From coneal@ma.ultranet.com  Fri Jun  1 00:22:08 2001
From: coneal@ma.ultranet.com (Chuck O'Neal)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:22:08 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete
Message-ID: <01C0EA06.FCF6A5E0@h0000949882e8.ne.mediaone.net>

Thank you folks!
Interesting comments.  A good summary of concerns
regarding my original question can be found at:
http://www.qth.com/ka9fox/pier_pin_vs_embedded_base.txt
This was referred to me by another list member.   I asked
the question since I've been a pier pin user and now am
be putting up another group of towers.  Just wondered if anything
was new!  As an aside, I had a 3E 75 M yagi on 110' of
Rohn 45 for 8 years, a modified KLM beam, and it went through a 
100+ MPH hurricane (Gloria) and the tower twisted +/- 30 deg
at the top, and the pier pin, the flat plate on the concrete,
was moving +/- 10 deg or so...quite scary but the whole system
survived!  The plate on the concrete was sitting on a disk of 1/8"
thick SS (304) about 10" in dia.  This allows rotation at the base
which provides the degree of freedom necessary for the pier pin
approach to work, I believe.  The flat plate supplied by Rohn
I think negates the advantage when placed on concrete
unless one provides a "bearing" surface with some "give to it.   
73,
Chuck...K1KW


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From davidw@copper.net  Fri Jun  1 00:43:57 2001
From: davidw@copper.net (David J. Windisch)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:43:57 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] New Source for Yagi Ubolts
References: <3B148178.F6192469@easystreet.com> <006501c0e8f1$ee0a7900$26a71cd8@davidw> <3B16B12A.7791E4BE@easystreet.com>
Message-ID: <003801c0ea2b$90f766c0$1fa71cd8@davidw>

Well, couldn't it just be that you have not experienced every possible
environment where galvanic action might take place?  The term "advertising
puffery" offends me and suggests that I am not telling the truth in my ads.
I
am about to take down one of my towers where there is a Telrex aluminum boom
to
mast plate at the 125 foot level with severe pitting of the aluminum where
it
has been in contact with stainless steel bolts.  When I get it down, I will
photograh it and put it on my web page for all to see . . .

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hi, Stan:

No, I haven't experienced, and didn't claim to experience, every possible
environment where galvanic action might take place.   I suppose, under some
condition, most any metal in contact with another will pit ..

'Advertising puffery' is one of the nicely-pejorative ways attorneys refer
humorously to claims in advertising .. eg, antenna gain in CQ ads.   The
offense you take was not intended by me to be taken.

It has been my experience, over the last 30 years, that the s/s I've used on
antennas, subject to the magnet test, has not reacted with al antenna parts.
It's still shiny-bright.  My 'control' s/s, not used in antennas because it
was attracted, does have discoloration.   Should have mentioned that that
'magnet test' came from the experience of chem-metallurgy types at
Westinghouse in Baltimore.

I haven't experienced the pitting you describe, or seen it on the many
antennas passing across my hands, the antennas whose hardware passed the
magnet test, that is.

I'm sorry for the effort you will have to expend shortly cuz of some bad
hardware.

73, Dave, K3BHJ






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From hankarn@pacbell.net  Fri Jun  1 00:51:56 2001
From: hankarn@pacbell.net (Dan)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:51:56 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Identifing a tower
References: <3B1697F7.220C3EE5@kb0ozn.com>
Message-ID: <3B16D91C.F83BE3E8@pacbell.net>

Yes with all of the antennas build a cyclone fence around the total
falling range plus a few feet and post GREAT BIG DANGER signs and alarms
so no one gets inside the cage when it falls. Take out a BIG insurance
policy for UNSAFE ANTENNA towers, poles whatever you want to call it.
You are asking to get hurt. 

Hank
KN6DI

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From lclarks@nc.rr.com  Fri Jun  1 01:22:25 2001
From: lclarks@nc.rr.com (Larry Stowell)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 20:22:25 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] tower selection
Message-ID: <009d01c0ea30$ef485a40$4d131918@nc.rr.com>

Well Have about made the decision to go with an Aluma tower,I just can't
picture spending $2400 for shipping for the US tower.

So I'm wondering if any body has the T-75XHD with the ground post mounting
??

Thanks 73's

Larry WA2SRY



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From W8JI@contesting.com  Fri Jun  1 01:26:35 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 20:26:35 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] HEX  Beam
In-Reply-To: <3B169E6E.88759BF5@interaccess.com>
Message-ID: <200106010028.f510Ses27121@paris.akorn.net>

> In addition to <http://www.hexbeam.com>, there is a good description and
> analysis at <http://www.cebik.com/4.html>.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Bill, W9NHQ

That's a nice analysis at the W4RNL site. It looks like the Hex 
Beam has a maximum gain of just over 3 dBd (just under 6 dBi), 
which is about what anyone should expect with a physically small 
antenna.

Of course receiving is not hampered by the reduced gain, since 
F/B and pattern are good. 3 dB is still decent gain, especially of 
you can rotate the antenna and get it up in the clear.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From w5kp@swbell.net  Fri Jun  1 02:47:24 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (Jerry W5KP)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 20:47:24 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 45G arrived
Message-ID: <015701c0ea3c$cf2946a0$7521c1cf@w5kpnotebook>

Thanks to all for the outstanding support and advice on this little tower
project. This is still the best list in webdom, far as I'm concerned.

Big day today, the 45G arrived. I can wholeheartedly recommend National
Electronics (800-762-5049) in Shawnee Mission, KS as a Rohn dealer for those
within midwest shipping distance. I ordered my 45G and accessories on
Tuesday afternoon, and it arrived at the Oklahoma City freight terminal at
lunchtime today (Thursday). I'm pretty sure most dealers would still be
screwing around with the order paperwork at this point, but not National.
They ship RIGHT NOW. Don't know how anyone could ask for better service than
that! I also liked their prices. Only problem was the freight carrier
destroyed one 10' section with a forklift tine, but I'm sure I'll have a
replacement in hand long before I need it, since now I have to start digging
holes in sandrock, and that ain't gonna happen overnight. I plan to give it
the old manual method try first, using a rented electric jackhammer (after
all, it isn't limestone or granite!). If that doesn't work out, I guess I'll
call in the big boys with the hydraulic jackhammers mounted on backhoes, or
whatever. It's possible to get a contractor here to drill ("vertical bore")
as deep as you want, using a humongous 24", 30", or 36" bit, but I have not
yet investigated the cost of that. I've watched them do some holes for us in
the phone company, and man they can make short work of a big hole.

Thanks again to all talkians for all the help so far.
73, Jerry W5KP



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From K7LXC@aol.com  Fri Jun  1 03:07:09 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:07:09 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] conduit for mast
Message-ID: <6e.b01af70.284852cd@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/31/01 3:34:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mike@kb0ozn.com 
writes:

> Ok Ok, I get the idea that conduit is a bad idea.
>  
    For a mast? Not always. 

>  Let me ask this, in general is it ok to use a ham IV with a 10 foot mast
>  given that all those antennas will be a windload of about 8 sq feet I'm
>  guessing.  This would be the order of antennas, 6m 3el beam, a 2m 15el
>  beam, a 70cm 24el beam, a 33cm 20el beam, a 23cm 25el looper, and a 13cm
>  40el looper with maybe a vertical on the top for 2m/70cm.  This is from
>  the bottom up.

    Hennepin County is an 80 MPH windspeed zone so you need to be a little 
more careful about your material selection.

    The problem with using conduit or pipe is that they are designed to carry 
liquids and are not rated for strength like tubing is. That said, big masts 
are called for when you've got big loads (typically an HF stack) and big 
winds. For your proposed installation of "little" antennas (no offense) the 
bending moment on the mast is probably going to be pretty small (a relative 
term) and may be within the limits of some conduit. 

    I ran some approximate numbers thru my MARC (Mast, Antenna and Rotator 
Calculator) Program but it was sort of meaningless without knowing the 
specifics. Give me the square footage of each antenna and its height above 
the top of the tower; then I can make a more educated recommendation. 

    If you're putting one antenna at the top of the tower, then a pipe or 
conduit may be just the ticket since there is almost no bending moment if 
you're within a foot or so of the top of the tower. For example, mast bending 
moment at top of tower = x psi; m.b.m. at two feet = 2x psi; m.b.m. at ten 
feet up the mast = 10x psi. That's why you want to have something suitable 
with a loaded mast. With one big antenna at the top of the tower, just about 
anything will handle the bending moment. 

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 
MARC is available from Champion Radio Products

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From earldery@home.com  Fri Jun  1 03:32:26 2001
From: earldery@home.com (earldery)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:32:26 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] New Source for Yagi Ubolts
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010531192144.009ec3b0@mail>


I'm sorry for the effort you will have to expend shortly cuz of some bad
hardware.
73, Dave, K3BHJ

Hi Dave,
I don't believe that it is a question of "bad hardware". Based on your test 
of using a magnet to check the type of Stainless Steel used, I can 
guarantee that my hardware is top quality. I do get action between Aluminum 
and Stainless which I believe is because I am not to far from Salt Water. 
It is the environment
that causes the problem. Fortunately I have not experienced the problem to 
the extent Stan has, and that is probably due to my being inland ~ 2.5 
miles and about 300feet above sea-level.
73 Earl VE7IN




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From N0OEL@aol.com  Fri Jun  1 03:35:00 2001
From: N0OEL@aol.com (N0OEL@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:35:00 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Identifing a tower
Message-ID: <5f.15e21fe2.28485954@aol.com>

I am sure that Steve knows more than I do about this but I recall that 
Universal
recommends nothing of that size windload more than 6 feet about a tower neck.
And even that will drive a Ham IV nuts without guidance above the rotor.    I 
think you
are really pushing it to the edge putting that much windload on a rotor with 
a 
10 foot mast.   

73
MIke
K0BUD
Minneapolis

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From k5go@alltel.net  Fri Jun  1 05:57:06 2001
From: k5go@alltel.net (Stan Stockton)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:57:06 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Lexan
References: <4.3.2.20010531102334.00c65920@mail.ricc.net>
Message-ID: <007501c0ea57$4faf0b60$071a66a6@server>

John,

I work for a parking meter company and the domes in the parking meters are
Lexan.  As I recall the injection molder adds UV inhibitor to the basic
material.  After about 5 years they may start to turn a little yellow, but
hold up for a long time structurally.  I would investigate to see whether
the particular stuff you have gotten has had anything added for UV
protection.  I think if it has not, it may not hold up the way you would
want.

Stan, K5GO
----- Original Message -----
From: "W0UN--Signal Hill Ranch" <shr@ricc.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 11:34 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Lexan


> My wife brought home some scrap sheets of Lexan
> from work for making antenna parts.  (Love a woman
> who understands my NEEDS!)
>
> Hope to use this stuff for the insulated mountings for
> the matching networks and connectors for VHF and UHF
> Yagis.
>
> Just wonder what experience anyone has with the
> UV-resistance of Lexan.  This is 3/16 inch sheet
> and is clear.  Mechanically it will be fine--just don't
> want to have to replace it in a few years from UV
> degradation.
>
> BTW  She also brought me a 12 x 12 inch by 1 inch
> thick sheet of Teflon.  Have used Teflon before on some
> old W0EYE/Viezbicke/NBS688 Yagis and it has worked
> well for that design--but wanting to try some alternate
> mechanical designs and this Lexan looks promising.
>
> Appreciate any insights/experiences on clear Lexan.
>
> Thanks.
>
> 73--John  W0UN
>
>
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>
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From k5go@alltel.net  Fri Jun  1 06:29:59 2001
From: k5go@alltel.net (Stan Stockton)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 00:29:59 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete
References: <3B169335.2984B1BD@gte.net> <3B169881.673C16BF@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <00a401c0ea5b$e92c6c20$071a66a6@server>

On Kurt's website he makes the following observation referring to a tower
that is mounted on a pier with the equivalent of a ball socket mount:

"Putting the tower on a free base connection has allowed us to increase the
antenna loads by 49%."

 I am interested in a practical means of achieving this type of free
rotating base. Will be out of town for 8 days, but will be interested to see
if someone has a good, practical way of achieving this.

I've got towers buried in concrete and ones on flat plates with a pin coming
out of the base. I prefer the ones that are on flat plates, for several
reasons.

Stan , K5GO


----- Original Message -----
From: "alsopb" <alsopb@gloryroad.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete


> I have been following this thread and see only tangential references
> to the type of pier pin installations I've seen.
>
> First, they use a flat bottom plate on the concrete.  I doubt that
> these rotate at all to relieve the moment at the bottom.  Kurt's
> analysis looked at this and concluded it almost is equivalent to a
> burried installation.
>
> Second, I see no reference to the complicated rebar cage that one has
> to put in the hole to make up for the missing tower section.
>
> It appears that this type of "pier pin" base is the worst of both
> worlds.
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>
> Hank Lonberg wrote:
>
> > With the pier pin base there is no moment developed at the base.
>
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From K7NV@contesting.com  Fri Jun  1 09:46:19 2001
From: K7NV@contesting.com (Kurt Andress)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 01:46:19 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete
References: <3B169335.2984B1BD@gte.net> <3B169881.673C16BF@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <3B17565B.CD2F06BA@contesting.com>

Hi All,

Just to clarify a few things....

----------------------------------------------------------------------
alsopb wrote:
> 
> I have been following this thread and see only tangential references
> to the type of pier pin installations I've seen.
> 
> First, they use a flat bottom plate on the concrete.  I doubt that
> these rotate at all to relieve the moment at the bottom.  Kurt's
> analysis looked at this and concluded it almost is equivalent to a
> burried installation.
> 

I think there may be potential for a bit of confusion about what various
people mean when refering to "a pier pin" base.
The text referred to here, was in the context of comparing the difference
between a base buried in the footing and the "pier pin" type of tower base
that uses a full sized tower section footprint on the pier (a full sized
section with a big flat plate sitting on the pier). I do not see that there
is any appreciable ability of that base to free itself of the base bending
moment by leaning over, as it is being held fairly firmly against the
footing by the axial tower load. If it actually did lean over at the base,
it would most likely overload a leg. This type of "pier pin" base
connection is the only one available for Rohn 25G, and is one of two types
available for Rohn 45G. 

The other base termination available for 45G (and larger sizes) probably
should referred to it as a "tapered pier pin" base. The 45G part no. is
45TG. The difference is that the bottom of that section looks like an
upside
down pointed top section. The legs come together at the bottom and are
terminated on a small diameter plate with a hole in the center to sit over
"the pier pin." (the steel pin embedded in the concrete pier). This base
has
more freedom to rotate axially and torsionally than the other type. You can
find examples of this type of section in the Rohn commercial catalogue.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stan Stockton wrote:
> 
> On Kurt's website he makes the following observation referring to a tower
> that is mounted on a pier with the equivalent of a ball socket mount:
> 
> "Putting the tower on a free base connection has allowed us to increase the
> antenna loads by 49%."
> 

Be careful....
It is important to look at what's in the discussion in the full perspective
of what is being looked at and what is not. The cited statement means that
it took 49% more antenna load to generate the same combined stress (as
defined) at the base. That is not all that is going on. 
Some things not being considered there were the resulting loads in the
individual tower section members (legs & braces), or the global buckling
status of the tower spans.

The intent of the study was to look at relative behavior, not absolute
design, to show some basic things like the relative effect (and importance)
of guy selection (and its associated elongation), load distribution, and
base constraints. Think of it as taking a look at what the tower under
consideration does when the changes are made, not what you can do with any
old tower.

I apologize if that has caused confusion, it was not intended to do so, but
rather get people thinking about some things that had previously been
absent from the general discussion here. It's simply a "please think about
this" suggestion.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are differences between what Hank posted today about his model and
what is found in the tower bizzo on my website. There are some substantial
differences between the load cases in the two, so they should not be
expected to say the same thing.

The tower in Hank's example appears to be limited by column buckling in the
lower span between the base and lower guy connection. When that is the
case, the potential benefit from simply freeing up the base connection
can't be realized. If the bending loads at the tower base are not the
limiting factor, improving them won't help. The tower span buckling problem
can be changed to make something else the limiting factor, and there are a
lot of other things to try.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sometimes, trying to say anything about this stuff is a recipe for
disaster, because it is impossible to say everything, or enough to not
cause confusion. That's probably why we go so long between these things.
Hank has found that there's no difference between a pier pin base and a
buried one, so everyone should go with that.

-- 
73, Kurt, K7NV

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From davidw@copper.net  Fri Jun  1 11:34:46 2001
From: davidw@copper.net (David J. Windisch)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 06:34:46 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] New Source for Yagi Ubolts
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010531192144.009ec3b0@mail>
Message-ID: <001f01c0ea86$7b0953e0$1ea71cd8@davidw>

SNIP
It is the environment
that causes the problem. Fortunately I have not experienced the problem to
the extent Stan has, and that is probably due to my being inland ~ 2.5
miles and about 300feet above sea-level.
73 Earl VE7IN
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hi, Earl and all others concerned:

Hmmmmmm .. lotsa fiberglas-hulled boats with aluminum masts, booms, spars,
and s/s rigging out there on salt water .. there has to be at least one
reader who could comment on what these folks do to minimize or avoid the
problems re al-s/s contact.

If Stan's place is near Portland, it could be as many as 50 mi. inland, far
enough, I would think, to avoid the salt rain on the coast.

Wonder if the grade of al has anything to do with it?    The antennas I've
made have been 6061-T6 cuz 'everybody uses that' ;o).

73, Dave, K3BHJ



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From n4kg@juno.com  Fri Jun  1 13:01:23 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 06:01:23 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete
Message-ID: <20010601.064532.-103599.1.N4KG@juno.com>

There has been a lot of speculation that the downward
forces on the base plate would prevent rotation about
a pier pin.  I know of one example where I'm sure there
was enough torque to rotate about a pier pin.

N4AR has a pair of 200 ft R45 towers with the bottom
sections in concrete.  One of these towers has a 4 high
stack of CC 4L20's.  After a tornado passed by his QTH
he was cleaning up around the base of the tower when a
finger went down into a hole.  The tower rotated enough
to SHEAR OFF all 3 legs!

de  Tom  N4KG


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From w2up@mindspring.com  Fri Jun  1 13:38:52 2001
From: w2up@mindspring.com (Barry Kutner)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:38:52 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete
In-Reply-To: <20010601.064532.-103599.1.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <200106011238.IAA28989@smtp6.mindspring.com>

On 1 Jun 01, at 6:01, n4kg@juno.com wrote:

> There has been a lot of speculation that the downward
> forces on the base plate would prevent rotation about
> a pier pin.  I know of one example where I'm sure there
> was enough torque to rotate about a pier pin.
> 
> N4AR has a pair of 200 ft R45 towers with the bottom
> sections in concrete.  One of these towers has a 4 high
> stack of CC 4L20's.  After a tornado passed by his QTH
> he was cleaning up around the base of the tower when a
> finger went down into a hole.  The tower rotated enough
> to SHEAR OFF all 3 legs!
> 
> de  Tom  N4KG
> 

Makes me wonder if his guys were properly tensioned.
Barry
--
Barry Kutner, W2UP              Internet: w2up@mindspring.com
Newtown, PA         FRC         alternate: barry@w2up.wells.com

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From kb0gus@hotmail.com  Fri Jun  1 13:32:03 2001
From: kb0gus@hotmail.com (Josh T)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 07:32:03 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna Raising Injury
Message-ID: <F2470c5fh6b6E48QhnH00015d84@hotmail.com>

Well, After starting the lengthy conversation about electrical safety (Thank 
you all for your comments... I will worry more about that when I decide to 
re-do my antenna layout)... Anyway, I decided to put up a 30/15m dipole.. I 
started too late last Sat night and by they time I had the antenna made it 
was dark... I have pulley at the top of my 35 foot mast and I was raising 
that antenna along with my G5RV back up when my hand slipped off the rope... 
Well, both centers of my 2 dipoles came quickly down from 34 1/2 feet (I was 
almost there) and hit me right above the eyebrow... I DIDN'T EVEN SEE IT 
COMING BECAUSE IT WAS DARK

Well I tried one more time to raise the antennas up, but had to stop because 
of the blood in my eyes...

After my trip to the hospital and 5 stitches later, I came back... and 
finally got my antennas back up...

And they work great... very close to 1/1 swr on 30...

Just though you all would get a kick out of my antenna raising experience... 
and it was worth every stitch... hi

Josh - KB0GUS
_________________________________________________________________
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From n4zr@contesting.com  Fri Jun  1 13:20:06 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 08:20:06 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete
In-Reply-To: <20010601.064532.-103599.1.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010601082006.007b3c00@mail.abs.adelphia.net>

At 06:01 AM 6/1/01 -0600, n4kg@juno.com wrote:
>There has been a lot of speculation that the downward
>forces on the base plate would prevent rotation about
>a pier pin.  I know of one example where I'm sure there
>was enough torque to rotate about a pier pin.
>
>N4AR has a pair of 200 ft R45 towers with the bottom
>sections in concrete.  One of these towers has a 4 high
>stack of CC 4L20's.  After a tornado passed by his QTH
>he was cleaning up around the base of the tower when a
>finger went down into a hole.  The tower rotated enough
>to SHEAR OFF all 3 legs!

Seems to me that inserting a sheet of some engineering plastic material
with a relatively low coefficient of friction between the bottom plate and
the top of the concrete base might facilitate this sort of rotation.
Wouldn't do anything to help with bending, though. 

73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From k9huh@icss.net  Fri Jun  1 14:26:39 2001
From: k9huh@icss.net (Ted & Joyce Wilhelm)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 08:26:39 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna Raising Injury
References: <F2470c5fh6b6E48QhnH00015d84@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3B17980F.1115@icss.net>

Accidents do happen and thats why contrary to some of the ill given
advice you have received on this reflector AVOID ANY AND ALL contact
with electrical lines......Expect the the unexpected to happen because
it just may and a lot of times does.....just one unusal accident just
like you had and throw in the danger of live feed lines and you might be
going to the hospital for more than stiches......Why tempt
fate????because of stupidty??????no its not neccesary.....Murphy shows
up in the wierdest and most unusal times........Good DXing
Ted  K9HUH       "HUH"

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Fri Jun  1 14:38:32 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:38:32 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete
Message-ID: <a1.16311ba3.2848f4d8@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/31/01 10:31:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, k5go@alltel.net 
writes:

> I've got towers buried in concrete and ones on flat plates with a pin coming
>  out of the base. I prefer the ones that are on flat plates, for several
>  reasons.

    Okay - I'll bite. What are the reasons?

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Fri Jun  1 14:44:17 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:44:17 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna Raising Injury
Message-ID: <67.14d96b1e.2848f631@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/1/01 5:44:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
kb0gus@hotmail.com writes:

> Just though you all would get a kick out of my antenna raising 
experience... 
>  and it was worth every stitch... hi

    Hmm...no pain, no gain (pun intended!). 

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From mel@interlink.net  Fri Jun  1 14:55:24 2001
From: mel@interlink.net (Mel Martin)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 09:55:24 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Anybody try the F12 XR49 or XR51
Message-ID: <3B179ECC.925BE0A8@interlink.net>

Well I'm finally replacing the beams I lost in the Ice storm of '98. I
have a 150' guyed tower with a HyGain HDR300A, and I'm wondering what to
put on top. That XR49 looks interesting! Anyone tried it? Perhaps a
better choice for me would be the XR51 (40M fan)... anyone care to
relate their experience these? I would like to hear any info regarding
their installation. They are bigger than anything I've tried to install
in the past.  Another possibility would be a more modest HyGain TH11
with a 2 el 40. Any suggestions for a reasonable antenna to stack with
the TH11? Stacking distance?

Thanks in advance.

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From shr@ricc.net  Fri Jun  1 14:57:13 2001
From: shr@ricc.net (W0UN--Signal Hill Ranch)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 07:57:13 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Lexan
In-Reply-To: <20010531174054.87329.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <4.3.2.20010531102334.00c65920@mail.ricc.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.20010601072328.00c7c5b0@mail.ricc.net>

Thanks for all of the helpful comments.  I have found that
others with direct experience in my specific application can
be complementary to web searching.  I discovered that some
of the pieces have some info on their paper covers and
by piecing together the partial info from a number of the
pieces I was able to determine that the Lexan is GE MR10
and has a GUARANTEE of not discoloring from UV for
a period of 10 years.  Sounds pretty good.  I was also
able to find some cleaning info and recommended
cleaning agents, including isopropyl alcohol.  Not sure why
one respondent had problems with alcohol--maybe the sheet
wasn't really Lexan or maybe this GE MR10 is somehow
better or different.

So it does look like I can use this stuff for my antenna
projects and they should last for at least 10 years!  Probably
more, and there is no telling how long I will last after my
recent aortic valve replacement!   ;-)      (But things are
looking good--I am back to riding motorcycles and that
will surely do me in long before any heart problems will!)

To those who commented on my wife and my luck at
finding a "Keeper".  You don't know half of the story!
She has a turbo diesel 4x4 F-250 to pull her new
28 ft travel trailer.  She had FIVE motorcycles when I met
her (3 BMWs and 2 dirt bikes).  She has dropped down to
only 4 now--but has upgraded the BMWs.  She is studying
for her ham ticket and she designed the sheet metal
for the Alpha 99 amp!  AND SHE CAN COOK TOO!    ;-)
Oh, did I mention that she has a SHOPSMITH with a LOT
of accessories?  (Photo available upon request--wife, not the
Shopsmith.)

--John  W0UN


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From steve@oakcom.com  Fri Jun  1 15:32:10 2001
From: steve@oakcom.com (Steve Maki)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 10:32:10 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete
In-Reply-To: <00a401c0ea5b$e92c6c20$071a66a6@server>
References: <3B169335.2984B1BD@gte.net> <3B169881.673C16BF@gloryroad.net> <00a401c0ea5b$e92c6c20$071a66a6@server>
Message-ID: <fe9fhtkqieh60gfe7qdlvtpsegmguoe02j@4ax.com>

"Stan Stockton" <k5go@alltel.net> wrote:

>On Kurt's website he makes the following observation referring to a tower
>that is mounted on a pier with the equivalent of a ball socket mount:
>
>"Putting the tower on a free base connection has allowed us to increase the
>antenna loads by 49%."
>
> I am interested in a practical means of achieving this type of free
>rotating base. Will be out of town for 8 days, but will be interested to see
>if someone has a good, practical way of achieving this.

IF the Rohn flat plate were strong enough, one could simply place a
small spacer, like a large nut, around the pin & under the plate.

So the obvious solution would be to beef up the Rohn plate to an
appropriate thickness. I would guess 3/4" would do it for normal
ham installs. Kurt?

--
Steve K8LX

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From domino@voicenet.com  Fri Jun  1 15:40:48 2001
From: domino@voicenet.com (Frank Mayer)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 10:40:48 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Anybody try the F12 XR49 or XR51
References: <3B179ECC.925BE0A8@interlink.net>
Message-ID: <011f01c0eaa8$e3e33ee0$ec5d67cf@domino>

I've had the c-36XR now for about 6 months and I'm very pleased with it..I
work alot of 40M in the mornings with the VK's and ZL's and it does a great
job...They no longer make the C-36..The new model is the C-39XR which also
looks very good..
Frank, WY3D


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From steve@oakcom.com  Fri Jun  1 16:26:53 2001
From: steve@oakcom.com (Steve Maki)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:26:53 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete
In-Reply-To: <fe9fhtkqieh60gfe7qdlvtpsegmguoe02j@4ax.com>
References: <3B169335.2984B1BD@gte.net> <3B169881.673C16BF@gloryroad.net> <00a401c0ea5b$e92c6c20$071a66a6@server> <fe9fhtkqieh60gfe7qdlvtpsegmguoe02j@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <glcfht0apk7bljm4dcndoqafrql3eo52if@4ax.com>

Steve Maki <steve@oakcom.com> wrote:

>"Stan Stockton" <k5go@alltel.net> wrote:
>
>>On Kurt's website he makes the following observation referring to a tower
>>that is mounted on a pier with the equivalent of a ball socket mount:
>>
>>"Putting the tower on a free base connection has allowed us to increase the
>>antenna loads by 49%."
>>
>> I am interested in a practical means of achieving this type of free
>>rotating base. Will be out of town for 8 days, but will be interested to see
>>if someone has a good, practical way of achieving this.
>
>IF the Rohn flat plate were strong enough, one could simply place a
>small spacer, like a large nut, around the pin & under the plate.
>
>So the obvious solution would be to beef up the Rohn plate to an
>appropriate thickness. I would guess 3/4" would do it for normal
>ham installs. Kurt?

As K3KO just pointed out to me, one might be concerned about the
ability of the concrete base to support all that force and friction
at one small point. A second thick plate, under the nut, should take
care of that.

73,

--
Steve K8LX

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From w7ti@jps.net  Fri Jun  1 16:30:04 2001
From: w7ti@jps.net (Bill Turner W7TI)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 08:30:04 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Lexan
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20010601072328.00c7c5b0@mail.ricc.net>
References: <4.3.2.20010531102334.00c65920@mail.ricc.net> <20010531174054.87329.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> <4.3.2.20010601072328.00c7c5b0@mail.ricc.net>
Message-ID: <pocfhtsrqu0sidkk8uj5j0eghpppeteait@4ax.com>

On Fri, 01 Jun 2001 07:57:13 -0600, W0UN--Signal Hill Ranch wrote:

>Not sure why
>one respondent had problems with alcohol--maybe the sheet
>wasn't really Lexan or maybe this GE MR10 is somehow
>better or different.

_________________________________________________________

When you use alcohol, be sure it is pure isopropyl alcohol only - some cleaners
are blends of isopropyl and methyl and/or ethyl alcohol.  Both methyl and ethyl
alcohol will attack some plastics, but as far as I know, isopropyl alcohol is
completely benign.  I worked in electronics manufacturing for many years and we
never had any problems using pure isopropyl.

If you buy rubbing alcohol from a drugstore, read the label carefully.  Most of
what you'll find is a blend of 70% isopropyl with an unspecified "denaturant".
Look a bit more and you should be able find 99%+ isopropyl at a somewhat higher
cost.

73, Bill W7TI

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From n4kg@juno.com  Fri Jun  1 16:54:53 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:54:53 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete
Message-ID: <20010601.101326.-3206159.0.N4KG@juno.com>

On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 1<n3rr@erols.com> writes:
> What exactly do you mean?  A finger on his hand?  What's the context?

Yes, a finger of his hand went into the open internal space 
of the tower leg that was encased in concrete.
 
> What legs are you talking about?  What happened to the tower?

Yes, the TOWER Leg.  The tower rotated, shearing off all three legs
at the top  of the concrete pad.  The legs were then resting on the
concrete in a position not in line with the bottom portion of the 
bottom section, which was still encased in the concrete base.
He made a frame and poured more concrete around the portion
of the bottom section that was above ground.  The tower is still
standing.  I hope that paints a better picture.   Tom  N4KG

> 
> > a finger went down into a hole.  
> 
> > to SHEAR OFF all 3 legs!
> 
> 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Fri Jun  1 16:52:14 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:52:14 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Anybody try the F12 XR49 or XR51
Message-ID: <c0.1528ac36.2849142e@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/1/01 6:55:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mel@interlink.net 
writes:

> Well I'm finally replacing the beams I lost in the Ice storm of '98. I
>  have a 150' guyed tower with a HyGain HDR300A, and I'm wondering what to
>  put on top. That XR49 looks interesting! Anyone tried it? Perhaps a
>  better choice for me would be the XR51 (40M fan)... anyone care to
>  relate their experience these? I would like to hear any info regarding
>  their installation. They are bigger than anything I've tried to install
>  in the past.  

    These are BIG antennas. Until you've stood next to an assembled one, it's 
hard to imagine how big. 

    The HDR-300 may not be enough rotator. The Effective Moment of the 
antenna and the rotator are almost identical - about 5k ft/lbs - but the 
HDR-300 ain't that robust, especially in the splined output shaft, brake, 
etc. 

>  Another possibility would be a more modest HyGain TH11
>  with a 2 el 40. Any suggestions for a reasonable antenna to stack with
>  the TH11? 

    You mean besides another TH11? That would be my approach. Or a stack of 
C31XR's, etc. Much more reasonable set-up and you can use a T2X to turn them 
as well as your HDR-300..

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From hwardsil@wolfenet.com  Fri Jun  1 17:01:29 2001
From: hwardsil@wolfenet.com (Ward Silver)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 17:01:29 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Calling KW8N and N6KT
Message-ID: <00ba01c0eab4$1f95d5a0$c9129fce@ward>

Anybody have email addresses for either of these guys?

73, Ward N0AX


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From mel@interlink.net  Fri Jun  1 18:25:20 2001
From: mel@interlink.net (Mel Martin)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:25:20 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Anybody try the F12 XR49 or XR51
References: <32.15cbf466.28491712@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B17D000.452F2D6B@interlink.net>

That's what I meant... 

KI7WX@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I think he might have meant which shorty 40M beam to stack with the tribander.  
> Mark
> KI7WX

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From kr7x@gte.net  Fri Jun  1 18:57:28 2001
From: kr7x@gte.net (Hank Lonberg)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 10:57:28 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete- Definition time
Message-ID: <3B17D788.F5DAE09C@gte.net>

All:

I promise that this is it for me on this thread. I would like to thank
all that provided input concerning my post. You made me revisit my
resources and undergraduate references to form a reply that I hope
clears up the confusion concerning pinned vs fixed connections.

You must remember that the engineering models used by structural
engineers to define real world structures and their behavior under loads
is based on some basic assumptions concerning the members and how they
are connected to each other.

>From Laursen, Harold I., Structural Analysis, McGraw-Hill, 1969 New 
York, p.20

	a pinned connection is one where no moment is transferred from 	one
member to another.

What this says that for a connection to be fixed there has to be a
positive transfer of the moment from one to the other through the
connection. In reality a couple comprised of opposite forces separated
by a distance forms to react against the moment force. 

In the case of the embedded tower section the legs are positively
connected and continuous into the base foundation. A force downward in
one or two of the legs plus the force upwards in the other form a couple 
, forces in opposite directions separated by a distance, to transfer the
moment into the foundation. This meets the defination of a fixed
connection and has the ability to resist moment.

The flat plate, not tapered base pin, pier pin shown in Rohn catalogs
does not allow the transfer of moment into the foundation by the
formation of a "couple." This connection to the foundation concrete can
pass axial force from the compression load of the tower as a column, can
pass shear load due to the pin,  the plate is positively connected to
the foundation  for loads in the horizontal direction. It is not
connected to the foundation in such a way as to form a moment resisting
couple of forces... my friends it is by all structural modeling and
analysis viewpoints considered a  pinned connection.

The concept of the torsion resistance of the plate due to friction of
the plate on concrete is valid up to a point. The static coeficient of
friction of steel to concrete is 0.4, Us=0.4.

The plate resistance to movement laterally, either sliding or rotating
is: F=Us x P. It is a direct function of the tower axial load on the
base plate. Based on 7000 lbs axial load in the tower, not uncommon a
70-90 foot 45g tower in 90 mph wind, there would be 7000 X.4 = 2800 lbs
of resistance to sliding, but the pier pin is there for that. The
torsional resistance is a little more complex to calculate but it is
approximately in the range of, with calculating, about 2000 ft lbs plus
or minus. This is a force times a distance so it can be considered
partially fixed or a spring. However it is not linear if the torque on
the tower exceeds the 2000 ft-lbs then all of a sudden there is no
torsional resistance and the tower base rotates also it is a function of
the downward load. As you can see this is not a simple concept, best to
minimize the torsion through the use of guys and not the tower or base.
The use of a UHMW plastic plate at the steel concrete interface is
something to consider to act as a low friction washer might be a good
idea if one really wants to allow for positive rotation of the base.

Enough of this, as you can see a pin is a pin and a fixed base is a
fixed base as all can plainly see.............

Ciao

Hank / KR7X

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From n2mg@contesting.com  Fri Jun  1 20:26:16 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 1 Jun 2001 12:26:16 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete
Message-ID: <20010601192616.8980.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>

K3KO wrote:

<< First, they use a flat bottom plate on the concrete.  I doubt that these rotate at all to relieve the moment at the bottom.>>

Kurt's webpage says:

"The wide footprint on the pier may allow the tower to rotate about the vertical axis, but resists the ability to lean over without developing significant bending loads"

Common sense (admittedly not always valid) says the flat-plate, common, pier-pin base WILL rotate if the tower is rotating.  What a flat plate does NOT do (that the tapered type does) is allow the tower to lean.

      Buried base:  Leans? No.  Rotates? No.
   Flat pier base:  Leans? No.  Rotates? Yes.
Tapered pier base:  Leans? Yes. Rotates? Yes.

<< Second, I see no reference to the complicated rebar cage that one has to put in the hole to make up for the missing tower section.  >>

This is immaterial.  If you feel tower sections are good enough, why not just use another tower section as "rebar" for the pir-pin design?  Hell, the "rebar" section could tolerate being really hosed up in a pier-pin application - in a buried base, at least the last few inches/feet need to be straight.

The main drawback (and it's not unimportant) to any pier-pin design is the need for temporary guys.  But even the flat plate design alleviates the twisting of the very bottom sections' legs.  Also, with a pier-pin design, the drain holes are above grade, no condensation/drainage problems.  My ground is wet clay and I believe (maybe I'm wrong) that the oft-mentioned "buried base sitting on gravel for drainage" would, in my case, simply result in the buried sections' legs staying full of water.  (I currently have 8 holes dug for 2 towers and they are totally full of water).

73 Mike N2MG

________________________________________________
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From n2mg@contesting.com  Fri Jun  1 20:33:56 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 1 Jun 2001 12:33:56 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy rod stress
Message-ID: <20010601193356.9272.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>

Part of a recent thread referred to wanting the ability to change a guyed tower's height at some date after initial construction.  While a noble goal to plan ahead, I wonder what kind of added stress occurs in the guy rod if at rest it is not pointing to the approximate center of the tower?  Is it something to worry about?

73 Mike N2MG

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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Fri Jun  1 21:13:32 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 20:13:32 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete- Definition time
References: <3B17D788.F5DAE09C@gte.net>
Message-ID: <3B17F76C.EBDF9BF9@gloryroad.net>

How does the presence of a 1/2 to 1" thick coating of ice on the tower
base and plate affect the ability of the plate to rotate?

It seems that kind of condition is exactly when the added safety
factor is needed.  

It isn't a rare event in some parts of the country.

73 de Brian/K3KO

Hank Lonberg wrote:
> 
> All:
> 
> I promise that this is it for me on this thread. I would like to thank
> all that provided input concerning my post. You made me revisit my
> resources and undergraduate references to form a reply that I hope
> clears up the confusion concerning pinned vs fixed connections.
> 
> You must remember that the engineering models used by structural
> engineers to define real world structures and their behavior under loads
> is based on some basic assumptions concerning the members and how they
> are connected to each other.
> 
> >From Laursen, Harold I., Structural Analysis, McGraw-Hill, 1969 New
> York, p.20
> 
>         a pinned connection is one where no moment is transferred from  one
> member to another.
> 
> What this says that for a connection to be fixed there has to be a
> positive transfer of the moment from one to the other through the
> connection. In reality a couple comprised of opposite forces separated
> by a distance forms to react against the moment force.
> 
> In the case of the embedded tower section the legs are positively
> connected and continuous into the base foundation. A force downward in
> one or two of the legs plus the force upwards in the other form a couple
> , forces in opposite directions separated by a distance, to transfer the
> moment into the foundation. This meets the defination of a fixed
> connection and has the ability to resist moment.
> 
> The flat plate, not tapered base pin, pier pin shown in Rohn catalogs
> does not allow the transfer of moment into the foundation by the
> formation of a "couple." This connection to the foundation concrete can
> pass axial force from the compression load of the tower as a column, can
> pass shear load due to the pin,  the plate is positively connected to
> the foundation  for loads in the horizontal direction. It is not
> connected to the foundation in such a way as to form a moment resisting
> couple of forces... my friends it is by all structural modeling and
> analysis viewpoints considered a  pinned connection.
> 
> The concept of the torsion resistance of the plate due to friction of
> the plate on concrete is valid up to a point. The static coeficient of
> friction of steel to concrete is 0.4, Us=0.4.
> 
> The plate resistance to movement laterally, either sliding or rotating
> is: F=Us x P. It is a direct function of the tower axial load on the
> base plate. Based on 7000 lbs axial load in the tower, not uncommon a
> 70-90 foot 45g tower in 90 mph wind, there would be 7000 X.4 = 2800 lbs
> of resistance to sliding, but the pier pin is there for that. The
> torsional resistance is a little more complex to calculate but it is
> approximately in the range of, with calculating, about 2000 ft lbs plus
> or minus. This is a force times a distance so it can be considered
> partially fixed or a spring. However it is not linear if the torque on
> the tower exceeds the 2000 ft-lbs then all of a sudden there is no
> torsional resistance and the tower base rotates also it is a function of
> the downward load. As you can see this is not a simple concept, best to
> minimize the torsion through the use of guys and not the tower or base.
> The use of a UHMW plastic plate at the steel concrete interface is
> something to consider to act as a low friction washer might be a good
> idea if one really wants to allow for positive rotation of the base.
> 
> Enough of this, as you can see a pin is a pin and a fixed base is a
> fixed base as all can plainly see.............
> 
> Ciao
> 
> Hank / KR7X
> 
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> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
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From K7NV@contesting.com  Fri Jun  1 21:21:54 2001
From: K7NV@contesting.com (Kurt Andress)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:21:54 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete
References: <20010601192616.8980.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <3B17F962.EA93263C@contesting.com>

Mike Gilmer - N2MG wrote:
> 
> K3KO wrote:
> 
> << First, they use a flat bottom plate on the concrete.  I doubt that these rotate at all to relieve the moment at the bottom.>>
> 
> Kurt's webpage says:
> 
> "The wide footprint on the pier may allow the tower to rotate about the vertical axis, but resists the ability to lean over without developing significant bending loads"
> 
> Common sense (admittedly not always valid) says the flat-plate, common, pier-pin base WILL rotate if the tower is rotating.  What a flat plate does NOT do (that the tapered type does) is allow the tower to lean.
> 
>       Buried base:  Leans? No.  Rotates? No.
>    Flat pier base:  Leans? No.  Rotates? Yes.
> Tapered pier base:  Leans? Yes. Rotates? Yes.
> 

As Hank pointed out, both bases are pinned in a strict sense. 
The moment I was referring to is not developed by any fixivity to the
footing, but by not having all three legs sharing the axial load. If one or
two legs are carrying significantly more load than the other one or two,
then a moment is developed by the offset of the varying loads on the legs
from the section centroid. 
The concern I would have is the failure of a leg carrying more that its
share of the load, instead of what the moment is doing in the whole
section. I think I did this to a detailed tower section model once and saw
the problem, that was a few years ago, so I'd have to go find it again.

A thick base plate that is stiff enough keep the legs sharing the load
would eliminate the problem. K8LX asked about it. It seems to have been
figured out for the base plates on the rotating towers, but they have a
single centralized contact location with what is below. I'd start there.

I think the tapered base is better when the tower deflects, and is not
unlike what we do to get rid of the same problem at the base of a yacht
mast, most have a rocker plate to allow misalignment and keep the loads in
the section stable.


-- 
73, Kurt

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From k4rv@mindspring.com  Fri Jun  1 21:26:24 2001
From: k4rv@mindspring.com (Sain'T Tom)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:26:24 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] wayward rotor
Message-ID: <000701c0ead9$302e08e0$8f5ffc9e@0019536339>

When the bar is pressed for COUNTER-CLOCKWISE rotation,my Yaesu G1000-SDX
rotor takes off quickly in the clockwise direction for about 40 degrees
before it begins its COUNTER-CLOCKWISE movement.

When the bar is released from COUNTER-CLOCKWISE rotation, the rotor takes
off for 15 more COUNTER-CLOCKWISE degrees before it stops.

Does anyone know how to fix this problem?

When the bar is pressed or released for clockwise rotation, operation is
normal.


Thanks
Tom K4RV


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From kr7x@gte.net  Fri Jun  1 21:44:32 2001
From: kr7x@gte.net (Hank Lonberg)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:44:32 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete- Definition time
References: <3B17D788.F5DAE09C@gte.net> <3B17F76C.EBDF9BF9@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <3B17FEB0.A011938F@gte.net>

Brian:

Ice is very strong in compresson but has low tension shear strength. IF
your base is iced over and has enough torsion to cause it to move it
will move. I don't feel the ice would be a problem for torsional
rotation of the base.

Hank


alsopb wrote:
> 
> How does the presence of a 1/2 to 1" thick coating of ice on the tower
> base and plate affect the ability of the plate to rotate?
> 
> It seems that kind of condition is exactly when the added safety
> factor is needed.
> 
> It isn't a rare event in some parts of the country.
> 
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
> 
> Hank Lonberg wrote:
> >
> > All:
> >

> > The use of a UHMW plastic plate at the steel concrete interface is
> > something to consider to act as a low friction washer might be a good
> > idea if one really wants to allow for positive rotation of the base.
> >
> > Enough of this, as you can see a pin is a pin and a fixed base is a
> > fixed base as all can plainly see.............
> >
> > Ciao
> >
> > Hank / KR7X
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
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From bravo@iol.ie  Fri Jun  1 23:06:44 2001
From: bravo@iol.ie (John Tait)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:06:44 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Hex Beam
References: <000701c0e9f9$ee2aba40$13a60304@n9iww>
Message-ID: <005001c0eae7$276a5980$7594cbc1@johntait>


----- Original Message -----
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Hex Beam


> How would Figure the size of the Poles To use To Make A Hex Beam 2 El 75
> 80 m would work good and 40m  30m that way all bands could be covered
> easily
> I have 160 already in the works.


   Well ... If you look at each half of each element as an equilateral
triangle, with the poles running parallel to two sides of this triangle,
then for example, on 40m...
          234/7.1mHz  = 33ft = 1/4 w/l on 7mHz
         so, two sides of your triangle are 33/2 = 16 1/2ft each
           So, your poles should be 16 1/2ft each,  PLUS enough to get a
nice bend on the pole to tension the elements... I would guess poles about
18 or 19ft long should be OK for 40m..

            73
            John   EI7BA
>


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From W8JI@contesting.com  Sat Jun  2 00:45:41 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:45:41 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete
In-Reply-To: <fe9fhtkqieh60gfe7qdlvtpsegmguoe02j@4ax.com>
References: <00a401c0ea5b$e92c6c20$071a66a6@server>
Message-ID: <200106012347.f51Nlv426581@paris.akorn.net>

> IF the Rohn flat plate were strong enough, one could simply place a
> small spacer, like a large nut, around the pin & under the plate.
> 
> So the obvious solution would be to beef up the Rohn plate to an
> appropriate thickness. I would guess 3/4" would do it for normal
> ham installs. Kurt?

I mig weld  2"x1"x 3/16 thk square steel tubing from the outside 
edge of the plate under each leg (short side flat on the plate) to the 
center hole, with two pieces side by side under each leg.

I weld another single piece on the top of the plate from each leg to 
the center, with just enough space to let the legs fit and bolt into 
place.

At the normal pier hole, I weld the tubing to a stubby thick-wall pipe 
that sticks down 2".   

I do this so I can set the towers on a single insulator, but it 
probably would work if the insulator was replaced by a short piece 
of solid steel with a shoulder of some kind. 

I'm not a mechanical engineer, but this base system held my 300 
foot tower when I had an inch of radial ice on it and the guy lines.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From kc5ajx@hotmail.com  Sat Jun  2 01:46:33 2001
From: kc5ajx@hotmail.com (Rick Bullon)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 00:46:33 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Anybody try the F12 XR49 or XR51
Message-ID: <F106hsKd6QR7j1HaKtK000045ec@hotmail.com>


>
>> > Well I'm finally replacing the beams I lost in the Ice storm of '98. I
> >  have a 150' guyed tower with a HyGain HDR300A, and I'm wondering what 
>to
> >  put on top. That XR49 looks interesting! Anyone tried it? Perhaps a
> >  better choice for me would be the XR51 (40M fan)... anyone care to
> >  relate their experience these? I would like to hear any info regarding
> >  their installation. They are bigger than anything I've tried to install
> >  in the past.
>
>     These are BIG antennas. Until you've stood next to an assembled one, 
>it's
>hard to imagine how big.
>
>     The HDR-300 may not be enough rotator. The Effective Moment of the
>antenna and the rotator are almost identical - about 5k ft/lbs - but the
>HDR-300 ain't that robust, especially in the splined output shaft, brake,
>etc.
>
> >  Another possibility would be a more modest HyGain TH11
> >  with a 2 el 40. Any suggestions for a reasonable antenna to stack with
> >  the TH11?
>
>     You mean besides another TH11? That would be my approach. Or a stack 
>of
>C31XR's, etc. Much more reasonable set-up and you can use a T2X to turn 
>them
>as well as your HDR-300..
>
>Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
>Tower Tech
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve
I don't think another TH-11 will help him on 40 meters, unless he gamma 
matches the boom.
Now with a TH-11 at 150' and and another one at about 40' either fixed or 
side mounted and maybe 1 in the middle  now that would be a stack ( 
substitute your favorite tribander in the above example except for the 
Mosley dummy load antennas). A good 2el 40meter beam about 12 to 15 ft above 
the top tribander would round out the tower. Of course he could go with the 
bigger F-12 tribanders if he has the tower and rotor to handle it.
I need to state that the above suggestion is from what I have learned from 
this list. I have not tried any of this yet!
My tower and beams are still on the ground, I have 70' of R25 (base embed in 
concrete) 2 TH6 DXX beams to go at about 71 and 36 ft feed via StackMatch & 
TX2 rotor. Going to shunt feed the tower for 160 and use Phillystrand for 
guys all this is already on site still need to get coax and rotor cable. I 
will put up a 4 square for 80 ( 4 slopers don't have enough tower for the 
bent arrays ). I have made a deal on a f-12 40 meter beam just have to get 
with the guy and pay him for it and pick it up, it will go on top of a 20' 
2" diameter mast wit .025" wall thickness.
So what I have suggested above is what I am planning to do here just on a 
smaller scale :)
73
Rick
KC5AJX

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From 74237.2073@compuserve.com  Sat Jun  2 01:49:05 2001
From: 74237.2073@compuserve.com (James W. Fisher, Jr.)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 20:49:05 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Anybody try the F12 XR49 or XR51
Message-ID: <200106012049_MC3-D406-2198@compuserve.com>

My two C51XRs work great (individually and stacked with the C31XR-H in the
middle) but they certainly are big.  If you decide to get one I'd be happy
to talk prior to your installation.

73,

Jim, VE1JF

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From w5kp@swbell.net  Sat Jun  2 01:52:45 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (Jerry W5KP)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 19:52:45 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy rod stress
References: <20010601193356.9272.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <004001c0eafe$56e7d2c0$4f0ab8d1@w5kpnotebook>

A fair question, and I did mull that over a bit, but the rods are 7' long
5/8" mild steel, will have about 3' sticking out of the ground, and with a
30' increase, the center is only raised about 9 feet. That didn't seem to be
enough to worry about. Maybe I should set them to aim 5' high to start with
and split the difference.
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Gilmer - N2MG" <n2mg@contesting.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 2:33 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy rod stress


> Part of a recent thread referred to wanting the ability to change a guyed
tower's height at some date after initial construction.  While a noble goal
to plan ahead, I wonder what kind of added stress occurs in the guy rod if
at rest it is not pointing to the approximate center of the tower?  Is it
something to worry about?
>
> 73 Mike N2MG
>
> ________________________________________________
> PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart.
> http://www.peoplepc.com
>
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> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>


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From Mel Martin" <ve2dc@rac.ca  Sat Jun  2 11:45:44 2001
From: Mel Martin" <ve2dc@rac.ca (Mel Martin)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 06:45:44 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Anybody try the F12 XR49 or XR51
Message-ID: <003a01c0eb51$320153c0$0a0101c0@kids650>

Well no-one replied who was using the C49... too new I guess... But a lot of
info and food for thought recieved... thanks all.  What I REALLY need is
another tower ;-)


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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Sat Jun  2 15:44:00 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 14:44:00 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] More ad hype
Message-ID: <3B18FBB0.210A656E@gloryroad.net>



"Having an antenna which will require you to bolt your transmitter to
the table less it be drawn up into the antenna along with the rest of
the RF should raise the signal at the receiving station by 6db. This
is exactly what the  SPYDERCONE ANTENNA will do! (1) Require your
transmitter to be bolted down and (2) provide an easy 6db gain on four
Amateur Bands, and all WARC bands and a minimum of
2.4db gain on 75 and 80 meter bands!! "

Do these guys have no conscience?

73 de Brian/K3KO


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From kq2m@mags.net  Sat Jun  2 18:17:43 2001
From: kq2m@mags.net (Robert Shohet)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 13:17:43 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] More ad hype
References: <3B18FBB0.210A656E@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <000701c0eb87$efcd5ee0$76b4f9d0@dchm7>

In my profession, this statement would be called a material
misrepresentation, and would most likely lead to fines, loss of licenses and
 possibly civil and criminal prosecution.

Maybe it is time for a similar standard among manufacturers and vendors?

73

Bob KQ2M


>
> "Having an antenna which will require you to bolt your transmitter to
> the table less it be drawn up into the antenna along with the rest of
> the RF should raise the signal at the receiving station by 6db. This
> is exactly what the  SPYDERCONE ANTENNA will do! (1) Require your
> transmitter to be bolted down and (2) provide an easy 6db gain on four
> Amateur Bands, and all WARC bands and a minimum of
> 2.4db gain on 75 and 80 meter bands!! "
>
> Do these guys have no conscience?
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>
>
>


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From n9rla@yahoo.com  Sat Jun  2 20:56:44 2001
From: n9rla@yahoo.com (Dan Evans)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 12:56:44 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] More ad hype
References: <3B18FBB0.210A656E@gloryroad.net> <000701c0eb87$efcd5ee0$76b4f9d0@dchm7>
Message-ID: <003301c0eb9e$281e2c00$0101a8c0@scottsburg.com>

db-dl?

db over a dummy load.

Dan

Dan Evans N9RLA
444 Lynhurst St.
Scottsburg, IN 47170
{EM78}
1/2 of the N9RLA /R no budget Rover Team
Check out the Rover Resource Page at:
http://www.qsl.net/n9rla
InHam list administrator
QRP-l #1269

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Shohet" <kq2m@mags.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] More ad hype


> In my profession, this statement would be called a material
> misrepresentation, and would most likely lead to fines, loss of licenses
and
>  possibly civil and criminal prosecution.
>
> Maybe it is time for a similar standard among manufacturers and vendors?
>
> 73
>
> Bob KQ2M
>
>
> >
> > "Having an antenna which will require you to bolt your transmitter to
> > the table less it be drawn up into the antenna along with the rest of
> > the RF should raise the signal at the receiving station by 6db. This
> > is exactly what the  SPYDERCONE ANTENNA will do! (1) Require your
> > transmitter to be bolted down and (2) provide an easy 6db gain on four
> > Amateur Bands, and all WARC bands and a minimum of
> > 2.4db gain on 75 and 80 meter bands!! "
> >
> > Do these guys have no conscience?
> >
> > 73 de Brian/K3KO
> >
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call
> us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
> to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
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> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
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> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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From n7tr@rnodx.org  Sat Jun  2 19:05:08 2001
From: n7tr@rnodx.org (Rich Hallman - N7TR)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 11:05:08 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Control Box Plug for G-800SDX?
Message-ID: <ED185C11E0E6D311984E00508B8FABB7090BBF@HOME-SERVER>

Any info on where to purchase the Rectangular Control Plug for the Yaesu
G-800SDX Control Box?  

Thanks...
Rich

************************
Rich Hallman - N7TR
Reno, Nevada
http://www.n7tr.com

N7TR DX-Cluster Access:
telnet://n7tr.qrq.com


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From K7NV@contesting.com  Sat Jun  2 19:50:44 2001
From: K7NV@contesting.com (Kurt Andress)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 11:50:44 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pier pin vs. burying in concrete
References: <3B169335.2984B1BD@gte.net> <3B169881.673C16BF@gloryroad.net> <00a401c0ea5b$e92c6c20$071a66a6@server> <fe9fhtkqieh60gfe7qdlvtpsegmguoe02j@4ax.com> <glcfht0apk7bljm4dcndoqafrql3eo52if@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3B193584.AF7B410E@contesting.com>

Steve Maki wrote:
> 
> Steve Maki <steve@oakcom.com> wrote:
> 
> >"Stan Stockton" <k5go@alltel.net> wrote:
> >
> >>On Kurt's website he makes the following observation referring to a tower
> >>that is mounted on a pier with the equivalent of a ball socket mount:
> >>
> >>"Putting the tower on a free base connection has allowed us to increase the
> >>antenna loads by 49%."
> >>
> >> I am interested in a practical means of achieving this type of free
> >>rotating base. Will be out of town for 8 days, but will be interested to see
> >>if someone has a good, practical way of achieving this.
> >
> >IF the Rohn flat plate were strong enough, one could simply place a
> >small spacer, like a large nut, around the pin & under the plate.
> >
> >So the obvious solution would be to beef up the Rohn plate to an
> >appropriate thickness. I would guess 3/4" would do it for normal
> >ham installs. Kurt?
> 
> As K3KO just pointed out to me, one might be concerned about the
> ability of the concrete base to support all that force and friction
> at one small point. A second thick plate, under the nut, should take
> care of that.
> 
> 73,
> 
> --
> Steve K8LX
> 

Hi Steve and All,

The larger towers in the Rohn commercial catalogue use only a tapered base
section and a bearing plate between the tower and footing that is machined
so it has a small diamaeter under the tower and a larger one against the
footing. There is an option to insulate the tower from the footing.

You can see the details in Dwg B700216 for Model "C" tower, Dwg B690343 for
the Model 80 tower, Dwg C730307 for the model 90 tower. 

-- 
73, Kurt, K7NV

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From k3hx@juno.com  Sun Jun  3 00:14:44 2001
From: k3hx@juno.com (tttt ccccc)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 19:14:44 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Advertising blather.
Message-ID: <20010602.191452.-400427.0.k3hx@juno.com>

Seems to me we are having our legs pulled, again.

I refuse to accept that the ranks of ham radio have been so degraded and
dumbed-

down that this kind of thing can be anything but a joke.

73

Tim  K3HX
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From aa0cy@VRINTER.NET  Sun Jun  3 01:19:05 2001
From: aa0cy@VRINTER.NET (Bob Wanderer)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:19:05 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Lightnng protection
In-Reply-To: <008501c0e861$aba28340$787f6395@carl>
Message-ID: <LLBBLCFEALADIMAAOIJCAEDBFHAA.aa0cy@VRINTER.NET>

I might add that the price of the "Grounds" book is in the
$24 range.



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Carl A.
Smidt
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 1:06 PM
To: Bill Hider; Towertalk@Contesting. Com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Lightnng protection


Sorry, I should have included the full information. I
ordered it from the
Radio Bookstore & Radioware via Fax (603) 899-6826, after
exchanging e-mail:
radware@radio-ware.com. Their phone number is: (603)
899-6957 or 800-457
7373. The price is $19.95 plus S & H. I dealt with a Craig
Clark, W1JCC.
Their mailing address is: PO Box 209, 47 Fitzgerald Rd.,
Rindge, NH 03461.

73,   Carl   VE9OV
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Hider" <n3rr@erols.com>
To: "Carl A. Smidt" <smidtca@sprint.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Lightnng protection


> Carl,
>
> How did you order it? Telephone? Number? or Internet?
> How much was it?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill, N3RR
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Carl A. Smidt <smidtca@sprint.ca>
> To: Bob Wanderer <aa0cy@VRINTER.NET>; TOWERTALK
<TOWERTALK@contesting.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 5:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Lightnng protection
>
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I received the manual today from the NH Radio Bookstore.
It is now
called
> > 'Lightning Protection and Grounding Solutions for
Communication Sites'.
It
> > is a First Edition by Ken R. Rand, first printing 2000.
It says in the
> > introduction that it was compiled from the original book
'The "Grounds"
> for
> > Lightning and EMP Protection by Roger R. Block, plus
additional articles
> > written by Roger and Ken Rand over the last several
years. It states
that
> > Ken Rand has brought in some up-to-date information
during the re-write
> and
> > some text has been revised and re-ordered for logical
sequence and
> clarity.
> > It has 90 pages. So from that I assume that it is in
fact the
"Grounding"
> > bible that everyone normally refers to by its original
name and there
does
> > not appear to be a Third Edition of the original title
unless I have
been
> > led astray by the Radio Bookstore.
> >
> > 73,   Carl   VE9OV
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bob Wanderer" <aa0cy@VRINTER.NET>
> > To: "TOWERTALK" <TOWERTALK@contesting.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 22:03 PM
> > Subject: FW: [TowerTalk] Lightnng protection
> >
> >
> > > I don't know it offhand.  I got a snail mail letter
some
> > > months ago announcing that they carried the 3d
edition.  I
> > > think they're in Peterborough and (I think) used to be
> > > allied with or part of 73 Magazine.
> > >
> > > Can anybody on the list help Carl?
> > >
> > > If not, contact PolyPhaser at www.polyphaser.com and
I'm
> > > sure they have plenty of the 3d edition.  I know the
author,
> > > Ken Rand, very well as I used to work for him!
> > >
> > > 73
> > > Bob AA0CY
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Carl A. Smidt [mailto:smidtca@sprint.ca]
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 9:30 AM
> > > To: Bob Wanderer
> > > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Lightnng protection
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello Bob,
> > >
> > > Would you kindly point me to the site of the Radio
Bookstore
> > > in NH. I would
> > > like to order the book, but can't find it using the
search
> > > engines that I
> > > have employed. Thank you for your help.
> > >
> > > 73,   Carl   VE9OV
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bob Wanderer" <aa0cy@VRINTER.NET>
> > > To: "Eugene Jensen" <eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>;
> > > <towertalk@contesting.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 22:21 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Lightnng protection
> > >
> > >
> > > > There is now a THIRD edition and this is the one you
want.
> > > > It was revised and updated by Ken Rand and it is far
> > > easier
> > > > to follow than the original two editions which were
done
> > > by
> > > > Roger Block.
> > > >
> > > > The Radio Bookstore in NH carries it.
> > > >
> > > > 73
> > > > Bob AA0CY
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > > > [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of
Eugene
> > > > Jensen
> > > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 6:37 PM
> > > > To: towertalk@contesting.com
> > > > Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Lightnng protection
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > THE "GROUNDS" FOR LIGHTNING & EMP PROTECTION, SECOND
> > > EDITION
> > > > and is well
> > > > worth the cost.  It well bring you up to speed very
> > > quickly.
> > > > You can get
> > > > from the list Sponsor and I'm sure if you call him
he
> > > bring
> > > > a copy to
> > > > Dayton. Sure taught me what I was doing wrong with a
> > > secord
> > > > story Ham
> > > > Station. After I finished reading the book on a trip
to
> > > > England, I quickly
> > > > grounded all my coaxial cables at the base of my
tower.
> > > > Lightening is a
> > > > pretty complicated subject but the book really puts
it
> > > into
> > > > perspective and
> > > > sure kills a lot of my misconceptions of what I
believed.
> > > > 73's Gene K2QWD
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > > > [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of
Jim
> > > > Idelson
> > > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 4:17 PM
> > > > To: TowerTalk Post
> > > > Subject: [TowerTalk] Lightnng protection
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > What's the best resource around for practical
solutions to
> > > > lightning
> > > > protection
> > > > of contest stations [lots of feedlines and control
> > > cables]?
> > > > I plan to buy a
> > > > bunch of parts for this critical project in Dayton,
and
> > > need
> > > > to find the
> > > > "firehose" that will blast me instantly with all the
> > > > knowlege I need.
> > > >
> > > > Tnx es 73!
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > > List Sponsor:  Champion Radio Products - We'll be at
the
> > > > Dayton Hamvention
> > > > with all of our safety equipment and other products.
Stop
> > > by
> > > > booth #559 and
> > > > say hi.
> > > > <A
> > > >
> > >
HREF="http://www.championradio.com">www.ChampionRadio.com</A
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----
> > > > FAQ on WWW:
> > > > http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > > > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > > > Administrative requests:
towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > > > Problems:
owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > List Sponsor:  Champion Radio Products - We'll be at
the
> > > > Dayton Hamvention
> > > > with all of our safety equipment and other products.
Stop
> > > by
> > > > booth #559 and
> > > > say hi.
> > > > <A
> > > >
> > >
HREF="http://www.championradio.com">www.ChampionRadio.com</A
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----
> > > > FAQ on WWW:
> > > > http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > > > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > > > Administrative requests:
towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > > > Problems:
owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > List Sponsor:  Champion Radio Products - We'll be at
the
> > > Dayton Hamvention
> > > > with all of our safety equipment and other products.
Stop
> > > by booth #559
> > > and
> > > > say hi.
> > > > <A
> > >
HREF="http://www.championradio.com">www.ChampionRadio.com</A
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----
> > > > FAQ on WWW:
> > > http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > > > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > > > Administrative requests:
towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > > > Problems:
owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > List Sponsor:  Champion Radio Products - We'll be at
the Dayton
> Hamvention
> > > with all of our safety equipment and other products.
Stop by booth
#559
> > and
> > > say hi.
> > > <A
HREF="http://www.championradio.com">www.ChampionRadio.com</A
>
> > >
> > > -----
> > > FAQ on WWW:
http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > > Administrative requests:
towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > > Problems:
owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower
this summer?
Call
> us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan
self-supporting towers - up
> to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:
http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:
towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
>



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From aa0cy@VRINTER.NET  Sun Jun  3 01:18:55 2001
From: aa0cy@VRINTER.NET (Bob Wanderer)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:18:55 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Lightnng protection
In-Reply-To: <003701c0e85c$bce47d20$787f6395@carl>
Message-ID: <LLBBLCFEALADIMAAOIJCOEDAFHAA.aa0cy@VRINTER.NET>

I do not have anything further than the second ed (the last
by Roger Block).  It was my understanding that there was a
third ed of the "Grounds" book.  Roger and Ken did co-author
shorter tomes addressed specifically to hams (known by
us'ems at Poly as The Ham(fest) Bulletin") and another for
commercial users.  The title of the latter book was, if
memory serves, the same as what is shown below.

What does the PolyPhaser web site say?

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Carl A.
Smidt
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:01 PM
To: Bob Wanderer; TOWERTALK
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Lightnng protection


Hi All,

I received the manual today from the NH Radio Bookstore. It
is now called
'Lightning Protection and Grounding Solutions for
Communication Sites'. It
is a First Edition by Ken R. Rand, first printing 2000. It
says in the
introduction that it was compiled from the original book
'The "Grounds" for
Lightning and EMP Protection by Roger R. Block, plus
additional articles
written by Roger and Ken Rand over the last several years.
It states that
Ken Rand has brought in some up-to-date information during
the re-write and
some text has been revised and re-ordered for logical
sequence and clarity.
It has 90 pages. So from that I assume that it is in fact
the "Grounding"
bible that everyone normally refers to by its original name
and there does
not appear to be a Third Edition of the original title
unless I have been
led astray by the Radio Bookstore.

73,   Carl   VE9OV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Wanderer" <aa0cy@VRINTER.NET>
To: "TOWERTALK" <TOWERTALK@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 22:03 PM
Subject: FW: [TowerTalk] Lightnng protection


> I don't know it offhand.  I got a snail mail letter some
> months ago announcing that they carried the 3d edition.  I
> think they're in Peterborough and (I think) used to be
> allied with or part of 73 Magazine.
>
> Can anybody on the list help Carl?
>
> If not, contact PolyPhaser at www.polyphaser.com and I'm
> sure they have plenty of the 3d edition.  I know the
author,
> Ken Rand, very well as I used to work for him!
>
> 73
> Bob AA0CY
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl A. Smidt [mailto:smidtca@sprint.ca]
> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 9:30 AM
> To: Bob Wanderer
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Lightnng protection
>
>
> Hello Bob,
>
> Would you kindly point me to the site of the Radio
Bookstore
> in NH. I would
> like to order the book, but can't find it using the search
> engines that I
> have employed. Thank you for your help.
>
> 73,   Carl   VE9OV
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Wanderer" <aa0cy@VRINTER.NET>
> To: "Eugene Jensen" <eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>;
> <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 22:21 PM
> Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Lightnng protection
>
>
> > There is now a THIRD edition and this is the one you
want.
> > It was revised and updated by Ken Rand and it is far
> easier
> > to follow than the original two editions which were done
> by
> > Roger Block.
> >
> > The Radio Bookstore in NH carries it.
> >
> > 73
> > Bob AA0CY
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of
Eugene
> > Jensen
> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 6:37 PM
> > To: towertalk@contesting.com
> > Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Lightnng protection
> >
> >
> > THE "GROUNDS" FOR LIGHTNING & EMP PROTECTION, SECOND
> EDITION
> > and is well
> > worth the cost.  It well bring you up to speed very
> quickly.
> > You can get
> > from the list Sponsor and I'm sure if you call him he
> bring
> > a copy to
> > Dayton. Sure taught me what I was doing wrong with a
> secord
> > story Ham
> > Station. After I finished reading the book on a trip to
> > England, I quickly
> > grounded all my coaxial cables at the base of my tower.
> > Lightening is a
> > pretty complicated subject but the book really puts it
> into
> > perspective and
> > sure kills a lot of my misconceptions of what I
believed.
> > 73's Gene K2QWD
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Jim
> > Idelson
> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 4:17 PM
> > To: TowerTalk Post
> > Subject: [TowerTalk] Lightnng protection
> >
> >
> > What's the best resource around for practical solutions
to
> > lightning
> > protection
> > of contest stations [lots of feedlines and control
> cables]?
> > I plan to buy a
> > bunch of parts for this critical project in Dayton, and
> need
> > to find the
> > "firehose" that will blast me instantly with all the
> > knowlege I need.
> >
> > Tnx es 73!
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > List Sponsor:  Champion Radio Products - We'll be at the
> > Dayton Hamvention
> > with all of our safety equipment and other products.
Stop
> by
> > booth #559 and
> > say hi.
> > <A
> >
>
HREF="http://www.championradio.com">www.ChampionRadio.com</A
> > >
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:
> > http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:
towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
> >
> >
> > List Sponsor:  Champion Radio Products - We'll be at the
> > Dayton Hamvention
> > with all of our safety equipment and other products.
Stop
> by
> > booth #559 and
> > say hi.
> > <A
> >
>
HREF="http://www.championradio.com">www.ChampionRadio.com</A
> > >
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:
> > http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:
towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
> >
> >
> > List Sponsor:  Champion Radio Products - We'll be at the
> Dayton Hamvention
> > with all of our safety equipment and other products.
Stop
> by booth #559
> and
> > say hi.
> > <A
>
HREF="http://www.championradio.com">www.ChampionRadio.com</A
> >
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:
> http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:
towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
>
>
>
>
> List Sponsor:  Champion Radio Products - We'll be at the
Dayton Hamvention
> with all of our safety equipment and other products. Stop
by booth #559
and
> say hi.
> <A
HREF="http://www.championradio.com">www.ChampionRadio.com</A
>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:
http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>



List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this
summer? Call us
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towers - up to
96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
www.ChampionRadio.com</A>

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From w5kp@swbell.net  Sun Jun  3 18:46:57 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (Jerry W5KP)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 12:46:57 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
Message-ID: <00d101c0ec55$302cedc0$fc22c1cf@w5kpnotebook>

Latest in my series of questions, which you guys have been extremely helpful
in answering:

Is there any reason to go to the trouble of putting a "stub" of guy wire at
the top with an insulator on it, and then proceeding to break up the
remainder of the guy, or is that a waste of insulators, preforms, and time?
I seem to recall if one end of the guy is grounded (attached to the tower)
then you can go down the full 14' or 27' or whatever breakup distance you've
chosen before you put in the first insulator. Would be interested in hearing
sage advice/experiences on this subject. Also, and as an alternative, it
seems a shame to break up a perfectly good antenna (the guy wires). Wonder
if there's a way to utilize the guys as a built-in 75M inverted V without
ruining the tribander's pattern, or the future 40M beam pattern? My C3XLD
will be up at about 86' (about 12'-13' above the top of the 45G, which will
be 74' at the flat top), with plans to later add a 2el 40 just above the
thrust bearing. Any trick antennas using the guy wires would end up VERY
close to the 40M beam.

Tks,
Jerry W5KP


List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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From n3rr@erols.com  Sun Jun  3 18:10:17 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 18:10:17 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
References: <00d101c0ec55$302cedc0$fc22c1cf@w5kpnotebook>
Message-ID: <000d01c0ec50$114ef560$b0032c42@billspiii>

Jerry,

Take a look at the tradeoff analysis I have on my Website,
specifically, the break-up insulator, Phillistran, and fiberglass rod
implementations.
I chose the fiberglass rod implementation in part so I could add wire
antennas without
worrying about the interference problems.  www.erols.com/n3rr  Click on
"Guying
Subsystem" in the System Design table.

Also, see the ARRL Handbook for the lengths into which you need to breakup
the guy wires
depending on which bands you intend to use on that tower.  This will answer
one of your questions.

Bill, N3RR


----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry W5KP <w5kp@swbell.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 6:46 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance


> Latest in my series of questions, which you guys have been extremely
helpful
> in answering:
>
> Is there any reason to go to the trouble of putting a "stub" of guy wire
at
> the top with an insulator on it, and then proceeding to break up the
> remainder of the guy, or is that a waste of insulators, preforms, and
time?
> I seem to recall if one end of the guy is grounded (attached to the tower)
> then you can go down the full 14' or 27' or whatever breakup distance
you've
> chosen before you put in the first insulator. Would be interested in
hearing
> sage advice/experiences on this subject. Also, and as an alternative, it
> seems a shame to break up a perfectly good antenna (the guy wires). Wonder
> if there's a way to utilize the guys as a built-in 75M inverted V without
> ruining the tribander's pattern, or the future 40M beam pattern? My C3XLD
> will be up at about 86' (about 12'-13' above the top of the 45G, which
will
> be 74' at the flat top), with plans to later add a 2el 40 just above the
> thrust bearing. Any trick antennas using the guy wires would end up VERY
> close to the 40M beam.
>
> Tks,
> Jerry W5KP
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>


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From w7ti@jps.net  Mon Jun  4 03:45:37 2001
From: w7ti@jps.net (Bill Turner W7TI)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 19:45:37 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] More ad hype
In-Reply-To: <3B18FBB0.210A656E@gloryroad.net>
References: <3B18FBB0.210A656E@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <obslht08j17f1qu9l0kdkmcpdpe4aa4jds@4ax.com>

On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 14:44:00 +0000, alsopb wrote:

>"Having an antenna which will require you to bolt your transmitter to
>the table less it be drawn up into the antenna along with the rest of
>the RF should raise the signal at the receiving station by 6db. This
>is exactly what the  SPYDERCONE ANTENNA will do! 

_________________________________________________________

Would ordinary steel bolts do, or should they be specially hardened ones?  How
about stainless steel for people living near the coast?  Or maybe you don't need
bolts at all - just mix up a big gob of epoxy and set your transmitter down on
it!!  

For portable operations, you can set a couple of cement blocks on top of the
transmitter, or for QRP, one ordinary brick should do just fine.

It was announced at Dayton that Kenwood/Icom/Yaesu are bringing out new rigs
with one large, centrally located bolt hole which goes all the way through from
top to bottom, a system they call "Single Security Bolt", or "SSB".  Critics
with too much time on their hands point out that most rigs already have SSB, but
pay them no attention.  We REAL hams know progress when we see it!

By the way - don't attempt to add SSB to your existing equipment.  I've tried it
on all my rigs here and the results were somewhat unsatisfactory, perhaps due to
the 3/4" drill bit I used.  While "antenna sucking" is no longer a problem at my
QTH, transmitting and receiving seem to be much less effective than before.  
And I'm running out of fuses, too.

:-)

73, Bill W7TI

List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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From bjk@ihug.co.nz  Mon Jun  4 05:54:40 2001
From: bjk@ihug.co.nz (Barry Kirkwood)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:54:40 +1200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy wires
Message-ID: <003401c0ecb2$77187800$63d1adcb@ihug.co.nz>

I put strops of EHS wire covered with garden hose around the tower legs.
There is an eye in a lineman's or P&T splice at each end of the strop. The
two ends of the strop and the eye at the top end of the guy are all secured
with a shackle. There is an insulator a short distance down the guy.
The idea of this is to provide some radiusand cushioning where the wire
passes around the tower leg. This also isolates the guy from the tower
should one want to use the tower as a vertical.
I place insulators at 13 ft lengths at the top of the guys to hopefully
avoid pattern distortion to the beam on top, longer lengths lower down.
I think it is good practice to put an insulator immediately above the lower
termination of each guy to discourage lightning fusing the turnbuckles or
whatever, but people in lightning prone areas may have better advice.
I use large plastic egg insulators made for electric fences which are light,
cheap and seem adequatley strong.
Not that the above is for a relatively modest tower up to say 100ft or so
without too much on top.
Mine is a 50ft tower on a ridge above the coast where it can get quite windy
but is not a hurricane or cyclone zone.

73

end
Barry Kirkwood PhD ZL1DD
Signal Hill Homestay
66 Cory Road
Palm Beach
Waiheke Island 1240
NEW ZEALAND
www.waiheke.co.nz/signal.htm



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From n6nz@n6nz.net  Mon Jun  4 04:23:28 2001
From: n6nz@n6nz.net (Dave N6NZ)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 20:23:28 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TowerTalk] anchoring concrete base to rock
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010603202248.00946ee0@ns.dave-curtis.com>

meant to copy the reflector on this.  -n6nz

>Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 23:51:57 -0700
>To: "LA7SL" <la7sl@online.no>
>From: Dave N6NZ <n6nz@n6nz.net>
>Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] anchoring concrete base to rock
>
>I have similar "soil" (if you can call it that) at my new QTH.   I have 24 
>to 36 inches
>of cover over granite. My comments below are based on my research into the 
>issue,
>not on actual experience (I haven't poured concrete yet).
>
>Rebar should be covered by concrete.  Exposure to moisture will cause it to
>rust and deteriorate.  You should assume moisture will seep along the
>concrete/rock boundary.
>
>The rock should be bored and the tieing elements cemented into the rock using
>"rock bolt cement" which is made for this purpose.  Then pour over the rock
>bolts and the rock bolts should not touch the rebar.
>
>In the end, in my location, I decided to blast in order to get deep enough 
>holes.
>There is a $750 minimum for blasting, but for that $750, you can fracture 
>a lot of
>granite well enough that an excavator can pull it out.  This, I learned, 
>while setting
>a septic tank.
>
>73, Dave N6NZ
>
>At 08:46 PM 5/27/01 +0200, you wrote:
>>Hi everybody !
>>I just subscribed to the list. Maybe this subject has been discussed 
>>before, but
>>looking through all the archives would ruin me as I am on dial-up !
>>
>>The problem :
>>
>>A self supported crank-up / tilt over is to be mounted in a location with 
>>only
>>4 feet of  loose soil covering solid rock. I have to use a concrete 
>>base,- but
>>have no chance to get it deep enough. I have to anchor the base to the rock
>>below. I have instructions on how to build the rebar "cage". The instruction
>>spesifically warns against letting the rebars get in touch with 
>>underlying soil.
>>Is this also valid for underlying rock ??
>>Do I have to use anchor bolts (terribly expensive here) and NOT let them 
>>touch
>>the rebar ?  It would be very practical to drill holes and extend the 
>>vertical rebars
>>down into the holes. How do I fix them there if this method is allowable??
>>Any compounds that are good for this and not cost a fortune ??
>>   I have both corrosion and lightning safety (base explosion) in mind 
>> when asking.
>>     Thanks in advance !
>>And VY 73 DE
>>LA7SL- Nils "Peter" Pedersen
>>la7sl@online.no
>>
>>
>>
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>>HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
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From hankarn@pacbell.net  Mon Jun  4 03:01:02 2001
From: hankarn@pacbell.net (Dan)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 19:01:02 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] REF: HAM RADIO PAREKING LOT SALE
Message-ID: <3B1AEBDE.B1CA5D5C@pacbell.net>

Guys & Gals, I have acquired tooo much equipment in all categories and
it is time to get rid of it locally before it goes on E you know where.
This will be located in the Parking lot in front of my units at 21315
Saticoy St. Units J, K, L, N, O, P, Q, and R my office. We will START
selling at 8:00 AM June 9th. All early birds that insist on buying prior
to 8:00 AM will pay 20% above the asking price. On most of the equipment
there will be very little haggle room. This is not a SWAP meet. What
does not sell goes you know where.

