@juno.com (w3svj@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 16:29:46 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 25G
Message-ID: <20010725.162949.-3961955.1.W3SVJ@juno.com>


How risky is it to hoist 60 feet of 25G from somewhere above the C of G?
The club (Steel City ARC, W3KWH) is trying to get the ATV repeater
receive antenna a bit higher above the tree line. The antenna represents
about 1.5 sq ft of windload.

The plan is to assemble it all on the ground and secure the top guys as
well as tie down the hardline. Of course the earth end of the guys would
secured and the tower plumbed when it is upright.

The concern is, will the tower buckle under its own weight before it can
be swung to the vertical?

I have the "Big Book" but I can't find anything regarding this type of
installation.

Does the "fold over" installation equate to what we would be doing as far
as stressing the tower near midpoint?



73 de Nate, W3SVJ, in Pittsburgh where it's not so smokey anymore.

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From mfarrer@tality.com  Wed Jul 25 21:56:44 2001
From: mfarrer@tality.com (Mel Farrer)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 13:56:44 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Adjustable Phase Shift networks
Message-ID: <97A30A2BBA23D411842900D0B726125D6165BD@srvex03-sanjose.Cadence.COM>


When building a multi element array, I have had to put in odd phase shifts
to properly achieve the pattern I wanted.  Using different lengths of feed
line works, but is obviously difficult to adjust.  Anyone have a good
reference for designing adjustable feedline phase shift networks?  I vaguely
remember an article (many moons ago) on doing so, but could not drag it out.
Thanks.

Mel Farrer
Director of Engineering
Tality Corporation
555 River Oaks Parkway
San Jose, CA  95134
408 456-8254
408 944-8000 FAX
mfarrer@tality.com


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From shr@ricc.net  Wed Jul 25 23:04:16 2001
From: shr@ricc.net (W0UN--Signal Hill Ranch)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 16:04:16 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Adjustable Phase Shift networks
In-Reply-To: <97A30A2BBA23D411842900D0B726125D6165BD@srvex03-sanjose.Cad
 ence.COM>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.20010725155543.00cbbe00@mail.ricc.net>


At 02:56 PM 2001-07-25, you wrote:

>When building a multi element array, I have had to put in odd phase shifts
>to properly achieve the pattern I wanted.  Using different lengths of feed
>line works, but is obviously difficult to adjust.  Anyone have a good
>reference for designing adjustable feedline phase shift networks?  I vaguely
>remember an article (many moons ago) on doing so, but could not drag it out.
>Thanks.
>
>Mel Farrer
>Director of Engineering
>Tality Corporation
>555 River Oaks Parkway
>San Jose, CA  95134
>408 456-8254
>408 944-8000 FAX
>mfarrer@tality.com


Mel, one way to do what you want is to build a 90 degree hybrid
coupler.  Terminate two of the ports with a parallel resonant circuit
and use the other two as in and out.  By selecting the proper
values of L/C you can get 0-180 degrees phase shift at a constant
impedance.  With the right choices you can get (almost)
0-180 degrees with a ganged variable cap, keeping the L fixed.

If you need 360 degrees you can either add a 180 degree line
(or phase reversing toroidal transformer) that is switched in
and out depending on what quadrant you want.  Or you can
cascade two of the hybrid networks and gang their variable
caps to get 0-360 degrees.

Some have done this with relay switched binary lengths of
coax.  Enough relays can give you some impedance bumps unless
you are pretty careful.

Think this might have been address in an old issue in Ham Radio
magazine--at least in passing.  And may be casually mentioned
in the old Unitrode PIN diode handbook.  But I don't have any
references at hand and I don't want to do ALL of the work for
you! ;-)

John  W0UN


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From n4zr@contesting.com  Wed Jul 25 22:55:11 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 17:55:11 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] coax as capacitor
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010725175511.00975100@mail.abs.adelphia.net>


Is it feasible to use coaxial cable as the series capacitor in a shunt feed
system, simply pruning the length of cable as appropriate?  Or is there
some reason why not?

73, Pete N4ZR






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From shr@ricc.net  Wed Jul 25 23:38:08 2001
From: shr@ricc.net (W0UN--Signal Hill Ranch)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 16:38:08 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Come-alongs and Load Straps
Message-ID: <4.3.2.20010725162311.00cb3510@mail.ricc.net>


Come-alongs have been discussed here before and the
cheapest ones may be worth even less than what they
cost.

The best deal on a high quality unit that is more than
adequate for most ham applications is a unit that
is available at Sam's Club.  It is rated at 2 TONS and
has a dual ratchet casting (forged?  probably not).
It is pretty heavy duty compared to most you will see
at home improvement stores and the only thing that
you can find that is better are the $200 chain-drive
ones used by the utility companies.  The ones at
Sams have an extra hook and pulley so you can double
the cable over for twice the lift.

Price is only $18 and I think I have bought 6 or 8 over
the past year.  You can never have enough good
come-alongs.  They were still at the local Sam's Club last
night so should be stocked around the country.

Another thing of interest are the nylon load straps.  These
are the wide ones rated at 10,000 pound test.  Great for
hauling lots of tower and I just used four to secure
a 1977 T-Bird to my big trailer to haul it 700 miles.

The ones at Sam's Club are 27 ft long and identical ones
(but only 25 ft long) were $28 at an auto supply store and
the ones at Sam's are only $12.  Shows you something about
markups.

Just leave some for me--I am sure I will want to buy more!

John  W0UN




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From shr@ricc.net  Wed Jul 25 23:38:26 2001
From: shr@ricc.net (W0UN--Signal Hill Ranch)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 16:38:26 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] coax as capacitor
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010725175511.00975100@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.20010725161613.00b858c0@mail.ricc.net>


At 03:55 PM 2001-07-25, you wrote:

>Is it feasible to use coaxial cable as the series capacitor in a shunt feed
>system, simply pruning the length of cable as appropriate?  Or is there
>some reason why not?
>
>73, Pete N4ZR

Pete--

Yes, it can.  Coax has been used by many for gamma match
caps--including Cushcraft.  I even published an article about it
around 35 years ago.

Only problem is that it is not a pure capacitance so if the
length of cable needed starts to approach a significant
fraction of a 1/4 wave then the inductive component
reduces the capacitive reactance--meaning it takes more
cable than what is calculated by just using the cap/ft
figure for the cable.  Most low impedance matches (Yagis,
etc) don't require much C so this is pretty easy way to go.

I like to do the initial match with a receive variable capacitor
and get the match set by tweaking the gamma rod length
and cap value.

Then fix the rod and replace the RX variable with the coax and
trim to length.  Best (cheapest) tool to trim RG-213 is the
Radio Shack cable cutter.  Less than $10 and cuts coax cable
easily and pretty cleanly.

Good luck--John  W0UN


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From richmondp@home.com  Wed Jul 25 23:31:53 2001
From: richmondp@home.com (RichmondP)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:31:53 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rhon gyn pole
Message-ID: <010001c11559$9bb09c40$4e2eb518@speast1.tn.home.com>


Hello,

I the pieces to a  Rhon gyn pole buy I need to purchase the mast.  What is
the correct O.D. and wall thickness for this mast and is it T6061-T6?  Where
can I get the best price for this replacement?

Thanks for the information.

73

Patrick, W4PV


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From antipode@ne.mediaone.net  Thu Jul 26 02:58:30 2001
From: antipode@ne.mediaone.net (antipode)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:58:30 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Come-alongs and Load Straps
References: <4.3.2.20010725162311.00cb3510@mail.ricc.net>
Message-ID: <3B5F7946.B11DB2C8@ne.mediaone.net>


Unless those things are made in the USA I wouldn't trust them.  The only
exception MIGHT be if they're made by an established
well-known-in-the-trade US company in one of their factories overseas
(China, Taiwan, etc.).  Otherwise I'd stay clear of any tool made in
another country, the Far East especially, as they just don't have the
materials' quality controls in place and A) won't last, B) they're
dangerous!  Nothing like having a guy cable suddenly snap under tension
(or worse) because the nylon web strap was of inferior material quality
or the ratchet suddenly fails because of poor quality steel.

You get the idea.

Bill Sievers
W5IQJ






W0UN--Signal Hill Ranch wrote:
> 
> Come-alongs have been discussed here before and the
> cheapest ones may be worth even less than what they
> cost.
> 
> The best deal on a high quality unit that is more than
> adequate for most ham applications is a unit that
> is available at Sam's Club.  It is rated at 2 TONS and
> has a dual ratchet casting (forged?  probably not).
> It is pretty heavy duty compared to most you will see
> at home improvement stores and the only thing that
> you can find that is better are the $200 chain-drive
> ones used by the utility companies.  The ones at
> Sams have an extra hook and pulley so you can double
> the cable over for twice the lift.
> 
> Price is only $18 and I think I have bought 6 or 8 over
> the past year.  You can never have enough good
> come-alongs.  They were still at the local Sam's Club last
> night so should be stocked around the country.
> 
> Another thing of interest are the nylon load straps.  These
> are the wide ones rated at 10,000 pound test.  Great for
> hauling lots of tower and I just used four to secure
> a 1977 T-Bird to my big trailer to haul it 700 miles.
> 
> The ones at Sam's Club are 27 ft long and identical ones
> (but only 25 ft long) were $28 at an auto supply store and
> the ones at Sam's are only $12.  Shows you something about
> markups.
> 
> Just leave some for me--I am sure I will want to buy more!
> 
> John  W0UN
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
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From w7ti@dslextreme.com  Thu Jul 26 00:48:39 2001
From: w7ti@dslextreme.com (Bill Turner)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 16:48:39 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Come-alongs and Load Straps
In-Reply-To: <3B5F7946.B11DB2C8@ne.mediaone.net>
References: <4.3.2.20010725162311.00cb3510@mail.ricc.net> <3B5F7946.B11DB2C8@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <ntlult8rr1hiq19e8p0v2g3vcqa8kbiv3i@4ax.com>


On Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:58:30 -0700, antipode wrote:

>Nothing like having a guy cable suddenly snap under tension
>(or worse) because the nylon web strap was of inferior material quality
>or the ratchet suddenly fails because of poor quality steel.

_________________________________________________________

Nylon is especially dangerous when used under a lot of tension,
as any sailor can tell you.  It is very stretchy compared to some
other rope materials like dacron, for instance.  As it is
tensioned, it stores energy like a rubber band and if it
breaks... watch out!  For really high loads, chain or wire rope
is much safer.

Bill, W7TI

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From W8JI@contesting.com  Thu Jul 26 00:50:00 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:50:00 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Adjustable Phase Shift networks
In-Reply-To: <97A30A2BBA23D411842900D0B726125D6165BD@srvex03-sanjose.Cadence.COM>
Message-ID: <200107252354.f6PNsIZ00860@paris.akorn.net>


Hi Mel,

> When building a multi element array, I have had to put in odd phase shifts
> to properly achieve the pattern I wanted.  Using different lengths of feed
> line works, but is obviously difficult to adjust.  Anyone have a good

There are a dozen solutions, but remember these rules. If you use 
transmission lines:

A *mismatched* feedline only shifts phase the amount of the length 
when the line is an exact electrical multiple of 90 degrees. 

Be sure your feedlines are matched or you know the phase shift 
with the mismatch. If the line is mismatched and is not a multiple 
of 90 degrees, the phase shift is not equal to the line length in 
degrees!  

Maximum error is when the line is an odd-multiple of 45 degrees, 
and of course with the highest mismatch and longest lines. 

For example, a 135-degree long RG-8 line teminated in a 1.5:1 
resistive mismatch shifts phase 146 degrees. 

If you use a hybrid:

A hybrid only shifts phase the design amount when every port is 
perfectly matched and only at the design frequency.

and:
There is no passive device available that splits power evenly into 
different load impedances. 

There is no minimum-loss continuously variable phase system that 
does not shift amplitude ratios when the lines are mismatched. 

> reference for designing adjustable feedline phase shift networks?  I
> vaguely remember an article (many moons ago) on doing so, but could not
> drag it out. Thanks.

You can use conventional T networks to vary phase and power 
division, or design the entire system.

You can use a BCD switched line (like a BCD switched set of lines 
in series 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 degrees long will give you every two 
degrees from zero to 62 degrees) to vary phase but you will have 
no control over power division and the phase will only be correct if 
the lines are matched. This is the system I use.

There is software that calculates phase shift of networks and 
transmission lines with various loads. KM5KG Grant Bingeman 
wrote some. I don't know if there is any freeware.



73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From rmcash@home.com  Thu Jul 26 03:30:13 2001
From: rmcash@home.com (Richard M. Cash)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:30:13 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Yaesu Rotor Calibration
References: <3.0.6.32.20010711150958.009dc530@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <000e01c1157a$e668b620$8b8b0b41@sptnbrg1.sc.home.com>


I have a 800SDX and am trying to calibrate it. How do you adjust the pot
inside the rotor so that the indicator on the control unit will track
properly? I have taken the rotor apart for cleaning and lubrication prior to
installing on the tower.
Thanks
Richard
W4UGM


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From shr@ricc.net  Thu Jul 26 04:07:37 2001
From: shr@ricc.net (W0UN--Signal Hill Ranch)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:07:37 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Come-alongs and Load Straps--yet again
Message-ID: <4.3.2.20010725184834.00cb3100@mail.ricc.net>


COME-ALONGS

All of the precautions stated by others are of course
important issues.  But I own about 50 come-alongs
many of which claim to be made in the USA.  The ones
I mentioned that are available at Sam's are of significantly
superior quality than any of the other inexpensive
ones that are commonly available and are certainly
adequate for typical amateur use.  But they are made in
Taiwan for a US company.   I have done a lot of
antenna and tower work in Taiwan and I've seen a lot of
junk tools--but these are a pretty good price/quality tradeoff.

In fact, I have done commercial tower work from the arctic
to the tropics for every level of government entity as well
as many companies, universities, and foreign governments.
I certainly would trust these for towers of Rohn 65 or less to
200 ft.  On the occasions when I have done heavier towers
to heights in excess of 300 ft I have used chain drive tensioners
because they were available.


LOAD STRAPS

For a while I thought that the comments arose because of a
misunderstanding of the application.  And that it was thought
that I was guying a tower with this stuff.  This is just the flat
strapping for securing a load to a trailer.  The type of thing used by
many truckers for heavy loads.  Not sure what the yellow webbing is--
nylon or dacron or what--it doesn't say--only that the things are
assembled in the USA and the strapping is made in the USA and that
the tie downs meet DOT, CHP, CFR, and CCR regs.  The steel
parts are made in Taiwan.

This stuff is rated at 10,000 lbs tensile and 3,300 lbs working
and is certainly adequate for hauling home a load of Rohn 45.
As usual, YMMV and caveat emptor.  But based on my
professional experience both the come-alongs and the tie
downs are a "best buy" for typical light duty ham applications.
I have heavier winches and equipment for the really big stuff.
(No wenches in my tool box.)

Actually the only time I have had any "excitement" while
doing a tower was when a US-made Klein grip ("porkchop")
slipped  (twice).  First time I thought it was a fluke and the
second time it got retired to the landfill.  Yes, it was the correct
groove for 1x7 EHS, but had been used a lot before I got it.
I immediately went out and purchased four new, HD ones.

Actually the story is interesting in that it does give some
measure of the strength of Rohn 55.  I had put up the
first 40 ft of one of my 200 ft Rohn 55s and was putting
on the first set of Phillystran guys.  This was the 5/16"
equivalent (11,000 lb tensile) and I had them tensioned
to about 1500 pounds (Philly says you can tension to
15% initially and with stretch they will relax to the typical
10%.  When one of the Klein grips popped off the steel
section of the guy wire.  The tower "sproinged" in the
direction of the other two guys that were at 1500 pounds.
Of course it overshot and rebounded, repeating this
oscillation a few times.

The tower was in extremely sandy soil that had been well
compacted.  The concrete base was 3x3x4 ft 7-1/2 sack mix.
When I checked the base there was about 2 to 3  inches of
clearance around the entire base (all four sides).  Careful
inspection revealed no bends or compromised welds--
demonstrating that the tower handled the 2-direction
static pull from the remaining guys as well as the dynamics
of flopping around a lot.  Pretty impressive stuff.  And
not even any little cracks on the surface of the concrete
where the legs entered.  Guess that is why I use 7-1/2
sack mix!  Of course if I had been ON he tower when it
happened I would have been catapulted into the next
county or slapped silly or worse by the tower.  (What do
they call those little paddles with a ball attached by a long
rubber band?  Get the picture??)

One other short story along these lines that will provide
some insight into what these towers can actually handle.
But "don't try this at home!"  I had installed the last sections
of another of my 200 ft Rohn 55 towers but only had guys
up to the 160 ft level.  The project got stalled for some
period of time so the tower had 40 ft of unguyed sections
above the last guy point.  Same Phillystran guys at 1100
pounds (after they had relaxed and been tested with my
series dynamometer).  The neighbor's property is about
1,000 acres and has a gas well near my property line
and one of the gas well workers used to shoot at things
with a high-powered hunting rifle.

I had a golden eagle that perched on my towers quite often
and one of the guy wires was shot and severed at the
160 ft level.  Right at the top end where the eagle often
perched.  So the other two guys were pulling the tower to the
side (seemed reminiscent of the St. Louis arch--but probably
wasn't quite as bad).  So the last functioning set of guys
was at the 120 ft level.  There was a LOT of unanswered tension
at the 160 ft level, and there was another 40 ft of tower above
that.  I am sure that when the guy wire was shot there was a
pretty rapid acceleration of the entire structure above 120 ft
and yet there was no sign of any broken welds or other damage.

The gas well worker was never seen again--pretty much
suggesting that he was the perpetrator.  I sure wouldn't
think that Rohn 45 would have survived this abuse but the
Rohn 55 did and has been solid for the ten years since
this happened.  It now supports a 4-stack of 8 element
10M beams (48 ft 3" x 0.125" wall booms.)

This does teach one to be very careful--but none of
these problems were caused by a cheap come-along or
a bad strap.

BTW  For light tower work I use Samson stable-braid
woven dacron ropes of 3/8 inch diameter.  For the
big stuff I use the 1/2 diameter version of the same
thing (the kind of jobs where you use 30-40 ft of
Rohn 25 for the gin pole).

Sometimes things can be TOO heavy duty.  Which is
why I prefer to use my John Deere Gator to put up
towers.  It has the horse power to haul up Rohn 55
but not enough horse power to damage anything if
something gets hung up.  And I prefer the Dacron ropes
over the steel cables.  They have enough give to allow
you to fudge just a bit if need be.  Typically the next Rohn
section is not quite low enough to sit down on the previous
one.  Dacron has enough give so that I can get it to set
properly without having anything lowered by someone
on the ground.  Important when I am doing both ends of
the job.  I put up my 160M 4-square with no ground support,
climbing up and down the towers repeatedly for each section
of Rohn 25.  I certainly don't recommend working alone
but on occasion it has been necessary.

--John  W0UN


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From n4kg@juno.com  Thu Jul 26 05:08:12 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:08:12 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] coax as capacitor
Message-ID: <20010725.220848.-103609.0.N4KG@juno.com>


I've been doing this for decades on my Omega matched
rotary dipoles for 30 and 40M using TH6 and 3L20M booms.
I like to cut off 1/2 inch of jacket and braid at the end, then
tape, to prevent arc over.  For longer pieces, I coil them up,
but be sure to physically attach them to the same tubing the
braid is connected to since the breakdown voltage of the jacket
is MUCH less than the breakdown voltage of the dielectric.

Note that 50 ohm cables have roughly 29 to 30 pF per foot
and 75 ohm cables are around 20+ pF (I hope I remember that right).
Also, remember that solid dielectric cables have much higher (~3X)
breakdown voltage than foam cables.

Tom  N4KG

On Wed, 25 Jul 2001  Pete Smith <n4zr@contesting.com> writes:
> 
> Is it feasible to use coaxial cable as the series capacitor in a 
> shunt feed
> system, simply pruning the length of cable as appropriate?  Or is 
> there
> some reason why not?
> 
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> - up to
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> 
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From w7ti@dslextreme.com  Thu Jul 26 04:41:09 2001
From: w7ti@dslextreme.com (Bill Turner)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 20:41:09 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Come-alongs and Load Straps--yet again
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20010725184834.00cb3100@mail.ricc.net>
References: <4.3.2.20010725184834.00cb3100@mail.ricc.net>
Message-ID: <j94vlt8eo52fe6svr6bc4qbngp9eh00smo@4ax.com>


On Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:07:37 -0600, W0UN--Signal Hill Ranch wrote:

>Of course if I had been ON he tower when it
>happened I would have been catapulted into the next
>county or slapped silly or worse by the tower.  (What do
>they call those little paddles with a ball attached by a long
>rubber band?  Get the picture??)

_________________________________________________________

Not funny of course, but I DID have to laugh.  :-)

73, Bill W7TI

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Thu Jul 26 06:11:23 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 01:11:23 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] RE: Source for antenna masts......
Message-ID: <8c.9f7878c.2891007b@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/25/01 12:04:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
k6sdw@hotmail.com writes:

> I'm looking for a source for a 15' antenna mast to fit into my Ham M 
rotator 
>  and Force 12 C3e yagi

    As always: what's your county windspeed rating and how far above the top 
of the tower will the antenna be?

    For an 80 MPH and below and the antenna is within one-foot of the top of 
the tower, go to Home Depot or anyplace that's got 1.5" waterpipe or conduit. 
That's FB for this application.

    For 80 MPH and above and the antenna will be 10' or more up the mast, 
then you probably need a real carbon steel tubing mast. 

Cheers,   Steve     K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Thu Jul 26 06:23:12 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 01:23:12 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] 25G
Message-ID: <91.de5fc11.28910340@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/25/01 1:33:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, w3svj@juno.com 
writes:

> How risky is it to hoist 60 feet of 25G from somewhere above the C of G?
>  The club (Steel City ARC, W3KWH) is trying to get the ATV repeater
>  receive antenna a bit higher above the tree line. The antenna represents
>  about 1.5 sq ft of windload.
>  
>  The plan is to assemble it all on the ground and secure the top guys as
>  well as tie down the hardline. Of course the earth end of the guys would
>  secured and the tower plumbed when it is upright.
>  
>  The concern is, will the tower buckle under its own weight before it can
>  be swung to the vertical?

    Why couldn't you do it in two lifts? You're going to have two sets of 
guys anyway.

    The problem with lifting it just above the CG is that the tower will not 
be hanging vertically so that it will easily slide onto the base section. 
You'd have to pick it from directly above so that it would hang vertically in 
order to get the crane lift to work. 

    As for bending by picking it up more or less in the middle, I don't have 
any direct experience with it but it'd *probably* be okay. Try it and let us 
know what happens. (Just kidding. The advice is worth what you're paying for 
it - hi.)

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Thu Jul 26 06:31:04 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 01:31:04 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rhon gyn pole (Rohn ginpole)
Message-ID: <3c.eefeb10.28910518@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/25/01 3:35:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
richmondp@home.com writes:

> I the pieces to a  Rhon gyn pole buy I need to purchase the mast.  What is
>  the correct O.D. and wall thickness for this mast and is it T6061-T6?  
Where
>  can I get the best price for this replacement?
>  
    It's a 2-inch OD. It's 6061-T6. The Rohn version isn't very thick - 
probably an 1/8th of an inch. It's 12-feet long. 

    Look in the yellow pages under tubing suppliers and do some "smiling and 
dialing". I bought a 15' hunk of 1/4" wall several years ago for about 
seventy-five bucks. 

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC

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From w5sl@swbell.net  Thu Jul 26 06:36:10 2001
From: w5sl@swbell.net (Jay Sewell)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 05:36:10 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] 25G
References: <20010725.162949.-3961955.1.W3SVJ@juno.com>
Message-ID: <020101c11594$ff3522a0$139ebed0@deenjay>



----- Original Message -----
From: <w3svj@juno.com>
Subject: [TowerTalk] 25G


>
> How risky is it to hoist 60 feet of 25G from somewhere above the C of G?
> The club (Steel City ARC, W3KWH) is trying to get the ATV repeater
> receive antenna a bit higher above the tree line. The antenna represents
> about 1.5 sq ft of windload.
>
> The plan is to assemble it all on the ground and secure the top guys as
> well as tie down the hardline. Of course the earth end of the guys would
> secured and the tower plumbed when it is upright.
>
> The concern is, will the tower buckle under its own weight before it can
> be swung to the vertical?

Nate:

I installed a 70 foot 25G tower several years ago much as you describe.  I
marked the bottom of one tower leg and the corresponding stub with tape so
the tower would be oriented correctly with different lengths of guy
connected.  All guys were pre constructed and turnbuckles ready to be put in
place, etc.  We used a "cherry picker" crane from a local sign company
attaching to the tower about 15 ft above the Center of Gravity.  Short tag
lines of steel cable were attached to the bottom of the tower to have
control of the tower.  This type of crane allows the operator in the bucket
at the top to move the crane for correct alignment for placement.  Once
placed on the stubs, the crane maintained control until the bolts were
placed and the lower guys could be connected and reasonably tensioned.
After the crane was gone, the upper three guys were attached and the lower
and upper guys were all were adjusted for proper tension, etc.  No sign of
tendency to buckle of the tower was noted.

I don't think I would want to attempt this with a very large antenna on the
tower, but your antenna seems small enough.   Incidently, as you know, Rohn
used to make a tilt over tower which tilted near the middle of the tower,
and the stresses on the upper part of the tower as it tilted over should
have bedn similar to the stresses of attaching a crane at the center.   Also
when the tower was tilted, often a fairly heavy yagi or such was on the top
of the tower which should put much more stress on the tower than the antenna
you are planning to use.  Rarely, the tilt over mechanism would try to break
from stresses as the towers aged, but the tower itself seemed to be plenty
strong.

We did pick a windless day....Good Luck.

73,  Jay, W5SL, Austin, Texas



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From n7us@arrl.net  Thu Jul 26 06:40:28 2001
From: n7us@arrl.net (Jim McDonald)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:40:28 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: US Towers 472 coax question
References: <35.1831c463.288e5a44@aol.com>
Message-ID: <013001c11595$7b10e620$f00add18@phoenix.speedchoice.com>


I've taped them in the past, but they look lousy when the tower isn't all
the way up, as all of the cable is still up in the air.  (I frequently have
my tower lower to sleep better during frequent winds where I live in
Arizona, near some mountains.)

This time, on my 89' US Tower, I let them hang as Steve says, but I was
worried about all of the weight hanging at a sharp right angle from the top
stand-off.  I taped the cables (2 coax, 1 rotor, and 1 remote switch) to the
top stand-off with both the thick pipe wrapping tape from Home Depot and 3M
33+ (didn't have 88).  I then used an electrical PVC (the gray stiff) PVC
"sweep" piece.  That's the gradual bend type; I used a 90 degree bend.  I
forget the size (1.5"??) that went through the UST coax stand-off and taped
it in place with lots of the thick tape.  This way the coax doesn't get
deformed, I hope, from the weight and Arizona temperatures.

BTW, I've found the adhesive on the thick tape doesn't last well, so I
usually wrap it with 33+.

Jim N7US


----- Original Message -----
From: <K7LXC@aol.com>
To: <jfarber@sprynet.com>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Re: US Towers 472 coax question



In a message dated 7/23/01 1:23:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jfarber@sprynet.com writes:

> I just got my US Towers 472 MDP tower up, with a 31 L Tennadye log for
>  50-1300 at the top and a KLM 6M7LB yagi below it. I am trying to figure
the
>  distance between coax arms that the coax should be taped to. I can't seem
to
>  locate that spec in the US towers material. In other words, when the
tower
>  is fully extended, what is the distance between consecutive coax arms?

    Actually I prefer to secure them at the top coax arm and then let them
run thru the others without being secured. It's very time consuming to tape
the cables, run the tower up and see if it's right (it'll always be too long
or too short), run it down, make an adjustment, repeat many times.

    When the tower is lowered, the cables just lay on the ground until you
raise it.

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech

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From K7GCO@aol.com  Thu Jul 26 06:42:26 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 01:42:26 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Open ladder line question
Message-ID: <83.d810307.289107c2@aol.com>


 In a message dated 7/24/01 10:49:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
Bgsalesmel@cs.com writes:
  
  Hello,
  Name is Mel, KD7DCR, here and I am new to this ham radio gig. I am just 
getting my first station set up, tower up, etc. this summer. 
  
  You seem to "flat know" your stuff about ladder line applications and I 
have a basic question: i.e., How do you install your 123' or 135' of line 
when the center connector is only +/- 45 ft from your operating 
position/single point entry? This is a dipole design from CQ mag of about 3 
or 4 years ago and in it they suggested using 66' to 125' of 450 ohm line. It 
is about 140ft long made out of house grade Romex, center at 70ft naturally, 
with the 3-cond "dasiy chained" for an effective length of +/- 210ft per 
side. I personally think this will "look" like a 3/8" OD single conductor due 
to induction - but, who knows: If it plays well and works for me here, I 
don't care if it thinks it is 10ft long! Tuner will be a MFJ-949E that 
accepts and switches 450 ohm line directly.
  
  I can only put up a 40ft tower here to start - will fight the permit battle 
when I can afford a self-supporting one in about 2 years. In the mean time, 
make do with what I can afford and do now. Dipole will hang off of this tower 
at the 32 to 34ft level, with a Unistrut/pulley assembly, and the other end 
will be at about 22ft on a pole in my garden. Side lobe will be centered at 
about 020 deg (true - not mag) by 200 deg.
  
  I have an XYL that objects to "wires hanging all over the place", etc. and 
need to keep this "looking" very sanitary. I have a blank wall of the house, 
about 9ft tall x 14ft long, T-111 wood siding, right beside my entry to the 
basement operating position. This is behind a green bush right now, it would 
be in the open during winter months.
  
  Is there any way to "loop" or "zig-zag" this excess ladder line on this 
wall before going down into the shack? The eve has a metal rain gutter, 
everything else is wood. Will be using one of the Wireman's QST grounding 
spark plug devices before heading into the shack, and a knife switch inside 
as well. I intend to disconnect from all ant and power when not working. 
  
  Top ant on the tower is Force12 C-4.
  
  Thanks if you can shed some light on my question.
  
  Regards & 73's,
  Mel Frost
  Coeur d'Alene, ID >>
  
Mel: Looping and zig zagging is about the only way to use up the excessive 
open wire length or live with the higher reactive loads of short  length 
feedlines if the tuner will match them.  If you can get 1:1 SWR on the coax 
to the rig and no arcing or warming of the tuner, you have maximum transfer 
of energy into the input of the feedline and into the antenna minus the loss 
in the feedline what ever it is.  Matching at the input of the feedline is 
the most important match.  
 
 I'm going to make a "Ferris Wheel Spiro" to use up excesive length.  The 
spacing will be about 2' between the line.  Right angle bends are not 
recommended.  I'll grid dip it before and after.  The Ferris Wheel can be on 
a post or on the side of the house.
 
 I have in the past had a 2 ganged 2 pole switchs so I could swtich in 
certain lengths of open wire line so as to obtain a Hi-Z or a  Lo-Z for the 
tuner.  This is practical for the higher frequencies.  You don't always need 
a tuner with typical Lo-Z's around 50 ohms reflected to the end of a 1/2 wave 
multiple feedline.  I have found you can feed and open wire line directly 
into the unbalanced 50 ohm output of a rig or in my case a coax switch 
without RF in the shack.  I add a series BC 3 gang variable in the grounded 
or shield lead.  Connect the rotor to the shield or ground connection.  
Resonate a dipole or vertical antenna low in the band and using a feedline 
that is a 1/2 wave multiple, you can often obtain a low SWR and/or resistive 
load easy over the whole band to match by even the 50 ohm rigs in many cases. 
 
 
 In the "Old Days" of "Link Coupling," one could have a balanced or 
unbalanced output with a series variable to obtain a resistive load to the 
final even with SWR.  Band edge operation was not a problem it is now with 50 
ohm output finals.  With a resistive load one could swing the link in an out 
for any power level desired without having to redip the final.  With the 
right number of turns in the link one could reflect the optimum load to the 
final for max output for loads of 30 to 1000 ohms also--no tuner.  You just 
had the inconvenience of changing tank coils.  So all Art Collins did for you 
with the band switching Pi is to eliminate plug in coils, lower the Z 
matching range and allow only an unbalanced load.  You could match higher 
SWR's on coax but at a lower final efficiency.  I have built a blanced Pi 
output final for push-pull tubes and it's great for open wire line of Hi/Lo-Z 
loads.  I still have my old Pr-813's final and will perhaps just add 2 more 
813's.
 
 With open wire line you don't have to worry about your feedline losses going 
up in time and feedline damage is easily seen and repaired.   It is not with 
coax.  I also still have and open wire line I made in the 30's.  That's great 
feedline economy.    k7gco
 

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From ChrisB@prism.co.za  Thu Jul 26 08:22:30 2001
From: ChrisB@prism.co.za (Chris Burger)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:22:30 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Coax caps
Message-ID: <C84D1E1984CBD411BCEF00D0B7A7D5C90155BF58@EXCHANGE>


N4ZR asked:
>Is it feasible to use coaxial cable as the series capacitor in a shunt feed
>system, simply pruning the length of cable as appropriate?  Or is there
>some reason why not?

No problem, within the voltage rating of the coax.  

Just don't cut the end off bluntly.  Strip the braid back by perhaps 20 mm
(or 3/4" if you insist), and sleeve it with heat shrink sleeve.  If you
simply cut the end, it will arc over when you run power.  Also, you may want
to keep the "cap" away from tower legs etc.; the jacket's breakdown voltage
is not the greatest.

I used such caps in a shunt fed tower for a few years.  The only problems
were related to charring when touching the tower, and to the end charring
because of arcing.

Chris R. Burger
ZS6EZ


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From W8JI@contesting.com  Thu Jul 26 08:22:32 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 03:22:32 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] coax as capacitor
In-Reply-To: <20010725.220848.-103609.0.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <200107260726.f6Q7QnZ08815@paris.akorn.net>


> On Wed, 25 Jul 2001  Pete Smith <n4zr@contesting.com> writes:
> 
  Is it feasible to use coaxial cable as the series capacitor in a 
> shunt feed
> system, simply pruning the length of cable as appropriate?  Or is 
> there
> some reason why not?
> 
> 73, Pete N4ZR

Assuming a cable no more than 1/4 wl long:

The cable always looks like more capacitance than it measures at 
dc Pete, because any *series* inductance decreases capacitive 
reactance (same as increasing capacitance).

This effect is minimum with electrically short cables and peaks at 
1/4 wl where reactance is zero (effective capacitance becomes 
infinite), so a cable always looks more capacitive than the dc 
calculation. Fortunately the error is in a direction that let's you trim.

Voltage is always HIGHER at the open end than at the connection 
end, again that amount varies with length and peaks at 1/4 wl. This 
effect can be dramatic as you approach 1/4 wl. That's why gamma 
capacitors on yagi's seem to arc and fail at lower than expected 
power.

Q decreases and loss increases as you approach 1/4 wl, and Q 
can be much lower than conventional well-designed lumped 
components produce. That is because the line operates with a near-
infinite SWR.  This is why you can't use a coaxial capacitor in a 
high-efficiency small loop antenna, and why a high-Q capacitor has 
to be "boxy shaped" with multiple plates. (Multilayer ceramic chips 
have Q's in the ten's of thousands while single layer ceramics have 
Q's in the hundreds.) Coaxial stubs can have Q's in the 20-50 
range when used as capacitors.

These effects may or may not be important depending on the 
application, but they are very very real.







Voltage at the open end also increases over the voltage you might 
normally expect. 
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 


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From i4jmy@iol.it  Thu Jul 26 10:32:37 2001
From: i4jmy@iol.it (i4jmy@iol.it)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:32:37 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] coax as capacitor
Message-ID: <GH2QID$I2qgJe_lv8SFFXZq50IMnCQsxpyohPjMEhy8p@iol.it>



> > On Wed, 25 Jul 2001  Pete Smith <n4zr@contesting.com> writes:
> > 
>   Is it feasible to use coaxial cable as the series capacitor in a 
> > shunt feed
> > system, simply pruning the length of cable as appropriate?  Or is 
> > there
> > some reason why not?
> > 
> > 73, Pete N4ZR
> 
> 
> Voltage is always HIGHER at the open end than at the connection 
> end, again that amount varies with length and peaks at 1/4 wl. This 
> effect can be dramatic as you approach 1/4 wl. That's why gamma 
> capacitors on yagi's seem to arc and fail at lower than expected 
> power.

This effect is even more evident in verticals, I mean in shunt fed 
verticals and expecially in those (short) ones loaded with a capacitive 
hat and using an omega.
 
> Q decreases and loss increases as you approach 1/4 wl, and Q 
> can be much lower than conventional well-designed lumped 
> components produce. That is because the line operates with a near-
> infinite SWR.  This is why you can't use a coaxial capacitor in a 
> high-efficiency small loop antenna, and why a high-Q capacitor has 
> to be "boxy shaped" with multiple plates. (Multilayer ceramic chips 
> have Q's in the ten's of thousands while single layer ceramics have 
> Q's in the hundreds.) Coaxial stubs can have Q's in the 20-50 
> range when used as capacitors.

As well as for the small loops, this is also valid with all the other 
antennas with high Q (small BW) and overall efficiency may get 
substantially compromised.


73,
Mauri I4JMY

> 
> Voltage at the open end also increases over the voltage you might 
> normally expect. 
> 73, Tom W8JI
> W8JI@contesting.com 
> 




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From DGB" <dgbcms@netnet.net  Thu Jul 26 11:16:13 2001
From: DGB" <dgbcms@netnet.net (DGB)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 05:16:13 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Open ladder line question
References: <83.d810307.289107c2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <013801c115bc$045b1ec0$746528ce@DAV.NET>


I have a similar setup with 92 ft. of 450 ohm ladder line
with my shack in the garage.

What I did was cut off several segments of 4" dia. pvc about
2" long. Then I epoxied inside and across the dia. at one
end of the tubing,  a 1/4 thick x 1w" piece of
non-conductor. In the center of that flat I drilled a hole
for a galvanized drywall screw that allows me to screw them
to the side of the building. I put a row of them up near the
top of the wall, staying about 8" away from the aluminum
eve, and another row about a foot from the ground. I looped
or zig-zagged the surplus length of ladder line up and down
around these and fasten the ladder-line to them with plastic
ties.

It works great and have notice no interaction with the
electrical wiring that runs thru the wall.

73 Dwight W9YQ
----- Original Message -----
From: <K7GCO@aol.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>; <Bgsalesmel@cs.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 0:42 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Open ladder line question


>
>  In a message dated 7/24/01 10:49:43 PM Pacific Daylight
Time,
> Bgsalesmel@cs.com writes:
>
>   Hello,
>   Name is Mel, KD7DCR, here and I am new to this ham radio
gig. I am just
> getting my first station set up, tower up, etc. this
summer.
>
>   You seem to "flat know" your stuff about ladder line
applications and I
> have a basic question: i.e., How do you install your 123'
or 135' of line
> when the center connector is only +/- 45 ft from your
operating
> position/single point entry? This is a dipole design from
CQ mag of about 3
> or 4 years ago and in it they suggested using 66' to 125'
of 450 ohm line. It
> is about 140ft long made out of house grade Romex, center
at 70ft naturally,
> with the 3-cond "dasiy chained" for an effective length of
+/- 210ft per
> side. I personally think this will "look" like a 3/8" OD
single conductor due
> to induction - but, who knows: If it plays well and works
for me here, I
> don't care if it thinks it is 10ft long! Tuner will be a
MFJ-949E that
> accepts and switches 450 ohm line directly.
>
>   I can only put up a 40ft tower here to start - will
fight the permit battle
> when I can afford a self-supporting one in about 2 years.
In the mean time,
> make do with what I can afford and do now. Dipole will
hang off of this tower
> at the 32 to 34ft level, with a Unistrut/pulley assembly,
and the other end
> will be at about 22ft on a pole in my garden. Side lobe
will be centered at
> about 020 deg (true - not mag) by 200 deg.
>
>   I have an XYL that objects to "wires hanging all over
the place", etc. and
> need to keep this "looking" very sanitary. I have a blank
wall of the house,
> about 9ft tall x 14ft long, T-111 wood siding, right
beside my entry to the
> basement operating position. This is behind a green bush
right now, it would
> be in the open during winter months.
>
>   Is there any way to "loop" or "zig-zag" this excess
ladder line on this
> wall before going down into the shack? The eve has a metal
rain gutter,
> everything else is wood. Will be using one of the
Wireman's QST grounding
> spark plug devices before heading into the shack, and a
knife switch inside
> as well. I intend to disconnect from all ant and power
when not working.
>
>   Top ant on the tower is Force12 C-4.
>
>   Thanks if you can shed some light on my question.
>
>   Regards & 73's,
>   Mel Frost
>   Coeur d'Alene, ID >>
>
> Mel: Looping and zig zagging is about the only way to use
up the excessive
> open wire length or live with the higher reactive loads of
short  length
> feedlines if the tuner will match them.  If you can get
1:1 SWR on the coax
> to the rig and no arcing or warming of the tuner, you have
maximum transfer
> of energy into the input of the feedline and into the
antenna minus the loss
> in the feedline what ever it is.  Matching at the input of
the feedline is
> the most important match.
>
>  I'm going to make a "Ferris Wheel Spiro" to use up
excesive length.  The
> spacing will be about 2' between the line.  Right angle
bends are not
> recommended.  I'll grid dip it before and after.  The
Ferris Wheel can be on
> a post or on the side of the house.
>
>  I have in the past had a 2 ganged 2 pole switchs so I
could swtich in
> certain lengths of open wire line so as to obtain a Hi-Z
or a  Lo-Z for the
> tuner.  This is practical for the higher frequencies.  You
don't always need
> a tuner with typical Lo-Z's around 50 ohms reflected to
the end of a 1/2 wave
> multiple feedline.  I have found you can feed and open
wire line directly
> into the unbalanced 50 ohm output of a rig or in my case a
coax switch
> without RF in the shack.  I add a series BC 3 gang
variable in the grounded
> or shield lead.  Connect the rotor to the shield or ground
connection.
> Resonate a dipole or vertical antenna low in the band and
using a feedline
> that is a 1/2 wave multiple, you can often obtain a low
SWR and/or resistive
> load easy over the whole band to match by even the 50 ohm
rigs in many cases.
>
>
>  In the "Old Days" of "Link Coupling," one could have a
balanced or
> unbalanced output with a series variable to obtain a
resistive load to the
> final even with SWR.  Band edge operation was not a
problem it is now with 50
> ohm output finals.  With a resistive load one could swing
the link in an out
> for any power level desired without having to redip the
final.  With the
> right number of turns in the link one could reflect the
optimum load to the
> final for max output for loads of 30 to 1000 ohms also--no
tuner.  You just
> had the inconvenience of changing tank coils.  So all Art
Collins did for you
> with the band switching Pi is to eliminate plug in coils,
lower the Z
> matching range and allow only an unbalanced load.  You
could match higher
> SWR's on coax but at a lower final efficiency.  I have
built a blanced Pi
> output final for push-pull tubes and it's great for open
wire line of Hi/Lo-Z
> loads.  I still have my old Pr-813's final and will
perhaps just add 2 more
> 813's.
>
>  With open wire line you don't have to worry about your
feedline losses going
> up in time and feedline damage is easily seen and
repaired.   It is not with
> coax.  I also still have and open wire line I made in the
30's.  That's great
> feedline economy.    k7gco
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower
this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan
self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>



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From hankarn@pacbell.net  Thu Jul 26 12:36:12 2001
From: hankarn@pacbell.net (Dan)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 04:36:12 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] 25G
References: <20010725.162949.-3961955.1.W3SVJ@juno.com>
 <020101c11594$ff3522a0$139ebed0@deenjay>
Message-ID: <3B6000AC.B81EB835@pacbell.net>


I installed a R-25G that is 69' with the taper top section with a long
boom Winegard TV fringe area antenna with rotor over 10 years ago with a
tilt over base section. It is in the hills in Malibu close to the ocean
with a high wind level. We have tilted it over 3 times to replace the TV
ant. as the wind breaks off the elements. We loosen 2 of the guys and
with 4 people we lay it over up hill onto a heavy duty A frame ladder to
keep the antenna clear of the ground. Repair it and back up it goes.

It has never shown any sign of bending, has no rust and as a precaution
replaced the guys once.

Hank
KN6DI


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From n4kg@juno.com  Thu Jul 26 13:11:57 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:11:57 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] 25G
Message-ID: <20010726.062707.-14531.1.N4KG@juno.com>


You can *probably* get away with it.  Our club does this
very thing every year at Field Day with five 50 ft R25 towers,
rotor, and home made 2L single band Quads for 20 and 15M.
The towers are pre-assembled on the ground, then raised 
on step ladders to attach the Quads to the mast. As the 
tower is raised, a couple of guys walk the bottom in to the
wooden base (see below), keeping the lift rope vertical.
A 20 ft 1-1/4 inch mast is inserted inside the 2 inch Quad 
mast to support 80M dipoles at 70 ft, above the quads.

We use a trailor mounted 30 ft crankup tower with an arm
and pulleys attached at the top and bottom to make a (2:1?)
mechanical advantage block and tackle to lift the preassembled
towers in place.  Guys are attached at the 40 ft level and
small mobile home screw anchors and pre-installed using 
a giant rented power assist.  Three threaded rods are placed
through a large piece of wood to provide a flat base which is
prepositioned and used to measure anchor spacing prior to
tower erection.

Tom  N4KG

On Wed, 25 Jul 2001 w3svj@juno.com writes:
> 
> How risky is it to hoist 60 feet of 25G from somewhere above the C 
> of G? The club (Steel City ARC, W3KWH) is trying to get the ATV 
> repeater receive antenna a bit higher above the tree line. The antenna 
> represents about 1.5 sq ft of windload.
> 
> The plan is to assemble it all on the ground and secure the top guys 
> as well as tie down the hardline. Of course the earth end of the guys 
> would secured and the tower plumbed when it is upright.
> 
> The concern is, will the tower buckle under its own weight before it 
> can be swung to the vertical?
> 
> I have the "Big Book" but I can't find anything regarding this type 
> of installation.
> 
> Does the "fold over" installation equate to what we would be doing 
> as far as stressing the tower near midpoint?
> 
> 
> 
> 73 de Nate, W3SVJ, in Pittsburgh where it's not so smokey anymore.
> 


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From n4kg@juno.com  Thu Jul 26 13:23:36 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:23:36 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rhon gyn pole (Rohn ginpole)
Message-ID: <20010726.062707.-14531.2.N4KG@juno.com>


Yep, the Rohn Gin pole is 1/8 inch wall thickness, 12 ft long.
A little extra length and heavier wall would be useful for 
installing heavy sections or long masts.  It has the dull
finish typical of 6061-T6.  Only very expensive alloys are
stronger.

Tom  N4KG


On Thu, 26 Jul 2001  K7LXC@aol.com writes:
> 
> In a message dated 7/25/01 3:35:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> richmondp@home.com writes:
> 
> > I the pieces to a  Rhon gyn pole buy I need to purchase the mast.  
> What is
> >  the correct O.D. and wall thickness for this mast and is it 
> T6061-T6?  
> Where
> >  can I get the best price for this replacement?
> >  
>     It's a 2-inch OD. It's 6061-T6. The Rohn version isn't very 
> thick - 
> probably an 1/8th of an inch. It's 12-feet long. 
> 
>     Look in the yellow pages under tubing suppliers and do some 
> "smiling and 
> dialing". I bought a 15' hunk of 1/4" wall several years ago for 
> about 
> seventy-five bucks. 
> 
> Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
> Tower Tech 
> 
> Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
> Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers 
> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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> 

________________________________________________________________
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From ka4inm@qsl.net  Thu Jul 26 12:53:06 2001
From: ka4inm@qsl.net (Ron KA4INM Youvan)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:53:06 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] coax as capacitor
References: <200107260726.f6Q7QnZ08815@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <3B6004A2.BE630325@qsl.net>


Hi all:

> Assuming a cable no more than 1/4 wl long:

  If you run into this limitation, you can parallel several 
lengths of coax, in fact it would be a better idea than coiling 
it up too tightly in a coil, figure "8" or flattened "O".

  73 (= Best Regards) de: Ron ka4inm@qsl.net  SENT Time and Date are UTC
      I upgraded to LINUX, the more I use it, the more I love it.
        It doesn't do everything for you, you must program it.
         Visit my HAM Web SITE at: http://www.qsl.net/ka4inm


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From W8JI@contesting.com  Thu Jul 26 13:51:14 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:51:14 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] coax as capacitor
In-Reply-To: <3B6004A2.BE630325@qsl.net>
Message-ID: <200107261255.f6QCtVZ14078@paris.akorn.net>


>   If you run into this limitation, you can parallel several 
> lengths of coax, in fact it would be a better idea than coiling 
> it up too tightly in a coil, figure "8" or flattened "O".

True enough. That's a good suggestion!

If you parallel enough cables it starts to look like a regular 
capacitor...and behave like one. Loss decreases and capacitance 
is less frequency critical.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 


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From W8JI@contesting.com  Thu Jul 26 13:58:16 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:58:16 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wood posts
Message-ID: <200107261302.f6QD2XZ14301@paris.akorn.net>


I'm planning on using pressure treated 2x4's to support some 
Beverages. I'll just poke some holes in the ground with my tractor's 
post hole digger attachment, and drop the 2x4's in.

Does anyone have any tips on making the wood last longer, or will 
it be OK in direct contact with soil?? Will it last ten years or so?
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 


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From n7us@arrl.net  Thu Jul 26 14:26:07 2001
From: n7us@arrl.net (Jim McDonald)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:26:07 -0700
Subject: Fw: [TowerTalk] Official TT Message to All Outlook Users from TT Administrator
Message-ID: <004b01c115d6$897c64a0$f00add18@phoenix.speedchoice.com>



----- Original Message -----
From: <K7LXC@aol.com>
To: <n7us@arrl.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Official TT Message to All Outlook Users from TT
Administrator


In a message dated 7/25/01 10:31:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, n7us@arrl.net
writes:

> In Outlook Express, the choice for plain text is either MIME or UUENCODE.
>  I'm sending this as plain text with MIME.
>
>  How does it look?

    Well, it looks okay to me but this message isn't going thru
contesting.com. Try a post an see what happens. If it bounces, I'll know it.

Cheers,    Steve     K7LXC
TT Admin




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From w2up@mindspring.com  Thu Jul 26 15:06:28 2001
From: w2up@mindspring.com (Barry )
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:06:28 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wood posts
In-Reply-To: <200107261302.f6QD2XZ14301@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <200107261406.KAA25825@blount.mail.mindspring.net>


Tom:

Another material you may want to consider is PVC. I use 10 ft 
sections of 1 1/2 inch PVC pipe. I cut a slit in the top, with a hack 
saw, about 3 inches deep, and wedge the wire in the slit. At the 
bottom, I use a short piece rebar scrap (~2 ft long) pushed (by 
hand or sledge hammer, depending on how soft the ground is at 
the time) 1/2 way into the ground, then I put the PVC pipe over it.

My Beverages are up only from October to April, as one goes 
across a farmed field, and it's very quick and easy this way to 
install and remove them.  I've been using the same rebar and PVC 
pipe for almost 10 years, with no degradation, and the supports 
have withstood big winds, snowstorms, etc. without a problem.

73,
Barry W2UP


On 26 Jul 01, at 8:58, Tom Rauch wrote:

> 
> I'm planning on using pressure treated 2x4's to support some 
> Beverages. I'll just poke some holes in the ground with my tractor's
> post hole digger attachment, and drop the 2x4's in.
> 
> Does anyone have any tips on making the wood last longer, or will it
> be OK in direct contact with soil?? Will it last ten years or so? 73,
> Tom W8JI W8JI@contesting.com 
> 
> 
> -----
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--
Barry Kutner, W2UP              Internet: w2up@mindspring.com
Newtown, PA                     Frankford Radio Club
        


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From VE6JY Don Moman" <ve6jy@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Thu Jul 26 15:24:32 2001
From: VE6JY Don Moman" <ve6jy@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (VE6JY Don Moman)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:24:32 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wood posts
References: <200107261302.f6QD2XZ14301@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <004801c115de$c2fbf620$a5cea1c6@ve6jy>


My choice would be to use pressure treated fence posts - 3" or so by 6'
long.  Then bolt or screw (I just use 3.5" drywall screws) your 2x4 to
that....  slightly more money but 2 advantages:
- lets you easily change or adjust the height above ground and is easy to
repair when a moose/cow/ whatever you have runs amok thru the beverage
field. (I used2x2's which break well before the post would).

Real pressure treated - not just painted or dipped -  posts last a long
time, easily 10 years I'd say.

73 Don
VE6JY


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Rauch" <w8ji@akorn.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 13:58
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wood posts


>
> I'm planning on using pressure treated 2x4's to support some
> Beverages. I'll just poke some holes in the ground with my tractor's
> post hole digger attachment, and drop the 2x4's in.
>
> Does anyone have any tips on making the wood last longer, or will
> it be OK in direct contact with soil?? Will it last ten years or so?
> 73, Tom W8JI
> W8JI@contesting.com
>
>
> -----
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From w3svj@juno.com  Thu Jul 26 16:24:11 2001
From: w3svj@juno.com (w3svj@juno.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:24:11 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 25G, ad nauseam
Message-ID: <20010726.114127.-3985663.2.W3SVJ@juno.com>



Thanks folks;
I'm very encouraged by all of the good info presented.
Art, W1RZF, has a "picture perfect" copy of how we will end up. In my
haste,  I didn't mention the telephone pole which is to be our "hoisting
gin pole", back guys and all. We will probably hinge it at the bottom and
swing it up just as you have done.
Thanks again to all. good stuff!

73 de Nate, W3SVJ, in Pittsburgh where it's not so smokey anymore.

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From n4zr@contesting.com  Thu Jul 26 16:40:59 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:40:59 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wood posts
In-Reply-To: <200107261302.f6QD2XZ14301@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010726114059.00a37350@mail.abs.adelphia.net>


At 08:58 AM 7/26/01 -0400, W8JI wrote:
>
>I'm planning on using pressure treated 2x4's to support some 
>Beverages. I'll just poke some holes in the ground with my tractor's 
>post hole digger attachment, and drop the 2x4's in.
>
>Does anyone have any tips on making the wood last longer, or will 
>it be OK in direct contact with soil?? Will it last ten years or so?

Can't say for sure about your soil, but I recently pulled some 4X4 PT (CCA)
fence posts that had been in the ground here for 8-9 years, and they showed
no visible deterioration.  I understand that some PT wood now uses a
non-CCA treatment, and I don't know if it is comparably durable.

A much more serious problem is what happens above ground.  I have had some
8' 4X4s that warped over almost a 30 degree arc in 6 months.  There seems
to be a correlation between the presence of knots and the propensity to
warp, perhaps because of differential absorption of the waterproofing
compound.

73, Pete N4ZR







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From n8rit@yahoo.com  Thu Jul 26 17:19:17 2001
From: n8rit@yahoo.com (Nathaniel Gates)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:19:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] How high should my Tower be for 10-20 Meters?
Message-ID: <20010726161917.86727.qmail@web14601.mail.yahoo.com>


I am considering erecting a 30' tower of either
American (Dill) or Rohn 25G.  First, is 30' tall
enough?  I live in Trotwood, Ohio (not far from where
the Dayton Hamvention is held) and have been given a
mandate by my wife... "No Guy Wires"!  To my
understanding, Rohn 25 does not need to be guyed if
shorter than 40'.  That's my second question.  Did I
understand the spec correctly.  Thanks in advance for
your responses.

Nathaniel Gates, N8RIT

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From k1xt@hotmail.com  Thu Jul 26 17:40:54 2001
From: k1xt@hotmail.com (bill thomas)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:40:54 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wood posts
Message-ID: <LAW2-F905HfqR77bieL0000966c@hotmail.com>





>From: Pete Smith <n4zr@contesting.com>
>To: towertalk@contesting.com
>Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Wood posts
>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:40:59 -0400
>
>
>At 08:58 AM 7/26/01 -0400, W8JI wrote:
> >
> >I'm planning on using pressure treated 2x4's to support some
> >Beverages. I'll just poke some holes in the ground with my tractor's
> >post hole digger attachment, and drop the 2x4's in.
> >
> >Does anyone have any tips on making the wood last longer, or will
> >it be OK in direct contact with soil?? Will it last ten years or so?
>
>Can't say for sure about your soil, but I recently pulled some 4X4 PT (CCA)
>fence posts that had been in the ground here for 8-9 years, and they showed
>no visible deterioration.  I understand that some PT wood now uses a
>non-CCA treatment, and I don't know if it is comparably durable.
>
>A much more serious problem is what happens above ground.  I have had some
>8' 4X4s that warped over almost a 30 degree arc in 6 months.  There seems
>to be a correlation between the presence of knots and the propensity to
>warp, perhaps because of differential absorption of the waterproofing
>compound.
>
>73, Pete N4ZR
>


Very true, Pete.  I now remember my father in-law who is a farmer commenting 
on how treated lumber is much more likely to warp.  He too attributed it to 
how it is daily sprayed in a somewhat haphazard manner.  Not all treated 
wood is the same.  I'm surprised yours lasted that long in the ground.  It 
depends somewhat on the soil.

Bill   k1xt

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From k1my@qwest.net  Thu Jul 26 17:29:57 2001
From: k1my@qwest.net (Bruce Makas)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:29:57 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] KT36XA
Message-ID: <EOEFIGFENHCAGPPJFHAHEEBGCHAA.k1my@qwest.net>


Has anyone performed the KT34XA to KT36XA upgrade as yet? How did it go and
was it worth the effort?

73, Bruce K1MY

Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona



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From n4kg@juno.com  Thu Jul 26 18:23:18 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:23:18 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] How high should my Tower be for 10-20 Meters?
Message-ID: <20010726.112528.-13957.1.N4KG@juno.com>


I recommend 40 ft for a low tribander.
I would NEVER put up R25 without guys 
or some other means of support (house bracket).

For a NO GUY installation, you would be better off
with a tapered tower having a wide base.  Heights
and Universal make tapered Aluminum towers.
The HDBX series Rohn towers use pressed steel
vertical members and X bracing.  

de  Tom  N4KG

On Thu, 26 Jul 2001  Nathaniel Gates <n8rit@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> I am considering erecting a 30' tower of either
> American (Dill) or Rohn 25G.  First, is 30' tall
> enough?  I live in Trotwood, Ohio (not far from where
> the Dayton Hamvention is held) and have been given a
> mandate by my wife... "No Guy Wires"!  To my
> understanding, Rohn 25 does not need to be guyed if
> shorter than 40'.  That's my second question.  Did I
> understand the spec correctly.  Thanks in advance for
> your responses.
> 
> Nathaniel Gates, N8RIT
> 
> __________________________________________________
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From n0tt1@juno.com  Thu Jul 26 16:51:55 2001
From: n0tt1@juno.com (n0tt1@juno.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:51:55 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wood posts
Message-ID: <20010726.165654.-10289.0.n0tt1@juno.com>


I've had all I can take from "treated" wood posts!  hi hi
(but see below).
They simply don't seem to last for a "reasonable"
length of time around here in Missouri...so I use
7' steel fencing "T" posts, pounded in with a hand-held
post driver (a heavy steel pipe, plugged at one end
with a large solid steel rod, welded in place)...then
I tie on say, a 10 foot length of 2" PVC pipe
with heavy cord, or in some cases, large hose clamps.
The pipes do not need to be guyed except for the
ends of a Beverage run.  I leave the top and bottom
"open" on the pipe to discourage insects from moving in.

The inexpensive "Cell Core" type of PVC works just
fine...has a thick enough wall that is plenty stiff to
support beverage wires.  It comes in 20 ft lengths
at farm supply stores but you can easily cut it with
a hack saw at the time of purchase for transport home. 

No holes to dig in the ground, easy to pull up
with a tractor lift arm or bumper jack, easy to install
and 100% reusable!

Now, if one "has to" to use wood for permanent installations,
I have *heard* that the life of underground wood can be
extended by drilling a hole downward, say 45 degrees just above
ground level and squirting in a wood preservative
(such as "Penta") then inserting a cork.  "Penta" will
leach out over time into surrounding soil (see below!)
and into the wood.  Insect damage/"rot" usually occurs in the 
first 6 inches or so below ground level so that's the
area that needs protection.

Replenish the chemical every couple of years or
so.  A word of caution though..."Penta" and other wood
preservation chemicals are, in a word, "nasty" stuff and
I personally don't use it for health and environmental
damage it can cause.  

73,
Charlie, N0TT

On Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:58:16 -0400 "Tom Rauch" <w8ji@akorn.net> writes:
> 
> I'm planning on using pressure treated 2x4's to support some 
> Beverages. I'll just poke some holes in the ground with my tractor's 
> 
> post hole digger attachment, and drop the 2x4's in.
> 
> Does anyone have any tips on making the wood last longer, or will 
> it be OK in direct contact with soil?? Will it last ten years or so?
> 73, Tom W8JI
> W8JI@contesting.com 
> 
> 
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From franknorton@home.com  Thu Jul 26 18:05:00 2001
From: franknorton@home.com (Frank Norton)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:05:00 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wood posts
In-Reply-To: <200107261302.f6QD2XZ14301@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010726124438.00a09240@mail.baycty1.mi.home.com>


In the state of Michigan there is a grade of pressure treated lumber that 
is commonly used for the construction of basements and submerged 
structures.  This requires a 30 year lifespan in direct contact with soil, 
water, or atmospheric change such as freezing, rain and all other 
"normally" expected stressors.  It does not have to withstand certain 
pressure stresses outside the range of "normal" (whatever that 
is).  Counties are allowed to have more restrictive codes but this is very 
common.

Most lumber yards also stock a much cheaper wood that has the same greenish 
tint but is not really pressure treated, Hence certain specifications that 
must be met for basement/foundation usage. Even the cheaper material is 
used for fences that are in far beyond ten years.

Hope this helps.

Frank, KB8XU

  At 08:58 AM 7/26/2001 -0400, you wrote:

>I'm planning on using pressure treated 2x4's to support some
>Beverages. I'll just poke some holes in the ground with my tractor's
>post hole digger attachment, and drop the 2x4's in.
>
>Does anyone have any tips on making the wood last longer, or will
>it be OK in direct contact with soil?? Will it last ten years or so?
>73, Tom W8JI
>W8JI@contesting.com
>
>
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From w5kp@swbell.net  Thu Jul 26 18:02:25 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:02:25 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wood posts
References: <200107261302.f6QD2XZ14301@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <001701c115f4$bff20f80$a108b8d1@jkdesktop>


Hi Tom,

Where I'm at (central OK), pressure treated 4x4 fence posts are good for at
least 10-12 years IF I slop on some good old asphalt roofing tar about 6"
above and below ground level before setting them. Haven't tried 2x4's but
should be the same. For whatever reason, wood deeper than 6-8" seems to last
ok, but the first 6" of soil (maybe because it gets "wet" more often?) seems
to rot much faster if not coated, and untarred posts break off at ground
level after only a few years. A "collar" of quickcrete seems to provide the
same protection if that's easier, and adds a lot of stability, but is still
easy to jerk out with the tractor if you ever need to.

I've often wondered if galvanized chain link fence posts using electric
fence standoff insulators wouldn't be a better longterm and cheaper solution
for beverages, but I've never built a beverage, so who knows...
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Rauch <w8ji@akorn.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 7:58 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wood posts


>
> I'm planning on using pressure treated 2x4's to support some
> Beverages. I'll just poke some holes in the ground with my tractor's
> post hole digger attachment, and drop the 2x4's in.
>
> Does anyone have any tips on making the wood last longer, or will
> it be OK in direct contact with soil?? Will it last ten years or so?
> 73, Tom W8JI
> W8JI@contesting.com
>
>
> -----
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>




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From w8ik@subich.com  Thu Jul 26 18:26:13 2001
From: w8ik@subich.com (Joe Subich, K4IK)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:26:13 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] How high should my Tower be for 10-20 Meters?
In-Reply-To: <20010726161917.86727.qmail@web14601.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBIIJIANGBKAMMJLBKMEKJECAA.w8ik@subich.com>


Nathaniel, 

Many years ago when I was in Columbus my studies indicated 
one wanted to be around 50 to 55 feet for reasonable minimum 
performance on 20 meters (I don't believe one gets enough bang 
for the buck putting a 20 meter yagi much below 50').  

That said, I would not trust either American or Rohn 25 
without guys at any height.  Look at a tower designed for 
free standing service like the Trylon Titan.  For a small 
tribander (C-3, etc.). With the minimal windload requirements 
in your area, one of the lighter duty Trylon towers at 48 or 
56' would be an excellent solution. 

73, 

   ... Joe, K4IK 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Nathaniel Gates
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 12:19 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: [TowerTalk] How high should my Tower be for 10-20 Meters?
> 
> 
> 
> I am considering erecting a 30' tower of either
> American (Dill) or Rohn 25G.  First, is 30' tall
> enough?  I live in Trotwood, Ohio (not far from where
> the Dayton Hamvention is held) and have been given a
> mandate by my wife... "No Guy Wires"!  To my
> understanding, Rohn 25 does not need to be guyed if
> shorter than 40'.  That's my second question.  Did I
> understand the spec correctly.  Thanks in advance for
> your responses.
> 
> Nathaniel Gates, N8RIT
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
> http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
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From n2tk@earthlink.net  Thu Jul 26 18:42:21 2001
From: n2tk@earthlink.net (N2TK)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:42:21 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wood posts
In-Reply-To: <001701c115f4$bff20f80$a108b8d1@jkdesktop>
Message-ID: <000001c115fa$d94883a0$f1e1b23f@tony>



I have had 2" x 4" treated posts in the ground for 5 years so far without
any problems. Before I installed them I soaked the bottom 3' for a few days
in Thompson's Water Seal. Then I let them dry for a few days before using
them. No idea if what I did was of benefit.

Tony



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From ChrisB@prism.co.za  Thu Jul 26 19:27:36 2001
From: ChrisB@prism.co.za (Chris Burger)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 20:27:36 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Taming an 80 m beam
Message-ID: <C84D1E1984CBD411BCEF00D0B7A7D5C90155C0A0@EXCHANGE>


When I started contesting in the early Eighties, even 40 m beams were not
that commonplace.  The few big guns who used them were LOUD--PY5EG, I2VRN
and a few others.

As they proliferated, my awe-struck teenage eyes shifted to 80 m beams.
There were but a handful again--I5NPH, OH1RY and W2HCW spring to mind.  I
promised myself at age 20 that I would have an 80 m beam before my 40th
birthday.

I'm now 36.  Fortunately for me, N6BT and others came up with some design
philosophies that helped to bring it within reach.  Thinner diameter
elements, using thick walls and high-grade materials, have reduced the wind
load of practical 80 m elements to the point that a much flimsier tower will
hold one aloft.

I remember the legend that an 80 m beam is a life-long maintenance
commitment.  However, I'm a firm believer that if things are done right,
they will survive.  Doing it within an amateur budget is another matter,
though.

I finally got my 80 m beam flying around my 34th birthday.  It's a Force 12
Magnum 2/3, with 2 el on 80 and 3 el on 40 collocated on the same boom.
Although it's loaded on both bands, it's still a monster by most standards.
The boom is something like 15 m long; boom diameter is something over 150
mm, and the whole thing weighs over 100 kg (50', 6" and 220 lbs if you
insist).  However, because of its loaded elements and relatively light
weight, it doesn't demand a megabuck tower.  In my case, my tower is 42 m
(138') tall, with this monster at 36 m (118').  The tower has a face width
of over 1 m (3'), and weighs in at over two tonnes.  It is guyed at three
levels and in three directions.  It is not a toy by any standards, and
really taxed my engineering design, construction and erection skills to
their limits.  

Tuning this beast was an overwhelming undertaking.  Each element went up and
down over a dozen times, to get the four band segments tuned exactly right.
The entire beam went up and down three times before the feedpoint was
properly matched.  The whole process took two guys (me and ZS6AWK) around 20
hours.  This doesn't sound like much, unless you try and squeeze it into
your work schedule!  I couldn't get the 40 m portion working at all;
resonance was easy to achieve, but at high SWR.  Low SWR was easy to
achieve, but not in the band.  It's still inoperative to this day, although
it has not been a high priority because of lots of other remaining work and
the availability of another decent 40 m beam.

Using the thing was awesome.  Signals that could not even be imagined on the
wire antennas and the loaded tower were audible.  Given our high QRN level,
anything that was audible was also workable.  My biggest surprise came when
I was calling several audible mults after sunrise in CQWW CW.  The beam
could still hear signals at least half an hour after the other antennas had
lost the last ones.

The first problem came with the rotator.  The OR2800P simply broke under the
sideways load imposed by the cable drive.  The cable drive was based on a
W3LPL idea.  The sideways load was less than that imposed by a load as
specified, mounted exactly on the mast clamp (i.e. best case).  The brittle
fracture appears to be due to a casting fault.  Modifying the tower for a
chain drive took considerable creative engineering, as a split sprocket had
to be machined to fit around the mast without removing it.

After fixing the rotator, I had more than two years of service from the
beam.  It's a wonderful performer, both on Phone and CW.  I expect I had
less than 50 hours of use all told, as that is simply how little operating I
get done.

The beam suddenly died one day, and then resurrected itself intermittently
for some time.  Fixing the problem involved taking the beam down and
replacing the balun.  The original Bencher BY1 had unsoldered itself.  I've
learned a lesson here:  Don't try and save on baluns.  Having to haul an 80
m beam up and down is worth quite a few dollars.  After fixing the balun and
hauling the antenna back up, the resonant point was about 10 kHz low.
Clearly, more work will be required.  I'm hoping to find the time before
CQWW this year.

Was it worth it?  Yes and no.

On the one hand, I just had to try it, and there isn't another one around to
try.  I also had to keep my promise to myself.  It really is an awesome
performer.

On the other hand, given the magnitude of the project, it's hardly a sane
choice.  Paying that price for something like on S unit over a vertical is
not a reasonable decision.  If you really need the gain, a vertical array
will give you the same thing with instant direction switching, and far less
cost.  The vertical array's only disadvantage is the space required, but
even that disadvantage can be ameliorated to some extent by using
close-spaced triangular arrays and creative radial arrangements.

We all know that these decisions are not taken fully on reason, though.  You
can't knock an 80 m beam unless you've tried it!

To summarise:  I've had two failures in about three years.  The rotator
failure was probably due to a faulty shaft, but could have been avoided by
using a three-bearing arrangement such as is in place at the moment.  The
other failure was due to an unreliable balun, something that could have been
avoided if I'd had the luxury of walking into a dealer's premises and
touchy-feeling a few different types.  I had to order blindly from paper.  I
guess if I'd had the benefit of experience with either of those subjects
before, the beam might well still be operating.  Whether this kind of
reliability could be achieved in less benign climates, though, is anyone's
guess.


Chris R. Burger
ZS6EZ

PS:  You can see some pictures on http://zs6ez.za.org.


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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Thu Jul 26 19:39:29 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:39:29 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] How high should my Tower be for 10-20 Meters?
Message-ID: <003401c11602$e75c0e00$4684c640@spelunk.sueno>


Nathaniel:

     I would second Joe Subich K4IK's recommendation against unguyed Rohn
tower at that height and recommending the Trylon self-supporting tower
series.  I'm in the process of putting up a 64-foot Trylon in my small back
yard.  Check out www.qth.com/KA9FOX   and   www.qsl.net/n8wrl/index.htm
for photo records of typical installations.  Also check out
www.championradio.com  for pricing info on the Trylons.   But you'll need to
know wind information about your location, which will help you decide which
model Trylon tower to buy (assuming you go that way.)  Champion Radio also
has a page on wind speed listed by US counties.

     Good luck and let us know how you decide to proceed.

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F


-----Original Message-----
From: Nathaniel Gates <n8rit@yahoo.com>
To: towertalk@contesting.com <towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Thursday, July 26, 2001 1:58 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] How high should my Tower be for 10-20 Meters?


>
>I am considering erecting a 30' tower of either
>American (Dill) or Rohn 25G.  First, is 30' tall
>enough?  I live in Trotwood, Ohio (not far from where
>the Dayton Hamvention is held) and have been given a
>mandate by my wife... "No Guy Wires"!  To my
>understanding, Rohn 25 does not need to be guyed if
>shorter than 40'.  That's my second question.  Did I
>understand the spec correctly.  Thanks in advance for
>your responses.
>
>Nathaniel Gates, N8RIT
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
>http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
>
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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Thu Jul 26 19:42:09 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:42:09 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] How high should my Tower be for 10-20 Meters?
Message-ID: <20010726184306.JKXX29466.imf02bis.bellsouth.net@[192.168.0.20]>


On 7/26/01 12:19 PM, Nathaniel Gates at n8rit@yahoo.com wrote:

>I am considering erecting a 30' tower of either
>American (Dill) or Rohn 25G.  First, is 30' tall
>enough?  

That depends. If 30' is as high as you can go, so be it.

Practically speaking, 30' is just barely 1/2 wave on 20m. That is about 
as low as you want to mount a yagi, since the proximity to ground really 
starts to distort the patern. (Although there are plenty of folks who use 
40m yagis at 50 feet -- not the most optimum height, but you do what you 
can)

>I live in Trotwood, Ohio (not far from where
>the Dayton Hamvention is held) and have been given a
>mandate by my wife... "No Guy Wires"!  To my
>understanding, Rohn 25 does not need to be guyed if
>shorter than 40'.  That's my second question.  Did I
>understand the spec correctly.  Thanks in advance for
>your responses.

According to the Rohn catalog, Rohn 25G is self-supporting to 70 mph, 
no-ice conditions, with only 1.6 square feet (projected round) of 
antenna. I'm not sure what the wind category is for Trotwood, OH, and you 
have to figure that any small tribander is going to be at least 4 square 
feet.

Another thing to consider is -- do you want to CLIMB 40 feet of unguyed 
Rohn 25? I'm just getting started with my tower, and I know I feel 
uncomfortable on top of 25' of Rohn 25 that's bracketed at 9'. 
(Hopefully, as I gain climbing experience, I'll feel more comfortable)

An alternative is to consider a bracketed tower. Put the tower base 
within a foot or two of your house or garage, and then bracket to the 
structure as high as you can manage. Rohn specs a 40 foot tower, 
bracketed at 30 and 15 feet as carrying 15.3 square feet (projected 
round). 

You can't practically go more than about 20 feet or so above the bracket 
(remember you still have to climb it...), and you'll have to reinforce 
your building structure to distribute the bracket loads. But it is just 
as good as having guy wires at the same height.




Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901




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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Thu Jul 26 19:51:07 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:51:07 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] RE: Source for antenna masts......
Message-ID: <20010726185202.DGTD2896.imf06bis.bellsouth.net@[192.168.0.20]>


On 7/26/01 1:11 AM, K7LXC@aol.com at K7LXC@aol.com wrote:

>    As always: what's your county windspeed rating and how far above the top 
>of the tower will the antenna be?
>
>    For an 80 MPH and below and the antenna is within one-foot of the top of 
>the tower, go to Home Depot or anyplace that's got 1.5" waterpipe or 
>conduit. That's FB for this application.

The only problem with 1.5" waterpipe or rigid conduit is that it doesn't 
make a great fit for the mountings designed for 2" masting.

I have my R7000 mounted on 1.5" rigid conduit (not to be confused with 
EMT). The U-bolt saddles do not fit well around the conduit, and I had to 
develop some shims out of 1.5" PVC to get the antenna to sit straight.

If you use a 1.5" conduit with a thrust bearing, you will encounter axis 
errors between the rotator and bearing, unless you carefully shim the 
rotator. Even so, the U-bolt saddles on the beam may not fit well.

That said, I came up with a low-cost way to obtain a mast -- I put out a 
call to my local ham buddies. A quick e-mail on the local contesters list 
produced three sources for a short (5-9') 2" mast. A local ham was happy 
to supply me with an Al mast at a price that can't be beat. 

So, look around. Someone may have a 20 foot bent mast that can be 
salvaged to produce a good 5-10 foot section in your area.



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901




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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Thu Jul 26 19:57:09 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:57:09 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wood posts
Message-ID: <20010726185804.KBYP15748.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@[192.168.0.20]>


On 7/26/01 8:58 AM, Tom Rauch at w8ji@akorn.net wrote:

>I'm planning on using pressure treated 2x4's to support some 
>Beverages. I'll just poke some holes in the ground with my tractor's 
>post hole digger attachment, and drop the 2x4's in.
>
>Does anyone have any tips on making the wood last longer, or will 
>it be OK in direct contact with soil?? Will it last ten years or so?

Depends. Where I used to live in Stone Mountain, the termites were so 
thick that they ate away a pressure-treated mailbox post in 4 years.

I suggest you encase the 2x4 in a couple of bags of concrete. That will 
tend to keep the bugs away, and the support will last longer.



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901




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From n8rit@yahoo.com  Thu Jul 26 20:40:21 2001
From: n8rit@yahoo.com (Nathaniel Gates)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:40:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] Freestanding Towers
Message-ID: <20010726194021.68884.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com>


Thanks to everyone who helped with their advice to
eliminate the un-guyed Rohn/American tower.  My next
dilemma will be which freestanding tower.  Many have
suggested the Trylon to which seems to be a great
tower.  I have noticed that many erect this tower with
a crane.  I have no way to get a crane near the spot
to where I wish to erect my tower.  Are there
alternatives to erecting the Trylon?  What about the
Universal freestanding tower?  Does anyone have any
experience with them?

I remain eternally grateful for all of your input.

Nathaniel gates, N8RIT

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Thu Jul 26 21:34:01 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:34:01 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Freestanding Towers
Message-ID: <000c01c11612$51ae89e0$7e83c640@spelunk.sueno>


Nathaniel:

     I, too, have no way to get a crane close to the tower site (OK - it'll
cost me a lot of bucks, too.)  So I'm building my Trylon piece by piece
above me as I climb it.  I first fully assembled the bottom section with the
base stubs and set it into the hole.  After the concrete cured (a couple of
weeks at least) I hauled the three legs for the second section up on ropes
and bolted them in place.  Then I hauled up the angle pieces for that
section and bolted them in place between the tower legs.  Then I continued
with the legs for the next 8-foot section.  It's a pain but it can be done.
It took me about 2 hours to assemble and straighten out each 8-foot section.

     I have 32 feet of tower (four sections) in place so far.  I'll install
the grounding system (probably next week) before I raise the last four
sections and get ready for antennas.

     This reflector is invaluable for the information you can get from it.
Look through the archives for info on rotator installation, coax grounding,
lightning protection, tools, etc., etc.

73 de
Gene Smar   AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: Nathaniel Gates <n8rit@yahoo.com>
To: Tower_Talk <towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Thursday, July 26, 2001 4:07 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Freestanding Towers


>
>Thanks to everyone who helped with their advice to
>eliminate the un-guyed Rohn/American tower.  My next
>dilemma will be which freestanding tower.  Many have
>suggested the Trylon to which seems to be a great
>tower.  I have noticed that many erect this tower with
>a crane.  I have no way to get a crane near the spot
>to where I wish to erect my tower.  Are there
>alternatives to erecting the Trylon?  What about the
>Universal freestanding tower?  Does anyone have any
>experience with them?
>
>I remain eternally grateful for all of your input.
>
>Nathaniel gates, N8RIT
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
>http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
>
>
>-----
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>



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From shr@ricc.net  Thu Jul 26 22:57:48 2001
From: shr@ricc.net (W0UN--Signal Hill Ranch)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:57:48 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Adjustable Phase Shift networks
In-Reply-To: <97A30A2BBA23D411842900D0B726125D6165BE@srvex03-sanjose.Cad
 ence.COM>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.20010726154225.00cb62c0@mail.ricc.net>


At 08:03 AM 2001-07-26, you wrote:
>Thanks.  I think the original article did use a hybrid coupler.

Mel--

Here is a little more info now that I am back from my errands.
I have a few extra minutes so I could dig up some info for you.
There are no cookbook directions to do the hybrid phase shifter.
But check out FIG 10A (page 78) in Ham Radio March 1983.
This is the main reference to what you need in order to do the
phase shift network with a hybrid.  And the article listed below
on capacitively-coupled hybrids shows how to build a 90 deg
hybrid using two caps and two pieces of coax.  I have built
a couple of these for high power and used them to combine
two HF amps.  RG-213 and doorknob caps will work FB
at HF for the legal limit.

For other ham references to hybrids check out the following.

April and May 1984 Ham Radio article on Branch-Line Hybrids
June 1982 Ham Radio on the Hybrid Coupler
October 1983 Ham Radio HF Hybrids: A Second Look
March 1983 Ham Radio Capacitively Coupled Hybrids
August 1983 Ham Radio The Hybrid Ring
January 1982 Ham Radio Wilkinson Hybrids
March 1978 Ham Radio High-Frequency Hybrids and Couplers
July 1970 Ham Radio Microwave Hybrids and Couplers
August 1972 Ham Radio N-Way Power Dividers and 3-dB Hybrids
October 1979 QST Broadband Hybrid Splitters and summers
January 1978 QST Twisted-Wire Quadrature Hybrid Directional Couplers

These will give you a start--at least the ham literature sources.

73--John  W0UN



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From ve3tu@rac.ca  Thu Jul 26 23:20:36 2001
From: ve3tu@rac.ca (Steve)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 23:20:36 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Taming an 80 m beam
References: <C84D1E1984CBD411BCEF00D0B7A7D5C90155C0A0@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <3B6097B4.205D93EE@rac.ca>


Hi Chris, your post is interesting reading and I can sympathize with
your experience with tuning or should I say taming the Force 12 antenna.
I had a similar experience with a C31XR where I had to put it up and
down tower a few times. I have it up at 100 ft so its no small task. The
Cushcraft XM520 at 150 ft. went up and tuned up good. I wish Force 12
had better instructions on how to tune the antenna and for what portion
of the band you want it to play in. I had to reduce the 15m driven
elements by 1.25 " to get the low swr point into the 15m band. I suppose
I could have shortened it a bit more since the low swr point is at
21.050 mc. now. A friend had a similar experience with a 12 & 17 dual
bander where the low swr point was 1.5:1 on 17m and 1.7:1 on 12m and
everyone I talked to that put up C31XRs had high swr on 15m. The XT34
that I've had for over 20 years has better swr curves than the Force 12
and the KLM was designed before computer modeling was main stream. It
just make me wonder how much loss that 100 ft. peice of coax has that is
used to check the antennas at the factory.

  ps as a side note yes I tried ever combination of wire and coil
spacing before I shortened the 15m element

gl es 73 cu in the contests. Steve



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From ve3tu@rac.ca  Thu Jul 26 23:30:26 2001
From: ve3tu@rac.ca (Steve)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 23:30:26 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Andres connectors
Message-ID: <3B609A02.2C5A9C14@rac.ca>


Hi all, a friend has a quantity of Andrew's L7PNM, L7PMF, L4PNM and
L4PMF connectors  for sale. If interested email ve3sy@rac.ca     ask for
Paul.

73 Steve



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From MWapner@Vetronix.com  Fri Jul 27 00:43:39 2001
From: MWapner@Vetronix.com (Mike Wapner)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:43:39 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Sailboat Antenna with Un-Stayed Mast
Message-ID: <11CA8AEBA4D7D0119FFF00805F29965D02079C25@EXCHANGE_NT1>


Has anyone had experience with driving an un-stayed (self-supported mast)
that is grounded (sea water ground) at it's base.  The mast is approximately
50' high and has only a forestay (rigging & electrical connection from the
top of the mast to the bow of the boat).  It is insulated at the bow and the
forestay is thus an extension of the top of the mast.  I would think that
this is a similar situation to driving a grounded tower or mast where
various coupling schemes can be employed.  The solutions must be
aesthetically pleasing and satisfy a marine environment.  Any ideas or
comments would be welcome.  Thank you.

Mike - K6QD



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From SavageBR@aol.com  Fri Jul 27 01:40:58 2001
From: SavageBR@aol.com (SavageBR@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 20:40:58 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Sailboat Antenna with Un-Stayed Mast
Message-ID: <c4.17b802c2.2892129a@aol.com>


I do not have the specific experience you mentioned. I load a wire from the 
stern to the top of the mast. My forestay and back stay are both grounded and 
I did not want to insulate the backstay. 