There will be Collins, Hallicrafters, Hammarlund, Lafeyette, WW II Jeep
radios, BC-659, BC-620, Tank radios, Complete WS-19 MK III with remote
and lot of accessories as a package, National, TCS, R39XX, R-39XX parts, 
Yaesu, Kenwood, TEK, HP, GR, scopes, sig gens, bridges, XFMRS, Var.
Caps, logic, IC's, resistors, connectors, grab bags, misc. test
equipment, power supplies, meters, books, manuals, antennas, misc.
hardware. Also have a 690 pound Russian R-155U receiver for sale at
$750.00 firm in 7 modules and a cabinet on casters. will not be at sale
but will furnish pictures of unit and viewing for serious buyers but no
lookie loos.

This is not a sale for dealers or resellers and for sure parasite
hoarders that only pay .00005 on the dollar. 

All sales AS-IS and CASH USD.
Most of this equipment is clean and operating and I have manuals for
most of the units.

A minor list: Several S-38's of all models, SX-28, HQ-129X, Super Pros.
SP-600, HFS, HQ-150, S-20R, S-22, S-24, S-36 with panadaptor, HXL-1,
HX-50A?, HX-500, Henry 2K4A, CE 200V needs a lot of TLC, CE 10, CE 20,
Home brew with PL-152, HQ-180, HQ-170, NC-300, NC-300 needs dial
restrung 5 hands required Hi, NC-57, Some SCR-274N stuff, Sunair GSL
system with 2 exciters, 2 receivers, AMP, Ps, antenna tuner, Mil cables.
relay control, mike and original manuals BO over $4,000.00, at my QTH
again no lookie loos, A Henry 8K ULTRA complete BO over $7,000.00, CPN-8
Radar beacon with antenna mast and like NIB BO over $300.00, HRO-60,
S-41 operating, # S-41 basket cases, 3 S-120's 1 grain, 2 chrome, Viking
I, Viking II, Valiant, Apache, 2 Mohawks, 4 Marauders 1 is parts unit. 7
pieces $700.00 OBRO, DB22A, Johnson KW matchbox $325.00 firm with
manual, Dentron Super tuner, Scott RCH $200.00 firm, Scott SLRM $200
needs caps clean, 75A-1 $400.00 firm works, EC-1 $40.00, Have 2 R-390
NON A complete need cleaning and tweaking plus caps but make noise with
power plugs top and bottom covers $550.00 firm, R-390-A have 4 complete
with original meters clean knobs, covers make noise need tweaking
$500.00, HP 8640B option 1 very clean and stable $600.00 firm, tubes,
tubes Oh I meant to say tubes.
Much more.

Any email/mail orders are to be paid by USPS MO or bank wire transfers.
Packing, shipping and insurance to the buyers account. Personal checks
accepted from know previous buyers only.

I will consider valid reasonable offers on other than firm prices, not
stupid and not for resellers. This is for users, if you do not like the
terms then bug out. Sorry.

To get to the parking lot, it is in the West San Fernando Valley off of
the 101 you can exit DeSoto or Canoga and go North about 3 miles to
Saticoy. on the 118 off on DeSoto or Topanga Canyon South to Saticoy
then left or right. For the locals we are behind the Former Sandy's
Electronics which sadly has gone by the wayside.

Thanks,
Hank
KN6DI

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From n2mg@contesting.com  Mon Jun  4 13:06:13 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 4 Jun 2001 05:06:13 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rebar
Message-ID: <20010604120613.3512.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>

I read here often that folks recommend that rebar be kept "inside" the concrete (and by several inches) - away from the nasty, wet soil in an effort to protect it from rust.

My situation (high water table; poor draining, clay soil) and the fact that concrete is somewhat porous will virtually guarantee my rebar will contact or be exposed to water frequently/always even while within the concrete.  Do I need to use the coated rebar stock (or roofing tar on standard rebar) on my installation?

Am I all wet? <g>

73 Mike N2MG

________________________________________________
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From K2plf3@aol.com  Mon Jun  4 18:21:38 2001
From: K2plf3@aol.com (K2plf3@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 13:21:38 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Need help pricing a Hy-gain HG-52SS Self Supporting 52 foot crank up tower
Message-ID: <96.152cdeba.284d1da2@aol.com>

I need your help in setting a fair price for a Hy-gain HG-52SS Self 
Supporting 52 foot 3 section crank up tower.  I understand they sell new for 
$2600.  This belonged to silent key W3SKK and I am helping his widow sell his 
ham gear.  The tower is 16 years old and is in very good condition.  It has 
been lowered to the ground and is ready to be picked up and moved.  I 
contacted Hy-gain and a new base section costs $299.95 and is available form 
Hy-gain.  The tower is located about 20 miles NE of Baltimore.

I am looking to price the tower to move, but at the same time get a fair 
price for the widow.  Your help is appreciated. 

Please contact Marty Green at k2plf3@aol.com

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From mike@kb0ozn.com  Mon Jun  4 22:53:18 2001
From: mike@kb0ozn.com (MikeB)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 16:53:18 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tower math
Message-ID: <3B1C034E.85C630C6@kb0ozn.com>

I am going to be putting up a small tubular tower soon.  I am looking
for the math that goes behind the design of the base, any tilt mech.,
mast strength etc.  
Can any one help me.

Thanks
Mike
KB0OZN

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From kahager@gis.net  Tue Jun  5 00:47:40 2001
From: kahager@gis.net (Kent Hager (KK1H))
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 19:47:40 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] US Tower tubular crankups
Message-ID: <000701c0ed50$bf465cc0$663229d8@kahager>

Attn Tower Talk Users,
Considering the purchase of a used 7 yr old US Tower MA40 Tubular style
crankup and have been told by the company that the cables need to be
replaced approx every 3 years depending on the climate by a professional
installer.  Has any user of this type of tower had to replace the cables on
their tower and if so what was the expense?  Is 3 years the approx life span
for cables on a crankups generally speaking or can you expect to get more
life out of them.  I suppose the company is playing it safe(liability wise)
when  making this recomendation.
Thanks for you opinions.....73 Kent   KK1H


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From wa3gin@erols.com  Tue Jun  5 00:57:28 2001
From: wa3gin@erols.com (David Jordan)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 19:57:28 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] US Tower tubular crankups
References: <000701c0ed50$bf465cc0$663229d8@kahager>
Message-ID: <3B1C2068.98C0D820@erols.com>

I've done everything wrong with my MA40.  Coated the cable with grease and haven't ever
changed it....been up 24yrs.  Don't be like me...keep the cable guy employed and replace
your cable...

"Kent Hager (KK1H)" wrote:

> Attn Tower Talk Users,
> Considering the purchase of a used 7 yr old US Tower MA40 Tubular...


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From kh7m@hsa-kauai.net  Tue Jun  5 01:26:24 2001
From: kh7m@hsa-kauai.net (Jim Reid)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:26:24 -1000
Subject: [TowerTalk] US Tower tubular crankups
References: <000701c0ed50$bf465cc0$663229d8@kahager>
Message-ID: <000801c0ed56$2ba9e9e0$3f7ad818@gw400>


> I have been told by the company that the cables need to be
> replaced approx every 3 years depending on the climate by 
> a professional installer.  

The wire rope (cable) on my MA550 rusted through and broke
during the 7th year!  And,  the rust was on the wire on the winch,
where most of it is when the tower is up.  I had never applied
any of the wire rope lubricant/rust preventing "sprays" etc.
which are available.  Also interesting is that it is only the cable
under tension which rusted on the winch!  My tower lowering
fixture (tilt down) has a little heavier gage rope on it,  and not
a trace of rust on that wire rope;  seems these wire rope cables
have a tendency to corrode more quickly  when under
tension,  as pointed out by others on the reflector.

Re-stringing my  tower was not possible;  I can no longer
tilt down and remove the telescoped MA assembly because
of changes in our and the neighbor's yards.  The MA type
towers must be laying on the ground,  and the sections
pulled apart to do the re-cabling job.  I opted to just
buy a new tower assembly from UST.  Pulled the old
one out of the rotating base assembly using donated
crane time,  and placed the new one at the time
with the crane again.  Should you care to look,
all of this can be seen in photos at:
http://www.karc.net/Activities/Photokh7m.htm

The lower left thumbnail photo shows the "fate" of the
old MA,  or at least two sections of it:  donated to the
Kauai radio club,  it is now one of our principal Field
Day antenna supports,  and trailer mounted at that!
Ignore the photos of that guy in the lower right corner
thumbnails,  hi.

I regularly apply a wire rope/rust inhibitor fluid to the
cable,  or at least that part of it that is reachable on
the winch.  Have tried to get it up to the higher stretches,
but is difficult using a sponge on a long pole!  Stuff
is called Whitmore's Wire Rope Lubricant.  It is
similar to other products of the sort.

Good luck and 73,  Jim KH7M




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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Mon Jun  4 22:06:14 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 14:06:14 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] New Source for Yagi Ubolts
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010531192144.009ec3b0@mail> <001f01c0ea86$7b0953e0$1ea71cd8@davidw>
Message-ID: <3B1BF846.8DC43B35@easystreet.com>

Let me add a little more data to this for you.  First, it is a Telrex antenna and that
means it is OLD so it has had quite a lot of time to deteriorate.  Personally, I would
like my antennas to outlast me, if possible.  Anyway, I acquired this antenna when I was
living in New Hampshire and it spent most of its life near the coast in Massachusetts so
the fact that it is located now near Portland, Oregon, 100 miles inland has little to do
with its past life in MA where the deterioration has mostly occurred.  I am taking this
tower and antenna down anyway and not just to illustrate a badly corroded boom to mast
plate.  It will be convenient to take a picture of it when it gets on the ground and
post it on my web page.  Incidentally, other than siezing or simply breaking or being
too expensive, I have not seen a problem with stainless hardware itself.  If you look at
a table of galvanic action, you will see that zinc is right next to aluminum in the
series which mean less potential difference between those two metals than when iron (the
main ingredient of all steels) is next to aluminum.  Iron is considerably farther away
from aluminum than zinc in the series and therefore has a larger potential for galvanic
action.  Another consideration is that one of the two metals involved in galvanic action
will be the "anode" and the other the "cathode".  The metal acting as the cathode is
"sacrificed" as the galvanic action takes place.  The stainless steel hardware I have
had experience with has come through just fine (other than sometimes seizing and/or
breaking) but not so with the aluminum it has been in contact with.  What, if any,
galvanic action takes place will be greatly affected by the environment it is in with
one of the worst being salt water.

I don't know what grade of aluminum Telrex used for their boom to mast plates so I can't
comment on that.

The point about sailboat spars is a very good one.  I suspect the surface of the
aluminum masts and spars on sailboats have been anodized and I suspect this would make
them much less susceptable to corrosion.  I have never heard of any beam booms or
elements being anodized . . .  How about a comment or two from a sailboater?

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

David J. Windisch wrote:

> SNIP
> It is the environment
> that causes the problem. Fortunately I have not experienced the problem to
> the extent Stan has, and that is probably due to my being inland ~ 2.5
> miles and about 300feet above sea-level.
> 73 Earl VE7IN
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Hi, Earl and all others concerned:
>
> Hmmmmmm .. lotsa fiberglas-hulled boats with aluminum masts, booms, spars,
> and s/s rigging out there on salt water .. there has to be at least one
> reader who could comment on what these folks do to minimize or avoid the
> problems re al-s/s contact.
>
> If Stan's place is near Portland, it could be as many as 50 mi. inland, far
> enough, I would think, to avoid the salt rain on the coast.
>
> Wonder if the grade of al has anything to do with it?    The antennas I've
> made have been 6061-T6 cuz 'everybody uses that' ;o).
>
> 73, Dave, K3BHJ
>
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From nr2v@northnet.org  Tue Jun  5 02:20:57 2001
From: nr2v@northnet.org (d l)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 21:20:57 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] testing
Message-ID: <3B1C33F9.FEFA9ED@northnet.org>

having trouble getting my messages to reflector
Dean


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From n2mg@contesting.com  Tue Jun  5 02:39:20 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 4 Jun 2001 18:39:20 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Treating aluminum (was New Source for Yagi Ubolts)
Message-ID: <20010605013920.12530.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>

On Mon, 04 June 2001, Stan or Patricia Griffiths wrote:

> I have never heard of any beam booms or
> elements being anodized...

Anodizing is unfortunately non-conductive.

Some other anti-corrosive treatments for aluminum retain conductivity such as iridite/alodine.  If I recall, these aren't as durable.

Some details:

http://www.precisionsheetmetal.com/home/finishes.htm  


73,
Mike
n2mg@contesting.com
________________________________________________
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From hankarn@pacbell.net  Tue Jun  5 05:13:01 2001
From: hankarn@pacbell.net (Dan)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 21:13:01 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Treating aluminum (was New Source for Yagi Ubolts)
References: <20010605013920.12530.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <3B1C5C4D.40BC860D@pacbell.net>

Mike, I posted this direct rather than to the reflector about the
annodize versus alodine. You are p--ing upwind to get this point across.
The boat mast are not to be conductive they are to be protective against
the enviroment. You try your luck on trying to convince all of the
BRIGHT ENGINEERS that went partying instead of reading the books to get
the smarts to be an ENGINEER no practial experience just lot of partys
in all of deltas, phis, phus, this, xta, and all of the answers with all
of that thar school larning.
alodine conducts, annodize NO.
Hank
KN6DI

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From bjk@ihug.co.nz  Tue Jun  5 06:12:53 2001
From: bjk@ihug.co.nz (Barry Kirkwood)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 17:12:53 +1200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Sail boat practice
Message-ID: <001501c0ed7e$2d53c220$99d1adcb@ihug.co.nz>

Yes,
Alumin spars etc are generally anodised for marine use.
Even so bad corrosion problems can occur, especially where salt lodges under
fittings and it all explodes with white crud.
Stainless rigging does break, typically at end fittings, and masts fall
down, failure of masts often attributed to vibration rather than load
itself.
Old timers still speak well of galvanised wire and fittings for marine use.
73


end
Barry Kirkwood PhD ZL1DD
Signal Hill Homestay
66 Cory Road
Palm Beach
Waiheke Island 1240
NEW ZEALAND
www.waiheke.co.nz/signal.htm



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From k9zm@frontiernet.net  Tue Jun  5 11:41:11 2001
From: k9zm@frontiernet.net (Greg Gobleman)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 05:41:11 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] New Source for Yagi Ubolts
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010531192144.009ec3b0@mail> <001f01c0ea86$7b0953e0$1ea71cd8@davidw> <3B1BF846.8DC43B35@easystreet.com>
Message-ID: <000901c0edac$10df4780$4bab82d1@k9zm>

I thought all Telrex antennas used a cadmium plated steel plate
and hardware for the boom to mast plate?  My TB6EM does and adds
a considerable amount to the weight of the antenna.  It's
something they seemed proud to advertise in their brochures.

Greg K9ZM


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From n4kg@juno.com  Tue Jun  5 13:18:51 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 06:18:51 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
Message-ID: <20010605.061907.-103099.1.N4KG@juno.com>

Guy Insulator Placement   de   N4KG   (Feb 2000)

The following lengths between insulators have 
resonances between the conventional bands 
(which places their resonancesin the WARC bands :-) 
-  27, 40, 58, and 76 ft.  (per ARRL  Antenna Book)

You may want to make your wires slightly shorter 
to compensate for the capacitive end loading of the 
loops through the insulators.

You need to place the first insulator as close to the
tower as possible to prevent coupling to continuous
wire from one insulator, through the tower, to another
insulator.

For the first insulated section, I like to use a short
piece of 10 to 12 ft between insulators.  This length
is substantially less than 1/2 wavelength (WL) on
10M and will therefore be nearly invisible on all frequencies
below 28 MHz.  For even better isolation, use two 10-12
ft sections before going to longer spans.

de  Tom  N4KG



On Fri, 04 Feb 2000 02:34:09 +0000 Peter Larsen <ve6yc@home.com> writes:
> 
> Hi All:
> Could some one please send me the recommended lengths
> of guy wires to break up resonance.
> I know this has been discussed here before, but I just get lost 
> in the archives.
> 
> Finally the 100 foot guyed tower is going to go up!
> -- 
>  Peter J. Larsen
>  VE6YC  DO21wc

________________________________________________________________
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From ka2d@arrl.net  Tue Jun  5 13:10:48 2001
From: ka2d@arrl.net (Tom Carrubba KA2D)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 08:10:48 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] US Tower tubular crankups
References: <000701c0ed50$bf465cc0$663229d8@kahager>
Message-ID: <009401c0edb8$91abe1a0$6401a8c0@p550>

Kent

My advice is to replace the cable. It is an easy job on the
MA40.

I had a cable break. It bent the boom on the antenna..

Tom KA2D

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Hager (KK1H)" <kahager@gis.net>
To: "Tower Talk Users" <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 7:47 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] US Tower tubular crankups


> Attn Tower Talk Users,
> Considering the purchase of a used 7 yr old US Tower MA40
Tubular style
> crankup and have been told by the company that the cables
need to be
> replaced approx every 3 years depending on the climate by
a professional
> installer.  Has any user of this type of tower had to
replace the cables on
> their tower and if so what was the expense?  Is 3 years
the approx life span
> for cables on a crankups generally speaking or can you
expect to get more
> life out of them.  I suppose the company is playing it
safe(liability wise)
> when  making this recomendation.
> Thanks for you opinions.....73 Kent   KK1H
>
>
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this summer? Call us
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self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>
>


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From N7VM@lgcy.com  Tue Jun  5 20:20:59 2001
From: N7VM@lgcy.com (Bill Ralston - N7VM)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 13:20:59 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Utah PE Wanted
Message-ID: <006b01c0edf4$a77c05a0$1ca7adcf@etpswuxh>

I know this is a long shot... but if any of you are a registered PE in
Utah... I'd like to hire you.

I am planning to put up a tower installation near Salt Lake City , but
intend to deviate sufficiently from the Rohn standards that I will most
likely need a PE stamp on my permit drawings.  Particulars:

100 ft Rohn 55, two levels of guys
Phllystran or other non-conducting guys
40-2CD on mast at top at 105'
C31XR on ring rotor at 95'
C31XR on ring rotor at 50'
Soil is anywhere from 2 to 4' of rocky loam on top of solid rock (may not be
able to go 4' deep without major excavation expense)
Terrain is not quite level (+/- 5 feet from tower base to guy points)
70 MPH county wind rating... but local conditions that I believe suggest
conservatism may be warranted (i.e. 50-60 MPH gusts every year of the last
three)
Considering elevated guy anchors to protect deer / reduce vandalism threat

Of course, comments and critique on the proposed installation are welcome,
but mainly I'm looking for the PE help in getting a permit. (I'm prepared to
pay - I'm not looking for a freebee).  Any leads would be appreciated.

(And yes, I've checked the ARRL Web Site under Volunteer Consulting
Engineers - nil under Utah).

Thanks

Bill
N7VM@lgcy.com





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From n2tk@earthlink.net  Tue Jun  5 21:34:06 2001
From: n2tk@earthlink.net (N2TK)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 16:34:06 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] grounding coax to boom and tower
Message-ID: <000001c0edfe$e5fb4660$d21ffc9e@tony>

What's the recommended hardware to bond the shield of the coax on the house
side of the balun to the boom, mast or tower leg? Based on the input from
towertalk I am going to ground the shield of each coax. Do I use Polyphaser
hardware or ?? I see UNI-Kits listed. Is this the way to go? Do I have to
worry about dissimilar metal problems with the UNI-Kits with either the
coax, boom, or mast? What about soldering copper strap to the coax shield
and clamping it to the boom, or is this what the UNI-Kits do?
Tnx
Tony
N2TK


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From w5kp@swbell.net  Tue Jun  5 13:30:21 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 07:30:21 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy wire resonance
Message-ID: <005b01c0edbb$4a69f860$5420c1cf@w5kp>

Thanks for all the helpful replies on my previous question on this subject.
One Talkian pointed out that Phillystran isn't that much more expensive than
steel, and of course does away with all the guy wire resonance problems. I
didn't believe him at first, but I did some some arithmetic, and danged if
doing this 74-foot 45G with Phillystran doesn't come out only about $150
more than using steel EHS, and I wouldn't have to get carpal tunnel
installing a bazillion insulators. It's amazing how things add up when you
are buying upwards of 25 insulators, 50+ preforms, several hundred feet of
EHS, a whole bunch of thimbles, etc. etc.

So now, whilst waiting for the local power company to mark their buried
lines near the tower site,  I'm rethinking my position and looking to
possibly go to Phillystran. Is Texas Towers the only game in town for this
stuff and it's associated accessories like grips? Nothing against TT, they
have always treated me well, just wondered if they have a lock on the
market. Are there any pitfalls or horror stories about Phillystran I should
hear?
Thanks,
Jerry W5KP

P.S. Another pat on the back for National Electronics in Shawnee Mission,
Kansas, from whom I ordered the 45G and related stuff. One section that was
mangled in transit by a wildhaired American Freightways forklift driver was
replaced in two business days, prepaid freight, with nary a hint of hassle.
I like the way these people do business.





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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Wed Jun  6 05:02:38 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 00:02:38 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Trylon Tower update
Message-ID: <004601c0ee3d$9f176460$8f76fc3f@spelunk.sueno>

TT:

     I laid out the guide strings for the foundation today.  (Good thing I
watched the Discovery Channel's episode on how the Egyptians laid out the
pyramids!)  Then I rented a post-hole digger with an eight-inch bit and
spent the late afternoon and evening drilling holes in the hard clay soil
between the guide strings down to about three and a half feet or so.  Next
time I might just use a digging bar (here's a thought - pay some one to dig
with a backhoe!)  Tomorrow afternoon will be spent shoveling the soil out of
the hole; day after will be more of the same.  Probably won't start the last
foot and a half of depth until Saturday.

     Don't worry - I won't bore you with daily updates, just when I reach
major milestones (like setting the form atop the hole and assembling the
tower base on top of it.)

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
P.S.  I'll write a summary of my readings on antenna windloading tomorrow.
Suffice it to say for this evening that I'm not going to take the
manufacturers' word on the area their designs present to the wind.  I'll
calculate it for myself, based on antenna dimensions contained in the
assembly manuals.


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From n2mg@contesting.com  Wed Jun  6 14:07:39 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 6 Jun 2001 06:07:39 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy wire resonance
Message-ID: <20010606130739.24702.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>

On Tue, 05 June 2001, "J. Kincade" wrote:

> One Talkian pointed out that Phillystran isn't that 
> much more expensive than steel, and of course does 
> away with all the guy wire resonance problems. 

A topic currently near to my heart (and wallet).

I'd like to see the numbers for your 75 foot R45 tower.

For a tower of ~120 feet (for which I'm in the throes 
of constructing) the numbers show that Philly is about 
2X EHS. 

Roughly, for 120ft tower, 80% guy spacing, four guys 
per side equates to 1650' guy wire.  With 4 insulators per guy (48 total) and 10 grips/guy (8 for the insulators, 2 for the ends) and ignoring thimbles/sleeves (and ASSEMBLY time!) I get:

************EHS

1/4" EHS    $0.189/ft
502 insul   $5.50
Big grip    $6.00

(1650ft * $0.189) + (48 * $5.50) + (120 * $6.00)
 = $1296

************Phillystran

6700# Philly   $1.29/ft
grip           $12.00

(1650ft * $1.29) + (24 * $12.00) 
 = $2416

**************

This uses TexasTowers pricing (no not the cheapest for 
steel, but the only game for Philly).

EHS costs can go lower as you can shop around: there are various commercial sources and, albeit limited, hamfest-type availability for EHS stuff.  If you're in a hurry, then, well, this is somewhat moot.

The performance issues have been addressed here before, and IMO, the classic tradeoff of 
price/performance looks good for Philly. But for me 
(and I'm trying to build two such towers), I'll take 
the "sweat equity". :)


________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Wed Jun  6 14:37:43 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:37:43 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy wire resonance - Phillystran
Message-ID: <e0.15c2f5b3.284f8c27@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/6/01 6:08:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
n2mg@contesting.com writes:

> This uses TexasTowers pricing (no not the cheapest for 
>  steel, but the only game for Philly).
>  
        Actually Burghardt Radio in Watertown, SD, is the other ham 
Phillystran dealer. They're a bunch of really nice folks and I think the 
prices are comparable.

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech
Champion Radio Products

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From w7ti@jps.net  Wed Jun  6 15:02:54 2001
From: w7ti@jps.net (Bill Turner W7TI)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 07:02:54 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy wire resonance
In-Reply-To: <20010606130739.24702.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
References: <20010606130739.24702.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <qudshtoa3mob8kc80mik46bgrla36sn4o1@4ax.com>

On 6 Jun 2001 06:07:39 -0700, Mike Gilmer - N2MG wrote:

>
>************EHS
>
>1/4" EHS    $0.189/ft
>502 insul   $5.50
>Big grip    $6.00
>
>(1650ft * $0.189) + (48 * $5.50) + (120 * $6.00)
> = $1296
>
>************Phillystran
>
>6700# Philly   $1.29/ft
>grip           $12.00
>
>(1650ft * $1.29) + (24 * $12.00) 
> = $2416
>
>**************

_________________________________________________________

I've always had self-supporting towers, now I know why!!  :-)

Bill, W7TI

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From W8JI@contesting.com  Wed Jun  6 15:19:12 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 10:19:12 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
In-Reply-To: <20010605.061907.-103099.1.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <200106061421.f56ELRU24750@paris.akorn.net>


> You need to place the first insulator as close to the
> tower as possible to prevent coupling to continuous
> wire from one insulator, through the tower, to another
> insulator.

That is not necessarily where the problem is. The guy wire can be 
resonant with the electrical length of the tower at the attachment 
point, and not even involve another guy wire. When you attach a 
guyline directly to the tower, you bring the entire tower into 
play...like a sloper does. 

Also, conductors do not need to be resonant to re-radiate or to 
affect pattern. Any RF current flowing in a conductor will cause the 
conductor to radiate. The amount of radiation is related to the 
amount of current and the distance over which that current is 
flowing, the "ampere/feet". Long guy wire sections can have a bad 
effect even when not resonant.

To have an unwanted effect, a conductor simply needs to have 
enough induced current to develop a field that affects nulls of the 
antenna. The longer the wire the less current it needs for the same 
radiation. If a guy line re-radiates a field that is 15 or 20 dB less 
than the main lobe of the antenna, it can still noticeably reduce the 
depth of antenna nulls! 

The best rule is to avoid resonant lengths AND keep the lengths in 
strong field areas of the antenna much shorter than 1/2 wl. This 
would include if you point other antennas through the guylines from 
some distance away. Near the antenna, guy lines should not 
electrically connect to the tower.


73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From W8JI@contesting.com  Wed Jun  6 15:19:12 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 10:19:12 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy wire resonance
In-Reply-To: <20010606130739.24702.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <200106061421.f56ELVU24758@paris.akorn.net>

> 1/4" EHS    $0.189/ft
> 502 insul   $5.50
> Big grip    $6.00
> (1650ft * $0.189) + (48 * $5.50) + (120 * $6.00)
>  = $1296

> EHS costs can go lower as you can shop around: there are various
> commercial sources and, albeit limited, hamfest-type availability for EHS
> stuff.  If you're in a hurry, then, well, this is somewhat moot.

As you point out, EHS and the other materials are available for 
much less than in the example above. My last purchase of grips 
was at $1.65 each, my last purchase of 502 insulators at just over 
$2 each.

I would like to use non-metallic guy lines, but the price keeps me 
away! 
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From steve@oakcom.com  Wed Jun  6 16:49:55 2001
From: steve@oakcom.com (Steve Maki)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 11:49:55 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy wire resonance
In-Reply-To: <200106061421.f56ELVU24758@paris.akorn.net>
References: <20010606130739.24702.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net> <200106061421.f56ELVU24758@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <96ksht80btr5mh4pfcv64pab2681k8rf3r@4ax.com>

"Tom Rauch" <w8ji@contesting.com> wrote:

>I would like to use non-metallic guy lines, but the price keeps me 
>away! 

Did you consider fiberglass rod?

--
Steve Maki

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From JBaumgarte@aol.com  Wed Jun  6 16:51:59 2001
From: JBaumgarte@aol.com (JBaumgarte@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 11:51:59 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guying material/cost
Message-ID: <d8.75cf5eb.284fab9f@aol.com>

With all the talk about the expense of guying (phily and EHS), it might be a 
good time to remind folks to check out Rohn 55 over 45.  I have 110' of 55 
with a 20' mast and it's guyed in two places--50 & 100.  Has lots of antennas 
on it (spread out from 52 to 125'), PE approved, and certainly has a lot less 
footage of whatever guy line you chose.  Once you have tried 55 you won't go 
back to 45.  Price might not be too different --110' Rohn 45 with 3 
sets--Rohn 55 with two sets.  The big expense is that 20' 1/2" wall 133,000 
PSI mast! 

73
John, N0IJ

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From michael.dinkelman@physio-control.com  Wed Jun  6 17:14:56 2001
From: michael.dinkelman@physio-control.com (Dinkelman, Michael W.)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:14:56 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy wire resonance
Message-ID: <B6D0644CBEA8D211B7600008C74CC95506C46BB0@Chelan>

Must be some tower (I didn't see the original post) 

Actually, my issue is the costs shown, not the argument
over Philly or Steel. Both can do the job if installed
properly and both have pro's and con's.

However, lets consider some cost savings here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Most of Rohn's drawings only call for 3/16 EHS on a 25G tower

Even 45G towers usually have only one run of 1/4 EHS (top set of guys)

The Philly equivalent of 3/16" EHS (4000#) is $.40 cheaper than
of the 1/4" EHS equivalent. (Granted - 3/16" EHS  is also cheaper
than  1/4" EHS but the delta is smaller. i.e. you would save
$400 in guy material alone going to 4000# material in the example
shown) Grips are cheaper at that size too. 

Break 'em up anyway you want, but if I was going steel, and cost
WAS important, I would consider clamps before buying 120 grips. 
Properly installed, they work too - just not as "cool" and a bit
more work. 

Then, I would consider only using Philly for upper guys or near
antennas depending on how you are going to load the tower. Once you
get out and/or down a ways, use steel - who says the entire guy
has to be Philly? (It should be partially steel anyway for
safety) It really depends on your individual setup. 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, Philly is more expensive than steel, but I think the shown tower 
example is overkill. Now maybe the tower to be built needs to
stand up to 150 Mph winds, is going to hold up a house, or you 
really want to sleep well at night. If so, go with the original 
materials - peace of mind is never too expensive. Otherwise, I 
think the straight across comparison with overly conservative
materials was unfair. My Saturn gets me around just as well as
any Lexus but I do add a few accessories where I feel they benefit
me. Same with my tower. A little compromise while maintaining
manufacturer design specs might yield some good results at a 
"reasonable" extra cost. 


Philly and steel guyed tower owner
dink, n7wa



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Bill Turner W7TI
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 7:03 AM
To: Mike Gilmer - N2MG
Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Guy wire resonance


On 6 Jun 2001 06:07:39 -0700, Mike Gilmer - N2MG wrote:

>
>************EHS
>
>1/4" EHS    $0.189/ft
>502 insul   $5.50
>Big grip    $6.00
>
>(1650ft * $0.189) + (48 * $5.50) + (120 * $6.00)
> = $1296
>
>************Phillystran
>
>6700# Philly   $1.29/ft
>grip           $12.00
>
>(1650ft * $1.29) + (24 * $12.00) 
> = $2416
>
>**************

_________________________________________________________

I've always had self-supporting towers, now I know why!!  :-)

Bill, W7TI

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From k1my@qwest.net  Wed Jun  6 17:42:08 2001
From: k1my@qwest.net (Bruce Makas)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:42:08 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] antenna mounts
Message-ID: <EOEFIGFENHCAGPPJFHAHOEOFCEAA.k1my@qwest.net>

Two questions:

1. I have a rotating tower, how do I mount the antenna to the tower? I
recall that there are several venders that sell these mounts.

2. I have a non-rotating tower and I want to mount a beam in a fixed
direction to this tower. If a face of the tower is not in line with the
direction I want, how do I mount the antenna? There needs to be some form of
adjustment, I would think.

Thanks in advance.

Bruce, K1MY

Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona


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From KI7WX@aol.com  Wed Jun  6 18:11:40 2001
From: KI7WX@aol.com (KI7WX@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 13:11:40 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy wire resonance
Message-ID: <c.16ca1c85.284fbe4d@aol.com>


I think everyone that has stacking dreams must go through exactly the same spreadsheet excercise on guying materials. I know I did. A couple notes on what I did and learned.  Nothing new, just felt like adding to the QRM....

0) Yes, we all have budgets.  However, look at the tower as a system and determine where your overall costs are.  N3RR did a great job of this and presents his thoughts nicely on his web site.  Check it out.  Guy lines are a large percentage of the cost, but they are also critical to do correctly.  Most everyone will agree that antennas are the #1 priority for a ham station. The tower keeps your #1 priority in the air so why skimp on it's construction? If you are stacking antennas down the tower you've already committed to a large structure with significant costs.  Steel conducts, Philly and Polygon rod do not.  Again, you're spending a good deal of money and time on a complex system - consider present and future plans and be wary of false economies.  As a complete aside, it helps to have an XYL who says things like: "Just use 55G because I don't want to hear you whine about how 25G sucks to climb."

1) Forget about using clamps instead of grips.  I used clamps on my 45 foot tower (to save a few pennies) and will never ever use them again.  Some things in life are worth a little more money and preforms are one of them.  They are probably easier for the average dude to install properly which would make them safer as well. Not to say clamps are not safe if installed properly.

2) 55G rocks, but note that the 100 foot 55g tower cited with two guys at 50/100 feet is built to the 70 mph spec.  Take it up to 90mph Rohn spec and you need three guy lines.  We're also talking about stacking antennas down the tower - those antennas will put twisting moments into the tower in ways that the Rohn specs don't account for, and that the typical ham probably doesn't understand (I know I don't).  Simply saying two guys is OK and going forward may not be the best approach. Hank and Kurt can comment more if they like.  

Having said that, my largest tower is 105 feet of 55G guyed with Philly 6700i.  Is that overkill?  Perhaps, but I got a good deal on the sections, and rather than trying to save 10% of my costs it was a lot more important to me to build a robust structure that would be sufficient, safe, and which would meet my predicted needs for the future. 

Take home for me was simple: Towers in the 100 foot and higher range are large investments meant to last a long time. Consider them as long term investments where the costs are spread over a long period of time and then make today's judgements with this in mind. 

Happy building and do it safely!

Mark

KI7WX  (Station in /4, Operator in /6)
http://pvrcnc.org/station/ki7wx/



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From PBARKEY@gw.bsu.edu  Wed Jun  6 18:57:06 2001
From: PBARKEY@gw.bsu.edu (Patrick Barkey)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 12:57:06 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] antenna mounts
Message-ID: <sb1e28b3.013@gw.bsu.edu>

Bruce,

On my rotating R55 I made up boom plates that enable me to
put 1.5" muffler clamps in four places, two on each
tower leg.  Easy.

On a non-rotating tower, there will be several approaches.
The one I have used is to take a couple of stout pieces
of angle, each mounted flat against the tower with
the appropriate sized muffler clamps.  Then put a shortie
mast between them and bolt the antenna to that.

In Michigan we used to have a lower 10 meter beam
mounted that way, and at about 2 or 3 PM we'd climb up
and turn if from EU to JA.

On very light beams I might just use the tower vertical
leg as a mast, but I would rather spread that turning
torque across two legs.

   - Pat
     N9RV

>>> "Bruce Makas" <k1my@qwest.net> 06/06 11:42 AM >>>
Two questions:

1. I have a rotating tower, how do I mount the antenna to the tower? I
recall that there are several venders that sell these mounts.

2. I have a non-rotating tower and I want to mount a beam in a fixed
direction to this tower. If a face of the tower is not in line with the
direction I want, how do I mount the antenna? There needs to be some form of
adjustment, I would think.

Thanks in advance.

Bruce, K1MY

Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona


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From wt4mb@bellsouth.net  Wed Jun  6 20:01:06 2001
From: wt4mb@bellsouth.net (Michael Bartee)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 14:01:06 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Earth Anchor
Message-ID: <000701c0eebb$0c0dcd20$63e94cd8@main>

Can anyone tell me what the load capability is for a 6" X 48" screw in earth
anchor ? I am looking for anchors for a 45' R25G tower and would prefer not
to deal with concrete type anchors if possible. All input will be helpful.
73, Mike.



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From n2mg@contesting.com  Wed Jun  6 20:24:20 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 6 Jun 2001 12:24:20 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Earth Anchor
Message-ID: <20010606192420.18220.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>

The Rohn GAS604 is a 6in X 4ft screw anchor.
Rohn rates it at 2500# holding power; see bottom of

http://www.rohnnet.com/CommPro/Hardware/Guy.htm

73 Mike N2MG

On Wed, 06 June 2001, "Michael Bartee" wrote:

> Can anyone tell me what the load capability is for 
> a 6" X 48" screw in earth
> anchor ?

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 

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From rrossi@btv.ibm.com  Wed Jun  6 20:32:38 2001
From: rrossi@btv.ibm.com (R.D. (Ron)  Rossi)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 15:32:38 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Earth Anchor
In-Reply-To: <000701c0eebb$0c0dcd20$63e94cd8@main>
Message-ID: <200106061933.PAA30264@johnpaul.btv.ibm.com>

The first page is more information than you would want to know. The followig three are some important points from the whole book. I used 8" anchors and bought them from Graybar (check the yellow pages or the web) at just over $100 for three shipped (they will charge you shipping if they dont have them. Buy the thimble eye not the triple whatever-they-call-it.


http://www.hubbellpowersystems.com/powertest/chance/anchor_encyclopedia/anch_encyc_hom.htm

http://www.hubbellpowersystems.com/powertest/chance/anchor_encyclopedia/ae_sec_b/anchor_catalog/anchor_tool_09.htm

http://www.hubbellpowersystems.com/powertest/chance/anchor_encyclopedia/ae_sec_b/app_guide/appg_04.htm

http://www.hubbellpowersystems.com/powertest/chance/anchor_encyclopedia/anch_encyc_pg3.htm


-- 
73 es God Bless de KK1L...ron (kk1l@arrl.net) <><
QTH: Jericho, Vermont
My page: http://www.qsl.net/kk1l


>>>"Michael Bartee" said:
> Can anyone tell me what the load capability is for a 6" X 48" screw in earth
> anchor ? I am looking for anchors for a 45' R25G tower and would prefer not
> to deal with concrete type anchors if possible. All input will be helpful.
> 73, Mike.
> 
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadi
    o.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
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> 
> 



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From K7GCO@aol.com  Wed Jun  6 23:06:44 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 18:06:44 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
Message-ID: <64.ee8c4f8.28500374@aol.com>

   The posts below show the questions that still exist on the need of 
breaking up guy wires.  N7WA got it right.  Some time ago I gave info on TT 
of Eznec patterns I ran of different length guy wires below beams.  I 
concluded from the Eznec and previous 2M test data using a scaled tower and 
guy wires that--if the guy support was Phillistran for a 1/2 wave at the 
lowest frequency of any beam--it could be any length of wire from there down. 
 Eznec showed with the current amplitude function wide open virtually NO 
current on the guy wires 1/2 WL below.  Many have since confirmed this to me 
with actual tests on guy wires. There were ways we checked guy wire RF 50 
years ago with flouresant lamps, neon lamps and light bulbs shunted across 
the guy wires.  Another test is--does the SWR change during rotation?  I 
found with test data that SWR change with beam rotation was often incorrectly 
blamed on power lines and guy wires.  The problem "went away" when a balun 
was added to the coax feeding a balanced 50 ohm feedpoint.  The "RF Spill 
Over" on to the coax shield and to the tower and guy wires was "the source" 
of the problem.  I also had a 20' wood tower guyed with ropes.  The power 
lines 50' away were not the problem.  I added RF anmmeters to a TH-4 
feedpoint, measured the current balance and unbalance with and without the 
balun and watched how the currents and SWR varied with rotation.  This was 
published 25 years ago.  Self supporting metal towers and telephone poles 
also solve a lot of problems.  

A single insulator at the tower for all metal guys is a must and will 
eliminate RF Spill Over transfer to the guys from the tower and coax shield.  
There can still be RF coupling from the beam to a guy directly underneath 
even with the insulator at the tower and a resonant length of a guy like an 
inverted vee.  I found minimum coupling with the inverted vees 10' or more 
below the beam.  The reasons are obvious as explained below and verifiable in 
Eznec.  I and others have run tests with a test dipoles a mile way and have 
run patterns checking for pattern distortion and null fill in.  The most 
sensitive part of the pattern are the nulls which are easy to fill in if of 
the same polarization.  They will fill in by vertical polarization in all 
directions (only if received signal is vertically polarized) with no balun 
and even with a typical Gamma RF Spill Over on to the shield and tower.  With 
beams like the TA-33 without a balun, the TA-33 is mostly a "50 ohm matching 
device for the coax to the tower and guys" (in particular with the metal guys 
attached directly to the tower).
 
 There is a very straight forward and logical justification for all of this I 
realized over 50 years ago.  This will "ring a bell" if you have ever spent 
time trying to tune up a beam with a FS meter or just varied lengths in 
Eznec.  

Consider this: Assume a 3 element yagi on the tower and/or in Eznec.  If you 
add a director and vary it for length and spacing for optimum gain increase 
the most you can get is about 1 dB and it will affect the DE Z some.  In 
order to do this it has to be:
 1. An optimum spacing of around .1-.2 WL.
 2. An optimum length within a percent (on each band).
 3. Of the same polarization
 4. In the same plane in front on the boom
 5. A similar construction of tubing or wire
 Only with all 5 of these "totally optimized" will you get a maximum of about 
1 dB (even less per optimum element the more you add) and some change of 
feedpoint Z.  If anyone is not optimum you will get far less than 1 dB and or 
"nothing" like if the element is not the same polarization and even of the 
right length and spacing.  So you tell me how a guy wire that is not of a 
resonant or a certain length, not in the same plane out front and not of the 
same polarization going to up set the beams pattern or SWR?  If your beams DE 
has a feed system with no RF Spill Over or a good balun is used, you are 
going to go like hell to get a noticeable affect from guy wires unless 
attached to the tower without an insulator and right under the beam.  

With a 1/2 wave of Phillistran from the tower down to a metal guy wire, it's 
totally out of any field that is of any concern.  Scale this in Eznec, rotate 
the beam (that will take awhile). and see for your self.
 
 Further more beams have a vertical directive pattern that points straight 
ahead.  Therefore the pattern component pointing down at guy wires is greatly 
attenuated and any reflected RF is attenuated again back toward the beam.  
The higher the gain of the beam the more isolated the beam is from 
surrounding objects to the side/back and below.  It just doesn't see them.  
Take a 2M 3 and then a 11 element beam and attach it to a MFJ SWR Analyzer.  
Point the beam at metal objects and then put them on the side/back and below 
the beam and observe what it takes and how close they have to be to affect 
the SWR.  You will get the "isolation message".  RF can bounce off metal 
objects but unless it bounces back at the "right everything in the right 
plane", the beams pattern and SWR are virtually unaffected.  When you run 
these tests with say a 2M beam and scaled guy wires and a tower or in Eznec 
you will see there has been too much concern for guy wires affect except for 
what is right under the beam for a 1/2 wave.  The multiple-insulator 
installation all the way to the ground is mostly just another "TT Band Aid" 
for a problem not properly addressed like poor feed systems used in beams.  
Fix the source of the problem first.  Unless Phillistran is used for a 1/2 
wave from the tower I'd suggest an insulator at the tower, one at 5', one at 
15' and one at 30' in metal guys.   Any metal guy wire below that is "out of 
the field of any concern."  Use a 2M beam, scaled tower and guys and run all 
kinds of tests if you still have any doubt.  Also buy the Palomar RF Current 
Meter to measure the RF on wires and tower legs.  I did this 50 years ago for 
my interest, demonstrated it at Convention and Club talks.  Dr Don Reynolds 
of the U of Washington EE Department did the same thing about 20 years ago.
 
 I have suggested making 1/4 wave verticals using the guys from the ground up 
with radial systems under each guy wire at the ground attachment point up to 
within a 1/2 wave of the tower at the beams lowest frequency.  Since they 
slant toward the tower and are about the right spacing, there can be a "fair 
reflector affect" from the tower.  Now you have a directive 3 or 4 antenna 
system for say 80&40M with no affect to a beam.  If the tower is high enough 
I'd suggest 3 or 4 1/2 wave 40M verticals center fed--no radials needed.  Or 
they can be fed with an L network at the base and no radial system is 
needed--just a ground rod to cool the coax shield.  It's a great system that 
I and other have used.  I've also phased the 2 guy antennas at right angles 
to the main driven antenna to obtain a directive pattern.  One of my next 
long winter projects is to phase in the back antenna somewhat like a "4 
Square" and see if I can minimize even more the affect of the tower in the 
center.  I've already done it using 3 and/or4--l/4&1/2 waves and will 
finalize the results.  The guy wire verticals can be trapped for 80/40M also. 
 I've added another 80M trap at the top and a 160M pigtail back away from the 
tower for resonance at right angles to the guy with great results on 160M.  
It's a way of maximizing everything you have a for all bands if restricted to 
one tower.  Guy wires as antennas has been greatly ignored in ham use 
unjustifiably.  Fortunately no one told me I couldn't use them.  Perhaps this 
will spur some interest in that direction.  K7GCO
 
In a message dated 6/6/01 9:16:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
michael.dinkelman@physio-control.com writes:<< 
 
< Then, I would consider only using Philly for upper guys or near
 antennas depending on how you are going to load the tower. Once you
 get out and/or down a ways, use steel - who says the entire guy
 has to be Philly? (It should be partially steel anyway for
 safety) It really depends on your individual setup. 
 
 Philly and steel guyed tower owner
 dink, n7wa
***Right on!!  >>
  
In a message dated 6/5/01 4:44:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, n4kg@juno.com 
writes:<< 
  Guy Insulator Placement   de   N4KG   (Feb 2000)
  The following lengths between insulators have 
  resonances between the conventional bands 
  (which places their resonancesin the WARC bands :-) 
  -  27, 40, 58, and 76 ft.  (per ARRL  Antenna Book)
  
  You may want to make your wires slightly shorter 
  to compensate for the capacitive end loading of the 
  loops through the insulators.
  
  You need to place the first insulator as close to the
  tower as possible to prevent coupling to continuous
  wire from one insulator, through the tower, to another
  insulator.
  
  For the first insulated section, I like to use a short
  piece of 10 to 12 ft between insulators.  This length
  is substantially less than 1/2 wavelength (WL) on
  10M and will therefore be nearly invisible on all frequencies
  below 28 MHz.  For even better isolation, use two 10-12
  ft sections before going to longer spans. 
  de  Tom  N4KG
  
  On Fri, 04 Feb 2000 02:34:09 +0000 Peter Larsen <ve6yc@home.com> writes:
  > Hi All:
  > Could some one please send me the recommended lengths
  > of guy wires to break up resonance.
  > I know this has been discussed here before, but I just get lost 
  > in the archives.
  > 
  > Finally the 100 foot guyed tower is going to go up!
  >  Peter J. Larsen
  >  VE6YC  DO21wc
 
 In a message dated 6/5/01 6:03:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, w5kp@swbell.net 
writes:
 << Thanks for all the helpful replies on my previous question on this 
subject.
  One Talkian pointed out that Phillystran isn't that much more expensive than
  steel, and of course does away with all the guy wire resonance problems. I
  didn't believe him at first, but I did some some arithmetic, and danged if
  doing this 74-foot 45G with Phillystran doesn't come out only about $150
  more than using steel EHS, and I wouldn't have to get carpal tunnel
  installing a bazillion insulators. It's amazing how things add up when you
  are buying upwards of 25 insulators, 50+ preforms, several hundred feet of
  EHS, a whole bunch of thimbles, etc. etc.
  
  So now, whilst waiting for the local power company to mark their buried
  lines near the tower site,  I'm rethinking my position and looking to
  possibly go to Phillystran. Is Texas Towers the only game in town for this
  stuff and it's associated accessories like grips? Nothing against TT, they
  have always treated me well, just wondered if they have a lock on the
  market. Are there any pitfalls or horror stories about Phillystran I should
  hear?
  Thanks,
  Jerry W5KP
  >>

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From hasben@ix.netcom.com  Wed Jun  6 23:05:25 2001
From: hasben@ix.netcom.com (hasben)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 17:05:25 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] antenna mounts
References: <EOEFIGFENHCAGPPJFHAHOEOFCEAA.k1my@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <003d01c0eed5$4f42da80$9794b8cd@default>

Hi Bruce,

We manufacture Boom to Tower plates and Boom to leg mounts just for this
application.

Have these available for 2", 3" and 4" booms, and for Rohn 25,45,55, 65 and
80.

If you need to offset the Boom angle from the tower face we also supply
brackets with turnbuckles.

Had quite a selection at Dayton, but no photo's yet.

If you can wait a few days I will get some photographs for you.

Regards
Richard  K0XG   www.qth,com/k0xg

----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Makas <k1my@qwest.net>
To: towertalk submital <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 11:42 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] antenna mounts


> Two questions:
>
> 1. I have a rotating tower, how do I mount the antenna to the tower? I
> recall that there are several venders that sell these mounts.
>
> 2. I have a non-rotating tower and I want to mount a beam in a fixed
> direction to this tower. If a face of the tower is not in line with the
> direction I want, how do I mount the antenna? There needs to be some form
of
> adjustment, I would think.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Bruce, K1MY
>
> Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona
>
>
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us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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From thompson@mindspring.com  Wed Jun  6 23:19:21 2001
From: thompson@mindspring.com (David L. Thompson)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 18:19:21 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy wire resonance
References: <20010606130739.24702.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net> <200106061421.f56ELVU24758@paris.akorn.net> <96ksht80btr5mh4pfcv64pab2681k8rf3r@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <006101c0eed6$bcdebd60$d19f56d1@default>

I have never broken up my guys.  After reading W8JI's statement this proves
my point.   I am sure I have had pattern distortion
but I feel the only alternate solution is to use kevlar. To replace guy wire
with even heavy insulators mid stream weakens the support substantially. I
have seen the big signal corps insulators blow to pieces with a lighterning
strike.  I recently  found 3 pieces of the 6700lb kevlar with factory
installed connectors on the internet for $20 (plus shipping)each (73'
lenghts).   I keep looking for more as this is surplus stuff smd only a
fraction of the current ham net.

Dave K4JRB



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From K2plf3@aol.com  Thu Jun  7 02:29:30 2001
From: K2plf3@aol.com (K2plf3@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:29:30 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] For Sale Hy-gain HG-52SS Self Supporting 52 foot crank up tower
Message-ID: <16.d9a0b55.285032fa@aol.com>

For sale:

Hy-gain HG-52SS Self Supporting 52 foot 3 section crank up tower.  Sixteen 
years old and in good condition.  Belonged to Harold Archer, W3SKK a recent 
silent key.  Art Brown, W3KHZ and I are helping his widow dispose of his ham 
equipment.  The tower currently sells new from Hy-gain for around $2600 and 
we are asking $595.  The tower is on the ground and ready for pickup in 
Fallston, MD which is about 20 miles NE of Baltimore.  I have contacted 
Hy-gain and a new base section is available from them for $299.95.  Like any 
used crank up tower of this age, I would recommend recabling the wench 
mechanism.

Mrs. Archer has sold and closed on the house, so we need to get the tower 
removed from the property as soon as possible for the new owner.

Please contact me at k2plf@aol.com or at 410-692-6025 day or evening.

Marty Green, K2PLF

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From rhodes@evertek.net  Thu Jun  7 04:11:01 2001
From: rhodes@evertek.net (Jim Rhodes)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 22:11:01 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn fiber insulators
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010606220726.02384a00@pop3.evertek.net>

Has anyone out there ever used the rohn 24' fiberglass insulators? If they 
aren't too expensive (yes I know they are sold by rohn) they look like a 
good way to get the EHS guys away from the tower. Would be great on my 
stubby thing, the guys on it now are just EHS with no insulators and they 
to mess up the wires.

Jim Rhodes K0XU
jim@rhodesend.net


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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Thu Jun  7 04:19:23 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 23:19:23 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux
Message-ID: <001c01c0ef00$aa766c20$6276fc3f@spelunk.sueno>

TT:

     I won't feel offended if you hit "delete" at this point.

     Following up on my recent postings regarding wind loads presented by
Yagi antennas, I now know that I made the same error that numerous hams and
ham publications have been making for a couple of decades.  That is, I
assumed (logically) that the wind force on a Yagi tubular element was in
line with the wind itself, and that one compensated for the angle of wind on
the element (angle of attack) by using trigonometry  to reduce the effective
area presented to the oncoming wind stream.

     However, I have since read three of Dick K5IU's various papers
(available through ARRL's QEX/Communications Quarterly) in which he cites
several references on the subject of wind flow over tubular structures.  One
author, Hoerner, explained that the net force of wind blowing across a tube
is normal to the tube, i.e., at right angles to the axis of the tube.  This
is NOT logical but I'll accept it as true.  As I wrote to Dick, this is the
"and then a miracle occurs" part of the explanation.  I'd need to find and
read Hoerner's book to see a presentation of the physics involved here.

     Once you accept the principle of wind force as described (normal to the
tube's axis), then all the trig calculations are easy to understand.  The
net result is that, indeed, the maximum wind force on a Yagi is either
normal to the boom or to the elements, depending on which represents a
greater area, and NOT at some intermediate angle as I had calculated.

     Another point:  The nonsense of multiplying the area of a Yagi element
by 0.67 or 0.6 or anything less than unity (1) to account for its shape is
WRONG!  Dick's article saved me from making that mistake in my tower
calculations.  The correct number (which Dick calls drag coefficient) is 1.2
for long, thin tubes used in Yagi elements.  The drag coefficient for a flat
plate is 2.  Divide these two coefficients and you get 0.6, which might
explain why some folks used this number as a shape factor.

     Another point:  Armed with this new knowledge, I set about to calculate
the wind area of my still-in-the-box Bencher Skyhawk.  I took out the
assembly manual and calculated the exposed area (L X W, no shape factor) for
the boom and each tube of each element.  Guess what?  I calculated nearly
50% greater area FOR THE ELEMENTS ALONE than Bencher advertises for the
entire Antenna.  My figures show 12.2 sqft of element area and 4 sqft of
boom, whereas Bencher specs the Skyhawk at 8.5 sqft.

     I sent Bencher an e-mail last week asking them to verify my figures.
No reply as of this evening.

     A final point:  If you blindly point your mast to due north (please
don't start!) and attach all your long-boom Yagis from the same side of the
tower, you're unbalancing the torque on your tower system.  Dick wrote a
couple of papers on aerodynamic balancing of antennas to minimize tower
torque.  I'm now going to mount my four antennas (Skyhawk, 2M Yagi (23 foot
boom), D40 rotatable dipole, and triband V/UHF vertical) on the mast on
alternating sides, depending on how the math shakes out.  No point in
deliberately putting unnecessary stress in your tower system, if it can be
avoided simply.

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
P.S.  I'd advise you actually to calculate the area of your antennas, and
NOT rely on manufacturers' specs (Unless you know how they came up with the
numbers.  And I apologize for starting another re-thread.)  If you're
contemplating the purchase of an antenna, maybe the manufacturer will
sell/give you a manual for this purpose.  (But then again, maybe not.)


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From n9iww2@verizon.net  Thu Jun  7 06:18:04 2001
From: n9iww2@verizon.net (Kevin Adam, Webz By design)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 00:18:04 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy wire resonance
In-Reply-To: <qudshtoa3mob8kc80mik46bgrla36sn4o1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <000001c0ef11$3bdfa950$13a60304@n9iww>

Have you checked out fiber glass rod I got mine for .38 cents per foot
at polygon company in Walkerton in. then you use the big grips for the
5/16 ehs ends this way was a lot less then buying all insulators and
clamps that I needed to make it go together.
http://www.polygoncompany.com you get 5000 feet for less than 2300.00
dollars ours cost us 1900 but we went in as group and bought it that way
because min is 5000 foot min order.
More you buy less is the cost.


N9IWW
Kevin Adam
1239 W. Till Rd.
Fort Wayne IN. 46825
219-490-7312
http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
n9iww@mail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bill Turner W7TI
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 9:03 AM
To: Mike Gilmer - N2MG
Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Guy wire resonance

On 6 Jun 2001 06:07:39 -0700, Mike Gilmer - N2MG wrote:

>
>************EHS
>
>1/4" EHS    $0.189/ft
>502 insul   $5.50
>Big grip    $6.00
>
>(1650ft * $0.189) + (48 * $5.50) + (120 * $6.00)
> = $1296
>
>************Phillystran
>
>6700# Philly   $1.29/ft
>grip           $12.00
>
>(1650ft * $1.29) + (24 * $12.00) 
> = $2416
>
>**************

_________________________________________________________

I've always had self-supporting towers, now I know why!!  :-)

Bill, W7TI

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From ChrisB@prism.co.za  Thu Jun  7 08:44:00 2001
From: ChrisB@prism.co.za (Chris Burger)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:44:00 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] K7GCO's first-order estimate
Message-ID: <C84D1E1984CBD411BCEF00D0B7A7D5C901110266@EXCHANGE>

K7GCO wrote:

> Only with all 5 of these [director parameters] "totally optimized" will
you 
> get a maximum of about 1 dB... [added to the gain of a Yagi for a single
added 
> director]

and

> So you tell me how a guy wire that is not of a resonant or a certain
length, 
> not in the same plane out front and not of the same polarization going to
upset 
> the beams pattern or SWR?

The answer is simple, at least for beam pattern.  As has been mentioned, the
effect of stray guy radiation is mainly to the nulls in the pattern.
Assuming a null of -20 dB relative to the maximum lobe, you need only 1% of
the power reradiated by a guy to upset the pattern.

On the other hand, to add 1 dB to the gain, you need the reflector to add
around 26% to total radiated power in the favoured direction.




Chris R. Burger
ZS6EZ

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From n4zr@contesting.com  Thu Jun  7 08:48:36 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 03:48:36 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn fiber insulators
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010606220726.02384a00@pop3.evertek.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010607034836.00a2c9f0@mail.abs.adelphia.net>

At 10:11 PM 6/6/01 -0500, Jim Rhodes wrote:
>Has anyone out there ever used the rohn 24' fiberglass insulators? If they 
>aren't too expensive (yes I know they are sold by rohn) they look like a 
>good way to get the EHS guys away from the tower. Would be great on my 
>stubby thing, the guys on it now are just EHS with no insulators and they 
>to mess up the wires.

I'm not familiar with Rohn's, but I have 3 21-foot Joslyn versions on my
Rohn 25.  They are really easy to work with, because they have a
clevis-type pin on each end that fit perfectly through the Rohn torque bar
holes.  On the down-guy end I just used a thimble/grip combination to
convert to EHS.  They cost about $50 each new, from US Tower Service in
Frederick, MD.  The Joslyns may be cheaper because I believe they are
designed for power-pole use.  They are very light but are rated at
something like 15K pounds breaking strength

The one trick with these things is getting them home -- they are semi
rigid, and draped over my pickup truck rather artistically with only a
little bit sticking out front and back.

73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From n4kg@juno.com  Thu Jun  7 03:55:49 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 20:55:49 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Earth Anchor
Message-ID: <20010607.062632.-103875.1.N4KG@juno.com>

I can only give you some anecdotal evidence.

My 40 ft tower with TH7 and 55 ft tower with 5L10 / 4L15 / 5L10
are held in place by 48 inch screw anchors with 4 inch plates
in Alabama clay and have survived estimated 90 MPH winds.

My 75 and 80 ft towers are held by 48 inch screw anchors with
6 inch plates.

de  Tom  N4KG

On Wed, 6 Jun 2001  "Michael Bartee" <wt4mb@bellsouth.net> writes:
> Can anyone tell me what the load capability is for a 6" X 48" screw 
> in earth anchor ? I am looking for anchors for a 45' R25G tower and
would 
> prefer not to deal with concrete type anchors if possible. All input
will be 
> helpful.
> 73, Mike.
> 
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
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> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
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From w5kp@swbell.net  Thu Jun  7 12:53:11 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 06:53:11 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn fiber insulators
References: <3.0.6.32.20010607034836.00a2c9f0@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <004101c0ef48$6e5dd1e0$6122c1cf@jkdesktop>

Still, to follow the "non-conducting materials for the first 1/2 wavelength
at the lowest freq" (this rule makes perfect sense to me), one would need
three of these end-to-end on each guy, and at $50 a pop x 2 guys, we're
talking $900 minimum + fittings. Again makes 6 70' lengths of 6700-lb
Phillystran look pretty attractive at about $530 + fittings, doesn't it?
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Smith <n4zr@contesting.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Rohn fiber insulators


> At 10:11 PM 6/6/01 -0500, Jim Rhodes wrote:
> >Has anyone out there ever used the rohn 24' fiberglass insulators? If
they
> >aren't too expensive (yes I know they are sold by rohn) they look like a
> >good way to get the EHS guys away from the tower. Would be great on my
> >stubby thing, the guys on it now are just EHS with no insulators and they
> >to mess up the wires.
>
> I'm not familiar with Rohn's, but I have 3 21-foot Joslyn versions on my
> Rohn 25.  They are really easy to work with, because they have a
> clevis-type pin on each end that fit perfectly through the Rohn torque bar
> holes.  On the down-guy end I just used a thimble/grip combination to
> convert to EHS.  They cost about $50 each new, from US Tower Service in
> Frederick, MD.  The Joslyns may be cheaper because I believe they are
> designed for power-pole use.  They are very light but are rated at
> something like 15K pounds breaking strength
>
> The one trick with these things is getting them home -- they are semi
> rigid, and draped over my pickup truck rather artistically with only a
> little bit sticking out front and back.
>
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> No, no ... that's WEST Virginia
>
>
>
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>
>


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From jskatz@sk.sympatico.ca  Thu Jun  7 13:20:26 2001
From: jskatz@sk.sympatico.ca (Sylvan Katz)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 06:20:26 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux
References: <001c01c0ef00$aa766c20$6276fc3f@spelunk.sueno>
Message-ID: <00ca01c0ef4c$3c2933a0$9eac0a0a@selfsimilar>

Eugene

Your posting is extremely interesting. I have two questions:

>      However, I have since read three of Dick K5IU's various papers
> (available through ARRL's QEX/Communications Quarterly) in which he cites

(1) Are these available on the web?

>      Another point:  The nonsense of multiplying the area of a Yagi
element
> by 0.67 or 0.6 or anything less than unity (1) to account for its shape is

(2) Why does footnote 8 in the UBC Table 16-H --Pressure Coefficients (C q )
states "Factors for cylindrical elements are two-thirds of those for flat or
angular elements"

You note is timely as I am diligently working on a mast design for some
Force 12 antennas.

.. sylvan

----------------
Sylvan Katz
VE5ZX & G0TZX
Saskatoon, SK


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From n4zr@contesting.com  Thu Jun  7 13:24:29 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 08:24:29 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn fiber insulators
In-Reply-To: <004101c0ef48$6e5dd1e0$6122c1cf@jkdesktop>
References: <3.0.6.32.20010607034836.00a2c9f0@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010607082429.00a55780@mail.abs.adelphia.net>

At 06:53 AM 6/7/01 -0500, J. Kincade wrote:
>Still, to follow the "non-conducting materials for the first 1/2 wavelength
>at the lowest freq" (this rule makes perfect sense to me), one would need
>three of these end-to-end on each guy, and at $50 a pop x 2 guys, we're
>talking $900 minimum + fittings. Again makes 6 70' lengths of 6700-lb
>Phillystran look pretty attractive at about $530 + fittings, doesn't it?

Sure does, which is why I now am using all-Philly top guys, and moved the
fiberglass insulators down to my middle guy station.  And I got 3
previously-owned 100-foot lengths of 6700 lb. Philly for $75, with potted
ends, which made that look even better.

I would never use more than one of these per guy, and then only if the
nearby antenna was for 20 meters and above.  Not 1/2 wavelength, but at
roughly 45 degrees from the antenna elements no interaction was discernible.

73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Thu Jun  7 14:45:36 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:45:36 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux
Message-ID: <002e01c0ef58$2981b220$9b76fc3f@spelunk.sueno>

Sylvan:

     I had to call ARRL at the number shown on their QEX web page for copies
of DIck's articles.  They cost $3 US each (higher price if you're not an
ARRL member.)  Try www.arrl.org  and wind your way through their
publications pages.

     As far as why the UBC says what it says, I don't have an answer.  But I
can speculate.   My previous post said that Dick's article had drag
coefficients for long tubes and for flat plates:  1.2 and 2.0, respectively.
If you divide 1.2 by 2.0 you come up with 0.6, the ratio of tubular to flat
plate drag coefficients.  Most folks (myself included) had incorrectly used
this ratio as the "shape factor" when calculating wind loading.   The UBC is
not wholly inaccurate though; the factor for tubing IS, in fact, about 2/3
that for flat plates.

     Get copies of Dick's articles:  "Determination of Yagi Wind Loads Using
the 'Cross-Flow Principle' ", by Dick Weber K5IU, Spring, 1993; "Aerodynamic
Balancing: Part
1", Weber, Comm. Quarterly, Summer, 1994; "Aerodynamic Balancing: Part 2",
Weber, Comm Quarterly, Winter, 1995.  They may keep you from putting up a
risky tower system.

73 es GL de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: Sylvan Katz <jskatz@sk.sympatico.ca>
To: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; Tower Talk
<towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Thursday, June 07, 2001 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux


>Eugene
>
>Your posting is extremely interesting. I have two questions:
>
>>      However, I have since read three of Dick K5IU's various papers
>> (available through ARRL's QEX/Communications Quarterly) in which he cites
>
>(1) Are these available on the web?
>
>>      Another point:  The nonsense of multiplying the area of a Yagi
>element
>> by 0.67 or 0.6 or anything less than unity (1) to account for its shape
is
>
>(2) Why does footnote 8 in the UBC Table 16-H --Pressure Coefficients (C
q )
>states "Factors for cylindrical elements are two-thirds of those for flat
or
>angular elements"
>
>You note is timely as I am diligently working on a mast design for some
>Force 12 antennas.
>
>.. sylvan
>
>----------------
>Sylvan Katz
>VE5ZX & G0TZX
>Saskatoon, SK
>


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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Thu Jun  7 14:54:11 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:54:11 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Wind Loading
Message-ID: <004b01c0ef59$57bff6a0$9b76fc3f@spelunk.sueno>

Bob:

     Thanks for your comments.  One thing from among many that I learned
from DIck's articles is this : The figure 2/3 IS WRONG!  NEVER use 2/3 to
calculate ANYTHING regarding wind loading of a tower.  The correct figure,
according to Dick, is ALWAYS greater than 1, unless you're calculating the
force on a short, wide piece of cylinder, like maybe a coax balun at a
feedpoint.  Then Dick cites drag coefficients of less than unity.

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: W5LT@aol.com <W5LT@aol.com>
To: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>
Date: Thursday, June 07, 2001 12:36 AM
Subject: Wind Loading


>Hello:
>I commend you on your efforts to correctly calculate the windloading of
your
>antennas.
>I know Dick personally and agree he has do\ne Hamdom a true service by
>publishig the correct ways to handle these problems.
>
>You have independently verified  the major problem that antenna
manufacturers
>DO NOT properly rate their products in a way that is useful in the users.
>Modern tower specs are based on Projected Area, as you have done. The
antenna
>people like to go with the 2/3 adjustment to PA to make the number look
>smaller for marketing reasons.
>When I first met Dick and presented him with a tower loading problem I was
>wrestling with, the first question he asked was how did I calculate the
>antenna wind load? I gave the correct answer, which apparently much
increased
>my credibility. (I said: absent any other data, I would increase the
>manufacturer's number by 50%).
>Good luck and keep doing the right thing.
>73s
>Bob, W5LT



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From kr7x@gte.net  Thu Jun  7 15:13:10 2001
From: kr7x@gte.net (Hank Lonberg)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 07:13:10 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux
References: <001c01c0ef00$aa766c20$6276fc3f@spelunk.sueno> <00ca01c0ef4c$3c2933a0$9eac0a0a@selfsimilar>
Message-ID: <3B1F8BF6.BBB5AF41@gte.net>

Sylvan:

Reread the footnote again and look at the context in which it is
invoked. It is only for the triangular tower section if they are round
instead of flat plates. Antennas and rotators fall under the catagory of
Tower accessories. then if greater than 2" in diameter the coefficient
is 0.8. If 2" or less then the coefficient is 1.0


Hank / KR7X


Sylvan Katz wrote:
> 
> Eugene
> 
> Your posting is extremely interesting. I have two questions:
> 
> >      However, I have since read three of Dick K5IU's various papers
> > (available through ARRL's QEX/Communications Quarterly) in which he cites
> 
> (1) Are these available on the web?
> 
> >      Another point:  The nonsense of multiplying the area of a Yagi
> element
> > by 0.67 or 0.6 or anything less than unity (1) to account for its shape is
> 
> (2) Why does footnote 8 in the UBC Table 16-H --Pressure Coefficients (C q )
> states "Factors for cylindrical elements are two-thirds of those for flat or
> angular elements"
> 
> You note is timely as I am diligently working on a mast design for some
> Force 12 antennas.
> 
> .. sylvan
> 
> ----------------
> Sylvan Katz
> VE5ZX & G0TZX
> Saskatoon, SK
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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From jskatz@sk.sympatico.ca  Thu Jun  7 15:32:19 2001
From: jskatz@sk.sympatico.ca (Sylvan Katz)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 08:32:19 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux
References: <001c01c0ef00$aa766c20$6276fc3f@spelunk.sueno> <00ca01c0ef4c$3c2933a0$9eac0a0a@selfsimilar> <3B1F8BF6.BBB5AF41@gte.net>
Message-ID: <011b01c0ef5e$a84ce5b0$9eac0a0a@selfsimilar>

Hank

Okay - I have got the context now. Thank you. When you calculate the force
(F = p A) on a cylindrical yagi element or mast where the design pressure p
is given by

p = q Ce Cq  I

and Cq is = 0.8 for a cylindrical element  > 2" do you use the projected
area or effective area (2/3 projected area)?


.. sylvan

----------------
Sylvan Katz
VE5ZX & G0TZX
Saskatoon, SK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hank Lonberg" <kr7x@gte.net>
To: "Sylvan Katz" <jskatz@sk.sympatico.ca>
Cc: "EUGENE SMAR" <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; "Tower Talk"
<towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux


> Sylvan:
>
> Reread the footnote again and look at the context in which it is
> invoked. It is only for the triangular tower section if they are round
> instead of flat plates. Antennas and rotators fall under the catagory of
> Tower accessories. then if greater than 2" in diameter the coefficient
> is 0.8. If 2" or less then the coefficient is 1.0
>
>
> Hank / KR7X



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From millersg@dmapub.dma.org  Thu Jun  7 16:06:57 2001
From: millersg@dmapub.dma.org (Steve Miller)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 11:06:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] Earth Anchor
Message-ID: <200106071506.LAA19509@dmapub.dma.org>


-- 
Steve Miller   N8SM   millersg@dma.org   http://www.dma.org/~millersg

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From millersg@dmapub.dma.org  Thu Jun  7 16:06:10 2001
From: millersg@dmapub.dma.org (Steve Miller)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 11:06:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
Message-ID: <200106071506.LAA19492@dmapub.dma.org>

K7GCO wrote:

<snip>
> RF can bounce off metal 
> objects but unless it bounces back at the "right everything in the right 
> plane", the beams pattern and SWR are virtually unaffected.  When you run 
> these tests with say a 2M beam and scaled guy wires and a tower or in Eznec 
> you will see there has been too much concern for guy wires affect except for 
> what is right under the beam for a 1/2 wave.  The multiple-insulator 
> installation all the way to the ground is mostly just another "TT Band Aid" 
> for a problem not properly addressed like poor feed systems used in beams.  
> Fix the source of the problem first.  Unless Phillistran is used for a 1/2 
> wave from the tower I'd suggest an insulator at the tower, one at 5', one at 
> 15' and one at 30' in metal guys.
<snip>


In some cases, K7GCO is right on the mark.  However depending on the 
installation, there are valid reasons (not "band aids") to use non-
conductive guy wires (or EHS broken up with insulators) for distances 
beyond 1/2 wavelength from the tower.


Case 1: Sidemounted antennas

VSWR and patterns of sidemounted yagis below the top set of guys can be 
altered even with the first 1/2 wavelength being nonconductive.


Case 2: Multi-tower installations

A neighbor had a 18 MHz yagi on a 56 foot freestanding tower that would 
change VSWR when rotated with |Zin| varying up to 25%! The maximum change 
occured when pointing at his big tower located about 100 feet away.  After 
replacing the big tower's EHS guys with Phillystran, the beam's VSWR no 
longer varied as it was rotated.  Guy wires located about 2 wavelengths 
away were causing significant interaction.  I believe there is an upcoming 
article (perhaps in QEX) on the specifics....



Personally, I opted to use fiberglass rod guys (down to ~10 feet above 
ground level) since I will be sidemounting several antennas.  By removing 
conductors that are not part of the antenna, any potential guy interaction 
and reradiation problems are completely avoided.  




-- 
Steve Miller   N8SM   millersg@dma.org   http://www.dma.org/~millersg

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From k2av@contesting.com  Thu Jun  7 16:13:43 2001
From: k2av@contesting.com (Guy Olinger, K2AV)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 11:13:43 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn fiber insulators
References: <3.0.6.32.20010607034836.00a2c9f0@mail.abs.adelphia.net> <3.0.6.32.20010607082429.00a55780@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <003101c0ef64$71622780$0300a8c0@cruncher>

In the modeling for high band beams I have done with induced current on
guy wires, the following combination methods seem to get the most bang
for the buck, varying by what one has to pay for stuff, whether you have
insider/free access. Note that it's the 1/2 wavelength plus metallic
right under the antenna that does the most damage. All metallic right at
tower is insulated at the tower.

Philly for first 33 feet, then unbroken metallic. 45 feet is somewhat
better for 40 meters.
21 ft fiberglass insulator, then 11 foot metallic, then regular
insulator, then unbroken metallic.
three 11 foot metallic sections with insulators, then unbroken metallic.
21 ft fiberglass insulator, then unbroken metallic.
two 11 foot metallic sections with insulators.

First option is a lot of value out of 100' of Philly.
Last two options not much help on 40 meters.

The ARRL published figures for non-resonant sections are ineffective on
metallic guys directly under an antenna, because the current is
unequally induced across it's length, and the current does not
distribute according to the classic halfwave sinusoidal form. The 27
foot length directly under the antenna is PARTICULARLY ineffective on 10
and 15. The only metallic length worthwhile directly under a beam is 3/8
wl, 1/3 wl or less at the highest frequency in use.

73

-----------------

Guy Olinger
Apex, NC, USA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete Smith" <n4zr@contesting.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Rohn fiber insulators


> At 06:53 AM 6/7/01 -0500, J. Kincade wrote:
> >Still, to follow the "non-conducting materials for the first 1/2
wavelength
> >at the lowest freq" (this rule makes perfect sense to me), one would
need
> >three of these end-to-end on each guy, and at $50 a pop x 2 guys,
we're
> >talking $900 minimum + fittings. Again makes 6 70' lengths of 6700-lb
> >Phillystran look pretty attractive at about $530 + fittings, doesn't
it?
>
> Sure does, which is why I now am using all-Philly top guys, and moved
the
> fiberglass insulators down to my middle guy station.  And I got 3
> previously-owned 100-foot lengths of 6700 lb. Philly for $75, with
potted
> ends, which made that look even better.
>
> I would never use more than one of these per guy, and then only if the
> nearby antenna was for 20 meters and above.  Not 1/2 wavelength, but
at
> roughly 45 degrees from the antenna elements no interaction was
discernible.
>
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> No, no ... that's WEST Virginia
>
>
>
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
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> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
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> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>
>



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From k5na@texas.net  Thu Jun  7 16:34:23 2001
From: k5na@texas.net (Richard L. King)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 15:34:23 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy wire resonance
In-Reply-To: <000001c0ef11$3bdfa950$13a60304@n9iww>
References: <qudshtoa3mob8kc80mik46bgrla36sn4o1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010607152807.00acd500@pop.texas.net>

Do not use grips made for EHS on the Polygon fiberglass rod. I don't know 
if this would be a safety hazard or not, but it certainly is not what is 
designed to be used with the rod.

PLP (Preform Line Products) in Cleveland, OH makes GlasGrips that work 
properly. These grips should meet or exceed the breaking force that the rod 
specifications indicate.

I have 6000 feet of polygon rod in the air now and another 4000 feet left 
to install.

73, Richard - K5NA

At 00:18 6/7/01 -0500, Kevin Adam, Webz By design wrote:
>Have you checked out fiber glass rod I got mine for .38 cents per foot
>at polygon company in Walkerton in. then you use the big grips for the
>5/16 ehs ends this way was a lot less then buying all insulators and
>clamps that I needed to make it go together.
>http://www.polygoncompany.com you get 5000 feet for less than 2300.00
>dollars ours cost us 1900 but we went in as group and bought it that way
>because min is 5000 foot min order.
>More you buy less is the cost.
>
>
>N9IWW
>Kevin Adam
>1239 W. Till Rd.
>Fort Wayne IN. 46825
>219-490-7312
>http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
>n9iww@mail.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bill Turner W7TI
>Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 9:03 AM
>To: Mike Gilmer - N2MG
>Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
>Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Guy wire resonance
>
>On 6 Jun 2001 06:07:39 -0700, Mike Gilmer - N2MG wrote:
>
> >
> >************EHS
> >
> >1/4" EHS    $0.189/ft
> >502 insul   $5.50
> >Big grip    $6.00
> >
> >(1650ft * $0.189) + (48 * $5.50) + (120 * $6.00)
> > = $1296
> >
> >************Phillystran
> >
> >6700# Philly   $1.29/ft
> >grip           $12.00
> >
> >(1650ft * $1.29) + (24 * $12.00)
> > = $2416
> >
> >**************
>
>_________________________________________________________
>
>I've always had self-supporting towers, now I know why!!  :-)
>
>Bill, W7TI
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
>Call us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
>to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
>HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
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From agray@voicenet.com  Thu Jun  7 16:39:29 2001
From: agray@voicenet.com (Alan Gray)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 11:39:29 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] F.S. Telrex 20M646 6L 20M Monobander
References: <3.0.6.32.20010607034836.00a2c9f0@mail.abs.adelphia.net> <3.0.6.32.20010607082429.00a55780@mail.abs.adelphia.net> <003101c0ef64$71622780$0300a8c0@cruncher>
Message-ID: <000701c0ef68$0ad5e0c0$603947d1@voicenet.com>

For Sale:  Telrex 20M646 6 Element 20 Meter Monobander. 46' boom. Heavy-duty
version, corona ball element ends, etc. Weighs approx. 200 lbs.

Brand new and unused, still packed in original steel-banded wood crate.
$1000,  F.O.B.18910

Alan, W3BV



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From n4kg@juno.com  Thu Jun  7 14:12:23 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 07:12:23 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
Message-ID: <20010607.095826.-95027.4.N4KG@juno.com>

N4KG comments inserted in text below

On Wed, 6 Jun 2001 K7GCO@aol.com writes:

>    The posts below show the questions that still exist on the need of 
> breaking up guy wires.  
> 
> A single insulator at the tower for all metal guys is a must and 
> will > eliminate RF Spill Over transfer to the guys from the tower and
coax 
> shield.   There can still be RF coupling from the beam to a guy
directly 
> underneath  even with the insulator at the tower and a resonant length
of a guy 
> like an  inverted vee.  I found minimum coupling with the inverted vees
10' 
> or more  below the beam. 

	SNIP
> 
> With a 1/2 wave of Phillistran from the tower down to a metal guy 
> wire, it's  totally out of any field that is of any concern.  Scale
this in 
> Eznec, rotate > the beam (that will take awhile). and see for your
self.
>  
>  Further more beams have a vertical directive pattern that points 
> straight  ahead.  Therefore the pattern component pointing down at guy
wires 
> is greatly  attenuated and any reflected RF is attenuated again back
toward the 
> beam.  
> The higher the gain of the beam the more isolated the beam is from 
> surrounding objects to the side/back and below.  It just doesn't see 
> them.  

OK so far.  

> The multiple-insulator  installation all the way to the ground is 
> mostly just another "TT > Band Aid"  for a problem not properly 
> addressed like poor feed systems used in  beams.  