I use an auto tuner at the base of the 41 ft wire just under the stern deck. 
Although the antenna is close to the back stay, it seems works fine on all of 
the HF bands. 

The secret is to spend most of your time establishing a GOOD ground. It is 
not as simple as it sounds while you are sitting out there on a saltwater 
surface. I bonded everything together, the toe rail, bow and stern pulpits, 
engine, two ground plates outside the keel, and laid brass screen wire in the 
hull at and below the waterline everywhere I could find room. I used 1 inch 
flat cu strips for all of the bonding.

It seems to work out great, even on 160. It is very quiet several miles off 
shore!! However, don't expect much in a marina. There are too many RFI loaded 
battery chargers going on other boats.

GL
Bruce  AA4Z


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From k3air@arrl.net  Fri Jul 27 05:15:13 2001
From: k3air@arrl.net (Mike Lazaroff K3AIR)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:15:13 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] What's Rohn 25 worth?
Message-ID: <008501c11652$be2e01a0$e28b28d0@k3air>


Can someone tell me what the Rohn 25 10-foot section and the Rohn 25 top
section sell for now?  A friend has several sections he bought new and never
put up.  He wants to sell them and I'm trying to determine what a reasonable
offer would be.

Thanks and 73,
Mike K3AIR




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From steve@oakcom.com  Fri Jul 27 14:16:13 2001
From: steve@oakcom.com (Steve Maki)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:16:13 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Freestanding Towers
In-Reply-To: <000c01c11612$51ae89e0$7e83c640@spelunk.sueno>
References: <000c01c11612$51ae89e0$7e83c640@spelunk.sueno>
Message-ID: <qrp2mt4u16qjcude8ptamqg1kmkgi6g784@4ax.com>


Gene Smar   AD3F wrote:

>Nathaniel:
>
>     I, too, have no way to get a crane close to the tower site (OK - it'll
>cost me a lot of bucks, too.)  So I'm building my Trylon piece by piece
>above me as I climb it.  I first fully assembled the bottom section with the
>base stubs and set it into the hole.  After the concrete cured (a couple of
>weeks at least) I hauled the three legs for the second section up on ropes
>and bolted them in place.  Then I hauled up the angle pieces for that
>section and bolted them in place between the tower legs.  Then I continued
>with the legs for the next 8-foot section.  It's a pain but it can be done.
>It took me about 2 hours to assemble and straighten out each 8-foot section.

Why not assemble each section on the ground and hoist into place
with a gin pole? I installed many Trylons that way in the 80s and
it was a fairly smooth process. I seem to recall thinking, as I was
installing the stuff, of ways to minimize my time in the air on those
towers, as they are rather rough on the ankles & feet.

73,
--
Steve K8LX


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From k6sdw@arrl.net  Fri Jul 27 02:31:43 2001
From: k6sdw@arrl.net (Eddy Avila)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 01:31:43 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice
Message-ID: <F70E8NpqhNPPzQT456U0000022d@hotmail.com>


Well, the xyl is up in arms about my new 32' butternut vertical in the back 
yard!!! G A D!!

So, I'm afraid I need to paint the damn thing, probably green so its not so 
"bright" in her landscape. Any suggestions on a paint manufacturer? I've 
heard many paints contain metal particles which I would guess would be a bad 
thing on the antenna and should be avoided?

Thanks for any suggestions/experiences --

73...../ed

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



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From FireBrick" <w9ol@billnjudy.com  Fri Jul 27 02:47:21 2001
From: FireBrick" <w9ol@billnjudy.com (FireBrick)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 20:47:21 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice
References: <F70E8NpqhNPPzQT456U0000022d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <04f901c1163e$14322aa0$0201a8c0@billnjudy>


may be easier to spray paint the landscaping an oxidized gray, it will blend
in better.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Eddy Avila" <k6sdw@hotmail.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 8:31 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice


>
> Well, the xyl is up in arms about my new 32' butternut vertical in the
back
> yard!!! G A D!!
>
> So, I'm afraid I need to paint the damn thing, probably green so its not
so
> "bright" in her landscape. Any suggestions on a paint manufacturer? I've
> heard many paints contain metal particles which I would guess would be a
bad
> thing on the antenna and should be avoided?
>
> Thanks for any suggestions/experiences --
>
> 73...../ed
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>
>
> -----
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>



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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Fri Jul 27 03:12:45 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:12:45 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Freestanding Towers
Message-ID: <007d01c11641$ae30bec0$7e83c640@spelunk.sueno>


Steve:

     I'm not using a gin pole mainly because I don't own one or know where
to get one around here.  (Maybe that will scare a few sources out of the
weeds.)  Thanks for the suggestion, though.

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Maki <steve@oakcom.com>
To: towertalk@contesting.com <towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Freestanding Towers


>
>Gene Smar   AD3F wrote:
>
>>Nathaniel:
>>
>>     I, too, have no way to get a crane close to the tower site (OK -
it'll
>>cost me a lot of bucks, too.)  So I'm building my Trylon piece by piece
>>above me as I climb it.  I first fully assembled the bottom section with
the
>>base stubs and set it into the hole.  After the concrete cured (a couple
of
>>weeks at least) I hauled the three legs for the second section up on ropes
>>and bolted them in place.  Then I hauled up the angle pieces for that
>>section and bolted them in place between the tower legs.  Then I continued
>>with the legs for the next 8-foot section.  It's a pain but it can be
done.
>>It took me about 2 hours to assemble and straighten out each 8-foot
section.
>
>Why not assemble each section on the ground and hoist into place
>with a gin pole? I installed many Trylons that way in the 80s and
>it was a fairly smooth process. I seem to recall thinking, as I was
>installing the stuff, of ways to minimize my time in the air on those
>towers, as they are rather rough on the ankles & feet.
>
>73,
>--
>Steve K8LX
>
>
>-----
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From n0tt1@juno.com  Fri Jul 27 02:10:56 2001
From: n0tt1@juno.com (n0tt1@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 02:10:56 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wood posts
Message-ID: <20010727.021056.-386121.1.n0tt1@juno.com>


> Very true, Pete.  I now remember my father in-law who is a farmer 
> commenting 
> on how treated lumber is much more likely to warp.  He too 
> attributed it to 
> how it is daily sprayed in a somewhat haphazard manner.  Not all 
> treated 
> wood is the same.  I'm surprised yours lasted that long in the 
> ground.  It 
> depends somewhat on the soil.

FYI, the "real" Western Electric used to have a timber testing
facility near Orange Park, FL (and other sites)...tested all kinds
of wood poles and preservatives.  As I remember it, CCA
treated Southern Yellow Pine was the "winner". 

73,
Charlie, N0TT


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From w7ti@dslextreme.com  Fri Jul 27 03:25:24 2001
From: w7ti@dslextreme.com (Bill Turner)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 19:25:24 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice
In-Reply-To: <F70E8NpqhNPPzQT456U0000022d@hotmail.com>
References: <F70E8NpqhNPPzQT456U0000022d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <67k1mt0soqf522n6t14v3idde4n8p2pihg@4ax.com>


On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 01:31:43 +0000, Eddy Avila wrote:

>Well, the xyl is up in arms about my new 32' butternut vertical in the back 
>yard!!! G A D!!
>
>So, I'm afraid I need to paint the damn thing,

_________________________________________________________

So, what color does your XYL look good in?

Bill, W7TI


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From w5kp@swbell.net  Fri Jul 27 03:21:34 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:21:34 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice
References: <F70E8NpqhNPPzQT456U0000022d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001901c11642$dcaa85a0$7dd8da40@jkdesktop>


For what it's worth, on their website under Appendix F, Tech Manual for the
30M dipole, Cal-Av recommends 2 coats of Rustoleum Light Gray Primer,
#2081 - after cleaning with scotchbrite pads and MEK solvent.
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: Eddy Avila <k6sdw@hotmail.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 8:31 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice


>
> Well, the xyl is up in arms about my new 32' butternut vertical in the
back
> yard!!! G A D!!
>
> So, I'm afraid I need to paint the damn thing, probably green so its not
so
> "bright" in her landscape. Any suggestions on a paint manufacturer? I've
> heard many paints contain metal particles which I would guess would be a
bad
> thing on the antenna and should be avoided?
>
> Thanks for any suggestions/experiences --
>
> 73...../ed
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>
>
> -----
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>
>




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From n4zr@contesting.com  Fri Jul 27 03:47:35 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:47:35 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cascading antenna switches?
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010726224735.00a459b0@pop.abs.adelphia.net>


Is there any practical reason not to cascade remote antenna switches at HF?
 I'm considering that as one option to increase my antenna selections
without having to increase the number of hardline runs out to my antenna
field.

73, Pete N4ZR







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From eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com  Fri Jul 27 03:59:14 2001
From: eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com (Eugene Jensen)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:59:14 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice
In-Reply-To: <67k1mt0soqf522n6t14v3idde4n8p2pihg@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CPEFKNIOLPDOBHEPLMKMKENGCBAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>


I had a S9 of QRM from XYL over my new tower. Explain to her that she could
be X-XYL and me and new tower could be at a new QTH having QSO about late
X-XYL. Happy to report QRM is now 0 :-) Gene K2QWD

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Bill Turner
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 10:25 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice



On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 01:31:43 +0000, Eddy Avila wrote:

>Well, the xyl is up in arms about my new 32' butternut vertical in the back
>yard!!! G A D!!
>
>So, I'm afraid I need to paint the damn thing,

_________________________________________________________

So, what color does your XYL look good in?

Bill, W7TI


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From w5kp@swbell.net  Fri Jul 27 03:45:48 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:45:48 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Freestanding Towers
References: <007d01c11641$ae30bec0$7e83c640@spelunk.sueno>
Message-ID: <002501c11646$3ec98300$7dd8da40@jkdesktop>


Gene, I thought crane or boom rental would be an arm an a leg, too. But on
the advice of K7LXC I checked around town today, no problem getting a 92'
boom truck for $66 per hour, with no minimum. Time charged is door-to-door,
so you pay for their travel time. This is NOT the gargantuan 60' long
rip-up-your-yard crane-on-wheels thing, but instead looks like about a
meduim sized 5-ton or so truck with outriggers and a 92' reach hydraulic
boom. You've probably seen them lifting AC units onto rooftops of buildings
for HVAC companies, which is their main bread and butter. They will not do
the rigging, you have to do that. Their driver will only maneuver the truck
and operate the boom. But they will provide any length or number of straps
that you need for your lifts, and carry a variety of hooks. They will even
come out Saturday for $81 per hour vice $66, which I will take advantage of
because the extra $15  per hour for the 3 hours I expect to need them (maybe
less) is cheaper than me missing a full day's work. I was surprised at the
reasonable rates, and I intend to use them instead of endangering myself and
a batch of friends. I suppose they could set the entire 80' 45G at one shot,
if I had the nerve to try to lift the whole thing fully assembled by picking
it at the top, but I'll probably do it in two 40' sections, because I'm
scared of folding up my new 45G. This particular outfit does work for
several hams in the area, as it turns out, and they are very knowledgeable
and accomodating for ham tower requirements. I'd bet every town of any size
has similar outfits. Check with the local HVAC companies and see who they
contract for their routine lifts.
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>
To: Steve Maki <steve@oakcom.com>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Freestanding Towers


>
> Steve:
>
>      I'm not using a gin pole mainly because I don't own one or know where
> to get one around here.  (Maybe that will scare a few sources out of the
> weeds.)  Thanks for the suggestion, though.
>
> 73 de
> Gene Smar  AD3F
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Maki <steve@oakcom.com>
> To: towertalk@contesting.com <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Date: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Freestanding Towers
>
>
> >
> >Gene Smar   AD3F wrote:
> >
> >>Nathaniel:
> >>
> >>     I, too, have no way to get a crane close to the tower site (OK -
> it'll
> >>cost me a lot of bucks, too.)  So I'm building my Trylon piece by piece
> >>above me as I climb it.  I first fully assembled the bottom section with
> the
> >>base stubs and set it into the hole.  After the concrete cured (a couple
> of
> >>weeks at least) I hauled the three legs for the second section up on
ropes
> >>and bolted them in place.  Then I hauled up the angle pieces for that
> >>section and bolted them in place between the tower legs.  Then I
continued
> >>with the legs for the next 8-foot section.  It's a pain but it can be
> done.
> >>It took me about 2 hours to assemble and straighten out each 8-foot
> section.
> >
> >Why not assemble each section on the ground and hoist into place
> >with a gin pole? I installed many Trylons that way in the 80s and
> >it was a fairly smooth process. I seem to recall thinking, as I was
> >installing the stuff, of ways to minimize my time in the air on those
> >towers, as they are rather rough on the ankles & feet.
> >
> >73,
> >--
> >Steve K8LX
> >
> >
> >-----
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> >Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
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> >
>
>
>
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From wa2moe@doitnow.com  Fri Jul 27 05:01:25 2001
From: wa2moe@doitnow.com (Stu Greene)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:01:25 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice
In-Reply-To: <CPEFKNIOLPDOBHEPLMKMKENGCBAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>
References: <67k1mt0soqf522n6t14v3idde4n8p2pihg@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010726210049.00a90b10@pop3.doitnow.com>


At 10:59 PM 7/26/01 -0400, you wrote:

>I had a S9 of QRM from XYL over my new tower. Explain to her that she could
>be X-XYL and me and new tower could be at a new QTH having QSO about late
>X-XYL. Happy to report QRM is now 0 :-) Gene K2QWD

Is Loretta Bobbitt still around?



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From k5go@alltel.net  Fri Jul 27 06:02:22 2001
From: k5go@alltel.net (Stan Stockton)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 00:02:22 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wood posts
References: <200107261302.f6QD2XZ14301@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <002d01c11659$534955e0$269027a2@server>


Tom,

I have found that a good, easy to install, and cheap solution is to use
barbed wire fence posts ("T" Posts) for the first 4 foot or so and then use
the appropriate sized PVC (1.25" I think) that will fit tightly over the top
for the last 2-3 feet.  I then use a hacksaw and cut a slit in the top of
the PVC to hold the wire in place and allow it to be easily stretched
between the supports.  I am using some 18 gauge copper plated steel and can
get by with about one support every 100 foot or so.

Stan, K5GO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Rauch" <w8ji@akorn.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 7:58 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wood posts


>
> I'm planning on using pressure treated 2x4's to support some
> Beverages. I'll just poke some holes in the ground with my tractor's
> post hole digger attachment, and drop the 2x4's in.
>
> Does anyone have any tips on making the wood last longer, or will
> it be OK in direct contact with soil?? Will it last ten years or so?
> 73, Tom W8JI
> W8JI@contesting.com
>
>
> -----
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>




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From w4th@webtv.net  Fri Jul 27 10:50:18 2001
From: w4th@webtv.net (Tom Hix W4TH)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 04:50:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] finest tuners and switches
Message-ID: <19734-3B61395A-1980@storefull-107.iap.bryant.webtv.net>


The finest antenna tuners and switches made today....Bar NONE!
http://www.tomstubes.com
Inside and remote antenna switches for both coax and ladderline!
Common ground or independent ground on each position available for you
beverage antenna users. Will take at least 3kw.
Also High power manual and motorized antenna tuners.
Local and also remote antenna tuners
http://www.tomstubes.com



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From n4kg@juno.com  Fri Jul 27 12:41:22 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 05:41:22 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Freestanding Towers
Message-ID: <20010727.055754.-31751.2.N4KG@juno.com>


 "I suppose they could set the entire 80' 45G at one shot,
if I had the nerve to try to lift the whole thing fully assembled by
picking
it at the top, but I'll probably do it in two 40' sections, because I'm
scared of folding up my new 45G."  W5KP

One of the locals used a crane to install 130 ft of R45.
The first section was leveled and then he made 3 lifts
of 40 ft assemblies.  We attached 3 slings, one to each
leg, down through the center, to a single hook.  The 
sections hung perfectly vertical and were easy to install.

Tom  N4KG


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From n2mg@contesting.com  Fri Jul 27 12:45:21 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 27 Jul 2001 04:45:21 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice
Message-ID: <20010727114521.3715.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>


This situation prompted one of my answer choices at

http://www.eham.net/survey/

;-)

73 Mike N2MG
webmaster@eham.net

On Thu, 26 July 2001, Stu Greene wrote:

> 
> At 10:59 PM 7/26/01 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >I had a S9 of QRM from XYL over my new tower. Explain to her that she could
> >be X-XYL and me and new tower could be at a new QTH having QSO about late
> >X-XYL. Happy to report QRM is now 0 :-) Gene K2QWD
> 
> Is Loretta Bobbitt still around?
> 

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 


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From n2mg@contesting.com  Fri Jul 27 13:20:41 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 27 Jul 2001 05:20:41 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice
Message-ID: <20010727122041.20592.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>


Technical answer:
It probably won't take very long for the aluminum to get that nice, dull look, and become less visible (without paint) all on its own.

Political answer:
Painting it a dull color right now would be proactive on your part and would give the appearance that you at least care a little about your XYL's feelings (whether or not it actually hides anything).  Perception is a big thing!

73 Mike N2MG

On Thu, 26 July 2001, "FireBrick" wrote:

> 
> 
> may be easier to spray paint the landscaping an oxidized gray, it will blend
> in better.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eddy Avila" <k6sdw@hotmail.com>
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 8:31 PM
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice
> 
> 
> >
> > Well, the xyl is up in arms about my new 32' butternut vertical in the
> back
> > yard!!! G A D!!
> >
> > So, I'm afraid I need to paint the damn thing, probably green so its not
> so
> > "bright" in her landscape. Any suggestions on a paint manufacturer? I've
> > heard many paints contain metal particles which I would guess would be a
> bad
> > thing on the antenna and should be avoided?
> >
> > Thanks for any suggestions/experiences --
> >
> > 73...../ed
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
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> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
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________________________________________________
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http://www.peoplepc.com 


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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Fri Jul 27 13:54:53 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:54:53 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice
References: <20010727122041.20592.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <3B61649D.6760A638@gloryroad.net>


Actually black is a better "color". 

Phylistrand guys disappear.  They don't paint covert operation
helicopters black for no reason.

My reaction to a "no guys" edict is "no gals".  The XYL here knows we
have been married for 33 years AND I have had the hobby for 42 years.  

Seriously, phylistrand guys do disappear into almost any type of
background.

73 de Brian/K3KO

Mike Gilmer - N2MG wrote:
> 
> Technical answer:
> It probably won't take very long for the aluminum to get that nice, dull look, and become less visible (without paint) all on its own.
> 
> Political answer:
> Painting it a dull color right now would be proactive on your part and would give the appearance that you at least care a little about your XYL's feelings (whether or not it actually hides anything).  Perception is a big thing!
> 
> 73 Mike N2MG
> 
> On Thu, 26 July 2001, "FireBrick" wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > may be easier to spray paint the landscaping an oxidized gray, it will blend
> > in better.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Eddy Avila" <k6sdw@hotmail.com>
> > To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 8:31 PM
> > Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Well, the xyl is up in arms about my new 32' butternut vertical in the
> > back
> > > yard!!! G A D!!
> > >
> > > So, I'm afraid I need to paint the damn thing, probably green so its not
> > so
> > > "bright" in her landscape. Any suggestions on a paint manufacturer? I've
> > > heard many paints contain metal particles which I would guess would be a
> > bad
> > > thing on the antenna and should be avoided?
> > >
> > > Thanks for any suggestions/experiences --
> > >
> > > 73...../ed
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----
> > > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
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> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
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> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> 
> ________________________________________________
> PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart.
> http://www.peoplepc.com
> 
> -----
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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Fri Jul 27 15:03:20 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:03:20 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] What's Rohn 25 worth?
Message-ID: <1010627100323.KAA10129@gate.iterated.com>


On 7/27/01 12:15 AM, Mike Lazaroff K3AIR at k3air@arrl.net wrote:

>Can someone tell me what the Rohn 25 10-foot section and the Rohn 25 top
>section sell for now?  A friend has several sections he bought new and never
>put up.  He wants to sell them and I'm trying to determine what a reasonable
>offer would be.

TexasTowers <http://www.texastowers.com> lists Rohn 25G sections for $89. 
Which top section? A 25AG3 is $109, a 25AG4 is $139. 



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901



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From w7ti@dslextreme.com  Fri Jul 27 15:55:17 2001
From: w7ti@dslextreme.com (Bill Turner)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 07:55:17 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice
In-Reply-To: <3B61649D.6760A638@gloryroad.net>
References: <20010727122041.20592.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net> <3B61649D.6760A638@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <p203mt47r0p3hkul4ggrq2ce807cj2dsl2@4ax.com>


On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:54:53 +0000, alsopb wrote:

>My reaction to a "no guys" edict is "no gals". 

_________________________________________________________

You might subtly point out there are plenty of young ladies out there
who would be pleased to have their husband at home playing with his toys
instead of out at some bar playing with some other toys.

A matter of perspective.

Bill, W7TI


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From k1my@qwest.net  Fri Jul 27 16:29:30 2001
From: k1my@qwest.net (Bruce Makas)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:29:30 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] T2X repairs
Message-ID: <EOEFIGFENHCAGPPJFHAHAECECHAA.k1my@qwest.net>


I need to get my T2X serviced before I put it back up in the air. Anyone
with real life experiance & recommendations of who does good work?

Bruce K1MY

Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona



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From n2mg@contesting.com  Fri Jul 27 17:09:02 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 27 Jul 2001 09:09:02 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: T2X repairs
Message-ID: <20010727160902.7744.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>


Bruce,

Check out the Reviews (Repair Service) on 
http://www.eham.net

73 Mike N2MG
webmaster@eham.net

Bruce wrote:
> I need to get my T2X serviced before I put it back 
> up in the air. Anyone with real life experiance & 
> recommendations of who does good work?

>   Bruce K1MY

Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 


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From kq2m@mags.net  Fri Jul 27 17:26:10 2001
From: kq2m@mags.net (Robert Shohet)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:26:10 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] T2X repairs
References: <EOEFIGFENHCAGPPJFHAHAECECHAA.k1my@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <000901c116b8$d9335ca0$17b4f9d0@dchm7>


Bruce,

I recommend Joe Brue, K3NM - his e-mail address is n3mkz@epix.net

Excellent quality work at very reasonable prices.

Bob KQ2M

> I need to get my T2X serviced before I put it back up in the air. Anyone
> with real life experiance & recommendations of who does good work?
> 
> Bruce K1MY
> 
> Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona
> 




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From 74237.2073@compuserve.com  Fri Jul 27 17:37:12 2001
From: 74237.2073@compuserve.com (James W. Fisher, Jr.)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:37:12 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Taming an 80 m beam
Message-ID: <200107271237_MC3-DAA3-1EDE@compuserve.com>


Chris,

I've had my adventures with big antennas too.  The tip of the iceberg of my
adventures is covered in the Force 12 coverage and pix of stacks:
http://force12inc.com/F12-STACKS.HTM

Since I have successfully tuned (or had help tuning) both the EF-140-style
40Ms and the new N-series, I can report that tuning the N-series is a
breeze as to resonance and SWR.  I switched from the earlier style for
greater bandwidth and apparent mechanical strength (so far, so good).  I
had to take everything down anyway for a Trylon tower switchout (long and
bitter story  which left me out of at least one whole year's real
contesting and short the dollar equivalent of the price of one of my Alpha
87As, as I plan to cover in spellbinding detail in a future CQ Contest
article), so I converted the C51XR-Hs to C51XRNs and considered themodest
work very worthwhile.  Support from F12 in the changeover was superb and
timely.

I also have four of the EF-180BV-D type verticals in my 4sq, and I must say
I haven't really had a problem tuning them.  This was  done numerous times
for phone vs. cw contests until I got the 4-position relays (which give me
OK dump returns in CW and DX phone segments), and with the aid of an Autek
RF-1 seemed to go quite by the book.

73,

Jim, VE1JF



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From Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com  Fri Jul 27 17:48:40 2001
From: Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com (Kenneth Hirschberg)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:48:40 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice
References: <F70E8NpqhNPPzQT456U0000022d@hotmail.com> <001901c11642$dcaa85a0$7dd8da40@jkdesktop>
Message-ID: <000e01c116bb$fe87e9a0$8467530c@ken>


Hello, all -

Yes, the primer referenced below has proven to be quite good for the
purpose.  For blending in with foliage, we have had very good experience
covering the primer with Krylon 8143.  It a non-reflective, flat paint
intended for concealing vehicles, etc.  The color is "olive drab", which
will come as no surprise to those who have served in the army.  The Rustoeum
primer has been easy to find at Home Depot, and the Krylon camouflage has
been easy to find at Ace Hardware.

Vy 73, Ken Hirschberg,
President, CAL-AV

----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Kincade" <w5kp@swbell.net>
To: <k6sdw@arrl.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice


>
> For what it's worth, on their website under Appendix F, Tech Manual for
the
> 30M dipole, Cal-Av recommends 2 coats of Rustoleum Light Gray Primer,
> #2081 - after cleaning with scotchbrite pads and MEK solvent.
> 73, Jerry W5KP
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eddy Avila <k6sdw@hotmail.com>
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 8:31 PM
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antennas, need advice
>
>
> >
> > Well, the xyl is up in arms about my new 32' butternut vertical in the
> back
> > yard!!! G A D!!
> >
> > So, I'm afraid I need to paint the damn thing, probably green so its not
> so
> > "bright" in her landscape. Any suggestions on a paint manufacturer? I've
> > heard many paints contain metal particles which I would guess would be a
> bad
> > thing on the antenna and should be avoided?
> >
> > Thanks for any suggestions/experiences --
> >
> > 73...../ed
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
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> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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>
>



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From W8JI@contesting.com  Fri Jul 27 17:48:01 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:48:01 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] finest tuners and switches
In-Reply-To: <19734-3B61395A-1980@storefull-107.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <200107271652.f6RGqHZ30437@paris.akorn.net>


Hi Tom, 

> The finest antenna tuners and switches made today....Bar NONE!
> http://www.tomstubes.com

Inside photos would be nice. I don't know why every manufacturer 
doesn't do that. Is this tuner built with new parts, surplus parts, or 
used parts? It looks sorta surplus, with the big knife switch and all. 

Tuners are one of the toughest things to build, that's probably why 
there isn't really any ideal tuner. It just depends on what the end 
user is doing with the tuner.

For example, with an L network using the component values listed 
for that tuner the lowest pure resistance matched on 160 meters is 
either 37.7 or 25 ohms, depending on how the input transformer 
circuit is configured. A conventional "T"  has a much wider 
matching range, especially with low impedances. That's why they 
are so popular and rare. Unfortunately most T's use small value 
capacitors and poor inductors.  

As another example, moving the balun to the input does not 
improve balance. That is a popular but incorrect myth. I see some 
of our handbooks even repeat that myth.

In order to improve balance by moving the balun, the tuner must 
have at least two ganged capacitors and two ganged inductors that 
are grounded to the chassis at the middle. Even then, it only 
improves balance when the load is absolutely perfect. It is actually 
better to use a choke balun on the output in almost every other 
case, as amazing as that might seem!


73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 


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From Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net  Fri Jul 27 18:08:03 2001
From: Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net (Kevin Hemsley)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:08:03 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Buying equipment on eBay
Message-ID: <1af801c116be$b255a880$d5cbe4cc@kevin>


For any of you who are looking to buy gear on eBay, here is a guide to
phrases you will find on eBay describing amateur radio equipment, and their
real Translation.

       eBay: This rig puts out a BIG signal.
Translation: It's 50 kHz wide.

       eBay: This is a really good CW rig.
Translation: It doesn't work on SSB.

       eBay: I'd keep this baby, but my wife is making me clean everything
out.
Translation: I finally got around to giving this thing the proverbial
heave-ho.

       eBay: This is a really good SSB rig.
Translation: It doesn't work on CW.

       eBay: It comes with  the original box.
Translation: Just brush out the kitty litter.

       eBay: This is a really good rig.
Translation: It doesn't work on CW or SSB.

       eBay: The transmitter is outstanding.
Translation: It doesn't receive.

       eBay: The receiver is really hot.
Translation: It doesn't transmit.

       eBay: This rig is really hot.
Translation: It's stolen.

       eBay: It seems to be a vintage regenerative type.
Translation: It oscillates.

       eBay: I just retubed it.
Translation: Got 'em from questionable used tube stock.

       eBay: I just aligned it.
Translation: The slugs on the transformers are jammed.

       eBay: I don't know if it works.
Translation: It doesn't work, probably never has.

       eBay: It doesn't chirp.
Translation: it doesn't chirp because it doesn't transmit.

       eBay: The audio sounds great.
Translation: The 120Hz buzz is faithfully reproduced.

       eBay: I just had it serviced.
Translation: I sprayed WD-40 over all the wiring.

       eBay: Better "buy it now", cause it won't last.
Translation: No translation needed.

       eBay: It works at full power.
Translation: It sucks all it can from the wall.

       eBay: This rig has wide frequency coverage.
Translation: It drifts up and down and out of band.

       eBay: Frequency stability is great.
Translation: The VFO doesn't work - you'll have to use crystals.

       eBay: Real popular rig in its day.
Translation: There were whole HF nets on the repair and maintenance
problems.

       eBay: QST gave this one a really great review.
Translation: The language broke new ground for profanity.

       eBay: It might need a bit of tweaking.
Translation: Marconi himself couldn't fix it, much less align it.

       eBay: It was used in government service.
Translation: It was stored outdoors on a wooden pallet.

       eBay: The dial drive may need lubricating.
Translation: The gears are stripped and the setscrews frozen.

       eBay: I plugged it in to check that it lights up.
Translation: The light came from the two foot high flames.

       eBay: I'm selling it because I have two of them.
Translation: I'm getting rid of my parts radio.

       eBay: You won't find one at a better price.
Translation: Better from the point of view of the seller.

       eBay: This is a collector's item.
Translation: The manufacturer just went belly up and won't honor the
warranty.

       eBay: It came from an estate sale.
Translation: If you have any problem take it up with the deceased owner.

       eBay: It worked last time I used it.
Translation: if it still worked I'd still be using it.

       eBay: The only lightning damage was a fuse.
Translation: The only lightning damage I recognized was a fuse.

       eBay: I have the _______ somewhere I'll send it to you.
Translation: you'll never see the _______.

       eBay: I'll pay for the shipping.
Translation: I'll do anything to unload this boat anchor.

       eBay: It works ok on 80 meters.
Translation: It had some parasitics but I got in and really messed it up and
now I want to unload it.

       eBay: The tubes used by this rig are worth the asking price.
Translation: The rig uses a rare 7360 beam deflection tube for a balanced
modulator, but it's blown and you'll spend $80 to get a new one.

       eBay: This is the rig of my dreams.
Translation: I really wanted one of these as a kid, but now I've got to let
it go. As I've gotten older, I've learned what a hunka junk it is.

       eBay: The signal quality of this rig was easily recognizable in its
day.
Translation: The high distortion and bad audio quickly identified this rig.

       eBay: This rig will bring back the feelings and atmosphere of vintage
ham gear.
Translation: The bypass capacitors to the AC line put enough voltage on the
chassis to give you a shock in the lips through the microphone, and it
smokes so bad when you turn it on that you'll probably start coughing and
wheezing.


Thanks,
          Kevin
------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Hemsley
kev@ida.net
KB7TYA



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From =?Windows-1252?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=" <tonno.vahk@mail.ee  Fri Jul 27 17:05:49 2001
From: =?Windows-1252?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=" <tonno.vahk@mail.ee (=?Windows-1252?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:05:49 +0300
Subject: [TowerTalk] The best stacking distance for long-boom yagis - 0.5 wavelength!!
References: <EOEFIGFENHCAGPPJFHAHAECECHAA.k1my@qwest.net> <000901c116b8$d9335ca0$17b4f9d0@dchm7>
Message-ID: <007b01c116b6$010ef160$0adb2fd4@comtrade.ee>


I have done a lot of modelling and also field testing and found out that it
is possible or even favourable to stack long boom 10m and 15m yagis only 0.5
wl apart!

I hope you can confirm or argue with me!

Especially it concerns OWA designs (5 to 7 elements) where my modelling
results with AO show that stacking them by 5-6 m on 10m and 7.5-8m on 15m
gives the best pattern and in most of the cases also the highest gain!!! The
second best stacking distance is roughly twice as much - 1 wl.

1 wl distance yields higher gain for the stack of 2 yagis only after the
higher antenna is raised up to 2 wl or more and even then by maximum 0.5 db
as far as we remain in practical heights. In free space though the gain is
approx. 1db more for 1wl than for 0.5 wl.

Based on my results I would advice anybody considering a 2-stack of OWA long
boom yagis at a hight of less than 2 wl to stack them 0.5 wl apart.
Especially that holds true for the upper antenna at 1.5 wl - then place the
second at 1.0 wl and you have an awesome pattern and best gain.

That is contrary to general perception that you don't stack yagis less than
0.7 wl (for long booms at least) and I wonder if AO is wrong or rather most
of the suggestions are based on free space modelling and that is not the
same as above ground! As far as most of the Yagi optimizer programs are not
capable of modelling stack above ground and only in free space I guess many
guys have come to wrong conclusions. It is quite some effort to create AO
files for yagis with correct tapering and to model the stacks!

I modelled following 15m designs: 5el owa 38' boom, 6 el owa 40' boom, 6el
owa 48' boom (the famous NW3Z beam) and w6qhs 6el 35' boom.

The pattern is smilar for all. When you go wider than 0.5-0.6wl you start to
have a growing fat lobe right up at 90 degrees. This is very irritating and
eats up a lot of radiation energy. The worst pattern (highest 90 degree
lobe) is at about 0.75wl and it is also the point of the lowest gain for the
stack. So the higher antenna at about 2wl we have about the same gain for
0.5wl and 1wl stacks. But pattern-wise it is different. Both have the main
lobe at about 7-8 degrees and it is 18-19 dbi above average ground. 0.5wl
has the second lobe at 22 degrees and it is about 4-5 db down and all the
other lobes are 20-30 down. 1wl has the 2nd lobe at 50 degrees and about 10
db down, all the other lobes are 15-30 db down.

Only the 48' boom owa and w6qhs had a small gain advantage for 1wl but
pattern-wise I would choose 0.5wl any time, especially for contesting where
I don't care so much about F/B but am interested in the 2nd lobe at 22
degrees for sure!! And most of the stacks are for contesting.

In my mind with 38' and 40' boom OWAs there is no question and I would stack
them 0.5wl any time. NW3Z 48' boom is an extreme example. The higher beam at
30m (100') the gain of the stack at 7-8 degrees is: lower at 22m (72') -
18.63 dbi and lower at 15m (50') - 18.86 dbi. So only 0.2 db difference. I
would select the pattern of 0.5wl!! Putting the lower one at 72' lets you
add another beam at 50' and rise your gain to 19.36 dbi with remarkable
pattern and F/B!!

Still I see many guys stacking them at 0.75 and even 1.25 wl, the latter
gives 18.02 dbi and is a serious crime against the pattern.

The close spacing does not mess up the swr curve, impedances remain the
same!!! The stack can be optimized for best swr and F/B or course if it is a
rotating tower and antennas are fixed.

We put up stacks of 2 40' boom 15m OWAs and 2 30' boom 6 el 10m OWAs at
ES5Q/ES9C QTH. Both stacks are with 0.5 wl spacing. 10m tower is 56' high
and 15m tower 92' high. Both upper antennas rotate and lower ones are fixed
to US. Both stacks are "killers" as people like to say:). US stations report
on average 2 S-units advantage to stack vs. upper beam and 3 S-units vs.
lower beam!!!! Hard to believe but I have run enough A-B-C tests to be sure
of that!! The swr curves of the stacks are perfect.

At first we put up 15m stack at 80' and 45'. It simply did not work. Stack w
as as strong as the higher beam in most cases. After rising it to 92' and
67' it really started to play!

Another advantage of having the lower beam higher is that it is clear from
obstructions because should you face a little hill in front you might be
better off with single upper antenna than a stack where the performance of
the lower antenna is nulled by the obstruction.

I guess I am not the only one with similar ideas as I noticed OK guys also
stacking their OWA yagis very close.

I hope OK1RI and other guys who have experimented with OWAs and done
computer modelling will either challenge my thoughts or prove them.

I have also following questions:

1.How bad is the exsistence of the high fat lobe at 90 degrees? Does it
effect also near field - other antennas on the tower??? Does it cause
interference?

2. Can I trust AO on that? I have found that there is almost perfect match
between AO results and field measurement as far as I can go (impedances,
SWR, etc.)
so I would trust it.

3. Are there any disadvantages when closely stacking beams that I have
failed to notice?








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From =?Windows-1252?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=" <tonno.vahk@mail.ee  Fri Jul 27 17:15:39 2001
From: =?Windows-1252?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=" <tonno.vahk@mail.ee (=?Windows-1252?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:15:39 +0300
Subject: [TowerTalk] The best stacking distance for long-boom yagis - 0.5 wavelength!!
References: <EOEFIGFENHCAGPPJFHAHAECECHAA.k1my@qwest.net> <000901c116b8$d9335ca0$17b4f9d0@dchm7> <007b01c116b6$010ef160$0adb2fd4@comtrade.ee>
Message-ID: <008801c116b7$6088f860$0adb2fd4@comtrade.ee>


Forgot to sign the previous mail:)

Tonno
ES5TV
tonno.vahk@mail.ee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tõnno Vähk" <tonno.vahk@mail.ee>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 7:05 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] The best stacking distance for long-boom yagis - 0.5
wavelength!!


>
> I have done a lot of modelling and also field testing and found out that
it
> is possible or even favourable to stack long boom 10m and 15m yagis only
0.5
> wl apart!
>
> I hope you can confirm or argue with me!
>
> Especially it concerns OWA designs (5 to 7 elements) where my modelling
> results with AO show that stacking them by 5-6 m on 10m and 7.5-8m on 15m
> gives the best pattern and in most of the cases also the highest gain!!!
The
> second best stacking distance is roughly twice as much - 1 wl.
>
> 1 wl distance yields higher gain for the stack of 2 yagis only after the
> higher antenna is raised up to 2 wl or more and even then by maximum 0.5
db
> as far as we remain in practical heights. In free space though the gain is
> approx. 1db more for 1wl than for 0.5 wl.
>
> Based on my results I would advice anybody considering a 2-stack of OWA
long
> boom yagis at a hight of less than 2 wl to stack them 0.5 wl apart.
> Especially that holds true for the upper antenna at 1.5 wl - then place
the
> second at 1.0 wl and you have an awesome pattern and best gain.
>
> That is contrary to general perception that you don't stack yagis less
than
> 0.7 wl (for long booms at least) and I wonder if AO is wrong or rather
most
> of the suggestions are based on free space modelling and that is not the
> same as above ground! As far as most of the Yagi optimizer programs are
not
> capable of modelling stack above ground and only in free space I guess
many
> guys have come to wrong conclusions. It is quite some effort to create AO
> files for yagis with correct tapering and to model the stacks!
>
> I modelled following 15m designs: 5el owa 38' boom, 6 el owa 40' boom, 6el
> owa 48' boom (the famous NW3Z beam) and w6qhs 6el 35' boom.
>
> The pattern is smilar for all. When you go wider than 0.5-0.6wl you start
to
> have a growing fat lobe right up at 90 degrees. This is very irritating
and
> eats up a lot of radiation energy. The worst pattern (highest 90 degree
> lobe) is at about 0.75wl and it is also the point of the lowest gain for
the
> stack. So the higher antenna at about 2wl we have about the same gain for
> 0.5wl and 1wl stacks. But pattern-wise it is different. Both have the main
> lobe at about 7-8 degrees and it is 18-19 dbi above average ground. 0.5wl
> has the second lobe at 22 degrees and it is about 4-5 db down and all the
> other lobes are 20-30 down. 1wl has the 2nd lobe at 50 degrees and about
10
> db down, all the other lobes are 15-30 db down.
>
> Only the 48' boom owa and w6qhs had a small gain advantage for 1wl but
> pattern-wise I would choose 0.5wl any time, especially for contesting
where
> I don't care so much about F/B but am interested in the 2nd lobe at 22
> degrees for sure!! And most of the stacks are for contesting.
>
> In my mind with 38' and 40' boom OWAs there is no question and I would
stack
> them 0.5wl any time. NW3Z 48' boom is an extreme example. The higher beam
at
> 30m (100') the gain of the stack at 7-8 degrees is: lower at 22m (72') -
> 18.63 dbi and lower at 15m (50') - 18.86 dbi. So only 0.2 db difference. I
> would select the pattern of 0.5wl!! Putting the lower one at 72' lets you
> add another beam at 50' and rise your gain to 19.36 dbi with remarkable
> pattern and F/B!!
>
> Still I see many guys stacking them at 0.75 and even 1.25 wl, the latter
> gives 18.02 dbi and is a serious crime against the pattern.
>
> The close spacing does not mess up the swr curve, impedances remain the
> same!!! The stack can be optimized for best swr and F/B or course if it is
a
> rotating tower and antennas are fixed.
>
> We put up stacks of 2 40' boom 15m OWAs and 2 30' boom 6 el 10m OWAs at
> ES5Q/ES9C QTH. Both stacks are with 0.5 wl spacing. 10m tower is 56' high
> and 15m tower 92' high. Both upper antennas rotate and lower ones are
fixed
> to US. Both stacks are "killers" as people like to say:). US stations
report
> on average 2 S-units advantage to stack vs. upper beam and 3 S-units vs.
> lower beam!!!! Hard to believe but I have run enough A-B-C tests to be
sure
> of that!! The swr curves of the stacks are perfect.
>
> At first we put up 15m stack at 80' and 45'. It simply did not work. Stack
w
> as as strong as the higher beam in most cases. After rising it to 92' and
> 67' it really started to play!
>
> Another advantage of having the lower beam higher is that it is clear from
> obstructions because should you face a little hill in front you might be
> better off with single upper antenna than a stack where the performance of
> the lower antenna is nulled by the obstruction.
>
> I guess I am not the only one with similar ideas as I noticed OK guys also
> stacking their OWA yagis very close.
>
> I hope OK1RI and other guys who have experimented with OWAs and done
> computer modelling will either challenge my thoughts or prove them.
>
> I have also following questions:
>
> 1.How bad is the exsistence of the high fat lobe at 90 degrees? Does it
> effect also near field - other antennas on the tower??? Does it cause
> interference?
>
> 2. Can I trust AO on that? I have found that there is almost perfect match
> between AO results and field measurement as far as I can go (impedances,
> SWR, etc.)
> so I would trust it.
>
> 3. Are there any disadvantages when closely stacking beams that I have
> failed to notice?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----
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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Fri Jul 27 18:26:58 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:26:58 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] T2X repairs
Message-ID: <004801c116c1$60dd4e60$3683c640@spelunk.sueno>


Without a doubt - Norm's Rotor Service.  Not sure of web address but his
e-mail is RotorNorm@aol.com (last time I wrote to him.)  I have no business
connection with him, but we're both members of PVRC.