Here's where we disagree.  What you say is true for Beams
AT THE TOP of the Tower ONLY.  When you side mount other 
antennas lower on the tower, then you need insulators on the
guys that pass close to them (within 1/2 WL) as well.  For 20M,
this means +/- 35 ft of each side mounted antenna.   N4KG

> Fix the source of the problem first.  Unless Phillistran is used for 
> a 1/2 > wave from the tower I'd suggest an insulator at the tower, one
at 
> 5', one at > 15' and one at 30' in metal guys.   

As stated before, my preference is to place the first insulator as close
to the tower as possible, typically 3 to 5 ft, depending if torque arms
are used plus the length of two preformed grips.  This keeps the
resonance
between insulators, through the tower, and directly under the beam
at the top of the tower well above 28 MHz.

Second and third insulators are then spaced 10 to 12 ft for isolation
on the HF bands.  Your 'recommended' 15 ft is VERY close to a 10M
director length...too long for good isolation on 10M.

A real life example of improper top insulator placement was a friend
whose top guys were attached 10 ft below the top of this tower and
the first insulators were 10 ft out from the tower.  His tribander worked
fine on 10 and 20 meters, but he felt "less competitive" on 15M where
the guy wires formed a nice 15M director (10 ft + 10 ft + 1 ft thru the
tower) 0.2 WL below the DE of this tribander.  Keep that first insulator
CLOSE to the tower !   

de Tom  N4KG



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From marc.wullaert3@pandora.be  Thu Jun  7 18:37:17 2001
From: marc.wullaert3@pandora.be (Marc Wullaert)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:37:17 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] I nEED John ON4UN
Message-ID: <00a501c0ef78$812e8f00$ab68e0d5@pandora.be>

Sorry For the bandwidht ,but i know John ON4UN
is in Texas somewhere.He will be at some hamfest this weekend.
I dont know where he staying on this moment ,maybe he give some visit.
If somewhone can find him or could tell me where he is .Please ask him
to send me a email of try to phone me.There is nothing wrong here but 
i want to ask him to buy something at the hamfest.

73
marc on4ma
cellphone : 0476/33.58.70



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From marc.wullaert3@pandora.be  Thu Jun  7 20:16:49 2001
From: marc.wullaert3@pandora.be (Marc Wullaert)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 21:16:49 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] TkS I FOUND JOHN ON4UN !!!!!
Message-ID: <001d01c0ef86$70a82de0$ab68e0d5@pandora.be>

Thanks everybody for the help

I just got John at the phone.

Thanks for the very quick help....



73
marc on4ma



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From Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net  Thu Jun  7 20:46:13 2001
From: Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net (Kevin Hemsley)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 13:46:13 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cable suggestions
Message-ID: <055f01c0ef8a$827f25b0$d5cbe4cc@kevin>

I have a 150' - 175' cable run for HF antennas.  I am looking at either
LMR-400 or LMR-600 cable.  Does anyone have any recommendations for a good
value, low loss cable?

Thanks,
                Kevin
----------------------------------
Kevin Hemsley
Systems Engineer
Microserv Computer Technologies, Inc.
kev@ida.net
KB7TYA




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From k2av@contesting.com  Thu Jun  7 20:48:23 2001
From: k2av@contesting.com (Guy Olinger, K2AV)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 15:48:23 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
References: <20010607.095826.-95027.4.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c0ef8a$d06e78c0$0300a8c0@cruncher>

>>  Further more beams have a vertical directive pattern that points
>> straight  ahead.  Therefore the pattern component pointing down at
guy
>>wires
>> is greatly  attenuated and any reflected RF is attenuated again back
>>toward the
>> beam.
>> The higher the gain of the beam the more isolated the beam is from
>> surrounding objects to the side/back and below.  It just doesn't see
>> them.

>OK so far.

Actually, NOT ok.

The typical image we form in our mind of a beams pattern is a FAR FIELD
pattern, that is to say when we are far enough away from the beam that
the sum of the radiations from the beam to the observer has
significantly converged toward a point source in appearance.

The really destructive interactions are very much in the NEAR FIELD. The
intuitive pattern image does not apply. In order to figure out what is
going on, you have to consider such things as guy wires or any close
metal AS PART OF THE ANTENNA. Rather simple modeling applies well here,
just make sure that the model contains all the metal. None of the issues
that make it tricky are in force. Just a bunch of wires interacting with
each other.

For each individual wire, the model will figure out the interaction with
EVERY OTHER wire and then add up the resultant vectors. Most of the
antenna modelers will either display or report the resultant currents on
each of the wires in the model. That's when you find out a bunch of
NON-INTUITIVE aspects about guy wires underneath a beam.

There is an intuitive way to remember that near field stuff is
different. Ken's idea above incorrectly depended on all of the
interactions between driven element, reflectors and directors having
ALREADY been formed before the guy wire came into play. This obviously
is true in the far field. HOWEVER, energy from the yagi DE is going to
reach the guy wire in roughly the same or less time as it does the other
elements, and CERTAINLY before RE-radiation from the other elements has
reached the guy wire. The guy wire has PRIMARY radiation from the DE and
must be considered as part of the antenna.

Far field considerations are a SUBSET (remnant) of the rules in the near
field. The published ARRL non-resonant lengths were invented without
benefit of computer based complete near field analysis, and have
perpetuated a myth ever since.

73

-----------------

Guy Olinger
Apex, NC, USA




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From K7NV@contesting.com  Thu Jun  7 21:16:41 2001
From: K7NV@contesting.com (Kurt Andress)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 13:16:41 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux
References: <001c01c0ef00$aa766c20$6276fc3f@spelunk.sueno>
Message-ID: <3B1FE129.16317470@contesting.com>

EUGENE SMAR wrote:
> 
> TT:
> 
>      I won't feel offended if you hit "delete" at this point.
> 

>  SNIP

 
>      A final point:  If you blindly point your mast to due north (please
> don't start!) and attach all your long-boom Yagis from the same side of the
> tower, you're unbalancing the torque on your tower system.  Dick wrote a
> couple of papers on aerodynamic balancing of antennas to minimize tower
> torque.  I'm now going to mount my four antennas (Skyhawk, 2M Yagi (23 foot
> boom), D40 rotatable dipole, and triband V/UHF vertical) on the mast on
> alternating sides, depending on how the math shakes out.  No point in
> deliberately putting unnecessary stress in your tower system, if it can be
> avoided simply.
> 

Don't forget to think about what's happening when the antennas are
broadside to the wind.

The common practice of attaching a mast at the center of gravity of the
antenna, is quite convenient for handling the antenna. But, it is really
quite an awful practice, for what happens after we get it installed! 
If the mast is not connected at the physical center of the boom, the boom
will generate torque when exposed to the wind. A small offset could be used
to balance the asymetry of the boom/element mounting hardware, but that is
usually pretty small.

A good example of this is the good old KLM 5 el 20, on a 42' boom. At a
sustained wind speed of about 35 mph (if I remember it correctly), the
antenna torque generated by the placement of the mast equals the stall
torque of a T2X rotator. The "effective moment" type of rating says it
should be ok.

I think this is a significant factor in the number of antenna's eating
rotators in our empirical database. There are some commercially sold
antennas that generate some spectacular torque values.

Now, if you're real clever you can figure out where to point the antenna to
get this torque to cancel out the one caused by the offset mounting of the
antenna to the mast :-)

If you mount the antennas on the mast to mitigate the antenna/mast mount
torque source and don't fix the other probelm, you will still have torque
loads, they'll just happen at other points on the compass.


> 73 de
> Gene Smar  AD3F
> P.S.  I'd advise you actually to calculate the area of your antennas, and
> NOT rely on manufacturers' specs (Unless you know how they came up with the
> numbers.  And I apologize for starting another re-thread.)  If you're
> contemplating the purchase of an antenna, maybe the manufacturer will
> sell/give you a manual for this purpose.  (But then again, maybe not.)
> 

Force 12 ,Hygain ,and Cal-Av tell us enough to use their areas. We should
commend them for doing that! 
We would be doing ourselves a favor by pestering the heck out of the others
to get the info. They might figure out it is easier to just publish figures
we can use. Then everyone will be happy!

-- 
73, Kurt, K7NV 

http://yagistress.freeyellow.com

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From wa9als@starband.net  Thu Jun  7 21:43:31 2001
From: wa9als@starband.net (WA9ALS - John)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 15:43:31 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cable suggestions
References: <055f01c0ef8a$827f25b0$d5cbe4cc@kevin>
Message-ID: <010801c0ef92$8db09ec0$0201a8c0@any>

Times Microwave has a nice online calculator for loss and power at
http://www.timesmicrowave.com/cgi-bin/calculate
Plug in some cables and lengths and then you'll just have to decide how much
loss you can live with.

I purchased LMR-600DB for my 550 ft run from Steve Davis at Davis RF at
http://www.davisrf.com/
Steve was -extremely- helpful.  I'm very satisfied with the product and was
very happy with the service from Davis RF.  I also used some Bury-Flex and
have been very happy with it as well.  Good luck with your project!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 2:46 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cable suggestions


>
> I have a 150' - 175' cable run for HF antennas.  I am looking at either
> LMR-400 or LMR-600 cable.  Does anyone have any recommendations for a good
> value, low loss cable?
>
> Thanks,
>                 Kevin
> ----------------------------------
> Kevin Hemsley
> Systems Engineer
> Microserv Computer Technologies, Inc.
> kev@ida.net
> KB7TYA
>
>
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>


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From qcs0041@lexcominc.net  Thu Jun  7 22:36:02 2001
From: qcs0041@lexcominc.net (M K Miller)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 17:36:02 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cable suggestions
References: <055f01c0ef8a$827f25b0$d5cbe4cc@kevin>
Message-ID: <3B1FF3C2.1E14710C@lexcominc.net>

Kevin,

I have had excellent results with Bury-Flex ( Davis RF ) cable for HF antenna runs up to
300+ feet.  It costs less than LMR and loss figures are quite acceptable for HF use.
It is available from several suppliers.

73,
Kent -K4MK

Kevin Hemsley wrote:

> I have a 150' - 175' cable run for HF antennas.  I am looking at either
> LMR-400 or LMR-600 cable.  Does anyone have any recommendations for a good
> value, low loss cable?
>
> Thanks,
>                 Kevin
> ----------------------------------
> Kevin Hemsley
> Systems Engineer
> Microserv Computer Technologies, Inc.
> kev@ida.net
> KB7TYA
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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From K7GCO@aol.com  Thu Jun  7 23:25:42 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 18:25:42 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
Message-ID: <d3.15dfa664.28515966@aol.com>

Steve: You are absolutely right on your statements below.  I addressed only 
the one beam on top of the tower.  My 5 conditions zero'd in on it although 
it applies to other beams at a distance for reflections--not detuning the 
beam--they are too far away.  My post mainly addressed the free space pattern 
before ground and other reflections.  If I had multiple beams on a tower I'd 
have Phillistran all the way to about 33' of the ground (a 40M ground plane). 
 Other beams on other towers and their free space patterns can be reflected 
by the guys on other towers but they are too far away to affect the SWR.  So 
SWR change is not a complete test. 

It's easy enough to scale a 2M tower with 2M beams on top, guys and feed 100W 
into it and measure the RF on the guys and other guyed towers.  I found out 
what I wanted to know doing this over 40 years ago and verified it in Eznec.

In the interest of saving money with a single beam on top the idea of having 
Phillistran for a 1/2 wave at least and then a 1/4 or 1/2 wave vertical 
eliminates a lot of grips and insulators and makes use of the guy wires as a 
very effective vertical with some directivity affect from the tower.  There 
are patterns of this in one of the QST Handbooks.  A DX station about 25 
years ago sent me data on this also.  It may not be as directive as a 4 
Square but I'm working on that.  It you have space only for 1 tower it beats 
the hell out of a 4 square you don't have.   

Honda has a 4 wheel dune buggy for the back woods that has some interesting 
accessories.  It has a snow plow which I will need in SD, a ground plow and 
rotatiller for a big garden I plan (fresh health food you know) and some 
other aids.  A single blade from the rotatiller would be ideal for digging 
radial trenches.  It's costing me $600/Mo to get my lawn mowed there again 
this spring and I'm looking at lawn mowers I can pull behind the rig also.  
K7GCO

In a message dated 6/7/01 8:10:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
millersg@dmapub.dma.org writes:
<< K7GCO wrote:
 <snip>
 > RF can bounce off metal objects but unless it bounces back at the "right 
everything in the right plane", the beams pattern and SWR are virtually 
unaffected.  When you run these tests with say a 2M beam and scaled guy wires 
and a tower or in Eznec you will see there has been too much concern for guy 
wires affect except for what is right under the beam for a 1/2 wave.  The 
multiple-insulator 
 > installation all the way to the ground is mostly just another "TT Band 
Aid" 
 > for a problem not properly addressed like poor feed systems used in beams. 
 
 > Fix the source of the problem first.  Unless Phillistran is used for a 1/2 
 > wave from the tower I'd suggest an insulator at the tower, one at 5', one 
at 
 > 15' and one at 30' in metal guys. <snip>
 
 In some cases, K7GCO is right on the mark.  However depending on the 
 installation, there are valid reasons (not "band aids") to use non-
 conductive guy wires (or EHS broken up with insulators) for distances 
 beyond 1/2 wavelength from the tower.
 
 Case 1: Sidemounted antennas
 VSWR and patterns of sidemounted yagis below the top set of guys can be 
 altered even with the first 1/2 wavelength being nonconductive.
  
 Case 2: Multi-tower installations 
 A neighbor had a 18 MHz yagi on a 56 foot freestanding tower that would 
 change VSWR when rotated with |Zin| varying up to 25%! The maximum change 
 occured when pointing at his big tower located about 100 feet away.  After 
 replacing the big tower's EHS guys with Phillystran, the beam's VSWR no 
 longer varied as it was rotated.  Guy wires located about 2 wavelengths 
 away were causing significant interaction.  I believe there is an upcoming 
 article (perhaps in QEX) on the specifics....
  
 Personally, I opted to use fiberglass rod guys (down to ~10 feet above 
 ground level) since I will be sidemounting several antennas.  By removing 
 conductors that are not part of the antenna, any potential guy interaction 
 and reradiation problems are completely avoided. -- 
 Steve Miller   N8SM   millersg@dma.org   http://www.dma.org/~millersg
  >>

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From K7GCO@aol.com  Fri Jun  8 00:00:16 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:00:16 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
Message-ID: <cb.11eeb66d.28516180@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/7/01 12:49:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
k2av@contesting.com writes:
 >>  Further more beams have a vertical directive pattern that points
 >> straight  ahead.  Therefore the pattern component pointing down at
      guy wires is greatly  attenuated and any reflected RF is attenuated 
again back
 >>toward the beam. The higher the gain of the beam the more isolated the 
beam 
     is from surrounding objects to the side/back and below.  It just doesn't 
see
 >> them. 
 >OK so far.
 Actually, NOT ok.
 
 The typical image we form in our mind of a beams pattern is a FAR FIELD
 pattern, that is to say when we are far enough away from the beam that
 the sum of the radiations from the beam to the observer has
 significantly converged toward a point source in appearance.
 
 The really destructive interactions are very much in the NEAR FIELD. The
 intuitive pattern image does not apply. In order to figure out what is
 going on, you have to consider such things as guy wires or any close
 metal AS PART OF THE ANTENNA. Rather simple modeling applies well here,
 just make sure that the model contains all the metal. None of the issues
 that make it tricky are in force. Just a bunch of wires interacting with
 each other.
 
 For each individual wire, the model will figure out the interaction with
 EVERY OTHER wire and then add up the resultant vectors. Most of the
 antenna modelers will either display or report the resultant currents on
 each of the wires in the model. That's when you find out a bunch of
 NON-INTUITIVE aspects about guy wires underneath a beam.
 
 There is an intuitive way to remember that near field stuff is
 different. Ken's idea above incorrectly depended on all of the
 interactions between driven element, reflectors and directors having
 ALREADY been formed before the guy wire came into play. This obviously
 is true in the far field. HOWEVER, energy from the yagi DE is going to
 reach the guy wire in roughly the same or less time as it does the other
 elements, and CERTAINLY before RE-radiation from the other elements has
 reached the guy wire. The guy wire has PRIMARY radiation from the DE and
 must be considered as part of the antenna.
 
 Far field considerations are a SUBSET (remnant) of the rules in the near
 field. The published ARRL non-resonant lengths were invented without
 benefit of computer based complete near field analysis, and have
 perpetuated a myth ever since. 
 73 
 Guy Olinger
 Apex, NC, USA
  >>
Guy:  You have some good points but as I suggested in my post -- take a 3 
element and a 11 element 2M beam connected to a MFJ SWR Anlyizer and hold it 
next (really near field) to a variety of metal objects and you will see the 
"extra isolation" the 11 element beam has on the SWR and therefore the free 
space pattern.  Put in a W8JK in Eznec and see how little affect other 
parasitic elements have on it's pattern compared to regular yagis.  Those 2 
elements are "so tightly coupled to each other'' they see far less of other 
parasitic elements-even in it's major lobes.  It literally doesn't see 
anything above or below it.  What I said was not only "intuitive" but based 
on "actual live beam tests and in Eznec".  I suggest you get yourself a 
Palomar RF Current Meter and run some tests.  I assume you have the MFJ.  
"One test is Worth 1000 Opinions"   (Old K7GCO Axiom)   

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From k2av@contesting.com  Fri Jun  8 04:33:37 2001
From: k2av@contesting.com (Guy Olinger, K2AV)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 23:33:37 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
References: <cb.11eeb66d.28516180@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006601c0efcc$17fb83e0$0300a8c0@cruncher>

Ken blends a number of things together in his post. Let's separate them
out:

Proportions are at issue. Most of the time I have seen a tribander and a
two meter 10 element or some such up together, the two meter job has
been five, six, ten feet above the tribander.  This is like 50 or 100
feet separation on HF. The elements near the 2m driven element are
something like ten, twelve inches apart. The interactions  between the
2m elements have the time (space) to form before the tribander below
comes into play. To keep it analogous or proportional with the HF
problem, IF you put that 2m beam inline with the tribander boom, only
five inches above it, you WOULD get notable interaction, because one of
the elements of the tribander is JUST AS TIGHTLY COUPLED into the 2m
beam as its other elements.

In the case of an 8JK, both elements are driven and create PRIMARY areas
of partial cancellation IN THE NEAR FIELD. None such happens with a
yagi. The primary radiation from the driven element is like a dipole.
Only hole is off the ends.

In the case of an HF triband or monoband yagi (what most people on this
reflector are talking about) at the top of a tower with guy wires to
within a few feet of top, the guy wire is right smack in the dense part
of the near field, CAN have significant current on it, CAN distort the
pattern. Put it in the model. It doesn't radiate only when it
serendipitously just happens to balance out by some happy aspect of the
instant orientation of the yagi elements and the length and orientation
of the guy wire. From there rotate the yagi a bit and you're back into
interaction. Or don't rotate it and see how much is radiating off the
other two guys.

On HF that upper guy is just like a snake in your pant leg. Plenty close
enough to cause trouble. Best not ignore it.

73

-----------------

Guy Olinger
Apex, NC, USA

----- Original Message -----
From: <K7GCO@aol.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>; <k2av@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance


> In a message dated 6/7/01 12:49:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> k2av@contesting.com writes:
>  >>  Further more beams have a vertical directive pattern that points
>  >> straight  ahead.  Therefore the pattern component pointing down at
>       guy wires is greatly  attenuated and any reflected RF is
attenuated
> again back
>  >>toward the beam. The higher the gain of the beam the more isolated
the
> beam
>      is from surrounding objects to the side/back and below.  It just
doesn't
> see
>  >> them.
>  >OK so far.
>  Actually, NOT ok.
>
>  The typical image we form in our mind of a beams pattern is a FAR
FIELD
>  pattern, that is to say when we are far enough away from the beam
that
>  the sum of the radiations from the beam to the observer has
>  significantly converged toward a point source in appearance.
>
>  The really destructive interactions are very much in the NEAR FIELD.
The
>  intuitive pattern image does not apply. In order to figure out what
is
>  going on, you have to consider such things as guy wires or any close
>  metal AS PART OF THE ANTENNA. Rather simple modeling applies well
here,
>  just make sure that the model contains all the metal. None of the
issues
>  that make it tricky are in force. Just a bunch of wires interacting
with
>  each other.
>
>  For each individual wire, the model will figure out the interaction
with
>  EVERY OTHER wire and then add up the resultant vectors. Most of the
>  antenna modelers will either display or report the resultant currents
on
>  each of the wires in the model. That's when you find out a bunch of
>  NON-INTUITIVE aspects about guy wires underneath a beam.
>
>  There is an intuitive way to remember that near field stuff is
>  different. Ken's idea above incorrectly depended on all of the
>  interactions between driven element, reflectors and directors having
>  ALREADY been formed before the guy wire came into play. This
obviously
>  is true in the far field. HOWEVER, energy from the yagi DE is going
to
>  reach the guy wire in roughly the same or less time as it does the
other
>  elements, and CERTAINLY before RE-radiation from the other elements
has
>  reached the guy wire. The guy wire has PRIMARY radiation from the DE
and
>  must be considered as part of the antenna.
>
>  Far field considerations are a SUBSET (remnant) of the rules in the
near
>  field. The published ARRL non-resonant lengths were invented without
>  benefit of computer based complete near field analysis, and have
>  perpetuated a myth ever since.
>  73
>  Guy Olinger
>  Apex, NC, USA
>   >>
> Guy:  You have some good points but as I suggested in my post -- take
a 3
> element and a 11 element 2M beam connected to a MFJ SWR Anlyizer and
hold it
> next (really near field) to a variety of metal objects and you will
see the
> "extra isolation" the 11 element beam has on the SWR and therefore the
free
> space pattern.  Put in a W8JK in Eznec and see how little affect other
> parasitic elements have on it's pattern compared to regular yagis.
Those 2
> elements are "so tightly coupled to each other'' they see far less of
other
> parasitic elements-even in it's major lobes.  It literally doesn't see
> anything above or below it.  What I said was not only "intuitive" but
based
> on "actual live beam tests and in Eznec".  I suggest you get yourself
a
> Palomar RF Current Meter and run some tests.  I assume you have the
MFJ.
> "One test is Worth 1000 Opinions"   (Old K7GCO Axiom)
>
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>



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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Fri Jun  8 03:36:16 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:36:16 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux
Message-ID: <00e901c0efd2$668f1e80$a976fc3f@spelunk.sueno>

Kurt:

     With my planned antenna arrays, I won't have appreciable mast torque
caused by  off-center mounting of the boom on the mast.  I'll have a small
V/UHF vertical at the top, a D40 rotatable dipole (same length on either
side of the boom bracket) below that, and the Bencher Skyhawk (purportedly
torque balanced by the element and boom compensator pieces.)  If and when I
install the 2M Yagi (KLM 144-148-13LBA), it will be mounted at the center of
its boom; there's not enough element aluminum to worry about finding the
balance center of the boom.)

     I think what you're cautioning us about is the case where we have large
HF Yagi arrays in which the balance point (and mounting point) of the array
is not the center of the boom.  In these cases, wind blowing broadside to
the boom will want to turn the longer side of the boom away from the wind,
creating torque on the mast/rotator/tower.

     Dick's papers on aerodynamic balancing discuss how to compensate for
such imbalances, e.g., fixing a weight onto the boom so the balance point is
shifted to the center of the boom, or entending the shorter side of the boom
with a piece of aluminum tubing sleeved onto the main boom, or installing
compensators.

     BOTTOM LINE:  You have to do some "cypherin' " before you put up an
antenna/tower system.  Apparently, there's more to ham radio than Ohm's Law.

GL es V=IR de
Gene Smar  AD3F

-----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Andress <K7NV@contesting.com>
To: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>
Cc: Tower Talk <towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Thursday, June 07, 2001 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux


>EUGENE SMAR wrote:
>>
>> TT:
>>
>>      I won't feel offended if you hit "delete" at this point.
>>
>
>>  SNIP
>
>
>>      A final point:  If you blindly point your mast to due north (please
>> don't start!) and attach all your long-boom Yagis from the same side of
the
>> tower, you're unbalancing the torque on your tower system.  Dick wrote a
>> couple of papers on aerodynamic balancing of antennas to minimize tower
>> torque.  I'm now going to mount my four antennas (Skyhawk, 2M Yagi (23
foot
>> boom), D40 rotatable dipole, and triband V/UHF vertical) on the mast on
>> alternating sides, depending on how the math shakes out.  No point in
>> deliberately putting unnecessary stress in your tower system, if it can
be
>> avoided simply.
>>
>
>Don't forget to think about what's happening when the antennas are
>broadside to the wind.
>
>The common practice of attaching a mast at the center of gravity of the
>antenna, is quite convenient for handling the antenna. But, it is really
>quite an awful practice, for what happens after we get it installed!
>If the mast is not connected at the physical center of the boom, the boom
>will generate torque when exposed to the wind. A small offset could be used
>to balance the asymetry of the boom/element mounting hardware, but that is
>usually pretty small.
>
>A good example of this is the good old KLM 5 el 20, on a 42' boom. At a
>sustained wind speed of about 35 mph (if I remember it correctly), the
>antenna torque generated by the placement of the mast equals the stall
>torque of a T2X rotator. The "effective moment" type of rating says it
>should be ok.
>
>I think this is a significant factor in the number of antenna's eating
>rotators in our empirical database. There are some commercially sold
>antennas that generate some spectacular torque values.
>
>Now, if you're real clever you can figure out where to point the antenna to
>get this torque to cancel out the one caused by the offset mounting of the
>antenna to the mast :-)
>
>If you mount the antennas on the mast to mitigate the antenna/mast mount
>torque source and don't fix the other probelm, you will still have torque
>loads, they'll just happen at other points on the compass.
>
>
>> 73 de
>> Gene Smar  AD3F
>> P.S.  I'd advise you actually to calculate the area of your antennas, and
>> NOT rely on manufacturers' specs (Unless you know how they came up with
the
>> numbers.  And I apologize for starting another re-thread.)  If you're
>> contemplating the purchase of an antenna, maybe the manufacturer will
>> sell/give you a manual for this purpose.  (But then again, maybe not.)
>>
>
>Force 12 ,Hygain ,and Cal-Av tell us enough to use their areas. We should
>commend them for doing that!
>We would be doing ourselves a favor by pestering the heck out of the others
>to get the info. They might figure out it is easier to just publish figures
>we can use. Then everyone will be happy!
>
>--
>73, Kurt, K7NV
>
>http://yagistress.freeyellow.com
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
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>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
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>


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From K7NV@contesting.com  Fri Jun  8 09:34:47 2001
From: K7NV@contesting.com (Kurt Andress)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 01:34:47 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux
References: <00e901c0efd2$668f1e80$a976fc3f@spelunk.sueno>
Message-ID: <3B208E27.B77B52F@contesting.com>

EUGENE SMAR wrote:
> 
> Kurt:
> 
>      With my planned antenna arrays, I won't have appreciable mast torque
> caused by  off-center mounting of the boom on the mast.  I'll have a small
> V/UHF vertical at the top, a D40 rotatable dipole (same length on either
> side of the boom bracket) below that, and the Bencher Skyhawk (purportedly
> torque balanced by the element and boom compensator pieces.)  If and when I
> install the 2M Yagi (KLM 144-148-13LBA), it will be mounted at the center of
> its boom; there's not enough element aluminum to worry about finding the
> balance center of the boom.)
> 

Sounds like you have it covered Gene! 
Except, that the mention of element compensators smells like some old world
thought, which would be incorrect in light of the information you have
shared. So, my nature would make me want to know enough to figure out how
the element compensators on that antenna work. I have no direct knowledge
of the Bencher antenna, other than someone suggested that it was designed
with my software, by someone I don't know of, so I'm just another guy
without enough information to understand it. Maybe you can help?

>      I think what you're cautioning us about is the case where we have large
> HF Yagi arrays in which the balance point (and mounting point) of the array
> is not the center of the boom.  In these cases, wind blowing broadside to
> the boom will want to turn the longer side of the boom away from the wind,
> creating torque on the mast/rotator/tower.
> 

Yes, that's right, and it doesn't have to be a "large HF array", just a
really imbalanced one to be a problem. 
The notorious "T2X sticky brake" thing probably has more to do with this
than anything else. I have a perfectly (as good as it gets) balanced (mass
& wind load) antenna on a Ham III that never...EVER...has the braking wedge
fetch up, no matter how hard it is blowing. OTOH, I also have an antenna
that is not perfectly balanced, and it fetches up the T2X wedge about 50%
of the time in just about any wind over 15-20 mph. Call me crazy, but I
think it shouldn't happen.

We all get to decide how important any of this is to us and proceed
accordingly. My point really was that people are buying and having problems
with antennas, that are not properly balanced. 
You introduced this incarnation of the subject, I commented, because I do
not think it is all fixed, by virtue of the fact that you now have some
good reference information. I'm the first one to wish to never comment on
the subject again, three years on this frequency is probably long enough!

>      Dick's papers on aerodynamic balancing discuss how to compensate for
> such imbalances, e.g., fixing a weight onto the boom so the balance point is
> shifted to the center of the boom, or entending the shorter side of the boom
> with a piece of aluminum tubing sleeved onto the main boom, or installing
> compensators.
> 

Yes, this covers it properly, I'm glad you now have it...everyone else go
get one! 

I'll add, there is another version of the sleeved piece on the boom to
compensate. This just uses a boom that is longer than required, but
centered on the mast, that allows the element ensemble to be placed so the
element ensemble CG coincides with the boom center.
It doesn't pass muster, according to our current paradigm of "what an
antenna should look like," but it works just fine. One of my tribanders is
done this way, and it never does the "hula" when it blows (just about every
day). 
Fortunately, it was really easy to do, my neighbors don't know the
difference, and I only had to please myself when I did it. 

My old software release incorporates all that you have recently discovered,
so finding your favorite solution probably doesn't need to take several
weeks to sort out, but that can't be nearly as much fun, and that's why we
really do this.

I just wanted to point out that the other source for antenna torque is
there, as it was not covered in your latest comments on the subject. I
think there are quite a few TT subscribers that do not posess the
information you have been talking about. I apologize if you thought I was
picking on you, that really wouldn't do much for me.

>      BOTTOM LINE:  You have to do some "cypherin' " before you put up an
> antenna/tower system.  Apparently, there's more to ham radio than Ohm's Law.
> 
> GL es V=IR de

F=MC/I, and I am not responsible for "I", it exists on its own merit,
regardless of what I wish it would do! Sometimes, too much E=IR (the other
"I") causes problems with F=MC/I, and the other way around. That pretty
much defines the system design challenge.

It really must be time to talk about "True North" again. I'm sure I'm done.
TT is fortunate to have someone else step up and be willing to beat the
drum!

-- 
Have fun with it, 
Kurt

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From K7GCO@aol.com  Fri Jun  8 11:00:11 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 06:00:11 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux, PP Motors
Message-ID: <113.2f96f.2851fc2b@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/7/01 9:20:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net writes:

<< Kurt:
 
      With my planned antenna arrays, I won't have appreciable mast torque
 caused by  off-center mounting of the boom on the mast.  I'll have a small
 V/UHF vertical at the top, a D40 rotatable dipole (same length on either
 side of the boom bracket) below that, and the Bencher Skyhawk (purportedly
 torque balanced by the element and boom compensator pieces.)  If and when I
 install the 2M Yagi (KLM 144-148-13LBA), it will be mounted at the center of
 its boom; there's not enough element aluminum to worry about finding the
 balance center of the boom.)
 
      I think what you're cautioning us about is the case where we have large
 HF Yagi arrays in which the balance point (and mounting point) of the array
 is not the center of the boom.  In these cases, wind blowing broadside to
 the boom will want to turn the longer side of the boom away from the wind,
 creating torque on the mast/rotator/tower.
 
      Dick's papers on aerodynamic balancing discuss how to compensate for
 such imbalances, e.g., fixing a weight onto the boom so the balance point is
 shifted to the center of the boom, or entending the shorter side of the boom
 with a piece of aluminum tubing sleeved onto the main boom, or installing
 compensators.
 
      BOTTOM LINE:  You have to do some "cypherin' " before you put up an
 antenna/tower system.  Apparently, there's more to ham radio than Ohm's Law.
 
 GL es V=IR de
 Gene Smar  AD3F
  >>
All these factors are certainly important.  However there are ways to avoid 
all this concern and calculations for mechanical and wind unbalance that can 
occur.  Use a Prop Pitch Motor, it's far cheaper and trouble free if properly 
converted and installed.  In over 55 years of spinning many beams, the size 
of the beam and any wind unbalance and other factors have never ever been 
given the slightest consideration. The beam was balanced mechanically and 
that's it--end of story.  I use friction aluminum bearings I make and no 
other "Band Aids."  I've never had a rotator problem except water got in a PP 
once and rusted some bearings.  I overhauled the bearings and improved the 
rain protection.  All this time I apply power the beams turns each and every 
time at 2-6 rpm depending on the size of the beam.  No other commercial 
rotator user can make that statement.  I use other rotators all speeded up 
(even the small TV rotators) and just never overload them.  A fast spinning 
TV antenna is a joy to see.  My rotator budget has been a little over $200 
for PP motors and I just paid an all time high of $50 for a medium PP motor.  
It was a mechanical joy converting one again after 55 years.  I have 
purchased 4 of the typical $120 rotators at flee markets for a total of $120. 
      

The 3 Big Fears of John Q Ham are:
1. There's a big wind and he worries about all the TT Band Aids not holding 
up 
2. He's running over power and thinks the FCC may be checking power levels
3. His gal friend tells him she missed her period

If you have all 3 on the same night--it's almost unbearable.  (Old K7GCO 
Axiom)
  

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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Fri Jun  8 11:32:37 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:32:37 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
References: <cb.11eeb66d.28516180@aol.com> <006601c0efcc$17fb83e0$0300a8c0@cruncher>
Message-ID: <3B20A9C5.1E0E03F0@gloryroad.net>

What Guy is saying is:

There is a million ways to do it wrong and shoot yourself in the foot.
There are only a few ways to do it right.

Absent any concrete data or analysis proving you've done it right with
gobs of wires having multiple possible resonances, go for non-resonant
guys.
Unsupported testimonials just don't hack it.

Of course some people don't care and are happy no matter what they
have.....
For them, I prescribe G5RV's or verticals without radials.

73 de Brian/K3KO

"Guy Olinger, K2AV" wrote:
> 
> Ken blends a number of things together in his post. Let's separate them
> out:
> 
> Proportions are at issue. Most of the time I have seen a tribander and a
> two meter 10 element or some such up together, the two meter job has
> been five, six, ten feet above the tribander.  This is like 50 or 100
> feet separation on HF. The elements near the 2m driven element are
> something like ten, twelve inches apart. The interactions  between the
> 2m elements have the time (space) to form before the tribander below
> comes into play. To keep it analogous or proportional with the HF
> problem, IF you put that 2m beam inline with the tribander boom, only
> five inches above it, you WOULD get notable interaction, because one of
> the elements of the tribander is JUST AS TIGHTLY COUPLED into the 2m
> beam as its other elements.
> 
> In the case of an 8JK, both elements are driven and create PRIMARY areas
> of partial cancellation IN THE NEAR FIELD. None such happens with a
> yagi. The primary radiation from the driven element is like a dipole.
> Only hole is off the ends.
> 
> In the case of an HF triband or monoband yagi (what most people on this
> reflector are talking about) at the top of a tower with guy wires to
> within a few feet of top, the guy wire is right smack in the dense part
> of the near field, CAN have significant current on it, CAN distort the
> pattern. Put it in the model. It doesn't radiate only when it
> serendipitously just happens to balance out by some happy aspect of the
> instant orientation of the yagi elements and the length and orientation
> of the guy wire. From there rotate the yagi a bit and you're back into
> interaction. Or don't rotate it and see how much is radiating off the
> other two guys.
> 
> On HF that upper guy is just like a snake in your pant leg. Plenty close
> enough to cause trouble. Best not ignore it.
> 
> 73
> 
> -----------------
> 
> Guy Olinger
> Apex, NC, USA
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <K7GCO@aol.com>
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>; <k2av@contesting.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 7:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
> 
> > In a message dated 6/7/01 12:49:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > k2av@contesting.com writes:
> >  >>  Further more beams have a vertical directive pattern that points
> >  >> straight  ahead.  Therefore the pattern component pointing down at
> >       guy wires is greatly  attenuated and any reflected RF is
> attenuated
> > again back
> >  >>toward the beam. The higher the gain of the beam the more isolated
> the
> > beam
> >      is from surrounding objects to the side/back and below.  It just
> doesn't
> > see
> >  >> them.
> >  >OK so far.
> >  Actually, NOT ok.
> >
> >  The typical image we form in our mind of a beams pattern is a FAR
> FIELD
> >  pattern, that is to say when we are far enough away from the beam
> that
> >  the sum of the radiations from the beam to the observer has
> >  significantly converged toward a point source in appearance.
> >
> >  The really destructive interactions are very much in the NEAR FIELD.
> The
> >  intuitive pattern image does not apply. In order to figure out what
> is
> >  going on, you have to consider such things as guy wires or any close
> >  metal AS PART OF THE ANTENNA. Rather simple modeling applies well
> here,
> >  just make sure that the model contains all the metal. None of the
> issues
> >  that make it tricky are in force. Just a bunch of wires interacting
> with
> >  each other.
> >
> >  For each individual wire, the model will figure out the interaction
> with
> >  EVERY OTHER wire and then add up the resultant vectors. Most of the
> >  antenna modelers will either display or report the resultant currents
> on
> >  each of the wires in the model. That's when you find out a bunch of
> >  NON-INTUITIVE aspects about guy wires underneath a beam.
> >
> >  There is an intuitive way to remember that near field stuff is
> >  different. Ken's idea above incorrectly depended on all of the
> >  interactions between driven element, reflectors and directors having
> >  ALREADY been formed before the guy wire came into play. This
> obviously
> >  is true in the far field. HOWEVER, energy from the yagi DE is going
> to
> >  reach the guy wire in roughly the same or less time as it does the
> other
> >  elements, and CERTAINLY before RE-radiation from the other elements
> has
> >  reached the guy wire. The guy wire has PRIMARY radiation from the DE
> and
> >  must be considered as part of the antenna.
> >
> >  Far field considerations are a SUBSET (remnant) of the rules in the
> near
> >  field. The published ARRL non-resonant lengths were invented without
> >  benefit of computer based complete near field analysis, and have
> >  perpetuated a myth ever since.
> >  73
> >  Guy Olinger
> >  Apex, NC, USA
> >   >>
> > Guy:  You have some good points but as I suggested in my post -- take
> a 3
> > element and a 11 element 2M beam connected to a MFJ SWR Anlyizer and
> hold it
> > next (really near field) to a variety of metal objects and you will
> see the
> > "extra isolation" the 11 element beam has on the SWR and therefore the
> free
> > space pattern.  Put in a W8JK in Eznec and see how little affect other
> > parasitic elements have on it's pattern compared to regular yagis.
> Those 2
> > elements are "so tightly coupled to each other'' they see far less of
> other
> > parasitic elements-even in it's major lobes.  It literally doesn't see
> > anything above or below it.  What I said was not only "intuitive" but
> based
> > on "actual live beam tests and in Eznec".  I suggest you get yourself
> a
> > Palomar RF Current Meter and run some tests.  I assume you have the
> MFJ.
> > "One test is Worth 1000 Opinions"   (Old K7GCO Axiom)
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
> Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
> up to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
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From w5kp@swbell.net  Fri Jun  8 12:10:03 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 06:10:03 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux
References: <00e901c0efd2$668f1e80$a976fc3f@spelunk.sueno>
Message-ID: <000701c0f00b$9274ab80$ee20c1cf@jkdesktop>

Why not just turn the array so the short side of the boom is pointed into
the prevailing wind?
Jerry W5KP

>
>      I think what you're cautioning us about is the case where we have
large
> HF Yagi arrays in which the balance point (and mounting point) of the
array
> is not the center of the boom.  In these cases, wind blowing broadside to
> the boom will want to turn the longer side of the boom away from the wind,
> creating torque on the mast/rotator/tower.
>



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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Fri Jun  8 12:12:23 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 11:12:23 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Quest for better
Message-ID: <3B20B317.C0C34E34@gloryroad.net>

For years I have settled for an 80M dipole 60' up.

My particular interest is to target EU.  According to YT arrival angle
data, most of the action is in the 12 to 20 degree range and also in
the 2 to 8 degree range.  

I've been through a slew of calculations in EZNEC and found it very
difficult to make much improvement using vertical type antennas.  It
appears that over average type ground, one needs at least 3 phased
verticals to equal this crummy dipole.  I guess it is the ground
reflection effect that the dipole benefits from which is hard to
overcome.  It seems that one would be better off trying to raise the
dipole to 100'+ than mess around with vertical arrays.  It appears
that the cost could actually be lower.  Alternatively, a two-wire
horizontal array might be a better bet.  One could almost certainly
pick up 2-3 db even with a sloppy wire implementation.

I really wonder how the 4 sq arrays achieve the benefits guys claim
for them.  Alternatively, the YTAD arrival angles can't be the sole
measure for design.  

On another issue, trying to lower the angle of radiation from a 160M
inverted L.  I did a bunch of sensitivity studies from 40' vertical
wire height to 110' vertical wire heights.  This managed to lower the
lobe only 2 degrees.  Conclusion:  Messing around with the height of
the vertical radiator won't help much.  So what's left?   Here
horizontal wire choices are nil.  

It seems that on these lower frequency bands, one quickly hits a wall
and obtaining significant improvments requires draconian efforts.

Then there is the other solution to stronger signals some guys
employ....

73 de Brian/K3KO

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From K7GCO@aol.com  Fri Jun  8 12:52:53 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 07:52:53 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
Message-ID: <61.edf6986.28521695@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/7/01 8:48:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, n4kg@juno.com 
writes:
<< 4KG comments inserted in text below
 On Wed, 6 Jun 2001 K7GCO@aol.com writes:
  >    The posts below show the questions that still exist on the need of 
 > breaking up guy wires.  A single insulator at the tower for all metal guys 
is a must  
    and will eliminate RF Spill Over transfer to the guys from the tower and
    coax shield.  There can still be RF coupling from the beam to a guy
    directly underneath even with the insulator at the tower and a resonant 
length
    of a guy like an inverted vee.  I found minimum coupling with the 
inverted vees
 > 10' or more below the beam. 
 
    SNIP
 > 
 > With a 1/2 wave of Phillistran from the tower down to a metal guy 
 > wire, it's  totally out of any field that is of any concern.  Scale
 this in 
 > Eznec, rotate > the beam (that will take awhile). and see for your
 self. Further more beams have a vertical directive pattern that points 
 > straight ahead.  Therefore the pattern component pointing down at guy
 wires is greatly attenuated and any reflected RF is attenuated again back
 toward the beam.  
 > The higher the gain of the beam the more isolated the beam is from 
 > surrounding objects to the side/back and below.  It just doesn't see 
 > them.  
 
 OK so far.  
  > The multiple-insulator installation all the way to the ground is 
 > mostly just another "TT Band Aid" for a problem not properly 
 > addressed like poor feed systems used in beams.  
 
 Here's where we disagree.  What you say is true for Beams
 AT THE TOP of the Tower ONLY.  When you side mount other 
 antennas lower on the tower, then you need insulators on the
 guys that pass close to them (within 1/2 WL) as well.  For 20M,
 this means +/- 35 ft of each side mounted antenna.   N4KG
 
 > Fix the source of the problem first.  Unless Phillistran is used for 
 > a 1/2 > wave from the tower I'd suggest an insulator at the tower, one
 at 5', one at > 15' and one at 30' in metal guys.   
 
 As stated before, my preference is to place the first insulator as close
 to the tower as possible, typically 3 to 5 ft, depending if torque arms
 are used plus the length of two preformed grips.  This keeps the
 resonance between insulators, through the tower, and directly under the beam
 at the top of the tower well above 28 MHz.
 
 Second and third insulators are then spaced 10 to 12 ft for isolation
 on the HF bands.  Your 'recommended' 15 ft is VERY close to a 10M
 director length...too long for good isolation on 10M.
 
 A real life example of improper top insulator placement was a friend
 whose top guys were attached 10 ft below the top of this tower and
 the first insulators were 10 ft out from the tower.  His tribander worked
 fine on 10 and 20 meters, but he felt "less competitive" on 15M where
 the guy wires formed a nice 15M director (10 ft + 10 ft + 1 ft thru the
 tower) 0.2 WL below the DE of this tribander.  Keep that first insulator
 CLOSE to the tower !   
 
 de Tom  N4KG
  >>
Tom: Your points are good.  I didn't mention stacked beam as my 5 conditions 
didn't include them and was a simplistic example.  I assumed readers would 
know that stacked beams need a clear shot also.  If I had stacked beams I'd 
have Phiilistran all the way to within 33' of the ground and make 4-wire 40M 
verticals.

I suggested with a single beam on top and in absence of Phillistran for a 1/2 
wave, an insulator at the tower as close as possible, at 5', at 15' and 30'.  
That didn't mean spacing between the insulators --it meant "from the tower".  
So no wire was over 10' long.  No 15' wire was suggested which is close to a 
10M director length.  Even then it would be a ways down.  Try 4 15' lengths 
below a 10M beam in this location and see how much current is on it in the 
screen with the current amplitude turned up max and in the current data. 
Record the pattern and then remove the 4 wires and record the pattern again. 
k7gco  

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From Eric Moore" <emoore@windemullerelectric.com  Fri Jun  8 13:07:01 2001
From: Eric Moore" <emoore@windemullerelectric.com (Eric Moore)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 08:07:01 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Stacked Beams
Message-ID: <027f01c0f013$87ff6340$29000101@windemullerelectric.com>

Hello TT Guru's,

I am the process of redoing the antennas on my tower and was concerned
about interaction between the beams.  My Mast is 10' long 1-1/2" diameter,
mounted in a pointy top Rohn 25G with the Rotor installed in the normal
position (Yeasu G800).  I have about 8.5' of mast to work with.  I have,
starting at the bottom of the mast, and going up:

Mosley TA-34-XL-WARC (21' boom) (10-12-15-17-20Meters)
Cushcraft 13B-2 (Mounted Horizontal) (15' boom) (2 Meters)
Homebrew 15 Element Yagi for 432Mhz (Mount Horizontal) (10' boom)
Top mounted GP-6 2M/440Mhz (10' tall vertical)

I also have a Radio Works Carolina Windom (CW-80) hanging off a piece of 5'
Uni-strut at the point where the pointy top starts it's angle into the mast
pipe.

 Tower is 40' tall if that matters.

My question to the group is what would the best spacing be to minimize
interaction between the beams.  As  you can see, I don't have very much
mast space, but don't really want to go any higher.

Thanks,
Eric
K8CCA




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From w5kp@swbell.net  Fri Jun  8 13:08:24 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 07:08:24 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Masts
Message-ID: <002f01c0f013$b84d6a60$ee20c1cf@jkdesktop>

Another subject for the 45G neophyte here. Local sources not panning out
well on SAE 1026, SAE 1027, or 4130 chromoly, and even if I can get it, they
apparently come in only "random" sizes between 17' and 24'. Therefore, I'm
thinking of the Texas Towers version instead, already galvanized. Problem
is, although TT says these masts are about 87,000 lb test (yield?), the
longer versions only come in thinner walls, namely:

23' .120 wall
21' .180 wall
17' .250 wall

The question: 74' of 45G with C3XLD (9.1 sq ft) at the top, later adding a
short forty (probably EF-240X (4.1 sq ft) at the thrust bearing. Can I use
the 23-footer, or do I have to go shorter to get the thicker wall? And if I
have to go shorter, am I screwed for vertical separation of the antennas?
I'm in an 80 mph zone, I believe, but we recently had some 90+ gusts that
took down a lot of trees around here, although my little 35' 25G and no-name
tribander shook it off no problem. It's happened twice in the last 5 years
here. The 45G is being guyed for Rohn 90 mph specs (using Phillystran +
EHS), plus a little overkill.

Thanks, guys.
Jerry W5KP   Mustang, Oklahoma


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From nb1b@mediaone.net  Fri Jun  8 13:24:13 2001
From: nb1b@mediaone.net (Dennis Egan)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 08:24:13 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cushcraft 15-4CD Antenna
Message-ID: <00fa01c0f015$efef7100$da956041@ne.mediaone.net>

Anyone ever optimized one of these?  Any designs one would like to share?
Or is the Cushcraft design close enough to optimum?

For that matter, I can extend the boom a little- say to 24 ft.  Anyone done
any optimization on one of these on a 24ft boom?

Thanks in advance.

Dennis NB1B



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From nb1b@mediaone.net  Fri Jun  8 13:43:40 2001
From: nb1b@mediaone.net (Dennis Egan)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 08:43:40 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Horizontal Stacking of HF antennas
Message-ID: <015701c0f018$a5865720$da956041@ne.mediaone.net>

I now have two 15-4CD 4 el 15m monobanders available for setup in a Field
Day Style operation.  Unless I can find someone in the NE that is willing to
loan or rent me a trailer mounted 40-50 ft crankup tower, vertical stacking
is out of the question- but horizontal stacking would be possible.

The problem I am having is that I can find little or no information on
horizontal stacking of HF beams.  My experience tells me that:
1. If the two antennas are fed in phase with the centers spaced (???) apart,
and they are both beamed in the same direction, the main lobe should be 3db
louder than one antenna by itself.
2. If the beams are fed in phase and beamed in different directions, each
main lobe would be 3db down from feeding just one antenna, but there would
be two gain peaks in the direction of each antenna.
3. By slightly offsetting the beam path of each antenna, it would probably
be possible to cover over 90deg in any direction with a signal louder than
either beam by itself.

Some of the lingering questions I still have go to the spacing- how far?
What effect does it have?  Is it worthwhile to build a phasing box to adjust
the phase of the feedpoint?  What do I get for the time and effort?  Any one
done any modeling on this?

Any help is appreciated.

Dennis NB1B



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From k4sqr@juno.com  Fri Jun  8 14:46:24 2001
From: k4sqr@juno.com (k4sqr@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 09:46:24 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Stacked Beams
Message-ID: <20010608.094851.-110481.1.K4SQR@juno.com>

Eric, K8CCA;

See the FAQ section at www.hy-gain.com for suggested stacking distances.

GL,

Jim Miller, K4SQR
http://www.comteksystems.com
4-Square Experts, Stack Yagi
& Remote Antenna Switching Systems


On Fri, 8 Jun 2001 08:07:01 -0400 "Eric Moore"
<emoore@windemullerelectric.com> writes:
> Hello TT Guru's,
> 
> I am the process of redoing the antennas on my tower and was 
> concerned
> about interaction between the beams.  My Mast is 10' long 1-1/2" 
> diameter,
> mounted in a pointy top Rohn 25G with the Rotor installed in the 
> normal
> position (Yeasu G800).  I have about 8.5' of mast to work with.  I 
> have,
> starting at the bottom of the mast, and going up:
> 
> Mosley TA-34-XL-WARC (21' boom) (10-12-15-17-20Meters)
> Cushcraft 13B-2 (Mounted Horizontal) (15' boom) (2 Meters)
> Homebrew 15 Element Yagi for 432Mhz (Mount Horizontal) (10' boom)
> Top mounted GP-6 2M/440Mhz (10' tall vertical)
> 
> I also have a Radio Works Carolina Windom (CW-80) hanging off a 
> piece of 5'
> Uni-strut at the point where the pointy top starts it's angle into 
> the mast
> pipe.
> 
>  Tower is 40' tall if that matters.
> 
> My question to the group is what would the best spacing be to 
> minimize
> interaction between the beams.  As  you can see, I don't have very 
> much
> mast space, but don't really want to go any higher.
> 
> Thanks,
> Eric
> K8CCA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
> Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers 
> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
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> 

Jim Miller, K4SQR
http://www.comteksystems.com
4-Square Experts, Stack Yagi
& Remote Antenna Switching Systems

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From W8JI@contesting.com  Fri Jun  8 14:59:07 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 09:59:07 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
In-Reply-To: <20010607.095826.-95027.4.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <200106081301.f58D1V931092@paris.akorn.net>

Some mention has been made of using SWR changes to look for 
interaction. 

By the time you see the slightest SWR change, you could have 
totally "cooked" the antenna's pattern. As ZS6EZ pointed out, it 
only takes a tiny bit of re-radiation to screw up a null. You'd never 
see the effect on SWR, unless you made a drastic change in the 
main lobe of the antenna!  
 
> >  Further more beams have a vertical directive pattern that points 
> > straight  ahead.  Therefore the pattern component pointing down at guy
> wires 
> > is greatly  attenuated and any reflected RF is attenuated again back
> toward the 
> > beam.  
> > The higher the gain of the beam the more isolated the beam is from
> > surrounding objects to the side/back and below.  It just doesn't see
> > them.  
> 
> OK so far. 

That assumes the far field pattern is the same as the nearfield 
pattern. That generally is true ONLY for the null area of the yagi 
antenna a reasonable distance behind the antenna, and directly off 
the element ends a small distance away from the antenna.

Above and below the yagi, broadside to the elements, there is 
considerable energy. That's true even at a fairly large distance.

It only takes a tiny bit of re-radiation (signals don't "bounce", the 
initial radiation causes charges to move and that movement causes 
new radiation) to produce new EM fields that will destroy an 
antenna's pattern. 
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From khopper@uchicago.edu  Fri Jun  8 15:02:11 2001
From: khopper@uchicago.edu (Ken Hopper)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 09:02:11 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] [Q] remote COAX switches?
Message-ID: <3B20DAE3.603C495D@uchicago.edu>

Hi, I am trying to figure out a way to get more coax into the shack (second
floor bedroom). I have never investigated REMOTE COAX SWITCHES but they look
like a possible solution. 

Does anyone have a recommendation or experience with a particular brand?  what
about relay contact burning due to RF? are they reliable? 

mny tnx,
de ken n9vv at n9vv dot com
http://www.n9vv.com

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From k2av@contesting.com  Fri Jun  8 15:00:37 2001
From: k2av@contesting.com (Guy Olinger, K2AV)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 10:00:37 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Quest for better
References: <3B20B317.C0C34E34@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <003601c0f023$6de01ee0$0300a8c0@cruncher>

Try feeding that 160 meter inverted el at the end (hi-Z) against ground
on eighty meters. Avoids a lot of the 1/4 wave conundrums and has a
pattern much like a hemisphere.  I used up 63 feet and out 70 feet with
good luck on 80 meters. Since you have to use a tuner/matching
arrangement of some kind any way, it covers the entire 80/75 band. The
high current is up there around the bend.

Put it on a model and see how it compares to a 60' inverted vee at a
takeoff of 5 & 10 degrees.

Sounds like you have both of them up there. You could do some a/b
comparisons on 80 meter DX.

73
-----------------

Guy Olinger
Apex, NC, USA

----- Original Message -----
From: "alsopb" <alsopb@gloryroad.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 7:12 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Quest for better


> For years I have settled for an 80M dipole 60' up.
>
> My particular interest is to target EU.  According to YT arrival angle
> data, most of the action is in the 12 to 20 degree range and also in
> the 2 to 8 degree range.
>
> I've been through a slew of calculations in EZNEC and found it very
> difficult to make much improvement using vertical type antennas.  It
> appears that over average type ground, one needs at least 3 phased
> verticals to equal this crummy dipole.  I guess it is the ground
> reflection effect that the dipole benefits from which is hard to
> overcome.  It seems that one would be better off trying to raise the
> dipole to 100'+ than mess around with vertical arrays.  It appears
> that the cost could actually be lower.  Alternatively, a two-wire
> horizontal array might be a better bet.  One could almost certainly
> pick up 2-3 db even with a sloppy wire implementation.
>
> I really wonder how the 4 sq arrays achieve the benefits guys claim
> for them.  Alternatively, the YTAD arrival angles can't be the sole
> measure for design.
>
> On another issue, trying to lower the angle of radiation from a 160M
> inverted L.  I did a bunch of sensitivity studies from 40' vertical
> wire height to 110' vertical wire heights.  This managed to lower the
> lobe only 2 degrees.  Conclusion:  Messing around with the height of
> the vertical radiator won't help much.  So what's left?   Here
> horizontal wire choices are nil.
>
> It seems that on these lower frequency bands, one quickly hits a wall
> and obtaining significant improvments requires draconian efforts.
>
> Then there is the other solution to stronger signals some guys
> employ....
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>



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From MWapner@Vetronix.com  Fri Jun  8 15:31:23 2001
From: MWapner@Vetronix.com (Mike Wapner)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 07:31:23 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] 70' Motorized Tower
Message-ID: <11CA8AEBA4D7D0119FFF00805F29965D020796E1@EXCHANGE_NT1>

WTB immediately, 70' motorized crank-up.  Tri-Ex LM470 series, US Towers
HDX-572MDPL or equivalent.  Also need thrust bearing, mast, rotor and 175'
rotor cable and coax.  I will pick-up within 1000 mile radius.  Please
respond to Mike - K6QD - Santa Barbara, CA.  (805) 964-7420 (res.) or (805)
966-2000 X3230 (bus.)  Thanks & 73.

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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Fri Jun  8 15:38:56 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 10:38:56 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux
Message-ID: <000c01c0f028$c2a18fe0$bdb6ffd1@spelunk.sueno>

Jerry:

     My design approach for my tower system is to make sure I don't have to
babysit the thing, keeping it pointed in the "right" direction, when the
wind is howling outside.  If you select  your materials properly, and
install them with forethought to minimizing stresses, you'll sleep better on
those windy nights.  In other words, do your cypherin' (I like that term.
Thanks, Jethro.)

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: J. Kincade <w5kp@swbell.net>
To: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; Kurt Andress
<K7NV@contesting.com>
Cc: Tower Talk <towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Friday, June 08, 2001 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux


>Why not just turn the array so the short side of the boom is pointed into
>the prevailing wind?
>Jerry W5KP
>
>>
>>      I think what you're cautioning us about is the case where we have
>large
>> HF Yagi arrays in which the balance point (and mounting point) of the
>array
>> is not the center of the boom.  In these cases, wind blowing broadside to
>> the boom will want to turn the longer side of the boom away from the
wind,
>> creating torque on the mast/rotator/tower.
>>
>
>


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From utahfolk@xmission.com  Thu Jun  7 14:39:01 2001
From: utahfolk@xmission.com (utahfolk)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:39:01 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Minature Fiberglass Towers ...
Message-ID: <003001c0ef57$371fd480$f70346a6@davef>

Well, kinda pushin it I know, but we have a problem that we cannot solve
and
am hoping someone can advise the simple solution we have not been able to
find.   We have a telescoping fiberglass pole, three sections, extends to
about
30 feet, bought from Antennas West years ago.  They have worked very
well for many field expeditions.   Now on the last one testing NVIS ants we
put one pole up 15 feet for an apex mount for dipoles and now cannot get
it to release.  You extend the section to the position you want, then twist
(either CW or CCW!!!!) and it will lock.  We cannot now get one section
unlocked and don't know which way to turn because it locks from the
neutral position in either direction ... so twisting CCW, for example,
may well be tightening it even more ... we have tried everything we know
to break this thing loose .... any solutions other than chain saws and
dynamite?   Thanks for the assistance .... de Dave @ kd7aee



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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Fri Jun  8 15:59:01 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 10:59:01 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux, PP Motors
Message-ID: <002301c0f02b$909c5b80$bdb6ffd1@spelunk.sueno>

Ken:

     Thanks for your note.  I agree that a BIG rotator can withstand and
survive many of the overloads that torque imbalances can place on it.  I'm
not familiar with PP rotators, but I'll take your word on their robustness.

     BUT, if the rotator survives, that means that the torque has to go
somewhere else.  That's the tower itself.  NOW I have the problem of
ensuring that my guys are strong enough, the tower material is beefy enough,
etc., etc., ad nauseum.  All this co$t$.  I'd rather not have those
headaches.

     As I've been saying (writing), do your math, move things around on the
proper size mast, and sleep soundly each night.

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: K7GCO@aol.com <K7GCO@aol.com>
To: towertalk@contesting.com <towertalk@contesting.com>;
SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>
Date: Friday, June 08, 2001 6:52 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux, PP Motors


>In a message dated 6/7/01 9:20:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net writes:
>
><< Kurt:
>
>      With my planned antenna arrays, I won't have appreciable mast torque
> caused by  off-center mounting of the boom on the mast.  I'll have a small
> V/UHF vertical at the top, a D40 rotatable dipole (same length on either
> side of the boom bracket) below that, and the Bencher Skyhawk (purportedly
> torque balanced by the element and boom compensator pieces.)  If and when
I
> install the 2M Yagi (KLM 144-148-13LBA), it will be mounted at the center
of
> its boom; there's not enough element aluminum to worry about finding the
> balance center of the boom.)
>
>      I think what you're cautioning us about is the case where we have
large
> HF Yagi arrays in which the balance point (and mounting point) of the
array
> is not the center of the boom.  In these cases, wind blowing broadside to
> the boom will want to turn the longer side of the boom away from the wind,
> creating torque on the mast/rotator/tower.
>
>      Dick's papers on aerodynamic balancing discuss how to compensate for
> such imbalances, e.g., fixing a weight onto the boom so the balance point
is
> shifted to the center of the boom, or entending the shorter side of the
boom
> with a piece of aluminum tubing sleeved onto the main boom, or installing
> compensators.
>
>      BOTTOM LINE:  You have to do some "cypherin' " before you put up an
> antenna/tower system.  Apparently, there's more to ham radio than Ohm's
Law.
>
> GL es V=IR de
> Gene Smar  AD3F
>  >>
>All these factors are certainly important.  However there are ways to avoid
>all this concern and calculations for mechanical and wind unbalance that
can
>occur.  Use a Prop Pitch Motor, it's far cheaper and trouble free if
properly
>converted and installed.  In over 55 years of spinning many beams, the size
>of the beam and any wind unbalance and other factors have never ever been
>given the slightest consideration. The beam was balanced mechanically and
>that's it--end of story.  I use friction aluminum bearings I make and no
>other "Band Aids."  I've never had a rotator problem except water got in a
PP
>once and rusted some bearings.  I overhauled the bearings and improved the
>rain protection.  All this time I apply power the beams turns each and
every
>time at 2-6 rpm depending on the size of the beam.  No other commercial
>rotator user can make that statement.  I use other rotators all speeded up
>(even the small TV rotators) and just never overload them.  A fast spinning
>TV antenna is a joy to see.  My rotator budget has been a little over $200
>for PP motors and I just paid an all time high of $50 for a medium PP
motor.
>It was a mechanical joy converting one again after 55 years.  I have
>purchased 4 of the typical $120 rotators at flee markets for a total of
$120.
>
>
>The 3 Big Fears of John Q Ham are:
>1. There's a big wind and he worries about all the TT Band Aids not holding
>up
>2. He's running over power and thinks the FCC may be checking power levels
>3. His gal friend tells him she missed her period
>
>If you have all 3 on the same night--it's almost unbearable.  (Old K7GCO
>Axiom)
>
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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>


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From mel@interlink.net  Fri Jun  8 16:13:49 2001
From: mel@interlink.net (Mel Martin)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 11:13:49 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Stacking the HyGain 105/155/205CA
Message-ID: <3B20EBAD.8256EF2B@interlink.net>

HAs anyone actually modeled this stack? I have these antennas in the
basement for years, but never installed them because of the
complications of stacking them. I'm just wondering how there performance
would compare with the newer interlaced designs. On the one hand, I
already have the HyGains, on the other, 2 dimensions is easier to manage
than 3.

BTW, does anyone have a recommendation as to which software I should use
if I wanted to learn how to do this myself, without relying on the good
graces of the inhabitants of this reflector....

Please copy me direct, as I subscribe to the digest (talkative lot
here... ;-)

Thanks...

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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Fri Jun  8 16:23:42 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 11:23:42 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux
Message-ID: <003e01c0f02f$03d9abe0$bdb6ffd1@spelunk.sueno>

Kurt:

      I know you weren't picking on me.  I appreciate your contributions to
the topic, both at present and in your previous work.  (Plus your e-mails to
me last year on rotator bearings, etc.)

     Early Bencher literature on their Skyhawk lists the following as
contributing to the design:  Jim Breakall WA3FET, Tim Duffy K3LR, and Bob
Locher W9KNI.  The Skyhawk's non-conducting compensators are mounted near
the 10M 2nd DIR.  The boom compensator apparently offsets the torque
imbalance caused by having more boom on the REFL side of the mast clamp.
The element compensator offsets the imbalance caused by having more element
material on the REFL side of the clamp.  Therefore, the whole array is
mounted at the CG (I presume.  Haven't done the math yet.)

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Andress <K7NV@contesting.com>
To: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>
Cc: Tower Talk <towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Friday, June 08, 2001 4:58 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux


>EUGENE SMAR wrote:
>>
>> Kurt:
>>
>>      With my planned antenna arrays, I won't have appreciable mast torque
>> caused by  off-center mounting of the boom on the mast.  I'll have a
small
>> V/UHF vertical at the top, a D40 rotatable dipole (same length on either
>> side of the boom bracket) below that, and the Bencher Skyhawk
(purportedly
>> torque balanced by the element and boom compensator pieces.)  If and when
I
>> install the 2M Yagi (KLM 144-148-13LBA), it will be mounted at the center
of
>> its boom; there's not enough element aluminum to worry about finding the
>> balance center of the boom.)
>>
>
>Sounds like you have it covered Gene!
>Except, that the mention of element compensators smells like some old world
>thought, which would be incorrect in light of the information you have
>shared. So, my nature would make me want to know enough to figure out how
>the element compensators on that antenna work. I have no direct knowledge
>of the Bencher antenna, other than someone suggested that it was designed
>with my software, by someone I don't know of, so I'm just another guy
>without enough information to understand it. Maybe you can help?
>
>>      I think what you're cautioning us about is the case where we have
large
>> HF Yagi arrays in which the balance point (and mounting point) of the
array
>> is not the center of the boom.  In these cases, wind blowing broadside to
>> the boom will want to turn the longer side of the boom away from the
wind,
>> creating torque on the mast/rotator/tower.
>>
>
>Yes, that's right, and it doesn't have to be a "large HF array", just a
>really imbalanced one to be a problem.
>The notorious "T2X sticky brake" thing probably has more to do with this
>than anything else. I have a perfectly (as good as it gets) balanced (mass
>& wind load) antenna on a Ham III that never...EVER...has the braking wedge
>fetch up, no matter how hard it is blowing. OTOH, I also have an antenna
>that is not perfectly balanced, and it fetches up the T2X wedge about 50%
>of the time in just about any wind over 15-20 mph. Call me crazy, but I
>think it shouldn't happen.
>
>We all get to decide how important any of this is to us and proceed
>accordingly. My point really was that people are buying and having problems
>with antennas, that are not properly balanced.
>You introduced this incarnation of the subject, I commented, because I do
>not think it is all fixed, by virtue of the fact that you now have some
>good reference information. I'm the first one to wish to never comment on
>the subject again, three years on this frequency is probably long enough!
>
>>      Dick's papers on aerodynamic balancing discuss how to compensate for
>> such imbalances, e.g., fixing a weight onto the boom so the balance point
is
>> shifted to the center of the boom, or entending the shorter side of the
boom
>> with a piece of aluminum tubing sleeved onto the main boom, or installing
>> compensators.
>>
>
>Yes, this covers it properly, I'm glad you now have it...everyone else go
>get one!
>
>I'll add, there is another version of the sleeved piece on the boom to
>compensate. This just uses a boom that is longer than required, but
>centered on the mast, that allows the element ensemble to be placed so the
>element ensemble CG coincides with the boom center.
>It doesn't pass muster, according to our current paradigm of "what an
>antenna should look like," but it works just fine. One of my tribanders is
>done this way, and it never does the "hula" when it blows (just about every
>day).
>Fortunately, it was really easy to do, my neighbors don't know the
>difference, and I only had to please myself when I did it.
>
>My old software release incorporates all that you have recently discovered,
>so finding your favorite solution probably doesn't need to take several
>weeks to sort out, but that can't be nearly as much fun, and that's why we
>really do this.
>
>I just wanted to point out that the other source for antenna torque is
>there, as it was not covered in your latest comments on the subject. I
>think there are quite a few TT subscribers that do not posess the
>information you have been talking about. I apologize if you thought I was
>picking on you, that really wouldn't do much for me.
>
>>      BOTTOM LINE:  You have to do some "cypherin' " before you put up an
>> antenna/tower system.  Apparently, there's more to ham radio than Ohm's
Law.
>>
>> GL es V=IR de
>
>F=MC/I, and I am not responsible for "I", it exists on its own merit,
>regardless of what I wish it would do! Sometimes, too much E=IR (the other
>"I") causes problems with F=MC/I, and the other way around. That pretty
>much defines the system design challenge.
>
>It really must be time to talk about "True North" again. I'm sure I'm done.
>TT is fortunate to have someone else step up and be willing to beat the
>drum!
>
>--
>Have fun with it,
>Kurt
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
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>
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From geoiii@kkn.net  Fri Jun  8 16:34:27 2001
From: geoiii@kkn.net (George Fremin III - K5TR)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 08:34:27 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux
In-Reply-To: <3B208E27.B77B52F@contesting.com>; from Kurt Andress on Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:34:47AM -0700
References: <00e901c0efd2$668f1e80$a976fc3f@spelunk.sueno> <3B208E27.B77B52F@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <20010608083427.B29391@loja.kkn.net>

On Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:34:47AM -0700, Kurt Andress wrote:
> 
> Yes, that's right, and it doesn't have to be a "large HF array", just a
> really imbalanced one to be a problem. 
> The notorious "T2X sticky brake" thing probably has more to do with this
> than anything else. I have a perfectly (as good as it gets) balanced (mass
> & wind load) antenna on a Ham III that never...EVER...has the braking wedge
> fetch up, no matter how hard it is blowing. OTOH, I also have an antenna
> that is not perfectly balanced, and it fetches up the T2X wedge about 50%
> of the time in just about any wind over 15-20 mph. Call me crazy, but I
> think it shouldn't happen.
> 

My experiance with the T2X and the Ham III / Ham IV rotators 
leads me to think that if you were to swap out the 
two between your towers you would still have a sticky brake 
on teh T2X.


--
George Fremin III                 
Johnson City, Texas             "Experiment trumps theory." 
K5TR (ex.WB5VZL)                            -- Dave Leeson W6NL
geoiii@kkn.net                             
830-868-2510                      
http://www.kkn.net/~k5tr                   


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From heatwole@clark.net  Fri Jun  8 16:54:04 2001
From: heatwole@clark.net (Nat Heatwole)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 11:54:04 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Possible V***S Alert
Message-ID: <001401c0f033$4161ca20$f101dc0a@direcpc.com>

Be very suspicious of any e-mail received under the name "Nat
Heatwole" for the next few days and don't open ANY of the attachments to
them. These messages DID NOT originate from me and are most likely 
of V***S (Victor India Radio Uniform Sugar) origin. 
    
73, Nat, WZ3AR
<heatwole@clark.net>
Damascus, Maryland


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From w5kp@swbell.net  Fri Jun  8 17:51:00 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 11:51:00 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] [Q] remote COAX switches?
References: <3B20DAE3.603C495D@uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <002b01c0f03b$33ad3560$8d21c1cf@jkdesktop>

Been running Ameritron's little 4-holer (uses the feed coax for control
voltage, so no extra wire to run) for about 4 years at between 200 and 1300
watts, absolutely no problems so far. I like it, it's going up on the 45G to
run the C3XLD, which requires 3 feed lines.
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Hopper <khopper@uchicago.edu>
To: <Towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:02 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] [Q] remote COAX switches?


> Hi, I am trying to figure out a way to get more coax into the shack
(second
> floor bedroom). I have never investigated REMOTE COAX SWITCHES but they
look
> like a possible solution.
>
> Does anyone have a recommendation or experience with a particular brand?
what
> about relay contact burning due to RF? are they reliable?
>
> mny tnx,
> de ken n9vv at n9vv dot com
> http://www.n9vv.com
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
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>


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From w5kp@swbell.net  Fri Jun  8 18:15:58 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 12:15:58 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Masts
References: <89.7c22bc7.28525615@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006101c0f03e$b0493440$8d21c1cf@jkdesktop>

Mark, I cc'd your reply to the list for info. Local supplier here (they have
the special tubing market cornered in the Oklahoma City area) says they are
willing to have their supplier divert my tubing to a galvanizer in Tulsa and
have it hot dipped enroute to them, for a fee. No galvanizers here with a
tank long enough. Don't know what that fee is yet, but I'm pretty sure it
would total up to less than $528! I have asked them to track down and quote
3/16" and 1/4" 4130, and also 1026 or 1027.  They have already quoted 4130
1/4" at $6.75 per foot + shipping and galvanizing, which is fine with me
(depending on the galvanizing cost), but they are still trying to find out
if they can get a specified length (24') rather than taking whatever they
get sent between 17' and 24'.
I agree with you that I should probably go with the 1/4" wall, but
unfortunately that limits me to 17' if I use the Texas Tower stock stuff,
and I'd sure like to have that extra 7 feet, not to stick anything higher in
the air (I'd just add a tower section for that), but to give me 12' inside
the tower and 12' outside, instead of 5' and 12', which I'd guess would be a
bit more stressful on the rotator (Yaesu 1000).
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: <KI7WX@aol.com>
To: <w5kp@swbell.net>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Masts


> Steel tube really can be tough to find.  Here's what I did:
>
> TW Metals is a large metals yard that stocks virtually every type of tube
and plate that one could want (titanium, steel, aluminum, etc).  I may have
the number wrong, but a single stick of 1025/1026 steel tube 2" OD x 0.25"
wall would be about $7 a foot shipped.  This is a wholesale yard so as you
buy more the price drops considerably. They also have 4130 material but I
didn't ask for a price as I didn't need the extra yield strength.  I also
went to 3/8" wall from 0.25" wall because the price difference was minimal
and I figured it couldn't hurt to be thicker.  It was heavy though.
>
> I purchased 3 pieces of steel tube - 24' x 2" x 3/8" wall and the cost was
right around $120 each (about $2 per foot cheaper than buying one piece at a
time). I later sold the remaining two lenghts to other club members at my
cost.  They were happy to get them.
>
> The only problem with this approach is that the tube comes without any
rust protection.  I cold galvanized mine, but have not been particularly
happy with the results.  Any nick on the tube and rust will form rapidly
once it is in the air. At 100 feet up and 15 feet sticking out of the tower
it's not easy to recoat the tube!! If I had to do this again I would start
with a stronger, epoxy type finish like POR 15  http://www.por15.com/  or
even better, find some way to get the tube galvanized from the start.
>
> I'm sure you know that K5RC sells steel tubing as mast material.  Tom's
masts are 4130 material in 3/8" wall and he can get the tube galvanized for
you. http://www.consultpr.com/2inchmast.htm  Price according to his web page
is $22 a foot galvanized.  That's $528 for a 24 foot length which is steep,
but it's a fine mast and you won't have to worry about it.
>
> Depending on where you live I would consider the following:  If you can
find a local galvanizer then order up several lengths of 24 foot tube in
whatever wall thickness you want from a place like TW Metals and then have
them galvanized.  If there are other hams in the area get some folks to go
in with you and the costs will go down for everyone.  If this is a one time
event I would just spend the extra cash and just get the long galvanized
tube from Tom and know that you have a very strong tube in the air, or go
with the shorter tube from TexasTowers. I would think you'd want at least 10
feet between your 40M beam and the C3XLD.  The C3XLD is a pretty big antenna
as I recall, so using the .120 or .180 wall stuff probably isn't going to
work. You'd have to do the calculations.  If you ever end up with a bent
mast it'll cost you a lot more than the difference between the TT mast and
the K5RC mast to get the bent one out and replace it.  Bent masts are a
serious pain in the butt !
> to deal with.
>
> If someone has a better idea / source of masting material please pass it
along.
>
> Final thought: don't underestimate the difficulty of moving around a 24
foot long piece of steel tubing. It's long and heavy. If you have to
transport it around you'll need a truck with a good rack, or some sort of
trailer.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mark
> KI7WX
>
>


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From w4th@webtv.net  Fri Jun  8 20:41:48 2001
From: w4th@webtv.net (Tom Hix W4TH)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 14:41:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna tuner
Message-ID: <15016-3B212A7C-294@storefull-106.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

The finest antenna tuner made today? Maybe...check it out.
http://www.tomstubes.com

===================================
Be sure to visit my web sites. 
Tom's Tubes. We now carry the finest antenna tuner and antenna switches
ever made....BAR NONE!
http://www.tomstubes.com

Ham Radio Homepage.
http://www.geocities.com/bamagramps/


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From K7GCO@aol.com  Fri Jun  8 22:10:48 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 17:10:48 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux, PP Motors
Message-ID: <28.1686c3c2.28529958@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/8/01 7:58:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net writes:

<< Ken:
 
      Thanks for your note.  I agree that a BIG rotator can withstand and
 survive many of the overloads that torque imbalances can place on it.  I'm
 not familiar with PP rotators, but I'll take your word on their robustness.
 
      BUT, if the rotator survives, that means that the torque has to go
 somewhere else.  That's the tower itself.  NOW I have the problem of
 ensuring that my guys are strong enough, the tower material is beefy enough,
 etc., etc., ad nauseum.  All this co$t$.  I'd rather not have those
 headaches.
 
      As I've been saying (writing), do your math, move things around on the
 proper size mast, and sleep soundly each night.
 
 73 de
 Gene Smar  AD3F
 -----Original Message-----
 From: K7GCO@aol.com <K7GCO@aol.com>
 To: towertalk@contesting.com <towertalk@contesting.com>;
 SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>
 Date: Friday, June 08, 2001 6:52 AM
 Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux, PP Motors
  >>
Gene: You are right about the wind unbalanced stresses being transferred to 
the tower and guys with any rotator--until it breaks.  It's cheaper in the 
long run to "over design" the tower and guys also.  You make only one 
purchase.  I haven't done one single calculation of wind loads, concrete 
stresses and all that dominates TT although I could have.  I have done this 
from day one way back and have had NO FAILURES of rotators, guys, beams, 
tower, used no TT Band Aids and have spent the least $$$ and maintenance time 
probably of any ham on all this over the years.  I had up a LB quad using the 
.06" aluminum welding wire supplied.  3 years ago we had some ice loading and 
wind here and the wire did stretch some.  Antenna Mart Quads use wire that 
will take ice loads and wind.

K7GCO Rule Of Thumb: 
        "Use 1 to 2 sizes larger rotator, tower and guys etc than what the 
Mfgs
               tell you to use, install it properly and your worries are 
over".  

I also properly beef up the booms and elements in the middle.  I don't use 
boom support cables from the top either as my booms don't need them.  Those 
who follow these practices don't need a Reflector to find solutions to their 
problems--they don't have any.  Constant repairs after every wind storm get 
very costly and sometimes long delays due to winter and even lack of money.  
Those of us on retirement in comes can't afford all this.  Actually no one 
can.  I'd like to start a "Retiree Metamuscil Web Site" stressing the best 
and cheapest way to do our thing in ham radio.  Wealthy spies can look in.   
K7GCO

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From dxdog@rcn.com  Fri Jun  8 22:25:55 2001
From: dxdog@rcn.com (Jerry Keller)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 17:25:55 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tower Wanted
Message-ID: <01db01c0f061$9b28a500$e0613bd0@z7r0l6>

Wanted to Buy:  50' - 60' freestanding crank-up tower (Tri-Ex LM354, USTower
HDX555, or similar), tilt-over fixture a plus, within 500 miles of Phila
(I'm near Phila).... please e-mail Jerry K3MGT with condition, age, price,
location, etc.


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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Fri Jun  8 21:55:24 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 13:55:24 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy wire resonance
References: <200106061421.f56ELVU24758@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <3B213BBB.AB980E36@easystreet.com>

Tom Rauch wrote:

> > 1/4" EHS    $0.189/ft
> > 502 insul   $5.50
> > Big grip    $6.00
> > (1650ft * $0.189) + (48 * $5.50) + (120 * $6.00)
> >  = $1296
>
> > EHS costs can go lower as you can shop around: there are various
> > commercial sources and, albeit limited, hamfest-type availability for EHS
> > stuff.  If you're in a hurry, then, well, this is somewhat moot.
>
> As you point out, EHS and the other materials are available for
> much less than in the example above. My last purchase of grips
> was at $1.65 each, my last purchase of 502 insulators at just over
> $2 each.
>
> I would like to use non-metallic guy lines, but the price keeps me
> away!
> 73, Tom W8JI
> W8JI@contesting.com

Tom has found very good prices on guy hardware, indeed!  Better than my costs as a
dealer in most cases.  I suspect the grips he found for $1.65 each are not really "Big
Grips" like Rohn sells but rather the utility version that are a little shorter and MUCH
cheaper, but certainly adequate for ham towers.

I can provide 502 insulators for $5.00 each and GDE-1104 Utility Grips for 1/4" EHS for
$2.70 each.  I would also recommend using End Sleeves (GC-65136) on each guy grip
whether Big Grips or Utility Grips at a cost from me of $1.67 each.  End Sleeves were
not included in either of the above estimates of guy wire costs.

Shipping costs are not included in any of my prices, above.

All of this stuff is on my web page:

http://www.reprise.com/antronics/default.asp

Antronics of Oregon, Inc.
Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com




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From smlx@earthlink.net  Sat Jun  9 04:16:44 2001
From: smlx@earthlink.net (Nancy & Steve Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 20:16:44 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cushcraft vs Force 12 WARC
Message-ID: <l03130307b74744ec5580@[209.179.128.196]>

Comments please on the Cushcraft A3WS with 30m vs the Force 12 WARC 2-2-1.
Interested in gain comparions in actual use and power handling capability.

Thanks & 73, Steve WB6RSE



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From n4kg@juno.com  Fri Jun  8 23:05:21 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 16:05:21 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Quest for better
Message-ID: <20010608.234004.-157905.2.N4KG@juno.com>

>From personal experience with 80M inverted vees and
dipoles, there is a noticable benefit going from 60 to 90
ft for EU / AF.  For the the really long haul, there seems
to be an additional benefit going from 90 to 120 ft or so.
(Wish I had taken my 130 ft towers to 160 ft for 80M :-)
There ARE times when my GP or vertical is better than
the high dipoles, especially to the Arctic / Scandinavian
parts of Europe and also at sunrise to UA0 / JA / HL.

de  Tom  N4KG


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From n4kg@juno.com  Sat Jun  9 06:25:00 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 23:25:00 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cushcraft 15-4CD Antenna
Message-ID: <20010608.234005.-157905.6.N4KG@juno.com>

Optimized for WHAT?  GAIN?  F/B?  F/S?

You can pick up another dB of gain by lengthening the front
director equal to the length of the first director, BUT, you
will need to readjust the Gamma Match.

4L Yagi's are 'weird'.  It is hard to get good F/B without 
funny spacings / tuning.  Gain rises very SLOWLY between
.35 and .65 WL.  Bottom Line: 3L and 5L designs are much
better choices on .35 WL and .75 WL booms respectively.

5L designs can be used on shorter booms, at reduced gain.

de Tom  N4KG

On Fri, 8 Jun 2001 Dennis Egan" <nb1b@mediaone.net> writes:
> Anyone ever optimized one of these?  Any designs one would like to 
> share? Or is the Cushcraft design close enough to optimum?
> 
> For that matter, I can extend the boom a little- say to 24 ft.  
> Anyone done any optimization on one of these on a 24ft boom?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Dennis NB1B
> 
> 
> 
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From K7NV@contesting.com  Sat Jun  9 07:24:09 2001
From: K7NV@contesting.com (Kurt Andress)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 23:24:09 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Reluctant T2X
References: <00e901c0efd2$668f1e80$a976fc3f@spelunk.sueno> <3B208E27.B77B52F@contesting.com> <20010608083427.B29391@loja.kkn.net>
Message-ID: <3B21C109.B472B3D2@contesting.com>

George Fremin III - K5TR wrote:
> 
> My experiance with the T2X and the Ham III / Ham IV rotators
> leads me to think that if you were to swap out the
> two between your towers you would still have a sticky brake
> on teh T2X.
> 

Your probably right George. I think there is plenty of evidence around that
the rotator has a problem with the brake mechanism. I don't think that can
be easily corrected.
The one here is flawless in still air or light breeze, I know the antenna
is not right, which tells me that the T2X would be happier with an antenna
load that is more balanced. 
The next time I have that antenna down, I'll see if I can fix the problem
and find out. 
-- 
73, Kurt

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From davidw@copper.net  Sat Jun  9 12:50:32 2001
From: davidw@copper.net (David J. Windisch)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 07:50:32 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind
Message-ID: <001601c0f0da$63c0f260$14a71cd8@davidw>

Hi, all concerned:

Has anyone attached tell-tales to antenna elements and watched to see how
differently or uniformly they (the tell-tales) react to wind?   Ditto guys
and tower legs.  (Ever watch  all those little flags at a used-car lot?)

Has anyone instrumented guys with strain gauges, to see what happens in the
wind?   Ditto tower legs and antenna elements.

Has anyone applied a measured pull (or push), equal to the antenna mfr's
stated wind load, to the top of his self-supporting tower, noted the
deflection from vertical, and compared it to wind-induced movement?

Is




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From n4kg@juno.com  Sat Jun  9 12:23:33 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 05:23:33 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guy wire resonance
Message-ID: <20010609.062928.-238203.6.N4KG@juno.com>

Sure would be nice if somebody would sell
fiberglass guy rod in less than 5000 ft lengths.

Also, is it really necessary to use 3/8 inch fiberglass rod?
Would 1/4 inch be suitable for towers under 100 ft (120 ft?)
guyed every 30 ft?

Texas Towers are you listening?

Tom  N4KG



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From wa9pam@arrl.net  Sat Jun  9 22:35:54 2001
From: wa9pam@arrl.net (Ronald Anderson)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 14:35:54 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] tower for sale or trade
Message-ID: <NFBBKNCBKLPFKNLGHFKOKEELCEAA.wa9pam@arrl.net>

Have a Spalding (Rohn) BX64 Ft. self supporting tapered tower HD, will sell
or trade for 45G.  Tower has never been installed, is bundled in original
straps.  Will deliver short haul or you pay freight.  If you want to buy
outright
asking $550.00.

Send inquires to: jgl2000usa@netscape.net


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From n4kg@juno.com  Sat Jun  9 16:40:33 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 09:40:33 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Fwd: [dx-list] Hot Weather Antenna Kit
Message-ID: <20010609.151530.-103165.0.N4KG@juno.com>

I am forwarding this interesting idea from 
one of the DX reflectors.  Be careful though,
I understand that wet T shirts don't offer any
uV protection.  Tom  N4KG

In a message dated 6/8/01, tedbjh@juno.com writes:

<< Subj:     [dx-list] Hot Weather Antenna Kit
 Date:  6/8/01 11:10:58 PM Canada Central Standard Time
 From:  tedbjh@juno.com (Ted C Davis)
 To:    dx-list@yahoogroups.com
 
         We live in the Northern part of the Sacramento Valley in
 California. July and August temperatures routinely get up to triple
digit
 numbers with 106,108 even 112 or 116 fairly common. We put on long
sleeve
 shirts when it gets all the way down to 101. For some strange reason
this
 seems to be the time when the local dxers choose to do their most
 extensive antenna work.
         We have devised a manually operated cooling scheme for work on
 the really hot days. The REALLY hot days are when the little local
 lizards turn over on their backs and blow on their feet. Just a few
 essentials are needed. A bucket of cold water or a nearby hose. DON"T
use
 the water out of the hose until it has run for awhile. Wow it can be hot
 as anything! Now an old T shirt and a large sponge the larger the
better.
 And lastly an old baseball cap. Sounds simple right?
          Oh I almost forgot. Also wear a pair of shorts and don't leave
 anything subject to water damage in the pockets. Like your credit cards
 for example. Ok you ready for this?
         First take the T shirt and soak it in cold water. Then put it
on.
 This isn't easy. It's COLD and that wet
 material really clings! Now take the sponge and thoroughly soak it in
 cold water. Get it as saturated as possible. Have the baseball cap in
one
 hand. Put the sponge on top of your head. YOU HEARD ME!
 Place the baseball cap on your head. Be careful and get things all lined
 up. 
         Now your cooling unit is in place. The water in the T shirt will
 evaporate giving a pronounced
 cooling effect to your upper torso. When your head gets too hot just
 reach your hand up to the top of your cap and push down. A word of
 warning here. Too big a push can result in a very large release of water
 which escapes the confines of the cap getting glasses, face, ears and
 other parts wet. Not good when at the fifty foot level on the tower.
Like
 my teachers always said "practice, practice".
         There you have it. An inexpensive, efficient cooling kit
 assembled from readily available parts.
   
 73 and Keep Cool,
                                                                        
 Ted W6BJH         
          >>


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From solitsky@acsu.buffalo.edu  Sat Jun  9 21:46:59 2001
From: solitsky@acsu.buffalo.edu (Scott E. Olitsky)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 16:46:59 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] base hardware for tri-ex lm354, first call or ??? - BUILD YOUR OWN!
References: <004a01c0e896$63fae7a0$7e04fea9@ports1.ri.home.com>
Message-ID: <006001c0f125$8a076bc0$7ff4fea9@hppav>

Think twice, 3 times and a fourth before you deal with them.  If you make
your own production plant, design your own hardware and build the factory
you will get it sooner (as in faster than never).  In addition you will not
have to put up with all the grief and aggrevation.  The list of people
getting lied to and charged keeps getting longer...don't add your name to it
if you can help it.

Scott
AC3A

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Spears" <n1nk@home.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:23 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] base hardware for tri-ex lm354, first call or ???


> I have a line on a used tri-ex lm-354e tower.  I believe that it will
> satisfy my needs so I am now in the detailed planning mode.  permit, xyl
> permission, etc, etc.
>
> I will need the mounting hardware for the base, the part that goes in the
> concrete.  for some reason, folks are reluctant to break up their concrete
> pad to retrieve the mounting hardware for the next fellow.  can't
understand
> why...
>
> is first call the only possible source for this hardware?  they certainly
> list it on their web site at what looks like a fairly reasonable price.
but
> their reputation has taken more hits lately than a first class operation
> should.
>
> suggestions?  maybe have a local shop fab an equivalent?  if this is a
> reasonable approach, what kind of shop do I talk to?
>
> jim
> N1NK
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>


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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Sat Jun  9 23:24:17 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 18:24:17 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna area: specs vs truth
Message-ID: <000501c0f132$ef9bd540$d3b6ffd1@spelunk.sueno>

TT:

     I just calculated the projected area (L x W, no shape factor) of my
Cushcraft D40 rotatable dipole for the new Trylon tower.  Specs say it's 1.3
sqft.  I calculated 3.55 sq ft.  Caveat Amateur!


73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F


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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Sun Jun 10 00:18:20 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 23:18:20 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] copper roofs?
Message-ID: <3B22AEBC.F45E6769@gloryroad.net>

A friend of mine moved into a new qth.  

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) the property has a large
garage/barn type building with a copper roof.  

Crude modeling of it indicated it messed up the pattern of his 40 M
planned beam-- even when it is about as far away as it can be.

Two questions:

How does one model such this large copper roof in antenna modeling
programs?  

Anybody out there do something like put a vertical on top of such a
building ?  My first guess is that it essentially would eliminate
ground losses but beyond that the vertical won't appear to be "over
sea water" because the size of the roof isn't miles across.

Suggestions and insights requested.

73 de Brian/K3KO

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From K4IA@aol.com  Sun Jun 10 00:39:04 2001
From: K4IA@aol.com (K4IA@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 19:39:04 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] copper roofs?
Message-ID: <9a.1571704f.28540d98@aol.com>

I have a tin roof on my house.  I asked a lot of questions like yours and got 
darn few answers.  I think no one really knows.  It definitely isn't "ground" 
and you can't consider the roof a monolith because there are seams.  The 
seams are not electrically bonded and with a little corrosion may act like 
diodes and spin off all sorts of RFI.  Mine don't but it is possible in 
theory.

I think the roof is just a mess -- hard to model and hard to figure.  A roof 
slopes and the antenna may not be in the middle in all four directions.  How 
do you figure all that?  

I mounted a Cushcraft R7000 about five feet above the tin and it worked 
great.  A GAP Titan mounted the same way gave me fits with RFI until I ran 
the feedline straight down to the ground instead of across the roof.  Neither 
antenna has radials and neither was "grounded" to the tin roof.  A ladder 
line fed multiband dipole mounted away from the roof seems to do better than 
either of the verticals ever did.  Can you blame the roof?

I now have a TGM mini beam (quagi) about 15 feet above the roof.  It is 
probably 40 feet in the air and the roof slopes away from the base pretty 
steeply.  It works on 20 and above but I have can't compare it to the same 
antenna mounted in the clear.

I suspect this is like a lot of other antenna questions.  Just put the dang 
thing up and see what happens.  The K4IA antenna axiom is  "Any antenna in 
the air will get more QSOs and work more DX than every antenna on the drawing 
board."

Radio K4IA
Craig Buck
Fredericksburg, Virginia USA
QRP ARCI #2550  FISTS #6702 CC 788
K1 #470
----------------------------------------------
For cheap long distance, 800#s and more
Tune to <A HREF="http://www.ld.net/?bucksavers">http://www.ld.net/?bucksavers
</A>
4.9 cents/min - no monthly fees

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From k1my@qwest.net  Sun Jun 10 01:02:19 2001
From: k1my@qwest.net (Bruce Makas)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 17:02:19 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cinch Jones connectors
Message-ID: <EOEFIGFENHCAGPPJFHAHEEANCFAA.k1my@qwest.net>

I have needs of Cinch Jones connectors for an antenna project that I am
working on but am a little confused by what is available.

Series 300 is the one everyone seems to be looking for but Cinch no longer
makes an 8 pin series 300 version (I wonder why). Ref: www.cinch.com

Cinch does manufacture a 2400 series that seems to be very similar to the
300 series but a little larger. Is that the only difference and if so is it
an appropriate alternative to the 300 series?

I have also run across a Cinch Jones connector B754 (plug) and B764
(socket). Does anyone know what this 8 pin connector is? Will it do the job?

If all else fails, does anyone else make an 8 pin plug/panel mount socket
that is good for our applications? Who stocks them?

Thanks in advance,

Bruce K1MY

Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona


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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Sun Jun 10 02:06:37 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 21:06:37 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna database
Message-ID: <002901c0f149$d0db1820$d3b6ffd1@spelunk.sueno>

TT:

     What do you-all think of this idea?  Among us we probably own every
conceivable Yagi, log-periodic, and other antenna, old and new, HF through
UHF, made of aluminum and presenting appreciable wind area known to hamdom.
Most (some) of us probably still have the assembly/instruction manuals.  How
'bout if one owner of each antenna model volunteers to calculate the area
for the boom, element, mounting plates, etc. for his selected skyhook(s) and
post the figures here on TT?  It took me about half an hour to figger out
the area for my Skyhawk (ten elements plus torque compensators) just by
reading the dimensions off the assembly sheet.  Area = L X diameter for the
exposed surface of each piece of aluminum, simple as that.

     I don't know about you, but I'm getting awfully disgusted finding out
that the antenna area specs in advertisements are appreciably (dangerously?)
lower than when measured or calculated by an owner.  Knowing the raw
physical areas for booms, elements, and apurtenances will give us a better
idea of the loads represented by these beasts.

     I know someone out there (probably from here in the U.S.) will probably
bring up the liability issue, e.g., I bought the antenna based on TT's
figures and it turns out the figures were wrong, etc.  However, let's all
agree that, if we do this, the info is just another set of data points to be
used with other sources of info that we evaluate in making a purchase
decision.

     What do you think?  What's missing?

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F


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From wa2moe@doitnow.com  Sun Jun 10 02:42:58 2001
From: wa2moe@doitnow.com (Stu Greene)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 18:42:58 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
In-Reply-To: <002901c0f149$d0db1820$d3b6ffd1@spelunk.sueno>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609183646.00a99390@127.0.0.1>

At 09:06 PM 6/9/01 -0400, you wrote:

>  Area = L X diameter for the exposed surface of each piece of aluminum, 
> simple as that.



Shouldn't the calculation be L X (Diameter X pi) ?  Or length times 
circumference?

And this doesn't reflect tapering of the elements.


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From n3rr@erols.com  Sun Jun 10 02:13:08 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 02:13:08 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609183646.00a99390@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <003b01c0f14a$834b54c0$4a0c2c42@billspiii>

The formula Gene proposed is not exactly correct, nor does he precisely
state what to do with the taper.

Regarding the formula, Gene's thinking is:  If you think of the wind as
hitting the tube broadside (at 90 Deg to the tube), the exposed surface area
as seen by the wind looks like a rectangle whose length is the length of the
tube and whose height is the full OUTSIDE diameter of the tube.  Hence, L x
Dia.  Unfortunately, it is not that simple.

The tube is a cylinder as seen by the wind, hence the angle that the wind
*hits* the tube, even if it is perpendicular to the tube, hits at 0 Deg on
the centerline and then the angle increases to 90 Deg as the wind hits the
tube away from the centerline (above and below the centerline of the tube
for a horizontal element).  This assumes the wind-front is wider than the
outside diameter of the tube, which is probably a very good assumption.  So,
the surface area exposed to the wind by the tube is not simply L x Dia.
It's the exposed tube length times the integral from 0 to Dia of the surface
area of each tube (Pi x Dia), where Dia is the Outside diameter of the tube.
Gene, this is why the manufacturer's wind area is less than what you
calculated, and theirs is correct.  [If anyone has trouble picturing this,
let me know and I'll try to explain it in more detail.]

But, I question the correctness of adding all of these calculations up and
saying that's the *wind area*.  It certainly is the 1/2 of the *surface
area* if it's done this way, but the wind cannot be simultaneously hitting
the elements at 90 Deg and the boom at 90 Deg, so it should take that into
account by specifying the *larger* of both calculations, but not the sum of
both.

Regarding the taper:  each tube should be calculated separately for the
*exposed* length of the tube *only*.  Remember, some tubes are *inside*
other tubes, causing the taper.

Bill, N3RR


----- Original Message -----
From: Stu Greene <wa2moe@doitnow.com>
To: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 2:42 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area


> At 09:06 PM 6/9/01 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >  Area = L X diameter for the exposed surface of each piece of aluminum,
> > simple as that.
>
>
>
> Shouldn't the calculation be L X (Diameter X pi) ?  Or length times
> circumference?
>
> And this doesn't reflect tapering of the elements.
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>


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From w5kp@swbell.net  Sun Jun 10 03:11:23 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 21:11:23 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609183646.00a99390@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <010e01c0f152$a6c7d420$9d21c1cf@jkdesktop>

Especially it doesn't account for the semi-extreme tapering to a pencil
point on F12's!
73, Jerry

----- Original Message -----
From: Stu Greene <wa2moe@doitnow.com>
To: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area


> At 09:06 PM 6/9/01 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >  Area = L X diameter for the exposed surface of each piece of aluminum,
> > simple as that.
>
>
>
> Shouldn't the calculation be L X (Diameter X pi) ?  Or length times
> circumference?
>
> And this doesn't reflect tapering of the elements.
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>


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From n3rr@erols.com  Sun Jun 10 02:17:26 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 02:17:26 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Slight correction
Message-ID: <004701c0f14b$1ce6c1a0$4a0c2c42@billspiii>

The formula for the wind area should have said:

"the integral from 0 to Dia of 1/2 surface area of each tube (0.5 x Pi x
Dia), where Dia is the Outside diameter of the tube"

This is because only one side of the tube is exposed to the wind at any
time.  I read and re-read my prior posting, sent it, then saw that I left
off the 1/2.


Bill, N3RR


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From w5kp@swbell.net  Sun Jun 10 03:25:27 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 21:25:27 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Force 12 EF-240X
Message-ID: <011a01c0f154$9d9af920$9d21c1cf@jkdesktop>

Does this antenna use a truss for its 24' boom? F12 book is not clear on
this, but does show a photo of an EF-240S (18' boom) without a truss. It
will make a difference in planning where on the mast to put the C3XLD, whose
33' boom is trussed.
Tks,
Jerry W5KP

P.S. It was a pleasure to meet all the folks I ran into at HamCom in Dallas
today. Great fest. Even got an autographed copy of "Array Of Light" from Tom
the F12 man himself, and met several Tower Talkians. Tower hardware was
practically non-existent, but there were at least 25,000 MFJ clocks for sale
to make up for it.


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From Michael Tope" <W4EF@dellroy.com  Sun Jun 10 03:10:43 2001
From: Michael Tope" <W4EF@dellroy.com (Michael Tope)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 19:10:43 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna area: specs vs truth
References: <000501c0f132$ef9bd540$d3b6ffd1@spelunk.sueno>
Message-ID: <030a01c0f152$8e2e86c0$6401a8c0@neptune>

Sounds about right, Gene - 46 feet x ~3/4" avg dia = (46 ft) * (0.75  in) /(12 in/ft) ~ 3 sq ft. 

Mike, W4EF...........

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "EUGENE SMAR" <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>
To: "Tower Talk" <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 3:24 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna area: specs vs truth


> TT:
> 
>      I just calculated the projected area (L x W, no shape factor) of my
> Cushcraft D40 rotatable dipole for the new Trylon tower.  Specs say it's 1.3
> sqft.  I calculated 3.55 sq ft.  Caveat Amateur!
> 
> 
> 73 de
> Gene Smar  AD3F
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> 


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From wa2moe@doitnow.com  Sun Jun 10 03:50:29 2001
From: wa2moe@doitnow.com (Stu Greene)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 19:50:29 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
In-Reply-To: <003b01c0f14a$834b54c0$4a0c2c42@billspiii>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609183646.00a99390@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609193241.00aa9670@127.0.0.1>

At 02:13 AM 6/10/01 +0100, you wrote:
>The formula Gene proposed is not exactly correct, nor does he precisely
>state what to do with the taper.
Following your reasoning, would A = 1/2 [L X (pi X D)]  be close 
enough?  That does not account for taper, but it is half the circumference 
of the element times its length.

You added

>  but the wind cannot be simultaneously hitting the elements at 90 Deg and 
> the boom at 90 Deg, so it should take that into account by specifying the 
> *larger* of both calculations, but not the sum of both

Bill, irrespective of the wind direction which can change momentarily, 
surface area is surface area, so that an accurate measurement should be the 
sum of half the boom area plus half the element area.

I wonder if antenna manufacturers, when calculating wind area and 
advertising it, do it your way or mine or perhaps something a bit more 
arcane.  I'm sure that someone will straighten out the error in my logic.

                                73   Stu


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From Michael Tope" <W4EF@dellroy.com  Sun Jun 10 03:31:51 2001
From: Michael Tope" <W4EF@dellroy.com (Michael Tope)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 19:31:51 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609183646.00a99390@127.0.0.1> <003b01c0f14a$834b54c0$4a0c2c42@billspiii>
Message-ID: <031c01c0f155$81bf83a0$6401a8c0@neptune>

Bill,

Gene specifically said that he was calculating projected area without any shape
factors. The projected surface area at right angles to a cylindrical tube is simply
diameter x length. The effective area is computed by including the drag coefficient
of the object. For a cylinder, the drag coefficient is around 0.6. Thus the effective
area of an antenna with round members is about 40% smaller than the projected 
area (a round tube of length, L and diameter D, is more aerodynamic than a flat 
plate length L and width, D). 

73 de Mike, W4EF....................


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Hider" <n3rr@erols.com>
To: "EUGENE SMAR" <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>; "Stu Greene" <wa2moe@doitnow.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area


> The formula Gene proposed is not exactly correct, nor does he precisely
> state what to do with the taper.
> 
> Regarding the formula, Gene's thinking is:  If you think of the wind as
> hitting the tube broadside (at 90 Deg to the tube), the exposed surface area
> as seen by the wind looks like a rectangle whose length is the length of the
> tube and whose height is the full OUTSIDE diameter of the tube.  Hence, L x
> Dia.  Unfortunately, it is not that simple.
> 
> The tube is a cylinder as seen by the wind, hence the angle that the wind
> *hits* the tube, even if it is perpendicular to the tube, hits at 0 Deg on
> the centerline and then the angle increases to 90 Deg as the wind hits the
> tube away from the centerline (above and below the centerline of the tube
> for a horizontal element).  This assumes the wind-front is wider than the
> outside diameter of the tube, which is probably a very good assumption.  So,
> the surface area exposed to the wind by the tube is not simply L x Dia.
> It's the exposed tube length times the integral from 0 to Dia of the surface
> area of each tube (Pi x Dia), where Dia is the Outside diameter of the tube.
> Gene, this is why the manufacturer's wind area is less than what you
> calculated, and theirs is correct.  [If anyone has trouble picturing this,
> let me know and I'll try to explain it in more detail.]
> 
> But, I question the correctness of adding all of these calculations up and
> saying that's the *wind area*.  It certainly is the 1/2 of the *surface
> area* if it's done this way, but the wind cannot be simultaneously hitting
> the elements at 90 Deg and the boom at 90 Deg, so it should take that into
> account by specifying the *larger* of both calculations, but not the sum of
> both.
> 
> Regarding the taper:  each tube should be calculated separately for the
> *exposed* length of the tube *only*.  Remember, some tubes are *inside*
> other tubes, causing the taper.
> 
> Bill, N3RR
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stu Greene <wa2moe@doitnow.com>
> To: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 2:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
> 
> 
> > At 09:06 PM 6/9/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> > >  Area = L X diameter for the exposed surface of each piece of aluminum,
> > > simple as that.
> >
> >
> >
> > Shouldn't the calculation be L X (Diameter X pi) ?  Or length times
> > circumference?
> >
> > And this doesn't reflect tapering of the elements.
> >
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
> us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
> to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> 


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From n3rr@erols.com  Sun Jun 10 03:11:48 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 03:11:48 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609183646.00a99390@127.0.0.1> <4.3.2.7.2.20010609193241.00aa9670@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <006301c0f152$b4fd8620$4a0c2c42@billspiii>

No Stu, it wouldn't be precise.

It would be the integral, as I stated.

Your formula  would result in a surface area exposed to the wind
much larger than even Gene's calculation (especially, if his is reduced for
1/2 of the tube facing the wind), when in fact, it's actually less.
Take a look at what you said:  0.5 x Pi x D.  Well Pi x 0.5 = approx. 1.55.
If you multiply 1.55 x the diameter times the length, that's *much* more
than Gene's original calculation!!!

It is the Integral over the complete half of the diameter.  Not a simple
calculation - it requires a computer.

As far as taking 1/2 of each of the elements and the boom, it all depends on
your definition of *wind area*.  Just define it, and you're fine.
So, your definition is fine with me, as is mine.  Whatever definition the
mfgr uses, it is Ok with me, as long as we all know what they use.
If you use the larger of the two, that will be larger than the sum of 1/2 of
each, so it's a bit more conservative.  That's why I use it.

Bill


----- Original Message -----
From: Stu Greene <wa2moe@doitnow.com>
To: Bill Hider <n3rr@erols.com>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 3:50 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area


> At 02:13 AM 6/10/01 +0100, you wrote:
> >The formula Gene proposed is not exactly correct, nor does he precisely
> >state what to do with the taper.
> Following your reasoning, would A = 1/2 [L X (pi X D)]  be close
> enough?  That does not account for taper, but it is half the circumference
> of the element times its length.
>
> You added
>
> >  but the wind cannot be simultaneously hitting the elements at 90 Deg
and
> > the boom at 90 Deg, so it should take that into account by specifying
the
> > *larger* of both calculations, but not the sum of both
>
> Bill, irrespective of the wind direction which can change momentarily,
> surface area is surface area, so that an accurate measurement should be
the
> sum of half the boom area plus half the element area.
>
> I wonder if antenna manufacturers, when calculating wind area and
> advertising it, do it your way or mine or perhaps something a bit more
> arcane.  I'm sure that someone will straighten out the error in my logic.
>
>                                 73   Stu
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>


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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Sun Jun 10 04:07:22 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:07:22 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
Message-ID: <008901c0f15b$8e084b00$d3b6ffd1@spelunk.sueno>

Stu:

     The area to which I refer is the area of the cylindrical shape of a
tubular element/boom as seen in shadow behind the element/boom.  This is the
area used in all wind force studies I've read over the past couple of weeks,
including those by Dick Weber, K5IU.  The area to which you refer is the
surface area of the entire element, the area of material, as it were, needed
to fabricate the element.  This area is NOT used in the computation of wind
force.

     The tapering of elements would be accounted for by measuring the length
and diameter of each taper segment as above and adding them together.

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: Stu Greene <wa2moe@doitnow.com>
To: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; towertalk@contesting.com
<towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Saturday, June 09, 2001 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area


>At 09:06 PM 6/9/01 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>  Area = L X diameter for the exposed surface of each piece of aluminum,
>> simple as that.
>
>
>
>Shouldn't the calculation be L X (Diameter X pi) ?  Or length times
>circumference?
>
>And this doesn't reflect tapering of the elements.
>
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
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>Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
>Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
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>


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From n3rr@erols.com  Sun Jun 10 03:16:01 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 03:16:01 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609183646.00a99390@127.0.0.1> <003b01c0f14a$834b54c0$4a0c2c42@billspiii> <031c01c0f155$81bf83a0$6401a8c0@neptune>
Message-ID: <006b01c0f153$4c244980$4a0c2c42@billspiii>

Hummm, I did not see that in his posting.

You are just verifying my posting, since, as you say, we must take Gene's
calculation and multiply by 0.6 to obtain wind area.
That makes sense to me, since Gene said that his calculation resulted in a
higher number than the mfrgs said.

0.6 is the multiple for the approximation of the integral I proposed in my
posting.

Bill, N3RR

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Tope <W4EF@dellroy.com>
To: Bill Hider <n3rr@erols.com>; EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>;
<towertalk@contesting.com>; Stu Greene <wa2moe@doitnow.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 3:31 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area


> Bill,
>
> Gene specifically said that he was calculating projected area without any
shape
> factors. The projected surface area at right angles to a cylindrical tube
is simply
> diameter x length. The effective area is computed by including the drag
coefficient
> of the object. For a cylinder, the drag coefficient is around 0.6. Thus
the effective
> area of an antenna with round members is about 40% smaller than the
projected
> area (a round tube of length, L and diameter D, is more aerodynamic than a
flat
> plate length L and width, D).
>
> 73 de Mike, W4EF....................
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Hider" <n3rr@erols.com>
> To: "EUGENE SMAR" <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>;
"Stu Greene" <wa2moe@doitnow.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 6:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
>
>
> > The formula Gene proposed is not exactly correct, nor does he precisely
> > state what to do with the taper.
> >
> > Regarding the formula, Gene's thinking is:  If you think of the wind as
> > hitting the tube broadside (at 90 Deg to the tube), the exposed surface
area
> > as seen by the wind looks like a rectangle whose length is the length of
the
> > tube and whose height is the full OUTSIDE diameter of the tube.  Hence,
L x
> > Dia.  Unfortunately, it is not that simple.
> >
> > The tube is a cylinder as seen by the wind, hence the angle that the
wind
> > *hits* the tube, even if it is perpendicular to the tube, hits at 0 Deg
on
> > the centerline and then the angle increases to 90 Deg as the wind hits
the
> > tube away from the centerline (above and below the centerline of the
tube
> > for a horizontal element).  This assumes the wind-front is wider than
the
> > outside diameter of the tube, which is probably a very good assumption.
So,
> > the surface area exposed to the wind by the tube is not simply L x Dia.
> > It's the exposed tube length times the integral from 0 to Dia of the
surface
> > area of each tube (Pi x Dia), where Dia is the Outside diameter of the
tube.
> > Gene, this is why the manufacturer's wind area is less than what you
> > calculated, and theirs is correct.  [If anyone has trouble picturing
this,
> > let me know and I'll try to explain it in more detail.]
> >
> > But, I question the correctness of adding all of these calculations up
and
> > saying that's the *wind area*.  It certainly is the 1/2 of the *surface
> > area* if it's done this way, but the wind cannot be simultaneously
hitting
> > the elements at 90 Deg and the boom at 90 Deg, so it should take that
into
> > account by specifying the *larger* of both calculations, but not the sum
of
> > both.
> >
> > Regarding the taper:  each tube should be calculated separately for the
> > *exposed* length of the tube *only*.  Remember, some tubes are *inside*
> > other tubes, causing the taper.
> >
> > Bill, N3RR
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Stu Greene <wa2moe@doitnow.com>
> > To: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 2:42 AM
> > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
> >
> >
> > > At 09:06 PM 6/9/01 -0400, you wrote:
> > >
> > > >  Area = L X diameter for the exposed surface of each piece of
aluminum,
> > > > simple as that.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Shouldn't the calculation be L X (Diameter X pi) ?  Or length times
> > > circumference?
> > >
> > > And this doesn't reflect tapering of the elements.
> > >
> > >
> > > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call
> > us
> > > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
up
> > to
> > > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> > HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> > >
> > > -----
> > > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > >
> >
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>


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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Sun Jun 10 04:48:28 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:48:28 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
Message-ID: <008e01c0f160$390112e0$d3b6ffd1@spelunk.sueno>

Bill:

     My comments are below.  Dick Weber K5IU's papers on the subject
includes equations for calculating force of the wind on tubular elements and
booms, all of which start with the calculation I described:  exposed tube
length X diameter.  The shape of the element/boom is taken into account by
something referred to (in the papers) as drag coefficient, which is 1.2 for
tubes used in Yagi construction.

     Most of what you question, Bill, is addressed in the very few papers
I've read so far.   If the area to be used to calculate wind force on
tapered elements is NOT the sum of the individual taper sections' shadow
areas, then I missed yet another non-obvious quirk in the aerodynamics
involved.

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Hider <n3rr@erols.com>
To: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; towertalk@contesting.com
<towertalk@contesting.com>; Stu Greene <wa2moe@doitnow.com>
Date: Saturday, June 09, 2001 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area


>The formula Gene proposed is not exactly correct, nor does he precisely
>state what to do with the taper.
>
>Regarding the formula, Gene's thinking is:  If you think of the wind as
>hitting the tube broadside (at 90 Deg to the tube), the exposed surface
area
>as seen by the wind looks like a rectangle whose length is the length of
the
>tube and whose height is the full OUTSIDE diameter of the tube.  Hence, L x
>Dia.

I agree.

>Unfortunately, it is not that simple.
>
>The tube is a cylinder as seen by the wind, hence the angle that the wind
>*hits* the tube, even if it is perpendicular to the tube, hits at 0 Deg on
>the centerline and then the angle increases to 90 Deg as the wind hits the
>tube away from the centerline (above and below the centerline of the tube
>for a horizontal element).

This is kinda like the sun's rays hitting the equator from directly overhead
at the equinoxes, while hitting the earth's surface at steeper and steeper
angles the farther away you go from the equator.

>This assumes the wind-front is wider than the
>outside diameter of the tube, which is probably a very good assumption.
So,
>the surface area exposed to the wind by the tube is not simply L x Dia.
>It's the exposed tube length times the integral from 0 to Dia of the
surface
>area of each tube (Pi x Dia), where Dia is the Outside diameter of the
tube.

The drag coefficient in the equations takes this into account.  From what I
gather, it's an empirical number, not one derived from the physics of the
problem as you're suggesting.


>Gene, this is why the manufacturer's wind area is less than what you
>calculated, and theirs is correct.

Why do you say theirs is correct, BIll?  We've been reading here about
discrepancies between specs and measurements of area taken by owners.  If
anything, the manufacturers ought to explain HOW they arrived at their
figures.  (I will say that F12's brochures define wind load as the larger of
element or boom load, but they don't say whether a shape factor or other
drag coefficient has been included.   So we can't tell if we can just plug
F12 figures into any of the windload equations in Dick's reference studies.)

 > [If anyone has trouble picturing this,
>let me know and I'll try to explain it in more detail.]
>
>But, I question the correctness of adding all of these calculations up and
>saying that's the *wind area*.  It certainly is the 1/2 of the *surface
>area* if it's done this way, but the wind cannot be simultaneously hitting
>the elements at 90 Deg and the boom at 90 Deg, so it should take that into
>account by specifying the *larger* of both calculations, but not the sum of
>both.

I agree that the larger of the two figures is what will give rise to the
maximum wind force on a Yagi.  I've been converted!  I'm advocating
collecting both boom and element areas and letting the user decide what to
do with the numbers.  I'm not advocating adding these figures to obtain the
total wind area of the Yagi.

>
>Regarding the taper:  each tube should be calculated separately for the
>*exposed* length of the tube *only*.  Remember, some tubes are *inside*
>other tubes, causing the taper.

Agreed.  That's why I said include exposed area of aluminum in the
calculation, implying that we should ignore the few inches buried inside the
next-larger diameter tube.
>
>Bill, N3RR
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Stu Greene <wa2moe@doitnow.com>
>To: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
>Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 2:42 AM
>Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
>
>
>> At 09:06 PM 6/9/01 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>> >  Area = L X diameter for the exposed surface of each piece of aluminum,
>> > simple as that.
>>
>>
>>
>> Shouldn't the calculation be L X (Diameter X pi) ?  Or length times
>> circumference?
>>
>> And this doesn't reflect tapering of the elements.
>>
>>
>> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
>us
>> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
>to
>> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
>HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>>
>> -----
>> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
>> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
>> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
>> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>>
>


List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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From rmidgett@bellsouth.net  Sun Jun 10 05:10:01 2001
From: rmidgett@bellsouth.net (Robin E. Midgett)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 23:10:01 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cinch Jones connectors
In-Reply-To: <EOEFIGFENHCAGPPJFHAHEEANCFAA.k1my@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010609230902.04e46ac0@mail.bna.bellsouth.net>

I suggest the use of 8 pin connectors such as are used on trailer lights. 
WB0W Inc. has them; www.wbow.com




At 17:02 6/9/01 -0700, Bruce Makas wrote:
>I have needs of Cinch Jones connectors for an antenna project that I am
>working on but am a little confused by what is available.
>
>Series 300 is the one everyone seems to be looking for but Cinch no longer
>makes an 8 pin series 300 version (I wonder why). Ref: www.cinch.com
>
>Cinch does manufacture a 2400 series that seems to be very similar to the
>300 series but a little larger. Is that the only difference and if so is it
>an appropriate alternative to the 300 series?
>
>I have also run across a Cinch Jones connector B754 (plug) and B764
>(socket). Does anyone know what this 8 pin connector is? Will it do the job?
>
>If all else fails, does anyone else make an 8 pin plug/panel mount socket
>that is good for our applications? Who stocks them?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Bruce K1MY
>
>Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona
>
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
>HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
>FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
>Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
>Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
>Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com

73,
Robin E. Midgett KB4IDC
VHF+ Glutton



List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Sun Jun 10 05:11:36 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 00:11:36 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
Message-ID: <00af01c0f163$74cb22e0$d3b6ffd1@spelunk.sueno>

Mike, Bill, et al:

     Hold everything!  Multiplying by 0.6 or 0.67 as a shape factor is NOT
the correct number.  It's 1.2 - at least according to Mechanical Engineering
in Radar and Communications, one of K5IU's references.   Let me go through
this again.

     A long, thin cylinder's drag coefficient is 1.2 (above) or the book's
wrong!  A flat plate's drag coefficient is 2.0 according to the same book.
Therefore, 1.2 is 60% of 2.0.  In other words, the effective area (taking
shape into account) of a Yagi tube is 1.2 times GREATER than the projected
area (simply L X diameter), not 40% LESS.  Big difference and the reason
I've begun questioning manufacturers' spec sheets.

     (Jump in here anytime, Dick.)

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Tope <W4EF@dellroy.com>
To: Bill Hider <n3rr@erols.com>; EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>;
towertalk@contesting.com <towertalk@contesting.com>; Stu Greene
<wa2moe@doitnow.com>
Date: Saturday, June 09, 2001 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area


>Bill,
>
>Gene specifically said that he was calculating projected area without any
shape
>factors. The projected surface area at right angles to a cylindrical tube
is simply
>diameter x length. The effective area is computed by including the drag
coefficient
>of the object. For a cylinder, the drag coefficient is around 0.6. Thus the
effective
>area of an antenna with round members is about 40% smaller than the
projected
>area (a round tube of length, L and diameter D, is more aerodynamic than a
flat
>plate length L and width, D).
>
>73 de Mike, W4EF....................
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bill Hider" <n3rr@erols.com>
>To: "EUGENE SMAR" <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>;
"Stu Greene" <wa2moe@doitnow.com>
>Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 6:13 PM
>Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
>
>
>> The formula Gene proposed is not exactly correct, nor does he precisely
>> state what to do with the taper.
>>
>> Regarding the formula, Gene's thinking is:  If you think of the wind as
>> hitting the tube broadside (at 90 Deg to the tube), the exposed surface
area
>> as seen by the wind looks like a rectangle whose length is the length of
the
>> tube and whose height is the full OUTSIDE diameter of the tube.  Hence, L
x
>> Dia.  Unfortunately, it is not that simple.
>>
>> The tube is a cylinder as seen by the wind, hence the angle that the wind
>> *hits* the tube, even if it is perpendicular to the tube, hits at 0 Deg
on
>> the centerline and then the angle increases to 90 Deg as the wind hits
the
>> tube away from the centerline (above and below the centerline of the tube
>> for a horizontal element).  This assumes the wind-front is wider than the
>> outside diameter of the tube, which is probably a very good assumption.
So,
>> the surface area exposed to the wind by the tube is not simply L x Dia.
>> It's the exposed tube length times the integral from 0 to Dia of the
surface
>> area of each tube (Pi x Dia), where Dia is the Outside diameter of the
tube.
>> Gene, this is why the manufacturer's wind area is less than what you
>> calculated, and theirs is correct.  [If anyone has trouble picturing
this,
>> let me know and I'll try to explain it in more detail.]
>>
>> But, I question the correctness of adding all of these calculations up
and
>> saying that's the *wind area*.  It certainly is the 1/2 of the *surface
>> area* if it's done this way, but the wind cannot be simultaneously
hitting
>> the elements at 90 Deg and the boom at 90 Deg, so it should take that
into
>> account by specifying the *larger* of both calculations, but not the sum
of
>> both.
>>
>> Regarding the taper:  each tube should be calculated separately for the
>> *exposed* length of the tube *only*.  Remember, some tubes are *inside*
>> other tubes, causing the taper.
>>
>> Bill, N3RR
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Stu Greene <wa2moe@doitnow.com>
>> To: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 2:42 AM
>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
>>
>>
>> > At 09:06 PM 6/9/01 -0400, you wrote:
>> >
>> > >  Area = L X diameter for the exposed surface of each piece of
aluminum,
>> > > simple as that.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Shouldn't the calculation be L X (Diameter X pi) ?  Or length times
>> > circumference?
>> >
>> > And this doesn't reflect tapering of the elements.
>> >
>> >
>> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call
>> us
>> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
up
>> to
>> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
>> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>> >
>> > -----
>> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
>> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
>> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
>> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>> >
>>
>>
>> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
>> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
>> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>>
>> -----
>> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
>> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
>> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
>> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>>
>


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From n9iww2@verizon.net  Sun Jun 10 06:13:45 2001
From: n9iww2@verizon.net (Kevin Adam, Webz By design)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 00:13:45 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cinch Jones connectors
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010609230902.04e46ac0@mail.bna.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <001101c0f16c$28f12c30$13a60304@n9iww>


http://www.wb0w.com/  wb0w  wb zero w .com correction to his web site
address.


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Robin E. Midgett
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 11:10 PM
To: Bruce Makas; towertalk submital
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Cinch Jones connectors

I suggest the use of 8 pin connectors such as are used on trailer
lights. 
WB0W Inc. has them; www.wbow.com




At 17:02 6/9/01 -0700, Bruce Makas wrote:
>I have needs of Cinch Jones connectors for an antenna project that I am
>working on but am a little confused by what is available.
>
>Series 300 is the one everyone seems to be looking for but Cinch no
longer
>makes an 8 pin series 300 version (I wonder why). Ref: www.cinch.com
>
>Cinch does manufacture a 2400 series that seems to be very similar to
the
>300 series but a little larger. Is that the only difference and if so
is it
>an appropriate alternative to the 300 series?
>
>I have also run across a Cinch Jones connector B754 (plug) and B764
>(socket). Does anyone know what this 8 pin connector is? Will it do the
job?
>
>If all else fails, does anyone else make an 8 pin plug/panel mount
socket
>that is good for our applications? Who stocks them?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Bruce K1MY
>
>Sunny Sun Lakes, Arizona
>
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
>HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
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>Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
>Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
>Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com

73,
Robin E. Midgett KB4IDC
VHF+ Glutton



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Call us
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to
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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Sun Jun 10 12:01:58 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 11:01:58 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609183646.00a99390@127.0.0.1> <003b01c0f14a$834b54c0$4a0c2c42@billspiii>
Message-ID: <3B2353A6.FB4B1A53@gloryroad.net>

It appears that mother nature knows all about the calculation of wind
force.

She knows that arrays have an effective surface area less than the sum
of the areas of the individual elements.  Another way of saying it is
the force of the wind on other "elements" in an array is less than the
"lead" element.  
Otherwise:

1) Geese would not fly in V formations and the lead goose would not
swap with others in the flock. (Why a V not one behind another?  Is
that a lower energy use configuration or is it a simple matter of them
being to be able to better see the goose in front of them?)

2) Long distance runners (bicyclers, et al) would prefer to always be
ahead of the pack and not fall back in the pack occasionally to
conserve their energy.

The question is how much less.  My guess is that one needs a computer
type anaylysis or wind tunnel tests to determine this.  It isn't clear
to me that head on to the wind is always the worst case.  The goose
analogy indicates that the "best case" may not necessarily be what one
would guess.

73 de Brian/K3KO  
 

Bill Hider wrote:
> 
> The formula Gene proposed is not exactly correct, nor does he precisely
> state what to do with the taper.
> 
> Regarding the formula, Gene's thinking is:  If you think of the wind as
> hitting the tube broadside (at 90 Deg to the tube), the exposed surface area
> as seen by the wind looks like a rectangle whose length is the length of the
> tube and whose height is the full OUTSIDE diameter of the tube.  Hence, L x
> Dia.  Unfortunately, it is not that simple.
> 
> The tube is a cylinder as seen by the wind, hence the angle that the wind
> *hits* the tube, even if it is perpendicular to the tube, hits at 0 Deg on
> the centerline and then the angle increases to 90 Deg as the wind hits the
> tube away from the centerline (above and below the centerline of the tube
> for a horizontal element).  This assumes the wind-front is wider than the
> outside diameter of the tube, which is probably a very good assumption.  So,
> the surface area exposed to the wind by the tube is not simply L x Dia.
> It's the exposed tube length times the integral from 0 to Dia of the surface
> area of each tube (Pi x Dia), where Dia is the Outside diameter of the tube.
> Gene, this is why the manufacturer's wind area is less than what you
> calculated, and theirs is correct.  [If anyone has trouble picturing this,
> let me know and I'll try to explain it in more detail.]
> 
> But, I question the correctness of adding all of these calculations up and
> saying that's the *wind area*.  It certainly is the 1/2 of the *surface
> area* if it's done this way, but the wind cannot be simultaneously hitting
> the elements at 90 Deg and the boom at 90 Deg, so it should take that into
> account by specifying the *larger* of both calculations, but not the sum of
> both.
> 
> Regarding the taper:  each tube should be calculated separately for the
> *exposed* length of the tube *only*.  Remember, some tubes are *inside*
> other tubes, causing the taper.
> 
> Bill, N3RR
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stu Greene <wa2moe@doitnow.com>
> To: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 2:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
> 
> > At 09:06 PM 6/9/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> > >  Area = L X diameter for the exposed surface of each piece of aluminum,
> > > simple as that.
> >
> >
> >
> > Shouldn't the calculation be L X (Diameter X pi) ?  Or length times
> > circumference?
> >
> > And this doesn't reflect tapering of the elements.
> >
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
> us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
> to
>

List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
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From kg2au@stny.rr.com  Sun Jun 10 15:23:12 2001
From: kg2au@stny.rr.com (Jimmy Weierich)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:23:12 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
In-Reply-To: <3B2353A6.FB4B1A53@gloryroad.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609183646.00a99390@127.0.0.1>
 <003b01c0f14a$834b54c0$4a0c2c42@billspiii>
 <3B2353A6.FB4B1A53@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <a05100300b7492f387acc@[24.169.160.230]>

Brian/K3KO wrote:

>1) Geese would not fly in V formations and the lead goose would not
>swap with others in the flock. (Why a V not one behind another?  Is
>that a lower energy use configuration or is it a simple matter of them
>being to be able to better see the goose in front of them?)

Studies have shown that this is, indeed, a lower energy use 
configuration! But it's not a question of reduced drag, as in the 
bicycle racer situation, but something else entirely.

Each goose flies in the "tip vortex" produced by the preceding goose. 
You may have noticed in movies of aircraft that sometimes a vortex, 
or spiral, of air is visible (due to moisture condensation) rising 
off the tip of the aircraft's wing. This same phenomena occurs off 
the tip of bird's wings. Each goose in the vee flies in this rising 
vortex of air from the goose in front of it to gain a little "lift" 
and thus reduce the effort needed to fly. They fly only to the 
outside, not the inside of the vee to avoid flying in the "dirty," or 
turbulent, air directly behind another goose.

You can look it up,
Jimmy


-- 
Jimmy Weierich, KG2AU       <kg2au@stny.rr.com>
Vestal, NY  USA           FN12xa

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From wa9als@starband.net  Sun Jun 10 15:11:58 2001
From: wa9als@starband.net (WA9ALS - John)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 09:11:58 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609183646.00a99390@127.0.0.1> <003b01c0f14a$834b54c0$4a0c2c42@billspiii> <3B2353A6.FB4B1A53@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <005901c0f1b7$56d54320$0201a8c0@any>

> 1) Geese would not fly in V formations and the lead goose would not
> swap with others in the flock. (Why a V not one behind another?  Is
> that a lower energy use configuration or is it a simple matter of them
> being to be able to better see the goose in front of them?)

Although it might be desirable to "fly with eagles", and you can save
gasoline by backdrafting behind a semi, I can't advise backdrafting behind
the lead goose.  (Geese know this!)

sri

On a serious note, I don't think antenna manufacturers lie to us about stuff
like wind surface area.  What's really more important than any one claim is
whether antenna, tower, and rotator manufacturers are using the same methods
to calculate surface area of the things that they are testing!  73



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From tao@skypoint.com  Sun Jun 10 16:15:19 2001
From: tao@skypoint.com (Tod - Minnesota)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:15:19 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area and wind force
In-Reply-To: <008901c0f15b$8e084b00$d3b6ffd1@spelunk.sueno>
Message-ID: <ALEBLDFHBLGBHPOFNFOPMEFLDHAA.tao@skypoint.com>

I am sure that I must be missing something in my reasoning, but drawing from
my faint recollection of advanced calculus and/or vector calculus it seems
to me that the solution to the wind force on an antenna element will be a
double integral which integrates the wind force vector normal to an
infinitesimal surface area element over all angles from 0 to pi (0 to 180
deg) in the vertical plane and 0 to pi in the horizontal plane on the side
of the element facing the wind source.

Once the equations for the wind force on the infinitesimal surface area
element are written, it should be possible to write an equation that
describes the torque generated by that infinitesimal element. (Rotation
around the mast, tower overturning torque or similar torque of interest).

Additional integrations over all surface area infinitesimals should provide
the total torque that is of interest. "Turn the crank and get the answer",
as one of my calculus professors would often say (usually when I had no idea
what the hell he was talking about). His other pet phrase was, "The answer
is obvious!". He once said this, looked at the equations he had written on
the board, pondered them, and then left the room for five minutes. When he
came back he said, "Yes, the answer is obvious".

There may be no simple analytic solution, but I would expect that there is a
way to use numerical analysis to get good approximations to the solution.

Fearing that I have made a simplistic mistake in putting these thoughts
together, I will stand back and let the flaming begin.


Tod, KØTO




-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of EUGENE SMAR
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 10:07 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com; Stu Greene
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area


Stu:

     The area to which I refer is the area of the cylindrical shape of a
tubular element/boom as seen in shadow behind the element/boom.  This is the
area used in all wind force studies I've read over the past couple of weeks,
including those by Dick Weber, K5IU.  The area to which you refer is the
surface area of the entire element, the area of material, as it were, needed
to fabricate the element.  This area is NOT used in the computation of wind
force.

     The tapering of elements would be accounted for by measuring the length
and diameter of each taper segment as above and adding them together.

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: Stu Greene <wa2moe@doitnow.com>
To: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; towertalk@contesting.com
<towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Saturday, June 09, 2001 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area


>At 09:06 PM 6/9/01 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>  Area = L X diameter for the exposed surface of each piece of aluminum,
>> simple as that.
>
>
>
>Shouldn't the calculation be L X (Diameter X pi) ?  Or length times
>circumference?
>
>And this doesn't reflect tapering of the elements.
>
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
>FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
>Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
>Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
>Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>


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From n4zr@contesting.com  Sun Jun 10 16:17:28 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 11:17:28 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
In-Reply-To: <005901c0f1b7$56d54320$0201a8c0@any>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609183646.00a99390@127.0.0.1>
 <003b01c0f14a$834b54c0$4a0c2c42@billspiii>
 <3B2353A6.FB4B1A53@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010610111728.009deda0@mail.abs.adelphia.net>

At 09:11 AM 6/10/01 -0500, WA9ALS wrote:
...
>On a serious note, I don't think antenna manufacturers lie to us about stuff
>like wind surface area.  What's really more important than any one claim is
>whether antenna, tower, and rotator manufacturers are using the same methods
>to calculate surface area of the things that they are testing!  73

Agreed, but antenna manufacturers have a marketing interest in keeping
their numbers generous ("Sure, that'll go on your tower"), while tower and
rotator manufacturers have an interest in using the most conservative
numbers ("Well, you shouldn't have overloaded it, or it wouldn't have
failed").  They can use numbers that meet their differing needs, simply by
picking and choosing from the range of what's available.

What behooves us, as consumers, is to press for defined numbers so that we
can be sure we have apples vs apples, instead of apples vs oranges.

73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From tao@skypoint.com  Sun Jun 10 16:33:21 2001
From: tao@skypoint.com (Tod - Minnesota)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:33:21 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
In-Reply-To: <005901c0f1b7$56d54320$0201a8c0@any>
Message-ID: <ALEBLDFHBLGBHPOFNFOPEEFMDHAA.tao@skypoint.com>

Wasn't the original purpose of this discussion to allow someone to put
together a tower and antenna system that would neither blow over in the wind
nor be 'crushed' under its own over-designed weight?

If we use equations that calculate forces and torques that are high (two
times or even three times high), aren't we simply adding a safety factor to
the overall design? It is really hard to work DX when you spend all of your
free time calculating wind loading. At some point I would think we would
have a sufficiently good set of equations and models to allow quick, safe
values to be determined and then we can get on with the assembly, hoisting
and maybe even use of the antenna system.


Tod, KØTO



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From wd3q@erols.com  Sun Jun 10 16:52:42 2001
From: wd3q@erols.com (Eric Rosenberg)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 11:52:42 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Connectors for RG-142?
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010610114939.00a00660@pop3.norton.antivirus>

I've just inherited approx. 50 feet of RG-142 that I'd like to break up 
and use as jumpers in the shack.

What connectors are available for this double-shielded coax, and how 
hard are they to put on? Do I need any special hardware?  My source 
*may* have a connector tool, but if so I suspect it's for BNCs or TNCs 
only.

Thanks in advance,

Eric W3DQ
Washington, DC 


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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Sun Jun 10 17:53:02 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:53:02 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
Message-ID: <007601c0f1cd$d2e84140$dfb6ffd1@spelunk.sueno>

I take it that no one finds my suggestion of collecting physical
measurements of antenna components of value.  Oh, well,... back to the hole
in my yard!


73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Smith <n4zr@contesting.com>
To: towertalk@contesting.com <towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Sunday, June 10, 2001 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area


>At 09:11 AM 6/10/01 -0500, WA9ALS wrote:
>...
>>On a serious note, I don't think antenna manufacturers lie to us about
stuff
>>like wind surface area.  What's really more important than any one claim
is
>>whether antenna, tower, and rotator manufacturers are using the same
methods
>>to calculate surface area of the things that they are testing!  73
>
>Agreed, but antenna manufacturers have a marketing interest in keeping
>their numbers generous ("Sure, that'll go on your tower"), while tower and
>rotator manufacturers have an interest in using the most conservative
>numbers ("Well, you shouldn't have overloaded it, or it wouldn't have
>failed").  They can use numbers that meet their differing needs, simply by
>picking and choosing from the range of what's available.
>
>What behooves us, as consumers, is to press for defined numbers so that we
>can be sure we have apples vs apples, instead of apples vs oranges.
>
>73, Pete N4ZR
>No, no ... that's WEST Virginia
>
>
>
>
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
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>


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From kr7x@gte.net  Sun Jun 10 18:11:20 2001
From: kr7x@gte.net (Hank Lonbeg)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:11:20 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
In-Reply-To: <ALEBLDFHBLGBHPOFNFOPEEFMDHAA.tao@skypoint.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBIIOKCLGFIKMAIGFAKELLCAAA.kr7x@gte.net>

Time Out everyone:

All this talk about integrating and double integrals has given me a head
ache. As defined in the Building Code I know the most about ( the UBC), the
surface area exposed to the wind is the plane projected area normal to the
wind direction under consideration. For a flat plate of W width and L length
with the W dimension normal to the wind the projected area is the width W
times the length L. It is really  that simple. A cylindrical member of
diameter D and Length L has a projected area of L X D. Any modifiers to the
projected area are used to describe the effects of shape and size(the
Reynolds number or Froude number) to the air mass moving over the particular
element. At the normal range  of element sizes and distances between
elements it is safe to assume that the elements do not shade each other and
that the total projected area is the sum of the elements and any connnection
items that have an normal area in the same direction. The same is true for
wind normal to the boom which might have a shape factor coefficient because
it is of large enough diameter. (The UBC uses 1.0 for elements less than or
equal to 2" in diameter and 0.8 for cylindrical elements large than 2" in
diameter.)

This method is used not only for towers but is used for buildings and other
structures to determine their design loads. You must remember that all these
loads are approximations of the real world and are not exact numbers. Use
the most significant digit analysis and realize that any wind load numbers
you come up with are really only significant to the nearest 5 or 10 pounds
anyway.

What the manufactures need to do is to publish the antenna areas as the
projected area to the nearest 0.5 Square foot and be done with it. It really
makes no sense for them to publish wind load information in Pounds Force at
some wind velocity because they normally don't publish the height and method
of calculation and other assumptions for that load. It is meaningless
without the additional information.

In reality considering a triangular open trussed type tower system, unless
it is extremely short, the wind load on the tower is the largest force in
the system, not the wind load on the antenna. The absolute antenna load is
most important for the selection of the mast materials and size and of
course the load capacity of the rotor.

73 and happy calculating


Hank Lonberg P.E. / KR7X








-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Tod - Minnesota
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 8:33 AM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area


Wasn't the original purpose of this discussion to allow someone to put
together a tower and antenna system that would neither blow over in the wind
nor be 'crushed' under its own over-designed weight?

If we use equations that calculate forces and torques that are high (two
times or even three times high), aren't we simply adding a safety factor to
the overall design? It is really hard to work DX when you spend all of your
free time calculating wind loading. At some point I would think we would
have a sufficiently good set of equations and models to allow quick, safe
values to be determined and then we can get on with the assembly, hoisting
and maybe even use of the antenna system.


Tod, KØTO



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From w5kp@swbell.net  Sun Jun 10 18:13:35 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:13:35 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609183646.00a99390@127.0.0.1>
 <003b01c0f14a$834b54c0$4a0c2c42@billspiii> <3B2353A6.FB4B1A53@gloryroad.net>
 <005901c0f1b7$56d54320$0201a8c0@any>
Message-ID: <004501c0f1d0$af7759a0$8d21c1cf@jkdesktop>

I must respectfully disagree, John. I've seen them lie like a rug for years,
with the sole exception of Force 12. It comes from their being driven by
their sales and marketing departments, combined with the relative ignorance
(at least until the past few years) of their targeted market, namely us
hams. We have been easy ducks on the pond. :-) To a certain degree, since
the inception of gain antennas for ham use, we have been "marketed to" like
the CB'ers - many of whom believe they MUST have a whip for their 4 watt rig
that has at least a 5 KW loading coil, because the higher the power rating
of the loading coil, the further they can talk. Sad, but true. I do believe,
though, the worm has turned somewhat on antenna knowledge, at least among
the ham community. Don't see too many ads for tribanders with 13 db of gain
anymore.
73, Jerry

>
> On a serious note, I don't think antenna manufacturers lie to us about
stuff
> like wind surface area.  What's really more important than any one claim
is
> whether antenna, tower, and rotator manufacturers are using the same
methods
> to calculate surface area of the things that they are testing!  73
>



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From tao@skypoint.com  Sun Jun 10 19:21:03 2001
From: tao@skypoint.com (Tod - Minnesota)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:21:03 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
In-Reply-To: <NEBBIIOKCLGFIKMAIGFAKELLCAAA.kr7x@gte.net>
Message-ID: <ALEBLDFHBLGBHPOFNFOPCEFODHAA.tao@skypoint.com>

Hank is bringing us back to reality here with these six practical
statements--

(1). For a flat plate of W width and L length with the W dimension normal to
the wind the projected area is the width W times the length L. It is really
that simple.

(2). A cylindrical member of diameter D and Length L has a projected area of
L X D.

(3). At the normal range  of element sizes and distances between elements it
is safe to assume that the elements do not shade each other and that the
total projected area is the sum of the elements and any connnection items
that have an normal area in the same direction.

(4). The same is true for wind normal to the boom which might have a shape
factor coefficient because it is of large enough diameter. (The UBC uses 1.0
for elements less than or equal to 2" in diameter and 0.8 for cylindrical
elements large than 2" in diameter.)

(5). In reality considering a triangular open trussed type tower system,
unless it is extremely short, the wind load on the tower is the largest
force in the system, not the wind load on the antenna.

(6). The absolute antenna load is most important for the selection of the
mast materials and size and of course the load capacity of the rotor.


Tod, KØTO


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From albraun@earthlink.net  Sun Jun 10 19:30:36 2001
From: albraun@earthlink.net (Alan Braun)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:30:36 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area and wind force
References: <ALEBLDFHBLGBHPOFNFOPMEFLDHAA.tao@skypoint.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c0f1db$7378c3c0$0c48273f@albraun>

This particular discussion doesn't do much for me personally, but shows why
I like this reflector so well. People talk about useful subjects that are
"on-topic". They can disagree with each other and not get into the flame
wars so common on the DX reflectors. Plus folks come out of the woodwork and
provide expertise you'd be hard pressed to find anywhere else.

Good job guys.

Alan NS0B

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tod - Minnesota" <tao@skypoint.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 3:15 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area and wind force


> I am sure that I must be missing something in my reasoning, but drawing
from
> my faint recollection of advanced calculus and/or vector calculus it seems
> to me that the solution to the wind force on an antenna element will be a
> double integral which integrates the wind force vector normal to an
> infinitesimal surface area element over all angles from 0 to pi (0 to 180
> deg) in the vertical plane and 0 to pi in the horizontal plane on the side
> of the element facing the wind source.
>
> Once the equations for the wind force on the infinitesimal surface area
> element are written, it should be possible to write an equation that
> describes the torque generated by that infinitesimal element. (Rotation
> around the mast, tower overturning torque or similar torque of interest).
>
> Additional integrations over all surface area infinitesimals should
provide
> the total torque that is of interest. "Turn the crank and get the answer",
> as one of my calculus professors would often say (usually when I had no
idea
> what the hell he was talking about). His other pet phrase was, "The answer
> is obvious!". He once said this, looked at the equations he had written on
> the board, pondered them, and then left the room for five minutes. When he
> came back he said, "Yes, the answer is obvious".
>
> There may be no simple analytic solution, but I would expect that there is
a
> way to use numerical analysis to get good approximations to the solution.
>
> Fearing that I have made a simplistic mistake in putting these thoughts
> together, I will stand back and let the flaming begin.
>
>
> Tod, KØTO
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of EUGENE SMAR
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 10:07 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com; Stu Greene
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
>
>
> Stu:
>
>      The area to which I refer is the area of the cylindrical shape of a
> tubular element/boom as seen in shadow behind the element/boom.  This is
the
> area used in all wind force studies I've read over the past couple of
weeks,
> including those by Dick Weber, K5IU.  The area to which you refer is the
> surface area of the entire element, the area of material, as it were,
needed
> to fabricate the element.  This area is NOT used in the computation of
wind
> force.
>
>      The tapering of elements would be accounted for by measuring the
length
> and diameter of each taper segment as above and adding them together.
>
> 73 de
> Gene Smar  AD3F
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stu Greene <wa2moe@doitnow.com>
> To: EUGENE SMAR <SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net>; towertalk@contesting.com
> <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Date: Saturday, June 09, 2001 9:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
>
>
> >At 09:06 PM 6/9/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >>  Area = L X diameter for the exposed surface of each piece of aluminum,
> >> simple as that.
> >
> >
> >
> >Shouldn't the calculation be L X (Diameter X pi) ?  Or length times
> >circumference?
> >
> >And this doesn't reflect tapering of the elements.
> >
> >
> >List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
> us
> >for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> >96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> >www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
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> >
>
>
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>
>
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>


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From baycock@HIWAAY.NET  Sun Jun 10 20:13:19 2001
From: baycock@HIWAAY.NET (Bill Aycock)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:13:19 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] windforces on antennas
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010610141319.018dbd40@HIWAAY.NET>

I am a retired "Aerospace" Engineer, who started his professional career
called an "aeronautical" Engineer. At that time, we dealt mostly with
low-speed aero characteristics, which is what we are concerned with, with
antennas.

The arguments over which area to use are all right, every one, and all
wrong, every one, depending on how you apply the numbers. Calculating drag
(wind force) is like Zen archery- first you shoot your arrow, then find it,
then call that spot the target. Simple.

In calculating drag, you need the effect of four factors- the
characteristics of the air - the reference area of the object we worry
about - the shape factor for that object ( called, usually, drag
coefficient) and the velocity of the air passing the object. Note that I
said "reference" area, not surface or projected area. It really doesnt
matter, so long as the area you use matches the one used to calculate the
form factor, or drag coefficient from measurements. If one is a little off,
the other, since it is derived from data, compensates. 

In practice, what is done is to take a shape- calculate the area projected
in some repeatable direction, place it in a wind tunnel, and measure the
force for various wind speeds. The relationship gives the form factor.
after that- you can add shapes together, make them larger or smaller, etc,
and, so long as you use the same method, you can calculate the drag for
other , similar shapes. 

THat is what the antenna manufacturers have done. They have standardized on
a form factor for antennas from measurements, and they give you a reference
area that, with the proper application of the wind speed, will give you the
proper force.

I know that Steve, our professional erector, has the proper specs and
numbers that are used according to the "Code". I cant remember the number
of that spec, but he has it.

Bill-W4BSG
-
Bill Aycock   ---   Persimmon Hill 
 Woodville, Alabama, US 35776
 (in the N.E. corner of the State)
      W4BSG   --   Grid EM64vr
        baycock@HiWAAY.net
             w4bsg@arrl.net

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From jimsmith@home.com  Sun Jun 10 20:37:47 2001
From: jimsmith@home.com (Jim Smith)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:37:47 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cinch Jones connectors
References: <001101c0f16c$28f12c30$13a60304@n9iww>
Message-ID: <3B23CC8B.3C19DA2D@home.com>

Kevin

Netscape can't find the site.  Is the URL correct?

73 de Jim Smith	VE7FO

"Kevin Adam, Webz By design" wrote:
> 
> http://www.wb0w.com/  wb0w  wb zero w .com correction to his web site
> address.

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From n4vi@arrl.net  Sun Jun 10 20:45:00 2001
From: n4vi@arrl.net (Chris Adams)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:45:00 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] house wiring ...rfi reduction
Message-ID: <3B23CE3C.64AE7150@arrl.net>

Towertalkians!!  ...

Although officially we're doing a house "remodel" for all practical
purposes it is new construction.  Since the house wiring will be all
new, I have the opportunity to use various rfi reducton techniques on
the AC power wiring, telephone wiring and any internal network wiring.

The first thing that occurs to me is to use some type of toroids on the
lines mentioned above.

Has anyone done anything like this?

Any suggestions?  I'd love to hear them.  Sooner is good!


thanks es 73's


de Chris, n4vi

P.S.  If you subscribe to the RFI reflector, I apologize in advance for
the duplcate post!

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From smlx@earthlink.net  Sun Jun 10 20:58:57 2001
From: smlx@earthlink.net (Nancy & Steve Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:58:57 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Anyone using Force 12 WARC 2-2-1?
Message-ID: <l03130300b74981e860e3@[209.178.129.70]>




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From wa2moe@doitnow.com  Sun Jun 10 21:15:38 2001
From: wa2moe@doitnow.com (Stu Greene)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:15:38 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610130418.00a9ea40@127.0.0.1>

I regret (1) having thought about the question and (2) expressing my views.

Each posting has been read and considered and then, even more confused, I 
ran a Google search on the question >surface area of a cylinder<

http://www.math.com/tables/geometry/surfareas.htm  is the easiest to 
understand but the intangible of how much of the area of the element should 
be calculated for wind loading purposes rermains.

It seems to me that to solve wind loading area we need a wind tunnel, a 
Cray computer, and professors of  logic, mathematics and physics, 
preferably from a top notch engineering university, and an Act of Congress.

This is not an easy question and I quit


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From n3rr@erols.com  Sun Jun 10 21:11:06 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 21:11:06 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] house wiring ...rfi reduction
References: <3B23CE3C.64AE7150@arrl.net>
Message-ID: <033e01c0f1e9$7c5827c0$e40f2c42@billspiii>

Chris,

For the telephone wiring, use 4-pair, shielded cable and insert a
K-Com filter *in the wall* at every telephone jack (in series with the
daisy-chain, not in series with the outlet jack.
That will do two things:
1) reduce RF input to the cable by using the shielding and; 2) not allow the
cable
to look like an antenna.  The K-com filters will trap the FR and not let it
pass to the phones.
Some will say that using the shielding is redundant if you break up the
cable with K-coms,
but stubborn cases still exist where shielding is necessary.  Tie the
shields together and ground
them all at one point - the interface block at the house entrance.  Then tie
that to your single point ground (SPG) .

For the data wiring (Ethernet, etc) use shielded Category 5e wiring. with
home runs to the Router/Hub from each
data jack.  Again, ground the shield at the Router or Hub.

As far as the AC power is concerned, your licensed electrician will follow
the building codes in your area.
I, personally, would not use toroids in the AC wiring.
Check out what I did in my house (link below), to tie the AC into my SPG.
While this is for lightning protection,
it helps keep the RF out of the wiring as well.

All of the above grounds should be tied to the SPG of your ham shack/house.
For more detail on this, see my Website: www.erols.com/n3rr Click on:
"Lightning Protection Subsystem".

73,
Bill, N3RR

----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Adams <n4vi@arrl.net>
To: Towertalk <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 8:45 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] house wiring ...rfi reduction


> Towertalkians!!  ...
>
> Although officially we're doing a house "remodel" for all practical
> purposes it is new construction.  Since the house wiring will be all
> new, I have the opportunity to use various rfi reducton techniques on
> the AC power wiring, telephone wiring and any internal network wiring.
>
> The first thing that occurs to me is to use some type of toroids on the
> lines mentioned above.
>
> Has anyone done anything like this?
>
> Any suggestions?  I'd love to hear them.  Sooner is good!
>
>
> thanks es 73's
>
>
> de Chris, n4vi
>
> P.S.  If you subscribe to the RFI reflector, I apologize in advance for
> the duplcate post!
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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>


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From wa3gin@erols.com  Sun Jun 10 22:20:50 2001
From: wa3gin@erols.com (David Jordan)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:20:50 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rust Converter
Message-ID: <3B23E4B2.1D5C2CCD@erols.com>


Hi Folks,

I've started working on renovating my tower...got some surface rust.
I've been using my drill with a wire cup brush attachment to get the
rust off and down to almost bare metal...  Then I've been painting it
with some chemical stuff the farmers use around here( Gempler's rust
converter)...it turns the remaining rust a black color.  Apparently,
after that one just has to paint over it.

Does anyone know if this stuff is worth using?  Should I just use cold
galvanized paint over the bare metal?

thanks,
dave
wa3gin


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From n3rr@erols.com  Sun Jun 10 21:34:07 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 21:34:07 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rust Converter
References: <3B23E4B2.1D5C2CCD@erols.com>
Message-ID: <034c01c0f1ec$b3269540$e40f2c42@billspiii>

Dave,

On my Website, I go into much detail on how to do this.
www.erols.com/n3rr

In the System Design menu, click on "Tower/Guy Anchor Rust Delay/Repair
Subsystem "

Bill, N3RR


----- Original Message -----
From: David Jordan <wa3gin@erols.com>
To: Towertalk <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 10:20 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rust Converter


>
> Hi Folks,
>
> I've started working on renovating my tower...got some surface rust.
> I've been using my drill with a wire cup brush attachment to get the
> rust off and down to almost bare metal...  Then I've been painting it
> with some chemical stuff the farmers use around here( Gempler's rust
> converter)...it turns the remaining rust a black color.  Apparently,
> after that one just has to paint over it.
>
> Does anyone know if this stuff is worth using?  Should I just use cold
> galvanized paint over the bare metal?
>
> thanks,
> dave
> wa3gin
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>


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From n4zr@contesting.com  Mon Jun 11 01:40:43 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 20:40:43 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610130418.00a9ea40@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010610204043.009d97a0@mail.abs.adelphia.net>

At 01:15 PM 6/10/01 -0700, Stu Greene wrote:
>I regret (1) having thought about the question and (2) expressing my views.
>
>Each posting has been read and considered and then, even more confused, I 
>ran a Google search on the question >surface area of a cylinder<
>
>http://www.math.com/tables/geometry/surfareas.htm  is the easiest to 
>understand but the intangible of how much of the area of the element should 
>be calculated for wind loading purposes rermains.
>
>It seems to me that to solve wind loading area we need a wind tunnel, a 
>Cray computer, and professors of  logic, mathematics and physics, 
>preferably from a top notch engineering university, and an Act of Congress.
>
>This is not an easy question and I quit

Or on the other hand you could get a copy of K7NV's Yagistress, which
incorporates the latest thinking on the aerodynamics of Yagi antennas, as
well as their mechanics.  

http://yagistress.freeyellow.com


73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From JerryC" <jerryc@netscope.net  Sun Jun 10 23:56:22 2001
From: JerryC" <jerryc@netscope.net (JerryC)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:56:22 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Antenna surface area
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609183646.00a99390@127.0.0.1> <003b01c0f14a$834b54c0$4a0c2c42@billspiii> <3B2353A6.FB4B1A53@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <000001c0f213$2a722d00$56e21404@jerryc>

Well guys and gals
I just went thru the numbers on my 4el vee antenna and the mfg. sheets
were nowhere close.  I really think that most mfgs numbers are intended for
rotator
sizing.  They only seem to give you enough to make shure your new antenna
can be
turned (and held) by your rotator.  As for my calculations (right or wrong)
I used
the ARRL antenna book for reference.  They may not be 100% correct but it
has to be better than what I could come up with on my own.
JerryC
jerryc@netscope.net

















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From n1nk@home.com  Mon Jun 11 02:13:33 2001
From: n1nk@home.com (Jim Spears)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 21:13:33 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] gottta move the tri-ex lm354 from new york to rhode island
Message-ID: <009a01c0f213$db6e1920$7e04fea9@ports1.ri.home.com>

hi gang

sure appreciate the info and hints regarding the tower base issue.  as soon
as I have the detailed plans I expect to talk with local fab shops to get
the base assembly fabbed up as the consensus is that I should stay as far
away from first call as I can.  I have confidence that the base can be
fabbed.

so the next step for me is to move the tower.  it has the erection fixture
so getting it down on the ground won't be hard.  will have ample labor on
the scene to get it off the ground onto a moving platform.  vehicle access
to the yard is not a problem.  if I can get a good approach to getting it
moving this way, then dealing with it when I get it home should be easier.

question:  what is the best way to haul it 200 miles?  it is about 22'
collapsed and about 1000 pounds.  first thought is a car haul trailer,
second thought is a boat trailer.  third thought is a truck of the type used
to retrieve broken cars with a tilt bed and winch.  another thought is a box
truck, uhaul has a 26' one that might allow it to fit in laying from left
front to right rear but is a high entry.

would appreciate hints and advice from those who have moved these kind of
things around.

I have a grand cherokee with class 4 hitch so should be able to tow any kind
of trailer that I come up with, if this is too small then I can use my
motorhome but I would prefer to keep it down to the cherokee.

thanks in advance.  having access to a lot of folks who have wrestled with
these problems comes in real handy!

jim spears
N1NK
x AB6R (from the land of tight cc7r's and local restrictions...)


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From w3qz@voicenet.com  Mon Jun 11 04:05:53 2001
From: w3qz@voicenet.com (Ron Cox)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:05:53 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Roller Guides
Message-ID: <3B243591.9AF26706@voicenet.com>

Hi TTers,
             The holes in the yard are filled so let it rain. Anyone
know where I can aquire
roller guides for tri-ex tower? 2 of the sadles seem to have worn out on
the  two bottom sections. Tnx

73 Ron


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From kb3aug@juno.com  Mon Jun 11 04:27:42 2001
From: kb3aug@juno.com (kb3aug@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:27:42 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] gottta move the tri-ex lm354 from new york to rhode island
Message-ID: <20010610.232744.-930459.0.kb3aug@juno.com>

Jim,  When I moved I used a 26 foot U haul. The LM-354 fit in there
laying down with a little to spare. To get it in the truck, we picked the
top of the tower up and set it in the truck with a piece of 2 inch pipe a
little wider then the tower under it. Three of us picked up the bottom
and walked it right in. Take the pipe out while your transporting it  and
do the same thing to get it out. You can do the same thing with a car
trailer, but the pipe will have to be as wide as the ramps on the
trailer. Piece of cake.

73, Bill KV3R
Riverton, WV
On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 21:13:33 -0400 "Jim Spears" <n1nk@home.com> writes:
> hi gang
> 
> sure appreciate the info and hints regarding the tower base issue.  
> as soon
> as I have the detailed plans I expect to talk with local fab shops 
> to get
> the base assembly fabbed up as the consensus is that I should stay 
> as far
> away from first call as I can.  I have confidence that the base can 
> be
> fabbed.
> 
> so the next step for me is to move the tower.  it has the erection 
> fixture
> so getting it down on the ground won't be hard.  will have ample 
> labor on
> the scene to get it off the ground onto a moving platform.  vehicle 
> access
> to the yard is not a problem.  if I can get a good approach to 
> getting it
> moving this way, then dealing with it when I get it home should be 
> easier.
> 
> question:  what is the best way to haul it 200 miles?  it is about 
> 22'
> collapsed and about 1000 pounds.  first thought is a car haul 
> trailer,
> second thought is a boat trailer.  third thought is a truck of the 
> type used
> to retrieve broken cars with a tilt bed and winch.  another thought 
> is a box
> truck, uhaul has a 26' one that might allow it to fit in laying from 
> left
> front to right rear but is a high entry.
> 
> would appreciate hints and advice from those who have moved these 
> kind of
> things around.
> 
> I have a grand cherokee with class 4 hitch so should be able to tow 
> any kind
> of trailer that I come up with, if this is too small then I can use 
> my
> motorhome but I would prefer to keep it down to the cherokee.
> 
> thanks in advance.  having access to a lot of folks who have 
> wrestled with
> these problems comes in real handy!
> 
> jim spears
> N1NK
> x AB6R (from the land of tight cc7r's and local restrictions...)
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
> Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers 
> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
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> 
> 

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From w3svj@juno.com  Mon Jun 11 04:55:53 2001
From: w3svj@juno.com (w3svj@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:55:53 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] house wiring ...rfi reduction
Message-ID: <20010611.000746.-193295.0.W3SVJ@juno.com>

You might consider doing the AC wiring in BX. A tad more expensive but it
would put a steel or aluminum spiral jacket shield around your line
voltage wiring. The proper connectors should establish a pretty good
shielded ground to the distribution/service entrance panel. You could go
one step further and put it all in conduit (steel/aluminum not ENT) for
even more shielding but..... Ya gotta draw the line somewhere!


73 de Nate, W3SVJ, in Pittsburgh where it's not so smokey anymore.