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Makas <k1my@qwest.net>
To: towertalk submital <towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Friday, July 27, 2001 11:53 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] T2X repairs


>
>I need to get my T2X serviced before I put it back up in the air. Anyone
>with real life experiance & recommendations of who does good work?
>
>Bruce K1MY
>
>Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona
>
>
>
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From kq2m@mags.net  Fri Jul 27 18:47:00 2001
From: kq2m@mags.net (Robert Shohet)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:47:00 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
Message-ID: <002101c116c4$240b3580$17b4f9d0@dchm7>


I have been told that there is a formula for the optimum stacking distance
of similar antennas that is based on the antenna boom lengths and other
factors.

If anyone is familiar with this, could they please post the formula?

Tnx & 73

Bob KQ2M




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From FireBrick" <w9ol@billnjudy.com  Fri Jul 27 18:43:10 2001
From: FireBrick" <w9ol@billnjudy.com (FireBrick)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:43:10 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] painting and camoflage
Message-ID: <00a101c116c3$9b24d280$0201a8c0@billnjudy>


I purchased a military surplus camouflaged antenna a couple of years ago.
Placed it in the garage when I got home and haven't been able to find that
sucker since!


------------------------------------------------------------
I don't jog, it makes the ice jump right out of my glass.
------------------------------------------------------------

Bill H. in Chicagoland
w9ol@billnjudy.com




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From =?iso-8859-1?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=" <tonno.vahk@mail.ee  Fri Jul 27 17:47:45 2001
From: =?iso-8859-1?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=" <tonno.vahk@mail.ee (=?iso-8859-1?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:47:45 +0300
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
References: <002101c116c4$240b3580$17b4f9d0@dchm7>
Message-ID: <00b801c116bb$dc6e5c00$0adb2fd4@comtrade.ee>



Some advice to take the effective boom length of the antenna in wavelengths
and take the square root of it.  This is the optimum stacking distance of
your beams in Wavelength.

I think it is way too general not taking into account heights and antenna
specifications.

You can only find the answer with modelling software.

Tonno
ES5TV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Shohet" <kq2m@mags.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 8:47 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance


>
> I have been told that there is a formula for the optimum stacking distance
> of similar antennas that is based on the antenna boom lengths and other
> factors.
>
> If anyone is familiar with this, could they please post the formula?
>
> Tnx & 73
>
> Bob KQ2M
>
>
>
>
> -----
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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Fri Jul 27 18:48:53 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:48:53 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
References: <002101c116c4$240b3580$17b4f9d0@dchm7>
Message-ID: <3B61A985.7728184E@gloryroad.net>


wx0b'S presentation to the PVRC has the following rules of thumb.

1 wl booms space 1 wl
.75 wl booms space .87 wl
.5 wl booms space .707 wl
.25 wl booms space .5 wl.

The following note is also attached: "short booms are very critical,
model it to be certain.

For what it is worth, I had independently modeled a pair of 3 element
CC TEN-3 beams in EZNEC.  The top at 85'.  It turned out that the best
spacing was about 18'-very close to the above table.

73 de Brian/K3KO


Robert Shohet wrote:
> 
> I have been told that there is a formula for the optimum stacking distance
> of similar antennas that is based on the antenna boom lengths and other
> factors.
> 
> If anyone is familiar with this, could they please post the formula?
> 
> Tnx & 73
> 
> Bob KQ2M
> 
> -----
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From k3hx@juno.com  Fri Jul 27 19:05:23 2001
From: k3hx@juno.com (tttt ccccc)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:05:23 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Buying equipment on eBay
Message-ID: <20010727.140532.-429347.6.k3hx@juno.com>


OM,

A slight variation is the Hamfest Translation Guide:

	
          		Worked the last time I tried it.

Translation:	In the autumn of 1978, right before I spilled a beer into
it.

		
		Just back from the factory

Translation:	They couldn't fix it, either.


		Don't know if it works or not.

Translation:	Broke


		Needs a 7Y6NTR tube but they are easy to get.

Translation: All it takes is several hundred dollars to get one of the 5
remaining.


		Rare

Translation: Only 710,000 made.



		Modifications done pro---fessionally.

Translation: At SCREAMIN' STEVEN'S CB Shack. 


		Collector's Item

Translation: If I don't unload this junk, the stuff goes to the trash
collector.


		Comes with original box.

Translation: And this makes it work better how?


		Late serial number.

Translation: Surreal would be more accurate.


		Priced as marked.  (or "firm")

Translation:Seller has been off his medications for a few days and
labours
		under delusions.


		If it doesn't go today, I'm putting it on eBay.

Translation: If I don't find a sucker for this junk here, Barnum's Law
dictates I'll find
		one on eBay.
		

		I'll send you the manual, accessory plugs and the CW filter as soon
		as I get back home.

Translation:Right after the pyramids turn into Jello.


		Removed from working equipment.

Translation:This piece is the reason the equipment stopped working.


		First quality military surplus.

Translation:During the Korean Conflict, this was first quality from the
lowest
		bidder.

 
		Recently rebuilt.

Translation: And it still does not work.


		Very stable.

Translation: Like unto a drunk standing up in a hammock.


		Recent calibration sticker.

Translation: Put it on myself this morning.



73

Tim  K3HX

CW Elitist

QRP Snob

Old Fart

20 WPM Extra		


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From carmine1@home.com  Fri Jul 27 19:07:06 2001
From: carmine1@home.com (Carmine Fiorello)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:07:06 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] LM 470 for sale
Message-ID: <3B61ADCA.4156F3DB@home.com>


I have a good condition (never used) LM 470 crank-up tower that is
approximately 3 years old (older style LM 470). It was shipped to me by
mistake by the Will Burt Co. last March. Apparently, it was left over
from the old stock when they purchased the Visalia faculty. 

For sale: 

LM 470 tower with electric motor/winch (motor/winch are new)
Tilt-over fixture and hardware for LM 470
Coax stand-off arms (set of four)
Thrust bearing

Best reasonable price for the lot.

I have the tower placed on a dolly in my backyard and buyer would have
to pick up the tower from my qth (San Juan Capistrano--70 miles north of
San Diego). I don't want this tower because I ordered a new  style LM
470 and am waiting for it to arrive from Will Burt.

If interested, call me at (949) 493-4916 and ask for Carmine or E Mail
me through this reflector.

I believe that the motor assembly was installed sometime last year
before the move back east and the tower was part of the transferred
goods to the new Ohio faculty. Will Burt does not want the tower back
(their model being manufactured is different) so I am sitting on
something I would like to sell! Unfortunately, I do not have the base
to go with this tower. I believe though bases are being manufactured
somewhere back east. The base has a 23" footprint.

Thank you

Carmine
WK6C


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From n3rr@erols.com  Fri Jul 27 19:14:45 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:14:45 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] T2X repairs
In-Reply-To: <EOEFIGFENHCAGPPJFHAHAECECHAA.k1my@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPGEGMCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>


Norm's Rotor Service is excellent.
http://www.rotorservice.com/

5263 Agro Drive 
Frederick, Maryland 21703 
(301) 874-5885 

Bill, N3RR
(Not affiliated with Norm's Rotor Service)



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Makas
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 11:30 AM
To: towertalk submital
Subject: [TowerTalk] T2X repairs



I need to get my T2X serviced before I put it back up in the air. Anyone
with real life experiance & recommendations of who does good work?

Bruce K1MY

Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona



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From wd4ngb@qsl.net  Thu Jul 26 19:25:22 2001
From: wd4ngb@qsl.net (Bruce)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:25:22 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] painting and camoflage
References: <00a101c116c3$9b24d280$0201a8c0@billnjudy>
Message-ID: <3B606091.2F96CE91@qsl.net>


You must use care with this stuff. I live near Ft Campbell KY, and a few 
years ago they painted the 101st Airborne Museum with this camouflage paint.
The director has to turn in a quarterly report to the post HQ, and after 
only 6 months, they decided to repaint the museum. Seems that too many 
people could not easily find it when the camouflage paint was used.

This is turning out to be a slow Summer :))



FireBrick wrote:
> 
> I purchased a military surplus camouflaged antenna a couple of years ago.
> Placed it in the garage when I got home and haven't been able to find that
> sucker since!
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> I don't jog, it makes the ice jump right out of my glass.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Bill H. in Chicagoland
> w9ol@billnjudy.com
> 
> -----
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-- 
--------------------------------------------------
Bruce Richards / WD4NGB /E30GA team leader/ ex HL9JV               
DX Page http://www.qsl.net/wd4ngb
50 Miles North West of Nashville Tn             

***** Eritrea DX-pedition *********** 
http://www.qsl.net/eritrea/e3.htm


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From n3rr@erols.com  Fri Jul 27 19:26:34 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:26:34 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
In-Reply-To: <002101c116c4$240b3580$17b4f9d0@dchm7>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPOEGMCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>


Let me just say that anyone considering a stack of long boom (or other
length boom) Yagis
should define his/her requirements first, then model the antennas and the
stack and then, iterate the model to achieve the requirements, all *before*
they install the system.

Note that this suggestion does not include asking a newsgroup/list for a
"rule-of-thumb".

What is the "optimum" stacking distance for one ham, may or may not be the
optimum stacking distance for another who may have different requirements
due to geographic location, contest operation vs DXing, tower height, or any
other factors that will be taken into account as they (you) create the
requirements document.

A word to the wise ham!

73,

Bill, N3RR

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Robert Shohet
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 1:47 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance



I have been told that there is a formula for the optimum stacking distance
of similar antennas that is based on the antenna boom lengths and other
factors.

If anyone is familiar with this, could they please post the formula?

Tnx & 73

Bob KQ2M




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From kq2m@mags.net  Fri Jul 27 19:52:15 2001
From: kq2m@mags.net (Robert Shohet)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:52:15 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
References: <002101c116c4$240b3580$17b4f9d0@dchm7> <3B61A985.7728184E@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <005301c116cd$41849800$17b4f9d0@dchm7>


That's helpful, but I guess it assumes that the elements are at the ends of
the boom.  What happens if the elements are several feet in from the ends?
Do we still use the boomlength as expressed in wavelengths, or do we use the
actual length between the elements?

Tnx & 73

Bob KQ2M



> wx0b'S presentation to the PVRC has the following rules of thumb.
>
> 1 wl booms space 1 wl
> .75 wl booms space .87 wl
> .5 wl booms space .707 wl
> .25 wl booms space .5 wl.
>
> The following note is also attached: "short booms are very critical,
> model it to be certain.




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From howk2@hotmail.com  Fri Jul 27 19:59:21 2001
From: howk2@hotmail.com (Howard Klein)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:59:21
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wood posts
Message-ID: <F2634gGtLdLnEF9S9Ie00008534@hotmail.com>


I have tried various wooden posts and rebar  but find 4 ft fence posts with 
10 ft.long, 1.5 inch dia., sked 40 PVC over them is most durable and 
certainly a snap to maintain. I space them 50 ft apart for twinline Beverage 
with no guys.

Howard..K2HK



>
>
>I have found that a good, easy to install, and cheap solution is to use
>barbed wire fence posts ("T" Posts) for the first 4 foot or so and then use
>the appropriate sized PVC (1.25" I think) that will fit tightly over the 
>top
>for the last 2-3 feet.  I then use a hacksaw and cut a slit in the top of
>the PVC to hold the wire in place and allow it to be easily stretched
>between the supports.  I am using some 18 gauge copper plated steel and can
>get by with about one support every 100 foot or so.
>
>Stan, K5GO


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



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From jirka@jimaz.cz  Fri Jul 27 21:00:03 2001
From: jirka@jimaz.cz (Jiri Sanda)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 22:00:03 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] The best stacking distance for long-boom yagis - 0.5 wavelength!!
In-Reply-To: <008801c116b7$6088f860$0adb2fd4@comtrade.ee>
Message-ID: <NBBBKAIBCJDDIHOEIBGDOEIOEGAA.jirka@jimaz.cz>


Hello all,

since I was directly asked I will come with some answer - or my perception
of the problem.

1.It is important to answer the question why to stack the antennas. There is
a bunch of answers:

On VHF to obtain more gain for "direct" propagation - not our case, here you
want to stack the antennas for maximum forward gain - i.e. the rules
pronounced by Bill are more-less correct - a little over 1 WL for 1WL boom.
etc. There is quite interesting study on this topic on SM5BSZ page and of
course the "BIBLE" of antenna modeling - www.cebik.com

2.ON HF I am sure that this is only one - less important point, what you
really want to do is to cover as many vertical angles as possible. To
achieve this you need to have the antennas closer.
Again there is not an easy answer. I do not believe modeling will give you
real answers since:
a. I do not know - may be someone much smarter then myself knows - in which
angles in a given period of time you want to radiate !?!?!?
Observation from this year IARU - I was running OL1HQ on 20m SSB. Around my
sunrise there was a peculiar propagation - As I have said here several
times - we do have 2 more-less similar antennas - 6Y (16m boom) + 5Y (14.5m
boom) the first one in 24m, the other on other tower in 52m. The propagation
was so that it looked like as a completely different frequencies. The W6/7+
KH6 comming 59 ! on the high antenna were absolutely not audible on the low
one and the W2,3,4 comming over 59 on the low one were absolutely not
audible on the high one - by absolutely I mean completely NOTHING ! And to
make the thing more complicated you might hear W3 on the high one better
than on the low one and W7 better on the low one ?!?!?!? (by the prefixes i
mean real location confirmed by zone - not the silly vanity calls I
personaly do not like - W5 should be in TX, OK...  not in NH or CA !)

b.The influence of real ground on the vertical angles of radiation is
crucial - try to play with different ground models...., terrain slope.....
Can you pronounce all those variables coming into question. I can not and
the difference is HUGE !

3.The amount of energy radiated over the whole space is of course in all
cases the same. I.e. if you radiate the energy somewhere where you do not
want it - it will be "missing" somewhere else.

What we (me + OK1RF) have done was putting the antennas closer. We have had
for ages 6/6/6 on 10m. They were @12/20/28m since 1986. Last spring we have
made an upgrade to this tower and it is now 6/6/6/6 @13/19/25/31m and it is
considerable difference. I can not make direct comparison it is just
"feeling" By modeling we get there just a few 1/10 of dB more - so nothing
but the vertical diagram looks to me much better. OK2RZ have done a lot of
testing on 10m and the results are not easily interpretable. What is good
varies with type of propagation, time of day........

One more thing - do not trust to AO too much. It uses the MININEC 3.02
engine. It will give you just rough answers. The NEC-2 engines will give you
better answers concerning radiation patterns but less precise answers
concerning impedances and element length. It is a question for NEC-4 or it's
competitor EM-professional to get more reasonable answers.

Have I helped ?

73 !

Jiri
OK1RI





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From W8JI@contesting.com  Fri Jul 27 22:16:56 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:16:56 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
In-Reply-To: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPOEGMCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>
References: <002101c116c4$240b3580$17b4f9d0@dchm7>
Message-ID: <200107272121.f6RLLDZ08133@paris.akorn.net>


Bill sure has it right. We should always model the antennas to pick 
stacking distance! 

We used to do this on paper before it was common to use personal 
computers to model antennas. You can do something like this:

1.) You look at the pattern of one antenna by itself.

2.) You look at the pattern of two non-directional radiators with the 
same polarization spaced various distances apart.

3.) You either adjust distance between the two non-directional 
radiators so the pattern they make causes a null where the real 
antenna has a major lobe that you do not want (minimum sidelobe 
stacking), or you adjust the distance so the stacking of the two 
non-directional radiators shows a null area extending about half-
way up the main lobe (maximum gain distance) of what would be 
the pattern of a real antenna.

So you see, stacking distance has absolutely nothing to do with 
boom length! Optimum stacking distance is a function of how 
narrow the original pattern is....or where the minor lobes are that 
you want to get rid of. 

Rules of thumb do not work.

Take two freespace dipoles for example. The boom length is zero. 
Optimum gain stacking distance is just barely under 3/4 
wavelength, because that forces four deep nulls in the main lobe, 
removing the most possible energy from unwanted directions. Zero 
boom length = 3/4wl stacking distance!!!

Make it two two element yagi's in freespace, and optimum gain 
stacking distance is slightly wider than the dipoles no matter how 
long the booms of each yagi are. 

Make it two antennas of any type that have 20 degree beamwidth, 
and stacking distance has to be so wide that it forces a null over a 
good part of the main lobe...otherwise you don't get maximum gain. 
Stacking distance would be well over 1-wl no matter how long the 
booms are.  

Stacking distance relates only to how wide the individual antenna 
patterns are (over earth), and if you want high gain or good side 
lobe suppression (you can't normally get both). The narrower each 
antennas pattern, the wider stacking distance becomes. It has 
nothing at all to do with boom length. 
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 


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From drsiddall@verner.com  Fri Jul 27 22:38:46 2001
From: drsiddall@verner.com (David Siddall)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:38:46 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
Message-ID: <D13D064657CDD411BBF500508BAF274FBB5826@DCEXCHG1>


So for a well-designed HF antenna, boom length geneally is not related to
"how narrow the original pattern is" ?

Dave K3ZJ 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Rauch [mailto:w8ji@akorn.net]
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 5:17 PM
To: Robert Shohet; towertalk@contesting.com; Bill Hider
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance

<   >


So you see, stacking distance has absolutely nothing to do with 
boom length! Optimum stacking distance is a function of how 
narrow the original pattern is....or where the minor lobes are that 
you want to get rid of. 

<   >

Stacking distance relates only to how wide the individual antenna 
patterns are (over earth), and if you want high gain or good side 
lobe suppression (you can't normally get both). The narrower each 
antennas pattern, the wider stacking distance becomes. It has 
nothing at all to do with boom length. 
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 


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From jirka@jimaz.cz  Fri Jul 27 22:40:32 2001
From: jirka@jimaz.cz (Jiri Sanda)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 23:40:32 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
In-Reply-To: <200107272121.f6RLLDZ08133@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <NBBBKAIBCJDDIHOEIBGDIEJAEGAA.jirka@jimaz.cz>


Hi,

Tom of course theoretically you are right but in the real life and real
practical situations the longer boom you have the wider spacing for maximum
gain is needed. (OK various nulls and lobes are comming but....). The
discussion - if I understand it well goes for Yagis 0.5 - 1.5 WL !

73 !

Jiri
OK1RI

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Tom Rauch
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 11:17 PM
To: Robert Shohet; towertalk@contesting.com; Bill Hider
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance



Bill sure has it right. We should always model the antennas to pick
stacking distance!

We used to do this on paper before it was common to use personal
computers to model antennas. You can do something like this:

1.) You look at the pattern of one antenna by itself.

2.) You look at the pattern of two non-directional radiators with the
same polarization spaced various distances apart.

3.) You either adjust distance between the two non-directional
radiators so the pattern they make causes a null where the real
antenna has a major lobe that you do not want (minimum sidelobe
stacking), or you adjust the distance so the stacking of the two
non-directional radiators shows a null area extending about half-
way up the main lobe (maximum gain distance) of what would be
the pattern of a real antenna.

So you see, stacking distance has absolutely nothing to do with
boom length! Optimum stacking distance is a function of how
narrow the original pattern is....or where the minor lobes are that
you want to get rid of.

Rules of thumb do not work.

Take two freespace dipoles for example. The boom length is zero.
Optimum gain stacking distance is just barely under 3/4
wavelength, because that forces four deep nulls in the main lobe,
removing the most possible energy from unwanted directions. Zero
boom length = 3/4wl stacking distance!!!

Make it two two element yagi's in freespace, and optimum gain
stacking distance is slightly wider than the dipoles no matter how
long the booms of each yagi are.

Make it two antennas of any type that have 20 degree beamwidth,
and stacking distance has to be so wide that it forces a null over a
good part of the main lobe...otherwise you don't get maximum gain.
Stacking distance would be well over 1-wl no matter how long the
booms are.

Stacking distance relates only to how wide the individual antenna
patterns are (over earth), and if you want high gain or good side
lobe suppression (you can't normally get both). The narrower each
antennas pattern, the wider stacking distance becomes. It has
nothing at all to do with boom length.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com


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From i4jmy@iol.it  Fri Jul 27 23:12:32 2001
From: i4jmy@iol.it (Maurizio Panicara)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 00:12:32 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
References: <002101c116c4$240b3580$17b4f9d0@dchm7> <200107272121.f6RLLDZ08133@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <004601c116e9$59563ee0$34860f97@i4jmy>


If my memory doesn't fail, the stacking distance by boomlenght was something
grown many years ago in the VHF/UHF to roughly approach a maximal stacking
gain with the smallest spacing in case of very long boom yagis.
The maximal yagi gain with several WL booms was assumed as strictly related,
or converging nearly as a linear function, to the antenna boomlenght.
The next assumption was that gain determines the "capture area" of an
antenna and if the two "areas" doesn't overlap, then the aimed 3 dB gain is
already achieved.
Sometimes a certain amount of distance reduction from max gain was accepted
as a little price to pay in order to obtain a cleaner pattern.
All the above was rough and isn't any more acceptable but anyway has little
to do with HF stacking where ground shape and heights from ground play a
consistent role setting the free space gain meaningless.
A wider coverage of vertical angles and a clean pattern are generally the
goals to be achieved on short waves antennas stacking.
The best solution for each individual location and preferences (and array)
is almost peculiar and unique.

73,
Mauri I4JMY



----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Rauch" <w8ji@akorn.net>
To: "Robert Shohet" <kq2m@mags.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>; "Bill
Hider" <n3rr@erols.com>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 11:16 PM
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance



>
> So you see, stacking distance has absolutely nothing to do with
> boom length! Optimum stacking distance is a function of how
> narrow the original pattern is....or where the minor lobes are that
> you want to get rid of.
>

> Rules of thumb do not work.
>

> Stacking distance relates only to how wide the individual antenna
> patterns are (over earth), and if you want high gain or good side
> lobe suppression (you can't normally get both). The narrower each
> antennas pattern, the wider stacking distance becomes. It has
> nothing at all to do with boom length.
> 73, Tom W8JI
> W8JI@contesting.com
>




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From baycock@HIWAAY.NET  Sat Jul 28 00:09:00 2001
From: baycock@HIWAAY.NET (Bill Aycock)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:09:00 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] finest tuners and switches
In-Reply-To: <200107271652.f6RGqHZ30437@paris.akorn.net>
References: <19734-3B61395A-1980@storefull-107.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010727180900.008b0cb0@HIWAAY.NET>


Tom- 
I think you were very kind in your comments. The "Bliss" tuner is an
example of very poor design, from several views.  Your comments are
directed mostly at the electrical characteristics, which is appropriate,
with your back ground, but other aspects are also  worth noting.

The tuning controlls are on both sides of the unit, completely preventing
application in most Shack set-ups, and the placement of one on each side of
the unit is an ergonomic nightmare. No one could tune this unit in a hurry,
because it requires both hands. The material selection is peculiar, eg,
"Built to last, having a strong cabinet covered with durable, aesthetic
“Formica”." as an example. It looks like a good homebrew project by a
short-term ham. 

The market now has several good tuners for less money, from several
sources. I don't see where this one can fit.

Bill-W4BSG



At 12:48 PM 7/27/01 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Hi Tom, 
>
>> The finest antenna tuners and switches made today....Bar NONE!
>> http://www.tomstubes.com
>
>Inside photos would be nice. I don't know why every manufacturer 
>doesn't do that. Is this tuner built with new parts, surplus parts, or 
>used parts? It looks sorta surplus, with the big knife switch and all. 
>
-
Bill Aycock   ---   Persimmon Hill 
 Woodville, Alabama, US 35776
 (in the N.E. corner of the State)
      W4BSG   --   Grid EM64vr
        baycock@HiWAAY.net
             w4bsg@arrl.net


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From n4vhk@summitschool.com  Fri Jul 27 20:16:57 2001
From: n4vhk@summitschool.com (Henry Heidtmann)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:16:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] Buying equipment on eBay
In-Reply-To: <1af801c116be$b255a880$d5cbe4cc@kevin>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10107271512040.12867-100000@sumnet.summit.winston-salem.nc.us>


Sorry you had a problem with ebay, Kevin. I have bought and sold over a
dozen pieces of old and newer ham gear on ebay, and have never had a
problem. In fact, the gear I bought was in surprisingly better condition
than what I expected for the price paid.
Of course, I like to limit my buying from hams only- and most hams use
their callsign as their ebay name. To me its a sign of credobility.
73,
Henry, N4VHK

On Fri, 27 Jul 2001, Kevin Hemsley wrote:

> 
> For any of you who are looking to buy gear on eBay, here is a guide to
> phrases you will find on eBay describing amateur radio equipment, and their
> real Translation.
> 
>        eBay: This rig puts out a BIG signal.
> Translation: It's 50 kHz wide.
> 
>        eBay: This is a really good CW rig.
> Translation: It doesn't work on SSB.
> 
>        eBay: I'd keep this baby, but my wife is making me clean everything
> out.
> Translation: I finally got around to giving this thing the proverbial
> heave-ho.
> 
>        eBay: This is a really good SSB rig.
> Translation: It doesn't work on CW.
> 
>        eBay: It comes with  the original box.
> Translation: Just brush out the kitty litter.
> 
>        eBay: This is a really good rig.
> Translation: It doesn't work on CW or SSB.
> 
>        eBay: The transmitter is outstanding.
> Translation: It doesn't receive.
> 
>        eBay: The receiver is really hot.
> Translation: It doesn't transmit.
> 
>        eBay: This rig is really hot.
> Translation: It's stolen.
> 
>        eBay: It seems to be a vintage regenerative type.
> Translation: It oscillates.
> 
>        eBay: I just retubed it.
> Translation: Got 'em from questionable used tube stock.
> 
>        eBay: I just aligned it.
> Translation: The slugs on the transformers are jammed.
> 
>        eBay: I don't know if it works.
> Translation: It doesn't work, probably never has.
> 
>        eBay: It doesn't chirp.
> Translation: it doesn't chirp because it doesn't transmit.
> 
>        eBay: The audio sounds great.
> Translation: The 120Hz buzz is faithfully reproduced.
> 
>        eBay: I just had it serviced.
> Translation: I sprayed WD-40 over all the wiring.
> 
>        eBay: Better "buy it now", cause it won't last.
> Translation: No translation needed.
> 
>        eBay: It works at full power.
> Translation: It sucks all it can from the wall.
> 
>        eBay: This rig has wide frequency coverage.
> Translation: It drifts up and down and out of band.
> 
>        eBay: Frequency stability is great.
> Translation: The VFO doesn't work - you'll have to use crystals.
> 
>        eBay: Real popular rig in its day.
> Translation: There were whole HF nets on the repair and maintenance
> problems.
> 
>        eBay: QST gave this one a really great review.
> Translation: The language broke new ground for profanity.
> 
>        eBay: It might need a bit of tweaking.
> Translation: Marconi himself couldn't fix it, much less align it.
> 
>        eBay: It was used in government service.
> Translation: It was stored outdoors on a wooden pallet.
> 
>        eBay: The dial drive may need lubricating.
> Translation: The gears are stripped and the setscrews frozen.
> 
>        eBay: I plugged it in to check that it lights up.
> Translation: The light came from the two foot high flames.
> 
>        eBay: I'm selling it because I have two of them.
> Translation: I'm getting rid of my parts radio.
> 
>        eBay: You won't find one at a better price.
> Translation: Better from the point of view of the seller.
> 
>        eBay: This is a collector's item.
> Translation: The manufacturer just went belly up and won't honor the
> warranty.
> 
>        eBay: It came from an estate sale.
> Translation: If you have any problem take it up with the deceased owner.
> 
>        eBay: It worked last time I used it.
> Translation: if it still worked I'd still be using it.
> 
>        eBay: The only lightning damage was a fuse.
> Translation: The only lightning damage I recognized was a fuse.
> 
>        eBay: I have the _______ somewhere I'll send it to you.
> Translation: you'll never see the _______.
> 
>        eBay: I'll pay for the shipping.
> Translation: I'll do anything to unload this boat anchor.
> 
>        eBay: It works ok on 80 meters.
> Translation: It had some parasitics but I got in and really messed it up and
> now I want to unload it.
> 
>        eBay: The tubes used by this rig are worth the asking price.
> Translation: The rig uses a rare 7360 beam deflection tube for a balanced
> modulator, but it's blown and you'll spend $80 to get a new one.
> 
>        eBay: This is the rig of my dreams.
> Translation: I really wanted one of these as a kid, but now I've got to let
> it go. As I've gotten older, I've learned what a hunka junk it is.
> 
>        eBay: The signal quality of this rig was easily recognizable in its
> day.
> Translation: The high distortion and bad audio quickly identified this rig.
> 
>        eBay: This rig will bring back the feelings and atmosphere of vintage
> ham gear.
> Translation: The bypass capacitors to the AC line put enough voltage on the
> chassis to give you a shock in the lips through the microphone, and it
> smokes so bad when you turn it on that you'll probably start coughing and
> wheezing.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
>           Kevin
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Kevin Hemsley
> kev@ida.net
> KB7TYA
> 
> 
> 
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From Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net  Sat Jul 28 00:32:43 2001
From: Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net (Kevin Hemsley)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:32:43 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Buying equipment on eBay
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10107271512040.12867-100000@sumnet.summit.winston-salem.nc.us>
Message-ID: <1c3401c116f4$6f8234c0$d5cbe4cc@kevin>


The post was intended as humor. I too have had good luck for the most part
on eBay.  I do agree with you about buying from amateurs who use their call
sign.  However, Caveat Emptor should always be remembered.

Thanks,
                Kevin
------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Hemsley
kev@ida.net
KB7TYA


Henry Heidtmann N4VHK Wrote:

> Sorry you had a problem with ebay, Kevin. I have bought and sold over a
> dozen pieces of old and newer ham gear on ebay, and have never had a
> problem. In fact, the gear I bought was in surprisingly better condition
> than what I expected for the price paid.
> Of course, I like to limit my buying from hams only- and most hams use
> their callsign as their ebay name. To me its a sign of credobility.
> 73,
> Henry, N4VHK




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From K3BU@aol.com  Sat Jul 28 00:31:08 2001
From: K3BU@aol.com (K3BU@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:31:08 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
Message-ID: <11c.243320a.289353bc@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/27/01 5:22:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, w8ji@akorn.net 
writes:

> So you see, stacking distance has absolutely nothing to do with 
> boom length! Optimum stacking distance is a function of how 
> narrow the original pattern is....or where the minor lobes are that 
> you want to get rid of. 

snipididuda....

> The narrower each 
>  antennas pattern, the wider stacking distance becomes. It has 
>  nothing at all to do with boom length. 
>  73, Tom W8JI


Hmmm,
and narrower antenna pattern has nothing to do with (longer) boom length? 
Some contradiction going on here (again).
Isn't it a bit farfetched to compare stacked dipoles (zero boom) to typical 
multielement antenna (bigger boom, bigger gain/narrower pattern, etc.) 
situations?
 
With stacked Razors (1.2 wave booms) I used about 1.2 wave spacing, based on 
experiences of others, mainly VHF crowd (no software back then), worked like 
the fine tuned Stradivarius.

Yuri, K3BU


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From K7GCO@aol.com  Sat Jul 28 01:50:23 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 20:50:23 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] painting and camoflage
Message-ID: <40.ecff634.2893664f@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/27/01 10:44:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
w9ol@billnjudy.com writes:<< 
 I purchased a military surplus camouflaged antenna a couple of years ago.
 Placed it in the garage when I got home and haven't been able to find that
 sucker since!
  ------------------------------------------------------------
 I don't jog, it makes the ice jump right out of my glass.
 ------------------------------------------------------------
 Bill H. in Chicagoland
 w9ol@billnjudy.com
  >

I was at the Rocky Mt Arsenal in Denver while in the Army in 53 where they 
made the G Gasses etc. Some "Invisible Paint" was developed.  What ever was 
painted with it disappeared.  We called the Pentagon about it and while their 
investigators were on the way there to evaluate it--some damn fool painted 
the can it was in and we haven't been able to find that sucker either.

We developed some "Dehydrated Water" which was great for desert troops.  It 
came in 8 and 12 oz packages (powdered Hydrogen and Oxygen) which was poured 
into a canteen and you just--add water.  The water was the water activator.  
These are absolutely true stories--I just made them up.  K7GCO


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From k6sdw@arrl.net  Sat Jul 28 02:02:36 2001
From: k6sdw@arrl.net (Eddy Avila)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 01:02:36 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Buying equipment on eBay
Message-ID: <F8PrvCWO6hm8Ua8d9Ee0000acc5@hotmail.com>


Bought two major pieces of Ten Tec equipment....was ripped off once (Corsair 
II receiver would go numb at different times, but of course seller knew 
nothing about this problem...ya right!) -- so, batting 50-50 on ebay!

Buyer beware......73


>From: "Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net>
>
>The post was intended as humor. I too have had good luck for the most part
>on eBay.  I do agree with you about buying from amateurs who use their call
>sign.  However, Caveat Emptor should always be remembered.
>
>Thanks,
>                 Kevin

>Henry Heidtmann N4VHK Wrote:
>
> > Sorry you had a problem with ebay, Kevin. I have bought and sold over a
> > dozen pieces of old and newer ham gear on ebay, and have never had a
> > problem. In fact, the gear I bought was in surprisingly better condition
> > than what I expected for the price paid.
> > Of course, I like to limit my buying from hams only- and most hams use
> > their callsign as their ebay name. To me its a sign of credobility.
> > 73,
> > Henry, N4VHK


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From k6sdw@arrl.net  Sat Jul 28 02:24:18 2001
From: k6sdw@arrl.net (Eddy Avila)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 01:24:18 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Painting antenna responses!!
Message-ID: <F142LF1g0McH767pN8p0000b10f@hotmail.com>


Thanks to everyone that responded to my question about painting my 
shinny-new hf2 vertical......too shinny, it seems, for the wife and the 
neighbors!! E G A D S!!

Responses ran from the very humorous (paint the wife instead of the 
antenna)....the irreverent to some most excellent advice...it seems I'm not 
alone in trying to keep peace with the xyl and the neighors about 
antennas....I will tell ya my wife is much more difficult to work with than 
most any CC&Rs.......G A S P!!!

Thanks again, I'll be painting a 32' vertical this weekend so hopefully will 
soon be on the air with the damn thing and work some decent DX on 80/40 
before this sunspot cycle gives it up!

73...../ed/k6sdw

_________________________________________________________________
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From blueis@sprintmail.com  Sat Jul 28 02:42:03 2001
From: blueis@sprintmail.com (Gary B ( RVN 'BTO' ))
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 21:42:03 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk]
Message-ID: <001b01c11706$c0faf780$94026b83@sprintmail.com>


Greetings to all...

As the newest of the TT Newbies, I continued to be marvelled by the scope of
information passing between the group members.  A BIG tip o' the hat to you
all.

However, most info exchanged in this forum deals with specific issues.  As
someone getting on HF after a thirty-year absence, I am planning to install
a tower and HF yagi.  My question:  Is there a single source of information
for tower installation, grounding, cable routing, etc??  I need basic
information... perhaps a compilation of 'best practices'.  I recognize that
EVERY installation is different.  But there has to be a book or something
that reminds me, for example, to ground my coax at the point of entry into
the house...  isn't there?!?  What are the basic procedures/tasks/practices
to install a tower and HF yagi??

I would like to end with a suggestion.  And I am very serious!  I believe
this group should undertake the project of writing a book.  The book should
address each of the issues associated with tower, antenna, rotor, etc.
installation/maintenance.  Many individuals in the mail-list have specific
interests and expertise.  Let these people write the chapters on those
issues.  Grounding/Lightning protection is a issue that comes to mind as an
example.  Not interested in putting this together as a commercial venture??
Put it on the web!  I would bet that it would be one of the most-visited ham
sites on the 'Net!!

Well, anyway...  thanks for the info I've gleaned so far.  My tower is due
to arrive late August.  I've got a lot to do until then.  I just wish I knew
what it was!

Gary B
K3GB
RVN BTO



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From K4tmc@aol.com  Sat Jul 28 03:11:42 2001
From: K4tmc@aol.com (K4tmc@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 22:11:42 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Awesome HF Array Spotted
Message-ID: <5b.19504eaa.2893795e@aol.com>


On the way back from a week-long business trip, I made a side visit to a 
surplus outlet in the Ft. Bragg, NC area this afternoon and spotted a new 
tower near the base.  What at first I took to be another cookie-cutter cell 
tower turned out to be something else.  As I got closer there seemed to be 
some large horizontal attachments to this one.  As I drove closer it was 
evident that these were HF log-periodic arrays.  And, there were 3 of them 
stacked on this one tower!  My first thought was that this was not a military 
setup, since they usually only have one LP per tower; so maybe this was some 
ham operator who had won the lottery and had put up a "dream station".  Since 
there were some people still working in the field around the tower base, I 
slowed and pulled into the driveway.  As I walked across the field toward 
what appeared to be the construction tent, out walked Jay Terleski, WX0B!  It 
seems that Array Solutions and Custom Metalworks (Paul Nyland, K7PN) have 
teamed-up to install this system for the Army Special Forces.  They have 
spent the last 3 weeks working on the installation.

Luckily, I had my digital camera along, so I have placed two pictures at the 
following web site www.geocities.com/k4tmc/wx0b-22.jpg and 
www.geocities.com/k4tmc/wx0b-31.jpg .  Here is a quick description:  170 ft. 
Rohn 65 tower with 3 custom Tennadyne log periodics.  They have also 
installed three 900 ft. terminated longwires aimed at various foreign 
locations.  Jay indicated that he is planning an article for QST on this 
installation, and he will have pictures at the Array Solutions web site later.

Also, Jay may be on the air with this system over the weekend.  He has 
obtained permission to use the call K4A.  So, look for him with a huge signal 
anywhere on 40 to 10 meters.

73,
Henry Pollock - K4TMC
Raleigh, NC   


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From kk9a@arrl.net  Sat Jul 28 03:28:09 2001
From: kk9a@arrl.net (kk9a@arrl.net)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 21:28:09 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: [CQ-Contest] Busting Packet
Message-ID: <007601c1170c$f2b243e0$e45e70d1@kk9a>



There are still system flaws and uniques sometimes
are marked as -B.  I noticed this in my 2000 CQWW
SSB report.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Naumann - N5NJ
To: W8JI@contesting.com; cq-contest@contesting.com; Ed
Sent: 7/27/2001 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Busting Packet


I'm anticipating that K3EST will make a statement here at some point in
the
near future, but this erroneous comment regarding Uniques needs
correction:

>> It's a shame those contacts don't count, it is the careful
listening/good
receiver penalty at work, hi hi. <<

No credit for QSOs with Unique stations are removed from anyone's log.

They are simply marked as unique with a "U" on the UBN report.  No
credit is
removed calls marked as Unique.

Please read that statement carefully.  It says that no one loses credit
for
working a unique station.

There are various methods used to determine whether or not calls are
Bad,
and if that occurs, they are marked as "-B" on the UBN report and credit
is
removed.

If you have dispute about a callsign in your log that is marked "-B",
send
your supporting info to:

questions@cqww.com

73,
Bob N5NJ




----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Rauch" <w8ji@akorn.net>
To: <cq-contest@contesting.com>; "Ed" <k4sb@mindspring.com>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Busting Packet


>
> > just a couple of thoughts. First, we went to computer log checking,
now
> > ARRL requires Cabrillo, someone came up with "uniques" and now there
are
>
> We always work several uniques in contests, sometimes very low
> power poor antenna stations that no one else manages to hear. i'm
> sure others do the same.
>
> It's a shame those contacts don't count, it is the careful
> listening/good receiver penalty at work, hi hi.
>
> Recently a bunch of people busted ZL3REX's call in a contest, and
> a KL7 got it right. Since ZL3REX was not in the callbook (even
> though it is the good call) and ZL2REX was in the callbook (even
> though it is a bad call) all the people who logged the contact
> incorrectly got credit.
>
> Anyone who logged it wrong received credit. At least one person
> who logged it right had it tossed. I'd bet this happens more than we
> imagine.
>
> 73, Tom W8JI
> W8JI@contesting.com
>
>
> --
> CQ-Contest on WWW: http://lists.contesting.com/_cq-contest/
> Administrative requests: cq-contest-REQUEST@contesting.com
>


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From W8JI@contesting.com  Sat Jul 28 03:27:58 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 22:27:58 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
In-Reply-To: <11c.243320a.289353bc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200107280232.f6S2WDZ14466@paris.akorn.net>


Hi Yuri,

> Hmmm,
> and narrower antenna pattern has nothing to do with (longer) boom length?

No. They are not directly related. What if I stacked two dish antennas? What is the boom length of a dish?

For example, your own super 10dB-over-a- 5-element-yagi-super-
razor beam antenna would require a much wider stacking distance 
than the lower gain yagi, because the pattern is "razor sharp" 
compared to a yagi of the same boom length.

It always works by pattern width, it only works by boom length by 
odd coincidence or blind luck.   

> Some contradiction going on here (again). Isn't it a bit farfetched to
> compare stacked dipoles (zero boom) to typical multielement antenna
> (bigger boom, bigger gain/narrower pattern, etc.) situations?

The normal way to check the validity of a statement is to take it to 
extremes and see if the rule works. Even if someone is unfamiliar 
with that normal procedure to prove a statement, I also compared a 
short-boom yagi.

 > With stacked Razors (1.2 wave booms) I used about 1.2 wave spacing, based
> on experiences of others, mainly VHF crowd (no software back then), worked
> like the fine tuned Stradivarius.