________________________________________________________________
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From bjk@ihug.co.nz  Mon Jun 11 07:53:40 2001
From: bjk@ihug.co.nz (Barry Kirkwood)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:53:40 +1200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guys and things
Message-ID: <001501c0f243$404ea380$f7d7adcb@ihug.co.nz>

Been following the guy discussion with interest.
Point of information:
For us benighted folk outside the USA, what is "Phillystran"?
To continue:
I have had a lifelong interest in both sailing and amateur radio.
One thing they have in common is that products sold in these markets are
vastly overpriced compared with comparable products marketed for other
consumers. (An exception might be ham transceivers, but that is another
story.)
My mind boggles when I hear $5 US ea for what I presume to be compression
(egg) insulators to break guys in relatively modest service. I can buy whole
bags full of electric fence insulators on the expensive ZL market for $5 US.
I do not have the numbers on them, but would be surprised if they failed in
service. They have never looked like doing so for me.
The same thing goes for thimbles, shackles, rigging screws etc if you buy
them from farm or industrial suppliers rather than marine or radio
companies.
For smaller installations plain fence wire with ratchet tensioners does a
great job for guys and costs peanuts.
If Phillystran is Kevlar, then hunt around commercial fishing boat
suppliers. You might go into shock when you find how cheap these guys sell
it.
I read the QSTs of the 1930s and 1950s and marvel at how things have changed
in the USA.
By the way, when you find a way of terminating Kevlar without writing off
most of its strength and weight advantage let us know.
This will surely help us hang on to the America's Cup for another decade or
two.
73
Baz


end
Barry Kirkwood PhD ZL1DD
Signal Hill Homestay
66 Cory Road
Palm Beach
Waiheke Island 1240
NEW ZEALAND
www.waiheke.co.nz/signal.htm



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From jimsmith@home.com  Mon Jun 11 07:56:17 2001
From: jimsmith@home.com (Jim Smith)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:56:17 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cinch Jones connectors
References: <001101c0f16c$28f12c30$13a60304@n9iww> <3B23CC8B.3C19DA2D@home.com>
Message-ID: <3B246B91.98A484EE@home.com>

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.  It works now.  Maybe
something to do with their site redesign.

73 de Jim Smith	VE7FO

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From dcoolica@planet.eon.net  Mon Jun 11 07:01:33 2001
From: dcoolica@planet.eon.net (Denis Coolican)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 01:01:33 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Complex Impedances
Message-ID: <3B245EBD.9F2D59C8@planet.eon.net>

Hi, I was wondering if anyone has any software or knows where to find
software  that will convert from polar to rectangular coordinates  and
do division of complex impedances.

Regards

Denis Ve6AQ

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From kb0pyo@rconnect.com  Mon Jun 11 08:10:46 2001
From: kb0pyo@rconnect.com (Mark Brown)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 02:10:46 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guys and things
References: <001501c0f243$404ea380$f7d7adcb@ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <3B246EF6.A461C2C2@rconnect.com>

Hi All
	I sure would have hated to rely on fence wire for a guy
when the 90+mph breeze went thru last night, tore the rain
gutters off the house but NO antenna damage.
					Mark


Barry Kirkwood wrote:
> 
> Been following the guy discussion with interest.
> Point of information:
> For us benighted folk outside the USA, what is "Phillystran"?
> To continue:
> I have had a lifelong interest in both sailing and amateur radio.
> One thing they have in common is that products sold in these markets are
> vastly overpriced compared with comparable products marketed for other
> consumers. (An exception might be ham transceivers, but that is another
> story.)
> My mind boggles when I hear $5 US ea for what I presume to be compression
> (egg) insulators to break guys in relatively modest service. I can buy whole
> bags full of electric fence insulators on the expensive ZL market for $5 US.
> I do not have the numbers on them, but would be surprised if they failed in
> service. They have never looked like doing so for me.
> The same thing goes for thimbles, shackles, rigging screws etc if you buy
> them from farm or industrial suppliers rather than marine or radio
> companies.
> For smaller installations plain fence wire with ratchet tensioners does a
> great job for guys and costs peanuts.
> If Phillystran is Kevlar, then hunt around commercial fishing boat
> suppliers. You might go into shock when you find how cheap these guys sell
> it.
> I read the QSTs of the 1930s and 1950s and marvel at how things have changed
> in the USA.
> By the way, when you find a way of terminating Kevlar without writing off
> most of its strength and weight advantage let us know.
> This will surely help us hang on to the America's Cup for another decade or
> two.
> 73
> Baz
> 
> end
> Barry Kirkwood PhD ZL1DD
> Signal Hill Homestay
> 66 Cory Road
> Palm Beach
> Waiheke Island 1240
> NEW ZEALAND
> www.waiheke.co.nz/signal.htm
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com

-- 
en24gp 6m through 1296, BBQ rules, icq 41823284

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From ChrisB@prism.co.za  Mon Jun 11 08:26:35 2001
From: ChrisB@prism.co.za (Chris Burger)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:26:35 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Metal roof
Message-ID: <C84D1E1984CBD411BCEF00D0B7A7D5C90111051A@EXCHANGE>

Some anecdotal evidence that could be useful.  In 1988, I operated as
3DA0/ZS6BCR.  I used a Butternut HF2V on 160, in the middle of a corrugated
iron barn roof, perhaps 20 x 40 m in size and peaked.  

The SWR was very close to what I would have expected for a perfect ground.
The amp wouldn't load, and the exciter cut back to less than 50 W to protect
itself.  Yet, I managed to work 35 US stations at sunrise on the first
morning, in about 17 minutes!

Purely anecdotal, but it appears that a metal roof does have some redeeming
features.

Chris R. Burger
ZS6EZ


PS:  If you don't do metric units, that barn was about 40 x 80 cubits, or 10
x 20 spans...   ;^>

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From bjk@ihug.co.nz  Mon Jun 11 10:02:16 2001
From: bjk@ihug.co.nz (Barry Kirkwood)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:02:16 +1200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guys and things
References: <001501c0f243$404ea380$f7d7adcb@ihug.co.nz> <3B246EF6.A461C2C2@rconnect.com>
Message-ID: <002001c0f255$3786d8a0$f7d7adcb@ihug.co.nz>

Guess it all a matter of scale.
If talking towers 100ft with stack etc on top then obviously very careful
design is required. But I get the impression from Tower Talk that the
smaller stuff is wildly overdesigned.
FWIW my 45 ft pipe mast with rotator and Force 12 3-CS on top with 12g ht
fence wire guys at top and 20 ft with small fence insulators breaking them
and ratchet tensioners had no problem with Cyclone Drena measured at 137kph
in central Auckland City and much stronger on my cliff top qth.
I have commented about how the antenna coped well beyond its design limit,
but the new owner reports that some of the rivets now sad, so the wind left
its mark.
73

end
Barry Kirkwood PhD ZL1DD
Signal Hill Homestay
66 Cory Road
Palm Beach
Waiheke Island 1240
NEW ZEALAND
www.waiheke.co.nz/signal.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Brown <kb0pyo@rconnect.com>
To: Barry Kirkwood <bjk@ihug.co.nz>
Cc: Tower Talk <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, 11 June, 2001 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Guys and things


> Hi All
> I sure would have hated to rely on fence wire for a guy
> when the 90+mph breeze went thru last night, tore the rain
> gutters off the house but NO antenna damage.
> Mark
>
>
> Barry Kirkwood wrote:
> >
> > Been following the guy discussion with interest.
> > Point of information:
> > For us benighted folk outside the USA, what is "Phillystran"?
> > To continue:
> > I have had a lifelong interest in both sailing and amateur radio.
> > One thing they have in common is that products sold in these markets are
> > vastly overpriced compared with comparable products marketed for other
> > consumers. (An exception might be ham transceivers, but that is another
> > story.)
> > My mind boggles when I hear $5 US ea for what I presume to be
compression
> > (egg) insulators to break guys in relatively modest service. I can buy
whole
> > bags full of electric fence insulators on the expensive ZL market for $5
US.
> > I do not have the numbers on them, but would be surprised if they failed
in
> > service. They have never looked like doing so for me.
> > The same thing goes for thimbles, shackles, rigging screws etc if you
buy
> > them from farm or industrial suppliers rather than marine or radio
> > companies.
> > For smaller installations plain fence wire with ratchet tensioners does
a
> > great job for guys and costs peanuts.
> > If Phillystran is Kevlar, then hunt around commercial fishing boat
> > suppliers. You might go into shock when you find how cheap these guys
sell
> > it.
> > I read the QSTs of the 1930s and 1950s and marvel at how things have
changed
> > in the USA.
> > By the way, when you find a way of terminating Kevlar without writing
off
> > most of its strength and weight advantage let us know.
> > This will surely help us hang on to the America's Cup for another decade
or
> > two.
> > 73
> > Baz
> >
> > end
> > Barry Kirkwood PhD ZL1DD
> > Signal Hill Homestay
> > 66 Cory Road
> > Palm Beach
> > Waiheke Island 1240
> > NEW ZEALAND
> > www.waiheke.co.nz/signal.htm
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
> --
> en24gp 6m through 1296, BBQ rules, icq 41823284
>



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From bjk@ihug.co.nz  Mon Jun 11 10:36:12 2001
From: bjk@ihug.co.nz (Barry Kirkwood)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:36:12 +1200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guys and things
References: <3.0.6.32.20010611034502.00a06100@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <002601c0f259$f4fe6de0$f7d7adcb@ihug.co.nz>

See below:
end
Barry Kirkwood PhD ZL1DD
Signal Hill Homestay
66 Cory Road
Palm Beach
Waiheke Island 1240
NEW ZEALAND
www.waiheke.co.nz/signal.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Smith <n4zr@contesting.com>
To: Barry Kirkwood <bjk@ihug.co.nz>
Sent: Monday, 11 June, 2001 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Guys and things


Baz, following from the Texas Towers web page.

"Phillystran is an electrically transparent nonmetallic guy cable which
offers complete guy line isolation, eliminating the need for insulators.
It's constructed of Kevlar® fiber, covered with an extruded copolymer
jacket which provides full UV protection."

I'm unaware of the basis for your comment about terminating Kevlar, but the
current best way of terminating Phillystran involves the use of PLP grips
similar to the big grips used on EHS.  I don't see why that technique
should compromise its strength.  The previous technique with Phillystran
involved "potted" end fittings filled with 2-part polyester (?) resin.
Again, why would such a termination compromise the strength of the guy?

To my knowledge attempts to use kevlar in standing rigging in sailing boats
have been abandoned due to chronic catastrophic failures at the terminations
or where the stays are other than a straight run.   There may have been
progress, I am not up with the play these days. I assume that the demands of
tower guys are less critical than staying yacht masts.

Kevlar is well regarded for halyards, sheets and guys but there are still
problems with the terminations as it does not take kindly to small radius
bends.  Hence they usually use them for limited time in serious racing.

The 502 insulators being discussed are about the size of two fists
together, weigh a kilo or better, and are designed to take 3000 kg or so of
tension.  Not quite comparable to your electric fence egg insulators.

OK. I am not talking 3000kg loads.

A final aside -- most of the composite technology in all of the America's
Cup boats, including New Zealand's, comes from the United States.

True up to a point. A country with 3.8 million people and feeble industrial
development has certainly not  invented carbon fibre etc. On the other hand
I would claim that there is considerable local expertise in applying these
materials to the manufacture of light strong sailing craft. No one does it
better.

greatly admire the skill and tenacity of the New Zealanders in taking on
the world and winning, but it took the best technology money could buy, and
a lot of money.

The one boat NZ America's Cup defence and challenges cost a tiny fraction of
the US multi boat operations.
As for having the best technology in high modulus construction, soft foil
development etc., we plead guilty. The America's Cup rules have softened a
bit, but generally speaking the boats have to use home grown technology.
There is minimal buying in of technology from outside the country of origin
of any contestant.

But then, what was it someone said? "A boat consists of a hole in the
water, into which you pour money."

True.

73

baz ZL1DD

73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia








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From w5kp@swbell.net  Mon Jun 11 12:39:54 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 06:39:54 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guys and things
References: <3.0.6.32.20010611034502.00a06100@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
 <002601c0f259$f4fe6de0$f7d7adcb@ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <011401c0f26b$3ca8ece0$db20c1cf@jkdesktop>

And, as I'm rapidly discovering, a tower is a hole in the sky onto which one
pastes $100 bills. :-)
73, Jerry W5KP


>
> But then, what was it someone said? "A boat consists of a hole in the
> water, into which you pour money."
>



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From nx1g@top.monad.net  Mon Jun 11 12:40:15 2001
From: nx1g@top.monad.net (Craig Clark)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 07:40:15 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] ss hardware
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20010611073739.00be9340@top.monad.net>

I know we have talked about this and I had the information.......

To cut my losses (20 minutes in the archives so far) and save time, the 
name SVP of the fellow in FL that sells SS hardware for beams..............

VK9NS is looking for some "manly-stuff" :-) as he called it.

Thanks all.



I
73 Craig Clark W1JCC

Radio Bookstore & Radioware
PO Box 209
47 Fitzgerald Rd
Rindge NH 03461


Orders: 800 457 7373 - 603 899 6957
         10am- 6pm EST
Fax:    603 899 6826
         24 hours, 7 days per week
email:  nx1g@top.monad.net
         radware@radio-ware.com
sites:  http://www.radio-ware.com
         http://www.radiobooks.com


List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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From k4ja@crosslink.net  Mon Jun 11 12:50:32 2001
From: k4ja@crosslink.net (K4JA Paul)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:50:32 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] ss hardware
References: <4.3.1.2.20010611073739.00be9340@top.monad.net>
Message-ID: <001201c0f26c$b917ac20$0601a8c0@Gipper>

http://www.harbach.com/

GL K4JA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Clark" <nx1g@top.monad.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, 11 June, 2001 11:40
Subject: [TowerTalk] ss hardware


> I know we have talked about this and I had the information.......
>
> To cut my losses (20 minutes in the archives so far) and save time,
the
> name SVP of the fellow in FL that sells SS hardware for
beams..............
>
> VK9NS is looking for some "manly-stuff" :-) as he called it.
>
> Thanks all.
>
>
>
> I
> 73 Craig Clark W1JCC
>
> Radio Bookstore & Radioware
> PO Box 209
> 47 Fitzgerald Rd
> Rindge NH 03461
>
>
> Orders: 800 457 7373 - 603 899 6957
>          10am- 6pm EST
> Fax:    603 899 6826
>          24 hours, 7 days per week
> email:  nx1g@top.monad.net
>          radware@radio-ware.com
> sites:  http://www.radio-ware.com
>          http://www.radiobooks.com
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting
towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>


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From nx1g@top.monad.net  Mon Jun 11 13:20:02 2001
From: nx1g@top.monad.net (Craig Clark)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 08:20:02 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] SS HARDWARE
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20010611081930.00baf2f0@top.monad.net>

GOT MY ANSWER! THANKS K4JA!

73 Craig Clark W1JCC

Radio Bookstore & Radioware
PO Box 209
47 Fitzgerald Rd
Rindge NH 03461


Orders: 800 457 7373 - 603 899 6957
         10am- 6pm EST
Fax:    603 899 6826
         24 hours, 7 days per week
email:  nx1g@top.monad.net
         radware@radio-ware.com
sites:  http://www.radio-ware.com
         http://www.radiobooks.com


List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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From k5go@alltel.net  Mon Jun 11 13:30:40 2001
From: k5go@alltel.net (Stan Stockton)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 07:30:40 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <026401c0f272$54a580e0$071a66a6@server>

About a decade ago I acquired a little broadcast tower and am now wanting to
put it up.  There are eight sections, 20 foot long each, about 18 inches on
a side, solid rod legs about 1.5 inches in diameter, and each section weighs
420 pounds.  Any ideas on the construction of a gin pole that would handle
this thing would be appreciated.

Stan, K5GO



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From n2mg@contesting.com  Mon Jun 11 13:33:16 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 11 Jun 2001 05:33:16 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Galvanized Hardware
Message-ID: <20010611123316.16955.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>

While we're on the topic of hardware - is there a decent source for Rohn-like galvanized hardware other than Rohn itself?

I'd especially like to get my hands on some of the galvanized U-bolts that are used around tower legs to hold some custom side mounts, but am also interested in one-off bolts/nuts for things like guy assemblies, etc.

73 Mike N2MG

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 

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From rthorne@tcac.net  Mon Jun 11 13:47:12 2001
From: rthorne@tcac.net (Richard Thorne)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 07:47:12 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <026401c0f272$54a580e0$071a66a6@server>
Message-ID: <3B24BDD0.B13EB680@tcac.net>

Hi Stan:

I think its called a crane :-).  I've helped put up several 25g and 45g towers in my ham
career.  The 45g sections usually required 2 if not 3 people to pull the section up
safely.  I'm sure some sort of winch would be required to pull up 420lbs assuming you
could find/manufacture a gin pole that would handle it.

Stan Stockton wrote:

> About a decade ago I acquired a little broadcast tower and am now wanting to
> put it up.  There are eight sections, 20 foot long each, about 18 inches on
> a side, solid rod legs about 1.5 inches in diameter, and each section weighs
> 420 pounds.  Any ideas on the construction of a gin pole that would handle
> this thing would be appreciated.
>
> Stan, K5GO
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com

--
Richard Thorne
Advo Companies, Inc.
806-342-0600



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From hasben@ix.netcom.com  Mon Jun 11 13:56:31 2001
From: hasben@ix.netcom.com (Richard Hassell-Bennett)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 07:56:31 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Galvanized Hardware
References: <20010611123316.16955.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <001901c0f275$f0adeec0$6901323f@computer>

Try Stan

W7NI@easystreet.com

de

Richard K0XG        www.qth.com/k0xg  for BIG tower hardware and fixtures


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Gilmer - N2MG" <n2mg@contesting.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 7:33 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Galvanized Hardware


> While we're on the topic of hardware - is there a decent source for
Rohn-like galvanized hardware other than Rohn itself?
>
> I'd especially like to get my hands on some of the galvanized U-bolts that
are used around tower legs to hold some custom side mounts, but am also
interested in one-off bolts/nuts for things like guy assemblies, etc.
>
> 73 Mike N2MG
>
> ________________________________________________
> PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart.
> http://www.peoplepc.com
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>


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From ford@cmgate.com  Mon Jun 11 06:29:08 2001
From: ford@cmgate.com (Ford Peterson)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 00:29:08 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Quadrifilar antenna
Message-ID: <000401c0f27d$af5e4ac0$0ded83d1@office>

I have been reading Walt Maxwell's new book Reflections II.  He describes a
"Quadrifilar Helix" antenna used for satellite work.  Anybody played with
these babies?  I've been modeling the design and it looks quite promising.

180 degree az pattern over almost 175 degrees of elevation.   Wow!  It's a
cloud burner but just the ticket for LEO (Low Earth Orbit) satellite work.
I've been looking at making one but the materials are a problem.  There was
an article in QST a while back that described making one but frankly, the
cheesy construction leaves a bit to be desired.  In addition, there are
several aspects of the Maxwell paper that lead one to believe that the QST
version is a hoax (it can't possibly work at the top of a tower).

If somebody has experience with these antennas, I'd love to hear from them
direct.  Perhaps we can share notes, models, etc.

Ford-N0FP
ford@cmgate.com




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From n3ue@arrl.net  Mon Jun 11 15:07:25 2001
From: n3ue@arrl.net (Ed Wolf)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:07:25 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] gottta move the tri-ex lm354 from new york to rhode island
In-Reply-To: <009a01c0f213$db6e1920$7e04fea9@ports1.ri.home.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJILFGLMCOLGHAFODGEIDCFAA.n3ue@arrl.net>

I used my boat trailer to pick up my TX472 from California
and bring it back to Pennsylvania with no problems.


Ed Wolf - ars:N3UE - NA40+TR.PA
http://members.home.net/wolfie132/
http://www.breezeshooters.net
http://www.breezeshooters.com


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Jim Spears
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 9:14 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] gottta move the tri-ex lm354 from new york to rhode
island


hi gang

sure appreciate the info and hints regarding the tower base issue.  as soon
as I have the detailed plans I expect to talk with local fab shops to get
the base assembly fabbed up as the consensus is that I should stay as far
away from first call as I can.  I have confidence that the base can be
fabbed.

so the next step for me is to move the tower.  it has the erection fixture
so getting it down on the ground won't be hard.  will have ample labor on
the scene to get it off the ground onto a moving platform.  vehicle access
to the yard is not a problem.  if I can get a good approach to getting it
moving this way, then dealing with it when I get it home should be easier.

question:  what is the best way to haul it 200 miles?  it is about 22'
collapsed and about 1000 pounds.  first thought is a car haul trailer,
second thought is a boat trailer.  third thought is a truck of the type used
to retrieve broken cars with a tilt bed and winch.  another thought is a box
truck, uhaul has a 26' one that might allow it to fit in laying from left
front to right rear but is a high entry.

would appreciate hints and advice from those who have moved these kind of
things around.

I have a grand cherokee with class 4 hitch so should be able to tow any kind
of trailer that I come up with, if this is too small then I can use my
motorhome but I would prefer to keep it down to the cherokee.

thanks in advance.  having access to a lot of folks who have wrestled with
these problems comes in real handy!

jim spears
N1NK
x AB6R (from the land of tight cc7r's and local restrictions...)


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From ka4inm@qsl.net  Mon Jun 11 15:15:35 2001
From: ka4inm@qsl.net (Ron KA4INM Youvan)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:15:35 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <026401c0f272$54a580e0$071a66a6@server> <3B24BDD0.B13EB680@tcac.net>
Message-ID: <005701c0f280$fd14ac20$a72e2526@wtog105>

Hi all:
snip
> career.  The 45g sections usually required 2 if not 3 people to pull the
section up
> safely.
snip

  I've used a pickup truck backing away from the tower
(so the driver can see the section going up, HT in hand)
    (using a diverter pulley if necessary)
with the load line tied to the FRAME under the engine,
going to a pulley tied to the foundation of the tower.
Gin poles are big things that you rent.

         73 (= Best Regards) de: (= this is) Ron ka4inm@qsl.net
       Please visit my HAM web site at: http://www.qsl.net/ka4inm



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From K4BEV@aol.com  Mon Jun 11 15:23:41 2001
From: K4BEV@aol.com (K4BEV@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:23:41 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <f7.b2ec3d5.28562e6d@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/11/01 09:16:36 Central Daylight Time, ka4inm@qsl.net 
writes:

<< Gin poles are big things that you rent. >>

Where would you rent one?
They are pretty expensive pieces of equipment for one time use.
Thanks in advance,
Don - K4BEV

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From w2fca@qsl.net  Mon Jun 11 16:02:00 2001
From: w2fca@qsl.net (Frank & Barb Ayers)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:02:00 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <01c0f287$77baa000$80c01a26@default>

Richard Thorne wrote -
>I think its called a crane :-).  I've helped put up several 25g and
>45g towers in my ham career.  The 45g sections usually
>required 2 if not 3 people to pull the section up
>safely.  I'm sure some sort of winch would be required to pull up
>420lbs assuming you could find/manufacture a gin pole that would handle it.

Another thought. A gin pole hefty enough to handle that kind of load on a 20
foot section would  itself be quite unwieldy to raise after each new section
is put in place.

Frank
W2FCA



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From KD4OL@aol.com  Mon Jun 11 16:55:55 2001
From: KD4OL@aol.com (KD4OL@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:55:55 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Inquiry - Tower Loading on Rohn 45 or 55
Message-ID: <10d.12ef2e9.2856440b@aol.com>

I am interested in erecting a Rohn 45 or 55 tower in the 100' - 140' height.  
I would like to install my large 10 meter Telrex, 10 element on it, plus a 
couple of other smaller antennas above it.

The Telrex has a wind loading of about 12.5 square feet (44' boom).  The Rohn 
specs call for no more than 12.7 square feet and 15.1 for 90 mph for the Rohn 
45 and 55 series, respectively at the 120 foot level.  Thus, it would appear 
that this Telrex would provide for not much margin of safety in a 90 mph wind 
and might be too much for the tower in higher winds.  Also, anything smaller, 
vhf antennas stacked above the Telrex might cause it to be overloaded for 90 
mph winds.

Question - I see, from time to time, many DX stations with several large 
antennas distributed up their towers which appear to overload them.  I 
realize that the limit on the Rohn tower is for a load of that magnitude at 
the apex, not over the entire tower.  How can I determine what additional 
antennas I might install on this type of tower either at the apex or stack 
them with some sort of "ring" system lower than the apex?

I welcome all knowledgeable thoughts on this.

Thank you,
Hank Smith
KD4OL

  

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From VE6JY Don Moman" <ve6jy@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca  Mon Jun 11 16:08:46 2001
From: VE6JY Don Moman" <ve6jy@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (VE6JY Don Moman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:08:46 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <026401c0f272$54a580e0$071a66a6@server>
Message-ID: <008301c0f288$97047660$a3cea1c6@ve6jy>

A gin pole to handle this would be, by itself, quite a heavy and cumbersome
item. Often a smaller gin pole is used to erect the main pole - which in
many cases is a small tower itself.  A lot of work any way you do it.

Certainly a crane, if you can get one to the site, is a quick and often far
more inexpensive solution than you might think. And there are far fewer
things to go wrong, an important safety issue.

I put up a similarly sized and constructed tower last fall - they are very
rigid and in my case, was easily lifted in one piece. I think I picked it up
at the 110 level or so and bending was minimal, even with a several hundred
pound rotor on the top.  Although preparation work took weeks, the actual
lift takes only an hour or so.  Most of the time is actually getting the
guys attached and making sure the tower is safe and plumb enough to climb so
one can unhook the crane.

73 Don
VE6JY


> About a decade ago I acquired a little broadcast tower and am now wanting
to
> put it up.  There are eight sections, 20 foot long each, about 18 inches
on
> a side, solid rod legs about 1.5 inches in diameter, and each section
weighs
> 420 pounds.  Any ideas on the construction of a gin pole that would handle
> this thing would be appreciated.
>
> Stan, K5GO
>
>



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From steve@oakcom.com  Mon Jun 11 17:59:19 2001
From: steve@oakcom.com (Steve Maki)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:59:19 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
In-Reply-To: <026401c0f272$54a580e0$071a66a6@server>
References: <026401c0f272$54a580e0$071a66a6@server>
Message-ID: <nvr9itg8m1hetsma81s9l80tq5l5fr5sch@4ax.com>

"Stan Stockton" <k5go@alltel.net> wrote:

>About a decade ago I acquired a little broadcast tower and am now wanting to
>put it up.  There are eight sections, 20 foot long each, about 18 inches on
>a side, solid rod legs about 1.5 inches in diameter, and each section weighs
>420 pounds.  Any ideas on the construction of a gin pole that would handle
>this thing would be appreciated.

As you can guess, because you've handled the sections (too many
times probably :-)), this stuff will require a good stout gin
pole.

50' of Rohn 45 makes a nice gin pole for handling 20' sections
of the 400lb-600lb variety. The 50' gin pole is lashed to the tower
with say 27'-30' below, and 20'-23' above the top. That way, it's
easy to pull the gin pole up into place with no tendency to flip
over.

It can be lashed to the tower with strong rope; because the two
lash points are 30' apart, a little slop is not fatal to the
operation. Make sure that there is a little offset built into
the lashing system. For instance, you might attach a horizontal
2"x2" angle to the gin pole at each of the two lash points

It's best to have two independant pulleys and winches - one for
the top of the gin pole, and one for the top of the tower (to
pull the gin pole up into place).

That said, I think you would be better off assembling it on the
ground and having a crane pop it up, assuming a crane can get
into the area. If everything was ready, a half day total of
crane time should do it. Around here, that would be $1000 or
so.

73,
--
Steve K8LX

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From asfco@nycap.rr.com  Mon Jun 11 17:57:07 2001
From: asfco@nycap.rr.com (asfco)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:57:07 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cement Caps
Message-ID: <3B24F862.54D6C937@nycap.rr.com>

I have installed the 'wonder pole' for my e-z way tower  but I am
wondering is a concrete cap really necessary??
according to the origional instruction manual a cap is not mentioned ..
seems to me a cap of say 6-8" x 3'  would be of little benefit .
this mounting post is rock solid just the way it is
comments??
Steve W2GB


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From UpTheTower@aol.com  Mon Jun 11 20:17:25 2001
From: UpTheTower@aol.com (UpTheTower@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:17:25 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Admin - Larry Bush quiery
Message-ID: <47.c658cd9.28567345@aol.com>

    I'm trying to get in touch with Larry Bush, W5NCD. If anyone has his 
email address, I'd really appreciate it. Tnx.

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
TT Administrator

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From mdowning@wm7d.net  Mon Jun 11 20:29:11 2001
From: mdowning@wm7d.net (Mark A. Downing)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:29:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] Admin - Larry Bush quiery
In-Reply-To: <47.c658cd9.28567345@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0106111228560.10320-100000@www.wm7d.net>

I have w5ncd@bigfoot.com

I don't know how current that one is...

--Mark

On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 UpTheTower@aol.com wrote:

> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:17:25 EDT
> From: UpTheTower@aol.com
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Admin - Larry Bush quiery
> 
>     I'm trying to get in touch with Larry Bush, W5NCD. If anyone has his 
> email address, I'd really appreciate it. Tnx.
> 
> Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
> TT Administrator
> 

-- 
http://www.wm7d.net/
http://www.wm7d.net/fcc_uls/ulsquery.html


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From k4sqr@juno.com  Mon Jun 11 20:37:21 2001
From: k4sqr@juno.com (k4sqr@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:37:21 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Fw: Re: FAQ eliminated?
Message-ID: <20010611.153726.-16507497.0.K4SQR@juno.com>

Hopefully the Stacking separation distances and other noteworthy FAQ's
will be added to the new Hy-Gain website soon.

When I gave the referral, I was unaware Hy-Gain's newly designed web site
had deleted the FAQ section. Response to my request below.

73,

Jim Miller, K4SQR
http://www.comteksystems.com
4-Square Experts, Stack Yagi
& Remote Antenna Switching Systems

--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Richard Stubbs" <mfjcustserv@mfjenterprises.com>
To: <k4sqr@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:10:29 -0500
Subject: Re: FAQ eliminated?
Message-ID: <017201c0f299$6df0f580$6a00a8c0@mfjenterprises.com>
References: <20010610.135124.-495565.1.K4SQR@juno.com>

sent your correspondence to the webmaster.  i hope we get this problem
fixed.  thanks for calling it to our attention. rich, kc5nsz.
----- Original Message -----
From: <k4sqr@juno.com>
To: <mfjcustserv@mfjenterprises.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 12:48 PM
Subject: FAQ eliminated?


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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Mon Jun 11 20:39:52 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:39:52 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] New Source for Yagi Ubolts
Message-ID: <1010511153952.PAA02345@gate.iterated.com>

On 5/31/01 7:43 PM, David J. Windisch at davidw@copper.net wrote:

>It has been my experience, over the last 30 years, that the s/s I've used on
>antennas, subject to the magnet test, has not reacted with al antenna parts.
>It's still shiny-bright.  My 'control' s/s, not used in antennas because it
>was attracted, does have discoloration.   Should have mentioned that that
>'magnet test' came from the experience of chem-metallurgy types at
>Westinghouse in Baltimore.

Dave,

Apparently you haven't followed the origin of W7NI's hardware.

Original Rohn Tower bolts are either hot-dip galvanized, or in the case 
of Rohn 25 bolts, plated. Now, the plated bolts/nuts don't last terribly 
long in the weather (depending on your conditions) because the plating 
isn't thick enough.

Using stainless isn't advised. Although stainless is certainly a lot more 
corrosion-resistant, it isn't nearly as strong as other steel. And 
strength is certainly a key consideration for tower-leg bolts.

Stan found out about this mechanical galvanizing, which appears to offer 
the protection level of hot-dip galvanizing with much greater uniformity. 
Some Rohn U-bolts have the same problem (plated, not galvanized), so Stan 
offers these as well.

This hardware offers better strength than stainless, along with the 
corrossion protection of hot-dip galvanization.

So much for puffery. I'm pleased that Stan is extending his line of 
mechanically galvanized hardware. I've bought some myself. I haven't 
weather-tested it yet (since my tower is sitting in my basement still).

Let's not be so quick to denigrate things that we don't understand.



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From k1vr@juno.com  Mon Jun 11 20:34:43 2001
From: k1vr@juno.com (Fred Hopengarten)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:34:43 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna database
Message-ID: <20010611.154919.-417011.10.k1vr@juno.com>

On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 21:06:37 -0400 "EUGENE  SMAR"
<SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net> writes:

>     What do you-all think of this idea?  Among us we probably own 
> every
> conceivable Yagi, log-periodic, and other antenna, old and new, HF 
> through
> UHF, made of aluminum and presenting appreciable wind area known to 
> hamdom. Most (some) of us probably still have the assembly/instruction 
> manuals.  How
> 'bout if one owner of each antenna model volunteers to calculate the 
> area for the boom, element, mounting plates, etc. for his selected 
> skyhook(s) and post the figures here on TT? 

K1VR:  Terrific idea. May I suggest a refinement? Perhaps someone would
care to establish the standard spreadsheet so that all calculations can
be reconfirmed, and, in so far as someone wishes to apply a different
formula for effective windload, that person need only start with the
existing spreadsheet of measurements. So, under this plan, every
calaculation would not be a simple number, but would be posted to a web
site (do we have a volunteer?) as a *.XLS spreadsheet. For example:
HyGain TH6DXX.xls, Force 12 C3SS.xls, etc.


>      I know someone out there (probably from here in the U.S.) will 
> probably bring up the liability issue, e.g., I bought the antenna based
on 
> TT's figures and it turns out the figures were wrong, etc.  However, 
> let's all agree that, if we do this, the info is just another set of
data 
> points to be used with other sources of info that we evaluate in making
a 
> purchase decision.

K1VR: The web page owner may choose to post the following disclaimer:
"The author of the spreadsheet and the web site owner make no
representations as to the accuracy of the data presented and specifically
state that the data provided may not be relied upon for purposes
connected to safety. Users are cautioned that the author is not likely to
be a professional engineer, is not likely to be licensed in the user's
jurisdiction, and, in any event, he or she intends no relationship to the
user whatsoever that may result in liability. Mistakes are a real
possibility." 


Fred Hopengarten K1VR                        
hopengarten@post.harvard.edu
Six Willarch Road * Lincoln, MA 01773-5105
781/259-0088 *eFax 419/858-2421

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Mon Jun 11 21:30:42 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:30:42 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rebar
Message-ID: <1010511163042.QAA07597@gate.iterated.com>

On 6/4/01 8:06 AM, Mike Gilmer - N2MG at n2mg@contesting.com wrote:

>I read here often that folks recommend that rebar be kept "inside" the 
>concrete (and by several inches) - away from the nasty, wet soil in an 
>effort to protect it from rust.

Three inches on all sides.

Concrete isn't so porous that water can infiltrate three inches easily.



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From paulc@mediaone.net  Mon Jun 11 21:57:50 2001
From: paulc@mediaone.net (Paul Christensen)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:57:50 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna database
References: <20010611.154919.-417011.10.k1vr@juno.com>
Message-ID: <015001c0f2b9$3f9b7c80$6401a8c0@se.mediaone.net>


> K1VR: The web page owner may choose to post the following disclaimer:
> "The author of the spreadsheet and the web site owner make no
> representations as to the accuracy of the data presented and specifically
> state that the data provided may not be relied upon for purposes
> connected to safety. Users are cautioned that the author is not likely to
> be a professional engineer, is not likely to be licensed in the user's
> jurisdiction, and, in any event, he or she intends no relationship to the
> user whatsoever that may result in liability. Mistakes are a real
> possibility."

Not to turn this into a Torts class, but you may want to add language to
affirmatively protect yourself from any injury or damages resulting from the
use of the data:

"...and User further agrees to indemnify the Web Page Owner and Author
against any claim arising from the User's use of any presented or published
data which results in any direct, consequential, or incidental damages, harm
or injury."

Some courts may find a public-policy issue with any of the above, but it
certainly can't hurt to be cautious.  Of course, this is not meant to be
construed as legal advice. Consult your attorney.

-Paul



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From plplants@sgi.net  Mon Jun 11 22:30:35 2001
From: plplants@sgi.net (Paul Plants)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:30:35 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <01c0f287$77baa000$80c01a26@default>
Message-ID: <003901c0f2bd$c08bc4e0$de8110ac@sgi.net>

> Another thought. A gin pole hefty enough to handle that kind of load on a
20
> foot section would  itself be quite unwieldy to raise after each new
section
> is put in place.
>
> Frank
> W2FCA


We have a ginpole that is about 30 feet long and is about 4" in diameter. We
lift into place with a Rohn 25 ginpole. Seems funny using a ginpole to lift
a ginpole in to place. We raised a tower a few years ago that was 4 feet on
a side, thats what we built the larger ginpole for.
Paul
N3WMV


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From ka4inm@qsl.net  Mon Jun 11 22:30:42 2001
From: ka4inm@qsl.net (Ron KA4INM Youvan)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:30:42 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <01c0f287$77baa000$80c01a26@default>
Message-ID: <3B253882.99B1946C@qsl.net>

Hi all:

> Another thought. A gin pole hefty enough to handle that kind of load on a 20
> foot section would  itself be quite unwieldy to raise after each new section
> is put in place.

  Don't forget you `pick' a section a couple of inches from the center 
in such a way that it is balanced with the end YOU want down on the 
heavy end. This keeps you from having to fight the section to get it
into 
place.  A 30 foot gin pole works fine placing 20 foot sections.
	(20' below and 10+ a few inches above)
(A real gin pole, not 30' of tower {which can be used} slides on a
`sled' 
as it is `jumped' up the tower.)

  73 (= Best Regards) de: Ron ka4inm@qsl.net  SENT Time and Date are UTC
      I upgraded to LINUX, the more I use it, the more I love it.
        It doesn't do everything for you, you must program it.
         Visit my HAM Web SITE at: http://www.qsl.net/ka4inm

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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Mon Jun 11 22:45:42 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:45:42 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wind Loading redux, PP Motors
Message-ID: <1010511174542.RAA17377@gate.iterated.com>

On 6/8/01 5:10 PM, K7GCO@aol.com at K7GCO@aol.com wrote:

>used no TT Band Aids and have spent the .....
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This seems to be a catch-phrase for you, Ken. You've used it in several 
messages.

Frankly, I've been a charter member of TowerTalk (virutally) since it's 
inception, and I've never seen anyone advocate any "band aid" approach to 
tower or antenna design.

Indeed, the governing phylosophy of this list appears to be to do things 
RIGHT. Doing the job right often means it costs more, but there are 
substantial dangers to equipment, property or life doing it any other way.

--

Now, prop-pitch rotators are most definitely over-rated for the vast 
majority of tower installations, so it is no wonder that they perform 
superbly in that service. They are also as scarce as hens-teeth. And 
expensive. 

I'm sure your 55-year-old prop pitch rotators will be giving fine service 
to your grandchildren's heirs, but not all of us can afford, nor need 
them.

The new bell-housing rotators are also absurdly expensive, but it is a 
lot easier to find used ones in servicable condition, or to bring back 
one to condition yourself. (My Ham-M cost me less than $50 recently, plus 
a couple hours of work to service it) If a few aerodynamic tricks make 
the bell-housing rotators perform better, that's not a "band-aid", but a 
good idea. Let's save those prop-pitches for when we really need them. 



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Mon Jun 11 21:16:54 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:16:54 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609183646.00a99390@127.0.0.1> <4.3.2.7.2.20010609193241.00aa9670@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <3B252735.8A326666@easystreet.com>

Stu Greene wrote:

> Bill, irrespective of the wind direction which can change momentarily,
> surface area is surface area, so that an accurate measurement should be the
> sum of half the boom area plus half the element area.
>
> I wonder if antenna manufacturers, when calculating wind area and
> advertising it, do it your way or mine or perhaps something a bit more
> arcane.  I'm sure that someone will straighten out the error in my logic.
>
>                                 73   Stu

I would think you would want to consider the "worst case" situation when determining an
antenna wind area.  If the worst case is when the elements are broadside to the wind,
then you would want to consider ALL of the element wind area.  If the worst case is when
the boom is broadside to the wind, then you would want to consider ALL of the boom
area.  One or the other will be the real "worst case".  If you take half of one and add
it to half of the other, you result will be somewhat LESS than the real worst case, it
seems to me.

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com




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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Mon Jun 11 22:33:38 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:33:38 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609183646.00a99390@127.0.0.1> <003b01c0f14a$834b54c0$4a0c2c42@billspiii> <3B2353A6.FB4B1A53@gloryroad.net> <005901c0f1b7$56d54320$0201a8c0@any>
Message-ID: <3B253932.746812CD@easystreet.com>

WA9ALS - John wrote:

> On a serious note, I don't think antenna manufacturers lie to us about stuff
> like wind surface area.  What's really more important than any one claim is
> whether antenna, tower, and rotator manufacturers are using the same methods
> to calculate surface area of the things that they are testing!  73

I think John is being pretty generous with antenna manufacturers.  I did a little
research into my extensive files on antenna brochures from back as far as 30 years ago
and found the following examples of wind area claims for essentially the same 4 element
20 meter monobander:

December 1968, Hy-Gain Brochure, the claim is 12.8 square feet for the 204BA.

Sometime around 1971, I sent for a Wilson brochure and it claimed their 4 element 20
called an "M420" (almost exactly the same dimensions as the Hy-Gain 204BA) to have a
wind area of 8.0 square feet.

June 1973, Hy-Gain Brochure, the claim is now 3.9 square feet for the 204BA.

Sometime around 1974, Wilson put out a price list including specifications.  Now the
area claim for the Wilson "M204" (they changed model numbers for the antenna, too) is
3.9 square feet.

A 1977 Wilson brochure now claims the Model M-420 to have 7.4 square feet.  This
brochure also includes Wilson's line of tubular crankup towers which forced them to be
more realistic since they also put wind load capability specs on their towers.  They
couldn't very well have a Wilson antenna causing the failure of a Wilson tower when both
were within their OWN ratings, could they?

Sometime around 1980 (brochure is not dated but obviously newer than the June 1973
Hy-Gain brochure), Hy-Gain claims the 204BA to be 7.27 square feet.

Sometime around 1985 (brochure not dated, but obviously newer than the approximately
1980 Hy-Gain brochure because they have now switched to stainless hardware), Hy-Gain
claims to 204BA to be 7.3 square feet.

I have all of the above original brochures in my file and what you see here is copied
directly from my file copies.

It is pretty obvious to me that what was going on between Hy-Gain and Wilson was a
specsmanship war.  It had little or nothing to do with truth in advertising.  I knew in
1973 when I saw the Hy-Gain brochure that claimed the 204BA was only 3.9 square feet
that this was all BS and none of it could be trusted.  Not much has changed in the last
30 years to inspire me to trust antenna manufacturers much more than I did then.  Hey,
if we actually HAD a 100% truthful antenna manufacturer, could he sell enough antennas
to stay in business?  I doubt it . . .  Most of the hams that I know would rather buy BS
than the truth and most antenna manufacturers are well aware of that fact . . .

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com



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From dxdog@rcn.com  Tue Jun 12 01:09:45 2001
From: dxdog@rcn.com (Jerry Keller)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:09:45 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Liability Disclaimers???
References: <20010611.154919.-417011.10.k1vr@juno.com> <015001c0f2b9$3f9b7c80$6401a8c0@se.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <01b201c0f2d3$fd305bc0$1f603bd0@z7r0l6>

Some questions for Paul :

Are the risks you speak of "real"?

Why would anyone.... after reading your "disclaimer language".... be willing
to accept the liability risk that you so clearly describe?

If these risks are "real"...(especially the risk that despite the disclaimer
some judge may rule that liability exists anyway, as a matter of "public
policy")....then wouldn't it be foolish for anyone to publish anything of an
engineering nature that people could possibly rely on to their detriment?

Are you saying the writers are not really protected by the disclaimer
language in all cases?

Mind you, please, I'm not saying they are or they are not.... I'm just
asking the questions that arise out of your posting....I frankly don't know
how great the risk is or isn't... but even the slightest possiblity that my
familiy's personal assets might be at risk due to some advice I offered
would be enough to deter me.... if the risk were "real".

Jerry K3MGT

"A strange game.... the only way to win is not to play"...."War Games"

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Christensen <paulc@mediaone.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Antenna database


>
> > K1VR: The web page owner may choose to post the following disclaimer:
> > "The author of the spreadsheet and the web site owner make no
> > representations as to the accuracy of the data presented and
specifically
> > state that the data provided may not be relied upon for purposes
> > connected to safety. Users are cautioned that the author is not likely
to
> > be a professional engineer, is not likely to be licensed in the user's
> > jurisdiction, and, in any event, he or she intends no relationship to
the
> > user whatsoever that may result in liability. Mistakes are a real
> > possibility."
>
> Not to turn this into a Torts class, but you may want to add language to
> affirmatively protect yourself from any injury or damages resulting from
the
> use of the data:
>
> "...and User further agrees to indemnify the Web Page Owner and Author
> against any claim arising from the User's use of any presented or
published
> data which results in any direct, consequential, or incidental damages,
harm
> or injury."
>
> Some courts may find a public-policy issue with any of the above, but it
> certainly can't hurt to be cautious.  Of course, this is not meant to be
> construed as legal advice. Consult your attorney.
>
> -Paul
>
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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>
>


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From w1uk@earthlink.net  Tue Jun 12 01:13:34 2001
From: w1uk@earthlink.net (W1UK)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:13:34 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Galvanized Hardware
References: <20010611123316.16955.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <008a01c0f2d4$87bbe340$38269718@cpe.charterne.com>

Try New River Nets marine supply.  They have all kinds of galvanized and
stainless hardware.  Also a great source for low priced Wellington PolyDac
rope.

http://www.newrivernets.com/


73 -- W1UK


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Gilmer - N2MG" <n2mg@contesting.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 8:33 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Galvanized Hardware


> While we're on the topic of hardware - is there a decent source for
Rohn-like galvanized hardware other than Rohn itself?
>
> I'd especially like to get my hands on some of the galvanized U-bolts that
are used around tower legs to hold some custom side mounts, but am also
interested in one-off bolts/nuts for things like guy assemblies, etc.
>
> 73 Mike N2MG
>
> ________________________________________________
> PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart.
> http://www.peoplepc.com
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>
>


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From steve@oakcom.com  Tue Jun 12 01:58:51 2001
From: steve@oakcom.com (Steve Maki)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:58:51 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
In-Reply-To: <3B253882.99B1946C@qsl.net>
References: <01c0f287$77baa000$80c01a26@default> <3B253882.99B1946C@qsl.net>
Message-ID: <7upait093250s809odejgtk8f3msdrfpos@4ax.com>

Ron KA4INM Youvan <ka4inm@qsl.net> wrote:

>(A real gin pole, not 30' of tower {which can be used} slides on a
>`sled' 
>as it is `jumped' up the tower.)

Not neccessarily.

The big 1000'+ broadcast towers are installed using 50' or
60' gin poles made out of tower (appropiately sized of course).
They do not slide in a bracket, but simply get lashed up at
the top of each succeeding section. They DO have a nice swivel
pulley head at the top, but otherwise are nothing fancy. Still,
I would call them "real" gin poles :-)

73
--
Steve K8LX

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From W8JI@contesting.com  Tue Jun 12 03:07:31 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:07:31 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guys and things
In-Reply-To: <001501c0f243$404ea380$f7d7adcb@ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <200106120110.f5C1A3903292@paris.akorn.net>

> story.) My mind boggles when I hear $5 US ea for what I presume to be
> compression (egg) insulators to break guys in relatively modest service.

Actually the service is too stressfull for plastic compression 
insulators. They would cold-flow, cut through, or simply break. I 
have problems with my Beverage antennas (only 14 gauge wire) 
and fence insulators.

$5 each is a bit much for insulators in any quantity, although it is 
reasonable for small lots. 502 insulators are easily found new for 
under $3, but that generally requires purchasing a hundred 
insulators. 

> tensioners does a great job for guys and costs peanuts. If Phillystran is
> Kevlar, then hunt around commercial fishing boat suppliers. 

Like our oil prices (and electricity when deregulated), suppliers 
charge what the market will pay. Cost is never related to 
manufacturing plus distribution cost, our system is based on what 
the market will stand. If you are the only supplier, you can set the 
price high.

I simply won't pay the price of phillystran because I can do a steel 
and insulator system for substantially less investment. I purchase 
enough material that I obtain grips, guy line, and insulators directly 
from manufacturers.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From ford@cmgate.com  Tue Jun 12 04:16:14 2001
From: ford@cmgate.com (Ford Peterson)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:16:14 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Circular Polarization
Message-ID: <002201c0f2ee$0a497b60$95ed83d1@office>

I am quite familiar with the vertical and horizontal polarization.  The
transmitting and receiving antennas need to be alike for best transmission.
I am hoping somebody can shed some light on circular polarization.

In several articles on circular polarization, the discussion often aludes to
the need for correct alignment but I haven't found information on "how" to
align the polarizations.

If the transmitter uses left hand circular (LHC) does the receiver use Left
or Right Hand Circular?  The application involves satellite work.  Is there
a standard used on the various birds?  One article suggested needing to
reverse the polarization on transmit.  What's up with that?

If any gurus out there in towertalk-land can provide me with some simple
guidelines on how to orient a base station antenna, I'd appreciate it.

Ford-N0FP
ford@cmgate.com




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From k7awb@qwest.net  Tue Jun 12 04:24:38 2001
From: k7awb@qwest.net (Stephen Sala)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:24:38 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] INSULATED MAST
Message-ID: <00a501c0f2ef$36626ee0$0200000a@qwest.net>

I recently bought an M2 eight element fm 2 meter beam  to install at the top
of my mast on my tower.  Where do I purchase an insulated mast section for
the 2 meter beam that I can connect to my 2 inch steel mast at the top of
the tower?  I don't remember reading in the m2 literature  that I needed an
insulated mast though.  But, I don't want to affect the pattern.
Steve K7AWB



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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Tue Jun 12 00:56:18 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:56:18 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <01c0f287$77baa000$80c01a26@default>
Message-ID: <3B255AA2.10F16789@easystreet.com>

You can always use an ordinary gin pole to set the big gin pole in place.

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

Frank & Barb Ayers wrote:

> Richard Thorne wrote -
> >I think its called a crane :-).  I've helped put up several 25g and
> >45g towers in my ham career.  The 45g sections usually
> >required 2 if not 3 people to pull the section up
> >safely.  I'm sure some sort of winch would be required to pull up
> >420lbs assuming you could find/manufacture a gin pole that would handle it.
>
> Another thought. A gin pole hefty enough to handle that kind of load on a 20
> foot section would  itself be quite unwieldy to raise after each new section
> is put in place.
>
> Frank
> W2FCA
>
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>
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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jun 12 05:23:15 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:23:15 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] TIC rotator assembly
Message-ID: <37.1666af31.2856f333@aol.com>

Howdy, TowerTalkians --

    While I've taken a TIC ring rotator down, I've never installed one. Can 
one person on the tower install it by himself or does it take two people? I 
suspect two since it appears that there's a bunch of times you might need 3 
or 4 hands during the installation. Tnx for your input.

Cheers,     Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From n3rr@erols.com  Tue Jun 12 04:30:23 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:30:23 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] TIC rotator assembly
References: <37.1666af31.2856f333@aol.com>
Message-ID: <015e01c0f2f0$041f3200$a0012c42@billspiii>

Steve,

I've installed them (5 of them) by myself, with only me on the tower, with a
ground crew that hauled up parts as I asked for them.
These were the large 1032 models.  The smaller model 1022 should be much
easier.

Bill, N3RR

----- Original Message -----
From: <K7LXC@aol.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 5:23 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] TIC rotator assembly


> Howdy, TowerTalkians --
>
>     While I've taken a TIC ring rotator down, I've never installed one.
Can
> one person on the tower install it by himself or does it take two people?
I
> suspect two since it appears that there's a bunch of times you might need
3
> or 4 hands during the installation. Tnx for your input.
>
> Cheers,     Steve    K7LXC
> Tower Tech
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>


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From tduffy@sygnet.com  Tue Jun 12 05:32:29 2001
From: tduffy@sygnet.com (Tim Duffy)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:32:29 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] TIC rotator assembly
References: <37.1666af31.2856f333@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B259B5C.4ECED979@sygnet.com>

I have installed them both ways. 1032 and 1022. Either one can be installed solo. It
just takes longer... I have 13 of them up and running!

73,
Tim K3LR

http://www.k3lr.com



K7LXC@aol.com wrote:

> Howdy, TowerTalkians --
>
>     While I've taken a TIC ring rotator down, I've never installed one. Can
> one person on the tower install it by himself or does it take two people? I
> suspect two since it appears that there's a bunch of times you might need 3
> or 4 hands during the installation. Tnx for your input.
>
> Cheers,     Steve    K7LXC
> Tower Tech
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com


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From n3rr@erols.com  Tue Jun 12 04:46:33 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:46:33 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] TIC rotator assembly
References: <37.1666af31.2856f333@aol.com>
Message-ID: <017901c0f2f2$46bbe3e0$a0012c42@billspiii>

Steve,

I should add that the key to the installation is preparation and practice
*near* the ground before climbing to the final height on the tower.
I suggest you pre-configure the parts on the ground based on your performing
a test installation on the tower at a height of 10 feet.
That way, you will know exactly what will be required at 100 ft (or whatever
your final destination may be).

For example, I always prepare the mounting plates as two assemblies, rather
than three.  The ring will need to go up as two
pieces (1022 or 1032).  Other personal preferences will appear to you during
the test.

73,

Bill, N3RR


----- Original Message -----
From: <K7LXC@aol.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 5:23 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] TIC rotator assembly


> Howdy, TowerTalkians --
>
>     While I've taken a TIC ring rotator down, I've never installed one.
Can
> one person on the tower install it by himself or does it take two people?
I
> suspect two since it appears that there's a bunch of times you might need
3
> or 4 hands during the installation. Tnx for your input.
>
> Cheers,     Steve    K7LXC
> Tower Tech
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>


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From K7GCO@aol.com  Tue Jun 12 09:59:02 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:59:02 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] INSULATED MAST
Message-ID: <109.129a700.285733d6@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/11/01 8:25:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, k7awb@qwest.net 
writes:

<< 
 I recently bought an M2 eight element fm 2 meter beam  to install at the top
 of my mast on my tower.  Where do I purchase an insulated mast section for
 the 2 meter beam that I can connect to my 2 inch steel mast at the top of
 the tower?  I don't remember reading in the m2 literature  that I needed an
 insulated mast though.  But, I don't want to affect the pattern.
 Steve K7AWB
  >>
You didn't say if it was to be vertically polarized which I assume it is or 
you wouldn't be requesting the insulated mast.  Try the quad people for their 
fiberglass poles.

However there is another problem.  The coax has to be run in the same area as 
the insulated pole so there will indeed still be almost the same interference 
to the beams pattern if a metal mast is used connected to the boom center.  

There are two ways to solve this.  Support the 2M beam from the rear and run 
the coax to the back along the boom and run it down a supporting metal mast 
at least a 1/4 wave from the reflector.  The boom may have to be beefed up 
for an end support.  Or run a fiberglass support pole at 45 degrees from the 
mast.  The beam F/B will give a fair isolation from the mast in the rear.  
Add another band beam on the other side pointing the other way to balance it 
up.

At a Ham Convention in Sea Side, Or last week a vendor had 2 neat LP's for 
144 and 450 MHz only of about 6 elements each.  It was fed in the front.  He 
had a 19" (1/4 wave) piece of PVC pipe holding the coax out away horizontally 
to keep it from the vertical elements and then it dropped down and back to 
the mast.  He said "it maintained the 1:1 SWR doing this" which I didn't 
doubt.  I've seen this before, used it in a hurry 30 years ago with a single 
vertically polarized beam but haven't checked what it does in Eznec for sure. 
 (Since then I've always used 2 vertical beams on a horizontal boom since 
with both spaced away from the tower evenly and at a spacing that gives the 
cleanest pattern).  It does give a fairly good pattern but I'll run an actual 
pattern and also in Eznec on a 3 element quad and a yagi to see exactly what 
it looks like with the loop around coax.   

It's the only way one can run a single vertical yagi or quad center mounted 
on an insulated mast and get a decent pattern without major interference from 
the coax.  This coax support has to be fairly rigid to take wind and ice/wind 
loading. 

3 element vertically polarized yagis have been supported on the DE with a 
J-Pole support and feed.

The logs were mounted on a neat Y PVC pipe support on the boom and he was 
able to tip it either vertical or horizontal or 45 degrees.  k7gco

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From bjk@ihug.co.nz  Tue Jun 12 10:11:34 2001
From: bjk@ihug.co.nz (Barry Kirkwood)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:11:34 +1200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tin roof blues
Message-ID: <002f01c0f31f$ae2a08e0$50d2adcb@ihug.co.nz>

Some suggestions on using metal roof as groundplane.
When I lived back in the city I had a small two story town house with a
galvanised corrugated steel roof.
I used various quarter wave verticals with their base on a stub mast working
against 3-4 slightly sloping quarter wave radials.
For 80m I used a quarter wave inverted L (more like half an inverted v).
This was alwys used with at least one quarter wave radial. These longer
radials would run to a corner of the roof and then along the fence tops at
the sides of the lot.
I bonded the roof iron by spot soldering thin tinned copper wires at the
corners of the metal sheets.
Using a simple home made clip on rf current meter showed no current in a
wire from the junction of the high band radials to the roof. i.e. the fan of
radials effectively isolated the system from the metal below.
Current flowed in this wire when I worked the 80m inverted L. I measured the
drop in feedpoint impedance as extra 1/4 wave radials were attached to the
80m feedpoint.
I came to the conclusion that the relatively small metal roof was equivalent
to at least 5 radials so far as currents were concerned.
I never tried the higher bands against the roof alone.
The 80m L worked very well, better than might be reasonably expected.
The little link wires corroded out very rapidly, so use a better bonding
technique if going this road.
I would certainly advise giving the metal roof a try as a groundplane.
73
end
Barry Kirkwood PhD ZL1DD
Signal Hill Homestay
66 Cory Road
Palm Beach
Waiheke Island 1240
NEW ZEALAND
www.waiheke.co.nz/signal.htm



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From W8JI@contesting.com  Tue Jun 12 11:59:51 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 06:59:51 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tin roof blues
In-Reply-To: <002f01c0f31f$ae2a08e0$50d2adcb@ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <200106121002.f5CA2M910910@paris.akorn.net>

Hi Barry,

> sheets. Using a simple home made clip on rf current meter showed no
> current in a wire from the junction of the high band radials to the roof.
> i.e. the fan of radials effectively isolated the system from the metal
> below.

What that might show is the radials and roof are almost perfectly 
coupled. If they were isolated, if there was a voltage difference, 
current would definitely flow. When there is no current via a low 
impedance connection, they are at exactly the same potential.

There is considerable current of the feedline to a 1/4 wl 
groundplane with four or less radials, because four radials do not 
"hold" the feedline shield to zero voltage. You can actually 
measure an SWR change on a 1/4 wl groundplane as a low 
impedance ground wire is touched to the shield of the coax just 
below the groundplane, and you will measure current in that wire.

If you do not see that effect it is most likely because the roof and 
radials are already acting like one big ground, connected through 
capacitance and mutual inductance! 
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From w5kp@swbell.net  Tue Jun 12 12:15:08 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 06:15:08 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] INSULATED MAST
References: <00a501c0f2ef$36626ee0$0200000a@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <001501c0f330$f45ba380$6f22c1cf@jkdesktop>

Steve, you might try Glen Martin at
http://www.glenmartin.com/catalog/page19.html for fiberglass mast materials.
They also carry some mast adapters/reducers to match them up to the steel
mast, I think.
73, Jerry W5KP

Subject: [TowerTalk] INSULATED MAST


> I recently bought an M2 eight element fm 2 meter beam  to install at the
top
> of my mast on my tower.  Where do I purchase an insulated mast section for
> the 2 meter beam that I can connect to my 2 inch steel mast at the top of
> the tower?  I don't remember reading in the m2 literature  that I needed
an
> insulated mast though.  But, I don't want to affect the pattern.
> Steve K7AWB
>



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From w2up@mindspring.com  Tue Jun 12 12:27:25 2001
From: w2up@mindspring.com (Barry Kutner)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:27:25 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] TIC rotator assembly
In-Reply-To: <37.1666af31.2856f333@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200106121127.HAA25612@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

I've installed 2 of them by myself. Easier to have a second person 
to help haul the pieces up, but it can be done solo.
Barry

On 12 Jun 01, K7LXC@aol.com wrote:

> Howdy, TowerTalkians --
> 
>     While I've taken a TIC ring rotator down, I've never installed one. Can 
> one person on the tower install it by himself or does it take two people? I 
> suspect two since it appears that there's a bunch of times you might need 3 
> or 4 hands during the installation. Tnx for your input.
> 
> Cheers,     Steve    K7LXC
> Tower Tech 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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> 


--
Barry Kutner, W2UP              Internet: w2up@mindspring.com
Newtown, PA         FRC         alternate: barry@w2up.wells.com

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From sm2cew@telia.com  Tue Jun 12 11:12:18 2001
From: sm2cew@telia.com (Peter Sundberg)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:12:18 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] INSULATED MAST
In-Reply-To: <00a501c0f2ef$36626ee0$0200000a@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <200106121212.OAA21098@d1o919.telia.com>

As people already pointed out, mounting the antenna on an insulated mast
will make no difference unless the coax is run out the back of the antenna
in some way.

I have a moonbounce array for 2 mtrs consisting of 6 yagis with horizontal
and vertical elements mounted on a metal H-frame. Deterioration in the
vertical polarization (elements in the same plane as the H-frame) is about
-1db in comparison to the horizontal plane. Vertical pattern is quite ok so
you can use the antenna this way for sure but it is like giving up a bit of
boomlength that you bought in the first place. In my case I wanted to make
up for the -20db lost from Faraday rotation if polarity is shifted 90 deg
so I am a happy little vegemite despite the fact I loose 1 db when I use
the vertical elements.

A much better approach in your case is to have two antennas bayed with
elements vertical on a horizontal metal mast. They can be considerably
shorter as the stacking gain will put you back in the same region as the
single 8 el M2.

Back supporting the 8 el will put a lot of stress on the mount so it is not
a good idea.

Anyhow, you can put it up on a metal mast and use it, but there will not be
all the db's you paid for in the antenna. I will not be a disaster though
so my suggestion is to try it.

73/Peter SM2CEW
www.qsl.net/sm2cew


At 05:24 2001-06-12 , Steve wrote:
>I recently bought an M2 eight element fm 2 meter beam  to install at the top
>of my mast on my tower.  Where do I purchase an insulated mast section for
>the 2 meter beam that I can connect to my 2 inch steel mast at the top of
>the tower?  I don't remember reading in the m2 literature  that I needed an
>insulated mast though.  But, I don't want to affect the pattern.
>Steve K7AWB
>
>
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
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> 


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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jun 12 15:13:28 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:13:28 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] TIC rotator assembly - tnx!
Message-ID: <b9.f37269f.28577d88@aol.com>

    Thanks to everyone for their emails regarding installation of the TIC 
ring rotators. The consensus is that they can be assembled on the tower by 
one person. The key is to assemble them at ground level to make sure 
everything fits and works. Another key is to use bungee cords or vise grips 
to hold everything together during assembly so one guy can do it. 

    I was surprised at the number of responses and the number of people that 
have not one but sometimes many more! K3LR with 13 I think is the winner with 
lots of multiple installations elsewhere and some people having experience 
installing more than several of them.

    Tnx again!

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From k2av@contesting.com  Tue Jun 12 15:43:59 2001
From: k2av@contesting.com (Guy Olinger, K2AV)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:43:59 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tin roof blues
Message-ID: <20010612144447.HAZN7728.imf12bis.bellsouth.net@mail.bna.bellsouth.net>

To the original poster, one of the ground-independent multiband verticals like the R8, etc, would be quite good above a tin roof.

The difficulties with ground for a vertical are

1) insufficient radial density and subsequent power loss at the ground connection used as a current sink. The R8 and its kind are a type of vertical dipole, so this loss is not present.

2) E-plane losses in the ground directly underneath the vertical, the reason a dense ground screen will help an R8 or the like. Doesn't have to actually connect to an R8, it just puts a shield over the ground.

3) vertical polarization reflection loss in the first several hundred meters. Only thing that fixes this is an obscene investment in radials, salt-water marsh or ocean shore location.

Your tin room nicely takes care of 2) above. It's about as good a dense ground screen under a vertical dipole as you will get. Plus the downward radiation will be reflected at low angles in two directions if the roof is peaked. 

When I lived in an apartment in Washington DC, I had a tar covered, barely sloped tin roof, and the vertical I had up there played like gang-busters. I just didn't know why. Now I do.

73 & good luck.

> 
> From: "Barry Kirkwood" <bjk@ihug.co.nz>
> Date: 2001/06/12 Tue PM 09:11:34 EDT
> To: "Tower Talk" <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Tin roof blues
> 
> Some suggestions on using metal roof as groundplane.
> When I lived back in the city I had a small two story town house with a
> galvanised corrugated steel roof.
> I used various quarter wave verticals with their base on a stub mast working
> against 3-4 slightly sloping quarter wave radials.
> For 80m I used a quarter wave inverted L (more like half an inverted v).
> This was alwys used with at least one quarter wave radial. These longer
> radials would run to a corner of the roof and then along the fence tops at
> the sides of the lot.
> I bonded the roof iron by spot soldering thin tinned copper wires at the
> corners of the metal sheets.
> Using a simple home made clip on rf current meter showed no current in a
> wire from the junction of the high band radials to the roof. i.e. the fan of
> radials effectively isolated the system from the metal below.
> Current flowed in this wire when I worked the 80m inverted L. I measured the
> drop in feedpoint impedance as extra 1/4 wave radials were attached to the
> 80m feedpoint.
> I came to the conclusion that the relatively small metal roof was equivalent
> to at least 5 radials so far as currents were concerned.
> I never tried the higher bands against the roof alone.
> The 80m L worked very well, better than might be reasonably expected.
> The little link wires corroded out very rapidly, so use a better bonding
> technique if going this road.
> I would certainly advise giving the metal roof a try as a groundplane.
> 73
> end
> Barry Kirkwood PhD ZL1DD
> Signal Hill Homestay
> 66 Cory Road
> Palm Beach
> Waiheke Island 1240
> NEW ZEALAND
> www.waiheke.co.nz/signal.htm
> 
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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> 
> 



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From mfarrer@tality.com  Tue Jun 12 16:03:13 2001
From: mfarrer@tality.com (Mel Farrer)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:03:13 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tin roof blues
Message-ID: <97A30A2BBA23D411842900D0B726125D616434@srvex03-sanjose.Cadence.COM>

Tin or metal roofs have a bad habit of also generating TVI/RFI due to the
poor connections between panels.  I have no cure other than bonding the
panels together, had work and sometimes impossible. On new install, just
solder or braze them together.

-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Olinger, K2AV [mailto:k2av@contesting.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 7:44 AM
To: Barry Kirkwood; Tower Talk
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tin roof blues


To the original poster, one of the ground-independent multiband verticals
like the R8, etc, would be quite good above a tin roof.

The difficulties with ground for a vertical are

1) insufficient radial density and subsequent power loss at the ground
connection used as a current sink. The R8 and its kind are a type of
vertical dipole, so this loss is not present.

2) E-plane losses in the ground directly underneath the vertical, the reason
a dense ground screen will help an R8 or the like. Doesn't have to actually
connect to an R8, it just puts a shield over the ground.

3) vertical polarization reflection loss in the first several hundred
meters. Only thing that fixes this is an obscene investment in radials,
salt-water marsh or ocean shore location.

Your tin room nicely takes care of 2) above. It's about as good a dense
ground screen under a vertical dipole as you will get. Plus the downward
radiation will be reflected at low angles in two directions if the roof is
peaked. 

When I lived in an apartment in Washington DC, I had a tar covered, barely
sloped tin roof, and the vertical I had up there played like gang-busters. I
just didn't know why. Now I do.

73 & good luck.

> 
> From: "Barry Kirkwood" <bjk@ihug.co.nz>
> Date: 2001/06/12 Tue PM 09:11:34 EDT
> To: "Tower Talk" <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Tin roof blues
> 
> Some suggestions on using metal roof as groundplane.
> When I lived back in the city I had a small two story town house with a
> galvanised corrugated steel roof.
> I used various quarter wave verticals with their base on a stub mast
working
> against 3-4 slightly sloping quarter wave radials.
> For 80m I used a quarter wave inverted L (more like half an inverted v).
> This was alwys used with at least one quarter wave radial. These longer
> radials would run to a corner of the roof and then along the fence tops at
> the sides of the lot.
> I bonded the roof iron by spot soldering thin tinned copper wires at the
> corners of the metal sheets.
> Using a simple home made clip on rf current meter showed no current in a
> wire from the junction of the high band radials to the roof. i.e. the fan
of
> radials effectively isolated the system from the metal below.
> Current flowed in this wire when I worked the 80m inverted L. I measured
the
> drop in feedpoint impedance as extra 1/4 wave radials were attached to the
> 80m feedpoint.
> I came to the conclusion that the relatively small metal roof was
equivalent
> to at least 5 radials so far as currents were concerned.
> I never tried the higher bands against the roof alone.
> The 80m L worked very well, better than might be reasonably expected.
> The little link wires corroded out very rapidly, so use a better bonding
> technique if going this road.
> I would certainly advise giving the metal roof a try as a groundplane.
> 73
> end
> Barry Kirkwood PhD ZL1DD
> Signal Hill Homestay
> 66 Cory Road
> Palm Beach
> Waiheke Island 1240
> NEW ZEALAND
> www.waiheke.co.nz/signal.htm
> 
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> 
> 



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From paulfinch@msn.com  Tue Jun 12 16:11:22 2001
From: paulfinch@msn.com (Paul Finch)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:11:22 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rebar
In-Reply-To: <1010511163042.QAA07597@gate.iterated.com>
Message-ID: <CHEAIHGJHDFPBLKFBDLIMEFBCEAA.paulfinch@msn.com>

Hello,

Several years ago, the dam at Possum Kingdom Lake in Texas had a water leak
under the dam.  Long story but the dam was built in the early 20's before
they could conduct complete soil core samples before the construction
process.  Unknowingly they built the dam on several layers of shale.  The
dam did not leak for over 50 years and was not a problem till a housing
development started using dynamite for some construction on the bluffs about
3/4 of a mile south of the dam.  The concussion apparently loosened the
shale, shifting the dam slightly and letting water flow under the dam, in
effect floating the dam with a 3/4 inch crack in it.  Long story longer,
during the repair process they cut 8 foot holes in the 8 foot thick walls of
the hollow dam.  My Father asked them how they cut through the rebar, they
said there was none.  They stated they did not put the rebar in dams because
it would rust and leave voids in the dam and undermine the structure.  The
actual fix of this dam problem is a whole nuther story!!!

I admit that the Possum Kingdom Lake dam is the only one I know about.  I
know that Hoover dam has copper pipe in it to keep it at the correct temp
during the curing process but I don't know if it has rebar.

What about the fiberglass fiber reinforced concrete.  I am about to put a
roof on my 20 x 30 foot tower building and I am going to use lightweight
fiberglass reinforced concrete.

Just something to think about.

Paul Finch
WB5IDM



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Bill Coleman
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 3:31 PM
To: Mike Gilmer - N2MG; towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Rebar


On 6/4/01 8:06 AM, Mike Gilmer - N2MG at n2mg@contesting.com wrote:

>I read here often that folks recommend that rebar be kept "inside" the
>concrete (and by several inches) - away from the nasty, wet soil in an
>effort to protect it from rust.

Three inches on all sides.

Concrete isn't so porous that water can infiltrate three inches easily.



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From teamw@quixnet.net  Tue Jun 12 16:05:56 2001
From: teamw@quixnet.net (John Weatherley)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:05:56 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Guys and Things
Message-ID: <002701c0f352$7b91e280$cad06620@JohnandMargaretWeatherley>

1. Where can one get moderately sized egg insulators for breaking 3/16 EHS
and at what nominal cost each. The homongeous two fisted type are a bit of
an over kill. They need to be big enough to take the appropriate big grips
though.

2. Has anyone any experience with tuning Sommer XP704 antennas. Mine has the
low VSWR point at close to 16.2 Mhz for 20 mtrs and 30.3  Mhz for 10 mtrs.
lengthening elements per the instructions did not move the resonance in
band. i have just established comms. with Alf Sommer but he is on vacation
in DL-land and e-mail is forwarded and a bit slow. Any help appreciated.

3. Per N4ZR's implication re technology source. In the case of carbon
fibre - that was invented by the British at the Royal Aeronautical
Establishment  Farnborough around about 1963.

73 de John AB4ET
teamw@quixnet.net



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From k2av@contesting.com  Tue Jun 12 16:31:10 2001
From: k2av@contesting.com (Guy Olinger, K2AV)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:31:10 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tin roof blues
Message-ID: <20010612153159.VKBF29973.imf16bis.bellsouth.net@mail.bna.bellsouth.net>

RF current causing TVI in tin roofs is particularly possible when the roof is used AS the current sink or is tightly coupled with high current radials immediately above it.

The amount of current/voltage in the tin roof is drastically reduced if you have something like an R8 above it, with NO direct or tightly coupled current, and only oblique induction (roof is mostly or entirely horizontal, induction is entirely vertically polarized).

Another argument for the vertical dipole sort of vertical.

> 
> From: Mel Farrer <mfarrer@tality.com>
> Date: 2001/06/12 Tue AM 08:03:13 EDT
> To: "'Guy Olinger, K2AV'" <k2av@contesting.com>,
>    Barry Kirkwood
> 	 <bjk@ihug.co.nz>, Tower Talk <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Tin roof blues
> 
> Tin or metal roofs have a bad habit of also generating TVI/RFI due to the
> poor connections between panels.  I have no cure other than bonding the
> panels together, had work and sometimes impossible. On new install, just
> solder or braze them together.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Guy Olinger, K2AV [mailto:k2av@contesting.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 7:44 AM
> To: Barry Kirkwood; Tower Talk
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tin roof blues
> 
> 
> To the original poster, one of the ground-independent multiband verticals
> like the R8, etc, would be quite good above a tin roof.
> 
> The difficulties with ground for a vertical are
> 
> 1) insufficient radial density and subsequent power loss at the ground
> connection used as a current sink. The R8 and its kind are a type of
> vertical dipole, so this loss is not present.
> 
> 2) E-plane losses in the ground directly underneath the vertical, the reason
> a dense ground screen will help an R8 or the like. Doesn't have to actually
> connect to an R8, it just puts a shield over the ground.
> 
> 3) vertical polarization reflection loss in the first several hundred
> meters. Only thing that fixes this is an obscene investment in radials,
> salt-water marsh or ocean shore location.
> 
> Your tin room nicely takes care of 2) above. It's about as good a dense
> ground screen under a vertical dipole as you will get. Plus the downward
> radiation will be reflected at low angles in two directions if the roof is
> peaked. 
> 
> When I lived in an apartment in Washington DC, I had a tar covered, barely
> sloped tin roof, and the vertical I had up there played like gang-busters. I
> just didn't know why. Now I do.
> 
> 73 & good luck.
> 
> > 
> > From: "Barry Kirkwood" <bjk@ihug.co.nz>
> > Date: 2001/06/12 Tue PM 09:11:34 EDT
> > To: "Tower Talk" <towertalk@contesting.com>
> > Subject: [TowerTalk] Tin roof blues
> > 
> > Some suggestions on using metal roof as groundplane.
> > When I lived back in the city I had a small two story town house with a
> > galvanised corrugated steel roof.
> > I used various quarter wave verticals with their base on a stub mast
> working
> > against 3-4 slightly sloping quarter wave radials.
> > For 80m I used a quarter wave inverted L (more like half an inverted v).
> > This was alwys used with at least one quarter wave radial. These longer
> > radials would run to a corner of the roof and then along the fence tops at
> > the sides of the lot.
> > I bonded the roof iron by spot soldering thin tinned copper wires at the
> > corners of the metal sheets.
> > Using a simple home made clip on rf current meter showed no current in a
> > wire from the junction of the high band radials to the roof. i.e. the fan
> of
> > radials effectively isolated the system from the metal below.
> > Current flowed in this wire when I worked the 80m inverted L. I measured
> the
> > drop in feedpoint impedance as extra 1/4 wave radials were attached to the
> > 80m feedpoint.
> > I came to the conclusion that the relatively small metal roof was
> equivalent
> > to at least 5 radials so far as currents were concerned.
> > I never tried the higher bands against the roof alone.
> > The 80m L worked very well, better than might be reasonably expected.
> > The little link wires corroded out very rapidly, so use a better bonding
> > technique if going this road.
> > I would certainly advise giving the metal roof a try as a groundplane.
> > 73
> > end
> > Barry Kirkwood PhD ZL1DD
> > Signal Hill Homestay
> > 66 Cory Road
> > Palm Beach
> > Waiheke Island 1240
> > NEW ZEALAND
> > www.waiheke.co.nz/signal.htm
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
> us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
> to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> > 
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
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> 



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From w2up@mindspring.com  Tue Jun 12 18:57:31 2001
From: w2up@mindspring.com (Barry Kutner)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:57:31 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Loose anchors and rock
Message-ID: <200106121757.NAA18968@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

Hi all,
This isn't exactly a tower application, but semi-related...

I have threaded anchors in rock that are used for a pool cover. The 
anchors are stainless steel, and are similar to lead masonry 
anchors I've seen at Home Depot. Some of the anchors have 
loosened in the rock. Is there some kind of epoxy or other material 
I can use to tighten things back up?
Tnx,
Barry W2UP
--
Barry Kutner, W2UP              Internet: w2up@mindspring.com
Newtown, PA         FRC         alternate: barry@w2up.wells.com

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From mfarrer@tality.com  Tue Jun 12 19:12:16 2001
From: mfarrer@tality.com (Mel Farrer)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:12:16 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Quadrifilar antenna
Message-ID: <97A30A2BBA23D411842900D0B726125D616439@srvex03-sanjose.Cadence.COM>

A simpler antenna that produces a similar pattern is the "eggbeater"  Two
circles at right angles fed with a phase shift network. M2 sells one now,
KLM developed it in the 70-80s.  It produces a satellite friendly circular
pattern skyward and a horizontal omni on the horizon.  Neat 

-----Original Message-----
From: Ford Peterson [mailto:ford@cmgate.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 10:29 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Quadrifilar antenna


I have been reading Walt Maxwell's new book Reflections II.  He describes a
"Quadrifilar Helix" antenna used for satellite work.  Anybody played with
these babies?  I've been modeling the design and it looks quite promising.

180 degree az pattern over almost 175 degrees of elevation.   Wow!  It's a
cloud burner but just the ticket for LEO (Low Earth Orbit) satellite work.
I've been looking at making one but the materials are a problem.  There was
an article in QST a while back that described making one but frankly, the
cheesy construction leaves a bit to be desired.  In addition, there are
several aspects of the Maxwell paper that lead one to believe that the QST
version is a hoax (it can't possibly work at the top of a tower).

If somebody has experience with these antennas, I'd love to hear from them
direct.  Perhaps we can share notes, models, etc.

Ford-N0FP
ford@cmgate.com




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From k2av@contesting.com  Tue Jun 12 19:27:01 2001
From: k2av@contesting.com (Guy Olinger, K2AV)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:27:01 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Quadrifilar antenna
Message-ID: <20010612182750.KAXP7728.imf12bis.bellsouth.net@mail.bna.bellsouth.net>


>There was
> an article in QST a while back that described making one but frankly, 

   ...

>there are
> several aspects of the Maxwell paper that lead one to believe that the QST
> version is a hoax 

An April Issue?    



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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jun 12 19:29:42 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:29:42 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Loose anchors and rock
Message-ID: <7d.165ced41.2857b996@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/12/01 10:58:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
w2up@mindspring.com writes:

> I have threaded anchors in rock that are used for a pool cover. The 
>  anchors are stainless steel, and are similar to lead masonry 
>  anchors I've seen at Home Depot. Some of the anchors have 
>  loosened in the rock. Is there some kind of epoxy or other material 
>  I can use to tighten things back up?

    Sure. Call up a local industrial supplier and ask them. There are plenty 
of industrial epoxies that'll work. Your load factors are pretty low so just 
about anything will work. 

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From asfco@nycap.rr.com  Tue Jun 12 20:11:41 2001
From: asfco@nycap.rr.com (asfco)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:11:41 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Where to find Pulleys
Message-ID: <3B26696D.3430CF79@nycap.rr.com>

I have looked all over trying to find replacement pulley wheels for my
EZ Way tower. Anyone kow of a source??
Thanks
Steve  W2GB



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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Tue Jun 12 17:44:29 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:44:29 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] 3/16 EHS and Grips
Message-ID: <3B2646ED.A7832973@easystreet.com>

Does anyone know if ordinary 3/16" EHS with Guy Grips can be
used with 500D insulators or do they have to be 502's?

I have never seen a 3/16" guy grip . . .