I'm sure it did. No one can make antennas work like you can.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 


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From W8JI@contesting.com  Sat Jul 28 03:27:58 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 22:27:58 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
In-Reply-To: <NBBBKAIBCJDDIHOEIBGDIEJAEGAA.jirka@jimaz.cz>
References: <200107272121.f6RLLDZ08133@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <200107280232.f6S2WFZ14469@paris.akorn.net>


> Tom of course theoretically you are right but in the real life and real
> practical situations the longer boom you have the wider spacing for
> maximum gain is needed. (OK various nulls and lobes are comming but....).
> The discussion - if I understand it well goes for Yagis 0.5 - 1.5 WL !

 I didn't intend to start an argument, just to point out HOW it works. 

Some people like to know how or why something happens, some 
people like to just plod along clueless about how or why things 
work the way they do. If someone has no interest in how it works, 
they should just ignore my post and believe what they like.

As Mauri points out, that old rule of thumb came from VHF 
antennas and was just a rough rule. It was used because most 
people could not model or calculate optimum distance, and it was 
better than nothing.

A person who cares about results would model the antenna, not 
use a rule of thumb that may be incorrect. Stacking distance is not 
a function of boom length, it is a function of individual antenna 
patterns and what you want to obtain.



73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 


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From W8JI@contesting.com  Sat Jul 28 03:41:13 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 22:41:13 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] New Beverage article
Message-ID: <200107280245.f6S2jTZ14746@paris.akorn.net>


For low-band ops...I just posted a new Beverage article at 
www.w8ji.com that describes how to phase staggered or Echelon 
Beverages.

It describes two different broadband phasing systems that can 
enhance F/B ratio. These systems allow the antenna to work on 
multiple bands without changing phasing lines. One system uses 
no more parts than a conventional single Beverage.

   





73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 


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From jimr.reid@verizon.net  Sat Jul 28 03:51:15 2001
From: jimr.reid@verizon.net (Jim Reid)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:51:15 -1000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Awesome HF Array Spotted
References: <5b.19504eaa.2893795e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001801c11710$33cef000$a1040304@vz.dsl.genuity.net>


The LP on top is certainly for lower frequencies.
Appears the two lower ones are to be,  possibly,
"ganged".

73,  Jim  KH7M




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From K3BU@aol.com  Sat Jul 28 03:53:05 2001
From: K3BU@aol.com (K3BU@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 22:53:05 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: [CQ-Contest] SO2R vs SO1R
Message-ID: <fb.17598df2.28938311@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/27/01 10:25:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
w7ti@dslextreme.com writes:

> 
>  If all a person wants to do is maximize their score, then SO2R is the
>  way to go.  Think of all you don't have to worry about:
>  
>  1.  No band strategy.  You're monitoring all of them all the time.
>  2.  No knowledge of propagation.  When a band opens, you're there.
>  3.  No decision whether to CQ or S&P.  You are doing both.
>  4.  No real radio smarts required.  Only manual dexterity.
>  


Why didn't I think of that!

While people are arguing about SO2R, I am trying to figure out SO4R on the 
same band. Two radios on different bands is chicken feed. 

Must be hard for RF scrambled brains to figure out that Ham Radio Contesting 
is a technical sport. Parameters and categories are set in the rules (power 
levels, band categories, OP categories). This is a challenge for us to figure 
out how to use technology to enhance our operating and scores within the 
rules (packet = someone else is helping you) So forget about crying about too 
many rigs etc. If one is serious about winning, he will go for the max, if 
you can afford it (time and/or money) go for it. If you can't, settle into 
category that suits you best and gives you more fun and go for it too.
Stop worrying about how many keyers, rigs, computers, that is a part of the 
game. We have already diluted categories and have some that don't even get 
competitors. If it ain't hard, it ain't no challenge, it ain't no worth going 
after it. What is the point of competing for something that has already 1000 
"winners"?
Has anyone got plans for multiplier robot? Please reply directly to me, I 
will summarize it :-)

Just recuperating from extraction of the kidney stone, contest weekend is a 
vacation compared to this experience, ouch!

Yuri, K3BU


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From W8JI@contesting.com  Sat Jul 28 03:53:34 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 22:53:34 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: [CQ-Contest] Busting Packet
In-Reply-To: <007601c1170c$f2b243e0$e45e70d1@kk9a>
Message-ID: <200107280257.f6S2voZ15022@paris.akorn.net>


> There are still system flaws and uniques sometimes
> are marked as -B.  I noticed this in my 2000 CQWW
> SSB report.

So uniques do always count? I somehow thought it was otherwise.

What does a "-B" mean. I've never looked at a report and don't 
understand the jargon "-B".


 

73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 


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From rmaull@citynet.net  Sat Jul 28 03:59:15 2001
From: rmaull@citynet.net (Roy Maull)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 22:59:15 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] painting and camoflage
In-Reply-To: <00a101c116c3$9b24d280$0201a8c0@billnjudy>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010727225829.00a16b30@pop3.citynet.net>


At 13:43 7/27/01, you wrote:

>I purchased a military surplus camouflaged antenna a couple of years ago.
>Placed it in the garage when I got home and haven't been able to find that
>sucker since!
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>I don't jog, it makes the ice jump right out of my glass.
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Bill H. in Chicagoland
>w9ol@billnjudy.com

         Bill,

         Be very careful what color car you buy in the future:-)




      73.. Roy  N8YYS
   Keep West Virginia beautiful.. Grow ALUMINUM!!



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From molenda@buffnet.net  Sat Jul 28 04:16:59 2001
From: molenda@buffnet.net (molenda)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 23:16:59 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] placing electrical power wire inside PVC along with coax
Message-ID: <200107280315.XAA94875@buffnet4.buffnet.net>


Hi Guys !  I am still working on my tower project.  I have decided to use 3"
PVC to carry the coax from the tower to the shack.  along with the coax will
be the rotor cable .  I had a Idea ! what about running a length of outdoor
electrical wire so that I can have power to the tower for an out let for
soldering guns , tools or a spot light ?  any ideas will this effect the
incoming signal ? will it couple with the coax or cause some sort of noise
when it is in use , being that it is so close to the coax  ?  Thanks for
your Help !!     John    KB2HUK


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From w7ti@dslextreme.com  Sat Jul 28 04:30:45 2001
From: w7ti@dslextreme.com (Bill Turner)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 20:30:45 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: [CQ-Contest] SO2R vs SO1R
In-Reply-To: <fb.17598df2.28938311@aol.com>
References: <fb.17598df2.28938311@aol.com>
Message-ID: <h8c4mt4o9rk0k7gg8u9i9gn8chhrui382g@4ax.com>


On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 22:53:05 EDT, K3BU@aol.com wrote:

>If one is serious about winning, he will go for the max

_________________________________________________________

Nonsense.  WRTC is as serious as it gets and they do NOT go for the max,
they go for as equal as possible.  That's what makes it the premier
event in contesting - not how many trinkets one has, but how good an
operator one is.  It's what's between the ears, not what's on the desk.

Bill, W7TI


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From mmfancher@earthlink.net  Sat Jul 28 04:56:32 2001
From: mmfancher@earthlink.net (Mark Fancher)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 23:56:32 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Large Navy Antenna Farm in N. California
Message-ID: <013901c11719$4b326660$b22c56d1@ae.ge.com>


A few years ago, I was stationed at Travis AFB, CA near Sacramento.  One
day, I was taking a ride through the countryside when I came across a huge -
I mean huge antenna farm.  It had all kinds of very tall towers, shorter
towers and curtain arrays.  It was a ham's fantasy come true!

I remember it was a Navy installation, but it didn't seem to be active
anymore.  In fact, from what I recall, the base housing looked like it had
been converted into county government housing for poor immigrant workers.

This installation was about 10-20 miles north of Vacaville.

Does anyone know what this base was used for, and is it still used by remote
control?

Maybe someone on Tower Talk was actually stationed there?

Mark Fancher, WO9G
mmfancher@earthlink.net



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From kaiserdr@yahoo.com  Sat Jul 28 05:09:56 2001
From: kaiserdr@yahoo.com (Dave Kaiser)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 21:09:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] placing electrical power wire inside PVC along with coax
In-Reply-To: <200107280315.XAA94875@buffnet4.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20010728040956.26579.qmail@web10005.mail.yahoo.com>


John,

Definately go with 3-inch. Several years ago I
built my new house with two pvc conduits coming
under the slab into the ham shack from each of
two towers. I even planned this with a ham friend
who is an electrician and he suggested running
2-inch pvc, which I did.

This winter I found that the conduit from the
main tower was way too small. I had up a Force
C-4-XL, requiring two coaxes, rotor cable wire,
coax from a 2m/440 beam, and coax from an
80-meter dipole -- and did not have room for one
of these coaxes. Best to go bigger.

Although I have not tried running A/C through
there, you probably should not -- for both safety
and noise reasons.

Good luck with your project!

Dave, AL7HG
Crystal River, Fla.
Dhahran, Saudi Arabia

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/


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From w7ti@dslextreme.com  Sat Jul 28 05:52:12 2001
From: w7ti@dslextreme.com (Bill Turner)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 21:52:12 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] placing electrical power wire inside PVC along with coax
In-Reply-To: <200107280315.XAA94875@buffnet4.buffnet.net>
References: <200107280315.XAA94875@buffnet4.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <p1h4mtk4c71br0mmk9jgbqvf8iq96ibpev@4ax.com>


On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 23:16:59 -0400, molenda wrote:

>will it couple with the coax or cause some sort of noise
>when it is in use , being that it is so close to the coax  ?

_________________________________________________________

I haven't done exactly what you are recommending, but I know at my QTH
the AC lines are rather noisy, mostly from the computer.  I had a six
meter ground plane on the roof near my swamp cooler and it picked up all
kinds of trash from the AC feed.

The problem with doing it is you'll never know... one day you'll be
listening for some rare DX and not quite hearing it, and you'll wonder.

Best to avoid it completely.

Bill, W7TI


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From n3rr@erols.com  Sat Jul 28 06:11:41 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 01:11:41 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] placing electrical power wire inside PVC along with coax
In-Reply-To: <200107280315.XAA94875@buffnet4.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPAEHGCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>


John,

Usually, there are local building codes that do not allow A/C power in the
same conduit with other cables, especially if it is hard-wired to your
electrical panel and especially outdoors.
Also, that is not the way to ensure no interference between the A/C and your
coax.

But, there is a way to do what you want and not violate the codes and not
have interference.  Just install the Romex cable (I'd suggest UF cable) and
at the shack end of the cable put an electrical plug.  At the tower end, put
a junction box and an electrical outlet.  When you need power at the tower,
plug in the plug at the shack.  Presumably, you will be working on something
at the tower and any interference in the coax will not be heard in the RX
since you are at the tower.  When you are finished with the project, unplug
the plug.

Just remember to use the correct size wire in the UF cable for the distance
you wish to run the cable. Check the ARRL Handbook or other electrical
references for this wire size.

Also, I would use a GFCI outlet into which I would plug in the cable at the
shack end.  This is a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter that blows the
built-in GFCI breaker, disconnecting the power to the cable, if the current
being drawn in the ground wire is not the same as the current in the "hot"
and "neutral" wires (within mili- or micro-Amperes).  That way, you don't
get fried at the tower.

73,

Bill, N3RR



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of molenda
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 11:17 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] placing electrical power wire inside PVC along with
coax



Hi Guys !  I am still working on my tower project.  I have decided to use 3"
PVC to carry the coax from the tower to the shack.  along with the coax will
be the rotor cable .  I had a Idea ! what about running a length of outdoor
electrical wire so that I can have power to the tower for an out let for
soldering guns , tools or a spot light ?  any ideas will this effect the
incoming signal ? will it couple with the coax or cause some sort of noise
when it is in use , being that it is so close to the coax  ?  Thanks for
your Help !!     John    KB2HUK


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From jirka@jimaz.cz  Sat Jul 28 07:55:09 2001
From: jirka@jimaz.cz (Jiri Sanda)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 08:55:09 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] RE: TowerTalk] The best stacking distance for long-boom yagis - 0.5 wavelength!!
In-Reply-To: <000c01c11707$ac2faca0$e45e70d1@kk9a>
Message-ID: <NBBBKAIBCJDDIHOEIBGDOEJEEGAA.jirka@jimaz.cz>


Hi John +others,

This was an exceptional situation, we run most of the time both the antennas
and usually the difference is below 1-2 S units. This was what "might also
happen"

73 !

Jiri




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From Jan.E.Holm@telia.se  Sat Jul 28 08:32:35 2001
From: Jan.E.Holm@telia.se (Jan.E.Holm@telia.se)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 09:32:35 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Optimum Stacking Distance
In-Reply-To: <00b801c116bb$dc6e5c00$0adb2fd4@comtrade.ee>
Message-ID: <H00015800a254c12.0996304790.tms1.han.telia.se@MHS>


Formula you are looking for might be:

        y
  X=  --------
      2sin(Z/2)

where   X= optimal stacking distance
        Y= lambda (boom lenght)
        Z= 3 dB beamwith angle

This is from work by DL6WU

This is alo used

Stacking dist=   57.3
               -------------------
                3 dB beamwith / 2  

This is for VHF/UHF stacking for optimum pattern EME arrays.
Will give very clean pattern with low sideloobs, i e the
array will have very good G/T.

I hope I didn´t mess these formulas up but I think this
might be what KQ2M was thinking about, in any case I dont
think it does add anything important to this subject.

73, Jim SM2EKM
------------------------------------------------------------
However, this doesnt apply for HF stacking where we
are looking for other things.


> 
> 
> Some advice to take the effective boom length of the antenna in 
> wavelengths
> and take the square root of it.  This is the optimum stacking 
> distance of
> your beams in Wavelength.
> 
> I think it is way too general not taking into account heights and 
> antenna
> specifications.
> 
> You can only find the answer with modelling software.
> 
> Tonno
> ES5TV
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Shohet" <kq2m@mags.net>
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 8:47 PM
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
> 
> 
> >
> > I have been told that there is a formula for the optimum stacking 
> > distance
> > of similar antennas that is based on the antenna boom lengths and 
> > other
> > factors.
> >
> > If anyone is familiar with this, could they please post the 
> >formula?
> >
> > Tnx & 73
> >
> > Bob KQ2M
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
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> >
> 
> 
> 
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From sm2cew@telia.com  Sat Jul 28 06:44:15 2001
From: sm2cew@telia.com (Peter Sundberg)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 07:44:15 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
In-Reply-To: <200107280232.f6S2WFZ14469@paris.akorn.net>
References: <NBBBKAIBCJDDIHOEIBGDIEJAEGAA.jirka@jimaz.cz>
 <200107272121.f6RLLDZ08133@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <200107280744.JAA22531@d1o959.telia.com>


Just to clarify, using a rule of thumb for stacking VHF/UHF antennas today
is obsolete. Careful modelling must be done and just as Tom points out, you
have to decide what you want to achieve. Some stack for maimum gain,
especially when the array is used for terrestrial (tropo) communication but
when the array is to be used for moonbounce the receive performance (i e
sidelobes/noise pickup) is more important. In most cases max gain and max
receive performance (G/T) do not coincide. And far too many people only
look at f/b as a measure of performance..

Check the G/T table at www.qsl.net/sm2cew and you will find out that even
some antenna manufacturers do not know the optimum stacking distance for
their antennas. Sometimes their suggested stacking distances gives away as
much as 0.5 db which is a lot on EME. It also means putting up a lot more
aluminium than needed in the air for the given gain. 

Stacking these days must be done more intelligently than using a rule of
thumb.

/Peter SM2CEW





At 04:27 2001-07-28 , you wrote:
>
>> Tom of course theoretically you are right but in the real life and real
>> practical situations the longer boom you have the wider spacing for
>> maximum gain is needed. (OK various nulls and lobes are comming but....).
>> The discussion - if I understand it well goes for Yagis 0.5 - 1.5 WL !
>
> I didn't intend to start an argument, just to point out HOW it works. 
>
>Some people like to know how or why something happens, some 
>people like to just plod along clueless about how or why things 
>work the way they do. If someone has no interest in how it works, 
>they should just ignore my post and believe what they like.
>
>As Mauri points out, that old rule of thumb came from VHF 
>antennas and was just a rough rule. It was used because most 
>people could not model or calculate optimum distance, and it was 
>better than nothing.
>
>A person who cares about results would model the antenna, not 
>use a rule of thumb that may be incorrect. Stacking distance is not 
>a function of boom length, it is a function of individual antenna 
>patterns and what you want to obtain.
>
>
>
>73, Tom W8JI
>W8JI@contesting.com 
>
>
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From Jan.E.Holm@telia.se  Sat Jul 28 09:16:13 2001
From: Jan.E.Holm@telia.se (Jan.E.Holm@telia.se)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:16:13 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Optimum Stacking Distance
In-Reply-To: <H00015800a254c12.0996304790.tms1.han.telia.se@MHS>
Message-ID: <H00015800a254f82.0996307876.tms1.han.telia.se@MHS>


Yes, as SM2CEW points out these formulas are overruled
these days, this stuff is probably 20 years old by now.
However, using these formulas might not produce a 100%
optimum array but I dont think it will be far off but
for EME when you are hunting tens of dB´s it might not
apply any more.

de SM2EKM


> 
> Formula you are looking for might be:
> 
>         y
>   X=  --------
>       2sin(Z/2)
> 
> where   X= optimal stacking distance
>         Y= lambda (boom lenght)
>         Z= 3 dB beamwith angle
> 
> This is from work by DL6WU
> 
> This is alo used
> 
> Stacking dist=   57.3
>                -------------------
>                 3 dB beamwith / 2  
> 
> This is for VHF/UHF stacking for optimum pattern EME arrays.
> Will give very clean pattern with low sideloobs, i e the
> array will have very good G/T.
> 
> I hope I didn´t mess these formulas up but I think this
> might be what KQ2M was thinking about, in any case I dont
> think it does add anything important to this subject.
> 
> 73, Jim SM2EKM
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> However, this doesnt apply for HF stacking where we
> are looking for other things.
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Some advice to take the effective boom length of the antenna in 
> > wavelengths
> > and take the square root of it.  This is the optimum stacking 
> > distance of
> > your beams in Wavelength.
> > 
> > I think it is way too general not taking into account heights and 
> > antenna
> > specifications.
> > 
> > You can only find the answer with modelling software.
> > 
> > Tonno
> > ES5TV
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert Shohet" <kq2m@mags.net>
> > To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 8:47 PM
> > Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
> > 
> > 
> > >
> > > I have been told that there is a formula for the optimum 
stacking 
> > > distance
> > > of similar antennas that is based on the antenna boom lengths 
and 
> > > other
> > > factors.
> > >
> > > If anyone is familiar with this, could they please post the 
> > >formula?
> > >
> > > Tnx & 73
> > >
> > > Bob KQ2M
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----
> > > FAQ on WWW:               
http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
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> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----
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> > 
> 
> 
> 
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From franknorton@home.com  Sat Jul 28 10:11:06 2001
From: franknorton@home.com (Frank Norton)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 05:11:06 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: [CQ-Contest] SO2R vs SO1R
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010728050808.00a148d0@mail.baycty1.mi.home.com>


As a contester at heart but a little pistol in life I submit the 
following:  The vast majority of us are...in fact...little pistols.  Our 
only hope of really winning is to win by meeting our personal goals while 
still going for the max...by using what is between our ears.

As Ham Radio Op's I believe we r part of a worldwide fraternity.  A 
fraternity enriched by its diversity.  This diversity includes the various 
types of operation, as well as the various types within each category.

I consider myself a contester, who is a DX'er and student of ham radio in 
between contests. Many who subscribe to this reflector are probably related 
to that view to one degree or another.  I doubt that a low band rag-chewer, 
or VHF fanatic would think that this reflector is appropriate for their 
needs,  though I bet the more knowledgeable of them do.

So--as a contester in a varied fraternity I go for the max...my max!  I do 
so by operating as professionally and courteously as I know how.  If I 
interfere with another station I apologize, if another station is QRMing 
me, I try to discuss it briefly then continue my effort.  There r many 
things I will not do to get the "max"...but I sure will give it a 
shot.  Most of all I consider each contest a learning session---before, 
during, and after.

We all need to focus on our fraternal spirit, especially the operating 
procedures and technique while we pursue our goals for any given 
contest.  We also need to focus on studying propagation from our 
QTH's.  It's great to be able to predict when, and at what frequency and 
heading we can work Saudi Arabia vs. India, isn't it?  We little pistol's 
need this info more than the big guns.  In fact we need every scrap of 
knowledge about ham radio we can get!  We need scraps of knowledge more 
because our "windows" r shorter and our ERP is less----> less S units on 
the far end.

Thanks to all who contribute to TT.  One of my personal goals is to learn 3 
new things each day.  Many of u I have thanked personally....but thanks for 
helping me...'cause TT comes up with at least one of the three each day!

Thanks of course to the list sponsors!   Without u none of this wud be 
possible.

73 de Frank, kb8xu


At 08:30 PM 7/27/2001 -0700, you wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 22:53:05 EDT, K3BU@aol.com wrote:
 >If one is serious about winning, he will go for the max
_________________________________________________________

Nonsense. WRTC is as serious as it gets and they do NOT go for the max,
they go for as equal as possible. That's what makes it the premier
event in contesting - not how many trinkets one has, but how good an
operator one is. It's what's between the ears, not what's on the desk.
Bill, W7TI



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From =?windows-1252?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=" <tonno.vahk@mail.ee  Sat Jul 28 09:36:52 2001
From: =?windows-1252?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=" <tonno.vahk@mail.ee (=?windows-1252?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 11:36:52 +0300
Subject: [TowerTalk] The best stacking distance for long-boom yagis - 0.5 wavelength!!
References: <NBBBKAIBCJDDIHOEIBGDOEIOEGAA.jirka@jimaz.cz>
Message-ID: <00b001c11740$76bf9f60$0adb2fd4@comtrade.ee>


Thanks, Jiri, for showing up as I hoped.

I had this 6/6/6/6 @13/19/25/31m of yours exactly in mind when I pointed out
that I might not be the only one stacking them so close.

Have you found any difference in stacking OWA and ordinary yagis? As it
seems to me that 0.5-0.6wl goes even better with OWA.

Maybe I should have emphasized in my post that I wanted to find the best
stacking distance for contesting! Not to maximize F/B definitely.
And I was using flat terrain when modelling. The height and the quality of
ground did not have much to do with the results.

But the fact that you get this fat high 90 degree lobe when moving wider
from 0.5-0.6 wl remains.

As my post was so long that many people did not make it till the end
probably I would post my 3 questions again:)

1.How bad is the exsistence of the high fat lobe at 90 degrees? Does it
effect also near field - other antennas on the tower??? Does it cause
interference?

2. Can I trust AO on that? I have found that there is almost perfect match
between AO results and field measurement as far as I can go (impedances,
SWR, etc.)
so I would trust it.

3. Are there any disadvantages when closely stacking beams that I have
failed to notice?

After all it seems that some people have paid too little attention on
modelling their stacks before putting them up and rather relying on "rules
of thumb" and others' opinions and I suspect that contesting community in
total is wasting quite a few db-s this way heating up the air.:)

73s
Tonno
ES5TV



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jiri Sanda" <jirka@jimaz.cz>
To: "towertalk" <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 11:00 PM
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] The best stacking distance for long-boom yagis -
0.5 wavelength!!


>
> Hello all,
>
> since I was directly asked I will come with some answer - or my perception
> of the problem.
>
> 1.It is important to answer the question why to stack the antennas. There
is
> a bunch of answers:
>
> On VHF to obtain more gain for "direct" propagation - not our case, here
you
> want to stack the antennas for maximum forward gain - i.e. the rules
> pronounced by Bill are more-less correct - a little over 1 WL for 1WL
boom.
> etc. There is quite interesting study on this topic on SM5BSZ page and of
> course the "BIBLE" of antenna modeling - www.cebik.com
>
> 2.ON HF I am sure that this is only one - less important point, what you
> really want to do is to cover as many vertical angles as possible. To
> achieve this you need to have the antennas closer.
> Again there is not an easy answer. I do not believe modeling will give you
> real answers since:
> a. I do not know - may be someone much smarter then myself knows - in
which
> angles in a given period of time you want to radiate !?!?!?
> Observation from this year IARU - I was running OL1HQ on 20m SSB. Around
my
> sunrise there was a peculiar propagation - As I have said here several
> times - we do have 2 more-less similar antennas - 6Y (16m boom) + 5Y
(14.5m
> boom) the first one in 24m, the other on other tower in 52m. The
propagation
> was so that it looked like as a completely different frequencies. The
W6/7+
> KH6 comming 59 ! on the high antenna were absolutely not audible on the
low
> one and the W2,3,4 comming over 59 on the low one were absolutely not
> audible on the high one - by absolutely I mean completely NOTHING ! And to
> make the thing more complicated you might hear W3 on the high one better
> than on the low one and W7 better on the low one ?!?!?!? (by the prefixes
i
> mean real location confirmed by zone - not the silly vanity calls I
> personaly do not like - W5 should be in TX, OK...  not in NH or CA !)
>
> b.The influence of real ground on the vertical angles of radiation is
> crucial - try to play with different ground models...., terrain slope.....
> Can you pronounce all those variables coming into question. I can not and
> the difference is HUGE !
>
> 3.The amount of energy radiated over the whole space is of course in all
> cases the same. I.e. if you radiate the energy somewhere where you do not
> want it - it will be "missing" somewhere else.
>
> What we (me + OK1RF) have done was putting the antennas closer. We have
had
> for ages 6/6/6 on 10m. They were @12/20/28m since 1986. Last spring we
have
> made an upgrade to this tower and it is now 6/6/6/6 @13/19/25/31m and it
is
> considerable difference. I can not make direct comparison it is just
> "feeling" By modeling we get there just a few 1/10 of dB more - so nothing
> but the vertical diagram looks to me much better. OK2RZ have done a lot of
> testing on 10m and the results are not easily interpretable. What is good
> varies with type of propagation, time of day........
>
> One more thing - do not trust to AO too much. It uses the MININEC 3.02
> engine. It will give you just rough answers. The NEC-2 engines will give
you
> better answers concerning radiation patterns but less precise answers
> concerning impedances and element length. It is a question for NEC-4 or
it's
> competitor EM-professional to get more reasonable answers.
>
> Have I helped ?
>
> 73 !
>
> Jiri
> OK1RI
>
>
>
>
>
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From jirka@jimaz.cz  Sat Jul 28 11:41:55 2001
From: jirka@jimaz.cz (Jiri Sanda)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:41:55 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] The best stacking distance for long-boom yagis - 0.5 wavelength!!
In-Reply-To: <00b001c11740$76bf9f60$0adb2fd4@comtrade.ee>
Message-ID: <NBBBKAIBCJDDIHOEIBGDEEJGEGAA.jirka@jimaz.cz>


Hi Tono,

Concerning vertical stacking of OWA or other Yagi - there is no practical
worth mentioning difference on HF.
There is a significant difference while stacking various LONG VHF Yagis for
EME or Contesting purposes, but it is different more complicated case very
nicely studied on the both SM.... www.

I do believe I have came with some answers to all your questions. What I
wanted to say is that in some sort of propagation the antennas are too close
and you are getting nothing, in other you might win a lot, but as I do
believe you do not loose concerning signal in the air.

What you lose in any case is time, aluminium, cables... MONEY etc...., but
it is a different story, better not to count because if you start the only
thing which you can find is that you are completely crazy idiot. NOTHING
else.
OK let's make more antennas !

73!
Jiri
OK1RI



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From blueis@sprintmail.com  Sat Jul 28 13:44:44 2001
From: blueis@sprintmail.com (Gary B ( RVN 'BTO' ))
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 08:44:44 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Perhaps a few more details.....
Message-ID: <000b01c11763$14e90060$94026b83@sprintmail.com>


Tower is a Trylon 500 48feet.  TH7DX turned with a Ham IV.  Tower approx 60'
from house (at closest point).  ANTICIPATED cable/coax run length: 100'

How long does it take for a 5' x 5' x 6' hole filled with (what kind of)
concrete to cure??

QRV

Gary B
K3GB




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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Sat Jul 28 14:15:03 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 13:15:03 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] optimum height
Message-ID: <3B62BAD7.578A64C3@gloryroad.net>


I queries WX0B about the rule of thumb regarding "optimum" stacking
height.

Here was his response:
***********************************
For HF antennas over ground, W2PV did the math correctly and the
formula is SQ rt of boom length is the widest stacking distance you
should use on a yagi. The results are in boom lengths just as you
state.

Also a model should be run to verify no strange pattern lobes are
created in the stack.

***********************************

Note the origin was not via emperical results but is based in
mathematics.

The fact that one can do detailed analytical calcs that in many cases
agree with this "rule of thumb" support its use as an intial point for
optimization studies.

Clearly the "bad lobes" one is trying to squish into desirable lobes
is a function of antenna height.  The variables of stack spacing an
antenna phasing are the only things left to play with after the top
antenna height is fixed.  No doubt there optimum spacings which
deviate from the rule of thumb.  

We are so fortunate to have tools available to do the design fine
tuning.
I can't imagine one spending kilobucks on a stack and not modeling
them with these tools.

73 de Brian/K3KO


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From btippett@alum.mit.edu  Sat Jul 28 13:17:29 2001
From: btippett@alum.mit.edu (Bill Tippett)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 13:17:29 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20010728121729.006cfe48@pop.vnet.net>


KQ2M:

"What happens if the elements are several feet in from the ends?
Do we still use the boomlength as expressed in wavelengths, or do we use the
actual length between the elements?"

Hi Bob et al!

        Boomlength is distance between reflector and the last director.  WX0B's
SQRT [boomlength] is only an approximation and you should model it exactly
as others have suggested.  My 10M antennas are .791 wl long, WX0B's model 
suggests .889 wl spacing, but EZNEC said 1.007 for maximum gain.  If you 
really want to do things right, use YO7 which will let you optimize much
more rapidly and flexibly than EZNEC.  K6STI is still in business and can
be contacted at k6sti@n2.net.  I put my KLM's up with stock dimensions since 
I was in a hurry, but later retuned them for ~1 dB more gain, ~8 dB more F/B
and better bandwidth over 28.0-28.8. 

        I believe better RX patterns are more important than small improvements
in gain, so I optimized with higher weighting to F/B.  I also discovered that
better F/B can be obtained with wider separations.  You can see this in YO7
as you optimize with different stack separations.  I verified the F/B using 
another RX antenna ~500' away from the stack.

        Another point...YO7 would allow you to mount the elements at the
ends of your boom and take full advantage of the boom length you have.  It's
a waste to not use every available inch of boom you have since the wind
loading, weight, etc are essentially the same.  If you have several stacks,
the cost of YO7 would be well repaid IMHO.

        I'm very happy with my stack now...it holds alltime USA SOSB10 records
for both CQ WW's, both CQ WPX's, ARRL DX SSB and ARRL 10 CW (missed ARRL DX CW
by 0.21% last year and it appears I missed it for 2001 also...connector failure
during the middle of EU run!)

                                                73,  Bill  W4ZV

P.S.  This is not a paid YO7 commercial...I just happen to be a big fan of it
because it has worked so well for me!



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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Sat Jul 28 14:39:39 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 13:39:39 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
References: <1.5.4.32.20010728121729.006cfe48@pop.vnet.net>
Message-ID: <3B62C09B.433F2D00@gloryroad.net>


Bill,

I understand you did extensive analyses considering the terrain around
you.  To what extent did this impact the stack spacing and/or final
antenna heights?

73 de Brian/K3KO

Bill Tippett wrote:
> 
> KQ2M:
> 
> "What happens if the elements are several feet in from the ends?
> Do we still use the boomlength as expressed in wavelengths, or do we use the
> actual length between the elements?"
> 
> Hi Bob et al!
> 
>         Boomlength is distance between reflector and the last director.  WX0B's
> SQRT [boomlength] is only an approximation and you should model it exactly
> as others have suggested.  My 10M antennas are .791 wl long, WX0B's model
> suggests .889 wl spacing, but EZNEC said 1.007 for maximum gain.  If you
> really want to do things right, use YO7 which will let you optimize much
> more rapidly and flexibly than EZNEC.  K6STI is still in business and can
> be contacted at k6sti@n2.net.  I put my KLM's up with stock dimensions since
> I was in a hurry, but later retuned them for ~1 dB more gain, ~8 dB more F/B
> and better bandwidth over 28.0-28.8.
> 
>         I believe better RX patterns are more important than small improvements
> in gain, so I optimized with higher weighting to F/B.  I also discovered that
> better F/B can be obtained with wider separations.  You can see this in YO7
> as you optimize with different stack separations.  I verified the F/B using
> another RX antenna ~500' away from the stack.
> 
>         Another point...YO7 would allow you to mount the elements at the
> ends of your boom and take full advantage of the boom length you have.  It's
> a waste to not use every available inch of boom you have since the wind
> loading, weight, etc are essentially the same.  If you have several stacks,
> the cost of YO7 would be well repaid IMHO.
> 
>         I'm very happy with my stack now...it holds alltime USA SOSB10 records
> for both CQ WW's, both CQ WPX's, ARRL DX SSB and ARRL 10 CW (missed ARRL DX CW
> by 0.21% last year and it appears I missed it for 2001 also...connector failure
> during the middle of EU run!)
> 
>                                                 73,  Bill  W4ZV
> 
> P.S.  This is not a paid YO7 commercial...I just happen to be a big fan of it
> because it has worked so well for me!
> 
> -----
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From W8JI@contesting.com  Sat Jul 28 16:44:30 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 11:44:30 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] optimum height
In-Reply-To: <3B62BAD7.578A64C3@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <200107281548.f6SFmkZ25012@paris.akorn.net>


Hi Brian,

I don't understand what the following means. Is something wrong? 

> I queries WX0B about the rule of thumb regarding "optimum" stacking
> height.
> 
> Here was his response:
> ***********************************
> For HF antennas over ground, W2PV did the math correctly and the
> formula is SQ rt of boom length is the widest stacking distance you
> should use on a yagi. The results are in boom lengths just as you
> state.

My 40 meter yagi has a 47 foot boom. Optimum stacking distance 
for gain is ~90 feet, depending on array mean height.

Using that formula, I should stack my 40 meter beams sqrt of 47, 
or  7  feet apart MAXIMUM?? A 1 WL boom antenna would stack 
at .7WL...which also would be much less than optimum 
....although getting closer.

Was something stated or conveyed incorrectly above, or is 
something missing? It clearly is not correct.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 


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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Sat Jul 28 17:06:25 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:06:25 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk]
Message-ID: <001e01c1177f$e847f580$0983c640@spelunk.sueno>


Gary:

     I have just one word for you.  Are you listening?
http://www.qsl.net/n1lo/towers.txt  .


73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
P.S.  Let us know what you think of Mark's site.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary B ( RVN 'BTO' ) <blueis@sprintmail.com>
To: towertalk@contesting.com <towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Friday, July 27, 2001 10:22 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk]


>
>Greetings to all...
>
>As the newest of the TT Newbies, I continued to be marvelled by the scope
of
>information passing between the group members.  A BIG tip o' the hat to you
>all.
>
>However, most info exchanged in this forum deals with specific issues.  As
>someone getting on HF after a thirty-year absence, I am planning to install
>a tower and HF yagi.  My question:  Is there a single source of information
>for tower installation, grounding, cable routing, etc??  I need basic
>information... perhaps a compilation of 'best practices'.  I recognize that
>EVERY installation is different.  But there has to be a book or something
>that reminds me, for example, to ground my coax at the point of entry into
>the house...  isn't there?!?  What are the basic procedures/tasks/practices
>to install a tower and HF yagi??
>
>I would like to end with a suggestion.  And I am very serious!  I believe
>this group should undertake the project of writing a book.  The book should
>address each of the issues associated with tower, antenna, rotor, etc.
>installation/maintenance.  Many individuals in the mail-list have specific
>interests and expertise.  Let these people write the chapters on those
>issues.  Grounding/Lightning protection is a issue that comes to mind as an
>example.  Not interested in putting this together as a commercial venture??
>Put it on the web!  I would bet that it would be one of the most-visited
ham
>sites on the 'Net!!
>
>Well, anyway...  thanks for the info I've gleaned so far.  My tower is due
>to arrive late August.  I've got a lot to do until then.  I just wish I
knew
>what it was!
>
>Gary B
>K3GB
>RVN BTO
>
>
>
>-----
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>



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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Sat Jul 28 17:10:52 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:10:52 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] painting and camoflage
Message-ID: <001f01c1177f$ea936c20$0983c640@spelunk.sueno>


Check out the QST for April of 1966.  Similar article on painting towers.
Also includes how-to article on using very long coax as a dummy load.  Don't
try this at home.

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: K7GCO@aol.com <K7GCO@aol.com>
To: towertalk@contesting.com <towertalk@contesting.com>; w9ol@billnjudy.com
<w9ol@billnjudy.com>
Date: Friday, July 27, 2001 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] painting and camoflage


>
>In a message dated 7/27/01 10:44:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>w9ol@billnjudy.com writes:<<
> I purchased a military surplus camouflaged antenna a couple of years ago.
> Placed it in the garage when I got home and haven't been able to find that
> sucker since!
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
> I don't jog, it makes the ice jump right out of my glass.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill H. in Chicagoland
> w9ol@billnjudy.com
>  >
>
>I was at the Rocky Mt Arsenal in Denver while in the Army in 53 where they
>made the G Gasses etc. Some "Invisible Paint" was developed.  What ever was
>painted with it disappeared.  We called the Pentagon about it and while
their
>investigators were on the way there to evaluate it--some damn fool painted
>the can it was in and we haven't been able to find that sucker either.
>
>We developed some "Dehydrated Water" which was great for desert troops.  It
>came in 8 and 12 oz packages (powdered Hydrogen and Oxygen) which was
poured
>into a canteen and you just--add water.  The water was the water activator.
>These are absolutely true stories--I just made them up.  K7GCO
>
>
>-----
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>



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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Sat Jul 28 17:18:19 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 16:18:19 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] optimum height
References: <200107281548.f6SFmkZ25012@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <3B62E5CB.9478C118@gloryroad.net>


As stated originally the boom length in the formula is in wavelengths.
A 47' boom is about .7 wavelength on 40 meters.  The formula predicts
a spacing of .84 wavelenth or about 56 feet.

73

Tom Rauch wrote:
> 
> Hi Brian,
> 
> I don't understand what the following means. Is something wrong?
> 
> > I queries WX0B about the rule of thumb regarding "optimum" stacking
> > height.
> >
> > Here was his response:
> > ***********************************
> > For HF antennas over ground, W2PV did the math correctly and the
> > formula is SQ rt of boom length is the widest stacking distance you
> > should use on a yagi. The results are in boom lengths just as you
> > state.
> 
> My 40 meter yagi has a 47 foot boom. Optimum stacking distance
> for gain is ~90 feet, depending on array mean height.
> 
> Using that formula, I should stack my 40 meter beams sqrt of 47,
> or  7  feet apart MAXIMUM?? A 1 WL boom antenna would stack
> at .7WL...which also would be much less than optimum
> ....although getting closer.
> 
> Was something stated or conveyed incorrectly above, or is
> something missing? It clearly is not correct.
> 73, Tom W8JI
> W8JI@contesting.com


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From craigmc@pacbell.net  Sat Jul 28 17:23:48 2001
From: craigmc@pacbell.net (Craig McCartney)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 09:23:48 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Large Navy Antenna Farm in N. California
In-Reply-To: <013901c11719$4b326660$b22c56d1@ae.ge.com>
Message-ID: <000701c11781$ae6d4020$0201a8c0@160Montalvo>


Mark,

What you saw are two different HF transmit sites and a separate housing
facility.  To wit:

- The Northern-most site is the former Voice of America Dixon Relay Station.
It occupies one section, 640 acres of land.  There are two dipole curtain
arrays, suspended between 340 foot towers.  One is aimed across Hawaii
toward VK land for Pacific coverage and the other on the great circle toward
China for coverage of Asia.  The site also contains numerous rhombics on
various bearings.  All antennas are fed with 300-ohm open wire line, capable
of 250 KW, AM which was the output level of the three Collins transmitters
used by VOA.  Our company, Globe Wireless now owns the site.  We provide HF
maritime email services.  Space at this site is also subleased to ARINC;
they transmit HF voice and data to commercial aircraft from there.

- Directly adjacent to the south and west is three-quarters of a section,
960 acre, transmit site.  Although is started as a Navy site, call sign NPG,
it is now used by all branches of the military (and probably other gov't
agencies).  The most notable feature is the ELF vertical antenna on either
70 kHz or 15 kHz, I don't recall which.  The rest of the land is covered by
a large number of wideband conical antennas for frequency agility and a
number of towers with rotatable LPA arrays.  Last time I visited, about 5
years ago, the building housed a bunch of Harris 10 KW transmitters -
probably something like 3 rows of twelve - plus one high power ELF
transmitter.  This site uses buried coax exclusively.

- I don't know much about the housing site you saw.  It is directly west of
the former VOA site and is now abandoned.

Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Mark Fancher
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 8:57 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Large Navy Antenna Farm in N. California



A few years ago, I was stationed at Travis AFB, CA near Sacramento.  One
day, I was taking a ride through the countryside when I came across a huge -
I mean huge antenna farm.  It had all kinds of very tall towers, shorter
towers and curtain arrays.  It was a ham's fantasy come true!

I remember it was a Navy installation, but it didn't seem to be active
anymore.  In fact, from what I recall, the base housing looked like it had
been converted into county government housing for poor immigrant workers.

This installation was about 10-20 miles north of Vacaville.

Does anyone know what this base was used for, and is it still used by remote
control?

Maybe someone on Tower Talk was actually stationed there?

Mark Fancher, WO9G
mmfancher@earthlink.net



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From btippett@alum.mit.edu  Sat Jul 28 16:32:46 2001
From: btippett@alum.mit.edu (Bill Tippett)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 16:32:46 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20010728153246.006c0ff8@pop.vnet.net>


K3KO:
>I understand you did extensive analyses considering the terrain around
>you.  To what extent did this impact the stack spacing and/or final
>antenna heights?

     Yes and no...I did use N6BV's Terrain Analysis but primarily to help me
learn how to use the stacks...i.e. best takeoff angles vs azimuth vs time of
day.  For each contest, I usually make a chart by UTC hour showing which
directions and combinations of the 3-stack should be best.  Of course
nothing beats checking actual signal levels (and TOA's) during the contest
but it also helps to have a general idea of what you should be doing
(especially for when your brain gets tired!)

     YO7 assumes flat terrain but can output a file in AO format which can
then be used to model local terrain effects.  I do not have AO and my
surrounding terrain is not extreme so I felt that was an unnecessary
exercise.  I did verify that my measured F/B for the stack was close
(actually a bit better) to what YO7 predicted so I have confidence that
YO7's assumptions are working OK for my case.  W4AN says his mountaintop
terrain works better with closer stack spacings than I've found to be
optimum so he obviously believes complete AO modeling is necessary for his
location.  

     One related and interesting thing happened when I measured my actual
F/B.  The F/B for a single antenna was MUCH better than YO7 predicted so I
mentioned this to K6STI.  Brian then modeled the stack in AO and found that
the presence of the undriven antenna significantly (5-6 dB I recall)
improved the F/B of a single driven antenna...and this was with them spaced
over 1 wavelength apart!

     Anyway, it's been a fun learning experience and I continue to be
surprised by some of the things I see (like long path JA's often being at
high angles!)

                                                   73,  Bill  W4ZV



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From n0tt1@juno.com  Sat Jul 28 16:46:41 2001
From: n0tt1@juno.com (n0tt1@juno.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 16:46:41 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] placing electrical power wire inside PVC along with coax
Message-ID: <20010728.165713.-138405.0.n0tt1@juno.com>


Hi John,

I have my coax runs underground in 4" PVC pipe.  Along
with that is a run of 12-2 w/ground UF cable...intended
for direct burial.  At the shack end, I have a flexible cord
and plug to connect the power from a "ground fault" (GFCI)
protected outlet.   No electrical noise has been noted...
plugged in or not.

If I had to do it all over again, I would spend some extra
money and install some smaller, thin PVC tubes inside the
larger 4" tube (and number them).  The reason for this is
that as more cables are installed, especially stiffer hardline,
there is a tendancy for the additional cable to become
wrapped around or interleaved with the resident cables.
IOW, they can become a tangled mess and be very difficult
to pull.  

Thin (about 1/16") wall PVC with "belled" ends
can be purchased at local farm supply stores...comes in
20 ft lengths.

A "pulling rope" can be installed in a "new" tube using a 
shop vacuum at one end and a plastic cup at the other,
trimmed to fit, and a string attached in the middle of the
cup.  Once the string is through, pull in a heavier cord.

Once a little field mouse ran in the tube there while
I has working...chased him out with the vacuum and cup
arrangement. :)

73,
Charlie, N0TT



On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 23:16:59 -0400 "molenda" <molenda@buffnet.net>
writes:
> 
> Hi Guys !  I am still working on my tower project.  I have decided 
> to use 3"
> PVC to carry the coax from the tower to the shack.  along with the 
> coax will
> be the rotor cable .  I had a Idea ! what about running a length of 
> outdoor
> electrical wire so that I can have power to the tower for an out let 
> for
> soldering guns , tools or a spot light ?  any ideas will this effect 
> the
> incoming signal ? will it couple with the coax or cause some sort of 
> noise
> when it is in use , being that it is so close to the coax  ?  Thanks 
> for
> your Help !!     John    KB2HUK
> 
> 
> -----
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> 

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From W9IXX@arrl.net  Sat Jul 28 18:03:49 2001
From: W9IXX@arrl.net (Philip Florig)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:03:49 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] placing electrical power wire inside PVC along
 with coax
In-Reply-To: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPAEHGCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>
References: <200107280315.XAA94875@buffnet4.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010728115306.078e75a0@mail.winstarmail.com>


Hi,
This is exactly what I am doing in Green Creek, NC at my mothers house.
I had about 30 min of time to run something from the well house to the
log house for ant feeds and etc.  The plumber had 3" PVC and had to make
one 90d bend and you guessed it, he only had one standard elbow. That's the
only mistake so far that was made.  Should be either two 45d or a sweeping
conduit elbow.  I did get 5 LMR400 coax plus one Wireman rotor cable and
one romex ac feed.  Also added one rope (actually only had some spare RG58)
in case have to pull another line.  Was a tight pull thru the elbow but
went ok and no signs of damage.

Hope this helps and keep up the good inputs here.   Read all and gain lots
of knowledge.   Tnx all.

73   Phil
At 01:11 7/28/2001 -0400, you wrote:

>John,
>
>Usually, there are local building codes that do not allow A/C power in the
>same conduit with other cables, especially if it is hard-wired to your
>electrical panel and especially outdoors.
>Also, that is not the way to ensure no interference between the A/C and your
>coax.
>
>But, there is a way to do what you want and not violate the codes and not
>have interference.  Just install the Romex cable (I'd suggest UF cable) and
>at the shack end of the cable put an electrical plug.  At the tower end, put
>a junction box and an electrical outlet.  When you need power at the tower,
>plug in the plug at the shack.  Presumably, you will be working on something
>at the tower and any interference in the coax will not be heard in the RX
>since you are at the tower.  When you are finished with the project, unplug
>the plug.
>
>Just remember to use the correct size wire in the UF cable for the distance
>you wish to run the cable. Check the ARRL Handbook or other electrical
>references for this wire size.
>
>Also, I would use a GFCI outlet into which I would plug in the cable at the
>shack end.  This is a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter that blows the
>built-in GFCI breaker, disconnecting the power to the cable, if the current
>being drawn in the ground wire is not the same as the current in the "hot"
>and "neutral" wires (within mili- or micro-Amperes).  That way, you don't
>get fried at the tower.
>
>73,
>
>Bill, N3RR
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of molenda
>Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 11:17 PM
>To: towertalk@contesting.com
>Subject: [TowerTalk] placing electrical power wire inside PVC along with
>coax
>
>
>
>Hi Guys !  I am still working on my tower project.  I have decided to use 3"
>PVC to carry the coax from the tower to the shack.  along with the coax will
>be the rotor cable .  I had a Idea ! what about running a length of outdoor
>electrical wire so that I can have power to the tower for an out let for
>soldering guns , tools or a spot light ?  any ideas will this effect the
>incoming signal ? will it couple with the coax or cause some sort of noise
>when it is in use , being that it is so close to the coax  ?  Thanks for
>your Help !!     John    KB2HUK
>
>
>-----
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>
>
>
>-----
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-----------------------------------------------
Philip Florig           e-mail:pflorig@ieee.org
PO Box 44                   (or):W9IXX@arrl.net
Worth, IL.  60482           amateur radio:W9IXX
USA                      also:J3X-T30,31,32,33P
                            team member:AH1A-J3A
-----------------------------------------------
Metro DX Club                    club call:W9TY
Oak Forest, IL.                   qsl via W9IXX
-----------------------------------------------



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From n4zr@contesting.com  Sat Jul 28 18:22:16 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 13:22:16 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] optimum height
In-Reply-To: <3B62E5CB.9478C118@gloryroad.net>
References: <200107281548.f6SFmkZ25012@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010728132216.009a7650@pop.abs.adelphia.net>


At 04:18 PM 7/28/01 +0000, alsopb wrote:
>
>As stated originally the boom length in the formula is in wavelengths.
>A 47' boom is about .7 wavelength on 40 meters.  The formula predicts
>a spacing of .84 wavelenth or about 56 feet.

I think it's fairly well understood that stack spacing for HF (with real
ground a couple of wavelengths below the stack) is quite a different matter
than VHF/UHF.  What intrigues me are the "sweet spots" in HF stacking --
for example, 1X/2X spacing, such as 50 and 100 feet, or 1X/2X/3X
(50/100/150 ft)for that matter.  It appears from modeling that these
spacings redistribute power out of high-angle minor lobes and into the
first forward lobe.  This is even the case where inter-yagi spacings are
far from optimum, as for example with 8.5 dBi yagis spaced 30/60/90.
Suppression of high-angle lobes is quite evident on all 3 bands of
interest, even though the spacing varies from <1/2 wl to almost one full wl.

73, Pete N4ZR







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From ag0n@arrl.net  Sat Jul 28 18:38:36 2001
From: ag0n@arrl.net (Gary McDuffie, Sr.)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 11:38:36 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Large Navy Antenna Farm in N. California
In-Reply-To: <000701c11781$ae6d4020$0201a8c0@160Montalvo>
References: <013901c11719$4b326660$b22c56d1@ae.ge.com> <000701c11781$ae6d4020$0201a8c0@160Montalvo>
Message-ID: <ist5mt09r4k4cs2i38kt65qucvd56987ui@4ax.com>


On Sat, 28 Jul 2001 09:23:48 -0700, Craig McCartney wrote:

> Although is started as a Navy site, call sign NPG,

Wow.. does that bring back memories.  I used to listen to the constant
VVV NPG NPG NPG on 4.00x MHz as a kid in the late 50s, early 60s.  They
had a heck of a signal in Eureka.  When I got my novice ticket, I used
to sit for hours and practice to see if I could make my fist sound
exactly like their signal.  I got quite good at it and still have it.
Too bad I don't use it much anymore!  ;o)

Gary

ag0n at arrl dot net
http colon slash slash mcduffie dot ws
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From ag0n@arrl.net  Sat Jul 28 18:42:05 2001
From: ag0n@arrl.net (Gary McDuffie, Sr.)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 11:42:05 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Large Navy Antenna Farm in N. California
In-Reply-To: <000701c11781$ae6d4020$0201a8c0@160Montalvo>
References: <013901c11719$4b326660$b22c56d1@ae.ge.com> <000701c11781$ae6d4020$0201a8c0@160Montalvo>
Message-ID: <v8u5mtsobd759ml0q2m787bkm6rlkpkhcj@4ax.com>


On Sat, 28 Jul 2001 09:23:48 -0700, Craig McCartney wrote:

Another WOW!  After sending that last response, I just noticed whose
name was on it.  Long time no hear/see, Craig.  Hope all is well with
you.

Gary

ag0n at arrl dot net
http colon slash slash mcduffie dot ws
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From n4kg@juno.com  Sat Jul 28 19:45:35 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:45:35 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] optimum height
Message-ID: <20010728.130127.-200959.1.N4KG@juno.com>


A  FULL  Wavelength on 40M is 140 ft.
A HALF WAVE Dipole is 66 ft allowing ~5% for end effects.
A 47 ft boom is .335 WL.  The square root is .58  sq rt WL
(whatever the ***? those units represent).  If we accept that
the units should be WL, that corresponds to 81 ft which is 
close to optimum.  Actually, stacked 2L40's exhibit peak 
gain when stacked at 80 and 160 ft.

Tom  N4KG

On Sat, 28 Jul 2001 16:18:19 +0000 alsopb <alsopb@gloryroad.net> writes:
> 
> As stated originally the boom length in the formula is in 
> wavelengths.
> A 47' boom is about .7 wavelength on 40 meters.  The formula 
> predicts
> a spacing of .84 wavelenth or about 56 feet.
> 
> 73
> 
> Tom Rauch wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Brian,
> > 
> > I don't understand what the following means. Is something wrong?
> > 
> > > I queries WX0B about the rule of thumb regarding "optimum" 
> stacking
> > > height.
> > >
> > > Here was his response:
> > > ***********************************
> > > For HF antennas over ground, W2PV did the math correctly and the
> > > formula is SQ rt of boom length is the widest stacking distance 
> you
> > > should use on a yagi. The results are in boom lengths just as 
> you
> > > state.
> > 
> > My 40 meter yagi has a 47 foot boom. Optimum stacking distance
> > for gain is ~90 feet, depending on array mean height.
> > 
> > Using that formula, I should stack my 40 meter beams sqrt of 47,
> > or  7  feet apart MAXIMUM?? A 1 WL boom antenna would stack
> > at .7WL...which also would be much less than optimum
> > ....although getting closer.
> > 
> > Was something stated or conveyed incorrectly above, or is
> > something missing? It clearly is not correct.
> > 73, Tom W8JI
> > W8JI@contesting.com
> 
> 
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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Sat Jul 28 19:32:41 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 18:32:41 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] optimum height
References: <20010728.130127.-200959.1.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3B630549.2A4A8285@gloryroad.net>


OOps. Thinking of a 67 foot dipole in the math.  Of course the
wavelenth should be about 140'. (the product of  approx 3'/M X 40M
much greater than 67' DUH!)

73 de Brian/K3KO

n4kg@juno.com wrote:
> 
> A  FULL  Wavelength on 40M is 140 ft.
> A HALF WAVE Dipole is 66 ft allowing ~5% for end effects.
> A 47 ft boom is .335 WL.  The square root is .58  sq rt WL
> (whatever the ***? those units represent).  If we accept that
> the units should be WL, that corresponds to 81 ft which is
> close to optimum.  Actually, stacked 2L40's exhibit peak
> gain when stacked at 80 and 160 ft.
> 
> Tom  N4KG
> 
> On Sat, 28 Jul 2001 16:18:19 +0000 alsopb <alsopb@gloryroad.net> writes:
> >
> > As stated originally the boom length in the formula is in
> > wavelengths.
> > A 47' boom is about .7 wavelength on 40 meters.  The formula
> > predicts
> > a spacing of .84 wavelenth or about 56 feet.
> >
> > 73
> >
> > Tom Rauch wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Brian,
> > >
> > > I don't understand what the following means. Is something wrong?
> > >
> > > > I queries WX0B about the rule of thumb regarding "optimum"
> > stacking
> > > > height.
> > > >
> > > > Here was his response:
> > > > ***********************************
> > > > For HF antennas over ground, W2PV did the math correctly and the
> > > > formula is SQ rt of boom length is the widest stacking distance
> > you
> > > > should use on a yagi. The results are in boom lengths just as
> > you
> > > > state.
> > >
> > > My 40 meter yagi has a 47 foot boom. Optimum stacking distance
> > > for gain is ~90 feet, depending on array mean height.
> > >
> > > Using that formula, I should stack my 40 meter beams sqrt of 47,
> > > or  7  feet apart MAXIMUM?? A 1 WL boom antenna would stack
> > > at .7WL...which also would be much less than optimum
> > > ....although getting closer.
> > >
> > > Was something stated or conveyed incorrectly above, or is
> > > something missing? It clearly is not correct.
> > > 73, Tom W8JI
> > > W8JI@contesting.com
> >
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
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From W8JI@contesting.com  Sun Jul 29 00:10:20 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 19:10:20 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] optimum height
In-Reply-To: <20010728.130127.-200959.1.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <200107282314.f6SNEeZ32727@paris.akorn.net>


Hi Tom,

> A  FULL  Wavelength on 40M is 140 ft.
> A HALF WAVE Dipole is 66 ft allowing ~5% for end effects.
> A 47 ft boom is .335 WL.  The square root is .58  sq rt WL
> (whatever the ***? those units represent).  If we accept that
> the units should be WL, that corresponds to 81 ft which is 
> close to optimum.  Actually, stacked 2L40's exhibit peak 
> gain when stacked at 80 and 160 ft.

But that's true even when the booms are only 5 feet long with two 
elements, or if they are 50 feet long with three elements! 

As a matter of fact, it is true if they are dipoles with no boom at all! 

It seems a more accurate rule of thumb would be a minimum of 
5/8th wl separation, and then some other number mixed in as the 
antenna becomes more directional. One problem would come if 
ground reflection happens to force a null where stacking spacing 
forces a null. In that case there would be minimal gain.

Whatever anyone does, they certainly should model the antenna. I 
think that is the main point.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 


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From w7ti@dslextreme.com  Sun Jul 29 00:16:08 2001
From: w7ti@dslextreme.com (Bill Turner)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 16:16:08 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Adjustable lanyard
Message-ID: <tkh6mtsioqmaqhm66jt460beaei4um1df8@4ax.com>


I'm looking for an adjustable safety lanyard.  I have a tapered tower
which I like to climb with the lanyard attached to my safety belt.
Because of the taper, I actually have three different lanyards attached,
which I change as the tower diameter gets smaller.  I know lots of guys
climb without a lanyard until they reach the working area, but I like to
have it on the whole way up and down.

So, does anyone know of one which has some kind of slide mechanism for
quickly shortening or lengthening the lanyard?  That three-lanyard
business is a PITA.

Thanks,

Bill, W7TI 


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From k1dg@ix.netcom.com  Sun Jul 29 00:23:20 2001
From: k1dg@ix.netcom.com (Doug Grant)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 19:23:20 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hawks
Message-ID: <00af01c117bc$4a942d80$f60df7a5@grant>


I haven't been subscribing to TowerTalk until now, so I apologize if this
has been covered before...

Two hawks have taken up residence in the woods somewhere in the
neighborhood. These are serious birds - I think they are Red-tailed hawks,
because that seems to be the most common variety around here (NH). Wingspan
seems to be about 5-6 feet and they have big, sharp, nasty-looking hooked
beaks. They make a screeching sound whenever they are in the trees in our
yard and I am walking around outside; they are apparently protesting my
presence on "their" turf.

I need to make some repairs at the top of my tower. I have seen one of the
hawks perched on my 40M beam. I think he may think it is HIS beam now.

Anyone have experience with large predatory birds attacking tower climbers?

Doug, K1DG



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From jonk@jskent.com  Sun Jul 29 01:25:00 2001
From: jonk@jskent.com (Jonathan Kaplan)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:25:00 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hawks
In-Reply-To: <00af01c117bc$4a942d80$f60df7a5@grant>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010728172416.00ac6640@mail.vcnet.com>


I have a 55ft tower in my backyard with a TH7DXX and an M2 40mt dipole. The 
birds, Redtails and Shrikes included,  only occasionally sit on the 
antennas looking for food. They tend to protect nests, so unless there is a 
nest in the tower, they should move away when you approach.  Other than 
that, the only hazard I've experienced is the liquid type.

73
Jonathan KO6XS


At 07:23 PM 7/28/01 -0400, you wrote:

I haven't been subscribing to TowerTalk until now, so I apologize if this
has been covered before...

Two hawks have taken up residence in the woods somewhere in the
neighborhood. These are serious birds - I think they are Red-tailed hawks,
because that seems to be the most common variety around here (NH). Wingspan
seems to be about 5-6 feet and they have big, sharp, nasty-looking hooked
beaks. They make a screeching sound whenever they are in the trees in our
yard and I am walking around outside; they are apparently protesting my
presence on "their" turf.



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From dxdog@rcn.com  Sun Jul 29 01:32:34 2001
From: dxdog@rcn.com (Jerry Keller)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 20:32:34 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hawks
References: <00af01c117bc$4a942d80$f60df7a5@grant>
Message-ID: <007401c117c5$f6cb4f80$1d613bd0@j5u7j4>


Doug:
You should be safe if you keep a bright orange lanyard attached to the tower
at all times. The hawk will quickly see the lanyard and realize that he
probably cannot carry you off.  Faced with the necessity to either eat you
there or leave you alone, he will likely opt for the latter, at least for
several hours, until he gets hungry enough to try it. This should give you
enough time to make your antenna adjustments, but do try to hurry as these
hawks can be somewhat unpredictable. Good luck.
K3MGT

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Grant" <k1dg@ix.netcom.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 7:23 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hawks


>
> I haven't been subscribing to TowerTalk until now, so I apologize if this
> has been covered before...
>
> Two hawks have taken up residence in the woods somewhere in the
> neighborhood. These are serious birds - I think they are Red-tailed hawks,
> because that seems to be the most common variety around here (NH).
Wingspan
> seems to be about 5-6 feet and they have big, sharp, nasty-looking hooked
> beaks. They make a screeching sound whenever they are in the trees in our
> yard and I am walking around outside; they are apparently protesting my
> presence on "their" turf.
>
> I need to make some repairs at the top of my tower. I have seen one of the
> hawks perched on my 40M beam. I think he may think it is HIS beam now.
>
> Anyone have experience with large predatory birds attacking tower
climbers?
>
> Doug, K1DG
>
>
>
> -----
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From k9zm@frontiernet.net  Sun Jul 29 01:47:14 2001
From: k9zm@frontiernet.net (Greg Gobleman)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 19:47:14 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hawks
References: <00af01c117bc$4a942d80$f60df7a5@grant>
Message-ID: <000f01c117c8$08dec600$53ab82d1@k9zm>


Tower climbers no, tree climbers, yes.  There are always stories
about, mostly owls, mistaking a hat on a deer hunter climbing a
tree to get into the stand, as edible.  Old camo looks ok up
close but at a distance when well weathered will appear light
blue and solid.  In the early light I would expect that sort of
thing to happen.

I have toyed with birds of prey when hunting and sitting in a
deer stand, by just wiggling a finger to see if they will pick it
up.  They have amazing eyesight.  Wiggled fingers are best kept
hidden.

Back on topic, as far as towers go, I would do my best to always
be clipped on just in case they mean to dispute the territory.
Probably wise to do so at all times just in case.  Never know if
your going to find a wasp nest up there.  Hats, gloves, and
sunglasses will help protect you some.

The last comment from here.  Most, if not all, birds of prey are
protected and cannot be harmed in any way in this country.  It
might just be "their" turf till they want to leave.

Good Luck,
Greg K9ZM



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From FireBrick" <w9ol@billnjudy.com  Sun Jul 29 01:54:24 2001
From: FireBrick" <w9ol@billnjudy.com (FireBrick)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 19:54:24 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hawks
References: <00af01c117bc$4a942d80$f60df7a5@grant> <000f01c117c8$08dec600$53ab82d1@k9zm>
Message-ID: <001101c117c9$05271fc0$0201a8c0@billnjudy>


If the bird of prey considers the tower as his turf and stays there, do you
then have to enter contests at multi ops?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Gobleman" <k9zm@frontiernet.net>
To: "Doug Grant" <k1dg@ix.netcom.com>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Hawks


>
> Tower climbers no, tree climbers, yes.  There are always stories
> about, mostly owls, mistaking a hat on a deer hunter climbing a
> tree to get into the stand, as edible.  Old camo looks ok up
> close but at a distance when well weathered will appear light
> blue and solid.  In the early light I would expect that sort of
> thing to happen.
>
> I have toyed with birds of prey when hunting and sitting in a
> deer stand, by just wiggling a finger to see if they will pick it
> up.  They have amazing eyesight.  Wiggled fingers are best kept
> hidden.
>
> Back on topic, as far as towers go, I would do my best to always
> be clipped on just in case they mean to dispute the territory.
> Probably wise to do so at all times just in case.  Never know if
> your going to find a wasp nest up there.  Hats, gloves, and
> sunglasses will help protect you some.
>
> The last comment from here.  Most, if not all, birds of prey are
> protected and cannot be harmed in any way in this country.  It
> might just be "their" turf till they want to leave.
>
> Good Luck,
> Greg K9ZM
>
>
>
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>



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From wa2moe@doitnow.com  Sun Jul 29 02:34:04 2001
From: wa2moe@doitnow.com (Stu Greene)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 18:34:04 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hawks
In-Reply-To: <001101c117c9$05271fc0$0201a8c0@billnjudy>
References: <00af01c117bc$4a942d80$f60df7a5@grant>
 <000f01c117c8$08dec600$53ab82d1@k9zm>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010728182725.00a9f110@pop3.doitnow.com>


At 07:54 PM 7/28/01 -0500, Greg K9ZM wrote:

> > The last comment from here.  Most, if not all, birds of prey are
> > protected and cannot be harmed in any way in this country.  It
> > might just be "their" turf till they want to leave.

If I were prevented from climbing my tower by a hawk or any other critter, 
that's one law which would be broken quickly and permanently, with malice 
aforethought and in a premeditated manner.  Most cops here in AZ would be 
happy to do the job for me,  since it's becomming illegal to shoot or 
otherwise damage felons caught in the commission of a crime and they need 
the practice.




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From franknorton@home.com  Sun Jul 29 04:35:08 2001
From: franknorton@home.com (Frank Norton)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 23:35:08 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] HF Antenna Mfg
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010728214418.00a20090@mail.baycty1.mi.home.com>


Hello all,

I am in the market for a 40m rotatable dipole.  As well as a 20 meter yagi. 
Not a major challenge it would seem.  Well, I don't know how many of u have 
tried to purchase an HF antenna recently, but this past week I realized 
that there r only 2 major players making HF antennas--Force 12, and Moseley.

The rest that have current ads in QST, CQ, etc. r either custom order or 
only making VHF antennas "currently".  Please note, I did not contact any 
of the niche manufacturers for quads, LPDAs, or unusual/emerging designs.

For instance, calls to M2 went unanswered, but Texas Towers is "currently" 
only taking orders for their VHF antennas.  The M2 web site did have the 
selection of HF listed but r they really available or not?  Similar 
situation with Cushcraft (some dealers did offer seemingly random "in 
stock" merchandise--not restocking),,,,,,,

Does anyone know of a firm who is currently manufacturing and delivering HF 
Yagi's/rotatable dipoles?  Someone who is not using traps and is not just 
compiling orders until they have enough to justify a production run?  (for 
the 40 meter antenna I don't wish to purchase Force 12, though I do have a 
Sigma 40 vertical that is very sturdy.)

Thanks for any info u may provide!

Frank, KB8XU



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From franknorton@home.com  Sun Jul 29 04:54:15 2001
From: franknorton@home.com (Frank Norton)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 23:54:15 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hawks
In-Reply-To: <007401c117c5$f6cb4f80$1d613bd0@j5u7j4>
References: <00af01c117bc$4a942d80$f60df7a5@grant>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010728233658.00a1ae40@mail.baycty1.mi.home.com>


Hi Doug,

When I was a professor of medicine I worked occasional shifts in the 
Emergency Room.  All I can say is Hawk attacks are infrequent and usually 
not fatal...the worst u will probably get are a few scars.  Ah---what 
glorious stories u will have to tell!  In a way I almost envy u ur coming 
encounter with THE BIRDS!  ; o)

73 de frank kb8xu

At 08:32 PM 7/28/2001 -0400, you wrote:

>Doug:
>You should be safe if you keep a bright orange lanyard attached to the tower
>at all times. The hawk will quickly see the lanyard and realize that he
>probably cannot carry you off.  Faced with the necessity to either eat you
>there or leave you alone, he will likely opt for the latter, at least for
>several hours, until he gets hungry enough to try it. This should give you
>enough time to make your antenna adjustments, but do try to hurry as these
>hawks can be somewhat unpredictable. Good luck.
>K3MGT
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Doug Grant" <k1dg@ix.netcom.com>
>To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
>Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 7:23 PM
>Subject: [TowerTalk] Hawks
>
>
> >
> > I haven't been subscribing to TowerTalk until now, so I apologize if this
> > has been covered before...
> >
> > Two hawks have taken up residence >SNIP< I have seen one of the
> > hawks perched on my 40M beam. I think he may think it is HIS beam now.
> > >SNIP<
> > Anyone have experience with large predatory birds attacking tower
>climbers?
> >
> > Doug, K1DG



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From w7why@harborside.com  Sun Jul 29 02:53:09 2001
From: w7why@harborside.com (Tom Osborne)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 18:53:09 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hawks
References: <00af01c117bc$4a942d80$f60df7a5@grant>
Message-ID: <3B636C85.D680D4E6@harborside.com>




Doug Grant wrote:
> 

> Two hawks have taken up residence in the woods somewhere in the
> neighborhood. These are serious birds - I think they are Red-tailed hawks,

Hi Doug.

I think you best be careful how you handle them.  Redtail Hawks
are on the endangered species list here in Oregon.  A couple of
cutters for Weyerhaeuser here accidentally fell a fir tree with a
Redtail Hawks nest in it and Weyerhaeuser had to pay a big fine,
etc.  It definitely was a serious matter.  73
Tom W7WHY


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From Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com  Sun Jul 29 05:17:52 2001
From: Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com (Kenneth Hirschberg)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 21:17:52 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] HF Antenna Mfg
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010728214418.00a20090@mail.baycty1.mi.home.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c117e5$6ffff6c0$7167530c@ken>


Hello, Frank -
If your interest is in a _full-size_rotatable dipole, CAL-AV has them for
both 30 and 40M.  Please see description and specs. at: www.cal-av.com/
under "Radio Communications Products" then under "Antennas.  They are
available through Array Solutions, or direct.
Sincerely,
Ken K6HPX

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Norton" <franknorton@home.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 8:35 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] HF Antenna Mfg


>
> Hello all,
>
> I am in the market for a 40m rotatable dipole.  As well as a 20 meter
yagi.
> Not a major challenge it would seem.  Well, I don't know how many of u
have
> tried to purchase an HF antenna recently, but this past week I realized
> that there r only 2 major players making HF antennas--Force 12, and
Moseley.
>
> The rest that have current ads in QST, CQ, etc. r either custom order or
> only making VHF antennas "currently".  Please note, I did not contact any
> of the niche manufacturers for quads, LPDAs, or unusual/emerging designs.
>
> For instance, calls to M2 went unanswered, but Texas Towers is "currently"
> only taking orders for their VHF antennas.  The M2 web site did have the
> selection of HF listed but r they really available or not?  Similar
> situation with Cushcraft (some dealers did offer seemingly random "in
> stock" merchandise--not restocking),,,,,,,
>
> Does anyone know of a firm who is currently manufacturing and delivering
HF
> Yagi's/rotatable dipoles?  Someone who is not using traps and is not just
> compiling orders until they have enough to justify a production run?  (for
> the 40 meter antenna I don't wish to purchase Force 12, though I do have a
> Sigma 40 vertical that is very sturdy.)
>
> Thanks for any info u may provide!
>
> Frank, KB8XU
>
>
>
> -----
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>
>



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From aa4nu@ix.netcom.com  Sun Jul 29 06:02:05 2001
From: aa4nu@ix.netcom.com (Billy Cox)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 00:02:05 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hawks
References: <00af01c117bc$4a942d80$f60df7a5@grant>
Message-ID: <00e901c117eb$9dff6b40$6c3056d1@nec3>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Grant" <k1dg@ix.netcom.com>
 
>Two hawks have taken up residence ...
>These are serious birds ...
>They have big, sharp, nasty-looking hooked beaks ...
>They make a screeching sound ...
>They are apparently protesting my presence on "their" turf ...

Dear Doug,

Glad to see that the "gift(s)" from the Tennessee Contest Group 
have arrived there alive and well , and are doing a great job ... <smile>

BTW ... each of those birds do indeed have a name ...  yes, indeed!

The first one is                MY
The second one is FREQUENCY

Perhaps that is why they "protest your presence on THEIR turf" ?
You might try speaking to them, and see if they will "move" ... <G>

(others on here ... while Doug was watching the hawks, he missed 
the two "Tennessee ground hogs" we also sent doing what they do 
best ... Hint: CHOMP, CHOMP, CHOMP)

Aha ... It is great when a plan comes together !

"Very 73" from your friends behind the W/K/N-1 wall ...***

Billy AA4NU 

***for the humor challenged, this is all in fun ... 




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From k1ttt@berkshire.net  Sun Jul 29 11:12:00 2001
From: k1ttt@berkshire.net (David Robbins)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 11:12:00 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hawks
References: <00af01c117bc$4a942d80$f60df7a5@grant>
Message-ID: <3B63E170.AA512CF8@berkshire.net>


got lots of them around here, they often nest in trees at the edge of the field
the towers are in, about 100' away.  they make a racket but leave me alone.  

now the circling vultures are another story...

Doug Grant wrote:
> 
> I haven't been subscribing to TowerTalk until now, so I apologize if this
> has been covered before...
> 
> Two hawks have taken up residence in the woods somewhere in the
> neighborhood. These are serious birds - I think they are Red-tailed hawks,
> because that seems to be the most common variety around here (NH). Wingspan
> seems to be about 5-6 feet and they have big, sharp, nasty-looking hooked
> beaks. They make a screeching sound whenever they are in the trees in our
> yard and I am walking around outside; they are apparently protesting my
> presence on "their" turf.
> 
> I need to make some repairs at the top of my tower. I have seen one of the
> hawks perched on my 40M beam. I think he may think it is HIS beam now.
> 
> Anyone have experience with large predatory birds attacking tower climbers?
> 
> Doug, K1DG
> 
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com

-- 
David Robbins K1TTT
e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
web: http://www.k1ttt.net
AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net


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From w5kp@swbell.net  Sun Jul 29 13:26:46 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 07:26:46 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] HF Antenna Mfg
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010728214418.00a20090@mail.baycty1.mi.home.com>
Message-ID: <010001c11829$bc538340$da20c1cf@jkdesktop>


Frank, I can't imagine why you'd look any further than the Force 12 C4 at
$789 for the whole shebang in one unit.
73, Jerry W5KP

> I am in the market for a 40m rotatable dipole.  As well as a 20 meter
yagi.
> Not a major challenge it would seem.  Well, I don't know how many of u
have
> tried to purchase an HF antenna recently, but this past week I realized
> that there r only 2 major players making HF antennas--Force 12, and
Moseley.
>





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From kq2m@mags.net  Sun Jul 29 13:48:19 2001
From: kq2m@mags.net (Robert Shohet)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 08:48:19 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hawks
References: <00af01c117bc$4a942d80$f60df7a5@grant>
Message-ID: <006601c1182c$c0a2b1c0$7ab4f9d0@dchm7>


Geez....

You're lucky they are not Canadian Geese!

Bob KQ2M


---- Original Message -----
From: Doug Grant <k1dg@ix.netcom.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 7:23 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hawks


>
> I haven't been subscribing to TowerTalk until now, so I apologize if this
> has been covered before...
>
> Two hawks have taken up residence in the woods somewhere in the
> neighborhood. These are serious birds - I think they are Red-tailed hawks,
> because that seems to be the most common variety around here (NH).
Wingspan
> seems to be about 5-6 feet and they have big, sharp, nasty-looking hooked
> beaks. They make a screeching sound whenever they are in the trees in our
> yard and I am walking around outside; they are apparently protesting my
> presence on "their" turf.
>
> I need to make some repairs at the top of my tower. I have seen one of the
> hawks perched on my 40M beam. I think he may think it is HIS beam now.
>
> Anyone have experience with large predatory birds attacking tower
climbers?
>
> Doug, K1DG
>
>
>
> -----
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> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>
>



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From kq2m@mags.net  Sun Jul 29 14:03:14 2001
From: kq2m@mags.net (Robert Shohet)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 09:03:14 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] TowerTalk] Hawks
Message-ID: <001d01c1182e$d4e4a100$7ab4f9d0@dchm7>


I have a lot of them down here, including a few bald eagles!  (I am a few
miles from the Houstaonic River).  They get along pretty well with tower
climbers, every so often checking them out a little more closely.  Unless
there is actually a nest on the tower, they won't bother you.  Just make
sure that you take up a video camera - they are pretty awesome when they
come within thirty to fifty feet of where you are working.

Bob KQ2M

> > I haven't been subscribing to TowerTalk until now, so I apologize if
this
> > has been covered before...
> >
> > Two hawks have taken up residence in the woods somewhere in the
> > neighborhood. These are serious birds - I think they are Red-tailed
hawks,
> > because that seems to be the most common variety around here (NH).
> Wingspan
> > seems to be about 5-6 feet and they have big, sharp, nasty-looking
hooked
> > beaks. They make a screeching sound whenever they are in the trees in
our
> > yard and I am walking around outside; they are apparently protesting my
> > presence on "their" turf.
> >
> > I need to make some repairs at the top of my tower. I have seen one of
the
> > hawks perched on my 40M beam. I think he may think it is HIS beam now.
> >
> > Anyone have experience with large predatory birds attacking tower
> climbers?
> >
> > Doug, K1DG




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From btippett@alum.mit.edu  Sun Jul 29 13:48:10 2001
From: btippett@alum.mit.edu (Bill Tippett)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 13:48:10 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] The best stacking distance for long-boom yagis
 - 0.5 wavelength!!
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20010729124810.00676730@pop.vnet.net>


Hello Tonno, Jiri et al!

        I was curious about your statements:

Tonno ES5TV wrote:

>Maybe I should have emphasized in my post that I wanted to find the best
>stacking distance for contesting! Not to maximize F/B definitely.

        What are you trying to maximize for contesting?  Several years ago
I was of the opinion that poor F/B was actually desirable for contests,
especially when I was using only one antenna.  Having used my stack for a
couple of years, I now believe F/B is more important.  My reasoning is that
I believe a good pattern (F/B) is extremely important for hearing the very
weak stations better in heavy QRM.  If I want to hear in another direction,
for example EU and SA, I am more likely to spray my transmit signal to
cover both areas on transmit, but then listen only in the desired direction
for very weak signals by switching on receive.  The same may apply to
takeoff angles...I want to maximize my vertical angles on transmit, but
then I want to select the best combination to hear very weak signals.  I
think you are saying maximize for angle coverage but why not better F/B
also?

Jiri OK1RI wrote:

>2.ON HF I am sure that this is only one - less important point, what you
>really want to do is to cover as many vertical angles as possible. To
>achieve this you need to have the antennas closer.

        I also don't understand how moving antennas closer maximizes
vertical angle coverage...I think this would make the vertical angle smaller
(centered for the height of the stack midpoint).  I prefer a stack with fairly
wide vertical separation.  If signals are extremely low angle, the full
3-stack or top 2-stack combination will be best.  If signals are fairly
high angle, the lower 2-stack will be best.  If signals are very high
angle, the lower antenna alone will be best.  Maybe you are talking about
always using your stacks as full combinations and not switching them as I
do using the StackMatch (any combination of the 3 antennas).  Is that what
you mean?

        In my opinion the most important parameters to maximize are as
follows (approximately in order but #1 and #2 are very close):

1.  Azimuth angle coverage (not just beamwidth of a single Yagi but also the
ability to spray in multiple directions simultaneously)...this can of course
be accomplished by being able to independently rotate antennas in a single
stack or better yet have another separate set of antennnas that can easily
switched/combined for other directions.

2.  Vertical angle coverage (transmit with a broad vertical angle but switch
on receive to optimize S/N for weak signals).

3.  F/B or pattern of the array is very important when trying to optimize 
S/N when receiving weak signals.

4.  Forward gain is least important!  When 10M is wide open, a dB or two
is insignificant (S9 + 40 dB versus S9 + 41 dB).  This is also why guys 
who run illegal power are really wasting their efforts in the wrong area
IMHO!

        I would be curious to know your thoughts on the above.

                                                73,  Bill  W4ZV




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From K2we@aol.com  Sun Jul 29 16:23:54 2001
From: K2we@aol.com (K2we@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 11:23:54 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] HF Antenna Mfg
Message-ID: <a1.18de9772.2895848a@aol.com>


Frank,
    I've owned a Force 12 magnum 520/340 and it's a tuff act to follow. If 
that's a bit big for you, try the 240/420 which has 2 elements on 40 and 4 
elements on 20. I've used Force 12 antennas now for over 8 years and they are 
winners. I would go no further. The other company you mention is not what it 
used to be. If you have followed the many, many comments about there products 
from all corners of the world, I would stay very clear of them.

Good luck..

73  Steve/K2WE


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From kc5ajx@hotmail.com  Sun Jul 29 19:51:10 2001
From: kc5ajx@hotmail.com (Rick Bullon)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 18:51:10 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] modeling software
Message-ID: <F110SkcJse1fTvOSQeS0000da13@hotmail.com>


Hello All
I need software to model my new tower antenna setup. Since I plan on doing 
this only once I need some thing free or very cheap and simple to learn. It 
needs to be able to handle a 2 high tribander stack with a 2 el 40 meter 
beam shunt feed tower for 160 and 4 slopers on 80 to be used as a 4 SQ. Does 
such software exist?
If not is there anyone on here who really likes to model antennas willing to 
do it for me and maybe some terrain modeling also :)
73
Rick
KC5AJX

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



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From nwtncc@iswt.com  Sun Jul 29 20:01:11 2001
From: nwtncc@iswt.com (James C. Hall, M.D.)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 14:01:11 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Second floor shack ideas - please
Message-ID: <NDBBLGOPKLGOEOKNNINGIEOACAAA.nwtncc@iswt.com>


Hello:

I've been monitoring TT since this past Sept. and really enjoy the
discussions.  I am awaiting delivery of my first tower in 25 years - a UST
HDX570 - and have LOTS of questions.  I went to Dayton for the first time
this year and garnered lots of info including a Polyphaser manual.  Recently
there was a discussion about cable feed through and lightning protection.
I've gone through all the TT archives and some very nice web sites, which
have been all helpful, but nothing really addresses the problems of
grounding and lightning protection when your shack is on the 2nd floor.
I've tried some direct emailing and some have been most helpful - thanks
particularly to Dick Flanagan.

Here's my setup : when we built our home, which sits on 30 acres of rolling
hills, the XYL agreed to develop over the garage where I could have a
dedicated ham shack. Now, some mistakes were made (no, really!) and the
contractor's idea was to have a safety ground consisting of large gauge
copper wire which passes down behind the brick veneer to a ground rod.  The
rigs are attached to copper straps behind the desk and then attach to the
ground rod which is virtually underneath me. Additionally, a utility box was
placed in the drywall where two 1 inch electrical conduits went down behind
the brick, under the drive, and out to the proposed tower site (about 100 ft
away). Actually, plans are for two towers to include a smaller R25 tower for
satellite antennas.  The driveway has not been poured yet and consists of
simply 33C rock for now - so I can dig into it now if I choose. Now
obviously there are limited amounts of cable that can be introduced into
these small conduits. I was thinking about running something like LMR400 and
rotor control cabling down each conduit where I can then attach remote
antenna switches. Then after reading the interesting posts on lightnig
protection I started to worry. I may be able to dig up the ground rod under
me so as to attach a radial which would then connect to the tower ground
system - but where should the SPG be ? Conventional wisdom says outside the
shack. I have a window which faces the proposed tower.  I seem to remember a
window unit that could act as a SPG and then direct ground from there. I
would have to forget using the present conduits and go from the window box
with new larger PVC conduit. I also need to consider feeding wire antennas
for 80 and 160 meters. Oh, the antennas on the tower - Force 12 Mag 620/340
and 4BA separated by about 9 feet on a 20 foot Chrom-molly mast. The wind
figure for this county (which seems to come up alot on this reflector) is 70
MPH.

What say you, TT'ers.  What is the best solution to a second floor shack ?
Comments and criticism on any and all of this would be appreciated.

James C. Hall, MD
WB4YDL



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From w7ti@dslextreme.com  Sun Jul 29 20:35:43 2001
From: w7ti@dslextreme.com (Bill Turner)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 12:35:43 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Neat trick with Yaesu rotator
Message-ID: <41p8mt00q7ba8vrrnl0t4bsrm25aojnjdm@4ax.com>


Maybe this is old hat to some of you, but I found a neat way to use my
Yaesu G-1000DX rotator.