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com




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From bjk@ihug.co.nz  Tue Jun 12 21:04:08 2001
From: bjk@ihug.co.nz (Barry Kirkwood)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:04:08 +1200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tin roof blues
References: <200106121002.f5CA2M910910@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <006001c0f37a$d79e2840$92d6adcb@ihug.co.nz>

Yes, Could be.
I did have an isolating balun at the feed point, made the assuption that no
current =no coupling,
but as you point out no current could mean perfect coupling.
FWIW the higher band monopoles were nothing special but the 80m job really
played. Amazed everybody.
73 es tnx
end
Barry Kirkwood PhD ZL1DD
Signal Hill Homestay
66 Cory Road
Palm Beach
Waiheke Island 1240
NEW ZEALAND
www.waiheke.co.nz/signal.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Rauch <w8ji@akorn.net>
To: Tower Talk <towertalk@contesting.com>; Barry Kirkwood <bjk@ihug.co.nz>
Sent: Tuesday, 12 June, 2001 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tin roof blues


> Hi Barry,
>
> > sheets. Using a simple home made clip on rf current meter showed no
> > current in a wire from the junction of the high band radials to the
roof.
> > i.e. the fan of radials effectively isolated the system from the metal
> > below.
>
> What that might show is the radials and roof are almost perfectly
> coupled. If they were isolated, if there was a voltage difference,
> current would definitely flow. When there is no current via a low
> impedance connection, they are at exactly the same potential.
>
> There is considerable current of the feedline to a 1/4 wl
> groundplane with four or less radials, because four radials do not
> "hold" the feedline shield to zero voltage. You can actually
> measure an SWR change on a 1/4 wl groundplane as a low
> impedance ground wire is touched to the shield of the coax just
> below the groundplane, and you will measure current in that wire.
>
> If you do not see that effect it is most likely because the roof and
> radials are already acting like one big ground, connected through
> capacitance and mutual inductance!
> 73, Tom W8JI
> W8JI@contesting.com
>



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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jun 12 21:16:41 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:16:41 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] 3/16 EHS and Grips
Message-ID: <42.16190c5c.2857d2a9@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/12/01 12:35:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
w7ni@easystreet.com writes:

> Does anyone know if ordinary 3/16" EHS with Guy Grips can be
>  used with 500D insulators or do they have to be 502's?
>  
    Preformed grips can be used with either one. There is a second paint mark 
farther away from the grip termination loop - this is the one to use when 
putting them thru an insulator. It softens the exit angle of the grip from 
the insulator. 

>  I have never seen a 3/16" guy grip . . .

    Hey, Stan - this is a new millenium. Even Rohn sells them and has for 
years. 

    Again, don't forget that the shorter grips are for utility grade 3/16" 
wire rope and ARE NOT for EHS. DO NOT mix grips and cable types. There is a 
grip for each application and wire rope configuration and it's different for 
each one. 

Cheers,   Steve   K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jun 12 21:23:02 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:23:02 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] New antenneX CD-ROM Selection IV
Message-ID: <5f.1666905d.2857d426@aol.com>

Greetings, TowerTalkians --

    Here's an announcement you may be interested in.

Cheers,    Steve   K7LXC
TT Admin
Tower Tech 

>> **** ANNOUNCEMENT ****

We are pleased to announce the release of the new antenneX on CD-ROM
Selection IV. This new CD includes 560 articles from the archives through
June 2001. This series of CDs has proven to be one of our most popular items
in the BookShelf section of the Shopping Shack. It keeps getting bigger and
better!

For those who have purchased one of the other antenneX on CD-ROM Selections,
there is a special upgrade price available

For more info about this new CD, please goto:
http://www.antennex.com/Sshack/cdrom4.htm

Also, you may be surprised at the many other items that have been added to
the BookShelf. Be sure to take a look at the BookShelf Index at:
http://www.antennex.com/Sshack/books.htm

Hope to see you soon and thanks for your time!

Best reGARDS,

Jack L. Stone, Publisher
antenneX Online Magazine
http://www.antennex.com
jack@antennex.com >>

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From w3svj@juno.com  Tue Jun 12 22:15:56 2001
From: w3svj@juno.com (w3svj@juno.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:15:56 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Quadrifilar antenna
Message-ID: <20010612.171558.-167779.0.W3SVJ@juno.com>

Buck Ruperto, W3KH, had an article with a nice cover photo of his
quadrifiler design. 'Don't think it was APRIL 1 humor, it's not his
style!

73 de Nate, W3SVJ, in Pittsburgh where it's not so smokey anymore.

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From w6ter@worldnet.att.net  Tue Jun 12 20:55:48 2001
From: w6ter@worldnet.att.net (Gerald Smith)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:55:48 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] FS: New DX Engineering 40DX-3
Message-ID: <3B2673C4.2300E8C8@worldnet.att.net>

Full size 3-element 40-meter yagi. This is a DX Engineering beam, NEVER
constructed, NEVER been in the air. The model number is 40DX-3. It is
NEW.

The boom is 42 feet. The longest element is 72.8 feet. There is no
loading. All 6061-T6 aluminum. Stainless steel hardware. Trussed with
Phillystran and heavy duty turnbuckles. Each element is individually
trussed.

Over 6 dBd gain. SWR bandwidth is 300 kHz. Includes 5Kw balun.

Pickup only, 15 miles East of Albuquerque.

Price, $2,095

Please respond to w6ter@att.net

Gerry, W6TER

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From nn4t@bellsouth.net  Tue Jun 12 23:56:26 2001
From: nn4t@bellsouth.net (steve)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:56:26 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Comealongs
Message-ID: <024f01c0f392$e9735b40$cc72d6d1@v6m0f6>

Can someone suggest a good quality brand of comealong? I need to replace
mine and want to get one which is reliable and will give long service. Thank
you in advance. Steve, NN4T.



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From w9rpm@qth.com  Wed Jun 13 02:02:18 2001
From: w9rpm@qth.com (John Kjos W9RPM)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:02:18 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna Spacing
Message-ID: <3B26BB9A.7927B593@qth.com>

I have a Force 12 5BA 10-20M at 90' and a Force 12 180C 80M rotatable
dipole at 98' set 90 degrees offset to it. I would like to put a M2 2
meter beam inbetween the 2 of them. I am looking at putting the one I
have 33' beam or their big 55' one. I know that the spacing is pretty
close; am I asking for trouble with inter-action or is it feasible?
Thanks in advance for any help. 73 John W9RPM







9 Band DXCC- 5 Band WAZ- 6M-WAS- 6M-WAC and 6M-VUCC
Email: w9rpm@qth.com	
Web:   http://www.qth.com/w9rpm/
IM: W9RPM

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From n3rr@erols.com  Wed Jun 13 01:15:36 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:15:36 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna Spacing
References: <3B26BB9A.7927B593@qth.com>
Message-ID: <00c301c0f39d$f8ad5ce0$fd0d2c42@billspiii>

John,

I have a F12 180C @ 149 ft with a 5 L HyGain 10M @ 145 ft. The 180C is
*not* 180 deg, it is in line with the boom of the 10M.  No problems and
Tom Shiller says this is a normal config.  The 180C does not have the
interaction that shorter, linesr loaded dipoles would have.

To really get the picture, model it with EZNEC.  The antennas you are
considering
are fairly easy to model.  The most difficult would be the 180C, but check
with Tom and
he may have the model parameters or you.

73,
Bill, N3RR

----- Original Message -----
From: John Kjos W9RPM <w9rpm@qth.com>
To: TOWERTALK <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 2:02 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna Spacing


> I have a Force 12 5BA 10-20M at 90' and a Force 12 180C 80M rotatable
> dipole at 98' set 90 degrees offset to it. I would like to put a M2 2
> meter beam inbetween the 2 of them. I am looking at putting the one I
> have 33' beam or their big 55' one. I know that the spacing is pretty
> close; am I asking for trouble with inter-action or is it feasible?
> Thanks in advance for any help. 73 John W9RPM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 9 Band DXCC- 5 Band WAZ- 6M-WAS- 6M-WAC and 6M-VUCC
> Email: w9rpm@qth.com
> Web:   http://www.qth.com/w9rpm/
> IM: W9RPM
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>


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From k3hx@juno.com  Wed Jun 13 02:59:47 2001
From: k3hx@juno.com (tttt ccccc)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:59:47 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Come-a-longs
Message-ID: <20010612.220101.-411989.2.k3hx@juno.com>

Maasdan (Maasden?) in California makes a gem.

I bought 4 of them many years ago and they are orders of magnitude better
than the

imported crap.  

About 50 bucks a piece.   But they will be the last ones you buy.

I've seen them at either Home Depot or Lowe's.

73

Tim  K3HX
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From n4kg@juno.com  Wed Jun 13 00:22:30 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:22:30 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] 3/16 EHS and Grips
Message-ID: <20010612.221014.-93001.1.N4KG@juno.com>

I use the small rectangular insulators, 2.5 inches long,
1.5 inches across the diagonals, 1.0 inch across grooves,
with my 3/16 inch Big Grips.  I "reform" the radius of the
grips using a rubber mallot after twisting a couple of turns
to hold the sides together.  Place the looped end on a piece
of wood to protect the bottom side while whacking with the
rubber mallot.  It takes about 6 whacks with the rubber mallot
(or 3 or 4 whacks with a 3 lb hammer).  A properly reformed
grip will just fit in the grooves.  I know, it is a violation of the
"Prime Directive".  None of my 7 towers have fallen down in
20+ years and several very high wind events (tornado, etc).

de  Tom  N4KG

On Tue, 12 Jun 2001  Stan or Patricia Griffiths <w7ni@easystreet.com>
writes:

> Does anyone know if ordinary 3/16" EHS with Guy Grips can be
> used with 500D insulators or do they have to be 502's?
> 
> I have never seen a 3/16" guy grip . . .
> 
> Stan
> w7ni@easystreet.com
> 
> 
> 

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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Wed Jun 13 07:29:50 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:29:50 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <026401c0f272$54a580e0$071a66a6@server> <3B24BDD0.B13EB680@tcac.net> <3B2559F8.4523B739@easystreet.com> <3B26DA0C.7F6F0A31@tcac.net>
Message-ID: <3B27085E.4B0625AE@easystreet.com>

I agree that if you just need more beef on the pull rope, you can get more bodies to do it.  But,
I was addressing the issue of too much load on the gin pole and more bodies pulling on the rope
doesn't help that.  A 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle system does, indeed, relieve
about 1/3 of the load on the gin pole, in addition to reducing the number of bodies required on
the pull rope.  The cost, as you pointed out, is that a LOT more rope is required . . .

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

Richard Thorne wrote:

> R,R Stan:
>
> A block and tackle would definitely work.  My dad and I used one on a homebrew tilt over
> tower.  But a good block and tackle with the correct amount of rope gets expensive. Always
> easier to find more help to pull on the rope.  I've used two pulleys, one at the gin pole top
> and one at the base of the tower.
>
> Stan or Patricia Griffiths wrote:
>
> > We hashed this out about a year ago and I recommended the use of a block and tackle to
> > reduce the load on the gin pole.  Using a 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle reduces
> > the load on the gin pole to 66% of what it would be if just a single pully a the top were
> > used, ignoring friction . . .
> >
> > At the time we dicussed this topic, there were some strong "non-believers" who voiced their
> > skepicsm on this reflector.  I have since rigged a convincing demonstration of this
> > principle and gave it (with the help of W7RR) as a program at a Willamette Valley DX Club
> > meeting, where, after the demonstration, there were NO non-believers . . .
> >
> > This may not solve the problem, but it will sure help . . .
> >
> > Stan
> > w7ni@easystreet.com
> >
> > Richard Thorne wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Stan:
> > >
> > > I think its called a crane :-).  I've helped put up several 25g and 45g towers in my ham
> > > career.  The 45g sections usually required 2 if not 3 people to pull the section up
> > > safely.  I'm sure some sort of winch would be required to pull up 420lbs assuming you
> > > could find/manufacture a gin pole that would handle it.
> > >
> > > Stan Stockton wrote:
> > >
> > > > About a decade ago I acquired a little broadcast tower and am now wanting to
> > > > put it up.  There are eight sections, 20 foot long each, about 18 inches on
> > > > a side, solid rod legs about 1.5 inches in diameter, and each section weighs
> > > > 420 pounds.  Any ideas on the construction of a gin pole that would handle
> > > > this thing would be appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > Stan, K5GO
> > > >
> > > > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> > > > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> > > > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > > > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> > > >
> > > > -----
> > > > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > > > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > > > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > > > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > >
> > > --
> > > Richard Thorne
> > > Advo Companies, Inc.
> > > 806-342-0600
> > >
> > > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> > > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> > > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> > >
> > > -----
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> > > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
> --
> 73,
> Richard Thorne
> Amarillo, TX
> Amateur Radio Station - N5ZC (Ex. KA2DSY, N2BHP, WB5M)
> Remote Control Planes - AMA # N5ZC
> Web Page: http://www.tcac.net/~rthorne/index.html



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From K7LXC@aol.com  Wed Jun 13 14:14:18 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:14:18 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Come-a-longs
Message-ID: <98.163127c3.2858c12a@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/12/01 6:57:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, k3hx@juno.com 
writes:

> Maasdan (Maasden?) in California makes a gem.
>  
>  I bought 4 of them many years ago and they are orders of magnitude better
>  than the
>  
>  imported crap.  
>  
>  About 50 bucks a piece.   But they will be the last ones you buy.
>  
>  I've seen them at either Home Depot or Lowe's.

    There are a myriad of cable puller (comealong) manufacturers and this IS 
a case of you get what you pay for. 

    A comealong should have hooks with spring-loaded gates on them and should 
have a cast aluminum cable reel with double ratchet pawl and gear arrangement 
on the reel. Something like this will run fifty bucks. Ones with a single 
pawl/gear are in the $30-35 range. They both work for typical ham projects - 
moving masts up and down, pulling guy wires, etc.

Cheers,   Steve     K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Wed Jun 13 14:19:46 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:19:46 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <78.162c1044.2858c272@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/12/01 11:45:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
w7ni@easystreet.com writes:

>  A 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle system does, indeed, relieve
>  about 1/3 of the load on the gin pole, in addition to reducing the number 
of 
> bodies required on  the pull rope.

    You sure? Isn't a hundred-pound load going to weigh 100 pounds no matter 
how the block and tackle are set up? The load effort on the end of the rope 
will be reduced but the dead weight of the load stays the same. You still 
need a suitable ginpole. 

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech

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From mike@kb0ozn.com  Wed Jun 13 14:27:35 2001
From: mike@kb0ozn.com (MikeB)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:27:35 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Coax???
Message-ID: <3B276A47.BC7493E1@kb0ozn.com>

Anybody out there ever heard of 'ARG-17A/U'???  It appears to be .75inch
heliax of some sort.  I got about 50 feet of it from a guy who didn't
know what the specs were.

Thanks
Mike
KB0OZN

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From k1ttt@berkshire.net  Wed Jun 13 14:21:59 2001
From: k1ttt@berkshire.net (David Robbins)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:21:59 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <78.162c1044.2858c272@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B2768F7.58F93203@berkshire.net>

of course the lifting rope load remains the same, but the force required on the
pulling end decreases so the total load on the gin pole does get reduced.

for example, with a standard gin pole lifting 300lbs at the top of the pole you
have a 300lb load plus 300lb of pull from the other side giving you a worst case
600lb force on the gin pole (static load, some more is required to get things
moving, overcome friction, etc).

with a 3:1 advantage pulley system you still have the 300lb load on one side,
but the rope pulling down on the other side is only adding 100lbs of force to
the pole, so the total is now 400lb.  which of course is a 1/3 reduction from
the 600lb you started with.... note the 3:1 and the 1/3 reduction is just how it
works out. with a 2:1 advantage you only reduce the total load from 600 to
450lbs of a reduction of only 1/4 of the load... and taken to extreme, with an
infinite mechanical advantage you still have 300lbs of load so you only reduce
the total load on the pole by 1/2, the lowest you can get.

another advantage of a pulley system like that is you can use a lighter weight
rope since each pass of it between the pulleys divides the load up.  so for a
3:1 system with a 300lb load you only need a rope that can handle 100lb of
tension instead of 300lb... but of course you have to pull 3x more of it to lift
the same distance.

K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 6/12/01 11:45:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> w7ni@easystreet.com writes:
> 
> >  A 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle system does, indeed, relieve
> >  about 1/3 of the load on the gin pole, in addition to reducing the number
> of
> > bodies required on  the pull rope.
> 
>     You sure? Isn't a hundred-pound load going to weigh 100 pounds no matter
> how the block and tackle are set up? The load effort on the end of the rope
> will be reduced but the dead weight of the load stays the same. You still
> need a suitable ginpole.
> 

-- 
David Robbins K1TTT
e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
web: http://www.k1ttt.net
AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net

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From wb6yaw@dreamsoft.com  Wed Jun 13 15:56:10 2001
From: wb6yaw@dreamsoft.com (Jim)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:56:10 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <78.162c1044.2858c272@aol.com> <3B2768F7.58F93203@berkshire.net>
Message-ID: <3B277F0A.44025F50@dreamsoft.com>

Dave,

I'm not buying that.  It sounds logical at first but think about it.  To pull 300 lbs
up, it takes 300 lbs of pull, and since the upper pulley arrangement is actually going
to be located on the gin pole, guess what?  The 300 lbs of pull is going right into the
gin pole.  Sorry if I'm not real clear but I know what I mean!  HiHi.

73
Jim WB6YAW

David Robbins wrote:

> of course the lifting rope load remains the same, but the force required on the
> pulling end decreases so the total load on the gin pole does get reduced.
>
> for example, with a standard gin pole lifting 300lbs at the top of the pole you
> have a 300lb load plus 300lb of pull from the other side giving you a worst case
> 600lb force on the gin pole (static load, some more is required to get things
> moving, overcome friction, etc).
>
> with a 3:1 advantage pulley system you still have the 300lb load on one side,
> but the rope pulling down on the other side is only adding 100lbs of force to
> the pole, so the total is now 400lb.  which of course is a 1/3 reduction from
> the 600lb you started with.... note the 3:1 and the 1/3 reduction is just how it
> works out. with a 2:1 advantage you only reduce the total load from 600 to
> 450lbs of a reduction of only 1/4 of the load... and taken to extreme, with an
> infinite mechanical advantage you still have 300lbs of load so you only reduce
> the total load on the pole by 1/2, the lowest you can get.
>
> another advantage of a pulley system like that is you can use a lighter weight
> rope since each pass of it between the pulleys divides the load up.  so for a
> 3:1 system with a 300lb load you only need a rope that can handle 100lb of
> tension instead of 300lb... but of course you have to pull 3x more of it to lift
> the same distance.
>
> K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 6/12/01 11:45:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > w7ni@easystreet.com writes:
> >
> > >  A 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle system does, indeed, relieve
> > >  about 1/3 of the load on the gin pole, in addition to reducing the number
> > of
> > > bodies required on  the pull rope.
> >
> >     You sure? Isn't a hundred-pound load going to weigh 100 pounds no matter
> > how the block and tackle are set up? The load effort on the end of the rope
> > will be reduced but the dead weight of the load stays the same. You still
> > need a suitable ginpole.
> >
>
> --
> David Robbins K1TTT
> e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
> web: http://www.k1ttt.net
> AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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From wb6yaw@dreamsoft.com  Wed Jun 13 16:03:38 2001
From: wb6yaw@dreamsoft.com (Jim)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:03:38 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <78.162c1044.2858c272@aol.com> <3B2768F7.58F93203@berkshire.net>
Message-ID: <3B2780C9.5911B676@dreamsoft.com>

Dave,

I'm not buying that.  It sounds logical at first but think about it.  To pull 300 lbs
up, it takes 300 lbs of pull, and since the upper pulley arrangement is actually going
to be located on the gin pole, guess what?  The 300 lbs of pull is going right into the
gin pole.  Sorry if I'm not real clear but I know what I mean!  HiHi.

73
Jim WB6YAW

David Robbins wrote:

> of course the lifting rope load remains the same, but the force required on the
> pulling end decreases so the total load on the gin pole does get reduced.
>
> for example, with a standard gin pole lifting 300lbs at the top of the pole you
> have a 300lb load plus 300lb of pull from the other side giving you a worst case
> 600lb force on the gin pole (static load, some more is required to get things
> moving, overcome friction, etc).
>
> with a 3:1 advantage pulley system you still have the 300lb load on one side,
> but the rope pulling down on the other side is only adding 100lbs of force to
> the pole, so the total is now 400lb.  which of course is a 1/3 reduction from
> the 600lb you started with.... note the 3:1 and the 1/3 reduction is just how it
> works out. with a 2:1 advantage you only reduce the total load from 600 to
> 450lbs of a reduction of only 1/4 of the load... and taken to extreme, with an
> infinite mechanical advantage you still have 300lbs of load so you only reduce
> the total load on the pole by 1/2, the lowest you can get.
>
> another advantage of a pulley system like that is you can use a lighter weight
> rope since each pass of it between the pulleys divides the load up.  so for a
> 3:1 system with a 300lb load you only need a rope that can handle 100lb of
> tension instead of 300lb... but of course you have to pull 3x more of it to lift
> the same distance.
>
> K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 6/12/01 11:45:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > w7ni@easystreet.com writes:
> >
> > >  A 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle system does, indeed, relieve
> > >  about 1/3 of the load on the gin pole, in addition to reducing the number
> > of
> > > bodies required on  the pull rope.
> >
> >     You sure? Isn't a hundred-pound load going to weigh 100 pounds no matter
> > how the block and tackle are set up? The load effort on the end of the rope
> > will be reduced but the dead weight of the load stays the same. You still
> > need a suitable ginpole.
> >
>
> --
> David Robbins K1TTT
> e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
> web: http://www.k1ttt.net
> AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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From n2mg@contesting.com  Wed Jun 13 16:05:40 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 13 Jun 2001 08:05:40 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010613150540.12759.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>

Steve, you are "half" right.

The lift effort is part of the overall load on the 
ginpole (everyone forgets this), so without any 
mechanical advantage there is 2X load weight applied 
to the ginpole.  If you employ a 3:1 advantage, and 
thereby reduce the lift force needed, you decrease the 
overall force on the ginpole.

73 Mike N2MG

On Wed, 13 June 2001, K7LXC@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 6/12/01 11:45:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> w7ni@easystreet.com writes:
> 
> >  A 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle system does, indeed, relieve
> >  about 1/3 of the load on the gin pole, in addition to reducing the number 
> of 
> > bodies required on  the pull rope.
> 
>     You sure? Isn't a hundred-pound load going to weigh 100 pounds no matter 
> how the block and tackle are set up? The load effort on the end of the rope 
> will be reduced but the dead weight of the load stays the same. You still 
> need a suitable ginpole. 
> 
> Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
> Tower Tech

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 

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From kbottles@rafn.com  Wed Jun 13 16:32:34 2001
From: kbottles@rafn.com (Kim Bottles)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:32:34 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <01C0F3E3.6640EA70.kbottles@rafn.com>

True, go ask any sailboat mast builder.

-----Original Message-----
From:	Mike Gilmer - N2MG [SMTP:n2mg@contesting.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, June 13, 2001 8:06 AM
To:	towertalk@contesting.com
Subject:	Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections

Steve, you are "half" right.

The lift effort is part of the overall load on the 
ginpole (everyone forgets this), so without any 
mechanical advantage there is 2X load weight applied 
to the ginpole.  If you employ a 3:1 advantage, and 
thereby reduce the lift force needed, you decrease the 
overall force on the ginpole.

73 Mike N2MG

On Wed, 13 June 2001, K7LXC@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 6/12/01 11:45:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> w7ni@easystreet.com writes:
> 
> >  A 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle system does, indeed, relieve
> >  about 1/3 of the load on the gin pole, in addition to reducing the number 
> of 
> > bodies required on  the pull rope.
> 
>     You sure? Isn't a hundred-pound load going to weigh 100 pounds no matter 
> how the block and tackle are set up? The load effort on the end of the rope 
> will be reduced but the dead weight of the load stays the same. You still 
> need a suitable ginpole. 
> 
> Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
> Tower Tech

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 

List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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From k2av@contesting.com  Wed Jun 13 16:37:14 2001
From: k2av@contesting.com (Guy Olinger, K2AV)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:37:14 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010613153803.PLEH9408.imf06bis.bellsouth.net@mail.bna.bellsouth.net>

This is a hash of my high school physics teacher's illustration on pulley mechanics. Stuck with me ever since. Something about a picture worth a 1000 words.

Lightweight Larry weighs 100 pounds. Normal Nelson weighs 150. Heavy Henry weighs 300 pounds. The tower section weighs 300 pounds.

Straight pulley: Heavy Henry on one side holding steady, section on the other. 600 pounds on the top hook.

2:1 advantage: Normal Nelson on one side holding steady, section on the other. 450 pounds on the top hook.

3:1 advantage: Lightweight Larry on one side holding steady, section on the other. 400 pounds on the top hook.

Fun part was class asked to calculate acceleration of Lightweight Larry on the straight pulley...

73

> 
> From: David Robbins <k1ttt@berkshire.net>
> Date: 2001/06/13 Wed PM 02:21:59 EDT
> To: K7LXC@aol.com, reflector -tower <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
> 
> of course the lifting rope load remains the same, but the force required on the
> pulling end decreases so the total load on the gin pole does get reduced.
> 
> for example, with a standard gin pole lifting 300lbs at the top of the pole you
> have a 300lb load plus 300lb of pull from the other side giving you a worst case
> 600lb force on the gin pole (static load, some more is required to get things
> moving, overcome friction, etc).
> 
> with a 3:1 advantage pulley system you still have the 300lb load on one side,
> but the rope pulling down on the other side is only adding 100lbs of force to
> the pole, so the total is now 400lb.  which of course is a 1/3 reduction from
> the 600lb you started with.... note the 3:1 and the 1/3 reduction is just how it
> works out. with a 2:1 advantage you only reduce the total load from 600 to
> 450lbs of a reduction of only 1/4 of the load... and taken to extreme, with an
> infinite mechanical advantage you still have 300lbs of load so you only reduce
> the total load on the pole by 1/2, the lowest you can get.
> 
> another advantage of a pulley system like that is you can use a lighter weight
> rope since each pass of it between the pulleys divides the load up.  so for a
> 3:1 system with a 300lb load you only need a rope that can handle 100lb of
> tension instead of 300lb... but of course you have to pull 3x more of it to lift
> the same distance.
> 
> K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > In a message dated 6/12/01 11:45:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > w7ni@easystreet.com writes:
> > 
> > >  A 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle system does, indeed, relieve
> > >  about 1/3 of the load on the gin pole, in addition to reducing the number
> > of
> > > bodies required on  the pull rope.
> > 
> >     You sure? Isn't a hundred-pound load going to weigh 100 pounds no matter
> > how the block and tackle are set up? The load effort on the end of the rope
> > will be reduced but the dead weight of the load stays the same. You still
> > need a suitable ginpole.
> > 
> 
> -- 
> David Robbins K1TTT
> e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
> web: http://www.k1ttt.net
> AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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> 
> 



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From n4kg@juno.com  Wed Jun 13 17:26:03 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:26:03 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010613.102849.-92533.1.N4KG@juno.com>

The pulley at the top of a gin pole merely changes 
the direction of the rope.  Please explain how a
block and tackle "Magically" reduces the force on
the rope to the top pulley and how to install the
block and tackle to achieve this magical reduction.

One more point.  One pulley can give a 2:1 mechanical
advantage if one end of the rope is attached to a FIXED
support.  If both ends of the rope are moving, there is 
NO mechanical advantage, only a direction change
plus loss due to friction.

de  Tom  N4KG

On 13 Jun 2001  Mike Gilmer - N2MG <n2mg@contesting.com> writes:
> Steve, you are "half" right.
> 
> The lift effort is part of the overall load on the 
> ginpole (everyone forgets this), so without any 
> mechanical advantage there is 2X load weight applied 
> to the ginpole.  If you employ a 3:1 advantage, and 
> thereby reduce the lift force needed, you decrease the 
> overall force on the ginpole.
> 
> 73 Mike N2MG
> 
> On Wed, 13 June 2001, K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > In a message dated 6/12/01 11:45:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> > w7ni@easystreet.com writes:
> > 
> > >  A 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle system does, 
> indeed, relieve
> > >  about 1/3 of the load on the gin pole, in addition to reducing 
> the number 
> > of 
> > > bodies required on  the pull rope.
> > 
> >     You sure? Isn't a hundred-pound load going to weigh 100 pounds 
> no matter 
> > how the block and tackle are set up? The load effort on the end of 
> the rope 
> > will be reduced but the dead weight of the load stays the same. 
> You still 
> > need a suitable ginpole. 
> > 
> > Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
> > Tower Tech
> 
> ________________________________________________
> PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
> http://www.peoplepc.com 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
> Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers 
> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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From nielsen@oz.net  Wed Jun 13 16:58:26 2001
From: nielsen@oz.net (Bob Nielsen)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:58:26 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Coax???
In-Reply-To: <3B276A47.BC7493E1@kb0ozn.com>
Message-ID: <20010613085826.B2333@oz.net>

On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 08:27:35AM -0500, MikeB wrote:
> Anybody out there ever heard of 'ARG-17A/U'???  It appears to be .75inch
> heliax of some sort.  I got about 50 feet of it from a guy who didn't
> know what the specs were.

I don't know about "ARG-17A/U", but RG-17A/U is flexible coax with an
O.D. of 17.3 mm (0.681 in.).  You could sort of look at it as the next
size up from RG-8/U.  If you can find a copy of MIL-C-17, that should
have the specs. 


-- 
Bob Nielsen, N7XY                          nielsen@oz.net
Bainbridge Island, WA                      http://www.oz.net/~nielsen
IOTA NA-065, USI WA-028S 

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From n2mg@contesting.com  Wed Jun 13 17:06:35 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 13 Jun 2001 09:06:35 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010613160635.13857.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>

Nothing "magical" about it...

http://www.howstuffworks.com/pulley.htm

has some good graphics although no description of the force on the fixed pulley (our ginpole), so one needs to sum up all the "down" forces.

73 Mike N2MG

On Wed, 13 June 2001, n4kg@juno.com wrote:

> 
> The pulley at the top of a gin pole merely changes 
> the direction of the rope.  Please explain how a
> block and tackle "Magically" reduces the force on
> the rope to the top pulley and how to install the
> block and tackle to achieve this magical reduction.
> 
> One more point.  One pulley can give a 2:1 mechanical
> advantage if one end of the rope is attached to a FIXED
> support.  If both ends of the rope are moving, there is 
> NO mechanical advantage, only a direction change
> plus loss due to friction.
> 
> de  Tom  N4KG
> 
> On 13 Jun 2001  Mike Gilmer - N2MG <n2mg@contesting.com> writes:
> > Steve, you are "half" right.
> > 
> > The lift effort is part of the overall load on the 
> > ginpole (everyone forgets this), so without any 
> > mechanical advantage there is 2X load weight applied 
> > to the ginpole.  If you employ a 3:1 advantage, and 
> > thereby reduce the lift force needed, you decrease the 
> > overall force on the ginpole.
> > 
> > 73 Mike N2MG
> > 
> > On Wed, 13 June 2001, K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > > In a message dated 6/12/01 11:45:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> > > w7ni@easystreet.com writes:
> > > 
> > > >  A 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle system does, 
> > indeed, relieve
> > > >  about 1/3 of the load on the gin pole, in addition to reducing 
> > the number 
> > > of 
> > > > bodies required on  the pull rope.
> > > 
> > >     You sure? Isn't a hundred-pound load going to weigh 100 pounds 
> > no matter 
> > > how the block and tackle are set up? The load effort on the end of 
> > the rope 
> > > will be reduced but the dead weight of the load stays the same. 
> > You still 
> > > need a suitable ginpole. 
> > > 
> > > Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
> > > Tower Tech
> > 
> > ________________________________________________
> > PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
> > http://www.peoplepc.com 
> > 
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
> > Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers 
> > - up to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> > HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> > 
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
> 
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> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
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________________________________________________
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http://www.peoplepc.com 

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From hwardsil@WOLFENET.com  Wed Jun 13 17:10:48 2001
From: hwardsil@WOLFENET.com (Ward Silver)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:10:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
In-Reply-To: <20010613160635.13857.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.1010613090826.9392D-100000@gonzo.wolfenet.com>

> > If both ends of the rope are moving, there is 
> > NO mechanical advantage, only a direction change
> > plus loss due to friction.
> > 
> > de  Tom  N4KG

Correct you are!  The minute Lightweight Larry begins his fateful upwards
journey, the whole equation changes.  Any downwards tension beyond his
weight disappears in that situation.

"And then, while I was laying there looking up at the bottom of the
barrel, I let go of the rope..."

73, Ward N0AX


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From k2av@contesting.com  Wed Jun 13 17:18:30 2001
From: k2av@contesting.com (Guy Olinger, K2AV)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:18:30 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010613161918.RJEG10219.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@mail.bna.bellsouth.net>

The reduction mechanism of a ganged pulley system is in the number of feet of rope the worker pulls in as a ratio to the distance the load travels. In a two to one system the worker pulls 200 feet of rope to lift the object 100 feet, thus the analog to a lever, and the advantage.

Two to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block, through pulley at top block, to worker. 

Three to one: rope tied at bottom block, through pulley at top block, through pulley at bottom block, through pulley at top block, to worker.

Four to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block, through pulley at top block, through pulley at bottom block, through pulley at top block, to worker.

73

> 
> From: Mike Gilmer - N2MG <n2mg@contesting.com>
> Date: 2001/06/13 Wed AM 09:06:35 EDT
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
> 
> Nothing "magical" about it...
> 




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From k1ttt@berkshire.net  Wed Jun 13 16:27:41 2001
From: k1ttt@berkshire.net (David Robbins)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:27:41 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <20010613.102849.-92533.1.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3B27866D.6BD17E77@berkshire.net>



n4kg@juno.com wrote:
> 
> The pulley at the top of a gin pole merely changes
> the direction of the rope.  Please explain how a
> block and tackle "Magically" reduces the force on
> the rope to the top pulley and how to install the
> block and tackle to achieve this magical reduction.

start with this, a single pulley at B with a 300lb load at C and a 300lb person
at A holding it off the ground.  there is 300lb of tension in the rope to hold
the load up, so at B there is 300lb pulling down going to C and 300lb more
pulling down going to A so the total on the support at B is 600lb... no magic
here, the pulley at B only changes the direction of the force.

--------------------------------------
        B|      
        /O\     
       /   \    
      /     \   
     /       \  
    /         \ 
   /           \
   A           C|



> 
> One more point.  One pulley can give a 2:1 mechanical
> advantage if one end of the rope is attached to a FIXED
> support.  If both ends of the rope are moving, there is
> NO mechanical advantage, only a direction change
> plus loss due to friction.

ok, so you understand the 2:1 advantage of the single moving pulley.. Fix the
rope to a support at D, run through the pulley at C that is attached to the
load, and pull up at B.

--------------------------------------
                       /D
          B           /
           \         /
            \       /
             \     /
              \   /
               \O/
               C|

so now to lift the load at C you are pulling up at B.  Since there are two
segments of the rope supporting the weight at C each of them must carry half
this load.  so for a 300lb load the force on each rope C-B and C-D, so each of
them has to support 1/2 the load weight or 150lb.  so as you expect the lifter
at B only exerts 150lb of lift for the 2:1 advantage.  the other 150lb is
pulling down at D, so the load on the support is only 1/2 the weight... this is
the magic!  you have divided the load to 2 different supports thereby reducing
your effort by 1/2, though you do have to pull twice as much rope to move the
load the same distance as before.

now take the line you are pulling up on to lift something with that single
pulley and run it through another pulley so you can pull down on it while
lifting the load attached to the moving pulley.  note, the new pulley does only
change the direction of the pull as you would expect for a gin pole pulley.

so now you have an arrangement like this with a pulley 'C' holding the load, and
a pulley 'B' attached to the ceiling(or gin pole), where the end 'D' is also
attached.


--------------------------------------
        B|             /D
        /O\           /
       /   \         /
      /     \       /
     /       \     /
    /         \   /
   /           \O/
   A           C|

now, lets put that 300lb load at C.  you will agree that the person pulling on
the rope at A only needs to exert 150lbs on the rope.  so looking at point B
there is 150lb on the rope from A and 150lb on the rope going to C for a total
of 300lb on the support at B.  the rope going up to the fixed end at D also has
150lb of tension so the force on D is 150lb.  so the total downward force on the
top support is now 450lb.  at C there is 150lb upward on the rope going to B and
150lb upward on the rope going to D so you have the 300lb total needed to keep
the 300lbs at C in the air.


of course if B is the top pulley on the gin pole you would attach the dead end
shown above at D to the top of the pole, and then have the moving pulley C below
it... it gets messy to draw in text but would look something like this:

        B|             
        /O\ 
       | | |
       | | |
       | | |
       | | |
       | | |
       | \O/C
       |  |
      A|  

getting a 3:1 advantage would require another fixed pulley at the top of the
pole to reverse the direction again and then attach the dead end to the lifting
pulley.  this results in 3 segments of rope supporting the load so each one only
supports 1/3 of the weight of the load and the lifting force needed at A would
be 1/3 of the weight.  so you still have the full load weight being supported by
the ropes between B and C.  then to find the total load that B must support you
add the load weight to the rope tension exerted at A.


-- 
David Robbins K1TTT
e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
web: http://www.k1ttt.net
AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net

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From n4kg@juno.com  Wed Jun 13 18:02:59 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:02:59 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010613.110314.-92533.2.N4KG@juno.com>

N4KG comments / questions inserted below.

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:37:14 -0400 "Guy Olinger, K2AV"
<k2av@contesting.com> writes:

> This is a hash of my high school physics teacher's illustration on 
> pulley mechanics. Stuck with me ever since. Something about a 
> picture worth a 1000 words.
> 
> Lightweight Larry weighs 100 pounds. Normal Nelson weighs 150. Heavy 
> Henry weighs 300 pounds. The tower section weighs 300 pounds.
> 
> Straight pulley: Heavy Henry on one side holding steady, section on 
> the other. 600 pounds on the top hook.
> 
> 2:1 advantage: Normal Nelson on one side holding steady, section on 
> the other. 450 pounds on the top hook.

	How is this 2:1 mechanical advantage achieved?

	Scenario 1 -  End of rope is attached to the frame
	of the top pulley.  Rope runs down to Second pulley 
	with hook at load.  Rope then runs up and through
	the TOP pulley.  Force in each vertical run of the
	rope is 150 lbs.  450 lbs on top hook as proposed.

	This is NOT how a gin pole is configured.  

	In a block and tackle, one end of the pull rope 
	is attached to one of the pulleys.  The LOAD is
	attached to one of the end hooks.  Multiple
	pulleys can be mounted co-axially.  

	A block and tackle can be used to pull the rope
	through the gin pole (two ropes required) but
	the Gin Pole Pulley CANNOT be configured to
	be part of a block and tackle.  de  N4KG
	
> 
> 3:1 advantage: Lightweight Larry on one side holding steady, section 
> on the other. 400 pounds on the top hook.
> 
> Fun part was class asked to calculate acceleration of Lightweight 
> Larry on the straight pulley...
> 
> 73
> 
> > 
> > From: David Robbins <k1ttt@berkshire.net>
> > Date: 2001/06/13 Wed PM 02:21:59 EDT
> > To: K7LXC@aol.com, reflector -tower <towertalk@contesting.com>
> > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
> > 
> > of course the lifting rope load remains the same, but the force 
> required on the
> > pulling end decreases so the total load on the gin pole does get 
> reduced.
> > 
> > for example, with a standard gin pole lifting 300lbs at the top of 
> the pole you
> > have a 300lb load plus 300lb of pull from the other side giving 
> you a worst case
> > 600lb force on the gin pole (static load, some more is required to 
> get things
> > moving, overcome friction, etc).
> > 
> > with a 3:1 advantage pulley system you still have the 300lb load 
> on one side,
> > but the rope pulling down on the other side is only adding 100lbs 
> of force to
> > the pole, so the total is now 400lb.  which of course is a 1/3 
> reduction from
> > the 600lb you started with.... note the 3:1 and the 1/3 reduction 
> is just how it
> > works out. with a 2:1 advantage you only reduce the total load 
> from 600 to
> > 450lbs of a reduction of only 1/4 of the load... and taken to 
> extreme, with an
> > infinite mechanical advantage you still have 300lbs of load so you 
> only reduce
> > the total load on the pole by 1/2, the lowest you can get.
> > 
> > another advantage of a pulley system like that is you can use a 
> lighter weight
> > rope since each pass of it between the pulleys divides the load 
> up.  so for a
> > 3:1 system with a 300lb load you only need a rope that can handle 
> 100lb of
> > tension instead of 300lb... but of course you have to pull 3x more 
> of it to lift
> > the same distance.
> > 
> > K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
> > > 
> > > In a message dated 6/12/01 11:45:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > > w7ni@easystreet.com writes:
> > > 
> > > >  A 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle system does, 
> indeed, relieve
> > > >  about 1/3 of the load on the gin pole, in addition to 
> reducing the number
> > > of
> > > > bodies required on  the pull rope.
> > > 
> > >     You sure? Isn't a hundred-pound load going to weigh 100 
> pounds no matter
> > > how the block and tackle are set up? The load effort on the end 
> of the rope
> > > will be reduced but the dead weight of the load stays the same. 
> You still
> > > need a suitable ginpole.
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > David Robbins K1TTT
> > e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
> > web: http://www.k1ttt.net
> > AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net
> > 
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this 
> summer? Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting 
> towers - up to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> > 
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > 
> > 
> 

> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
> Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers 
> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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> 

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From nielsen@oz.net  Wed Jun 13 17:35:47 2001
From: nielsen@oz.net (Bob Nielsen)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:35:47 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Coax???
In-Reply-To: <20010613085826.B2333@oz.net>
Message-ID: <20010613093546.A2702@oz.net>

On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 08:58:26AM -0700, Bob Nielsen wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 08:27:35AM -0500, MikeB wrote:
> > Anybody out there ever heard of 'ARG-17A/U'???  It appears to be .75inch
> > heliax of some sort.  I got about 50 feet of it from a guy who didn't
> > know what the specs were.
> 
> I don't know about "ARG-17A/U", but RG-17A/U is flexible coax with an
> O.D. of 17.3 mm (0.681 in.).  You could sort of look at it as the next
> size up from RG-8/U.  If you can find a copy of MIL-C-17, that should
> have the specs. 


I double-checked and that is the diameter over the dielectric.  The
O.D. wasn't listed on the sheet I found, but ~.75 or so sounds about
right.  I have seen it before and recall it is pretty big stuff (the
term 'flexible' doesn't quite seem appropriate).  I don't remember what
material was used for the dielectric.

Bob

-- 
Bob Nielsen, N7XY                          nielsen@oz.net
Bainbridge Island, WA                      http://www.oz.net/~nielsen
IOTA NA-065, USI WA-028S 

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From 00tlzivney@bsuvc.bsu.edu  Wed Jun 13 18:00:30 2001
From: 00tlzivney@bsuvc.bsu.edu (Terry L. Zivney)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:00:30 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Father's Day gift ideas
Message-ID: <3B279C2E.3D317ADA@bsuvc.bsu.edu>

Given the recent discussion about comealongs and TIC rings, I thought
the following post from last year would be appropriate:

Every year about this time my wife and daughter ask what I would like
for
Father's Day.  I already have these items, which I think would make
great
Dad's Day gifts for Tower guys.

1) from McMaster-Carr (www.McMaster-Carr.com) a worm-gear puller-hoist
this is a super-duper come-along with worm-gear drive.  Two nice
features
are that it fits between the rungs of Rohn 45 (and probably 25) -
hanging
from one horizontal rung to pull up masts.  This works much more cleanly
than the typical lever-operated come-alongs.  The second feature is that
it is very smooth - you can make very small adjustments up or down
unlike
the ratchet motion of normal comealongs which also tends to overshoot
slightly.  This worm drive is a dream.  $87.92 plus S&H item 33615T15

2) The GearWrench ratcheting combination wrench.  I bought two, a 1/2"
and a 5/8", for about $9 each at NAPA auto supply.  The nice things
about
these wrenches are that they don't have the large shroud around the
ratchet
like the Craftsman wrenches so they fit into really tight spaces, like
the inside of my ring rotors.  Second, they only need a 5 degree swing
to
work - unlike a normal box wrench.  They also have stubby versions of
the 
same items, but I prefer the normal lengths because I'm not a gorilla
with finger strength.  Sears is currently running a sale on a set
of 7 Gearwrenches for $39.99.

3) anything from K7LXC's Champion Radio - I especially like the medium
duty (300 pound) web slings, which are much more flexible than the OSHA
types normally found at McMaster-Carr and other industrial supply
places.
I use the OSHA yellow ones for the big jobs (like the 300+ pound 20
meter
/40 meter combo beam) but use the others a lot more, like for wrapping
around the ORION rotor and using a carabiner to hold it to the tower
rungs
so I don't drop it to the ground below.

OK, now I need something to tell my wife to get for me.  Any ideas?

Terry Zivney, N4TZ/9

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From k2av@contesting.com  Wed Jun 13 18:23:30 2001
From: k2av@contesting.com (Guy Olinger, K2AV)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:23:30 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010613172419.RQBF9408.imf06bis.bellsouth.net@mail.bna.bellsouth.net>

See other post on how advantage achieved.

> 	This is NOT how a gin pole is configured.  

A gin pole is just a device to give an attachment opportunity high enough above already accomplished structure to allow fixing various lifting devices to control both vertical and horizontal forces on the next section for easy attachment. It doesn't imply any particular lifting arrangement, though some may be manufactured with a particular device integral.

Other than a single pulley, the top hook of a 4:1 block and tackle setup is another device that can be attached to the top of a gin pole. I've seen an electric winch fitted to a gin pole.

73




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From k1ttt@berkshire.net  Wed Jun 13 17:37:39 2001
From: k1ttt@berkshire.net (David Robbins)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:37:39 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <20010613172419.RQBF9408.imf06bis.bellsouth.net@mail.bna.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3B2796D3.4A3B8B1B@berkshire.net>

i have not had a need to do it, but a 2:1 arrangement would also be easy to do. 
all you need to do is tie one end of the rope to the top of the pole, run
through a single moving pulley where you attach the load, then go through the
normal gin pole pulley and back to the ground.  of course it takes 50% more rope
than just going up and over the gin pole pulley.  why not DOUBLE the rope you
may say??? well, think about it... in the normal setup you go up the tower and
back down to the load.  with a 2:1 setup like this you go up the tower, down to
the moving pulley, and then back up to the top... so you only have one extra
length going up the tower... each increment in mechanical advantage adds one
more length equal to the max lift height to the length of rope needed.  so a 3:1
advantage only needs 2x the rope as the 1:1 normal use of the gin pole.

"Guy Olinger, K2AV" wrote:
> 
> See other post on how advantage achieved.
> 
> >       This is NOT how a gin pole is configured.
> 
> A gin pole is just a device to give an attachment opportunity high enough above already 
>accomplished structure to allow fixing various lifting devices to control both vertical and 
>horizontal forces on the next section for easy attachment. It doesn't imply any particular lifting 
>arrangement, though some may be manufactured with a particular device integral.
> 
> Other than a single pulley, the top hook of a 4:1 block and tackle setup is another device that can 
>be attached to the top of a gin pole. I've seen an electric winch fitted to a gin pole.


-- 
David Robbins K1TTT
e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
web: http://www.k1ttt.net
AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net

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From n2mg@contesting.com  Wed Jun 13 18:40:39 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 13 Jun 2001 10:40:39 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010613174039.16136.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>

On Wed, 13 June 2001, n4kg@juno.com wrote:

> How is this 2:1 mechanical advantage achieved?
> 
> Scenario 1 -  End of rope is attached to the frame
> of the top pulley.  Rope runs down to Second pulley 
> with hook at load.  Rope then runs up and through
> the TOP pulley.  Force in each vertical run of the
> rope is 150 lbs.  450 lbs on top hook as proposed.
> 
> This is NOT how a gin pole is configured.  
> 
> In a block and tackle, one end of the pull rope 
> is attached to one of the pulleys.  The LOAD is
> attached to one of the end hooks.  Multiple
> pulleys can be mounted co-axially.  


Why is this NOT how a gin pole is configured? Even if one ties the fixed end of the rope to the tower (say when lifting a beam or rotator that need not rise above the tower top), one has not materially changed the configuration and still achieves 2:1 with a movable pulley at the load. BTDT.

A discussion that was, until recently, about the total load on a gin pole seems to have devolved into a semantical discussion of just what constitutes a "block and tackle" and the acceptable uses of a gin pole.

I've seen the term "block and tackle" used for various combinations of fixed and movable pulleys (when achieving some mechanical advantage).

73 Mike N2MG

________________________________________________
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http://www.peoplepc.com 

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From mfarrer@tality.com  Wed Jun 13 18:38:17 2001
From: mfarrer@tality.com (Mel Farrer)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:38:17 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <97A30A2BBA23D411842900D0B726125D616458@srvex03-sanjose.Cadence.COM>

Just a point of clarity, a gin pole is also the structure that is used to
erect an assembled tower/antenna/pole from a horizontal to a vertical
position.

-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Olinger, K2AV [mailto:k2av@contesting.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 10:24 AM
To: n4kg@juno.com; TOWERTALK@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections


See other post on how advantage achieved.

> 	This is NOT how a gin pole is configured.  

A gin pole is just a device to give an attachment opportunity high enough
above already accomplished structure to allow fixing various lifting devices
to control both vertical and horizontal forces on the next section for easy
attachment. It doesn't imply any particular lifting arrangement, though some
may be manufactured with a particular device integral.

Other than a single pulley, the top hook of a 4:1 block and tackle setup is
another device that can be attached to the top of a gin pole. I've seen an
electric winch fitted to a gin pole.

73




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From n4kg@juno.com  Wed Jun 13 19:17:39 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:17:39 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010613.121844.-92533.3.N4KG@juno.com>

I agree completely with your analysis Guy.  Which end of the 
gin pole rope is attached to a "block" ?  q.e.d.

Bottom Line:  The mechanical advantage in a lossless system
equals the number of supporting segments between the LOAD
and the SUPPORT.

For a GIN POLE this number is ONE i.e. NO mechanical advantage.

Sum of Forces approach:  Load on one side of the gin pole pulley
must be balanced by the "pull" on the opposite side.  The Gin pole
supports the LOAD plus PULL, or twice the weight of the load.

Rope In = Rope Out approach:  The amount of rope going into 
the gin pole pulley equals the amount of rope coming out of the
gin pole pulley.  Mechanical advantage = ONE.

The gin pole rope MAY be attached to the HOOK of a Block
and Tackle which will provide a mechanical advantage to the
puller but NOT to the gin pole.  The other end of the block
and tackle is presumably anchored to the ground.  Two ropes
are involved here.  The block and tackle rope will travel X times
the distance of the load where X is the mechanical advantage.
The gin pole rope will travel the same distance as the load,
i.e., the height of the tower.

Time for a new thread.

de  Tom  N4KG


On Wed, 13 Jun 2001  "Guy Olinger, K2AV" <k2av@contesting.com> writes:

> The reduction mechanism of a ganged pulley system is in the number of 
> feet of rope the worker pulls in as a ratio to the distance the load 
> travels. In a two to one system the worker pulls 200 feet of rope to 
> lift the object 100 feet, thus the analog to a lever, and the 
> advantage.
> 
> Two to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block, 
> through pulley at top block, to worker. 
> 
> Three to one: rope tied at bottom block, through pulley at top 
> block, through pulley at bottom block, through pulley at top block, 
> to worker.
> 
> Four to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block, 
> through pulley at top block, through pulley at bottom block, through 
> pulley at top block, to worker.
> 
> 73
> 
> > 
> > From: Mike Gilmer - N2MG <n2mg@contesting.com>
> > Date: 2001/06/13 Wed AM 09:06:35 EDT
> > To: towertalk@contesting.com
> > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
> > 
> > Nothing "magical" about it...
> > 
> 
> 
> 

________________________________________________________________
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From ebailley@tscnet.com  Wed Jun 13 18:46:48 2001
From: ebailley@tscnet.com (Earl Bailley)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:46:48 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <20010613150540.12759.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <3B27A708.40570D95@tscnet.com>



Three to one or ten to one advantage via pulley systems all acrue to the puller.

Gravity still says to lift up 300 pound up  the effect at the pull to point will still
be 300 pounds regardless of effort (more or less) seen by the puller.

However it must be remembered that I did not invest in DOT COMS so while I lost none in
the crash I gained none in the rise.  This time if I am wrong I will invest in some of
those fancy pulleys.

Earl  W7TK


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From k2av@contesting.com  Wed Jun 13 18:47:46 2001
From: k2av@contesting.com (Guy Olinger, K2AV)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:47:46 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010613174834.PWQ7728.imf12bis.bellsouth.net@mail.bna.bellsouth.net>


> Just a point of clarity, a gin pole is also the structure that is used to
> erect an assembled tower/antenna/pole from a horizontal to a vertical
> position.

In that case the already accomplished structure is the base structure, which could be just a hole in the ground, or a ring bracket on the deck of a ship.




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From n4kg@juno.com  Wed Jun 13 19:45:39 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:45:39 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010613.124617.-92533.5.N4KG@juno.com>

More N4KG observations and comments inserted below.  

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:18:30 -0400 "Guy Olinger, K2AV"
<k2av@contesting.com> writes:
> The reduction mechanism of a ganged pulley system is in the number of 
> feet of rope the worker pulls in as a ratio to the distance the load 
> travels. In a two to one system the worker pulls 200 feet of rope to 
> lift the object 100 feet, thus the analog to a lever, and the 
> advantage.

	The distance traveled is a RESULT of the mechanical
	advantage, NOT the CAUSE, but can be used to calculate
	the mechanical advantage.   N4KG
 
> Two to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block, 
> through pulley at top block, to worker. 
> 
> Three to one: rope tied at bottom block, through pulley at top 
> block, through pulley at bottom block, through pulley at top block, 
> to worker.
> 
> Four to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block, 
> through pulley at top block, through pulley at bottom block, through 
> pulley at top block, to worker.
> 
> 73

	Note the presense of MULTIPLE pulleys at the top
	of the block and tackle.  A  GIN pole has only ONE
	pulley at the top.  The only way to get a mechanical
	advantage is to use a SEPARATE block and tackle
	with a SECOND ROPE.  As I said before, this helps
	the puller but does nothing to reduce the load on the
	GIN Pole.   de  Tom  N4KG

> 
> > 
> > From: Mike Gilmer - N2MG <n2mg@contesting.com>
> > Date: 2001/06/13 Wed AM 09:06:35 EDT
> > To: towertalk@contesting.com
> > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
> > 
> > Nothing "magical" about it...
> > 
 

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From bjk@ihug.co.nz  Wed Jun 13 19:21:03 2001
From: bjk@ihug.co.nz (Barry Kirkwood)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 06:21:03 +1200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: GB> update / marconi speculation.
References: <20010613.101914.-235491.1.wd4nka@juno.com>
Message-ID: <004901c0f435$9e1b30c0$d5d0adcb@ihug.co.nz>

The Marconi "S" story is indeed a bit mysterious.
Couple of points:
The Marconi group believed the wavelength was 300m ie 1 mHz. Belrose has
calculated the natural resonance of the tx ant at 817kHz.
The actual detector (coherer, diode?) used at Newfoundland is not known, but
apparently 500ft of wire was lifted by kite from a hill top overlooking the
sea.
This would make a sloping wire at an angle to the sea, giving half a V
against a groundplane.
This antenna would have some directional gain even at mf.
Apart from any antenna resonance the rx was aperiodic.
Signals from England were alleged to have been received at around 1500
Newfoundland local time.
I do not know if any one has done computer modelling of the situation.
It would be possible to make a retrospective estimate of ionospheric
conditions and model the rx antenna, detector and headphones.
Since the tx antenna was a monopole one would predict that the odd harmonics
would be strongest:
ie approx 800, 2400, 4000, 5600, 7200, 8800..........
We  know that the wind pointed the antenna East, hence rx antenna
directional gain would increase with frequency ( while the losses in the
detector would possibly increase with frequency).
One could model the vertical half bow tie TX antenna for the harmonics.
I am not very familiar with the transatlantic path, but 5.6 mHz harmonics
and up look good to me.
There was no independent witness for the reception so the possiblity of
deliberate fraud or honestly mistaking QRN for the "S' cannot be ruled out.
The Poldhu transmitter was also monitored by a ship and independent
witnesses heard the presumed fundamental at night up to 1500 miles out
which is not unexpected .Using computer modelling one could use this info to
get another estimate of the rx system sensitivity also. I believe the ship
antenna was a wire between the masts with  a downlead worked against the
steel hull, would have been mighty on 800 or 2400 kHz.
Would love to hear the good Dr Bold's and others views on this.
73

end
Barry Kirkwood PhD ZL1DD
Signal Hill Homestay
66 Cory Road
Palm Beach
Waiheke Island 1240
NEW ZEALAND
www.waiheke.co.nz/signal.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Johanson <wd4nka@juno.com>
To: <david@computan.on.ca>
Cc: <glowbugs@piobaire.mines.uidaho.edu>
Sent: Thursday, 14 June, 2001 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: GB> update / marconi speculation.


> On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:50:30 -0400 David Wilson <david@computan.on.ca>
> writes:
>
> >   It has a 1/2 KW 12,000 volt supply, and I feel I should be able to
> > get
> > about 100 watts out of her. I will inform the group of any testing
> > so
> > they can give me a report.
> >   It has a rotary gap with 8 contacts in it turning at 1800 rpm so
> > it
> > will produce a 240 hertz note.
> >
> > cheers David ve3bbn
> >
>
> Hi, David:
>
> Rotary spark . . . hmmm . . . thought that was
> universally banned, but are they allowing
> exceptions in leu of the 100th anniversary ?
> ( personally, i hope so!  I have always wanted
> to hear a genuine spark signal over the Ether
> with my own ears!! )
>
> Concerning that letter "S" transmission from
> Pohldu to [ was it ] Newfoundland (?) ---------->
>
> I have an interesting article from HRH speculating
> on the probablility of a signal, received in the after-
> noon on such a low frequency using propagation
> that does not normally occur during that time. (Even
> though it was winter, a good time for VLF)
>
> Either :  1) marconi was extremely lucky to have
> stumbled into just the right unusual circumstance
> to pick up a VLF signal in daylight hours using a
> receiver equivalent to a crystal set in sensitivity,
> ( which isn't impossible, but with a passive detector,
> unlikely )  or
>
> 2) He was actually listening to a shortwave signal
> and didn't know it.  Apparently the original receiving
> site had to be shut down, and the receive apparatus
> was changed to a stand-by receiver at the new location.
>
> This other receiver was untuned.  When the signal
> was received ( remember that the transmitting signal
> was a very powerful harmonic generator . . .something
> they didn't worry about in 1901 ) it was identified by
> the controled rythym of the three dits against the
> dinn of static crashes and general QRN.  An easy letter
> to hear.   A very real possibility exists that what marconi
> actually heard was a high frequency harmonic taking
> advantage of daytime propagation, which would
> present the detector with a fairly strong signal.  Or,
> since the receiver was untuned, SEVERAL simultaneous
> harmonics !!  ( there is some speculation concerning
> the kite-lifted antennae dynamics being resonant somewhere
> in the HF spectrum, which would tend to enhance reception
> of such a harmonic )
>
> So that trans-atlantic transmission may have also
> been the first SW trans-atlantic, after all.
>
> I am very careful to say that the author is purely speculating,
> necessary data was not taken, and none of us were there.
> Therefore, we'll never really know for sure.  But it is an
> interesting speculation, none the less.
>
> ( I would like to reproduce the article, but copyright
> questions make this a dubious move.  HRH has been
> gone now for twenty years, but still, you never know. As
> an  alternative, i may  reconstitute the bibliography and
> post the basic outline of the article for anyone to
> research for themselves to my site. If there is sufficient
> interest. )
>
>
>
> vy 73
> gary // wd4nka
> " . . . who forgets the past forfeits the future . . ."
>
> ________________________________________________________________
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From epetek1@att.net  Wed Jun 13 19:17:43 2001
From: epetek1@att.net (epetek1@att.net)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:17:43 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] guy anchors
Message-ID: <20010613181744.GDVE2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net>

Im looking for a source in the NE preferably New York 
area for screw in guy anchors. - the long ones 6-8 feet 
with the wide flange bottoms- I guess they're about 8" 
across- any help greatly appreciated - Pete W2YG

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From paulfinch@msn.com  Wed Jun 13 19:24:18 2001
From: paulfinch@msn.com (Paul Finch)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:24:18 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
In-Reply-To: <20010613.124617.-92533.5.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <CHEAIHGJHDFPBLKFBDLIMEGECEAA.paulfinch@msn.com>

Hello,

So the weight exhibited to the Gin pole at the top pulley mount point is the
down force of the load line plus down force it takes to hold the load static
at the workers end of the load line?  No matter how many times the
advantage.  Right?

Paul Finch
WB5IDM




-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of n4kg@juno.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 1:46 PM
To: TOWERTALK@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections


More N4KG observations and comments inserted below.

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:18:30 -0400 "Guy Olinger, K2AV"
<k2av@contesting.com> writes:
> The reduction mechanism of a ganged pulley system is in the number of
> feet of rope the worker pulls in as a ratio to the distance the load
> travels. In a two to one system the worker pulls 200 feet of rope to
> lift the object 100 feet, thus the analog to a lever, and the
> advantage.

	The distance traveled is a RESULT of the mechanical
	advantage, NOT the CAUSE, but can be used to calculate
	the mechanical advantage.   N4KG

> Two to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block,
> through pulley at top block, to worker.
>
> Three to one: rope tied at bottom block, through pulley at top
> block, through pulley at bottom block, through pulley at top block,
> to worker.
>
> Four to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block,
> through pulley at top block, through pulley at bottom block, through
> pulley at top block, to worker.
>
> 73

	Note the presense of MULTIPLE pulleys at the top
	of the block and tackle.  A  GIN pole has only ONE
	pulley at the top.  The only way to get a mechanical
	advantage is to use a SEPARATE block and tackle
	with a SECOND ROPE.  As I said before, this helps
	the puller but does nothing to reduce the load on the
	GIN Pole.   de  Tom  N4KG

>
> >
> > From: Mike Gilmer - N2MG <n2mg@contesting.com>
> > Date: 2001/06/13 Wed AM 09:06:35 EDT
> > To: towertalk@contesting.com
> > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
> >
> > Nothing "magical" about it...
> >


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From k1ttt@berkshire.net  Wed Jun 13 18:27:30 2001
From: k1ttt@berkshire.net (David Robbins)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:27:30 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <20010613.124617.-92533.5.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3B27A282.D249650E@berkshire.net>



n4kg@juno.com wrote:
>         Note the presense of MULTIPLE pulleys at the top
>         of the block and tackle.  A  GIN pole has only ONE
>         pulley at the top.  The only way to get a mechanical
>         advantage is to use a SEPARATE block and tackle
>         with a SECOND ROPE.  As I said before, this helps
>         the puller but does nothing to reduce the load on the
>         GIN Pole.   de  Tom  N4KG
> 

wrong... as i pointed out it is possible to get an advantage for both the puller
and the pole by the use of a single top pulley and a single travelling pulley. 
that is the basic 2:1 system where you pull down to lift the traveling pulley
and load up.

-- 
David Robbins K1TTT
e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
web: http://www.k1ttt.net
AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net

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From n2mg@contesting.com  Wed Jun 13 19:34:45 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 13 Jun 2001 11:34:45 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010613183445.19589.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>

Yes, right.

But this is not, apparently, what N4KG is saying...

The kicker is, in your words, "plus down force it takes to hold the load static at the workers end of the load line".

In a system with mechanical advantage, this worker-applied down force has been reduced - that's the whole idea!  When this down force has been reduced, it reduces the total load on the gin pole.

73 Mike N2MG

On Wed, 13 June 2001, "Paul Finch" wrote:

> So the weight exhibited to the Gin pole at the top 
> pulley mount point is the down force of the load 
> line plus down force it takes to hold the load static
> at the workers end of the load line?  No matter how 
> many times the advantage.  Right?
> 
> Paul Finch
> WB5IDM
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of n4kg@juno.com
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 1:46 PM
> To: TOWERTALK@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
> 
> 
> More N4KG observations and comments inserted below.
> 
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:18:30 -0400 "Guy Olinger, K2AV"
> <k2av@contesting.com> writes:
> > The reduction mechanism of a ganged pulley system is in the number of
> > feet of rope the worker pulls in as a ratio to the distance the load
> > travels. In a two to one system the worker pulls 200 feet of rope to
> > lift the object 100 feet, thus the analog to a lever, and the
> > advantage.
> 
>     The distance traveled is a RESULT of the mechanical
>     advantage, NOT the CAUSE, but can be used to calculate
>     the mechanical advantage.   N4KG
> 
> > Two to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block,
> > through pulley at top block, to worker.
> >
> > Three to one: rope tied at bottom block, through pulley at top
> > block, through pulley at bottom block, through pulley at top block,
> > to worker.
> >
> > Four to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block,
> > through pulley at top block, through pulley at bottom block, through
> > pulley at top block, to worker.
> >
> > 73
> 
>     Note the presense of MULTIPLE pulleys at the top
>     of the block and tackle.  A  GIN pole has only ONE
>     pulley at the top.  The only way to get a mechanical
>     advantage is to use a SEPARATE block and tackle
>     with a SECOND ROPE.  As I said before, this helps
>     the puller but does nothing to reduce the load on the
>     GIN Pole.   de  Tom  N4KG
> 
> >

________________________________________________
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From ag0n@arrl.net  Wed Jun 13 19:36:38 2001
From: ag0n@arrl.net (Gary McDuffie, Sr.)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:36:38 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
In-Reply-To: <3B27866D.6BD17E77@berkshire.net>
References: <20010613.102849.-92533.1.N4KG@juno.com> <3B27866D.6BD17E77@berkshire.net>
Message-ID: <1tbfitk2jkc08r93ln0mt5bsbgrktqt0n7@4ax.com>

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:27:41 +0100, David Robbins wrote:

> ok, so you understand the 2:1 advantage of the single moving pulley..

Hot damn!  Someone finally 'splained this so that some of us
non-gradgiated folk kin unnerstand it!

I knew what was being said was true, but when I tried to put the
argument on paper, I couldn't make it work.  This simple example (along
with one more drawing showing the 3:1 advantage config) should be
archived and referred back to anytime this question comes up (and it
does now and then).  If I can understand it, ANYONE CAN!

Thank you Mr. Robbins!

Gary

ag0n at arrl dot net
http://mcduffie.ws
-- 

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From paulfinch@msn.com  Wed Jun 13 19:44:05 2001
From: paulfinch@msn.com (Paul Finch)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:44:05 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] DB-304 Antennas and 3 degrees down tilt
Message-ID: <CHEAIHGJHDFPBLKFBDLIAEGGCEAA.paulfinch@msn.com>

Hello,

A Ham friend and I have a couple of tall towers that we are getting
complaints of getting into the repeaters while fairly close to the tower.
Both of these towers use receive multicoupler systems off the top of the
tower and transmit combiners off lower antennas.  We both run Ham repeaters.
We both have commercial systems on these towers to support our toys (500
foot towers).

Has anyone out there played with the Decibel Products DB-304 antenna phasing
harness to achieve 3 degrees of down tilt at the 3 dB half power point?  I
have talked to one of the design engineers that originally designed the 304
antenna around 30 years ago.  He did some initial testing on down tilting
this antenna but can't remember the cable lengths to accomplish 3 degrees of
down tilt.  Unfortunately, he no longer works for DB and DB will not make
the harnesses.  Is there an antenna simulator out there that would help?

Paul Finch
WB5IDM


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From James.E.Brown@lrdor.usace.army.mil  Wed Jun 13 19:50:37 2001
From: James.E.Brown@lrdor.usace.army.mil (Brown, James E LRDOR)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:50:37 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <49B1F0812748D211A39100805F9FA681012CE5FC@lrdormail01.lrd.usace.army.mil>

And what if there are no workers applying "downforce", but instead the end
of the line is tied off to a tree, and the load is suspended static?  

Jim   W4LC

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Finch [mailto:paulfinch@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 2:24 PM
To: Tower Talk; n4kg@juno.com
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections


Hello,

So the weight exhibited to the Gin pole at the top pulley mount point is the
down force of the load line plus down force it takes to hold the load static
at the workers end of the load line?  No matter how many times the
advantage.  Right?

Paul Finch
WB5IDM




-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of n4kg@juno.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 1:46 PM
To: TOWERTALK@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections


More N4KG observations and comments inserted below.

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:18:30 -0400 "Guy Olinger, K2AV"
<k2av@contesting.com> writes:
> The reduction mechanism of a ganged pulley system is in the number of
> feet of rope the worker pulls in as a ratio to the distance the load
> travels. In a two to one system the worker pulls 200 feet of rope to
> lift the object 100 feet, thus the analog to a lever, and the
> advantage.

	The distance traveled is a RESULT of the mechanical
	advantage, NOT the CAUSE, but can be used to calculate
	the mechanical advantage.   N4KG

> Two to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block,
> through pulley at top block, to worker.
>
> Three to one: rope tied at bottom block, through pulley at top
> block, through pulley at bottom block, through pulley at top block,
> to worker.
>
> Four to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block,
> through pulley at top block, through pulley at bottom block, through
> pulley at top block, to worker.
>
> 73

	Note the presense of MULTIPLE pulleys at the top
	of the block and tackle.  A  GIN pole has only ONE
	pulley at the top.  The only way to get a mechanical
	advantage is to use a SEPARATE block and tackle
	with a SECOND ROPE.  As I said before, this helps
	the puller but does nothing to reduce the load on the
	GIN Pole.   de  Tom  N4KG

>
> >
> > From: Mike Gilmer - N2MG <n2mg@contesting.com>
> > Date: 2001/06/13 Wed AM 09:06:35 EDT
> > To: towertalk@contesting.com
> > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
> >
> > Nothing "magical" about it...
> >


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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Wed Jun 13 19:39:03 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:39:03 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <78.162c1044.2858c272@aol.com> <3B2768F7.58F93203@berkshire.net> <3B277F0A.44025F50@dreamsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3B27B346.5E6F378A@easystreet.com>

NO, NO, NO . . . DON'T THINK ABOUT IT.   MEASURE IT YOURSELF AND YOU WILL SEE THAT JIM IS
EXACTLY RIGHT.

If you think I am shouting, you're right.  Being polite and subtle doesn't seem to work . .
.

Obviously, you are a non-believer who has NOT made the measuremnts . . .

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

Jim wrote:

> Dave,
>
> I'm not buying that.  It sounds logical at first but think about it.  To pull 300 lbs
> up, it takes 300 lbs of pull, and since the upper pulley arrangement is actually going
> to be located on the gin pole, guess what?  The 300 lbs of pull is going right into the
> gin pole.  Sorry if I'm not real clear but I know what I mean!  HiHi.
>
> 73
> Jim WB6YAW
>
> David Robbins wrote:
>
> > of course the lifting rope load remains the same, but the force required on the
> > pulling end decreases so the total load on the gin pole does get reduced.
> >
> > for example, with a standard gin pole lifting 300lbs at the top of the pole you
> > have a 300lb load plus 300lb of pull from the other side giving you a worst case
> > 600lb force on the gin pole (static load, some more is required to get things
> > moving, overcome friction, etc).
> >
> > with a 3:1 advantage pulley system you still have the 300lb load on one side,
> > but the rope pulling down on the other side is only adding 100lbs of force to
> > the pole, so the total is now 400lb.  which of course is a 1/3 reduction from
> > the 600lb you started with.... note the 3:1 and the 1/3 reduction is just how it
> > works out. with a 2:1 advantage you only reduce the total load from 600 to
> > 450lbs of a reduction of only 1/4 of the load... and taken to extreme, with an
> > infinite mechanical advantage you still have 300lbs of load so you only reduce
> > the total load on the pole by 1/2, the lowest you can get.
> >
> > another advantage of a pulley system like that is you can use a lighter weight
> > rope since each pass of it between the pulleys divides the load up.  so for a
> > 3:1 system with a 300lb load you only need a rope that can handle 100lb of
> > tension instead of 300lb... but of course you have to pull 3x more of it to lift
> > the same distance.
> >
> > K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > In a message dated 6/12/01 11:45:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > > w7ni@easystreet.com writes:
> > >
> > > >  A 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle system does, indeed, relieve
> > > >  about 1/3 of the load on the gin pole, in addition to reducing the number
> > > of
> > > > bodies required on  the pull rope.
> > >
> > >     You sure? Isn't a hundred-pound load going to weigh 100 pounds no matter
> > > how the block and tackle are set up? The load effort on the end of the rope
> > > will be reduced but the dead weight of the load stays the same. You still
> > > need a suitable ginpole.
> > >
> >
> > --
> > David Robbins K1TTT
> > e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
> > web: http://www.k1ttt.net
> > AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
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> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
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>
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>
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From wb0o@yahoo.com  Wed Jun 13 19:59:28 2001
From: wb0o@yahoo.com (BILL STRAW)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:59:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] Vertical top-loading questions
Message-ID: <20010613185928.68328.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>

A quick question:

I have an elevated 80M 4-square made of Rohn 25. There
is 15' of tower, then an insulator, then 50' of tower,
then a 20' whip made of aluminum tubing. Every winter
one or more of the whips break off (even using triple
wall tubing). This year 3 broke off. I have to do
something:

1) Extend each vertical with 1 or 2 more sections of
   tower. This costs $. I have the tower, but the
   Phillstran, and Grips X 4 towers adds up quick.
2) Take the whips off and top load each tower with a
   piece of wire strung to the top of another tower.
   Thus I would have 4 inverted-L's, but the top
   horizontal portion would be exactly horizontal.

Would #2 alter the gain or pattern much? I think it
would decrease the bandwith, but this antenna is used
mainly on CW.

Thanks for any opinions.
Bill, WB0O in North Dakota



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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Wed Jun 13 19:48:12 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:48:12 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <20010613.102849.-92533.1.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3B27B56B.2B1C6BF0@easystreet.com>

Another non-believer who obviously has not tried the experiment and made the
measurements.

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

n4kg@juno.com wrote:

> The pulley at the top of a gin pole merely changes
> the direction of the rope.  Please explain how a
> block and tackle "Magically" reduces the force on
> the rope to the top pulley and how to install the
> block and tackle to achieve this magical reduction.
>
> One more point.  One pulley can give a 2:1 mechanical
> advantage if one end of the rope is attached to a FIXED
> support.  If both ends of the rope are moving, there is
> NO mechanical advantage, only a direction change
> plus loss due to friction.
>
> de  Tom  N4KG
>
> On 13 Jun 2001  Mike Gilmer - N2MG <n2mg@contesting.com> writes:
> > Steve, you are "half" right.
> >
> > The lift effort is part of the overall load on the
> > ginpole (everyone forgets this), so without any
> > mechanical advantage there is 2X load weight applied
> > to the ginpole.  If you employ a 3:1 advantage, and
> > thereby reduce the lift force needed, you decrease the
> > overall force on the ginpole.
> >
> > 73 Mike N2MG
> >
> > On Wed, 13 June 2001, K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > In a message dated 6/12/01 11:45:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > > w7ni@easystreet.com writes:
> > >
> > > >  A 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle system does,
> > indeed, relieve
> > > >  about 1/3 of the load on the gin pole, in addition to reducing
> > the number
> > > of
> > > > bodies required on  the pull rope.
> > >
> > >     You sure? Isn't a hundred-pound load going to weigh 100 pounds
> > no matter
> > > how the block and tackle are set up? The load effort on the end of
> > the rope
> > > will be reduced but the dead weight of the load stays the same.
> > You still
> > > need a suitable ginpole.
> > >
> > > Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
> > > Tower Tech
> >
> > ________________________________________________
> > PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart.
> > http://www.peoplepc.com
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
> > Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers
> > - up to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> > HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
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> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________
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From Michael Tope" <W4EF@dellroy.com  Wed Jun 13 20:01:18 2001
From: Michael Tope" <W4EF@dellroy.com (Michael Tope)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:01:18 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <20010613.124617.-92533.5.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <00ea01c0f43b$3b173b80$6401a8c0@neptune>

Hi all, 

The gin pole feels a downward force equal to twice the attached load.
Thus the person pulling the rope has a 2:1 advantage in terms of his 
or her ability to push the tower down into the ground. His ability to lift the 
attached load however is 1:1. 

Mike, W4EF.........

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <n4kg@juno.com>
To: <TOWERTALK@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections


> More N4KG observations and comments inserted below.  
> 
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:18:30 -0400 "Guy Olinger, K2AV"
> <k2av@contesting.com> writes:
> > The reduction mechanism of a ganged pulley system is in the number of 
> > feet of rope the worker pulls in as a ratio to the distance the load 
> > travels. In a two to one system the worker pulls 200 feet of rope to 
> > lift the object 100 feet, thus the analog to a lever, and the 
> > advantage.
> 
> The distance traveled is a RESULT of the mechanical
> advantage, NOT the CAUSE, but can be used to calculate
> the mechanical advantage.   N4KG
>  
> > Two to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block, 
> > through pulley at top block, to worker. 
> > 
> > Three to one: rope tied at bottom block, through pulley at top 
> > block, through pulley at bottom block, through pulley at top block, 
> > to worker.
> > 
> > Four to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block, 
> > through pulley at top block, through pulley at bottom block, through 
> > pulley at top block, to worker.
> > 
> > 73
> 
> Note the presense of MULTIPLE pulleys at the top
> of the block and tackle.  A  GIN pole has only ONE
> pulley at the top.  The only way to get a mechanical
> advantage is to use a SEPARATE block and tackle
> with a SECOND ROPE.  As I said before, this helps
> the puller but does nothing to reduce the load on the
> GIN Pole.   de  Tom  N4KG
> 
> > 
> > > 
> > > From: Mike Gilmer - N2MG <n2mg@contesting.com>
> > > Date: 2001/06/13 Wed AM 09:06:35 EDT
> > > To: towertalk@contesting.com
> > > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
> > > 
> > > Nothing "magical" about it...
> > > 
>  
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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> 
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From k2av@contesting.com  Wed Jun 13 20:06:11 2001
From: k2av@contesting.com (Guy Olinger, K2AV)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:06:11 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010613190700.UGMH8816.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@mail.bna.bellsouth.net>


> 
> From: "Brown, James E LRDOR" <James.E.Brown@lrdor.usace.army.mil>
> Date: 2001/06/13 Wed AM 11:50:37 EDT
> To: "'towertalk@contesting.com'" <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
> 
> And what if there are no workers applying "downforce", but instead the end
> of the line is tied off to a tree, and the load is suspended static?  
> 
> Jim   W4LC
> 

If you put a tension guage on the tie off line, you would find that the tension is essentially equal to the load divided by whatever advantage exists in the tackle system. (To be accurate into multiple decimal places you would have to figure the weight of rope, hook, and bottom block.)

If you're standing still holding the line, you are equivalent to a heavy object as a tie off. Tree just a heavy object with roots.



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From ag0n@arrl.net  Wed Jun 13 20:10:29 2001
From: ag0n@arrl.net (Gary McDuffie, Sr.)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:10:29 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
In-Reply-To: <49B1F0812748D211A39100805F9FA681012CE5FC@lrdormail01.lrd.usace.army.mil>
References: <49B1F0812748D211A39100805F9FA681012CE5FC@lrdormail01.lrd.usace.army.mil>
Message-ID: <1eefit83dbpm8s8h6kmo5776t3en84ficu@4ax.com>

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:50:37 -0700, Brown, James E LRDOR wrote:

> And what if there are no workers applying "downforce", but instead the end
> of the line is tied off to a tree, and the load is suspended static?  

The down force is subtracted from the weight of the tree and still
applied as down force to hold the load.  The down force of the tree to
the ground decreases by the same amount that is transferred to the
suspended load.  ;o)

Now...  Since you probably didn't have a tree right at the base of the
tower, you are running the rope at an angle and you'll have to vector in
the angular pull, etc.   ;o}

Gary

ag0n at arrl dot net
http://mcduffie.ws
-- 

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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Wed Jun 13 19:58:01 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:58:01 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <20010613.110314.-92533.2.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3B27B7B8.429B88D8@easystreet.com>

n4kg@juno.com wrote:

>         How is this 2:1 mechanical advantage achieved?
>
>         Scenario 1 -  End of rope is attached to the frame
>         of the top pulley.  Rope runs down to Second pulley
>         with hook at load.  Rope then runs up and through
>         the TOP pulley.  Force in each vertical run of the
>         rope is 150 lbs.  450 lbs on top hook as proposed.
>
>         This is NOT how a gin pole is configured.

Well, if I wanted a 2:1 mechanical advantage on my gin pole and the reduction in gin
pole load it provides, this is EXACTLY how I would configure my gin pole.