On the back is a switch used for calibration.  If you leave the switch
in the "calibrate" position, you can use the preset control as an
automatic control.  Normally, you have to turn the preset and press the
start button, but this way, you just turn the preset and the rotator
follows immediately.

The only possible drawback I can see is if you accidentally turn it back
while the motor is turning.  Might be hard on the gears, since the motor
would instantly reverse instead of stopping first.  That's probably why
the "normal" position doesn't work that way.

Anyway, if one is careful, it is a lot more convenient.

Comments will be appreciated.

73, Bill W7TI


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From w7ti@dslextreme.com  Sun Jul 29 21:39:48 2001
From: w7ti@dslextreme.com (Bill Turner)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 13:39:48 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Neat trick with Yaesu rotator
In-Reply-To: <41p8mt00q7ba8vrrnl0t4bsrm25aojnjdm@4ax.com>
References: <41p8mt00q7ba8vrrnl0t4bsrm25aojnjdm@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <j2t8mtcbehe3jnbjhahnjk875665gjaat7@4ax.com>


On Sun, 29 Jul 2001 12:35:43 -0700, Bill Turner wrote:

>Maybe this is old hat to some of you, but I found a neat way to use my
>Yaesu G-1000DX rotator.

_________________________________________________________

I should have pointed out that the first time you power up the rotator,
you do have to push the start button.  After that, it follows the preset
control automatically.

73, Bill W7TI


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From blueis@sprintmail.com  Mon Jul 30 00:20:45 2001
From: blueis@sprintmail.com (Gary B ( RVN 'BTO' ))
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 19:20:45 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] BIG thanks to all
Message-ID: <05d301c11885$19104c20$94026b83@sprintmail.com>


Fellows...

Thanks to all who contributed suggestions.  I have started to do the
research (reading, planning, etc.)... realizing that this just isn't as easy
as cementing a tower in the ground.  I will continue to 'read the mail' on
Tower Talk.  Seems there is always something to be gleened from the threads.

Who knows -- I might even get time to start the research I have wanted to do
for years:  In RVN we found that, if you BURY your antennas, incoming mortar
rounds can't knock them down.  We used buried antennas (dipoles) for backup
purposes.  Anyone on the list ever try BURIED antennas?!?

Again, many thanks.

Gary B
K3GB




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From bbuckles@web.as.net  Mon Jul 30 01:08:28 2001
From: bbuckles@web.as.net (Bill Buckles)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 17:08:28 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tri-Ex 471 tower installation
Message-ID: <B789F38C.575%bbuckles@pop3.as.net>



Need Tri-Ex 471  installation and maintenance instructions. Will pay for
copying, postage,  etc.

Thanks,
Bill Buckles, KG6AOC
bbuckles@as.net
13149 Elizabeth Lake Rd.
Leona Valley, Ca. 93551




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From K3BU@aol.com  Mon Jul 30 02:31:44 2001
From: K3BU@aol.com (K3BU@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 21:31:44 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] BIG thanks to all
Message-ID: <7f.17e76871.28961300@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/29/01 7:21:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
blueis@sprintmail.com writes:

>  We used buried antennas (dipoles) for backup
>  purposes.  Anyone on the list ever try BURIED antennas?!?
>  

Talk about concealed antenna!
Got one, loop burried around the property perimeter (abt 700 ft), about 1 
inch deep, using it for receiving with good preamp. (Sucks on transmit :-)

It was supposed to be dog radio fence, but dog got smart, didn't need no 
radio fence, so I put abt 600:50 ohm transformer in the loop and works well 
on receive when bands are noisy.

Yuri, K3BU


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From jayt@arraysolutions.com  Mon Jul 30 02:54:45 2001
From: jayt@arraysolutions.com (Jay Terleski)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 20:54:45 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Awesome HF Array Spotted
References: <5b.19504eaa.2893795e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00db01c118a1$549c1140$50e8fea9@dial.home.com>


Hello TTers and Henry,

The Antenna system has been going up for 3 weeks now, and we are finally
finished.  I hope to have time to get on the ham bands with it with the call
of K4A. But time is not on our side since there are 2 other towers to attend
too.

The system is 3 logs top one at 122 feet. Mid at 80, and lower at 40.
Phased in any combination of course, and  we can take the top one out 180
degrees of phase for higher angles.

We also installed NVIS antennas which are dipoles fed with a 600 ohm
ladderline, and we put up 4 900 ft longwires on tall poles, which are
playing very well for the missions these guys have in Africa.

The system was put up by Paul, K7PN Custom Metal Works, and myself as Array
Solutions.  Array is the prime contractor.

We are looking forward to getting an article in QST.  The Special Forces
seem very willing to let us discuss most of the system details. They are
most impressed.  The Ft Bragg area is interesting, we get a daily air show
from Pope AFB.  A10s, C17s, C5s, and other monster aircraft fly over our
heads all the time.  alot of helicopters too.  We lit the tower with a twin
obstruction light to keep em at a safe distance. 8o}

Jay


----- Original Message -----
From: <K4tmc@aol.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 9:11 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Awesome HF Array Spotted


>
> On the way back from a week-long business trip, I made a side visit to a
> surplus outlet in the Ft. Bragg, NC area this afternoon and spotted a new
> tower near the base.  What at first I took to be another cookie-cutter
cell
> tower turned out to be something else.  As I got closer there seemed to be
> some large horizontal attachments to this one.  As I drove closer it was
> evident that these were HF log-periodic arrays.  And, there were 3 of them
> stacked on this one tower!  My first thought was that this was not a
military
> setup, since they usually only have one LP per tower; so maybe this was
some
> ham operator who had won the lottery and had put up a "dream station".
Since
> there were some people still working in the field around the tower base, I
> slowed and pulled into the driveway.  As I walked across the field toward
> what appeared to be the construction tent, out walked Jay Terleski, WX0B!
It
> seems that Array Solutions and Custom Metalworks (Paul Nyland, K7PN) have
> teamed-up to install this system for the Army Special Forces.  They have
> spent the last 3 weeks working on the installation.
>
> Luckily, I had my digital camera along, so I have placed two pictures at
the
> following web site www.geocities.com/k4tmc/wx0b-22.jpg and
> www.geocities.com/k4tmc/wx0b-31.jpg .  Here is a quick description:  170
ft.
> Rohn 65 tower with 3 custom Tennadyne log periodics.  They have also
> installed three 900 ft. terminated longwires aimed at various foreign
> locations.  Jay indicated that he is planning an article for QST on this
> installation, and he will have pictures at the Array Solutions web site
later.
>
> Also, Jay may be on the air with this system over the weekend.  He has
> obtained permission to use the call K4A.  So, look for him with a huge
signal
> anywhere on 40 to 10 meters.
>
> 73,
> Henry Pollock - K4TMC
> Raleigh, NC
>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>



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From kc5ajx@hotmail.com  Mon Jul 30 06:43:37 2001
From: kc5ajx@hotmail.com (Rick Bullon)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 05:43:37 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Caution
Message-ID: <F45ffNPL83mxMAKytto000088b7@hotmail.com>


I tried to sent this eairlier today but I think the sever ignored it because 
of the V word so I will try it again

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenneth has tried to send me a file 3 times and everytime it contained the 
W32/BadTrans@MM v_i_r_u_s. I am sure that Kenneth is not doing this on 
purpose but has the v_i_r_u_s on his computer. Since it is from an address 
of a major antenna manufactuer I thought it would be a good idea to alert 
the list to be careful until he getts his computer clean. I would not try 
and open any attacments from this address for now
73
Rick
KC5AJX

>From: "Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com>
>To: <kc5ajx@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Re: Re: [TowerTalk] modeling software
>Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 19:38:07 +0000
>
>'Rick Bullon' wrote:
>====
>- Kenneth you are still sending a v_i_r_u_s in your attachments. It
>- W32/BadTrans@MM v_i_r_u_s. Mcafee says there is no fix for it yet.
>- 73
>- Rick
>-
>-
>- >From: "Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com>
>- >To: <kc5ajx@hotmail.com>
>- >Subject: Re: Re: [TowerTalk] modeling software
>- >Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 19:23:07 +0000
>- >
>- >'Rick Bullon' wrote:
>- >====
>- >-
>- >- Kenneth, Check your computer you tried to send me a v_i_r_u_s in this
>- >- attachment. Hotmail scanns all attachments
>
>
> > Take a look to the attachment.
>
>
><< searchURL.scr >>


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



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From coneal@ma.ultranet.com  Mon Jul 30 06:43:52 2001
From: coneal@ma.ultranet.com (Chuck O'Neal)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 01:43:52 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Awesome HF Array Spotted
Message-ID: <01C11899.16C72F60@h0000949882e8.ne.mediaone.net>


Hi Jay!
I like that system!  I have constructed and have had up since 1992
a pair of stacked logs that cover 13.5 to 30 MHz, at 55 and 110 ft.
Each log is 18 E on a 62' boom, top rotated with a large PP and
bottom rotated with a pair of TIC ring rotators separated by 8 ft to
get vertical stability. Electrical phasing is frequency independent
and I do the top-bot-in-out phasing with a pair of baluns, two 
matching transformers, and a three relays.  I'd like to compare notes
sometime. The antenna is a winner, beating my stacked yagi 
systems by a bit. Let me know when you get that on the air!  I'd
like to hear it! ( The yagis suffer from nearby interaction with other antennas
that the logs aren't as sensitive to, modeling shows this as well)

It looks as if the bottom two logs are identical.  What is their freq range
and what is the range of the top log?  It looks like the top has the same
high freq limit but goes X/2 lower than the bottom two. (scaling the pics)
73,
Chuck..K1KW

-----Original Message-----
From:	Jay Terleski [SMTP:jayt@arraysolutions.com]
Sent:	Sunday, July 29, 2001 9:55 PM
To:	K4tmc@aol.com; towertalk@contesting.com
Subject:	Re: [TowerTalk] Awesome HF Array Spotted


Hello TTers and Henry,

The Antenna system has been going up for 3 weeks now, and we are finally
finished.  I hope to have time to get on the ham bands with it with the call
of K4A. But time is not on our side since there are 2 other towers to attend
too.

The system is 3 logs top one at 122 feet. Mid at 80, and lower at 40.
Phased in any combination of course, and  we can take the top one out 180
degrees of phase for higher angles.

We also installed NVIS antennas which are dipoles fed with a 600 ohm
ladderline, and we put up 4 900 ft longwires on tall poles, which are
playing very well for the missions these guys have in Africa.

The system was put up by Paul, K7PN Custom Metal Works, and myself as Array
Solutions.  Array is the prime contractor.

We are looking forward to getting an article in QST.  The Special Forces
seem very willing to let us discuss most of the system details. They are
most impressed.  The Ft Bragg area is interesting, we get a daily air show
from Pope AFB.  A10s, C17s, C5s, and other monster aircraft fly over our
heads all the time.  alot of helicopters too.  We lit the tower with a twin
obstruction light to keep em at a safe distance. 8o}

Jay


----- Original Message -----
From: <K4tmc@aol.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 9:11 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Awesome HF Array Spotted


>
> On the way back from a week-long business trip, I made a side visit to a
> surplus outlet in the Ft. Bragg, NC area this afternoon and spotted a new
> tower near the base.  What at first I took to be another cookie-cutter
cell
> tower turned out to be something else.  As I got closer there seemed to be
> some large horizontal attachments to this one.  As I drove closer it was
> evident that these were HF log-periodic arrays.  And, there were 3 of them
> stacked on this one tower!  My first thought was that this was not a
military
> setup, since they usually only have one LP per tower; so maybe this was
some
> ham operator who had won the lottery and had put up a "dream station".
Since
> there were some people still working in the field around the tower base, I
> slowed and pulled into the driveway.  As I walked across the field toward
> what appeared to be the construction tent, out walked Jay Terleski, WX0B!
It
> seems that Array Solutions and Custom Metalworks (Paul Nyland, K7PN) have
> teamed-up to install this system for the Army Special Forces.  They have
> spent the last 3 weeks working on the installation.
>
> Luckily, I had my digital camera along, so I have placed two pictures at
the
> following web site www.geocities.com/k4tmc/wx0b-22.jpg and
> www.geocities.com/k4tmc/wx0b-31.jpg .  Here is a quick description:  170
ft.
> Rohn 65 tower with 3 custom Tennadyne log periodics.  They have also
> installed three 900 ft. terminated longwires aimed at various foreign
> locations.  Jay indicated that he is planning an article for QST on this
> installation, and he will have pictures at the Array Solutions web site
later.
>
> Also, Jay may be on the air with this system over the weekend.  He has
> obtained permission to use the call K4A.  So, look for him with a huge
signal
> anywhere on 40 to 10 meters.
>
> 73,
> Henry Pollock - K4TMC
> Raleigh, NC
>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>



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From =?iso-8859-1?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=" <tonno.vahk@mail.ee  Mon Jul 30 07:48:16 2001
From: =?iso-8859-1?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=" <tonno.vahk@mail.ee (=?iso-8859-1?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 09:48:16 +0300
Subject: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance
References: <1.5.4.32.20010728153246.006c0ff8@pop.vnet.net>
Message-ID: <008c01c118c3$9f3933a0$0adb2fd4@comtrade.ee>


As I have found the presence of the undriven antenna is effecting the gain
and F/B a lot.

Actually in a stack of two the lower undriven antenna decreases the gain of
the upper one by about 1db if turned into the same direction.
That is almost half of the stacking gain!! That's why I think that the
upper-lower-stack tests might sometimes lead you to wrong conclusions - to
think that your stack is performing better than it actually is.  The effect
of the lower antenna vanishes when you turn the upper about 40 degrees (for
6 el owa yagis).

Some other tips/ideas I have come to when testing and modelling:

Don't place yagis in a stack lower than 1 wl!
    If it is a three or four stack you really don't get more gain from the
low antenna and if you want high angles you can switch the other antennas.

Don't stack different beams, you lose gain!
    Try to avoid stacking different beams as you usually get the gain of a
stack of the lower gain beams if even that much.

Put the beam with higher gain lower in the stack!
    I have found that gives you more gain. If you still want to stack
different beams, say 1wl boom and 0.75 wl boom then put the longer boom
lower on the
    tower as models suggest that the lower gain beam desperately wants to be
higher to work better. I think most of the people would be tempted to put
their "killer"
    beam to the top:)

73s
Tonno
ES5TV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Tippett" <btippett@alum.mit.edu>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>; "alsopb" <alsopb@gloryroad.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Optimum Stacking Distance


>
> K3KO:
> >I understand you did extensive analyses considering the terrain around
> >you.  To what extent did this impact the stack spacing and/or final
> >antenna heights?
>
>      Yes and no...I did use N6BV's Terrain Analysis but primarily to help
me
> learn how to use the stacks...i.e. best takeoff angles vs azimuth vs time
of
> day.  For each contest, I usually make a chart by UTC hour showing which
> directions and combinations of the 3-stack should be best.  Of course
> nothing beats checking actual signal levels (and TOA's) during the contest
> but it also helps to have a general idea of what you should be doing
> (especially for when your brain gets tired!)
>
>      YO7 assumes flat terrain but can output a file in AO format which can
> then be used to model local terrain effects.  I do not have AO and my
> surrounding terrain is not extreme so I felt that was an unnecessary
> exercise.  I did verify that my measured F/B for the stack was close
> (actually a bit better) to what YO7 predicted so I have confidence that
> YO7's assumptions are working OK for my case.  W4AN says his mountaintop
> terrain works better with closer stack spacings than I've found to be
> optimum so he obviously believes complete AO modeling is necessary for his
> location.
>
>      One related and interesting thing happened when I measured my actual
> F/B.  The F/B for a single antenna was MUCH better than YO7 predicted so I
> mentioned this to K6STI.  Brian then modeled the stack in AO and found
that
> the presence of the undriven antenna significantly (5-6 dB I recall)
> improved the F/B of a single driven antenna...and this was with them
spaced
> over 1 wavelength apart!
>
>      Anyway, it's been a fun learning experience and I continue to be
> surprised by some of the things I see (like long path JA's often being at
> high angles!)
>
>                                                    73,  Bill  W4ZV
>
>
>
> -----
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> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
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From =?iso-8859-1?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=" <tonno.vahk@mail.ee  Mon Jul 30 08:00:26 2001
From: =?iso-8859-1?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=" <tonno.vahk@mail.ee (=?iso-8859-1?B?VPVubm8gVuRoaw==?=)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:00:26 +0300
Subject: [TowerTalk] The best stacking distance for long-boom yagis  - 0.5 wavelength!!
References: <1.5.4.32.20010729124810.00676730@pop.vnet.net>
Message-ID: <009701c118c5$4fa93e00$0adb2fd4@comtrade.ee>


Actually when I meant to maximize the forward gain then that implied only
giving up maybe 5db front to back. Say, from 25 to 20. And usually with
those OWA stacks I modelled the F/B got maybe worse only on low angles, thus
I wouldn't mind some DX coming in to the back of my beam.

Definitely they are both important but I wouldn't want to give up 0.5 db
gain for better F/B. I think 1 db of gain would mean about 1-2% difference
in the CQWW score on average.

Moving those long boom antennas closer actually maximizes vertical angle
coverage. If you read my long post a few days ago then I describe in my
example that when stacking 2 beams only 0.5 wl you get another usable lobe
while when the spacing is larger you are heating up the air at 90 degrees.

And should you have a stack of four, as Jiri has on 10m (13;19;25;31), you
are able to switch them so that you get every possible angle out exept very
low of course. That exactly what I would use on 10m if I couldn't go higher.

73s
Tonno
ES5TV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Tippett" <btippett@alum.mit.edu>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>; <tonno.vahk@mail.ee>; <jirka@jimaz.cz>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] The best stacking distance for long-boom yagis -
0.5 wavelength!!


>
> Hello Tonno, Jiri et al!
>
>         I was curious about your statements:
>
> Tonno ES5TV wrote:
>
> >Maybe I should have emphasized in my post that I wanted to find the best
> >stacking distance for contesting! Not to maximize F/B definitely.
>
>         What are you trying to maximize for contesting?  Several years ago
> I was of the opinion that poor F/B was actually desirable for contests,
> especially when I was using only one antenna.  Having used my stack for a
> couple of years, I now believe F/B is more important.  My reasoning is
that
> I believe a good pattern (F/B) is extremely important for hearing the very
> weak stations better in heavy QRM.  If I want to hear in another
direction,
> for example EU and SA, I am more likely to spray my transmit signal to
> cover both areas on transmit, but then listen only in the desired
direction
> for very weak signals by switching on receive.  The same may apply to
> takeoff angles...I want to maximize my vertical angles on transmit, but
> then I want to select the best combination to hear very weak signals.  I
> think you are saying maximize for angle coverage but why not better F/B
> also?
>
> Jiri OK1RI wrote:
>
> >2.ON HF I am sure that this is only one - less important point, what you
> >really want to do is to cover as many vertical angles as possible. To
> >achieve this you need to have the antennas closer.
>
>         I also don't understand how moving antennas closer maximizes
> vertical angle coverage...I think this would make the vertical angle
smaller
> (centered for the height of the stack midpoint).  I prefer a stack with
fairly
> wide vertical separation.  If signals are extremely low angle, the full
> 3-stack or top 2-stack combination will be best.  If signals are fairly
> high angle, the lower 2-stack will be best.  If signals are very high
> angle, the lower antenna alone will be best.  Maybe you are talking about
> always using your stacks as full combinations and not switching them as I
> do using the StackMatch (any combination of the 3 antennas).  Is that what
> you mean?
>
>         In my opinion the most important parameters to maximize are as
> follows (approximately in order but #1 and #2 are very close):
>
> 1.  Azimuth angle coverage (not just beamwidth of a single Yagi but also
the
> ability to spray in multiple directions simultaneously)...this can of
course
> be accomplished by being able to independently rotate antennas in a single
> stack or better yet have another separate set of antennnas that can easily
> switched/combined for other directions.
>
> 2.  Vertical angle coverage (transmit with a broad vertical angle but
switch
> on receive to optimize S/N for weak signals).
>
> 3.  F/B or pattern of the array is very important when trying to optimize
> S/N when receiving weak signals.
>
> 4.  Forward gain is least important!  When 10M is wide open, a dB or two
> is insignificant (S9 + 40 dB versus S9 + 41 dB).  This is also why guys
> who run illegal power are really wasting their efforts in the wrong area
> IMHO!
>
>         I would be curious to know your thoughts on the above.
>
>                                                 73,  Bill  W4ZV
>
>
>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
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From longterm@chatusa.com  Mon Jul 30 14:17:53 2001
From: longterm@chatusa.com (DanB)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:17:53 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] 450 Ohm ladder line loss
Message-ID: <3B655E81.A60BDB0A@chatusa.com>


Anybody know what  the loss of 450 Ohm ladder line at 3.8 Mhz is , the
cheap stuff  with square holes like you get at Ham Radio outlet a 500 ft
run. I  have measure the DC resistance of 31 ohms for 500 ft shorting
out one end and measuring the loop. I  have see test results at 40 Mhz
when wet there a additional 6 db for 100 ft. I replacing mine now with
#12 copper wire and wonder how much I will gain.

73 Dan



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From nwtncc@iswt.com  Mon Jul 30 15:11:51 2001
From: nwtncc@iswt.com (James Hall)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 09:11:51 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Second floor shack ideas - please
In-Reply-To: <3B6565CF.BFD1D9DC@qsl.net>
Message-ID: <B78AD557.4F6D%nwtncc@iswt.com>


Hi Ron:

Thanks for your insight !  Reason for short tower for satelitte antennas: 1)
for apogee shots, the booms will miss the ground 2) because I have assorted
rug-rats in the neighborhood, 3) because I have the spare tower  ;)

As to your 2nd point, I could do both. The power box and its ground are
behind the garage and reachable.

Thanks,

Jamie
WB4YDL

> From: Ron KA4INM Youvan <ka4inm@qsl.net>
> Organization: HAM Radio
> Reply-To: ka4inm@qsl.net
> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:49:03 +0000
> To: "James C. Hall, M.D." <nwtncc@iswt.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Second floor shack ideas - please
> 
> Hi  "James C. Hall, M.D.":
> 
>> What say you, TT'ers.  What is the best solution to a second floor shack ?
> 
> 
>> snip  Actually, plans are for two towers to include a smaller R25 tower for
>> satellite antennas.
> snip
> 
> Why would anyone put an antenna for a satellite on a tower,
> more than 5' tall?
> 
>> snip                 . . .  I may be able to dig up the ground rod under
>> me so as to attach a radial which would then connect to the tower ground
>> system . . .
> snip
> 
> Better you should connect it to the power ground, (thousands of ground
> rods) a ground wire 100 feet long would be worthless.
> 
> 73 (= Best Regards) de: Ron ka4inm@qsl.net  SENT Time and Date are UTC
> I upgraded to LINUX, the more I use it, the more I love it.
> It doesn't do everything for you, you must program it.
> Visit my HAM Web SITE at: http://www.qsl.net/ka4inm
> 



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From nwtncc@iswt.com  Mon Jul 30 15:33:07 2001
From: nwtncc@iswt.com (James Hall)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 09:33:07 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Second floor shack ideas - please
In-Reply-To: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPCEIDCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>
Message-ID: <B78ADA53.4F6F%nwtncc@iswt.com>


Hi Bill:

Thanks so much for your info.  YES, of course I have been to your site and
am modeling much of my MUCH smaller station after yours ;)  The first floor
here has 10 foot ceilings so I am guessing about 14 feet to ground from the
shack - then out to the tower. I want to try to minimize cable runs to the
shack with the use of antenna switches. I definitely have your site
bookmarked, and if I ever find myself in your neighborhood, I'll look you up
!

I'll have more to say on my situation - but for now, well, I sorta have this
day job ...  ;0  See www.nwtcc.com .

Later, 

Jamie
WB4YDL

> From: "Bill Hider" <n3rr@erols.com>
> Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 20:56:51 -0400
> To: "James C. Hall, M.D." <nwtncc@iswt.com>
> Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Second floor shack ideas - please
> 
> James,
> 
> If you haven't been to my Website, I'd suggest you look through it and look
> especially the design pages on lightning protection and cabling.
> www.erols.com/n3rr
> 
> Now that you have been to my website, you will see that my SPG is 8 foot up
> on my house, feeding the cables into the ceiling of my hamshack.  If your
> shack is higher that mine (Perhaps the floor of your shack is 15 above
> ground?  What's the actual?), you might install an outdoor box at
> floor-level of your shack and run two 3" conduits to the ground from there
> and on to the towers. Look at the photos I have on the lightning protection
> page.
> 
> You don't say what the cable-distance is from the window of your shack to
> each tower. Nor do you say the cable-distance from the bottom of each tower
> to each of the antennas. All this will determine what kind of cable you use.
> (again, look at my website: cabling link.)
> 
> Based on what types of cables you'll use plus the control cables, spare
> cables, etc, will determine the conduit size.
> Then, you'll need to determine where your A/C power, telephone, CATV, DSS,
> etc, enter the house.  You should plan to connect the grounds from all these
> devices to the SPG.  Then, you will be able to design a grounding system
> *before* you install anything.  BE SURE YOU HAVE NO GROUND LOOPS IN YOUR
> GROUND DESIGN.
> 
> Again, use my website for reference.  Look at the ground grid design in my
> system: http://users.erols.com/n3rr/photos/grounding_pictorial.jpg
> 
> Then look carefully at the examples in the Polyphone manual.  You should be
> able to extrapolate your design from these references.
> 
> Depending on the height from the ground to the shack, you may want to locate
> your SPG at/near ground level.  That will keep the difference of potential
> of the SPG ground and the tower/AC/CATV/DSS ground less (which is
> desirable).
> 
> I think a proper design will be able to be determined once a
> fully-dimensioned pictorial of your situation is available.
> Once you have that, thoroughly review the Polyphone manual and example
> installations like mine, then determine what you need.
> 
> Once you have your next round of questions, I'll be glad to answer them.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Bill, N3RR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of James C. Hall, M.D.
> Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 3:01 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Second floor shack ideas - please
> 
> 
> 
> Hello:
> 
> I've been monitoring TT since this past Sept. and really enjoy the
> discussions.  I am awaiting delivery of my first tower in 25 years - a UST
> HDX570 - and have LOTS of questions.  I went to Dayton for the first time
> this year and garnered lots of info including a Polyphaser manual.  Recently
> there was a discussion about cable feed through and lightning protection.
> I've gone through all the TT archives and some very nice web sites, which
> have been all helpful, but nothing really addresses the problems of
> grounding and lightning protection when your shack is on the 2nd floor.
> I've tried some direct emailing and some have been most helpful - thanks
> particularly to Dick Flanagan.
> 
> Here's my setup : when we built our home, which sits on 30 acres of rolling
> hills, the XYL agreed to develop over the garage where I could have a
> dedicated ham shack. Now, some mistakes were made (no, really!) and the
> contractor's idea was to have a safety ground consisting of large gauge
> copper wire which passes down behind the brick veneer to a ground rod.  The
> rigs are attached to copper straps behind the desk and then attach to the
> ground rod which is virtually underneath me. Additionally, a utility box was
> placed in the drywall where two 1 inch electrical conduits went down behind
> the brick, under the drive, and out to the proposed tower site (about 100 ft
> away). Actually, plans are for two towers to include a smaller R25 tower for
> satellite antennas.  The driveway has not been poured yet and consists of
> simply 33C rock for now - so I can dig into it now if I choose. Now
> obviously there are limited amounts of cable that can be introduced into
> these small conduits. I was thinking about running something like LMR400 and
> rotor control cabling down each conduit where I can then attach remote
> antenna switches. Then after reading the interesting posts on lightnig
> protection I started to worry. I may be able to dig up the ground rod under
> me so as to attach a radial which would then connect to the tower ground
> system - but where should the SPG be ? Conventional wisdom says outside the
> shack. I have a window which faces the proposed tower.  I seem to remember a
> window unit that could act as a SPG and then direct ground from there. I
> would have to forget using the present conduits and go from the window box
> with new larger PVC conduit. I also need to consider feeding wire antennas
> for 80 and 160 meters. Oh, the antennas on the tower - Force 12 Mag 620/340
> and 4BA separated by about 9 feet on a 20 foot Chrom-molly mast. The wind
> figure for this county (which seems to come up alot on this reflector) is 70
> MPH.
> 
> What say you, TT'ers.  What is the best solution to a second floor shack ?
> Comments and criticism on any and all of this would be appreciated.
> 
> James C. Hall, MD
> WB4YDL
> 
> 
> 
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> 
> 



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From n8ug@juno.com  Mon Jul 30 15:58:07 2001
From: n8ug@juno.com (n8ug@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 09:58:07 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Window-type ladder line
Message-ID: <20010730.100000.-152197.1.n8ug@juno.com>


Dan, The "cheap stuff" would be better labeled "inexpensive," since it is
an excellent and economical transmission line when used properly and kept
clean so that water "beads" up on it. Dry, the 4 models of it range in
loss from .09 to .13 dB loss per hundred feet at 4.0 MHz and in a cloud
burst would indeed be more lossy, but clean, it is a minor inconvenience,
non-existant most of the time. 
You could about equal that loss by going to 7/8" hardline, and improve it
with 12 AWG open wire ladderline by perhaps .04 dB or so per 100 ft,
depending on the condition and type of the wire used. 
The max. DC resistance of the cheapest Window type  out there (18 g solid
30% CCS), measured by your protocol (1000ft), would be about 22 ohms
under perfect conditions, so the 31 ohm figure is reasonable; the largest
size is 14 gauge stranded CCS, and would be about 19.5 ohms, both figures
interesting and some 4 to 8 times greater than bare copper, and useful
for  continuity checks, but not for RF at HF.
The 6 dB loss, wet, at 4.0 MHz (assuming the 40 was a typo), is
meaningless without data detail and conditions, and makes one wonder,
...in "addition" to what? 
Good luck with your project,

Press Jones, N8UG - The Wireman, Inc., 261 Pittman Rd, Landrum, SC 29356
<Press@thewireman.com> or <orders@thewireman.com>
800-727-WIRE(9473)(sales)
Tech help 864-895-4195, fax 864-895-5811.Full catalog, images,
descriptions, coax specs, ordering, at http://www.thewireman.com and
super deals, specials, close-outs etc., at THE WIRELINE. Check the
CALENDAR to find us at a hamfest!


<Anybody know what  the loss of 450 Ohm ladder line at 3.8 Mhz is , the
cheap stuff  with square holes like you get at Ham Radio outlet a 500 ft
run. I  have measure the DC resistance of 31 ohms for 500 ft shorting
out one end and measuring the loop. I  have see test results at 40 Mhz
when wet there a additional 6 db for 100 ft. I replacing mine now with
#12 copper wire and wonder how much I will gain>


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From JClymerjr@aol.com  Mon Jul 30 16:34:18 2001
From: JClymerjr@aol.com (JClymerjr@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 11:34:18 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] KT-34XA - KT-36XA Upgrade
Message-ID: <f3.d69a97d.2896d881@aol.com>


Recently, Bruce Makas, K1MY inquired about the KT-34XA to KT-36XA upgrade kits from M2.

Yes, I have completed the upgrade conversion. In a nutshell &#8211; it&#8217;s a LOT of work. I would be embarrassed to reveal how long the process took to complete. (I went for the full bore, including all new element-to-boom clamps, and pinning all element joints, as in the KT-36XA.)

Mechanically, this &#8220;new&#8221; antenna is very impressive. It is a major improvement over the KLM design. I can&#8217;t comment about on-the-air performance, because the ant is currently nested at 20 feet. The SWR sweep looks pretty clean an all three bands.

The main reason for this post is to mention an omission (or at least, a confusing situation) in the conversion instructions. The confusion involves how you install the half-element assemblies. I talked with Mike at M2 and got the needed clarification.

This is too long and specific to post in this forum. If you are interested in this clarification, shoot me a private email.    

Thanks &#8211; Jim

WS6X@ARRL.NET


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From JClymerjr@aol.com  Mon Jul 30 16:36:04 2001
From: JClymerjr@aol.com (JClymerjr@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 11:36:04 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cold Galvanizing Spray
Message-ID: <ab.d046386.2896d8e5@aol.com>


I am intrigued by the glowing TT comments regarding cold galvanizing spray. Since my experience is so much to the contrary, I must be &#8220;Ralphing up&#8221; the process somehow. I&#8217;m hoping someone here can correct the error of my ways.

I have tried 3 different brands. I have enthusiastically read all the promo stuff: &#8220;Rich with self-sacrificing zinc, creating a durable bond, etc., etc.&#8221;

I have applied the spray paint directly over clean, existing galvanized steel. I have applied it to new, buffed (with steel wool, and/or emery cloth) steel, and to chemically etched, new steel. I have allowed it to &#8220;cure&#8221; for 12 weeks. I have yet to achieve what I would consider a &#8220;bond.&#8221; To wit: the paint can be scraped off down to original surface with the slightest effort. In fact I can even rub it off with a callus on my thumb!

What am I missing?

Thanks,

Jim - WS6X


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From n4zr@contesting.com  Mon Jul 30 16:34:24 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 11:34:24 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed tower for 160
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010730113424.0098faa0@pop.abs.adelphia.net>


This is my ignorant question for today -- with only an antenna analyzer,
how can I determine the resonant frequency of my tower?  I plan to attach a
first-attempt at shunt feed at about the 30-foot level, with 30-inch
spacing from the tower.  Can I tell from the analyzer reading at the bottom
of that shunt wire where the tower is resonant?  Do I need to put the
series capacitance in before attempting the measurement?  Or is it all
fruitless?

Clearly my education was neglected or I'd know the answer, so thanks for
your help and patience.

73, Pete N4ZR







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From ValErwin@aol.com  Mon Jul 30 17:21:04 2001
From: ValErwin@aol.com (ValErwin@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:21:04 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Home Depot Cold Galvanizing Spray
Message-ID: <103.6ba05a7.2896e370@aol.com>


Jim:

I share your frustration with the cold galv-products!  I have tried 
everything you have including wiping down the clean metal with vinegar and 
using scotchbrite, etc. -- same-o, same-o --

I have been using a product called "Zinc-it" that I get from the electrical 
section @ Home Depot. I found it to be quite durable AS LONG AS THERE IS NO 
ABRASION IN THE AREA. But, like you, I find that I can rub it off quite 
easily with a flick of a finger nail within 24 hours -- On the other hand, it 
is not as easy to remove once it has setup for a few days in the hot TX sun 
but is still far from what I would term as being ideal. I have found that 
thinner coats with at least twelve hours between coats seems to work better. 
Regardless, there has to be something better out there??

GL

Val
W5PUT


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From jhfitzpa@facstaff.wisc.edu  Mon Jul 30 22:35:12 2001
From: jhfitzpa@facstaff.wisc.edu (James H. Fitzpatrick, Jr.)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:35:12 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hawks
Message-ID: <200107301631.LAA321698@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>


There is a bald eagle's nest on top of a large hemlock tree on the other
side of the lake, about 400 meters from my northern WI station. They've been
there as long as we have, 17 years, and there are eaglets every 3 years or
so. They're around all the time, fishing in the lake except when it freezes
over when they fish in the nearby river. They sit on trees 100 ft from our
cabin and watch things. People don't seem to bother them at all, though they
do get nervous when my dogs get too close to them. Never seen them on either
tower, just on the trees near the tower. It's real cool to have an eagle go
by you about 20 ft away when you're working on the top of the tower - it's
happened at least a couple of times. The point about the camera is well
taken - I've never had one up there when they've gotten close.

Jim

WI9WI



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From n3rr@erols.com  Mon Jul 30 17:38:22 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:38:22 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cold Galvanizing Spray
In-Reply-To: <ab.d046386.2896d8e5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPOEIJCDAA.n3rr@erols.com>


Jim,

First of all, adding cold galv to galvanized steel is not necessary.  No
further protection should be added to galvanized steel.

Secondly, what products are you using?

When repairing old galvanizing, I use a product called: Brite Zinc.  (refer
to the "vendors" link on my Website.)

When adding a zinc coating to *raw* steel, like a mast, or a new diagonal or
horizontal steel member on a tower, I first sand the steel, remove all
oil/grease, then spray two coats of Aviation Zinc Chromate Primer, A7 6889 A
Green, (Tempo Products Company, Solon, OH), then two coats of Brite Zinc.
This combination has worked very well for me.

BTW, Tempo does not have their Aviation products on their Website and I have
sent them a query about the Zinc Chromate spray.  I'll post their response.

Bill, N3RR
www.erols.com/n3rr


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of JClymerjr@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:36 AM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cold Galvanizing Spray



I am intrigued by the glowing TT comments regarding cold galvanizing spray.
Since my experience is so much to the contrary, I must be &#8220;Ralphing
up&#8221; the process somehow. I&#8217;m hoping someone here can correct the
error of my ways.

I have tried 3 different brands. I have enthusiastically read all the promo
stuff: &#8220;Rich with self-sacrificing zinc, creating a durable bond,
etc., etc.&#8221;

I have applied the spray paint directly over clean, existing galvanized
steel. I have applied it to new, buffed (with steel wool, and/or emery
cloth) steel, and to chemically etched, new steel. I have allowed it to
&#8220;cure&#8221; for 12 weeks. I have yet to achieve what I would consider
a &#8220;bond.&#8221; To wit: the paint can be scraped off down to original
surface with the slightest effort. In fact I can even rub it off with a
callus on my thumb!

What am I missing?

Thanks,

Jim - WS6X


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From steve@oakcom.com  Mon Jul 30 17:46:27 2001
From: steve@oakcom.com (Steve Maki)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:46:27 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cold Galvanizing Spray
In-Reply-To: <ab.d046386.2896d8e5@aol.com>
References: <ab.d046386.2896d8e5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <2e3bmt8uvht6an3g61dh34u3pt6asc75ed@4ax.com>


WS6X wrote:

>I am intrigued by the glowing TT comments regarding cold galvanizing spray. Since my experience is so much to the contrary, I must be &#8220;Ralphing up&#8221; the process somehow. I&#8217;m hoping someone here can correct the error of my ways.
>
>I have tried 3 different brands. I have enthusiastically read all the promo stuff: &#8220;Rich with self-sacrificing zinc, creating a durable bond, etc., etc.&#8221;
>
>I have applied the spray paint directly over clean, existing galvanized steel. I have applied it to new, buffed (with steel wool, and/or emery cloth) steel, and to chemically etched, new steel. I have allowed it to &#8220;cure&#8221; for 12 weeks. I have yet to achieve what I would consider a &#8220;bond.&#8221; To wit: the paint can be scraped off down to original surface with the slightest effort. In fact I can even rub it off with a callus on my thumb!
>
>What am I missing?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jim - WS6X

You only tried three brands? :-) I tried a dozen or so before
finding a good one.

Try "Brite Zinc".

It's leaves the hardest, best looking finish I've seen.

--
Steve K8LX


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From realex@flash.net  Mon Jul 30 17:55:26 2001
From: realex@flash.net (Bob Alexander)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 11:55:26 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed tower for 160
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010730113424.0098faa0@pop.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <MABBIJFDFCIFMKGEEFNHOEPPCCAA.realex@flash.net>


Pete,
Find a copy of May, 1975 Ham Radio magazine and check out the article titled
"How to Design Shunt-feed Systems for Grounded Vertical Radiators" by John
True,
W4OQ.  I do not think there has ever been a better "how to" article written
about
tower matching.
73, Good Luck
Bob, W5AH

-----Original Message-----

This is my ignorant question for today -- with only an antenna analyzer,
how can I determine the resonant frequency of my tower?  I plan to attach a
first-attempt at shunt feed at about the 30-foot level, with 30-inch
spacing from the tower.  Can I tell from the analyzer reading at the bottom
of that shunt wire where the tower is resonant?  Do I need to put the
series capacitance in before attempting the measurement?  Or is it all
fruitless?

Clearly my education was neglected or I'd know the answer, so thanks for
your help and patience.

73, Pete N4ZR




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From wa9als@starband.net  Mon Jul 30 18:26:50 2001
From: wa9als@starband.net (WA9ALS - John)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:26:50 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed tower for 160
References: <MABBIJFDFCIFMKGEEFNHOEPPCCAA.realex@flash.net>
Message-ID: <004901c1191c$d32ffa00$3077fea9@jwf>


I'm interested in this too, so will jump in now.  My main question now is:

I have a C31XR at 72 ft - The elements are -not- grounded.  Thus I assume
much less (or none?) capacitance hat effect.  I therefore assume I can still
work out a shunt feed for -some- frequency(s), but they will likely be
higher freq than if I had grounded elements and therefore more capacitance
at the top?

What do you think would be reasonable to shoot for with a 70 ft tower with
the ungrounded elements of the C31?  40M?  Maybe 80M?  Doubt 160M??  Pete,
I'd be interested in whatever appraoch you end up taking with your project
too!  Thanks

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Alexander <realex@flash.net>
To: Pete Smith <n4zr@contesting.com>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:55 AM
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed tower for
160


>
>
> Pete,
> Find a copy of May, 1975 Ham Radio magazine and check out the article
titled
> "How to Design Shunt-feed Systems for Grounded Vertical Radiators" by John
> True,
> W4OQ.  I do not think there has ever been a better "how to" article
written
> about
> tower matching.
> 73, Good Luck
> Bob, W5AH
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> This is my ignorant question for today -- with only an antenna analyzer,
> how can I determine the resonant frequency of my tower?  I plan to attach
a
> first-attempt at shunt feed at about the 30-foot level, with 30-inch
> spacing from the tower.  Can I tell from the analyzer reading at the
bottom
> of that shunt wire where the tower is resonant?  Do I need to put the
> series capacitance in before attempting the measurement?  Or is it all
> fruitless?
>
> Clearly my education was neglected or I'd know the answer, so thanks for
> your help and patience.
>
> 73, Pete N4ZR
>
>
>
>
> -----
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>



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From W8JI@contesting.com  Mon Jul 30 19:13:05 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 14:13:05 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed tower for 160
In-Reply-To: <004901c1191c$d32ffa00$3077fea9@jwf>
Message-ID: <200107301817.f6UIHOZ19070@paris.akorn.net>


Pete,

You can not *easily* find the resonant frequency of your grounded 
tower. You could measure it by using making a clamp-on 
transformer to fit around the tower, but the thing would need a large 
core!

You might get away with connecting a short wire several feet above 
ground through the analyzer or with a few turn link to a grid dip 
meter, the inductance of that wire will move the reading slightly but 
not far.  

But who cares?  The only problem would be if the tower was 
electrically way too long..more than 3/8th wl or so.

> I have a C31XR at 72 ft - The elements are -not- grounded.  Thus I assume
> much less (or none?) capacitance hat effect.  I therefore assume I can
> still work out a shunt feed for -some- frequency(s), but they will likely
> be higher freq than if I had grounded elements and therefore more
> capacitance at the top?

Be careful of that! The voltage between the elements and the boom 
can be extremely high. I modelled that for someone on the topband 
reflector, and it could be in the kilovolt range.

Many people burn up insulators on antennas or choke baluns by 
shunt feeding towers.

I'd be absolutely sure to ground all the elements through a small 
choke to the boom. 

You want the reactance to be less than a few thousand ohms on 
160, and more than a few dozen ohms on the bands the yagi is 
built for. You can get the formulas from the Handbook, I'd use at 
least number 14 wire in a nice single layer. The exact values are 
not critical...probably values as low as a couple dozen ohms (up to 
many hundreds of ohms) reactance will work.


73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 


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From k1ttt@berkshire.net  Mon Jul 30 19:07:06 2001
From: k1ttt@berkshire.net (David Robbins)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 19:07:06 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] V_I_R_U_S A_L_E_R_T
Message-ID: <3B65A24A.3DE74FAF@berkshire.net>


I hate to blast this out to these lists, but today i have received several
copies of the w32.sircam.worm from addresses i recognize from various ham mail
lists.  this one spreads very quickly.  you can identify messages containing it
at a glance because the subject of the message matches the file name of an
attachment... the attachments normally have strange combination file names
like   xxxxxxx.doc.pif, or yyyyyy.txt.bat, or zzzzzzzzzzzz.doc.com, some
browsers may not show you the .bat, .com, or .pif extensions so it may look like
a harmless text file... in the above cases the subject of the message would be
xxxxxxxx or yyyyyyy or zzzzzzzzzzz to match the file name.  in all cases the
files are actual files off your hard drive with the worm added to it, so you
could compromise data on your machine also.  in several cases the files i have
received have been megabytes long which tie up my mail download the the cluster
node for quite a while.

the text is always a very simple message about 'here is a file for your
comment', sometimes the text appears as an attachment also.

see the description at:
http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.sircam.worm@mm.html

yes, i am an IT professional, even though i don't play one on tv.

-- 
David Robbins K1TTT
e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
web: http://www.k1ttt.net
AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net


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From K7GCO@aol.com  Mon Jul 30 21:22:18 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:22:18 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed tower for 160
Message-ID: <12e.22d3a6d.28971bfa@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/30/01 8:38:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
n4zr@contesting.com writes:

<< 
 This is my ignorant question for today -- with only an antenna analyzer,
 how can I determine the resonant frequency of my tower?  I plan to attach a
 first-attempt at shunt feed at about the 30-foot level, with 30-inch
 spacing from the tower.  Can I tell from the analyzer reading at the bottom
 of that shunt wire where the tower is resonant?  Do I need to put the
 series capacitance in before attempting the measurement?  Or is it all
 fruitless?
 
 Clearly my education was neglected or I'd know the answer, so thanks for
 your help and patience.
 
 73, Pete N4ZR  >>

Pete:  There is a simple way with a reverse connection to the radial to coax. 
 Assume a tower 50' high with a 20M beam.  The beam adds a good top load to 
it--how much?

Connect the coax shield to the tower starting at the bottom and add say a 80M 
radial to the center lead and run it horizontal at first.  Check the resonant 
frequency with a MFJ SWR Analyzer. Keep moving the shield connection up the 
tower with a vice grip until the lowest SWR is obtained on 80M.  The tower 
length above the shield connection and loading affect of the beam will be 
about 1/4 wave electrically and to the "Resonant Eye".  You can droop the 
radial down to about 10' off the ground as you raise the shield connection 
and also alter the lowest SWR.  No series capacitor is needed either other 
than if the lengths aren't right.  I did this for 6 different bands with no 
apparent affect on each band as long as the radials weren't too close to each 
other.  Sometimes grounding the tower has no affect below the shield 
connection.  The primary "Phantom Ground" was at the shield connection 
insofar as the RF and resonance was concerned.  It might be necessary to cool 
other cables coming into the shack but I never had a problem--others may.  
Works like a charm.  

As the shield connection is raised to obtain resonance and the band is 
higher, It starts to look like a Sloper.  When a low SWR point is found it 
means the length of the tower above and below the shield connection looks 
like a 1/4 wave.  Short towers seldom work well for 160-80M top guy wire 
slopers as the length above and the often grounded tower below just aren't 
resonant.  A low shield connection often works great for 80 and even 160M.  
If not on 160M add a wire extension like a guy wire to resonant it on 160M.   
K7GCO


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From n2tk@earthlink.net  Mon Jul 30 21:19:28 2001
From: n2tk@earthlink.net (N2TK)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:19:28 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cold Galvanizing Spray
In-Reply-To: <ab.d046386.2896d8e5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c11936$d878ac40$951ffc9e@tony>


Don't know what you are missing, but I have been using the stuff for 20
years. About every 5 years or so I have sprayed another coating on my tilt
over base plate which was plain steel. The cold galvanizing spray has held
up very well. I sprayed 2 - 4" steel pipes that hold a "C" steel beam that
holds my winch. After 7 years rust is starting to show. Will recoat it this
summer. It is tough as nails. I have not done anything special.
Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of JClymerjr@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:36
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cold Galvanizing Spray


I am intrigued by the glowing TT comments regarding cold galvanizing spray.
Since my experience is so much to the contrary, I must be &#8220;Ralphing
up&#8221; the process somehow. I&#8217;m hoping someone here can correct the
error of my ways.

I have tried 3 different brands. I have enthusiastically read all the promo
stuff: &#8220;Rich with self-sacrificing zinc, creating a durable bond,
etc., etc.&#8221;

I have applied the spray paint directly over clean, existing galvanized
steel. I have applied it to new, buffed (with steel wool, and/or emery
cloth) steel, and to chemically etched, new steel. I have allowed it to
&#8220;cure&#8221; for 12 weeks. I have yet to achieve what I would consider
a &#8220;bond.&#8221; To wit: the paint can be scraped off down to original
surface with the slightest effort. In fact I can even rub it off with a
callus on my thumb!

What am I missing?

Thanks,

Jim - WS6X


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From n2tk@earthlink.net  Mon Jul 30 21:31:06 2001
From: n2tk@earthlink.net (N2TK)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:31:06 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed tower for 160
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010730113424.0098faa0@pop.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <002f01c11936$e0b87d40$951ffc9e@tony>


Hi Pete. One time I dropped a wire from the top of the 80' tower, about 1.5'
away from the tower. I grounded the bottom end of the wire to the base of
the tower. About 3' from the bottom I put in a small loop. With a grid dip
meter, I got a dip at 1.3MHZ. Not sure what that was really telling me.

After this I tried hanging a 80M delta loop about 15' from the tower. Where
I had the grid dip loop, I installed a broadcast type variable cap. I could
change the resonance of the loop from cw to phone by varying the variable
cap. I guess I had some interaction - hi.

By the way, at this location I strung a shunt wire about 2' from the tower.
It ties in to the tower at 70'. The bottom end attaches through a series vac
variable at 15' up from the base. Tunes to a low swr. I have 4 elevated
radials. The antenna almost works. Maybe will get time this summer to put
down some radials on the ground, but the damn deer keep pulling up that
stuff over the rocks. I wonder if it matters if I leave the shunt feed 15'
up when I take down the elevated radials and go with ground radials?

Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Pete Smith
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:34
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed tower for 160


This is my ignorant question for today -- with only an antenna analyzer,
how can I determine the resonant frequency of my tower?  I plan to attach a
first-attempt at shunt feed at about the 30-foot level, with 30-inch
spacing from the tower.  Can I tell from the analyzer reading at the bottom
of that shunt wire where the tower is resonant?  Do I need to put the
series capacitance in before attempting the measurement?  Or is it all
fruitless?

Clearly my education was neglected or I'd know the answer, so thanks for
your help and patience.

73, Pete N4ZR







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From n4kg@juno.com  Mon Jul 30 19:44:42 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:44:42 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed tower for 160
Message-ID: <20010730.152315.-189597.1.N4KG@juno.com>


N4KG comments inserted below.

On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 "WA9ALS - John" <wa9als@starband.net> writes:
> 
> I'm interested in this too, so will jump in now.  My main question 
> now is:
> 
> I have a C31XR at 72 ft - The elements are -not- grounded.  Thus I 
> assume much less (or none?) capacitance hat effect. 

	There will be LESS capacitance than if the elements were
	grounded.  There is still the loading effect of the BOOM
	which I assume is electrically connected to the tower.
	And don't forget the capacitive coupling between the tower 
	and the COAX which is connected to the driven elements.
	Tom  N4KG
	
 I therefore assume I 
> can still work out a shunt feed for -some- frequency(s), but they will
likely 
> be higher freq than if I had grounded elements and therefore more 
> capacitance at the top?

	TRUE
> 
> What do you think would be reasonable to shoot for with a 70 ft 
> tower with the ungrounded elements of the C31?  40M?  Maybe 80M?  
> Doubt 160M?? 

	Your best solution for 40M is a rotary dipole or 2L40.
	You could also short the center of the end elements
	to the boom and match the boom as a 40M end loaded 
	dipole.  I have posted my method on this several times.	
	It's a KILLER.   N4KG

	You could make separate shunt feeds for both 80 and 160.
	An antenna does NOT need to be resonant to radiate.
	I have matched a 50 ft tower topped by a TH3 on both
	160 and 80M.

	de  Tom  N4KG


________________________________________________________________
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From ValErwin@aol.com  Mon Jul 30 23:06:11 2001
From: ValErwin@aol.com (ValErwin@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 18:06:11 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cold Galvanizing Spray
Message-ID: <f3.d80e4b6.28973453@aol.com>


Steve:

I gotta' ask: Who is the manufacturer of "Brite Zinc"??

Val
W5PUT


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From ct4nh@mail.telepac.pt  Mon Jul 30 23:55:12 2001
From: ct4nh@mail.telepac.pt (Luis Teixeira)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 23:55:12 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] stacking KLMKT34XA with 6 el 50MHz beam
Message-ID: <006801c1194a$b168e340$7bb337d4@n7k2d6>


Hi!
Would like to profit 6m openings and thought to stack above my KLM KT
4XA  - which is mounted atop a tower with 18 m high (60 ft)  - one Eagle
(GW3YDX) 6 m 6 element yagi (boom lenght about 7 m long (DL6WU optimized
design)).
What should be the distance apart, in order do not have any interference
between them, and if I should rotate one of the antennas. The KLM is mounted
just above the top of the tower and the mast has an overall lenght (above
top of tower) of about 4.7 m.
I have also  - in another tower - a Force 12 C3 with a 5 el. Tonna 6 m Yagi
with the distance apart about 3 m.Works very well without any interference
between both antennas.
Tnx in advance for your opinions.

Best 73 de Luis, CT4NH just arrived in the Magic Band...



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From kc5ajx@hotmail.com  Tue Jul 31 00:04:56 2001
From: kc5ajx@hotmail.com (Rick Bullon)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 23:04:56 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cold Galvanizing Spray
Message-ID: <F7540tIh3WNyDjWXTEj0000c9f6@hotmail.com>





>From: ValErwin@aol.com
>To: steve@oakcom.com, towertalk@contesting.com
>Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Cold Galvanizing Spray
>Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 18:06:11 EDT
>
>
>Steve:
>
>I gotta' ask: Who is the manufacturer of "Brite Zinc"??
>
>Val
>W5PUT


Val
Here is the url for the manufacturer.

http://www.briteproducts.com/cgi-local/ab.pl/1/indexX.htm

You might need to call their 800 number on the web site and ask for a 
distributor near you as it looks like they only sell by the case.

I got the info from Bill N3RR webpage. Lots of good stuff there.

73
Rick
KC5AJX

_________________________________________________________________
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From steve@oakcom.com  Tue Jul 31 00:12:34 2001
From: steve@oakcom.com (Steve Maki)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 19:12:34 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cold Galvanizing Spray
In-Reply-To: <f3.d80e4b6.28973453@aol.com>
References: <f3.d80e4b6.28973453@aol.com>
Message-ID: <oaqbmtc3ch30ufulegllq6cgqhb8uq69oe@4ax.com>


W5PUT wrote:

>Steve:
>
>I gotta' ask: Who is the manufacturer of "Brite Zinc"??

Hi Val,

I just looked around for a can to check for the manufacturer,
and can't find one - looks like I need to order some more.

I did find a can of Brite Zinc-it, by CRC. That's not the
one though.

I buy Brite Zinc from Site Advantage at 888-748-3238. They
sell wholesale but accept credit cards. It comes in a 12 oz.
spray can for $6.39. It is much better than any other brand,
IME.

We are in the tower business and use a lot of the stuff.

73
--
Steve K8LX


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From howk2@hotmail.com  Tue Jul 31 00:17:18 2001
From: howk2@hotmail.com (Howard Klein)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 23:17:18
Subject: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed tower for 160
Message-ID: <F164i6bdVJWrGW6Ex3A00005b13@hotmail.com>


Bob,
Do you have any clues as to where this issues may be obtained? I have 
checked the commercial sources I could think of without success. I would 
glad to purchase the issue or copying costs from any source.

Howard M. Klein, K2HK



>From: "Bob Alexander" <realex@flash.net>
>
>
>Pete,
>Find a copy of May, 1975 Ham Radio magazine and check out the article 
>titled
>"How to Design Shunt-feed Systems for Grounded Vertical Radiators" by John
>True,
>W4OQ.  I do not think there has ever been a better "how to" article written
>about
>tower matching.
>73, Good Luck
>Bob, W5AH
>


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From blueis@sprintmail.com  Tue Jul 31 00:29:09 2001
From: blueis@sprintmail.com (Gary B ( RVN 'BTO' ))
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 19:29:09 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] V_I_R_U_S A_L_E_R_T
References: <3B65A24A.3DE74FAF@berkshire.net>
Message-ID: <005b01c1194f$73499f00$94026b83@sprintmail.com>


On  Monday, July 30, 2001 2:07 PM
Dave Robbins warned...

Subject: [TowerTalk] V_I_R_U_S A_L_E_R_T

I second what Dave said about the SirCam worm.  BE CAREFUL!!!  Over a three
day period, I received this thing 30 times on three different email
addresses!

The text on the ones I received stated:

I send this file for your advice

or something very close.  Attachment is usually 159kb from what I've seen,
although Dave says can be much bigger!  (I even called a van lines company
in AB, Canada and asked them to investigate their mail server!)

Supposedly, this worm can (and may) delete all files on the C: drive in
mid-October.

ZDNet also has good info on this bug.  Do a search for SirCam.  Choose
"Don't tip your hat..."  They had my copy pegged exactly!

Gary B
K3GB




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From leewical@lava.net  Tue Jul 31 01:18:52 2001
From: leewical@lava.net (LEE R. WICAL)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 14:18:52 -1000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cold Galvanizing Spray
In-Reply-To: <oaqbmtc3ch30ufulegllq6cgqhb8uq69oe@4ax.com>
References: <f3.d80e4b6.28973453@aol.com>
 <f3.d80e4b6.28973453@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010730141852.00962bc0@pop.lava.net>


Try 1-888-99BRITE




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From Martin Kratoska" <marcom@centrum.cz  Tue Jul 31 01:42:09 2001
From: Martin Kratoska" <marcom@centrum.cz (Martin Kratoska)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 02:42:09 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] AP8-A Vertical trap values
Message-ID: <001901c11959$a2376e50$6188543e@ok1rr>


Hi,

unfortunately I fried some traps on my AP8-A and the repair went not OK. I
am looking for capacitor and inductor values, also for resonant frequencies.
The Cushcraft support told me that they do not have any values, only the
traps should resonate some 1 MHz below band ... :-(

Any ideas?

73 Martin, OK1RR
ok1rr@qsl.net
http://www.qsl.net/ok1rr
----------------------------------------
WITHOUT CW IT IS JUST CB!
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.




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From dxdog@rcn.com  Tue Jul 31 01:54:46 2001
From: dxdog@rcn.com (Jerry Keller)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 20:54:46 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Second floor shack ideas - please
References: <B78ADA53.4F6F%nwtncc@iswt.com>
Message-ID: <007001c1195b$656c4fc0$07613bd0@j5u7j4>


Hi, Jamie...
I was hoping you might share some of the info you have received as I am
re-building my shack and can use all the input I can get!! Especially
websites of those who have already solved many of the problems.
Jerry K3MGT

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Hall" <nwtncc@iswt.com>
To: "Bill Hider" <n3rr@erols.com>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Second floor shack ideas - please


>
> Hi Bill:
>
> Thanks so much for your info.  YES, of course I have been to your site and
> am modeling much of my MUCH smaller station after yours ;)  The first
floor
> here has 10 foot ceilings so I am guessing about 14 feet to ground from
the
> shack - then out to the tower. I want to try to minimize cable runs to the
> shack with the use of antenna switches. I definitely have your site
> bookmarked, and if I ever find myself in your neighborhood, I'll look you
up
> !
>
> I'll have more to say on my situation - but for now, well, I sorta have
this
> day job ...  ;0  See www.nwtcc.com .
>
> Later,
>
> Jamie
> WB4YDL
>
> > From: "Bill Hider" <n3rr@erols.com>
> > Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 20:56:51 -0400
> > To: "James C. Hall, M.D." <nwtncc@iswt.com>
> > Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Second floor shack ideas - please
> >
> > James,
> >
> > If you haven't been to my Website, I'd suggest you look through it and
look
> > especially the design pages on lightning protection and cabling.
> > www.erols.com/n3rr
> >
> > Now that you have been to my website, you will see that my SPG is 8 foot
up
> > on my house, feeding the cables into the ceiling of my hamshack.  If
your
> > shack is higher that mine (Perhaps the floor of your shack is 15 above
> > ground?  What's the actual?), you might install an outdoor box at
> > floor-level of your shack and run two 3" conduits to the ground from
there
> > and on to the towers. Look at the photos I have on the lightning
protection
> > page.
> >
> > You don't say what the cable-distance is from the window of your shack
to
> > each tower. Nor do you say the cable-distance from the bottom of each
tower
> > to each of the antennas. All this will determine what kind of cable you
use.
> > (again, look at my website: cabling link.)
> >
> > Based on what types of cables you'll use plus the control cables, spare
> > cables, etc, will determine the conduit size.
> > Then, you'll need to determine where your A/C power, telephone, CATV,
DSS,
> > etc, enter the house.  You should plan to connect the grounds from all
these
> > devices to the SPG.  Then, you will be able to design a grounding system
> > *before* you install anything.  BE SURE YOU HAVE NO GROUND LOOPS IN YOUR
> > GROUND DESIGN.
> >
> > Again, use my website for reference.  Look at the ground grid design in
my
> > system: http://users.erols.com/n3rr/photos/grounding_pictorial.jpg
> >
> > Then look carefully at the examples in the Polyphone manual.  You should
be
> > able to extrapolate your design from these references.
> >
> > Depending on the height from the ground to the shack, you may want to
locate
> > your SPG at/near ground level.  That will keep the difference of
potential
> > of the SPG ground and the tower/AC/CATV/DSS ground less (which is
> > desirable).
> >
> > I think a proper design will be able to be determined once a
> > fully-dimensioned pictorial of your situation is available.
> > Once you have that, thoroughly review the Polyphone manual and example
> > installations like mine, then determine what you need.
> >
> > Once you have your next round of questions, I'll be glad to answer them.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Bill, N3RR
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of James C. Hall, M.D.
> > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 3:01 PM
> > To: towertalk@contesting.com
> > Subject: [TowerTalk] Second floor shack ideas - please
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello:
> >
> > I've been monitoring TT since this past Sept. and really enjoy the
> > discussions.  I am awaiting delivery of my first tower in 25 years - a
UST
> > HDX570 - and have LOTS of questions.  I went to Dayton for the first
time
> > this year and garnered lots of info including a Polyphaser manual.
Recently
> > there was a discussion about cable feed through and lightning
protection.
> > I've gone through all the TT archives and some very nice web sites,
which
> > have been all helpful, but nothing really addresses the problems of
> > grounding and lightning protection when your shack is on the 2nd floor.
> > I've tried some direct emailing and some have been most helpful - thanks
> > particularly to Dick Flanagan.
> >
> > Here's my setup : when we built our home, which sits on 30 acres of
rolling
> > hills, the XYL agreed to develop over the garage where I could have a
> > dedicated ham shack. Now, some mistakes were made (no, really!) and the
> > contractor's idea was to have a safety ground consisting of large gauge
> > copper wire which passes down behind the brick veneer to a ground rod.
The
> > rigs are attached to copper straps behind the desk and then attach to
the
> > ground rod which is virtually underneath me. Additionally, a utility box
was
> > placed in the drywall where two 1 inch electrical conduits went down
behind
> > the brick, under the drive, and out to the proposed tower site (about
100 ft
> > away). Actually, plans are for two towers to include a smaller R25 tower
for
> > satellite antennas.  The driveway has not been poured yet and consists
of
> > simply 33C rock for now - so I can dig into it now if I choose. Now
> > obviously there are limited amounts of cable that can be introduced into
> > these small conduits. I was thinking about running something like LMR400
and
> > rotor control cabling down each conduit where I can then attach remote
> > antenna switches. Then after reading the interesting posts on lightnig
> > protection I started to worry. I may be able to dig up the ground rod
under
> > me so as to attach a radial which would then connect to the tower ground
> > system - but where should the SPG be ? Conventional wisdom says outside
the
> > shack. I have a window which faces the proposed tower.  I seem to
remember a
> > window unit that could act as a SPG and then direct ground from there. I
> > would have to forget using the present conduits and go from the window
box
> > with new larger PVC conduit. I also need to consider feeding wire
antennas
> > for 80 and 160 meters. Oh, the antennas on the tower - Force 12 Mag
620/340
> > and 4BA separated by about 9 feet on a 20 foot Chrom-molly mast. The
wind
> > figure for this county (which seems to come up alot on this reflector)
is 70
> > MPH.
> >
> > What say you, TT'ers.  What is the best solution to a second floor shack
?
> > Comments and criticism on any and all of this would be appreciated.
> >
> > James C. Hall, MD
> > WB4YDL
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
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From Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com  Tue Jul 31 02:00:32 2001
From: Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com (Kenneth Hirschberg)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 18:00:32 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Caution
References: <F45ffNPL83mxMAKytto000088b7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002001c1195c$33b462f0$4b64530c@ken>


Rick -
THIS E-MAIL HAS NO ATTACHMENT.
Thanks for the warning yesterday.  My machine cleaned is now cleaned up.  It
was infected for about 3 hours before I knew what was going on.  The
v_i_r_u_s attached itself to _unread_ e-mails and then replied to them, so
it was invisible to me until I got some posts from TT.  (sent by others, but
with my name on them as the sender!)  Dirty tricks, indeed.  Thanks again.
Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Bullon" <kc5ajx@hotmail.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 10:43 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Caution


>
> I tried to sent this eairlier today but I think the sever ignored it
because
> of the V word so I will try it again
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Kenneth has tried to send me a file 3 times and everytime it contained the
> W32/BadTrans@MM v_i_r_u_s. I am sure that Kenneth is not doing this on
> purpose but has the v_i_r_u_s on his computer. Since it is from an address
> of a major antenna manufactuer I thought it would be a good idea to alert
> the list to be careful until he getts his computer clean. I would not try
> and open any attacments from this address for now
> 73
> Rick
> KC5AJX
>
> >From: "Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com>
> >To: <kc5ajx@hotmail.com>
> >Subject: Re: Re: Re: [TowerTalk] modeling software
> >Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 19:38:07 +0000
> >
> >'Rick Bullon' wrote:
> >====
> >- Kenneth you are still sending a v_i_r_u_s in your attachments. It
> >- W32/BadTrans@MM v_i_r_u_s. Mcafee says there is no fix for it yet.
> >- 73
> >- Rick
> >-
> >-
> >- >From: "Kenneth Hirschberg" <info@cal-av.com>
> >- >To: <kc5ajx@hotmail.com>
> >- >Subject: Re: Re: [TowerTalk] modeling software
> >- >Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 19:23:07 +0000
> >- >
> >- >'Rick Bullon' wrote:
> >- >====
> >- >-
> >- >- Kenneth, Check your computer you tried to send me a v_i_r_u_s in
this
> >- >- attachment. Hotmail scanns all attachments
> >
> >
> > > Take a look to the attachment.
> >
> >
> ><< searchURL.scr >>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>
>
> -----
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> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>



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From n4kg@juno.com  Tue Jul 31 01:05:36 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 18:05:36 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] stacking KLMKT34XA with 6 el 50MHz beam
Message-ID: <20010730.202128.-189597.1.N4KG@juno.com>


The 6M beam will be essentially invisible to the HF antenna.

To minimize interaction to the 6M beam FROM the HF antenna,
at least 1/4 WL on 6M should be used (i.e. at least 5 ft.)  
More is better (as usual).

Tom  N4KG


________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From dhearn@ix.netcom.com  Tue Jul 31 02:59:52 2001
From: dhearn@ix.netcom.com (dan hearn)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 18:59:52 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Shunt fed towers
Message-ID: <3B661118.A23C9EC6@ix.netcom.com>


After reading the comment by my old friend W5AH, I pulled my May 1975
Ham Radio to read the article. It is very complete, 6 pages with 4 sets
of curves. If someone will post it on their web page, I will send them a
copy.  73, Dan, N5AR


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From k2av@contesting.com  Tue Jul 31 05:31:52 2001
From: k2av@contesting.com (Guy Olinger, K2AV)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 00:31:52 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed tower for 160
References: <MABBIJFDFCIFMKGEEFNHOEPPCCAA.realex@flash.net> <004901c1191c$d32ffa00$3077fea9@jwf>
Message-ID: <009501c11979$b9aacbc0$0300a8c0@cruncher>


I modeled that with the following assumption: that I would ground the 20
meter ref and dir (only) to the boom which is grounded to the mast and
then to the tower . This places the voltage peak out at the end of the
longest and highest elements. That up 13 feet on a mast atop an 80 foot
Trylon self standing tower models to a resonant frequency around 1.7
MHz. I suspect in practice it will be lower than that, say ~1.6 MHz.

Based upon that I'm going to bury a lot of copper around the Trylon,
load it on 160 and deal with what crops  up.

-----------------

Guy Olinger
Apex, NC, USA

----- Original Message -----
From: "WA9ALS - John" <wa9als@starband.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed tower
for 160


>
> I'm interested in this too, so will jump in now.  My main question now
is:
>
> I have a C31XR at 72 ft - The elements are -not- grounded.  Thus I
assume
> much less (or none?) capacitance hat effect.  I therefore assume I can
still
> work out a shunt feed for -some- frequency(s), but they will likely be
> higher freq than if I had grounded elements and therefore more
capacitance
> at the top?
>
> What do you think would be reasonable to shoot for with a 70 ft tower
with
> the ungrounded elements of the C31?  40M?  Maybe 80M?  Doubt 160M??
Pete,
> I'd be interested in whatever appraoch you end up taking with your
project
> too!  Thanks
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bob Alexander <realex@flash.net>
> To: Pete Smith <n4zr@contesting.com>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:55 AM
> Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed
tower for
> 160
>
>
> >
> >
> > Pete,
> > Find a copy of May, 1975 Ham Radio magazine and check out the
article
> titled
> > "How to Design Shunt-feed Systems for Grounded Vertical Radiators"
by John
> > True,
> > W4OQ.  I do not think there has ever been a better "how to" article
> written
> > about
> > tower matching.
> > 73, Good Luck
> > Bob, W5AH
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > This is my ignorant question for today -- with only an antenna
analyzer,
> > how can I determine the resonant frequency of my tower?  I plan to
attach
> a
> > first-attempt at shunt feed at about the 30-foot level, with 30-inch
> > spacing from the tower.  Can I tell from the analyzer reading at the
> bottom
> > of that shunt wire where the tower is resonant?  Do I need to put
the
> > series capacitance in before attempting the measurement?  Or is it
all
> > fruitless?
> >
> > Clearly my education was neglected or I'd know the answer, so thanks
for
> > your help and patience.
> >
> > 73, Pete N4ZR
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
>
>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>




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From jimsmith@home.com  Tue Jul 31 06:43:00 2001
From: jimsmith@home.com (Jim Smith)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 22:43:00 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed tower for 160
References: <000b01bffb5b$491f0a70$13a60304@n9iww>
Message-ID: <3B664564.C7ACB10B@home.com>


Kevin

I accessed the URL and tried printing the info but parts of it
didn't print.  It appears that the formatting doesn't fit the
usual 8.5 x 11 paper.  Any ideas as to what I should to to get it
to print properly?

73 de Jim Smith VE7FO


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From n2mg@contesting.com  Tue Jul 31 14:27:13 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 31 Jul 2001 06:27:13 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed tower
 for 160
Message-ID: <20010731132713.14706.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>


The ARRL is selling the complete set of
Ham Radio Magazine on CD-ROM for $60.

http://www.arrl.org/catalog/?category=CD-ROMs&words=HRCD

73 Mike N2MG

On Mon, 30 July 2001, "Howard Klein" wrote:

> 
> 
> Bob,
> Do you have any clues as to where this issues may be obtained? I have 
> checked the commercial sources I could think of without success. I would 
> glad to purchase the issue or copying costs from any source.
> 
> Howard M. Klein, K2HK
> 
> 
> 
> >From: "Bob Alexander" <realex@flash.net>
> >
> >
> >Pete,
> >Find a copy of May, 1975 Ham Radio magazine and check out the article 
> >titled
> >"How to Design Shunt-feed Systems for Grounded Vertical Radiators" by John
> >True,
> >W4OQ.  I do not think there has ever been a better "how to" article written
> >about
> >tower matching.
> >73, Good Luck
> >Bob, W5AH
> >
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> 
> 
> 
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com

________________________________________________
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http://www.peoplepc.com 


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From n2mg@contesting.com  Tue Jul 31 14:30:11 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 31 Jul 2001 06:30:11 -0700
Subject: Fwd: RE: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed
 tower     for 160
Message-ID: <20010731133011.14810.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>


Oops, that's $150 for the COMPLETE set.  $60 is for aproximately 6 year's worth.

Mea culpa.

N2MG

------- Start of forwarded message -------
 
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] finding resonant frequency of a shunt-fed tower
	for 160
To: towertalk@contesting.com
From: Mike Gilmer - N2MG <n2mg@contesting.com>
Cc: howk2@hotmail.com
Date: 31 Jul 2001 06:27:13 PDT

The ARRL is selling the complete set of
Ham Radio Magazine on CD-ROM for $60.

http://www.arrl.org/catalog/?category=CD-ROMs&words=HRCD

73 Mike N2MG

On Mon, 30 July 2001, "Howard Klein" wrote:

> 
> 
> Bob,
> Do you have any clues as to where this issues may be obtained? I have 
> checked the commercial sources I could think of without success. I would 
> glad to purchase the issue or copying costs from any source.
> 
> Howard M. Klein, K2HK
> 
> 
> 
> >From: "Bob Alexander" <realex@flash.net>
> >
> >
> >Pete,
> >Find a copy of May, 1975 Ham Radio magazine and check out the article 
> >titled
> >"How to Design Shunt-feed Systems for Grounded Vertical Radiators" by John
> >True,
> >W4OQ.  I do not think there has ever been a better "how to" article written
> >about
> >tower matching.
> >73, Good Luck
> >Bob, W5AH
> >
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> 
> 
> 
> -----
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________________________________________________
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http://www.peoplepc.com 
		     
------- End of forwarded message -------

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
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From dhearn@ix.netcom.com  Tue Jul 31 15:41:04 2001
From: dhearn@ix.netcom.com (dan hearn)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 07:41:04 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Shunt fed towers
Message-ID: <3B66C380.41A33FF9@ix.netcom.com>


Kevin Adam has volunteered to scan and put the May 1975 article on the
Fort Wayne Radio Club web site. I am mailing a copy to him today. This
is not the same as the CQ article presently on the site. It includes a
chart to determine electrical length of different tower heights with
different types of antennas on top. Other charts give gamma rod length
and tuning capacitor values for 40,80, and 160 meters for various tower
electrical heights. It is , by far, the most complete information I have
seen anywhere on the subject. 
  I trust that Kevin will let us know when it is posted. 

73, Dan, N5AR


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From marc.wullaert3@pandora.be  Tue Jul 31 17:13:05 2001
From: marc.wullaert3@pandora.be (Marc Wullaert)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 18:13:05 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] CUSHCRAFT 40-2CD  manual need
Message-ID: <008601c119db$aff84460$c0b6e0d5@pandora.be>


Hi,
I lost my manual from my 40-2cd cushcraft 40mbeam (shorty-40).
My 40m is down ,took it appart ,cleaned and now ready to rebuild it
 but dont find my manual anymore.
Coud someone send me a copy.i search  the web ,but no luck.
I need all the dimensions to put it in CW band .

tks
marc on4ma




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From kkanakas@cisco.com  Tue Jul 31 18:01:53 2001
From: kkanakas@cisco.com (krishna)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 13:01:53 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] References to certified tower installers - D.C metro area
Message-ID: <3B66E481.44893E76@cisco.com>


Hi folks,

 My greetings to all.This forum has been very informative.

 Looks like the town may want me to use a certified rigger to
 install the tower. Thats what the building inspector said this morning.

 Probably a 25 - 35 ft Rohn 25 with a tribander on top, bracketed
 to the side of the garage.

 Can folks give me references to installers in the washington D.C metro
area.?

 Thanks
 krish
 w4/vu2vku




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From ve3tu@rac.ca  Tue Jul 31 19:38:38 2001
From: ve3tu@rac.ca (Steve)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:38:38 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] dual driven elements
Message-ID: <3B66FB2D.BEFE59E7@rac.ca>


Hi all, I am trying to model the dual driven elements a la KLM without
much success. I have tried changing the log periodic files that came
with Eznec 3 but it does not come up with results I expect. I am working

on modeling a 20m beam. A sample file would be appreciated.

73 Steve




List Sponsored by AN Wireless:  AN Wireless handles Rohn tower systems,
Trylon Titan towers, coax, hardline and more. Also check out our self
supporting towers up to 96 feet for under $1500!!  http://www.anwireless.com

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From n2mg@contesting.com  Tue Jul 31 21:23:46 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 31 Jul 2001 13:23:46 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Uncoiling CATV hardline
Message-ID: <20010731202346.8556.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>


Is there a good way to uncoil CATV (or other) hardline in a manner that will produce a relatively straight, un-kinked and bump-free line?   I can imagine "simply" uncoiling it slowly along the ground if the coil size/weight is manageable.  I have several coils that meet these criteria.  I'd also imagine that there'd be some residual "curl" left in the cable.

However, I have one large, heavy coil that is ~500 feet of jacketed 3/4" that is NOT on a spool (spool disintegrated).  I think this would prove to be way too big to roll along the ground. 

Any ideas?

Mike N2MG

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 

List Sponsored by AN Wireless:  AN Wireless handles Rohn tower systems,
Trylon Titan towers, coax, hardline and more. Also check out our self
supporting towers up to 96 feet for under $1500!!  http://www.anwireless.com

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From kkanakas@cisco.com  Tue Jul 31 21:39:26 2001
From: kkanakas@cisco.com (krishna)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:39:26 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Certified rigger
References: <3.0.6.32.20010731152546.009a8270@pop.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <3B67177E.D48D2005@cisco.com>


Pete,
 Thanks for the note.
 Will take a look at PVRC.

 Its been a long wait since i requested for the permit.
 I submitted a permit request for a roof mounted tower .
 This town inspector advised that it is better  not to
 put it on the roof. I did like the idea, since the homeowners
 assoc. also did recommend the same.

 I am not bound to take their recommendation, but i still wanted
 to make folks happy and keep the aesthetics intact as other people
 wish.

 So i went ahead, submitted revised plans for the ground mounted Rohn 25.
 He asked me for the Ice loading for the tower and the antenna,
 which i sent to him promptly.

 It is 3 weeks, and when i used to contact him, which was once a week,
 he would say that he was quite busy. The last week , i was told that
 he is sending me a written letter. Nothing showed up.

 I gave him a week , this morning, i got hold of him in person and he
 said that he is sending me a letter as to what needs to be done.

 Looks likely that he wants a rigger to do it.

 It is also the requirement of the town code.

 This is the link to the zoning ordinance.

http://fws.municode.com/CGI-BIN/om_isapi.dll?advquery=antenna&infobase=10218.nfo&record={2448}&s1=%2fCGI-BIN%2fom_isapi.dll%3finfobase%3d10218.nfo%26record%3d{D3}%26softpage%3dmccdoc&softpage=mccdochits

The original application was submitted in the first week of June.
I am patiently waiting, since taking up arms with these guys would not work.
It would cut the lines of communication.

The zoning administrator is a person, who is prompt in returning calls and is
friendly.
I might consider escalating it. But looks like the need for the rigger is a
requirement.

 Btw, i even picked up the volunteer consulting engineer info for a person in
the area from ARRL.
 I used the contact info for him from Qrz.com and sent him an email. No
response.
 The address as listed by Arrl is the persons old address. This was about a
week ago.
 I might have to contact the other ones.

Its a wait and watch game.
Anyway, thanks for asking.

73's
 krish

Pete Smith wrote:

> Hi Krish -- and welcome to the area.  You may want to check out the Potomac
> Valley Radio Club web page at www.pvrc.org.
>
> On your question -- I don't know where you live, but just on instinct I
> would not take that building inspector at his word.  I'm not sure I even
> know what a "certified rigger" is, unless we're talking about the type of
> people who install major industrial equipment and do steel building
> construction.  That would be ludicrous overkill.
>
> I've only lived in the area for 30 years, but I've never heard of such a
> requirement being imposed on any ham towers, much less little ones.  I
> think I'd ask for written proof of this requirement before acting on what
> you've been told.
>
> The ARRL (www.arrl.org) has volunteer consulting engineer and volunteer
> legal counsel programs that probably include someone in your area.  It
> wouldn't be a bad idea to contact one or both for advice if you don't make
> headway with the authorities.
>
> 73, Pete N4ZR


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From n3rr@erols.com  Tue Jul 31 21:37:02 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:37:02 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Zinc Chromate
Message-ID: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPMEJICDAA.n3rr@erols.com>


TTs:

I received a callback from Tempo re: Aircraft Zinc Chromate Primer model A-7
6889 A Green

It is available to commercial distributors by calling 800-845-2500 and
setting up an account.
Alternatively, they will give you the name/number of a local distributor in
your area.

This primer is industrial grade and is quite toxic.  If you use it, read and
follow the directions on the can.

73,

Bill, N3RR


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From kkanakas@cisco.com  Tue Jul 31 22:04:28 2001
From: kkanakas@cisco.com (krishna)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 17:04:28 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Certified rigger
References: <3.0.6.32.20010731152546.009a8270@pop.abs.adelphia.net> <3B67177E.D48D2005@cisco.com>
Message-ID: <3B671D5C.1D308BFE@cisco.com>


Oops,
 I apologize on the link.

 Please copy and paste the URL/html link in a new instance of the internet browser window.

Thanks
krish
w4/vu2vku




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From ve3tu@rac.ca  Tue Jul 31 16:50:08 2001
From: ve3tu@rac.ca (Steve)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:50:08 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] model dual driven elements
Message-ID: <3B66D3B0.3056F77E@rac.ca>


Hi all, I am trying to model the dual driven elements a la KLM without
much success. I have tried changing the log periodic files that came
with Eznec 3 but it does not come up with results I expect. I am working
on modeling a 20m beam. A sample file would be appreciated.

73 Steve


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From watson@sierracmp.com  Tue Jul 31 23:31:21 2001
From: watson@sierracmp.com (George K. Watson)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:31:21 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Interaction betwixt 6m antennas
In-Reply-To: <20010731202346.8556.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLLMHKKAKEHMBEFBLMEHHDOAA.watson@sierracmp.com>


How much interaction can I expect between a 6m beam mounted 21Ft above my
roof and a 3band
(6m,2m,70cm) vertical mounted about 10ft below it? The beam is an M2 6M7 on
a Glenn Martin
roof tower. The vertical is a Diamond that I will use for local repeater on
all three bands.
They are about 12ft apart and the vertical is about 10ft below the elements
on the 6M7.

George K. Watson
K0IW


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From hankarn@pacbell.net  Tue Jul 31 23:48:58 2001
From: hankarn@pacbell.net (Dan)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 15:48:58 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Zinc Chromate
References: <GGECJGPIDOIKFJOHKBIPMEJICDAA.n3rr@erols.com>
Message-ID: <3B6735DA.770653FD@pacbell.net>


FYI Zinc Chromate is not to be applied as a cover coat it is more or
less a fog coat to be done properly. PERIOD end of statement.

Hank
KN6DI

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From n4kg@juno.com  Tue Jul 31 23:29:15 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:29:15 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Uncoiling CATV hardline
Message-ID: <20010731.172801.-244365.0.N4KG@juno.com>


For cable still on a spool, the best way is to mount it on a pole
and pull _evenly_ and _consistently_.  This is best accomplished
if there is some sort of drag on the spool.

Without a spool, I unroll the winding on the ground by walking
_on_ the cable.  It helps to keep your back foot on the cable,
or have another person follow you, to prevent the cable from
'kicking up', which forms kinks.  It also helps to have a few
hundred feet of open space to do this in.

Tom  N4KG

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From w5kp@swbell.net  Tue Jul 31 23:54:45 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 17:54:45 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] MARC question
Message-ID: <007a01c11a13$cd2f1440$9d09b8d1@jkdesktop>


If a calculation says you need say a 60,000 PSI mast with a .250" wall, then
as an example would a 120,000 PSI mast with a .188 wall be an acceptable
substitute? I haven't found a way to answer this using MARC. Actually, I
wish MARC was an Excel spreadsheet, so a guy could do "what-ifs" to his
heart's content. How 'bout it, Steve??  :-)

Tks, Jerry W5KP



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