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com


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From k1ttt@berkshire.net  Wed Jun 13 19:20:03 2001
From: k1ttt@berkshire.net (David Robbins)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:20:03 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <49B1F0812748D211A39100805F9FA681012CE5FC@lrdormail01.lrd.usace.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3B27AED3.B4C4BBBA@berkshire.net>

"Brown, James E LRDOR" wrote:
> 
> And what if there are no workers applying "downforce", but instead the end
> of the line is tied off to a tree, and the load is suspended static?
> 
> Jim   W4LC
> 

its the same as if someone was holding it, you still have that downward force
exerted to keep the load where it was.  one basic misconception is that a force
being applied doesn't mean that anything is moving.  when all the forces exactly
balance everything stands still, which is what i have been calculating in all
these cases.  to get a load to start moving upwards you have to exert MORE than
the force required to hold it still... note this means that in the basic gin
pole arrangement with just the single pulley at the top the MINIMUM downward
force it has to be able to support is double the weight of the load.  it will
always take more force to get the load started depending on how good the bearing
is and how quickly you pull to get it moving (overcoming the inertia)... add in
extra forces caused by the normal jerking on the end of the stretchy ropes we
mostly use and it can be lots more than the weight of the load.

one interesting case is what happens if you have a ratchet in the system
attached to the pole itself or at the top pulley.  i have a small block and
tackle system that has this type of arrangement.  in this case when you let go
of the rope the ratchet at the top pulley grabs it and prevents the load from
falling.  now if you figure this in, when you let go of the lifting rope you
were pulling down on and the ratchet grabs it the load on the pole actually
drops to be just the weight being lifted.  this makes sense because the extra
force downward you were applying is now gone so all the top attachment point is
doing is holding the load up in the air by itself... but what replaced your
downward force???? friction.  if you were to measure the forces inside the
ratchet you would see the same force you were exerting is now being applied by
the ratchet mechanism, but since this is not pulling down there is only the dead
weight of the load seen on the top attachment point.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Finch [mailto:paulfinch@msn.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 2:24 PM
> To: Tower Talk; n4kg@juno.com
> Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
> 
> Hello,
> 
> So the weight exhibited to the Gin pole at the top pulley mount point is the
> down force of the load line plus down force it takes to hold the load static
> at the workers end of the load line?  No matter how many times the
> advantage.  Right?
> 

right.  and the down force required by the workers is the weight/mechanical
advatage.  so the general formula would be    
weight*(1+1/mechanical_advantage)     for the downward force on the pole.

-- 
David Robbins K1TTT
e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
web: http://www.k1ttt.net
AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net

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From k1vr@juno.com  Wed Jun 13 20:32:16 2001
From: k1vr@juno.com (Fred Hopengarten)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:32:16 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Vertical top-loading questions
Message-ID: <20010613.153241.-312599.15.k1vr@juno.com>

You have expressed your options as:

1. More tower sections, and
2. Inverted L wires at the top.

Here are more options:

3. Instead of 20 feet of aluminum above the tower, try 11 feet of tubing
made of descending sizes, and top it off with a 9 foot stainless steel
mobile whip (thin -- so as not to be capturing a lot of wind, and very
flexible).

4. Instead of inverted L's, a top hat made of three or four wires, each
of which would be shorter than the inverted L wire.

5. A combination: A three wire top hat and a 9 foot stainless steel
mobile whip. In fact, that's how W1CF and W1FC designed and built their
verticals, which stood up very well in New England (we have winter here
too).

Fred Hopengarten K1VR                        
hopengarten@post.harvard.edu
Six Willarch Road * Lincoln, MA 01773-5105
781/259-0088 *eFax 419/858-2421
________________________________________________________________
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From mike@kb0ozn.com  Wed Jun 13 20:59:58 2001
From: mike@kb0ozn.com (MikeB)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:59:58 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] RG17 coax
Message-ID: <3B27C63E.779BC535@kb0ozn.com>

Thanks for all the answers on the coax.  I should have thought of simply
rg-17, I have never seen or used any coax bigger than 9913 besides
heliax.  The specs on it look to be no better than 9913 just higher
power which is of no use to me.  I guess it is another freebe for the
next ham fest or something.


Mike
KB0OZN

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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Wed Jun 13 20:58:55 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:58:55 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <49B1F0812748D211A39100805F9FA681012CE5FC@lrdormail01.lrd.usace.army.mil> <1eefit83dbpm8s8h6kmo5776t3en84ficu@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3B27C5FF.93EAF4FD@gloryroad.net>

Guys,

There is a very simple way to figure the mechanical advantage without
any understanding for forces et al.

With the rope/pully arrangement in place:

1) Move the rope you pull on, say 5 feet.
2) Measure how much you elevated the object being raised ,say it turns
out to be 1' .

The theoretical mechanical advantage is the ratio of the number of
feet in 1 to that in 2.  In this case the mechanical advantage is
5'/1' =5.  

In terms of physics work = force x distance.

In a frictionless system, the work you must exert to raise an object
up the tower will be the same regardless of the mechanical advantage. 
(aka "you don't get something for nothing" or "there ain't no free
lunch")

You reduce the force you exert by the mechanical advantage.  To
perform the same work of raising the object you must increase the
amount of rope you pull by the mechanical advantage factor.  Add
friction, the force you have to apply increases, the amount of rope
you have to pull doesn't change. The extra work goes to frictional
heating of the system.    

The actual mechanical advantage in a rope/pully system is (20-50%)
less due to friction.

Now look at the gin pole system.  You pull on the rope 1', the tower
section goes up 1'.  The theoretical mechanical advantage is 1. 

73 de Brian/K3KO




"Gary McDuffie, Sr." wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:50:37 -0700, Brown, James E LRDOR wrote:
> 
> > And what if there are no workers applying "downforce", but instead the end
> > of the line is tied off to a tree, and the load is suspended static?
> 
> The down force is subtracted from the weight of the tree and still
> applied as down force to hold the load.  The down force of the tree to
> the ground decreases by the same amount that is transferred to the
> suspended load.  ;o)
> 
> Now...  Since you probably didn't have a tree right at the base of the
> tower, you are running the rope at an angle and you'll have to vector in
> the angular pull, etc.   ;o}
> 
> Gary
> 
> ag0n at arrl dot net
> http://mcduffie.ws
> --
> 
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From JBaumgarte@aol.com  Wed Jun 13 21:02:28 2001
From: JBaumgarte@aol.com (JBaumgarte@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:02:28 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <cc.16573176.285920d4@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/13/01 8:20:39 AM Central Daylight Time, K7LXC@aol.com 
writes:

<<    You sure? Isn't a hundred-pound load going to weigh 100 pounds no 
matter 
 how the block and tackle are set up? The load effort on the end of the rope 
 will be reduced but the dead weight of the load stays the same. You still 
 need a suitable ginpole. 
 
 Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC >>


Good grief!  Steve, as usual, is correct.  It matters not whether you have a 
4:1 or 8:1 block and tackle set up for lifting--the load on the gin-pole is 
the same (actually plus the weight of all that rope).  

I do the opposite when lifting Rohn 55 sections. I go for mechanical 
DISADVANTAGE, and speed ADVANTAGE.  I use a CJ5 to pull with a movable pulley 
attached to the monster hook on the front of the Jeep.  This requires the 
Jeep to back away from the tower only half the distance of the lift and 
surely the Jeep doesn't flinch at 250# of pull compared to the normal 125#.  
Went to this because I only had 60' of clear backing room and needed to lift 
110'.  With good sailboat type pulleys (a turning one at the bottom of the 
tower and the movable one on the Jeep) and strong rope there is no problem.  
The load on the gin-pole is still the same but the one spot with double load 
is the movable pulley on the Jeep.

John, N0IJ

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From k1ttt@berkshire.net  Wed Jun 13 20:19:03 2001
From: k1ttt@berkshire.net (David Robbins)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 20:19:03 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <cc.16573176.285920d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B27BCA7.CD832067@berkshire.net>



JBaumgarte@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 6/13/01 8:20:39 AM Central Daylight Time, K7LXC@aol.com
> writes:
> 
> <<    You sure? Isn't a hundred-pound load going to weigh 100 pounds no
> matter
>  how the block and tackle are set up? The load effort on the end of the rope
>  will be reduced but the dead weight of the load stays the same. You still
>  need a suitable ginpole.
> 
>  Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC >>
> 
> Good grief!  Steve, as usual, is correct.  It matters not whether you have a
> 4:1 or 8:1 block and tackle set up for lifting--the load on the gin-pole is
> the same (actually plus the weight of all that rope).


WRONG!  the higher the mechanical advantage of the block and tackle the lower
the load on what is holding it up(diregarding the weight of the tackle itself). 
i'm sorry if you just don't get it, i've explained it as many different ways as
i can.  maybe you should go see a mechanics professor at a local college or
something and figure out how to balance the forces on the pole.

but what you really have to understand for the basic ham case with only a single
pulley at the top of the gin pole is that the pole has to be able to hold more
than twice the dead load you are lifting.


-- 
David Robbins K1TTT
e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
web: http://www.k1ttt.net
AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net

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From n3ue@arrl.net  Wed Jun 13 21:27:09 2001
From: n3ue@arrl.net (Ed Wolf)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:27:09 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
In-Reply-To: <3B27BCA7.CD832067@berkshire.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJILFGLMCOLGHAFODCEKCCFAA.n3ue@arrl.net>


My turn...

Let me see if I now, after the past few days, understand.
If I use a block and tackle with a 5:1 mechanical advantage
attached to a beam in my garage to lift a 500 pound load,
the 500 pound load will only weigh 100 pounds at the point
of attachment on the beam? I like that idea! Seeing as how
the beam in my garage will only support 125 pounds I can
do just that according to all that I have read!

Ed Wolf - ars:N3UE - NA40+TR.PA
http://members.home.net/wolfie132/
http://www.breezeshooters.net
http://www.breezeshooters.com


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of David Robbins
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 3:19 PM
To: reflector -tower
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections

>
WRONG!  the higher the mechanical advantage of the block and tackle the
lower
the load on what is holding it up(diregarding the weight of the tackle
itself).
i'm sorry if you just don't get it, i've explained it as many different ways
as
i can.  maybe you should go see a mechanics professor at a local college or
something and figure out how to balance the forces on the pole.

but what you really have to understand for the basic ham case with only a
single
pulley at the top of the gin pole is that the pole has to be able to hold
more
than twice the dead load you are lifting.


--
David Robbins K1TTT
e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
web: http://www.k1ttt.net
AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net

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From nielsen@oz.net  Wed Jun 13 21:31:13 2001
From: nielsen@oz.net (Bob Nielsen)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:31:13 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.1010613090826.9392D-100000@gonzo.wolfenet.com>
Message-ID: <20010613133113.B3240@oz.net>

On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 09:10:48AM -0700, Ward Silver wrote:
> > > If both ends of the rope are moving, there is 
> > > NO mechanical advantage, only a direction change
> > > plus loss due to friction.
> > > 
> > > de  Tom  N4KG
> 
> Correct you are!  The minute Lightweight Larry begins his fateful upwards
> journey, the whole equation changes.  Any downwards tension beyond his
> weight disappears in that situation.
> 
> "And then, while I was laying there looking up at the bottom of the
> barrel, I let go of the rope..."

Thanks for remembering that classic, Ward.  I have a copy of it around
somewhere, but won't show it to my XYL until AFTER I get a tower and
antenna installed!

If we start including friction, then we also have to add the mass of
the block and tackle, pulley inertia, etc.  I'll have to dig out my
graduate-level physics texts--NOT!

Bob, N7XY

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From kb0pyo@rconnect.com  Wed Jun 13 21:34:12 2001
From: kb0pyo@rconnect.com (Mark Brown)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:34:12 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <NEBBJILFGLMCOLGHAFODCEKCCFAA.n3ue@arrl.net>
Message-ID: <3B27CE44.CBB08DAE@rconnect.com>

when lifting a dead load with a single pulley you would have
the 500lbs of weight plus 500 pounds of downforce for a
total of 1000 lbs. With a 5:1 advantage you now have 500 lbs
of dead weight plus 100 lbs of downforce for a total of 600
lbs.


Ed Wolf wrote:
> 
> My turn...
> 
> Let me see if I now, after the past few days, understand.
> If I use a block and tackle with a 5:1 mechanical advantage
> attached to a beam in my garage to lift a 500 pound load,
> the 500 pound load will only weigh 100 pounds at the point
> of attachment on the beam? I like that idea! Seeing as how
> the beam in my garage will only support 125 pounds I can
> do just that according to all that I have read!
> 
> Ed Wolf - ars:N3UE - NA40+TR.PA
> http://members.home.net/wolfie132/
> http://www.breezeshooters.net
> http://www.breezeshooters.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of David Robbins
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 3:19 PM
> To: reflector -tower
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
> 
> >
> WRONG!  the higher the mechanical advantage of the block and tackle the
> lower
> the load on what is holding it up(diregarding the weight of the tackle
> itself).
> i'm sorry if you just don't get it, i've explained it as many different ways
> as
> i can.  maybe you should go see a mechanics professor at a local college or
> something and figure out how to balance the forces on the pole.
> 
> but what you really have to understand for the basic ham case with only a
> single
> pulley at the top of the gin pole is that the pole has to be able to hold
> more
> than twice the dead load you are lifting.
> 
> --
> David Robbins K1TTT
> e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
> web: http://www.k1ttt.net
> AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
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-- 
en24gp 6m through 1296, BBQ rules, icq 41823284

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From n2mg@contesting.com  Wed Jun 13 21:38:34 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 13 Jun 2001 13:38:34 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010613203834.23645.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>

On Wed, 13 June 2001, "Ed Wolf" wrote:

> If I use a block and tackle with a 5:1 mechanical 
> advantage attached to a beam in my garage to lift a 
> 500 pound load, the 500 pound load will only weigh 
> 100 pounds at the point of attachment on the beam? 

Nope.  It "weighs" only 100# at your end (the end you pull on).  The beam still has to support the entire weight of the load, plus the pull force.

73 Mike N2MG

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From n4kg@juno.com  Wed Jun 13 22:18:58 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:18:58 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010613.151919.-237865.1.N4KG@juno.com>

I agree with this scenario which is an example of my
statement that the mechanical advantage equals the
number of segments between the support and the load.

A gin pole for heavy loads can be configured by using
a block and tackle BETWEEN the SUPPORT and the LOAD
where there are MULTIPLE pulleys and one end of the rope
is connected to one of the blocks.

For the standard Rohn Gin pole this is NOT how it works
and the argument proposed by some here that a mechanical
advantage between the puller and a standard single pulley
on the gin pole provides a load readuction for the gin pole is 
FALSE.

My arguments ASSUMED a typical Rohn Gin Pole with
a single pulley at the top.  Yes, a multi-pulley system
can be configured to provide a mechanical advantage.
We really must keep our apples and oranges separate :-)
Sorry if there was some confusion between these two
different types of pulley arrangements.

Tom  N4KG

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001  David Robbins <k1ttt@berkshire.net> writes:
> i have not had a need to do it, but a 2:1 arrangement would also be 
> easy to do. 
> all you need to do is tie one end of the rope to the top of the 
> pole, run
> through a single moving pulley where you attach the load, then go 
> through the
> normal gin pole pulley and back to the ground.  of course it takes 
> 50% more rope
> than just going up and over the gin pole pulley.  why not DOUBLE the 
> rope you
> may say??? well, think about it... in the normal setup you go up the 
> tower and
> back down to the load.  with a 2:1 setup like this you go up the 
> tower, down to
> the moving pulley, and then back up to the top... so you only have 
> one extra
> length going up the tower... each increment in mechanical advantage 
> adds one
> more length equal to the max lift height to the length of rope 
> needed.  so a 3:1
> advantage only needs 2x the rope as the 1:1 normal use of the gin 
> pole.
> 
> "Guy Olinger, K2AV" wrote:
> > 
> > See other post on how advantage achieved.
> > 
> > >       This is NOT how a gin pole is configured.
> > 
> > A gin pole is just a device to give an attachment opportunity high 
> enough above already 
> >accomplished structure to allow fixing various lifting devices to 
> control both vertical and 
> >horizontal forces on the next section for easy attachment. It 
> doesn't imply any particular lifting 
> >arrangement, though some may be manufactured with a particular 
> device integral.
> > 
> > Other than a single pulley, the top hook of a 4:1 block and tackle 
> setup is another device that can 
> >be attached to the top of a gin pole. I've seen an electric winch 
> fitted to a gin pole.
> 
> 
> -- 
> David Robbins K1TTT
> e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
> web: http://www.k1ttt.net
> AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net

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From k4sqr@juno.com  Wed Jun 13 21:46:09 2001
From: k4sqr@juno.com (k4sqr@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:46:09 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Vertical top-loading questions
Message-ID: <20010613.165001.-96972445.3.K4SQR@juno.com>

Hi Bill;

If  your're using 1/4w 75 ohm lines to the towers from your coupler, try
three top-loading wires, each at 20 feet initially on each tower, to
retain your 75 ohm lines.

If this is not satisfactory, then the "L" configuration, with all wires
pointed towards the center, will  work well. However, Inverted L's
exhibit a lower impedence vs series fed 1/4w verticals, and you will have
to install fifty (50) ohm 1/4 w lines. K1ZM experienced this with his
160M 4-Square in New England several years ago, and is described in his
book, DXing on the Edge, published by ARRL.

Good luck, and I guess we will have to wait a winter to see what option
is best suited for your QTH!

73,

Jim Miller, K4SQR
http://www.comteksystems.com
4-Square Experts, Stack Yagi
& Remote Antenna Switching Systems

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:59:28 -0700 (PDT) BILL STRAW <wb0o@yahoo.com>
writes:
> A quick question:
> 
> I have an elevated 80M 4-square made of Rohn 25. There
> is 15' of tower, then an insulator, then 50' of tower,
> then a 20' whip made of aluminum tubing. Every winter
> one or more of the whips break off (even using triple
> wall tubing). This year 3 broke off. I have to do
> something:
> 
> 1) Extend each vertical with 1 or 2 more sections of
>    tower. This costs $. I have the tower, but the
>    Phillstran, and Grips X 4 towers adds up quick.
> 2) Take the whips off and top load each tower with a
>    piece of wire strung to the top of another tower.
>    Thus I would have 4 inverted-L's, but the top
>    horizontal portion would be exactly horizontal.
> 
> Would #2 alter the gain or pattern much? I think it
> would decrease the bandwith, but this antenna is used
> mainly on CW.
> 
> Thanks for any opinions.
> Bill, WB0O in North Dakota
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> 

Jim Miller, K4SQR
http://www.comteksystems.com
4-Square Experts, Stack Yagi
& Remote Antenna Switching Systems

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From jirka@jimaz.cz  Wed Jun 13 22:23:20 2001
From: jirka@jimaz.cz (Jiri Sanda)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:23:20 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] Vertical top-loading questions
In-Reply-To: <20010613185928.68328.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBKAIBCJDDIHOEIBGDAEADEFAA.jirka@jimaz.cz>

Hello,

read very nice article from L.B.Cebik at his www.cebik.com

Name of the proper article is if I remember well "where is my hat or
similar.

73 !

Jiri

OK1RI

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of BILL STRAW
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 8:59 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Vertical top-loading questions


A quick question:

I have an elevated 80M 4-square made of Rohn 25. There
is 15' of tower, then an insulator, then 50' of tower,
then a 20' whip made of aluminum tubing. Every winter
one or more of the whips break off (even using triple
wall tubing). This year 3 broke off. I have to do
something:

1) Extend each vertical with 1 or 2 more sections of
   tower. This costs $. I have the tower, but the
   Phillstran, and Grips X 4 towers adds up quick.
2) Take the whips off and top load each tower with a
   piece of wire strung to the top of another tower.
   Thus I would have 4 inverted-L's, but the top
   horizontal portion would be exactly horizontal.

Would #2 alter the gain or pattern much? I think it
would decrease the bandwith, but this antenna is used
mainly on CW.

Thanks for any opinions.
Bill, WB0O in North Dakota



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From nielsen@oz.net  Wed Jun 13 22:36:41 2001
From: nielsen@oz.net (Bob Nielsen)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:36:41 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] DB-304 Antennas and 3 degrees down tilt
In-Reply-To: <CHEAIHGJHDFPBLKFBDLIAEGGCEAA.paulfinch@msn.com>
Message-ID: <20010613143641.C3240@oz.net>

On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 01:44:05PM -0500, Paul Finch wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> A Ham friend and I have a couple of tall towers that we are getting
> complaints of getting into the repeaters while fairly close to the tower.
> Both of these towers use receive multicoupler systems off the top of the
> tower and transmit combiners off lower antennas.  We both run Ham repeaters.
> We both have commercial systems on these towers to support our toys (500
> foot towers).
> 
> Has anyone out there played with the Decibel Products DB-304 antenna phasing
> harness to achieve 3 degrees of down tilt at the 3 dB half power point?  I
> have talked to one of the design engineers that originally designed the 304
> antenna around 30 years ago.  He did some initial testing on down tilting
> this antenna but can't remember the cable lengths to accomplish 3 degrees of
> down tilt.  Unfortunately, he no longer works for DB and DB will not make
> the harnesses.  Is there an antenna simulator out there that would help?

Paul,

The half-power beamwidth of a DB-304 is 16 degrees according to the
data sheet.  If I understand you correctly, this means you wish to
achieve (16/2) + 3 = 11 degrees of downtilt.  The data sheet gives the
overall length as 260 in. but does not say what the vertical spacing
is between dipoles.

To achieve 11 degrees of downtilt, you need to successively retard the
phase of each dipole below the top dipole by

(vertical spacing in wavelengths) X tan (11 deg)

Assuming that this spacing is 72 in (I'm guessing from a photograph),
and further assuming a frequency of 150 MHz, this would be 0.915
wavelengths X 0.1944 = 0.1779 wavelength.  For a coaxial cable with
polyethylene dielectric, Vp = 0.659, so you would need to increase the
length of the feed line to the second dipole from the top by 9.22 in.,
the length to the third by 18.45 inches and the length to the bottom
dipole by 27.67 in.  

This should give you enough of an idea to adjust for the actual
frequency, dielectrric and element spacing.  I'm assuming that the feed
uses simple power dividers, not having actually seen one of these
antennas.

I haven't done this calculation for about 20 years, so someone please
check my math (I did catch myself a few times!)

73, 

Bob, N7XY

-- 
Bob Nielsen, N7XY                          nielsen@oz.net
Bainbridge Island, WA                      http://www.oz.net/~nielsen
IOTA NA-065, USI WA-028S 

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From k6ll@juno.com  Thu Jun 14 17:11:12 2001
From: k6ll@juno.com (Dave Hachadorian)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:11:12 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010614.161113.-16646967.1.K6LL@juno.com>

As nicely stated by N2MG, the gin pole "has to support the entire
weight of the load, plus the pull force."

For a standard gin pole, with only one pulley at the top,
lifting a 300 pound load, the gin pole must support
600 pounds.

The more pulleys you add to reduce the pull force, the less
load on the gin pole, but it can obviously never be less
than the weight of the load.

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ
K6LL@juno.com

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From asfco@nycap.rr.com  Thu Jun 14 00:37:18 2001
From: asfco@nycap.rr.com (asfco)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:37:18 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Where to find pulley wheels
Message-ID: <3B27F92E.94A76188@nycap.rr.com>

it may not be as easy as I previously stated but ,stay tuned...I like
challenges like this and when I find where they can be had I will post
the information etc...
Rgds
Steve    W2GB


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From jayt@arraysolutions.com  Thu Jun 14 00:49:40 2001
From: jayt@arraysolutions.com (JayTerleski)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:49:40 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Vertical top-loading questions
References: <20010613185928.68328.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3B27FC14.C88A73B9@home.com>

Hi guys and
Bill,
You didn't say how the transition was made from the tower section to the
whip.

Back in the 30s it was proven that you want a gradual taper from any
broadcast vertical to a whip. Having a sharp transition is not a good
thing to do, you actually have much less current in the whip as a result
of the sharp transition.  In other words if your not using a tapered top
section and the connection to the whip is say from a top plate to a 2
inch whip. You probably have a poor radiator on your hands right now.  
So you may actual benefit by going to a good top hat.  

A good top hat would be 4 AL tubes spoked out from the top plate with a
wire around the ends.

I would have to model the antenna to tell you how long the tubes would
need to be but my feeling is around 10 feet.

So in actuality you may find the top hat vertical will be a better
performing radiator then the whip if the whip is built as I state above.
And you will avoid the coupling and phase issues of having inverted L
wires on your 4 square system.  A good top hat design is preferable to
an Inverted L wire for the same reasons of the sharp transition issue
above.

For those who want to dig into the physics, there are numerous articles
in the literature. Probably one of the best is by G.H. Brown," A
critical study of characteristics of broadcast antennas as affected by
antenna current distribution". IRE Proceedings, Jan 1936. But Jasik and
Johnson, as well as any good radio engineering book should also have
reference to this work.

I think Ken K6HPX, who monitors this reflector can state several other
sources of good data.

Jay, WX0B



BILL STRAW wrote:
> 
> A quick question:
> 
> I have an elevated 80M 4-square made of Rohn 25. There
> is 15' of tower, then an insulator, then 50' of tower,
> then a 20' whip made of aluminum tubing. Every winter
> one or more of the whips break off (even using triple
> wall tubing). This year 3 broke off. I have to do
> something:
> 
> 1) Extend each vertical with 1 or 2 more sections of
>    tower. This costs $. I have the tower, but the
>    Phillstran, and Grips X 4 towers adds up quick.
> 2) Take the whips off and top load each tower with a
>    piece of wire strung to the top of another tower.
>    Thus I would have 4 inverted-L's, but the top
>    horizontal portion would be exactly horizontal.
> 
> Would #2 alter the gain or pattern much? I think it
> would decrease the bandwith, but this antenna is used
> mainly on CW.
> 
> Thanks for any opinions.
> Bill, WB0O in North Dakota
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> 
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> 
> -----
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-- 
Jay Terleski
Array Solutions - RME Filters
Phased Arrays - Horizontal and Vertical
RF Switches, Antennas & Towers
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From w5kp@swbell.net  Thu Jun 14 01:51:02 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:51:02 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Father's Day gift ideas
References: <3B279C2E.3D317ADA@bsuvc.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <00a101c0f46c$16e007c0$1721c1cf@jkdesktop>

How about a Klein "Haven" type wire grip (as opposed to the Klein "Chicago"
grip, which has more moving parts), takes 1/8" to 1/2" wire, about $58 at
your local Klein dealer. Just bought one, a very nicely made little tool. I
may get a couple more so I can work three guys at once for temporaries, but
then of course I have to get two more comealongs, too. Dang. Pasting money
onto the hole in the sky again...  :-)
73, Jerry W5KP

>
> OK, now I need something to tell my wife to get for me.  Any ideas?
>
> Terry Zivney, N4TZ/9
>



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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Wed Jun 13 20:37:34 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:37:34 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <20010613.121844.-92533.3.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3B27C0FE.BA316A66@easystreet.com>

Well, Tom . . . you are STILL a nonbeliever and you STILL have not tried the experiment
and you STILL have not made the measurements, obviously.  And you are STILL very WRONG
about this concept.  Its OK with me for you to be wrong about it if you want to, but
please quit leading others down that path . . .

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

n4kg@juno.com wrote:

> I agree completely with your analysis Guy.  Which end of the
> gin pole rope is attached to a "block" ?  q.e.d.
>
> Bottom Line:  The mechanical advantage in a lossless system
> equals the number of supporting segments between the LOAD
> and the SUPPORT.
>
> For a GIN POLE this number is ONE i.e. NO mechanical advantage.
>
> Sum of Forces approach:  Load on one side of the gin pole pulley
> must be balanced by the "pull" on the opposite side.  The Gin pole
> supports the LOAD plus PULL, or twice the weight of the load.
>
> Rope In = Rope Out approach:  The amount of rope going into
> the gin pole pulley equals the amount of rope coming out of the
> gin pole pulley.  Mechanical advantage = ONE.
>
> The gin pole rope MAY be attached to the HOOK of a Block
> and Tackle which will provide a mechanical advantage to the
> puller but NOT to the gin pole.  The other end of the block
> and tackle is presumably anchored to the ground.  Two ropes
> are involved here.  The block and tackle rope will travel X times
> the distance of the load where X is the mechanical advantage.
> The gin pole rope will travel the same distance as the load,
> i.e., the height of the tower.
>
> Time for a new thread.
>
> de  Tom  N4KG
>
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2001  "Guy Olinger, K2AV" <k2av@contesting.com> writes:
>
> > The reduction mechanism of a ganged pulley system is in the number of
> > feet of rope the worker pulls in as a ratio to the distance the load
> > travels. In a two to one system the worker pulls 200 feet of rope to
> > lift the object 100 feet, thus the analog to a lever, and the
> > advantage.
> >
> > Two to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block,
> > through pulley at top block, to worker.
> >
> > Three to one: rope tied at bottom block, through pulley at top
> > block, through pulley at bottom block, through pulley at top block,
> > to worker.
> >
> > Four to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block,
> > through pulley at top block, through pulley at bottom block, through
> > pulley at top block, to worker.
> >
> > 73
> >
> > >
> > > From: Mike Gilmer - N2MG <n2mg@contesting.com>
> > > Date: 2001/06/13 Wed AM 09:06:35 EDT
> > > To: towertalk@contesting.com
> > > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
> > >
> > > Nothing "magical" about it...
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________
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>
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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Thu Jun 14 01:40:03 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:40:03 -0700
Subject: [Fwd: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections]
Message-ID: <3B2807E3.BD8AE02F@easystreet.com>

I thought I had sent this message to the reflector but apparently not . . .

Stan or Patricia Griffiths wrote:

> Yes, I am ABSOLUTELY sure.  Like I said, I set up a demonstration to prove it,
> showed it at a Willamette Valley DX Club meeting with the help of W7RR and
> convinced each and everyone present that it works exactly as described.
>
> What I did was set up a 6 foot vertical mast made of 1 inch diameter aluminum
> tubing.  Next, I rigged it with a small single pully at the top and with a
> spring scales inserted between the pully and the top of the mast showing the
> downward force on the pully which is the same as the load on the mast.  Next, I
> installed a known weight of 15 pounds (measured by the same spring scale earlier
> in the demonstration) on the load rope.  Next, I took up slack on the "pull"
> rope and when the weight lifted off the floor, W7RR read the scale.  It said 30
> pounds.  Why 30 pounds and not 15 pounds?  Because there are TWO ropes pulling
> down on the pully, one attached to the load and the other one attached to the
> hands of the person raising the load.  Both of these ropes (technically, it is
> only one rope but it has the same effect as if it were two separate ropes, each
> attached to the pully, in terms of applying load to the pully and mast) have 15
> pounds of tension each and pulling in the same direction (down) and all of that
> load (15 pounds EACH) is supported by the mast and pully.
>
> What I did then was make a small block and tackle with a 3:1 advantage and put
> it in place of the single pully.  I again raised the load off the floor and W7RR
> read the scale in series with the pully.  I now read 20 pounds instead of 30
> pounds or 2/3 of the first number.  Now there are 3 strands of rope holding the
> weight (15 pounds) so the tension in the rope is 5 pounds instead of 15 pounds
> and the tension in the pull rope is also 5 pounds, since it is the same
> continuous rope.  So now there is effectively FOUR ropes pulling down on the
> pully (and mast) but each one only has a tension of 5 pounds each (total 20
> pounds) instead of TWO ropes with a tension of 15 pounds each (total 30 pounds).
>
> This REALLY works.  If you STILL don't believe it, you can always rig this at
> home and TRY it yourself.  It is not rocket science.  Also, it is not
> intuitively obvious that it works which is why there are so many non-believers.
> You certainly can't deny that it is a VERY IMPORTANT concept and reducing the
> load on the gin pole by 33% could save your neck when you are lifting that 250
> pound long steel mast . . . isn't it worth checking it out?
>
> I have actually thought about making my demo kit available as a traveling
> program but there is nothing in it you can't get at the local hardware store for
> a couple of bucks.
>
> You know, when we hashed this out last time here on towertalk, I went away with
> the ugly feeling there were still a lot of non-believers out there and I had
> failed miserably to get this VERY IMPORTANT point across.  I hope I made it this
> time.  The bottom line is that you can try it yourself . . . so I don't want to
> hear from any nonbelievers who have not actually rigged this up and made the
> measurements themselves . . .  this means I should not get ANY nonbeliever email
> on this since, as soon as you try it, you will become a believer . . . becauses
> it is absolutely TRUE.
>
> Stan
> w7ni@easystreet.com
>
> K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 6/12/01 11:45:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > w7ni@easystreet.com writes:
> >
> > >  A 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle system does, indeed, relieve
> > >  about 1/3 of the load on the gin pole, in addition to reducing the number
> > of
> > > bodies required on  the pull rope.
> >
> >     You sure? Isn't a hundred-pound load going to weigh 100 pounds no matter
> > how the block and tackle are set up? The load effort on the end of the rope
> > will be reduced but the dead weight of the load stays the same. You still
> > need a suitable ginpole.
> >
> > Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
> > Tower Tech



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From k4ja@crosslink.net  Thu Jun 14 01:55:49 2001
From: k4ja@crosslink.net (Paul K4JA)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:55:49 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] guy anchors
References: <20010613181744.GDVE2093.mtiwmhc28.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <001401c0f46c$ccb604a0$0901a8c0@Paul>

I just had Walder Co install 12 for a new 160M 4 square.  This link
will give you all the info you need.



http://www.abchance.com/info.html#field

GL K4JA


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From w5kp@swbell.net  Thu Jun 14 02:12:26 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 20:12:26 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tensioning guys
Message-ID: <000701c0f46f$13bbdd00$1721c1cf@jkdesktop>

I understand the methodology of the Klein grips and comealongs, I think, but
how, exactly, do you attach the lower end of the comealong to the guy rod
shaft without interfering with the equalizer plates, etc.? I'll have about
3' of 5/8" galvanized rod sticking out of the ground at about a 41 degree
angle... Maybe I'm making this harder than it is, just because I haven't
done it yet, but the vision isn't perfectly clear yet.

And Stan, I believe you.

73, Jerry W5KP



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From w7why@harborside.com  Fri Jun  1 03:15:27 2001
From: w7why@harborside.com (Tom Osborne)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:15:27 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] copper roofs?
References: <9a.1571704f.28540d98@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B16FABF.2B462F0E@harborside.com>



K4IA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have a tin roof on my house.  I asked a lot of questions like >yours and got darn few answers.  I think no one really knows.  >It definitely isn't "ground" and you can't consider the roof a >monolith because there are seams. 

Hi All

A friend of mine, W7IVX, moved to a new QTH and until he got his
80 meter beam up, he was using a HF-2 on top of a metal roofed
barn.  He tied the tin together with screws and it worked out
real well.   Not as good as the 2 el. on a 180 foot tower, but
sufficient to work some good DX.  Probably a lot better than a
dipole at the same height.  73
Tom W7WHY

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From n3rr@erols.com  Thu Jun 14 01:36:27 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 01:36:27 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tensioning guys
References: <000701c0f46f$13bbdd00$1721c1cf@jkdesktop>
Message-ID: <018f01c0f46a$0cc4aae0$bb0f2c42@billspiii>

Jerry,

If I understand your question...

Attach the lower end of the comealong to the hole in the galvanized rod that
the equalizer plate is attached to, using a shackle (or other similar
device) of appropriate strength.
Then, attach the preformed guy grips to the guy cable through the
appropriate hole in the (loosened to three turns) turnbuckle on the
equalizer plate.  Then, slowly release tension on the turnbuckle
until the grip/turnbuckle/equalizer plate takes the tension up.  Continue
until all the tension is transferred, then remove the comealong/Klein
grip/shackle, etc.

Did I understand your question?  You may need to add an oversized shackle to
the hole in the galvanized rod in order to accommodate both the equalizer
plate and the temporary attachment point for the comealong. (This may be the
answer to your question as well.

73,

Bill, N3RR



----- Original Message -----
From: J. Kincade <w5kp@swbell.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 2:12 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tensioning guys


> I understand the methodology of the Klein grips and comealongs, I think,
but
> how, exactly, do you attach the lower end of the comealong to the guy rod
> shaft without interfering with the equalizer plates, etc.? I'll have about
> 3' of 5/8" galvanized rod sticking out of the ground at about a 41 degree
> angle... Maybe I'm making this harder than it is, just because I haven't
> done it yet, but the vision isn't perfectly clear yet.
>
> And Stan, I believe you.
>
> 73, Jerry W5KP
>
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>


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From w9re@worldnet.att.net  Thu Jun 14 04:58:25 2001
From: w9re@worldnet.att.net (Mike Wetzel)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:58:25 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
Message-ID: <NCBBIPEKMKEIENBFHFHJGEAMECAA.w9re@worldnet.att.net>

I have a prop pitch motor that has had oil drop in from the gear housing
(not mine I just got this prop pitch). Does anybody have any suggestions on
what to soak the stator windings (with housing) in to remove the oil (or
other method) but not harm the stator winding and insulation?  Right now I
can't remove the stator windings from the housing.

Mike W9RE


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From n4kg@juno.com  Thu Jun 14 06:59:39 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:59:39 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Father's Day gift ideas
Message-ID: <20010614.000251.-237617.2.N4KG@juno.com>

THREE comealongs are highly recommended, unless you 
need the aerobic exercise and have lots of time :-)

While you are at it, a plumb bob or two is nice for truing the tower.
Either attach at the center of the tower or use two supports (5-6 ft)
at right angles with a small woven cord or solid wire supporting a
pair of small weights (3-5 lbs).  Sit on the ground, hands behind
you, and sight the tower.

I use old Big Grips wrapped part way for my wire pullers.
Cheap and easy.

Tom  N4KG

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 "J. Kincade" <w5kp@swbell.net> writes:
> How about a Klein "Haven" type wire grip (as opposed to the Klein 
> "Chicago"
> grip, which has more moving parts), takes 1/8" to 1/2" wire, about 
> $58 at
> your local Klein dealer. Just bought one, a very nicely made little 
> tool. I
> may get a couple more so I can work three guys at once for 
> temporaries, but
> then of course I have to get two more comealongs, too. Dang. Pasting 
> money
> onto the hole in the sky again...  :-)
> 73, Jerry W5KP
> 
> >
> > OK, now I need something to tell my wife to get for me.  Any 
> ideas?
> >
> > Terry Zivney, N4TZ/9
> >

________________________________________________________________
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From n4kg@juno.com  Thu Jun 14 06:58:08 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:58:08 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tensioning guys
Message-ID: <20010614.000251.-237617.0.N4KG@juno.com>

The utility companies have nice attachments for adding
guys to their single loop anchors.  Another approach would
be to clamp a plate or angle iron with an appropriate size hole
to the rod.  Or, make a right angle attachment using boom to
element style construction with 4 U bolts and a flat plate.

A technique I use is to make a strap with small loops in each
end, looped through the anchor eye, using 1/8 inch 7 strand
galvanized steel wire (the old 6/18 guy wire).  A nylon harness
could also be used.

de  Tom  N4KG

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 20:12:26 -0500 "J. Kincade" <w5kp@swbell.net> writes:
> I understand the methodology of the Klein grips and comealongs, I 
> think, but
> how, exactly, do you attach the lower end of the comealong to the 
> guy rod
> shaft without interfering with the equalizer plates, etc.? I'll have 
> about
> 3' of 5/8" galvanized rod sticking out of the ground at about a 41 
> degree
> angle... Maybe I'm making this harder than it is, just because I 
> haven't
> done it yet, but the vision isn't perfectly clear yet.
> 
> And Stan, I believe you.
> 
> 73, Jerry W5KP
> 
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
> Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers 
> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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> 

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From n4kg@juno.com  Thu Jun 14 06:58:20 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:58:20 -0600
Subject: [Fwd: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections]
Message-ID: <20010614.000251.-237617.1.N4KG@juno.com>


NOW you tell us that you (W7NI) used a block and tackle
"IN PLACE OF" the single pulley at the top of the gin pole.

I *assume* that the block and tackle was installed between
the top of the gin pole and the LOAD which is consistent
with your measurements.  The early arguments were not
clear on the placement of the mechanical advantage.  A
block and tackle installed between the puller and the end
of a rope going over a SINGLE pulley at the top of a gin pole
will provide a mechanical advantage for the puller but NOT
for the gin pole, as I argued from the start.

It would have saved a lot of arguing to have made that clear
from the start. We've been arguing  Apples and Oranges
with blindfolds on all this time :-)

SO, yes, I agree that a Block and Tackle installed between
the top of a Gin Pole and the LOAD *will* reduce the load 
on the gin pole compared to a single pulley at the top.
The problem is simple once we have a clear description.

Tom  N4KG


On Wed, 13 Jun 2001  Stan or Patricia Griffiths <w7ni@easystreet.com>
writes:
> I thought I had sent this message to the reflector but apparently not 
> . . .
> 
> Stan or Patricia Griffiths wrote:
> 
> > Yes, I am ABSOLUTELY sure.  Like I said, I set up a demonstration 
> to prove it,
> > showed it at a Willamette Valley DX Club meeting with the help of 
> W7RR and
> > convinced each and everyone present that it works exactly as 
> described.
> >
> > What I did was set up a 6 foot vertical mast made of 1 inch 
> diameter aluminum
> > tubing.  Next, I rigged it with a small single pully at the top 
> and with a
> > spring scales inserted between the pully and the top of the mast 
> showing the
> > downward force on the pully which is the same as the load on the 
> mast.  Next, I
> > installed a known weight of 15 pounds (measured by the same spring 
> scale earlier
> > in the demonstration) on the load rope.  Next, I took up slack on 
> the "pull"
> > rope and when the weight lifted off the floor, W7RR read the 
> scale.  It said 30
> > pounds.  Why 30 pounds and not 15 pounds?  Because there are TWO 
> ropes pulling
> > down on the pully, one attached to the load and the other one 
> attached to the
> > hands of the person raising the load.  Both of these ropes 
> (technically, it is
> > only one rope but it has the same effect as if it were two 
> separate ropes, each
> > attached to the pully, in terms of applying load to the pully and 
> mast) have 15
> > pounds of tension each and pulling in the same direction (down) 
> and all of that
> > load (15 pounds EACH) is supported by the mast and pully.
> >
> > What I did then was make a small block and tackle with a 3:1 
> advantage and put
> > it in place of the single pully.  I again raised the load off the 
> floor and W7RR
> > read the scale in series with the pully.  I now read 20 pounds 
> instead of 30
> > pounds or 2/3 of the first number.  Now there are 3 strands of 
> rope holding the
> > weight (15 pounds) so the tension in the rope is 5 pounds instead 
> of 15 pounds
> > and the tension in the pull rope is also 5 pounds, since it is the 
> same
> > continuous rope.  So now there is effectively FOUR ropes pulling 
> down on the
> > pully (and mast) but each one only has a tension of 5 pounds each 
> (total 20
> > pounds) instead of TWO ropes with a tension of 15 pounds each 
> (total 30 pounds).
> >
> > This REALLY works.  If you STILL don't believe it, you can always 
> rig this at
> > home and TRY it yourself.  It is not rocket science.  Also, it is 
> not
> > intuitively obvious that it works which is why there are so many 
> non-believers.
> > You certainly can't deny that it is a VERY IMPORTANT concept and 
> reducing the
> > load on the gin pole by 33% could save your neck when you are 
> lifting that 250
> > pound long steel mast . . . isn't it worth checking it out?
> >
> > I have actually thought about making my demo kit available as a 
> traveling
> > program but there is nothing in it you can't get at the local 
> hardware store for
> > a couple of bucks.
> >
> > You know, when we hashed this out last time here on towertalk, I 
> went away with
> > the ugly feeling there were still a lot of non-believers out there 
> and I had
> > failed miserably to get this VERY IMPORTANT point across.  I hope 
> I made it this
> > time.  The bottom line is that you can try it yourself . . . so I 
> don't want to
> > hear from any nonbelievers who have not actually rigged this up 
> and made the
> > measurements themselves . . .  this means I should not get ANY 
> nonbeliever email
> > on this since, as soon as you try it, you will become a believer . 
> . . becauses
> > it is absolutely TRUE.
> >
> > Stan
> > w7ni@easystreet.com
> >
> > K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > In a message dated 6/12/01 11:45:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > > w7ni@easystreet.com writes:
> > >
> > > >  A 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle system does, 
> indeed, relieve
> > > >  about 1/3 of the load on the gin pole, in addition to 
> reducing the number
> > > of
> > > > bodies required on  the pull rope.
> > >
> > >     You sure? Isn't a hundred-pound load going to weigh 100 
> pounds no matter
> > > how the block and tackle are set up? The load effort on the end 
> of the rope
> > > will be reduced but the dead weight of the load stays the same. 
> You still
> > > need a suitable ginpole.
> > >
> > > Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
> > > Tower Tech
> 
> 
> 
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From Michael Tope" <W4EF@dellroy.com  Thu Jun 14 13:13:54 2001
From: Michael Tope" <W4EF@dellroy.com (Michael Tope)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 05:13:54 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <49B1F0812748D211A39100805F9FA681012CE5FC@lrdormail01.lrd.usace.army.mil>
Message-ID: <01fa01c0f4cb$7b19ca00$6401a8c0@neptune>

Same thing, Jim. Imagine that the tower is sitting in soft ground and 
starts to sink under the load suspended from the gin pole. With the 
configuration you describe (pull rope tied to a tree), the load will
drop 2 feet for every 1 foot that the tower sinks into the ground, 
thus the ginpole feels a force equal to twice the weight of the load
by virtue of the 2:1 mechanical advantage.  

73 de Mike, W4EF...............

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brown, James E LRDOR" <James.E.Brown@lrdor.usace.army.mil>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections


> And what if there are no workers applying "downforce", but instead the end
> of the line is tied off to a tree, and the load is suspended static?  
> 
> Jim   W4LC
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Finch [mailto:paulfinch@msn.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 2:24 PM
> To: Tower Talk; n4kg@juno.com
> Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> So the weight exhibited to the Gin pole at the top pulley mount point is the
> down force of the load line plus down force it takes to hold the load static
> at the workers end of the load line?  No matter how many times the
> advantage.  Right?
> 
> Paul Finch
> WB5IDM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of n4kg@juno.com
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 1:46 PM
> To: TOWERTALK@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
> 
> 
> More N4KG observations and comments inserted below.
> 
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:18:30 -0400 "Guy Olinger, K2AV"
> <k2av@contesting.com> writes:
> > The reduction mechanism of a ganged pulley system is in the number of
> > feet of rope the worker pulls in as a ratio to the distance the load
> > travels. In a two to one system the worker pulls 200 feet of rope to
> > lift the object 100 feet, thus the analog to a lever, and the
> > advantage.
> 
> The distance traveled is a RESULT of the mechanical
> advantage, NOT the CAUSE, but can be used to calculate
> the mechanical advantage.   N4KG
> 
> > Two to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block,
> > through pulley at top block, to worker.
> >
> > Three to one: rope tied at bottom block, through pulley at top
> > block, through pulley at bottom block, through pulley at top block,
> > to worker.
> >
> > Four to one: rope tied at top block, through pulley at bottom block,
> > through pulley at top block, through pulley at bottom block, through
> > pulley at top block, to worker.
> >
> > 73
> 
> Note the presense of MULTIPLE pulleys at the top
> of the block and tackle.  A  GIN pole has only ONE
> pulley at the top.  The only way to get a mechanical
> advantage is to use a SEPARATE block and tackle
> with a SECOND ROPE.  As I said before, this helps
> the puller but does nothing to reduce the load on the
> GIN Pole.   de  Tom  N4KG
> 
> >
> > >
> > > From: Mike Gilmer - N2MG <n2mg@contesting.com>
> > > Date: 2001/06/13 Wed AM 09:06:35 EDT
> > > To: towertalk@contesting.com
> > > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
> > >
> > > Nothing "magical" about it...
> > >
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
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From drsiddall@verner.com  Thu Jun 14 13:20:09 2001
From: drsiddall@verner.com (David Siddall)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:20:09 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] copper roofs?
Message-ID: <D13D064657CDD411BBF500508BAF274F53A8C6@DCEXCHG1>

Similar experience here.  In a 30-year period we put various verticals on
the copper roof of the U.S. Senate Office Building (W3USS).  The roof is
rectangular, about 225 feet to a side with a very large courtyard in the
middle.  The verticals all worked great until sometime during the late
70's/early 80's when increasing computer-generated noise raised the noise
floor from S0 on ten meters (for example) to S7-9.  Equivalent noise on
lower bands.  During the daytime noise on 40 & 80 meters was S9+10-20 dB by
the late 1980's.  Various noise reduction schemes and listening antenna
experiments were unsuccessful.  This noise was in addition to the elevator
and air circulation motors all running in the attic and probably grounded
into the same circuit as the copper roof, 100 feet in the air.

Rectification in the copper sheet roof joints was a big problem too.  One
day Senator Goldwater called me to ask why he was getting music and local
programming in the background of a 2 meter repeater frequency.  It was from
an AM broadcast antenna located a couple thousand feet behind Union Station
operating at ~1400 KHz.  I replaced the coax, making sure all the connectors
were completely soldered, but it persisted.  It eventually went away, then
would come and go without apparent explanation over many years.  

Operating 160 meter contests from there before sunset (when the AM station
either went QRT or amateur signals overpowered the AM signals) was quite an
experience too, more receiver-caused than rectification perhaps.  The joys
of operating at an urban QTH!             - Dave, K3ZJ

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Osborne [mailto:w7why@harborside.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:15 PM
To: TowerTalk
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] copper roofs?




K4IA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have a tin roof on my house.  I asked a lot of questions like >yours and
got darn few answers.  I think no one really knows.  >It definitely isn't
"ground" and you can't consider the roof a >monolith because there are
seams. 

Hi All

A friend of mine, W7IVX, moved to a new QTH and until he got his
80 meter beam up, he was using a HF-2 on top of a metal roofed
barn.  He tied the tin together with screws and it worked out
real well.   Not as good as the 2 el. on a 180 foot tower, but
sufficient to work some good DX.  Probably a lot better than a
dipole at the same height.  73
Tom W7WHY


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From K7LXC@aol.com  Thu Jun 14 14:30:45 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:30:45 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tensioning guys
Message-ID: <a.e380040.285a1685@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/13/01 6:37:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, n3rr@erols.com 
writes:

> You may need to add an oversized shackle to
>  the hole in the galvanized rod in order to accommodate both the equalizer
>  plate and the temporary attachment point for the comealong.

    I use a nylon sling webbing around the neck of the anchor rod as a choker 
and attach the comealong to it. That way nothing interfers with the 
turnbuckle attachment point or anchor rod eye. 

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From khopper@uchicago.edu  Thu Jun 14 15:32:39 2001
From: khopper@uchicago.edu (Ken Hopper)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:32:39 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] [Q] MFJ 259B analyzer vs Autek?
Message-ID: <3B28CB07.B6A2D33D@uchicago.edu>

Anyone have experience with the Autek unit? 
how does it compare to the MFJ analyzer? 
Preferences? 
suggestions?
Recommendations?

MFJ http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-259B
Autek http://www.autekresearch.com/

Thanks,
Ken N9VV <n9vv@n9vv.com>
http://www.n9vv.com

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From JBaumgarte@aol.com  Thu Jun 14 15:50:47 2001
From: JBaumgarte@aol.com (JBaumgarte@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:50:47 EDT
Subject: [Fwd: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections]
Message-ID: <c8.161ef1f0.285a2947@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/13/01 7:56:59 PM Central Daylight Time, 
w7ni@easystreet.com writes:

<< 
 > Yes, I am ABSOLUTELY sure.  Like I said, I set up a demonstration to prove 
it,
 > showed it at a Willamette Valley DX Club meeting with the help of W7RR and
 > convinced each and everyone present that it works exactly as described.
  >>
Stan and all,

Boy, talk about living with misconception for most of a lifetime!  Stan is 
absolutely correct!  After reading his description of the experiment and 
thinking about it, I was pretty sure, but then a quick call of a good friend 
who runs a big structural engineering company here in town (everyone who puts 
up a big tower with more antennas on it then thought practical should have 
one of these), confirmed the thought.  Guess what, though!  His quick, 
innitial reaction was "the load weight", but  after thinking for a few 
seconds corrected himself!  So, we shouldn't feel too bad!

His simple explanation is that just becuase you are changing the direction of 
the pull, the load doesn't get any lighter, and, you are, after all, pulling 
with the same force on the other end of the line!   2 plus 2 does equal 4!  
Appologies to the group and Stan for challenging the concept.  Whew, sure 
glad I had a heavy duty gin pole when I raised the 20'  half inch wall mast 
(200#)--had not considered that the load on the pole was really 400#.

Regards to all.

John, N0IJ

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From K7GCO@aol.com  Thu Jun 14 15:57:53 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:57:53 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
Message-ID: <114.481bcf.285a2af1@aol.com>

This is a sharp answer with some good humor to a lot of unnecessary nit 
picking that goes on, on Tower Talk.  They never ever contribute any useful 
info themselves--it's too risky.  Any comments.  K7GCO 
  
   In a message dated 6/7/01 8:36:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
k2av@contesting.com writes:
   << Ken blends a number of things together in his post. Let's separate them
    out:
    
   (1) Proportions are at issue. Most of the time I have seen a tribander and 
a
    two meter 10 element or some such up together, the two meter job has
    been five, six, ten feet above the tribander.  This is like 50 or 100
    feet separation on HF. The elements near the 2m driven element are
    something like ten, twelve inches apart. The interactions between the
    2m elements have the time (space) to form before the tribander below
    comes into play. To keep it analogous or proportional with the HF
    problem, IF you put that 2m beam inline with the tribander boom, only
    five inches above it, you WOULD get notable interaction, because one of
    the elements of the tribander is JUST AS TIGHTLY COUPLED into the 2m
    beam as its other elements. 
     
   (2) In the case of an 8JK, both elements are driven and create PRIMARY 
areas
    of partial cancellation IN THE NEAR FIELD. None such happens with a
    yagi. The primary radiation from the driven element is like a dipole.
    Only hole is off the ends.  
    
   (3) In the case of an HF triband or monoband yagi (what most people on this
    reflector are talking about) at the top of a tower with guy wires to
    within a few feet of top, the guy wire is right smack in the dense part
    of the near field, CAN have significant current on it, CAN distort the
    pattern. Put it in the model. It doesn't radiate only when it
    serendipitously just happens to balance out by some happy aspect of the
    instant orientation of the yagi elements and the length and orientation
    of the guy wire. From there rotate the yagi a bit and you're back into
    interaction. Or don't rotate it and see how much is radiating off the
    other two guys. 
    
  (4) On HF that upper guy is just like a snake in your pant leg. Plenty close
    enough to cause trouble. Best not ignore it.
    73
     >>
   Guy blends a number of things together in his post.  Lets separate them.  
In regard to your 1st paragraph this example is "not comparable to guy wires 
45 degrees from a tower" -- the "main example" of my short post.  Answers 
have to be relatively short and all extreme examples as you suggest can't be 
covered.  These posts are not a Doctors Thesis as some of you seem to think.  
The typical TT Post answers are not complete comprehensive articles where 
many typical and extreme examples are given.  Logical assumptions and 
exceptions are expected to be made by the readers and even by all the Know It 
Alls.  Patterns or pictures can't even be shown on TT.  The reader is 
expected to run his own patterns in Eznec and do some actual pattern 
measurements.  Nit picking without the courtesy of at least previous 
correspondence is really not ethically justified with all these technical 
limitations.
  
Further a 5" spacing between the 2M beam and the tri-bander boom as you 
suggest above is "totally absurd".  There is nothing "analogous or 
proportional with the HF" (your scaling is way off) in this comparison and 
I'd seriously question large coupling of the 2M beam to the tribander down 
the boom that the tribander sees.  I would expect some coupling of the 
tribander to the 2M beams free space pattern.  Only a very misinformed Novice 
would space or even suggest a 2M beam that close to a tribander!  So why even 
bring it up?  At least be fair in your nit picking.  5' not 5" spacing is 
frequently used but I use 10' for 2M beams over other beams.  This winter I 
used a 10' spacing for a 10M 3 element beam tuned for max gain over a 5 
element 6M beam.  The 6M beam had no affect on the 10M beams SWR or 
performance--in Eznec either.  Since you suggest this as a flaw in my 
suggestions, you show me patterns of a tribander beam in free space on all 3 
bands and then 5" under a 2M 11 element beam in free space for affect just to 
"actually support" your contention and not your opinion.  I test 2M beams in 
my basement for SWR and right below water pipes that don't up set the SWR 
even up close.  There may be some affect to the free space pattern but I or 
anyone would have to put it in Eznec to see what affect they have and the 
pipes are too many WL long to duplicate a tribander boom.  I found that if 
the SWR was good on a commercial 2M beam in my basement it was good on the 
tower with less surrounding objects.  SWR affect is all I can test in my 
basement.  Try again Guy--you struck out with a very bad example.  What was 
your real goal here that served a useful purpose?
  
  One of my test frequencies for scale models of quads, yagi's and wire 
antennas is the 100 MHz BC FM band.  These are constant RF sources 24 hours a 
day.  Although I have a JFD FS meter, I often use my FM receiver with 
S-meter.  Some still have horizontally polarized transmitting antennas.  
Vertically polarized 144&450 MHz repeater antennas are very difficult to test 
with as in this case the support is the same polarization as the antenna.  
There are ways to do it but it's a mess and time consuming.  TV stations can 
be used if horizontally polarized.
  
  Now I have run a couple thousand patterns on pattern recorders and many 
more on the air checking all the specific factors of "Gain, F/B and Nulls".  
How many have you run--on paper where you checked the Eznec or mfgs pattern 
on your tower with and without guys for example?  Show me the patterns.  I've 
developed very good insights into what upsets free space patterns and SWR 
that continues to check out on the ham bands.  It's not possible to properly 
cover all this in a few paragraphs and it's about all most TTer's can handle. 
 Suggestions are really somewhat limited to "General Guide Lines" for obvious 
reasons.  If you want more info, derive it yourself or ask for more details 
in the proper manner instead of nit picking with poor examples.  You can dig 
yourself some embarrassing holes that way.    
   
In regard to paragraph 2, I will state one more time, make a 2M W8JK and add 
directors and reflectors on each end, top and bottom to it and see what 
happens in actual practice and in Eznec.  They are even much stronger in 
their coupling influence than any guy wire not of the same polarization way 
out of the main field.  I can also assure you I know exactly what the pattern 
of a dipole is.  When 2 dipoles are close spaced at .125 WL and fed with 180 
phasing, things happen you will have to learn about.  It was only given as an 
example of a "tight vertical pattern" with vertical nulls right over the 
tower that everyone else assumed and realized it wasn't exactly similar to a 
yagi.  
  
  The Raibeam has a slightly closer spacing but a different phasing he 
learned to make maximum use of in a beneficial way.  Very few have.  
   
   I have only said "the higher the gain of the beam it becomes more isolated 
from surrounding objects (sees less of them)--not totally isolated".  It 
depends what you can live with or have to live with.  Rotating the beam just 
shows the average ham the E plane and the affects on the H plane are seldom 
ever known unless actually measured somehow or plotted in Exnec.  The W8JK 
just also happens to have it's pattern null directly underneath (and above) 
where the tower is and the guys start--if there.  That's an ideal situation 
not shared by yagi's.  I thought you would recognize that.  I didn't ignore 
or go into near field concepts as it was not justified.   

Further some near field concepts have been shot down recently.  If you can't 
live without your near field bit, get a Palomar RF Current Meter and actually 
measure the current in each close metal objects to your hearts content or 
read it from the Eznec current list.  These posts were for the average ham on 
TT.  I often encourage them to run some tests also on a 2M beam with 10W and 
a scaled tower and guys.  Use a 2M dipole with a light bulb in the center.  
I've done this very thing for talks I had demonstrating pattern immunity of 
yagi's around it and how to stop RF Spill Over below a vertical like the AEA 
Isopole does although also just using a single radial 1/4 WL below the 
regular radials.  I do have some solid foundations over all these years for 
my many suggestions.  If you follow my suggestions you will find much the 
same thing.  Heaven forbid I'd never lead you astray!  I'd never hear the end 
of it.
   
In regard to paragraph 3 I know very well what most hams use as I have used 
the same beams.  I've run all kinds of patterns and SWR with and without 
baluns, with RF ammeters in the DE feedpoint while rotating with and without 
guy--on and on--and published data 25 years ago.  I specifically recommended 
Phillistran guys for a 1/2 wave before a metal guy and also running the 1st 
metal guy 10 or more feet below the tower (you have a weak tower if the guys 
have to be at the top) with an insulator at the tower and at 5, 15, (also 
20') and 30' "from the tower"--so as to help isolate the guys from the beam 
and make you feel good.  I have found it works great watching the RF ammeters 
in the feedpoint, the SWR bridge when rotating and the plotting patterns.  
Why do you have a problem with this?  I have not ignored anything.  I covered 
the factors I found important over the years.  Run the live RF tests 
yourself, then in Eznec and then comment if you feel necessary.  
  
I'll say again--attaching a guy wire at the top of a tower is "totally 
absurd", I've never ever done it as it's just "asking for interaction" if not 
broken up.  If you can't attach guy wires at least 10' below the top of the 
tower, your tower is too weak and eliminates the independent use of a LF 
Inverted Vee which I have considerable experience with under beams.  I first 
used it in 1936 and had the first article on it on 8/60 QST.  "I've been 
there and done that many times addressing this interference problem."  
Sometimes slopers have a better match 10-15' below the beam and even at half 
the tower length or even lower.  I suggested that even in the late 30's and 
many times since--it seemed very obvious to a very young student of antennas. 
 There was no affect observable on the W8JK's or the Mims Beams back then and 
they had a broad vertical pattern.  A very good investment is a self 
supporting tower and/or a telephone pole.  Guy wire problems and their 
expenses just go away.  Their cost could be put towards the cost of a self 
supporting tower.  What kind of a price savings can you put on not having guy 
wire nuisance and interference when up close and unbroken?  
  
  In regard to paragraph 4, I never let resonant snakes get into my pant 
legs.  They could change my life style.  If it got close and in my "Near 
Field" I'd shoot holes in it with my 45 starting at 1" behind the head, then 
5", 10", 15", 20", 30" until I was sure it was "Non-Resonant, Not-Reactive and
 with No RF Bite ."  I like to keep my Driven Element "Self-Resonant."   
  
  Next time I'll try and cover all the combinations anyone can dream up and 
perhaps it will eliminate the constant need to clarify examples that are "not 
applicable."  So far all this info has been FREE of charge.  For a 
Professional Fee I'll be glad to derive all the data you think I left out and 
you are free to nit pick that all day long.  Legitimate questions are always 
welcome from TTer's as they sometimes create new slants or better ways to do 
things and I'm always looking for them.  TT should be called "The TT Nit 
Pickers Shooting Gallery."
  
  "One Test and Common Sense Is Still Worth 1000 Unnecessary Opinions."  (Old 
K7GCO Axiom)   
   

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From w7ti@jps.net  Thu Jun 14 16:05:01 2001
From: w7ti@jps.net (Bill Turner W7TI)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:05:01 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] [Q] MFJ 259B analyzer vs Autek?
In-Reply-To: <3B28CB07.B6A2D33D@uchicago.edu>
References: <3B28CB07.B6A2D33D@uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <jgkhitgj2irin850m1uq1k5bn9m52ubmqm@4ax.com>

On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:32:39 -0500, Ken Hopper wrote:

>Anyone have experience with the Autek unit? 
>how does it compare to the MFJ analyzer? 
>Preferences? 
>suggestions?
>Recommendations?

_________________________________________________________

I've owned both, and I eventually gave the Autek away to a
friend.  It does the job, but the MFJ is more user friendly.  My
MFJ is the original version, not the one with the LCD reactance
readout.

Bill, W7TI

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From w7ti@jps.net  Thu Jun 14 16:33:21 2001
From: w7ti@jps.net (Bill Turner W7TI)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:33:21 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] True Grit Tower Climber
Message-ID: <03lhits5usek7j0vd4aqsu5q5e4vp3gajj@4ax.com>

Interesting article on professional tower climber John Hignite in
today's LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/print/metro/20010614/t000049545.html

Bill, W7TI

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From K7GCO@aol.com  Thu Jun 14 16:35:50 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:35:50 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Excessive Band Aids
Message-ID: <cc.16634a54.285a33d6@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/11/01 2:51:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, aa4lr@arrl.net 
writes:
    << On 6/8/01 5:10 PM, K7GCO@aol.com at K7GCO@aol.com wrote:
      >used no TT Band Aids and have spent the .....
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     This seems to be a catch-phrase for you, Ken. You've used it in several 
     messages.
     
     Frankly, I've been a charter member of TowerTalk (virutally) since it's 
     inception, and I've never seen anyone advocate any "band aid" approach 
to 
     tower or antenna design.
     
     Indeed, the governing phylosophy of this list appears to be to do things 
     RIGHT. Doing the job right often means it costs more, but there are 
     substantial dangers to equipment, property or life doing it any other 
way.
     Now, prop-pitch rotators are most definitely over-rated for the vast 
     majority of tower installations, so it is no wonder that they perform 
     superbly in that service. They are also as scarce as hens-teeth. And 
     expensive. 
     
     I'm sure your 55-year-old prop pitch rotators will be giving fine 
service 
     to your grandchildren's heirs, but not all of us can afford, nor need 
     them.
     
     The new bell-housing rotators are also absurdly expensive, but it is a 
     lot easier to find used ones in servicable condition, or to bring back 
     one to condition yourself. (My Ham-M cost me less than $50 recently, 
plus 
     a couple hours of work to service it) If a few aerodynamic tricks make 
     the bell-housing rotators perform better, that's not a "band-aid", but a 
     good idea. Let's save those prop-pitches for when we really need them. 
    
     I thought no one would ever ask.  It applies to fixes on mostly an 
"inadequate electrical or mechanical design or equipment".  "If something 
needs fixing or beefing up--It's inadequate."  (Old K7GCO Axiom)  
  
  I've used the "Catch Phrase Band Aids" about 50 times in the past 1 1/2 
years relating to just specific repairs to what it infers.  What have you 
been reading?  I had a specific discussion with you on this very point where 
you were defending the use of rivets in general and 2 in line to secure 
telescoping elements when the larger one is less than .058" wall.  The 
element is relatively rigid in only one plane where with hose clamps it's 
rigid and secured it in "ALL 360 Degree Directions".  Aluminum pop rivets of 
the diameter used are not a secure device for something with stresses--24 hrs 
a day.  Hammer rivet (not pop rivets) are more secure if large enough and are 
used in airplanes.  Getting behind them with a bucking bar is impossible 
inside elements.  As a Quality Assurance Engineer at Boeing I worked with and 
ran failure tests on all kinds of rivets and know exactly all of their 
limitations of each and every design which I tried to get across to 
you--repeatedly at the time with no success.  TT was full of "Failure 
Reports" which should have been enough to convince you of their limitations 
yet you continued to defend them.  The manufacture even eliminated the use of 
some of them.  They are fast and cheap to use in manufacturing and kit 
building but don't hold up unless they are what I call are "over size" and 
even then I don't use them on antennas where things can wiggle 24 hours a day 
with various loads on them.  "They Failed"--that's the "Big Clue" of 
inadequate design.  "Longevity and No Maintenance" should be the design goals 
we strive for and demand from manufacturers.  I've been oriented that way 
since the 30's as a nickel a day allowance (and what I could earn) "Radio 
Pension" had to be stretched as far as I could during the Depression and WWII 
where there were "no replacements."  I still have my original open wire line 
I made.  It was very cheap to make, has the "same low loss now" even with 
high SWR it had back then and now, doesn't need all those charts telling of 
"increased loss in coax with higher SWR on TT" and has never needed a repair. 
 Come to think of it I did break a spacer one time.  That open wire line has 
probably carried more RF than any ham feedline in history.  I've broken a 
wire on another open wire line and a "soldering job" was all that was needed. 
 
 
 Actually coax is just a fad and will go away.  Hold it I'm just kidding.  
Some have taken that seriously and got all upset.  Open wire line (the good 
stuff) is now being sold you know.  If you learn how to use Antenna Tuners, 
certain feedline lengths, techniques I suggest and don't listen to the poo 
pooers who haven't, you might like the results.  All those fancy and very 
expensive coax connectors for the big expensive coax just go away.  I'm 
trying to save you money.   
    
A recent "TT Band Aid" discussion had to do with the Prop Pitch Motor or I 
should say the "lack of use of it" from my standpoint.  There have been many 
many discussions on all kinds of extra beam, rotator, guy and tower stresses 
when a beam is unbalanced to the wind.  All kinds of math lessons are given 
on wind loads to tower and beams--on and on.  I can do the math but I haven't 
had to all these years because I had the good sense or luck from day 1 to use 
properly guyed (sometimes with ropes) (and self supporting towers to 
eliminate guy wire problems dominating TT now) that were perhaps over rated 
and PP rotators that were overrated by your standards.  I can't buy your 
statement "let's save those prop-pitches for when we really need them."  From 
what I read on TT we need them NOW properly installed.
 
 I beef up booms and elements in the middle so I don't even need cable braces 
(another Band Aid with inadequate boom design initially at least on 20M and 
up) and with my selections they have taken all the winds even with ice 
loading for some 55 years.  I have the same rotators and other parts "still 
working and undamaged."  You need a "realignment of your ratings and 
standards."
    
 Rotators are purposely underrated so that TT would be full of all kinds of 
rotator problems and they would have more of your money over time.  I like 
"one time purchases and NO maintenance."  One rotator mfg asked me for one of 
my proven Antenna Tuner Designs to mfg.  He didn't want to pay anything for 
it either?  His rotator designs were and present employment business 
practices for another company now are on the cheap side also.   
     
 Any rotator by my standards that lasts 55 years with no signs of wear with 
all kinds of loads (some unbalanced) "is not over rated."  It's rated just 
right.  Smart hams should make every effort to use them and cultivate this 
type of thinking.  They will save a lot of money.  I have 8 PP motors and 
every damn one is converted to higher speeds than 3/4 RPM which I have no 
patients for except for a 75M beam--someday I'll have one.  I use 2-6 rpm 
depending on the size of the beam.  I hear of all kinds of horror stories by 
those who have "never used a properly designed PP system."  You would think 
that by now I'd have found a few or "even one problem they absolutely insist 
I have"?  I say 1 RPM is just enough to not be too slow for most and not 
require bigger gears and brakes--in particular if faster.  I say that is a 
"Band Aid Design" and TT is full of all it's problems.  I speed up even 
commercial rotators and just don't over load them.  I speed up even the small 
TV rotators and it's a joy to see TV antennas spin at 4-5 RPM.  I can peak an 
unknown signal real fast even with a 2 element beam.  I've a couple thousand 
patterns or more on paper and by watching S-meters which I wouldn't have done 
without a fast rotator.  I have Eznec patterns I check out on the air 
inparticular for "nulls" and haven't found a lot of the "null fill in 
surrounding objects" (that many go to great length reporting on TT) in actual 
practice and in Eznec.  The biggest problem is "RF Spill Over" of what I call 
"Band Aid Feed Systems" the creator of it and it's sins which no one else has 
addressed.  Use balanced feed systems and many problems just go away.  That's 
why I like balanced 100 ohm coax into FD DE's on beams and quads.  Balanced 
1/4 wave stubs can be made of several Zo's to use for lower Z feedpoints on 
yagi's.  With "link coupled tank circuits" one can match a balanced or 
unbalanced feedline from 30 to 1000 ohms.  Receivers had balanced inputs 
years ago.  So in some cases an Antenna Tuner is a Band Aid.  It is needed 
for Z loads above 1000 ohms at the end of an open wire feedline when using 
link coupling or a Pi.  Actually there is a way with Hi-Z loads to couple 
directly to the tank with 2 capacitors. 
    
 I just paid and all time high of $50 (he wanted $75) for a medium PP motor 
at a flee market and there were 3 others there I felt overpriced--$100.  You 
can certainly afford that.  You just need to know how to use them.  It was a 
real mechanical joy converting it and I took a lot of digital pictures of 
each step although I had plenty from the past.  I may publish a Prop Pitch 
Motor Handbook and may do a Maintenance Service on them later as beams are 
getting bigger and Slow Band Aid Rotators are getting real expensive.  It 
appears there will a market for this info.  I just don't understand why you 
say "lets save the PP motors for when we really need them."  What's wrong 
with using them NOW when they would be the cheapest and have "strong 
mechanical rotator clout" (new term I just created) which is always needed.  
Many have to be dragged kicking and screaming into better ways of doing 
things in many areas.
 
 If "no one is advocating a Band Aid approach to towers and rotators" as you 
claim, how come so many are having so many problems?  A good repair to 
anything is great if it lasts.  Use bigger stuff than recommended and 
problems go away.  There are "No Relectors for PP Motors" and other 
adequately designed products.  I plan to have PP motor info on a future Web 
Site for conversion and use--not repair unless improperly used.  
    
 I got most of my PP motors real cheap like $10-20, so in 55 years I don't 
have over $200 invested and only one maintenance job where water got into one 
not properly protected.  I overhauled the rusty bearings and it's still 
rotating.  I was recently asked how I kept the water out and I answered him 
by E-mail in absence of a quick picture.  PP Motors "are not scarce as hens 
teeth"-- I see them at every flee market at good prices and when I get time 
I'll buy them up, overhaul them and makes some money. 
    
 Other TT Band Aids are the transmission line coupling from a BMW to soften 
wind torque's on rotators.  One TTer suggested another Band Aid of a 40' mast 
pile into the tower to "give a little."  You don't need all that with a PP 
Motor.  All this has been known for years.
   
 All the concrete problems and heavy math that dominated TT are interesting 
and needed for certain installations.  I have suggested telephone poles 
repeatedly with a 2 wire track on the side.  You dig a hole and have the 
Power Co drop it in, fill in the dirt around it and you are done in a hour or 
less.  Be sure and take care of the driver and crew with a few bottles of the 
proper spirits.  If you move, cut it off below the ground level with a chain 
saw, sell it locally and throw a can of "Stump Remover" on it.  The only math 
needed is what was needed to "Buy the Spirits."  The widow doesn't have the 
problem of removing the concrete block in the ground either.  Telephone poles 
are far more acceptable than towers to neighbors I've noticed.
 
 There has been big discussions of guy wire interference to beams on TT.  It 
does occur and I gave simple solutions.  I have suggested connecting unbroken 
up guys to the top of the tower is not a really smart way to ruin a pattern 
and a major dumb dumb many repeat.  Who says guys have to be connected to the 
top of a tower?--Weak tower Mfgs do.  I say that "if your guys can't be 
connected 10-15' below the top of the tower--your tower is too weak".  The 
lower connection will reduce guy wire interference although I would still use 
a 1/2 wave of Phillistran before the wire guy just to be on the safe side.  
Lower guy connections also make it a a lot easier to install a beam  
 
 A yagi's basic design involves telescoping joints.  I and many others found 
over the years, joints become lossy and capacitive.  I developed a cleaning 
process for the problem as needed.  I then used the various goops and found 
they helped but some would eventually fail and get hard enough that a file 
was necessary to remove it.  I have ways to check beam performance with 
pattern recorders.  I've used a capacitance meter and a HP low resistance 
meter on the joints.  A regular ohm meter is all you really need.  It will 
show you if the joint is capacitive also--the Xc value is irrelevant.  So I 
got tired of that nonsense and now use a flee market solder on the joints and 
I have "ZERO Maintenance and ZERO Resistance" on the joints--continuously.  I 
believe I'm the only yagi user that can make that statement and yes soldering 
the joints could be called a "Band Aid Fix" but it lasts.  It's the only way 
to solve the joint problem 100%.  Prior to soldering the joints I had a "Saw 
Tooth Performance Curve" created by regular cleaning.  I have run adhesive 
backed aluminum and copper tape over the elements with good results.  I've 
cut long strips of copper sheet, coated it and the aluminum or fiberglass 
elements with contact adhesive and stuck it on there.  You can still buy 
this.  I rotated it slowly in the lathe and wrapped plastic tape around it.  
Shrink on tubing is too expensive.  I noticed reductions in feedpoint Z's and 
a slight resonant frequency change with the copper wrapped elements. This 
adhesive backed aluminum tape is ideal for a strip across the double folding 
joints on TV antennas in the center in the high current area.  It's 
convenience and necessity for shipping would get very resistive.  This would 
show up when running TV antenna patterns.    
 
 Quads have a "Straight Line Performance Curve."  The joints are soldered and 
there is "never any performance deterioration".  I'm "yagi'd out" after all 
these years, have a family of good designs, and am switching to new 
challenges with quads.  Quads are also very easy to scale to the100 MHz FM BC 
band (or any band) to use RF sources that are on 24 hours a day from all 
directions and you can use your FM receiver as FS meter.  The reason they are 
very easy to scale compared to yagi's is that wire sizes come in very close 
steps.  Model airplane tubing doesn't.  Spacing and length are easy to scale 
with both, diameter steps aren't.  
 
 I like PFA's-- "Permanently Fixed Aids" and "Controlled Buying and Other 
Pressures" that forces manufacturers to produce better stuff.  Then a 
"Reflector for Fixes" isn't even needed.  E-mail is 50 times more useful than 
regular mail.  Lets make the most use of it which we still can before they 
tax it.  
   
 I'm just trying to save you money and wasted maintenance time.  There are 
many more Band Aids I could have mentioned but I think you and others should 
have got the message by now.  Bill, do you have any further question?  K7GCO  
 

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From k2av@contesting.com  Thu Jun 14 16:37:57 2001
From: k2av@contesting.com (Guy Olinger, K2AV)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:37:57 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
Message-ID: <20010614153845.IUDA27698.imf06bis.bellsouth.net@mail.bna.bellsouth.net>


> 
> From: K7GCO@aol.com
> Date: 2001/06/14 Thu AM 10:57:53 EDT
> To: towertalk@contesting.com, k2av@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Breaking up guy wires for nonresonance
> 
> This is a sharp answer with some good humor to a lot of unnecessary nit 
> picking that goes on, on Tower Talk.  They never ever contribute any useful 
> info themselves--it's too risky.  Any comments.  K7GCO 

As I said before, modeled 'em, measured 'em, done all that, been there. I stand by my post, Ken. You're not the only one with a meter.




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From n6ws@msn.com  Thu Jun 14 08:33:09 2001
From: n6ws@msn.com (Chris & Bill Shell)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:33:09 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Quadrifilar antenna
In-Reply-To: <000401c0f27d$af5e4ac0$0ded83d1@office>
Message-ID: <BGECJAFKJHPEIEKNBLKMKEGCCAAA.n6ws@msn.com>

Ford,
I use quadrifilar helix antennas for UHF uplinks.  The antennas provide a
fairly uniform hemispherical CP coverage pattern.  The pattern isn't truly
hemispherical since the pattern covers to about 5-10 degree depression from
the bottom plane.  The quadrifilar helix can be made to be very broad-banded
by increasing the size of the tubing used.  If you use 1 inch copper flex
water pipe you can achieve low VSWR from 400-450 MHz.
73, Bill
N6WS

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Ford Peterson
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 10:29 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Quadrifilar antenna


I have been reading Walt Maxwell's new book Reflections II.  He describes a
"Quadrifilar Helix" antenna used for satellite work.  Anybody played with
these babies?  I've been modeling the design and it looks quite promising.

180 degree az pattern over almost 175 degrees of elevation.   Wow!  It's a
cloud burner but just the ticket for LEO (Low Earth Orbit) satellite work.
I've been looking at making one but the materials are a problem.  There was
an article in QST a while back that described making one but frankly, the
cheesy construction leaves a bit to be desired.  In addition, there are
several aspects of the Maxwell paper that lead one to believe that the QST
version is a hoax (it can't possibly work at the top of a tower).

If somebody has experience with these antennas, I'd love to hear from them
direct.  Perhaps we can share notes, models, etc.

Ford-N0FP
ford@cmgate.com




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From K7NV@contesting.com  Thu Jun 14 21:00:24 2001
From: K7NV@contesting.com (Kurt Andress)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:00:24 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <20010613.151919.-237865.1.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3B2917D8.49B5A2CE@contesting.com>

n4kg@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> A gin pole for heavy loads can be configured by using
> a block and tackle BETWEEN the SUPPORT and the LOAD
> where there are MULTIPLE pulleys and one end of the rope
> is connected to one of the blocks.
> 
 
Hi Tom and all,

Remember, when evaluating the true effect of the "reduced load" on the
ginpole, that if the load is not directly below the pole, but creates a
small angle between the line and the pole, that the pole is not going to
realize any significant reduction in stress from the use of the mechanical
advantage.

Put a 10 degree angle between the pole and the load line, look at the
bending stress at the base of the pole, and it will become apparent. A 12'
Rohn ginpole lifting 250 lbs realizes a 1.3% reduction in stress when the
mechanical advantage (between load and pole) is changed from 1:1 to 4:1. 

The mechanical advantage should be viewed as an aid to those lifting the
load, but not much help for the pole.

-- 
73, Kurt, K7NV

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From abowen@nettally.com  Thu Jun 14 18:20:34 2001
From: abowen@nettally.com (ABowenN4OO)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:20:34 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] MFJ 259B analyzer vs Autek?
In-Reply-To: <3B28CB07.B6A2D33D@uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010614125838.00ad0490@mail.nettally.com>

At 09:32 AM 6/14/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>Anyone have experience with the Autek unit?
>how does it compare to the MFJ analyzer?
>Preferences?
>suggestions?
>Recommendations?
=====================
Like a lot of other things, it depends.

MFJ has a wider frequency range. You can check out your 6M and 2M antennas. 
The B model even gives you values of X, although they may not be really 
accurate. It is good enough if you are only interested in "ball park" 
values. The unit is quicker in that you can find the frequency of resonance 
a lot faster. The measurement of the R component may or may not be all that 
accurate. The analog meter on mine for example, does not agree with the 
digital readout. You have to use a resistor to resolve this if you need to 
be really accurate.

Autek gives you slightly better resolution of values, especially R. It is 
debatable how accurate these values are, but you can always check things 
out with a resistor. Mine seems to be quite close. The values of X are 
probably not all that accurate, but hardly anything this side of a General 
Radio or Hewlett Packard is all that accurate.

With the Autek, you can also measure values of C and L. That is worth 
something. The frequency range is limited to about 34 mhz. You can be a 
little more precise with finding the correct length of 1/4 and 1/2 
wavelength transmission lines. I use the MFJ to get in the ball park and 
the Autek to tweak to the final value.

For designing matching networks for verticals, I use a small universal L 
network. I place it at the base, adjust for zero SWR using the MFJ and then 
measure the values of L and C with the Autek. It works correctly every time.

The Autek is also useful for checking loss in coax.

Obviously the solution is to own both, as I do. Each has it's own good 
features.

If I could only own one, I suppose it would be the MFJ. I would hate giving 
up the ability to measure L, C and coax loss, however.

INK N4OO



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From bravo@iol.ie  Thu Jun 14 21:46:34 2001
From: bravo@iol.ie (John Tait)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:46:34 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] MFJ 259B analyzer vs Autek?
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010614125838.00ad0490@mail.nettally.com>
Message-ID: <006501c0f513$1b1f6540$0194cbc1@johntait>

   Hi...
            Like N4OO, I also own both units..  I would agree completely
with his comments..
The MFJ for speed and ease of use...The Autek for accuracy.
           73
            John   EI7BA   http://www.iol.ie/~bravo/


----- Original Message -----
Subject: [TowerTalk] MFJ 259B analyzer vs Autek?



> >Anyone have experience with the Autek unit?
> >how does it compare to the MFJ analyzer?
> >Preferences?
> >suggestions?
> >Recommendations?
> =====================
> Like a lot of other things, it depends.
>
> MFJ has a wider frequency range. You can check out your 6M and 2M
antennas.
> The B model even gives you values of X, although they may not be really
> accurate. It is good enough if you are only interested in "ball park"
> values. The unit is quicker in that you can find the frequency of
resonance
> a lot faster. The measurement of the R component may or may not be all
that
> accurate. The analog meter on mine for example, does not agree with the
> digital readout. You have to use a resistor to resolve this if you need to
> be really accurate.
>
> Autek gives you slightly better resolution of values, especially R. It is
> debatable how accurate these values are, but you can always check things
> out with a resistor. Mine seems to be quite close. The values of X are
> probably not all that accurate, but hardly anything this side of a General
> Radio or Hewlett Packard is all that accurate.
>
> With the Autek, you can also measure values of C and L. That is worth
> something. The frequency range is limited to about 34 mhz. You can be a
> little more precise with finding the correct length of 1/4 and 1/2
> wavelength transmission lines. I use the MFJ to get in the ball park and
> the Autek to tweak to the final value.
>
> For designing matching networks for verticals, I use a small universal L
> network. I place it at the base, adjust for zero SWR using the MFJ and
then
> measure the values of L and C with the Autek. It works correctly every
time.
>
> The Autek is also useful for checking loss in coax.
>
> Obviously the solution is to own both, as I do. Each has it's own good
> features.
>
> If I could only own one, I suppose it would be the MFJ. I would hate
giving
> up the ability to measure L, C and coax loss, however.
>
> INK N4OO
>



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From i4jmy@iol.it  Thu Jun 14 22:01:32 2001
From: i4jmy@iol.it (Maurizio Panicara)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:01:32 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] MFJ 259B analyzer vs Autek?
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010614125838.00ad0490@mail.nettally.com> <006501c0f513$1b1f6540$0194cbc1@johntait>
Message-ID: <001801c0f515$34153fa0$dd9b0f97@i4jmy>

Once I couldn't us an Autek analyzer because it was fooled by the RF field
produced by a medium power FM Broadcast transmitter, located several hundred
meters away.
I have been reported the same by several other users.

73,
Mauri I4JMY

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Tait" <bravo@iol.ie>
To: <khopper@uchicago.edu>; "ABowenN4OO" <abowen@nettally.com>
Cc: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] MFJ 259B analyzer vs Autek?


>    Hi...
>             Like N4OO, I also own both units..  I would agree completely
> with his comments..
> The MFJ for speed and ease of use...The Autek for accuracy.
>            73
>             John   EI7BA   http://www.iol.ie/~bravo/
>



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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Thu Jun 14 21:16:48 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:16:48 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Gin Pole Failure
Message-ID: <3B291BB0.92CD6DD7@easystreet.com>

There is a very good reason why this subject is so vitally
important to get across to
everyone who messes with gin poles to lift anything heavier
than a bare Rohn 45
section.  I just got off the phone with Paul, K7PN, who told
me about a guy he knows in 3
land (I don't remember who, and I wouldn't say who if I did
know because he should come
forth himself, if he wants to . . .)  anyway, this guy was
using a stock Rohn Gin Pole
to lift a very heavy and long mast when the gin pole
folded.  He was hit in head by
swinging steel and he now has a concussion.  I don't know if
he was using a block and
tackle to reduce the load on the gin pole or not (I doubt
it, since so few people have
the equipment to do it) but if he HAD been, he MIGHT still
have a whole gin pole AND a
whole head.  THAT is why this is an IMPORTANT discussion.

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com




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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Thu Jun 14 21:50:23 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:50:23 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Gin Pole and Rope Economy
Message-ID: <3B29238F.59070513@easystreet.com>

One thing that constantly surfaced during the discussion on
using a block and tackle with a 3:1 mechanical advantage to
reduce the load on the gin pole was the objection to having
to use a LOT of expensive rope.  Here is a technique to
minimize that problem.  Yes, its more work, but uses a LOT
less rope.  There is always a trade-off . . .

Say you are raising a 200 pound mast up to the top of a 100
foot tower.  If you are a believer and plan to use a 3:1
block and tackle at the top of your gin pole (which is
sitting at about 110 feet above ground), you will need a
continuous length of rope that will run 4 times up and down
the tower from the top of the gin pole to the ground, or 440
feet of rope.  This is a LOT of expensive rope . . .

But wait!  It only has to be one continuous piece if you
expect all of it to fit through the pullys.  That last piece
that runs down the tower to the workers pulling the mast up
never has to pass through the block and tackle pullys so it
can have a knot in it at the top of the tower.  This still
means you need 440 feet of rope but it can be made of two
pieces . . . one is 330 feet long and the other is 110 feet
long tied to the first piece.  Yes, 330 feet is still a very
long and expensive piece of rope, but wait . . . there is a
way to save even more rope!

In this next scenerio, you lift the mast in two stages.
Stage one gets the mast to the top of the tower.  You can do
this by rigging a single pulley on and near the top of the
tower itself (not the gin pole).  The tower is generally
PLENTY strong enough to support the entire load with no
benefit of the mechanical advantage of a block and tackle.
This step requires a length of rope 200 feet long, and
anyone contemplating a 100 foot tower should already own a
strong rope of this length.

Next, you temporailty tie off the mast near the top of the
tower and prepare to hoist it the last 10 feet over the top
and down inside the tower.  This is the only time you need
to use the gin pole to help lift this mast in place and
therefore, the only time you really need the mechanical
advantage of the block and tackle.  Since you won't be using
the gin pole and block and tackle to do a lift from the
ground, you only need about 36 feet of rope to run 3 times
through the pullys to do a 10 foot lift at the top of your
tower.  You still need to get the end of the rope to the
ground 110 feet below so the rope needs to be about 146 feet
long.  We already decided you have to own a 200 foot piece
anyway so you have all the rope you need to do this.  But
wait . . . there is more!

This last 146 foot piece can really be two pieces tied
together since the 110 foot piece going from the top of the
gin pole to the pulling crew will never have to pass through
the block and tackle pulleys.  It can be made of a 110 foot
piece with a 36 foot piece tied to it.

So that's it . . . the only thing you need now are a couple
of good blocks . . . one single and one double.  I have
found them at estate sales for as little as $5 or $10.  New
ones cost about 5 or 10 times that much but think of all the
money you are saving on the rope you don't have to buy now!

The above suggestions would have been pretty useless a
couple of days ago when we were still arguing about whether
it makes any sense at all the use a block and tackle for
lifting heavy masts.

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com



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From mfarrer@tality.com  Thu Jun 14 22:14:48 2001
From: mfarrer@tality.com (Mel Farrer)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:14:48 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] MFJ 259B analyzer vs Autek?
Message-ID: <97A30A2BBA23D411842900D0B726125D61646C@srvex03-sanjose.Cadence.COM>

Any bridge device that uses the reflected signal for amplitude and phase
information will be disabled by a moderate to high RF field.  The filter
that MFJ sells for their 259 does not eliminate the problem. I know of no
bridge except for especially designed high power ones that overcome this
problem.

-----Original Message-----
From: Maurizio Panicara [mailto:i4jmy@iol.it]
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 2:02 PM
To: John Tait; khopper@uchicago.edu; ABowenN4OO;
towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] MFJ 259B analyzer vs Autek?


Once I couldn't us an Autek analyzer because it was fooled by the RF field
produced by a medium power FM Broadcast transmitter, located several hundred
meters away.
I have been reported the same by several other users.

73,
Mauri I4JMY

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Tait" <bravo@iol.ie>
To: <khopper@uchicago.edu>; "ABowenN4OO" <abowen@nettally.com>
Cc: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] MFJ 259B analyzer vs Autek?


>    Hi...
>             Like N4OO, I also own both units..  I would agree completely
> with his comments..
> The MFJ for speed and ease of use...The Autek for accuracy.
>            73
>             John   EI7BA   http://www.iol.ie/~bravo/
>



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From jirka@jimaz.cz  Thu Jun 14 23:14:38 2001
From: jirka@jimaz.cz (Jiri Sanda)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:14:38 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] MFJ 259B analyzer vs Autek?
In-Reply-To: <97A30A2BBA23D411842900D0B726125D61646C@srvex03-sanjose.Cadence.COM>
Message-ID: <NBBBKAIBCJDDIHOEIBGDOEAPEFAA.jirka@jimaz.cz>

Hello everyone !

I will come with my opinion.

I own AUTEK (over 5 years now, someone wants to buy it ?) + MFJ269 (about
1+1/2 year) + TESLA Laboratory ADMITTANCE bridge - precision device over
25Years old - having well over 30 Kgs. It was calibrated a few years ago
with modern professional Marconi bridge and was doing fine - let's take it
as a standard.

I have measured 2 pcs of Auteks, 3 pcs of MFJ259B, 2 pcs of MFJ269 against
the professional bridge on my antennas and R + L + C networks. I have never
had in my hands the 259.

Concerning accuracy the AUTEK and 259B is about the same , 269 is
considerably better. If you open the two mentioned MFJ units - it is visible
the detector is completely different.

Ease of use - AUTEK by HUGE far the worst. Tuning is very coarse or too
fine. Measurement of C + L is not very convenient to dummies with
engineering master degree like myself. It is hard to guess what to do with
the antenna from the result. What you get from MFJ is much easier to use in
the real life. The professional bridge is also fine provided you stay on the
ground and are ready to use your muscles + 220V power.

Concerning the interference from the band or other jamming signals - AUTEK
is the worst, MFJ 259B is better, 269 is again better than 259B. The
professional bridge is a bit better but not a big deal.

The AUTEK is so bad that on 20-10 in the afternoon (my) when you point the
ant towards USA it is impossible to measure at all. It is useless on 40m and
down most of the time - while the MFJs are still showing something. The main
difference is that on the analog meter of the MFJ you see - this frequency
is bad - lets move a few kHz, on AUTEK you after a second get some
measurement - God knows what ?!?

I would go for the 269. It is more expensive but you get much better device
for modest rise of $. We all do spend big $$$ on antennas + towers so let's
measure it precisely to get the punch out !

73 !

Jiri

OK1RI





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From n4kg@juno.com  Fri Jun 15 01:06:50 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:06:50 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Gin Pole and Rope Economy
Message-ID: <20010614.182551.-18103.0.N4KG@juno.com>

Good points Stan.

Question:

What is the rated lifting capacity of the Rohn Gin Pole?

I have heard of people bending those expensive tools
trying to use it to raise antennas on a tram line.  
I NEVER use a gin pole to pule anything up at an angle.

Another idea would be to use the Rohn Gin Pole to raise
and install (either inside the tower or strapped to the outside)
a long thick wall aluminum mast with an attached Block
and Tackle.  Then use this heavier duty mast to raise the
heavy steel mast.

The BEST idea is to install the heavy mast when only
20 or 30 ft of tower is assembled, either by walking it up
or gin pole or gin pole on a separate R25 tower 10 ft higher,
strapped alongside the BIG tower going up.

The scariest thing I ever did on a tower was install a 20 ft
1/4 inch wall steel mast in a 130 ft tower using a Rohn
Gin pole with NO mechanical advantage.  Never again!

de  Tom  N4KG


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From n4kg@juno.com  Fri Jun 15 01:17:39 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:17:39 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010614.182551.-18103.2.N4KG@juno.com>

Ron,

Your point is valid ONLY if the block and tackle is between the
support and the load.  

If the block and tackle is between the puller and the gin pole rope,
the tension in the puller's rope is reduced by the mechanical advantage
but the load on the GIN pole remains at 2X the weight of the Load
plus friction losses.

Broad statements without clarification can be VERY misleading
and incorrect if applied universally.  This is were accidents happen
and people get hurt.

de Tom  N4KG

On Thu, 14 Jun 2001  "Ron D. Rossi" <rrossi@btv.ibm.com> writes:
> 
> Regardless of any of the tensions on the ropes used in lifting a 
> weight the  only NET forces acting on the system (ignoring friction) 
> are the  weight of the  object being lifted PLUS the downward force 
>exerted to lift it.
> 
> Reduce the force required to lift the load and that contribution to 
> the NET is  reduced.
> 
> -- 
> 73 es God Bless de KK1L...ron (kk1l@arrl.net) <><
> QTH: Jericho, Vermont
> My page: http://www.qsl.net/kk1l
>  
> >>>n4kg@juno.com said:
> > I agree with this scenario which is an example of my
> > statement that the mechanical advantage equals the
> > number of segments between the support and the load.
> > 
> > A gin pole for heavy loads can be configured by using
> > a block and tackle BETWEEN the SUPPORT and the LOAD
> > where there are MULTIPLE pulleys and one end of the rope
> > is connected to one of the blocks.
> > 
> > For the standard Rohn Gin pole this is NOT how it works
> > and the argument proposed by some here that a mechanical
> > advantage between the puller and a standard single pulley
> > on the gin pole provides a load readuction for the gin pole is 
> > FALSE.
> > 
> > My arguments ASSUMED a typical Rohn Gin Pole with
> > a single pulley at the top.  Yes, a multi-pulley system
> > can be configured to provide a mechanical advantage.
> > We really must keep our apples and oranges separate :-)
> > Sorry if there was some confusion between these two
> > different types of pulley arrangements.
> > 
> > Tom  N4KG
> > 
> > On Wed, 13 Jun 2001  David Robbins <k1ttt@berkshire.net> writes:
> > > i have not had a need to do it, but a 2:1 arrangement would also 
> be 
> > > easy to do. 
> > > all you need to do is tie one end of the rope to the top of the 
> > > pole, run
> > > through a single moving pulley where you attach the load, then 
> go 
> > > through the
> > > normal gin pole pulley and back to the ground.  of course it 
> takes 
> > > 50% more rope
> > > than just going up and over the gin pole pulley.  why not DOUBLE 
> the 
> > > rope you
> > > may say??? well, think about it... in the normal setup you go up 
> the 
> > > tower and
> > > back down to the load.  with a 2:1 setup like this you go up the 
> 
> > > tower, down to
> > > the moving pulley, and then back up to the top... so you only 
> have 
> > > one extra
> > > length going up the tower... each increment in mechanical 
> advantage 
> > > adds one
> > > more length equal to the max lift height to the length of rope 
> > > needed.  so a 3:1
> > > advantage only needs 2x the rope as the 1:1 normal use of the 
> gin 
> > > pole.
> > > 
> > > "Guy Olinger, K2AV" wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > See other post on how advantage achieved.
> > > > 
> > > > >       This is NOT how a gin pole is configured.
> > > > 
> > > > A gin pole is just a device to give an attachment opportunity 
> high 
> > > enough above already 
> > > >accomplished structure to allow fixing various lifting devices 
> to 
> > > control both vertical and 
> > > >horizontal forces on the next section for easy attachment. It 
> > > doesn't imply any particular lifting 
> > > >arrangement, though some may be manufactured with a particular 
> > > device integral.
> > > > 
> > > > Other than a single pulley, the top hook of a 4:1 block and 
> tackle 
> > > setup is another device that can 
> > > >be attached to the top of a gin pole. I've seen an electric 
> winch 
> > > fitted to a gin pole.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > David Robbins K1TTT
> > > e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
> > > web: http://www.k1ttt.net
> > > AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net
> > 
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> > Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
> > 
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this 
> summer? Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting 
> towers - up to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadi
>     o.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> > 
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> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Fri Jun 15 01:45:27 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:45:27 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Gin Pole and Rope Economy
Message-ID: <20.17e78958.285ab4a7@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/14/01 4:50:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, n4kg@juno.com 
writes:

> What is the rated lifting capacity of the Rohn Gin Pole?

    It's rated to handle 25G and 45G - that's it. Since a 45G section weighs 
70 pounds, it's rated at 140 pounds safe working load.

>  Another idea would be to use the Rohn Gin Pole to raise
>  and install (either inside the tower or strapped to the outside)
>  a long thick wall aluminum mast with an attached Block
>  and Tackle.  Then use this heavier duty mast to raise the
>  heavy steel mast.

    My suggested way to haul up heavy loads and masts is to have a second, 
more robust ginpole. The one I use is the WB0W version. The leg fixture is 
very heavy and stout and will even handle 55G which the Rohn will not. Then I 
use a 15-foot aluminum tube (2" 6061 and 1/4" wall) for the ginpole mast. 
It'll handle big masts and big loads that the Rohn can't. 
>  
>  The BEST idea is to install the heavy mast when only
>  20 or 30 ft of tower is assembled, either by walking it up
>  or gin pole or gin pole on a separate R25 tower 10 ft higher,
>  strapped alongside the BIG tower going up.
>  
>  The scariest thing I ever did on a tower was install a 20 ft
>  1/4 inch wall steel mast in a 130 ft tower using a Rohn
>  Gin pole with NO mechanical advantage.  Never again!

    You're right. Around here, we call that a high "pucker factor".

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech

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From w9ol@billnjudy.com  Fri Jun 15 02:04:12 2001
From: w9ol@billnjudy.com (FireBrick)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:04:12 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] gin pole and mechanical advantage
Message-ID: <00a301c0f537$1b5d9c60$0301a8c0@billnjudy>

Maybe I'm missing something.
If you hook a block and tackle to a gin pole, it will make the load easier
to lift.
IT WILL NOT put less strain on the gin pole.
I worked 35 years on rope scaffolds. The one on the side of buildings.
A block and tackle (in the trades they call them 'falls') will take less
muscle but the load is still there.

AND YOU MUST keep you hauling rope as vertical as possible.
I'm sure you guys knew all this, I just must have missed something in the
thread.


------------------------------------------------------------
A failure will not appear till a unit has passed final inspection.
------------------------------------------------------------

Bill H. in Chicagoland
w9ol@billnjudy.com



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From eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com  Fri Jun 15 02:29:03 2001
From: eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com (Eugene Jensen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:29:03 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
In-Reply-To: <NCBBIPEKMKEIENBFHFHJGEAMECAA.w9re@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLGNBKLCJJFDFMEINCEIACDAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>

Its called electrical cleaner and it is made by CRC and you should check
with any of your area electric suppliers who service the trade.  There are
other manufacturers of the same material.  Basically, you should turn the
motor upside down and spray allowing the liquid to cover the windings and
then drip back out.  It will evaporate leaving no residue behind.  73's
Gene K2QWD

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Mike Wetzel
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 11:58 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor


I have a prop pitch motor that has had oil drop in from the gear housing
(not mine I just got this prop pitch). Does anybody have any suggestions on
what to soak the stator windings (with housing) in to remove the oil (or
other method) but not harm the stator winding and insulation?  Right now I
can't remove the stator windings from the housing.

Mike W9RE


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From k4bet@bellsouth.net  Fri Jun 15 02:24:45 2001
From: k4bet@bellsouth.net (Paul McInnish - K4BET)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:24:45 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna Parts & Tower Wanted
Message-ID: <011a01c0f539$f6270ff0$6401a8c0@PawPawsPC>

Posting this for a friend... PLEASE, all responses to go to Rick, KD4RFK,
rpatchin@bellsouth.net or rpatchin@msn.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rick has a Hy-Gain TH2 MK3 - 3 element beam and needs the following:

Driven Element to Boom Bracket #14, part #165920
Element to Boom Brackets #13, part #165919

Also looking for 40-50 foot tower... advise type (guyed, self supporting,
crank-up, etc.); manufacturer name, catalog number, condition, age, rust,
mounting kit with it?, etc.  If you have a JPEG picture, send it!  Give
location of tower if standing or on the ground ready to pick-up.

To repeat... Posting this for a friend... PLEASE, all responses to go to
Rick, KD4RFK, rpatchin@bellsouth.net or rpatchin@msn.com

Tnx & best 73,

Paul - K4BET



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From kk9a@arrl.net  Fri Jun 15 02:33:45 2001
From: kk9a@arrl.net (kk9a@arrl.net)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:33:45 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] DX  Engineering 20DX-6 SWR
Message-ID: <001701c0f53b$3b9a08c0$bc5d70d1@kk9a>

I have two DX Engineering 20DX-6 antennas.  Both of them are mounted in the
clear, over a wavelength high and have the same poor SWR pattern.  They were
built using the recommended settings and the lowest SWR is around 14.350MHz.
The worst spot is 14.150MHz where it's 2.1:1 and then it drops a little
going into the CW part of the band.  I know I have to lengthen the DE (maybe
a few inches) and possibly the 1st Dir.  Does anyone have any experience
with this antenna and already know what adjustments to make to bring the
resonance lower in the band?  This information could save me a lot of trips
up and down the tower.

73,
John



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From w5kp@swbell.net  Fri Jun 15 03:26:27 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:26:27 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
References: <NDBBLGNBKLCJJFDFMEINCEIACDAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <011101c0f542$95bfde40$f5d9da40@jkdesktop>

Thought I'd throw out that most gun shops carry Birchwood Casey "Gun
Scrubber" in tall pressurized cans, for degreasing firearms mechanisms. It's
actually trichlorethane in a spray can. Fast, cheap, removes ALL oil and
gunk (even from the metal pores), leaves zero residue, won't hurt most
things (well, maybe some plastics, it fogged the hell out of a plastic front
panel window on a piece of test equipment of mine), but DON'T breathe it or
use it inside. Fumes might fry your brain. If you use it on bare steel it
will so thoroughly clean the steel it will begin to rust almost immediately,
so it must be followed with a protective coat of something if that's a
possible problem. Gunsmiths also use it for final degreasing prior to
blueing.
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: Eugene Jensen <eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor


> Its called electrical cleaner and it is made by CRC and you should check
> with any of your area electric suppliers who service the trade.  There are
> other manufacturers of the same material.  Basically, you should turn the
> motor upside down and spray allowing the liquid to cover the windings and
> then drip back out.  It will evaporate leaving no residue behind.  73's
> Gene K2QWD
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Mike Wetzel
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 11:58 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
>
>
> I have a prop pitch motor that has had oil drop in from the gear housing
> (not mine I just got this prop pitch). Does anybody have any suggestions
on
> what to soak the stator windings (with housing) in to remove the oil (or
> other method) but not harm the stator winding and insulation?  Right now I
> can't remove the stator windings from the housing.
>
> Mike W9RE
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>


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From n2mg@contesting.com  Fri Jun 15 04:07:02 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 14 Jun 2001 20:07:02 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
Message-ID: <20010615030702.24057.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>

On Thu, 14 June 2001, n4kg@juno.com wrote:

> ...and the argument proposed by some here that a 
> mechanical  advantage between the puller and a 
> standard single pulley on the gin pole provides a 
> load readuction for the gin pole is  
> FALSE. 

I don't recall reading anything in which the author advocated arranging the mechanical advantage between the worker and the ginpole.  

I don't see why anyone would *want* to set it up this way - the workers gets an advantage, but the ginpole does not.  Putting the mechanical advantage between the ginpole and the load is where it belongs - both the worker AND the ginpole "gain".

73 Mike N2MG

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 

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From kb7ww@uswest.net  Fri Jun 15 04:23:48 2001
From: kb7ww@uswest.net (KB7WW Art Moe)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:23:48 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole for 20 foot sections
References: <20010615030702.24057.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <3B297FC4.444DDD7F@uswest.net>



Mike Gilmer - N2MG wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 14 June 2001, n4kg@juno.com wrote:
> 
> > ...and the argument proposed by some here that a
> > mechanical  advantage between the puller and a
> > standard single pulley on the gin pole provides a
> > load readuction for the gin pole is
> > FALSE.
> 
> I don't recall reading anything in which the author advocated arranging the mechanical advantage between the worker and the ginpole.
> 
> I don't see why anyone would *want* to set it up this way - the workers gets an advantage, but the ginpole does not.  Putting the mechanical advantage between the ginpole and the load is where it belongs - both the worker AND the ginpole "gain".
> 
> 73 Mike N2MG
> 


Where is the advantage for the gin pole???????  If the section weighs a hundred
pounds, I don't care how many pulleys you use there is still a hundred pounds 
on the gin pole.......... It will take less pull to raise because of the 
mechanical advantage, but there is still 100 lb on the gin pole....

Art

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From kb9mci@qsl.net  Fri Jun 15 00:00:06 2001
From: kb9mci@qsl.net (Bryan Fields)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:00:06 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
In-Reply-To: <011101c0f542$95bfde40$f5d9da40@jkdesktop>
References: <NDBBLGNBKLCJJFDFMEINCEIACDAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com> <011101c0f542$95bfde40$f5d9da40@jkdesktop>
Message-ID: <01061418000601.00693@kb9mci.sytes.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 14 June 2001 21:26, you wrote:
> Thought I'd throw out that most gun shops carry Birchwood Casey "Gun
> Scrubber" in tall pressurized cans, for degreasing firearms mechanisms.
> It's actually trichlorethane in a spray can. 

If memory serves, isn't trichlorethane Freon-113.  If so it is probaly not 
avaliable anymore, but i could be wrong. 


- -- 
Bryan Fields, KB9MCI
____________________
Of all the words of witch's doom
There's none so bad as which and whom.
The man who kills both which and whom
Will be enshrined in our Who's Whom.
		-- Fletcher Knebel

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Version: GnuPG v1.0.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

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BbJedyhxIKEQRbJyiNvaHhg=
=MwMP
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From n4kg@juno.com  Fri Jun 15 05:58:18 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:58:18 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Ginpole Debate Summary
Message-ID: <20010614.230535.-177617.2.N4KG@juno.com>

For those who got lost in the confusion,
the Load on the Gin Pole is the sum of the 
LOAD on one side and the PULL on the other.

When there is a single pulley, the load on the
Gin Pole is 2X the LOAD plus friction loss.
(The downward tension in the Pull rope equals
the downward tension in the Load rope + friction).

When a Block and Tackle is between the Gin Pole
and Load, the load on the Gin pole is the Load
plus the Load divided by the mechanical advantage
(i.e. the Pull force).  The B&T lowers to total load
on the Gin Pole for THIS configuration.  For a
mechanical advantage of 2:1, the load on the
gin pole is 1 + 1/2 = 1.5X load plus friction.

When a block and tackle is between the Puller
and the Gin Pole rope (single pulley), the puller
gets a benefit from the block and tackle, but the
load on the Gin Pole is the same as if no B&T
were used, i.e. 2X the Load plus friction losses.

I hope we can move on to another thread now :-)

At least this was an interesting respite from
heart valve research / selection / surgery...

Tom  N4KG


On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 KB7WW Art Moe <kb7ww@uswest.net> writes:
> 
> 
> Mike Gilmer - N2MG wrote:
> > 
> > On Thu, 14 June 2001, n4kg@juno.com wrote:
> > 
> > > ...and the argument proposed by some here that a
> > > mechanical  advantage between the puller and a
> > > standard single pulley on the gin pole provides a
> > > load readuction for the gin pole is
> > > FALSE.
> > 
> > I don't recall reading anything in which the author advocated 
> arranging the mechanical advantage between the worker and the 
> ginpole.
> > 
> > I don't see why anyone would *want* to set it up this way - the 
> workers gets an advantage, but the ginpole does not.  Putting the 
> mechanical advantage between the ginpole and the load is where it 
> belongs - both the worker AND the ginpole "gain".
> > 
> > 73 Mike N2MG
> > 
> 
> 
> Where is the advantage for the gin pole???????  If the section 
> weighs a hundred
> pounds, I don't care how many pulleys you use there is still a 
> hundred pounds 
> on the gin pole.......... It will take less pull to raise because of 
> the 
> mechanical advantage, but there is still 100 lb on the gin pole....
> 
> Art
> 

________________________________________________________________
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From clive@gm3poi.prestel.co.uk  Fri Jun 15 09:31:38 2001
From: clive@gm3poi.prestel.co.uk (Clive GM3POI)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:31:38 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Vertical top-loading questions
References: <20010613185928.68328.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <010d01c0f576$0723b2e0$9de9b094@2xjd30j>

Bill,
Sorry for the slight delay re your question, I have been working on my top
loaded 80m 4SQ. In my array I played around on the PC with using 2
horizontal loading wires held up by double pulley blocks on each adjacent
vertical. This keeps the base Z as high as possible and can easily be
tested. Just remove all your top whips and replace on one tower only two top
loading wires held up by the tower on each of its sides. Get it resonant
where you want it and then repeat it around the Square. I have used SS wire
with crimped SS eyes on each wire for the loading. They are unlikely to
break and from experience are the best material for durable top loading.
If you heard my 80m signal last winter that was just one top loaded vertical
40ft with SS loading and a big ground system.
73 Clive GM3POI
----- Original Message -----
From: "BILL STRAW" <wb0o@yahoo.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 6:59 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Vertical top-loading questions


> A quick question:
>
> I have an elevated 80M 4-square made of Rohn 25. There
> is 15' of tower, then an insulator, then 50' of tower,
> then a 20' whip made of aluminum tubing. Every winter
> one or more of the whips break off (even using triple
> wall tubing). This year 3 broke off. I have to do
> something:
>
> 1) Extend each vertical with 1 or 2 more sections of
>    tower. This costs $. I have the tower, but the
>    Phillstran, and Grips X 4 towers adds up quick.
> 2) Take the whips off and top load each tower with a
>    piece of wire strung to the top of another tower.
>    Thus I would have 4 inverted-L's, but the top
>    horizontal portion would be exactly horizontal.
>
> Would #2 alter the gain or pattern much? I think it
> would decrease the bandwith, but this antenna is used
> mainly on CW.
>
> Thanks for any opinions.
> Bill, WB0O in North Dakota
>
>
>
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From w5kp@swbell.net  Fri Jun 15 12:07:13 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 06:07:13 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
References: <NDBBLGNBKLCJJFDFMEINCEIACDAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>
 <011101c0f542$95bfde40$f5d9da40@jkdesktop>
 <01061418000601.00693@kb9mci.sytes.net>
Message-ID: <002901c0f58b$5587db40$e521c1cf@jkdesktop>

Could be. 5 or 6 years ago, I'm pretty sure it was marked "1,1,1
Trichlorethane" on the can, but the new cans don't say what's in it.
Hmmm....  Up till a couple of years ago, you could buy 1,1,1 Trichloroethane
in cans at the paint stores, but not sure it's still available. I bought a
couple of extra cans of Gun Scrubber several months ago for my shop. Maybe
I'd best get down there and pick up another several "backup" cans while
there's still stock in the pipeline. It's been a great timesaver in my shop,
not to mention being the best gun degreaser/degunker I've ever used. Stinks
like hell until it's evaporated (but not as bad as Tolulene), not to mention
likely bad for your lungs/brain, so should only be used outside for sure.
Sorry, Sierra Club.
73, Jerry

----- Original Message -----
From: Bryan Fields <kb9mci@qsl.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Thursday 14 June 2001 21:26, you wrote:
> > Thought I'd throw out that most gun shops carry Birchwood Casey "Gun
> > Scrubber" in tall pressurized cans, for degreasing firearms mechanisms.
> > It's actually trichlorethane in a spray can.
>
> If memory serves, isn't trichlorethane Freon-113.  If so it is probaly not
> avaliable anymore, but i could be wrong.
>
>
> - --
> Bryan Fields, KB9MCI
> ____________________
> Of all the words of witch's doom
> There's none so bad as which and whom.
> The man who kills both which and whom
> Will be enshrined in our Who's Whom.
> -- Fletcher Knebel
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.0.2 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
>
> iD8DBQE7KUH21n1EIlKF06ARAj6wAJ4ne5C1LZdRSj7q+rYjqK81PzX69ACgzhAp
> BbJedyhxIKEQRbJyiNvaHhg=
> =MwMP
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
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From w5kp@swbell.net  Fri Jun 15 12:30:26 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 06:30:26 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Making progress on 45G
Message-ID: <005b01c0f58e$936058e0$e521c1cf@jkdesktop>

Bought two more Klein Haven grips yesterday, and two more comealongs. Hell,
it's only money. At least my friends around here that put up future guyed
towers won't have to buy them. Now if I can locate a contractor willing to
pound some holes in my sandrock out here, I might actually show some
physical vs. mental progress for a change. At least I'm well versed in
ginpole loading now! Also thanks to the info on this list, the mast will go
in early, with the first section or two of tower. I'll worry about how to
get it to the top later, along with worrying about whether I ought to have a
second rotor shelf near the top. Thanks for all the advice and help so far,
gentlemen.
73, Jerry W5KP



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From abowen@nettally.com  Fri Jun 15 13:47:11 2001
From: abowen@nettally.com (ABowenN4OO)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:47:11 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] MFJ 259B vs Autek?, Correction
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010615082811.00ae02d0@mail.nettally.com>

N4OO said:

>If I could only own one, I suppose it would be the MFJ. I would hate 
>giving up the ability to measure L, C and coax loss, however.
===================================
I said some things in my earlier posting that were not true. My posting 
should have noted that my experience was with the original 259 not the B 
model.

A review of the instruction book for the B model describes how to measure 
C, L and a number of  properties of coaxial transmission lines. The B model 
has a much wider range of measurement options than the original.

The B model does use more batteries and requires more current. Battery life 
is somewhat shorter, but I do not have a good estimate. The operating self 
check procedure does include a battery voltage measurement so you have an 
idea of the battery condition. If you are making a lot remote measurements, 
have some extra AA cells on hand.

Tnx to those who have pointed out my obvious failure to read the instructions.

INK N4OO




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From jirka@jimaz.cz  Fri Jun 15 14:21:52 2001
From: jirka@jimaz.cz (Jiri Sanda)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:21:52 +0200
Subject: [TowerTalk] MFJ 259B vs Autek?, Correction
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010615082811.00ae02d0@mail.nettally.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBKAIBCJDDIHOEIBGDIEBJEFAA.jirka@jimaz.cz>

Hi,

1.go out and buy some NiCd or NiMh AA cells and all you need is to charge
the unit. The cost in some not very long period of time will be lover. It
will last charged about 2 hours. The tiny 9V battery in the AUTEK will never
dream of similar time.
2.There is significant difference in MFJ259 259B and 269 * do not forget it.
They look the same but are not  !


73 !

Jiri
OK1RI

P.S. Here it looks I am too much in favor of MFJ - I just want to give them
credit for a very good product. On the other side most of they tuners I had
chance to meet are VERY BAD.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of ABowenN4OO
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 2:47 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] MFJ 259B vs Autek?, Correction


N4OO said:

>If I could only own one, I suppose it would be the MFJ. I would hate
>giving up the ability to measure L, C and coax loss, however.
===================================
I said some things in my earlier posting that were not true. My posting
should have noted that my experience was with the original 259 not the B
model.

A review of the instruction book for the B model describes how to measure
C, L and a number of  properties of coaxial transmission lines. The B model
has a much wider range of measurement options than the original.

The B model does use more batteries and requires more current. Battery life
is somewhat shorter, but I do not have a good estimate. The operating self
check procedure does include a battery voltage measurement so you have an
idea of the battery condition. If you are making a lot remote measurements,
have some extra AA cells on hand.

Tnx to those who have pointed out my obvious failure to read the
instructions.

INK N4OO




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From n1lo@hotmail.com  Fri Jun 15 15:03:29 2001
From: n1lo@hotmail.com (Mark .)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:03:29 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Temporary attachment devices for tensioning guys
Message-ID: <F1823G9yTWpRnzh0Cpg0000c0b8@hotmail.com>

Tom wrote:

<< ...snip ... I use old Big Grips wrapped part way for my wire pullers.
Cheap and easy. Tom  N4KG >>

Great tip, Tom. This is exactly what I have done. I salvaged a bunch of 
grips from an old tower removal job I helped with. I put a band of colored 
tape on them so they would never be confused with new ones. Three wraps, 
leaving the tails free, provides more than enough grip for pretensioning.
For pretensioning, I have found that you can just put a hammer handle or 
heavy stick through the loop of the temporary grip on the guy cable and just 
lean back at the steepest angle you can make to apply the tension. If you 
pull directly toward, and in front of, the final anchor position, another 
person can grab the tail of the guy you are tensioning, make it up in the 
permanent grip to the turnbuckle, and retain nearly all the pretension.
Final adjustments to plumb the tower can be made with the turnbuckles as you 
apply full guy tension.

For a temporary attachment to an anchor rod, I use an single, old Rohn mast 
clamp that I picked up at a hamfest for $1! For their intended use, two mast 
clamps let you clamp one vertical mast (or vertical antenna base) to another 
vertical member. The bolts were bent a little and there was paint on it, but 
so what? I cut of the excess bolt length to save some weight and 
straightened the bolts.
I clamp one set of saddles together at the bolt heads to form a place to 
hook the come-along. I remove the outer saddle plate from the other end and 
clamp this end to the anchor rod, providing enough side standoff that there 
is plenty of clearance to rig an equalizer plate assembly.

For those that don't know what a mast clamp is, imagine two long bolts with 
2 sets of formed saddles, and intermediate nuts in between the saddles. 
There is a picture of one on the last page of Rohn's online brochure (PDF 
format) at:
http://www.rohnnet.com/rohnnet2001/catalog/brochures/GTRTPbrochure1.pdf

Although there is a nice, online Rohn catalog at:

http://www.rohnnet.com/rohnnet2001/catalog/Menu/main.html  ,

I could not find this clamp assembly in it, and I don't have my paper 
catalog handy. Anyone know the part number for this clamp?

--...MARK_N1LO...--

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From ford@cmgate.com  Fri Jun 15 15:22:04 2001
From: ford@cmgate.com (Ford Peterson)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:22:04 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Sinking Tower...
Message-ID: <003a01c0f5a6$8dd819e0$c5ed83d1@office>

I have a 68' Rohn Tiltover and mast at 80'.  Each year, (three years now)
the guys appear to lose their tension.  I notice it in the spring after the
thaw (Minnesota).

I control the turnbuckles so they don't move by threading guy material
through the loops so I don't think it is the steel guys twisting themselves
loose.

Now I am considering the base.  It is to spec according to the prints--2' x
2' x 3'.  The soil is quite loamy.  In fact, each spring the base of the
tower sits in a few inches of water for a few weeks.  When I dug the hole,
the soil was very black and full of material as if in a very old swamp.  Is
it possible that the weight of the tower and the tension on the guys (375# -
400# x 4 top and 4 middle guys) plus the viscous nature of the soil is
allowing it to sink?  After all, 3/16" of sinking would spread to release
all the tension on the guys, which is what I am experiencing.

More important, if it is sinking, what now?????

Ford-N0FP
ford@cmgate.com



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From wklinn@hotmail.com  Fri Jun 15 15:24:45 2001
From: wklinn@hotmail.com (Wally Klinger)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:24:45
Subject: [TowerTalk] tower climbing belt for sale
Message-ID: <F96d2VqKwRPQIWDO3hR000037ce@hotmail.com>

I am sorry if this post is not appropriate for the list, but...
I have for sale an almost new in the box KLEIN model 5480NCP climbing belt 
for 38-40 inch waist. comes with a BUHRKE 6 foot nylon line with two 
snap-hooks. I bought it about 9 or 10 years ago, used it a few times, and 
put it in the box. I wanted to use it recently and found that it "shrunk" on 
me...go figure!!!
:)
eMail me directly.....

Wklinn@hotmail.com

73--Wally Klinger W9BEA
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From n4kg@juno.com  Fri Jun 15 16:48:13 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:48:13 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Sinking Tower...
Message-ID: <20010615.100341.-102945.4.N4KG@juno.com>

It's very possible the tower is sinking when your ground gets wet
and soft.  Remember, if you have 400 lbs of tension in each guy,
the lower set applies 200 lb of downward pressure PER GUY and
the upper set applies close to 300 lb of downward pressure per guy
for a total of approximately 1500 lbs in addition to the weight of
the tower, rotor, mast, and antennas (500 lbs or so) for a total
base load of around 2000 lbs.

I suppose you could place some pressure treated 4X4 or angle
iron around the base attached to the tower legs to give you
more surface area.

73 / GL,  Tom  N4KG

On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:22:04 -0500 "Ford Peterson" <ford@cmgate.com>
writes:
> I have a 68' Rohn Tiltover and mast at 80'.  Each year, (three years 
> now)
> the guys appear to lose their tension.  I notice it in the spring 
> after the
> thaw (Minnesota).
> 
> I control the turnbuckles so they don't move by threading guy 
> material
> through the loops so I don't think it is the steel guys twisting 
> themselves
> loose.
> 
> Now I am considering the base.  It is to spec according to the 
> prints--2' x
> 2' x 3'.  The soil is quite loamy.  In fact, each spring the base of 
> the
> tower sits in a few inches of water for a few weeks.  When I dug the 
> hole,
> the soil was very black and full of material as if in a very old 
> swamp.  Is
> it possible that the weight of the tower and the tension on the guys 
> (375# -
> 400# x 4 top and 4 middle guys) plus the viscous nature of the soil 
> is
> allowing it to sink?  After all, 3/16" of sinking would spread to 
> release
> all the tension on the guys, which is what I am experiencing.
> 
> More important, if it is sinking, what now?????
> 
> Ford-N0FP
> ford@cmgate.com
> 
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
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> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
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From tom_g@pacbell.net  Fri Jun 15 20:09:53 2001
From: tom_g@pacbell.net (Thomas A. Gallagher)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:09:53 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] National Electrical Code
Message-ID: <BMEOLDCNFKOOEOEMPNLMIEOHCAAA.tom_g@pacbell.net>

Does anyone have any practical experience in complying with the NEC
(particularly as adopted into the 1998 California Electrical Code).
Sections 810-51 through 58 of the Calif. code pertain specifically to
amateur antenna systems and require compliance with certain other code
sections.  The 2001 ARRL Handbook has a section on the NEC, but seems to
contain some errors.  I would be happy to enlist the aid of a professional
engineer if someone could point me in the direction of one with tower and
feedline experience NEC experience.

Tom Gallagher, N6RA
San Francisco
tom_g@pacbell.net


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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Fri Jun 15 17:51:45 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:51:45 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Gin Pole and Rope Economy
References: <3B29238F.59070513@easystreet.com> <3B291CFD.B111113B@berkshire.net>
Message-ID: <3B2A3D21.BC63456F@easystreet.com>

This is a very good way to do it most cases.  I have a 115 foot tower that is
composed of 77 feet of one kind of tower (Rohn JJ)  and 38 feet of a smaller kind
(Rohn 25).  The splice between types is at the 77 foot level and it will not permit
a mast to pass by it inside the tower so I was stuck with going over the top the the
18 1/2 foot mast in this case.

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

David Robbins wrote:

> Stan or Patricia Griffiths wrote:
> >
> > Say you are raising a 200 pound mast up to the top of a 100
> > foot tower.
>
> the easiest way to raise a 200# mast to the top of a tower is to put it inside
> the tower when you stand up the first couple sections.  then you can lift it
> inside the tower with any simple arrangement of pulleys hooked to the tower.
> you also avoid that awkward moment when you have the mast off at an angle at the
> very top of the gin pole trying to get it in the hole straight enough to slide
> down.
>
> --
> David Robbins K1TTT
> e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
> web: http://www.k1ttt.net
> AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net




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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Fri Jun 15 18:46:46 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:46:46 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Gin Pole and Rope Economy
References: <NFBBKNCBKLPFKNLGHFKOMEKLCEAA.wa9pam@arrl.net>
Message-ID: <3B2A4A06.4086F573@easystreet.com>

Hi Ron,

I think you meant for this post to go to the whole reflector and not just me.
Anyway, I have a comment and will send your original and my comment to the
entire reflector.

I think your comments are very well put.  I would certianly agree that more
clubs ought to get into the act of investing in some of the more expensive tools
for putting up towers and share them among members.

I think the key word in your post is "capstan winch" which, if I understand what
you are talking about, is really a "power assisted" arrangement using a capstan
but still allowing the user to feel if anything gets "hung up" so you don't
apply so much pull that things break and crash.  Some really nasty accidents
have occurred using powered winches without any clutch arrangement to allow
slippage if something hangs up or using a vehicle on the pull rope.  I simply
will NOT work on a tower where a vehicle or a powered winch without an
adjustable clutch is used to pull things up the tower.  I am convinced that is
why I am still here to talk about it . . .

I apologize if you did not intend for your message to go to all of towertalk,
but I thought it had some valuable information in it we could all benefit from .
. .

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

Ronald Anderson wrote:

> Hi folks:
> I do not understand why you are buying so much rope.  #1.  Build yourself a
> good gin pole.  #2  find yourself a good capstan winch, I just bought a 50:1
> gear box which will take a 3/4 HP electric motor.  Mount it on flat piece of
> steel, weld on a square piece of tubing that is the same size as a trailer
> hitch, put it in the trailer hitch, put a "good" pulley at the bottom of the
> tower, then a good gin pole at the top.  All you need is to use that thing
> on your shoulders and you don't have to spend a lot of money.  That 3/4 HP
> will lift more weight that the tower will ever handle.  Where are the clubs
> in this?
> if everyone would pitch in and a little money in you could have a gin pole,
> capstan, and ropes for very little money and everyone can use it.  When new
> or outside members want to use it charge them 5-10 bucks and help them get
> the tower up.  If you go and look at the tower on my web page both of them
> you will see fellow hams around and helping and those that can not
> help work as gophers.  At my place one of them cooked the brats, hamburgers,
> and hotdogs while the rest of use worked on the tower, someone tagged it,
> others hooked it up, others carried the antennas from he front yard to the
> back.   Anyway that's my 2 cents worth.  :-)
> At least it is a good discussion for a change.....
>
> Ron Anderson - WA9PAM
> http://webpages.charter.net/ronald




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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Fri Jun 15 18:30:06 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:30:06 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
References: <NDBBLGNBKLCJJFDFMEINCEIACDAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com> <011101c0f542$95bfde40$f5d9da40@jkdesktop> <01061418000601.00693@kb9mci.sytes.net>
Message-ID: <3B2A461E.DB4B1BA1@easystreet.com>

Are you sure you guys aren't talking about "trichoroethylene"?  I use that stuff to
degrease oscilloscope fan motors all the time when I rebuild them as part of the old
scope restoration process.  It is not as volatile as the freons I have seen and you can
still get it in jugs at a chemical supply house.  Many freons boil at atmospheric
pressures and room temperatures.  Trichloroethylene does not, but it does evaporate
rather quickly and you really need to keep the container capped.  You also need to use
it in a well ventilated area.  I have never seen it in a spray can.  You have sign a
paper saying you are aware of the dangers of using this chemincal when you buy it.

We could be talking about different chemicals here.  I have never heard of
"trichlorethane" but then there are lots of chemicals I have never heard of . . .

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

Bryan Fields wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Thursday 14 June 2001 21:26, you wrote:
> > Thought I'd throw out that most gun shops carry Birchwood Casey "Gun
> > Scrubber" in tall pressurized cans, for degreasing firearms mechanisms.
> > It's actually trichlorethane in a spray can.
>
> If memory serves, isn't trichlorethane Freon-113.  If so it is probaly not
> avaliable anymore, but i could be wrong.
>
> - --
> Bryan Fields, KB9MCI
> ____________________
> Of all the words of witch's doom
> There's none so bad as which and whom.
> The man who kills both which and whom
> Will be enshrined in our Who's Whom.
>                 -- Fletcher Knebel
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.0.2 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
>
> iD8DBQE7KUH21n1EIlKF06ARAj6wAJ4ne5C1LZdRSj7q+rYjqK81PzX69ACgzhAp
> BbJedyhxIKEQRbJyiNvaHhg=
> =MwMP
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Fri Jun 15 19:20:12 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:20:12 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] gin pole and mechanical advantage
References: <00a301c0f537$1b5d9c60$0301a8c0@billnjudy>
Message-ID: <3B2A51DC.DF07602E@easystreet.com>

Hi Bill,

Well . . . apparently, in spite of your 35 years in the busness, you are missing
something because a properly rigged block and tackle WILL reduce the load on a gin pole
compared to using a single block at the top.  At least, if you assume there is no
reduction in load by using a block and tackle, you are erring in the safe direction.

Like I said in an earlier post, you need to conduct the experiment and make the
measurements.  Obviously, you have not done that . . .

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

FireBrick wrote:

> Maybe I'm missing something.
> If you hook a block and tackle to a gin pole, it will make the load easier
> to lift.
> IT WILL NOT put less strain on the gin pole.
> I worked 35 years on rope scaffolds. The one on the side of buildings.
> A block and tackle (in the trades they call them 'falls') will take less
> muscle but the load is still there.
>
> AND YOU MUST keep you hauling rope as vertical as possible.
> I'm sure you guys knew all this, I just must have missed something in the
> thread.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> A failure will not appear till a unit has passed final inspection.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bill H. in Chicagoland
> w9ol@billnjudy.com




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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Fri Jun 15 20:19:05 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:19:05 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Gin Pole Loading
Message-ID: <3B2A5FA9.9CC17F8D@easystreet.com>

Hey Guys,

Kurt, K7NV, just sent me an email where he discusses
sideloading on a gin pole and the fact that right at the
top, when you are just setting the mast into the bearing,
the gin pole will be significantly sideloaded.  There is
just no way to totally avoid this since the gin pole pulleys
are not right directly above the bearing hole, but offset
from the tower center.  This is where a gin pole with a
"swivelling rooster head" could make all the difference in
the world.

What is a "swiveling rooster head"?  Well, the "rooster
head" is that part right at the top of the gin pole mast
where the pulleys are located.  Really BIG gin poles like
are used on commercial broadcast towers have their top pully
mounted on a short arm that can be swung over the top of the
tower which allows the workers to keep the pull ropes and
load ropes nearly vertical, greatly reducing the sideloading
of the gin pole.  This would really be a great gin pole
feature for us to have for these really scary, tall, heavy
mast jobs.

Please take the time to read Kurt's message because his
point is that you can destroy all of the gains you may have
made by the use of a block and tackle by using techniques
that seriously sideload the gin pole at the last second.

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com




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From k3hx@juno.com  Fri Jun 15 14:39:10 2001
From: k3hx@juno.com (tttt ccccc)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:39:10 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Solvents
Message-ID: <20010615.172634.-424273.2.k3hx@juno.com>


" Tri-clor" can be had as "brake cleaner"  at an auto parts store.  
Spray cans.

Long term exposure to the fumes can be harmful.  Wear gloves, as it will
remove the 

oil from your skin.


An even better degreaser is Xylene.  Available at paint stores.   It is
VERY flamable, use 

outside with great caution.

Peace Be With Thee,

Tim  K3HX


________________________________________________________________
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From eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com  Fri Jun 15 23:26:44 2001
From: eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com (Eugene Jensen)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:26:44 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Solvents
In-Reply-To: <20010615.172634.-424273.2.k3hx@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLGNBKLCJJFDFMEINMEICCDAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>

I think we have kind of got off the path a wee bit, as I believe he would
still like to have the windings left.  Electrical Contact Cleaner will
remove the oil but not harm the Windings. Some of these cleaner's could
attack the vanish on the winding and then they would short out.... 73's Gene
k2qwd

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of tttt ccccc
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 9:39 AM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Solvents



" Tri-clor" can be had as "brake cleaner"  at an auto parts store.
Spray cans.

Long term exposure to the fumes can be harmful.  Wear gloves, as it will
remove the

oil from your skin.


An even better degreaser is Xylene.  Available at paint stores.   It is
VERY flamable, use

outside with great caution.

Peace Be With Thee,

Tim  K3HX


________________________________________________________________
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From thompson@mindspring.com  Fri Jun 15 23:22:40 2001
From: thompson@mindspring.com (David L. Thompson)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:22:40 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Sinking Tower...
References: <20010615.100341.-102945.4.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c0f5e9$b108c160$665a56d1@default>

N4KG is right on the downward thrust on the tower base.  I remember the W0/5
in Louisiana telling me that sinking tower bases is very common in BC and SW
and his tower base sank 2 inches per year.   He was involved with a 1000
foot tower and they put down a pier of
concrete and gravel below the actual base.   I think N4KG's advice and
resetting the guys will suffice for a guyed tower.   On a crank up like I
have there is an adjustment on the base pins (made from 1" universal bolt).
There is 3" of bolt above the concrete base and I have a big wrench made by
Lou Tristao that I use to adjust the level.   A crank up should be as close
to level as possible!  I adjust mine each spring and then adjust the guys
(If you have a guyed crank up).

Dave K4JRB



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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Sat Jun 16 00:04:33 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:04:33 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Sinking Tower...
References: <20010615.100341.-102945.4.N4KG@juno.com> <003b01c0f5e9$b108c160$665a56d1@default>
Message-ID: <3B2A9480.78C394A1@easystreet.com>

Just as a precaution, I would measure the amount of anchor rod above the surface and
check it periodically, just to make sure the anchors aren't slowly pulling out of the
ground.  If the tower can sink, I would be concerned about the long term effect of a
constant pull on an anchor in the same soil.  I may be all wrong here, but it doesn't
cost anything to check it once in awhile . . .

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

David L. Thompson wrote:

> N4KG is right on the downward thrust on the tower base.  I remember the W0/5
> in Louisiana telling me that sinking tower bases is very common in BC and SW
> and his tower base sank 2 inches per year.   He was involved with a 1000
> foot tower and they put down a pier of
> concrete and gravel below the actual base.   I think N4KG's advice and
> resetting the guys will suffice for a guyed tower.   On a crank up like I
> have there is an adjustment on the base pins (made from 1" universal bolt).
> There is 3" of bolt above the concrete base and I have a big wrench made by
> Lou Tristao that I use to adjust the level.   A crank up should be as close
> to level as possible!  I adjust mine each spring and then adjust the guys
> (If you have a guyed crank up).
>
> Dave K4JRB
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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From w5kp@swbell.net  Sat Jun 16 00:31:09 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:31:09 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
References: <NDBBLGNBKLCJJFDFMEINCEIACDAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>
 <011101c0f542$95bfde40$f5d9da40@jkdesktop>
 <01061418000601.00693@kb9mci.sytes.net> <3B2A461E.DB4B1BA1@easystreet.com>
Message-ID: <001101c0f5f3$42ffeae0$300ab8d1@jkdesktop>

Heck Stan, I guess I'm not sure now. Too many "ethanes" and "ethylenes" out
there. See
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts70.html for  1,1,1 Trichloroethane, and
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts19.html for Trichoroethylene.
The stuff we used in the Navy for degreasing, and the label that *used* to
be on "Gun Scrubber" had the "1,1,1" in front of the chemical name, so I'm
guessing it was the first one above. That's also the stuff I bought in
gallon cans from the local paint stores up to a couple of years ago, but I
haven't tried to find it since I discovered Gun Scrubber. Neither one
appears to be particularly good for your health. Now I have a headache, not
from the chemicals, but from too many syllables in all these words.
73, Jerry

----- Original Message -----
From: Stan or Patricia Griffiths <w7ni@easystreet.com>
To: Bryan Fields <kb9mci@qsl.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor


> Are you sure you guys aren't talking about "trichoroethylene"?  I use that
stuff to
> degrease oscilloscope fan motors all the time when I rebuild them as part
of the old
> scope restoration process.  It is not as volatile as the freons I have
seen and you can
> still get it in jugs at a chemical supply house.  Many freons boil at
atmospheric
> pressures and room temperatures.  Trichloroethylene does not, but it does
evaporate
> rather quickly and you really need to keep the container capped.  You also
need to use
> it in a well ventilated area.  I have never seen it in a spray can.  You
have sign a
> paper saying you are aware of the dangers of using this chemincal when you
buy it.
>
> We could be talking about different chemicals here.  I have never heard of
> "trichlorethane" but then there are lots of chemicals I have never heard
of . . .
>
> Stan
> w7ni@easystreet.com
>
> Bryan Fields wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On Thursday 14 June 2001 21:26, you wrote:
> > > Thought I'd throw out that most gun shops carry Birchwood Casey "Gun
> > > Scrubber" in tall pressurized cans, for degreasing firearms
mechanisms.
> > > It's actually trichlorethane in a spray can.
> >
> > If memory serves, isn't trichlorethane Freon-113.  If so it is probaly
not
> > avaliable anymore, but i could be wrong.
> >
> > - --
> > Bryan Fields, KB9MCI
> > ____________________
> > Of all the words of witch's doom
> > There's none so bad as which and whom.
> > The man who kills both which and whom
> > Will be enshrined in our Who's Whom.
> >                 -- Fletcher Knebel
> >
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.0.2 (GNU/Linux)
> > Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
> >
> > iD8DBQE7KUH21n1EIlKF06ARAj6wAJ4ne5C1LZdRSj7q+rYjqK81PzX69ACgzhAp
> > BbJedyhxIKEQRbJyiNvaHhg=
> > =MwMP
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>
>


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From ka4inm@qsl.net  Sat Jun 16 02:23:48 2001
From: ka4inm@qsl.net (Ron KA4INM Youvan)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 01:23:48 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
References: <NDBBLGNBKLCJJFDFMEINCEIACDAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>
 <011101c0f542$95bfde40$f5d9da40@jkdesktop>
 <01061418000601.00693@kb9mci.sytes.net> <3B2A461E.DB4B1BA1@easystreet.com> <001101c0f5f3$42ffeae0$300ab8d1@jkdesktop>
Message-ID: <3B2AB524.A6BB946C@qsl.net>

Hi all:

  I got a 5 year battle with "contact dermatitis" from cleaning 
rosin off of printed circuit boards with 1,1,1 Trichloroethane 
using an old tooth brush.
 
  I recommend that no one get it on themselves, it doesn't seem to hurt 
you as you use it, but in a few years your hand/s will be a mess.
  Also called `tech clean' and `methyl ether' or something like that. 

  73 (= Best Regards) de: Ron ka4inm@qsl.net  SENT Time and Date are UTC
      I upgraded to LINUX, the more I use it, the more I love it.
        It doesn't do everything for you, you must program it.
         Visit my HAM Web SITE at: http://www.qsl.net/ka4inm

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From kk9a@arrl.net  Sat Jun 16 03:07:36 2001
From: kk9a@arrl.net (kk9a@arrl.net)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:07:36 -0500
Subject: Fw: [TowerTalk] DX  Engineering 20DX-6 SWR
Message-ID: <001f01c0f609$1dca2720$415d70d1@kk9a>

I received many direct responses.  Some suggested modeling the antenna, one
volunteered to model it for me, one suggested calling the manufacture (who's
out of business), one suggested a bad balun, and one said he put up the same
antenna and didn't have this problem.  Thanks for all of these responses.  I
now wonder if the problem could be from side mounting the antennas on my
tower.  The tower is Rohn 65 (26" face) and the first director is only
inches away.  Could the close proximity to this large tower cause some
detuning?  I did have to readjust other antennas that were also side mounted
on this tower.

73,
John

-----Original Message-----
From: kk9a@arrl.net
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Sent: 6/14/2001 8:33 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] DX  Engineering 20DX-6 SWR

I have two DX Engineering 20DX-6 antennas.  Both of them are mounted in the
clear, over a wavelength high and have the same poor SWR pattern.  They were
built using the recommended settings and the lowest SWR is around14.350MHz.
The worst spot is 14.150MHz where it's 2.1:1 and then it drops a little
going into the CW part of the band.  I know I have to lengthen the DE
(maybe a few inches) and possibly the 1st Dir.  Does anyone have any
experience
with this antenna and already know what adjustments to make to bring the
resonance lower in the band?  This information could save me a lot of
trips up and down the tower.

73,
John



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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Sat Jun 16 03:31:26 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 22:31:26 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Trylon Tower update #2
Message-ID: <000f01c0f60c$8d061380$a976fc3f@spelunk.sueno>

TT:

     I gave up on digging the hole by hand!  (I can hear the I told you so's
now.)  Paid a fellow around here to come by this afternoon.  He made quick
work of getting down to the proper depth, but he couldn't finesse the bucket
enough to dig the undercut at the bottom of the hole.  Down I went (with
proper shoring, of course) and spent about an hour with the digging bar
chopping through the clay and scooping shovels full into his bucket for
removal.

     Next step is setting the form for the cap and flattening out the bottom
of the hole to make it the same depth below the top of the form.  I plan to
place a 2X4 across the top of the form and measure depth of the hole below
the 2X4 at one-foot intervals across the opening in both directions, then
correcting for high or low spots by digging or filling in where needed.
(Anybody have an easier way to check for level and flatness of the bottom?)

     Also, thanks to Brian N8WRL, I was able to bend the #6 rebar pretty
easily with a couple pieces of water pipe.  (The bends at the bottoms of
each vertical element of the rebar cage angle outward to fit into the
undercut.)  I wedged one short piece of black iron pipe in the backhoe's
outrigger footpad, angled it upward, and inserted the rebar into it to a
depth of 9 inches (where I wanted the bend).  I placed a four-foot long
piece of pipe over the other end of the rebar down to within two inches of
the shorter pipe.   I slowly pulled down on the long pipe until I got the
angle I wanted.  The effort required to bend the pipe was just enough to
offer resistance so I didn't overshoot the desired angle.  Took me 20
minutes or so to bend 24 pieces.

     Remaining work is placing the rebar cage, assembling the bottom tower
section and stub legs, placing and leveling in the hole and calling for
county inspector.   Then comes the fun - concrete truck!  But that's a hole
other story.

     Stay tuned.


73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
P.S.  I forgot how much a little backhoe can wreck a lawn!  I'll need a bit
of grass of seed in the fall.


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From K4BEV@aol.com  Sat Jun 16 04:23:07 2001
From: K4BEV@aol.com (K4BEV@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:23:07 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
Message-ID: <74.bd2521b.285c2b1b@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/15/01 20:24:20 Central Daylight Time, ka4inm@qsl.net 
writes:

<<   I recommend that no one get it on themselves, it doesn't seem to hurt 
you as you use it, but in a few years your hand/s will be a mess. >>

I had used this kind of stuff for years (PCB transformer oils too) with no 
ill effect -- until once too often.  Please keep in mind that the next time 
may be one time too many.
Believe it == You do NOT want the problems that these chemicals can cause!

DO NOT breathe the stuff -- wear protective clothing and a splash shield. 
Have GOOD ventilation! Just being outside isn't enough -- use a fan too.

It's no fun knowing that you should know your phone number (etc.) but have no 
idea what it is ---- And it could be worse - Much worse.

GL - Don K4BEV

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From kh7m@hsa-kauai.net  Sat Jun 16 04:53:51 2001
From: kh7m@hsa-kauai.net (Jim Reid)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:53:51 -1000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
References: <74.bd2521b.285c2b1b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001401c0f617$f7ca87e0$3f7ad818@gw400>


> Believe it == You do NOT want the problems that these 
>chemicals can cause!
> 
> DO NOT breathe the stuff -- 

Yes,  we had a trichlor degreaser machines at two electronic
plants for which I worked decades ago in what is now called
"Silicon Valley".  The main guy in the machine shop would not
allow us young,  green engineers anywhere near the de-greaser,
but  all the parts we had had made in the shop had to be degreased
before plating.  Anyway,  he insisted on doing the degreasing.
We were making various "parts" for low noise and high power
microwave tubes there.

Some 10 years ago,  I recv'd a notice about his funeral!  Some
sort of strange cancer in his body had developed.

Enough said.

73,  Jim,  KH7M


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From kb9mci@qsl.net  Sat Jun 16 05:07:53 2001
From: kb9mci@qsl.net (Bryan Fields)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:07:53 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
In-Reply-To: <3B2A461E.DB4B1BA1@easystreet.com>
References: <NDBBLGNBKLCJJFDFMEINCEIACDAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com> <01061418000601.00693@kb9mci.sytes.net> <3B2A461E.DB4B1BA1@easystreet.com>
Message-ID: <01061523075302.00820@kb9mci.sytes.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Just checked, Freon 113 is Trichlorotrifluoroethane not Trichloroethane!  

Just for fun one day I decided to play with some Freon 12 by inhaling it then 
talking.  Does just the opposite of inhaling Helium, as my voice went down 2 
octaves!  

Don't try this at home!!!!!! 


On Friday 15 June 2001 12:30, you wrote:
> Are you sure you guys aren't talking about "trichoroethylene"?  I use that
> stuff to degrease oscilloscope fan motors all the time when I rebuild them
> as part of the old scope restoration process.  It is not as volatile as the
> freons I have seen and you can still get it in jugs at a chemical supply
> house.  Many freons boil at atmospheric pressures and room temperatures. 
> Trichloroethylene does not, but it does evaporate rather quickly and you
> really need to keep the container capped.  You also need to use it in a
> well ventilated area.  I have never seen it in a spray can.  You have sign
> a paper saying you are aware of the dangers of using this chemincal when
> you buy it.
>
> We could be talking about different chemicals here.  I have never heard of
> "trichlorethane" but then there are lots of chemicals I have never heard of
>
- -- 
Bryan Fields, KB9MCI
____________________
It is better to travel hopefully than to fly Continental.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE7Ktua1n1EIlKF06ARAuqfAJ9gAibFu4uKc8kos0T9bsDIV3b2gQCguilh
7t5yIXSW7HNDPKAD5wGEoYE=
=zriW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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From knesbitt@nucleus.com  Sat Jun 16 06:12:35 2001
From: knesbitt@nucleus.com (knesbitt)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:12:35 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Removing Oil from a Motor
Message-ID: <PCEILONDBABDJFCFAKFFEEMIDAAA.knesbitt@nucleus.com>



>Just checked, Freon 113 is Trichlorotrifluoroethane not Trichloroethane!
>
>Just for fun one day I decided to play with some Freon 12 by inhaling it
then
>talking.  Does just the opposite of inhaling Helium, as my voice went down
2
>octaves!
>
>Don't try this at home!!!!!!
--------

Ah yes, Helium. Tried that stuff once and had a overwhelming urge to twist
baloon animals for 3 days afterwards.
Quite ugly and embarrasing actually.

3e's

K. Nesbitt,   VE6IV


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From kg5u@hal-pc.org  Sat Jun 16 06:24:47 2001
From: kg5u@hal-pc.org (Dale L Martin)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 00:24:47 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Solvents
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLGNBKLCJJFDFMEINMEICCDAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBJJHKFOOEGKEBKHOJOENNDDAA.kg5u@hal-pc.org>

  Electrical Contact Cleaner will
> remove the oil but not harm the Windings. Some of these cleaner's could
> attack the vanish on the winding and then they would short
> out.... 73's Gene
> k2qwd
>

I was wondering about the effects on the varnish, too.

I know there are electric motor repair shops around Houston (and other
cities, I'm sure--just drier than Houston's).  They must have ways to clean
the motor windings without affecting the insulation.  Check around your area
and see.  If they can do it, I'd jump for it...that way, I wouldn't have to
fool with the Tri-chlor or any other solvents.

73,
dale, kg5u

>


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From billwall@bellsouth.net  Sat Jun 16 08:28:06 2001
From: billwall@bellsouth.net (bill wall)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 03:28:06 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
References: <NDBBLGNBKLCJJFDFMEINCEIACDAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com> <011101c0f542$95bfde40$f5d9da40@jkdesktop> <01061418000601.00693@kb9mci.sytes.net> <002901c0f58b$5587db40$e521c1cf@jkdesktop>
Message-ID: <003c01c0f635$e39a1740$dc4fd6d1@billwall>

Hi;
 The US Gov. removed Triclorethelyne out of the consumer market place. When
heated it becomes nerve gas. We in manufacturing used it as Aluminum
cleaner. It is missed.
                                            Bill  KC4UZ

----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Kincade" <w5kp@swbell.net>
To: "Bryan Fields" <kb9mci@qsl.net>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor


> Could be. 5 or 6 years ago, I'm pretty sure it was marked "1,1,1
> Trichlorethane" on the can, but the new cans don't say what's in it.
> Hmmm....  Up till a couple of years ago, you could buy 1,1,1
Trichloroethane
> in cans at the paint stores, but not sure it's still available. I bought a
> couple of extra cans of Gun Scrubber several months ago for my shop. Maybe
> I'd best get down there and pick up another several "backup" cans while
> there's still stock in the pipeline. It's been a great timesaver in my
shop,
> not to mention being the best gun degreaser/degunker I've ever used.
Stinks
> like hell until it's evaporated (but not as bad as Tolulene), not to
mention
> likely bad for your lungs/brain, so should only be used outside for sure.
> Sorry, Sierra Club.
> 73, Jerry
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bryan Fields <kb9mci@qsl.net>
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 6:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
>
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On Thursday 14 June 2001 21:26, you wrote:
> > > Thought I'd throw out that most gun shops carry Birchwood Casey "Gun
> > > Scrubber" in tall pressurized cans, for degreasing firearms
mechanisms.
> > > It's actually trichlorethane in a spray can.
> >
> > If memory serves, isn't trichlorethane Freon-113.  If so it is probaly
not
> > avaliable anymore, but i could be wrong.
> >
> >
> > - --
> > Bryan Fields, KB9MCI
> > ____________________
> > Of all the words of witch's doom
> > There's none so bad as which and whom.
> > The man who kills both which and whom
> > Will be enshrined in our Who's Whom.
> > -- Fletcher Knebel
> >
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.0.2 (GNU/Linux)
> > Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
> >
> > iD8DBQE7KUH21n1EIlKF06ARAj6wAJ4ne5C1LZdRSj7q+rYjqK81PzX69ACgzhAp
> > BbJedyhxIKEQRbJyiNvaHhg=
> > =MwMP
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call
> us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
> to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
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> >
> >
>
>
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>



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From w5kp@swbell.net  Sat Jun 16 13:02:32 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 07:02:32 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
References: <NDBBLGNBKLCJJFDFMEINCEIACDAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>
 <01061418000601.00693@kb9mci.sytes.net> <3B2A461E.DB4B1BA1@easystreet.com>
 <01061523075302.00820@kb9mci.sytes.net>
Message-ID: <006101c0f65c$3ac53240$df20c1cf@jkdesktop>

A very dangerous thing, for sure. I used to be a ship repair superintendent
at a Navy shipyard, and we had to flush referigerant lines with Freon xx
(don't remember the number) after assembly. Don't know the chemical
ramifications, but the standard warnings were that Freon is heavier than
air, and will completely displace oxygen at the lowest level per Mr.
Gravity, quickly suffocating it's victims. It's difficult to "expel" if you
breathe it, too, they say. We had to clear all people from tanks and lower
voids when using freon flushes, plus had to do a whole bunch of air tests in
all the lower compartments when we were done. Scary stuff. Never liked being
around it.
73, Jerry

----- Original Message -----
From: Bryan Fields <kb9mci@qsl.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Just checked, Freon 113 is Trichlorotrifluoroethane not Trichloroethane!
>
> Just for fun one day I decided to play with some Freon 12 by inhaling it
then
> talking.  Does just the opposite of inhaling Helium, as my voice went down
2
> octaves!
>
> Don't try this at home!!!!!!
>
>
> On Friday 15 June 2001 12:30, you wrote:
> > Are you sure you guys aren't talking about "trichoroethylene"?  I use
that
> > stuff to degrease oscilloscope fan motors all the time when I rebuild
them
> > as part of the old scope restoration process.  It is not as volatile as
the
> > freons I have seen and you can still get it in jugs at a chemical supply
> > house.  Many freons boil at atmospheric pressures and room temperatures.
> > Trichloroethylene does not, but it does evaporate rather quickly and you
> > really need to keep the container capped.  You also need to use it in a
> > well ventilated area.  I have never seen it in a spray can.  You have
sign
> > a paper saying you are aware of the dangers of using this chemincal when
> > you buy it.
> >
> > We could be talking about different chemicals here.  I have never heard
of
> > "trichlorethane" but then there are lots of chemicals I have never heard
of
> >
> - --
> Bryan Fields, KB9MCI
> ____________________
> It is better to travel hopefully than to fly Continental.
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.0.2 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
>
> iD8DBQE7Ktua1n1EIlKF06ARAuqfAJ9gAibFu4uKc8kos0T9bsDIV3b2gQCguilh
> 7t5yIXSW7HNDPKAD5wGEoYE=
> =zriW
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>


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From w7ti@jps.net  Sat Jun 16 14:24:16 2001
From: w7ti@jps.net (Bill Turner W7TI)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 06:24:16 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
In-Reply-To: <003c01c0f635$e39a1740$dc4fd6d1@billwall>
References: <NDBBLGNBKLCJJFDFMEINCEIACDAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com> <011101c0f542$95bfde40$f5d9da40@jkdesktop> <01061418000601.00693@kb9mci.sytes.net> <002901c0f58b$5587db40$e521c1cf@jkdesktop> <003c01c0f635$e39a1740$dc4fd6d1@billwall>
Message-ID: <2cnmit4bnm8u4ajf1q7c45a1fsl8pheiu4@4ax.com>

On Sat, 16 Jun 2001 03:28:06 -0400, bill wall wrote:

>Hi;
> The US Gov. removed Triclorethelyne out of the consumer market place. When
>heated it becomes nerve gas. We in manufacturing used it as Aluminum
>cleaner. It is missed.

_________________________________________________________

Also missed is carbon tetrachloride.  One of the best and
cheapest cleaners, if one doesn't mind stepping over the bodies.

:-)

Bill, W7TI

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From ve4xt@mb.sympatico.ca  Sat Jun 16 13:13:04 2001
From: ve4xt@mb.sympatico.ca (Kelly Taylor)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 07:13:04 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Sinking tower, a question
Message-ID: <01C0F635.8F62F2A0@wnpgas04-p403.mts.net>

Hi,

In regards to the Minnesota fellow whose tower is slowly sinking...

I don't mean to cast any aspersions here, it's just a question that I think is instructive to others. He said he used the factory spec 2x2x3 base but found the soil to be quite soft.

Is this an example of not adjusting the size of the base to the condition of the soil? Or is it unavoidable?

Kelly
ve4xt

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From n4gn@n4gn.com  Sat Jun 16 19:05:13 2001
From: n4gn@n4gn.com (Tim Totten, N4GN)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 14:05:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] Gin pole/acft cable for 55G?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0106161306100.17459-100000@shell1>

I'll admit up front that I don't have time to read the incredible volume
of postings to this reflector; I try to skim the subject lines and only
open maybe 5% of the messages.  So maybe I missed something in this last
thread on gin poles.

The most important thing I learned is that the Rohn gin pole is not rated
for lifting 55G sections.  That got my attention!  What is the weak point?
Is it the mounting or the actual pole?  Forgive me, but I've never
actually seen a Rohn gin pole.

I built a 45G tower summer before last.  This summer I'm planning a 55G
project.  I'm getting a late start, but hopefully I can get it all done
before contest season.

For the 45G, I used a gin pole that I bought from an individual who makes
them.  In fact, it was someone recommended on this list, but I can't
remember his name/call.  Not WB0W.  It clamps around a leg with a very
sturdy looking "door" that is hinged to a piece of angle.  I can't imagine
it failing under the load of a single 55G section.  But then I guess I
don't have any guarantees, and I can't even remember who made it.  Any
thoughts?  If the Rohn gin pole is not supposed to be used for 55G, what
DO people use, other than a crane?

For the actual pole, I used a standard Rohn M200H 10' mast.  Is that going
to be sufficient for 55G, assuming the mount to the tower is O.K.?  Does
anyone know the yield strength for the M200H?  And how does one rate the
safe working load of a gin pole anyway?  I guess one could calculate the
breaking point for a perpendicular load at ten feet from the mount.  That
would seem to be worst case.  Then apply a 5-to-1 safety factor?

One final thing.  I used rope in the gin pole for the 45G project, but I'm
seriously considering using some 1/8" aircraft cable that I have on hand.
It's quite a bit stronger, and I can fit a lot more of it on the
hand winch.  Anyone see any problems with this?

73,

Tim Totten, n4gn@n4gn.com
http://www.n4gn.com


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From kh7m@hsa-kauai.net  Sat Jun 16 19:17:24 2001
From: kh7m@hsa-kauai.net (Jim Reid)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 08:17:24 -1000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Half Wave Verticals @ WWV/VH
Message-ID: <004901c0f690$9e7eaf80$3f7ad818@gw400>

Hi all,

Now,  those interested,  can view an excellent photo
of the 1/2 wave verticals at WWV and WWVH.  Read
the text below the photo.  There you will discover WWV/
WWVH use elevated 1/4 wave verticals for
these HF radiators each with 9  sloping,  elevated
resonant radials!!!  If you look closely at the photo, you
will see the several elevated radials;  they come down
at a very steep angle,  and probably act more as a
real lower vertical section than what we think of as
elevated radials.  The discussion about the antennas is
a paragraph or two down below the photo.  Note the
text says the radiating radials come down at a 45 degree
angle,  but sure does not appear to be so in the photo.

Go to: http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/stations/wwv.html

You can easily see the center insulators of the towers.
What is not shown, nor discussed is the huge and extensive
ground radial field at each site.  This ground "screen" field
had to be installed to recover several dB of signal strength
out in the far Western Pacific from WWVH.  Why? Because
of the high E-field at the lower end of the down sloping radials.
The E-field at the ends of these sloping radials is very intense
because of the very high RF voltage at the radial ends driven
by the 10kW transmitters!  These fields induced very high
currents into the ground,  but the radial field eliminates much
of the ohmic loss of the induced current,  thus recovering the
former lost field strength.  Also looking closely,  you can see the
feed coax going up to the center feed point in the inside of the
right hand tower in the photo (this photo is of one of the phased
array pair out here at WWVH).  Out here,  these arrays are
right on the beach within the confines of the Navy's Barking
Sands facilities.

If you are curious, there is much other info about these stations
available on the site link above.  Note that NIST is now conducting
a survey about the use of these stations to the HF using community.
Should you want to be sure these stations continue to operate( a
pretty high cost must be spent to replace the 30 year old antennas
out here at WWVH) you may participate in this survey at:

http://www.timesurvey.nist.gov/

Hope you find this info interesting as I have.

73,  Jim  KH7M
On the Garden Island of Kauai and only about
18 miles from WWVH.


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From n4kg@juno.com  Sat Jun 16 06:53:56 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:53:56 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Sinking Tower...
Message-ID: <20010616.140534.-97703.0.N4KG@juno.com>

GOOD  POINT  Stan.

That reminds me of when I was installing one of my tall towers.
I kept cranking on one of the turnbuckles but it never seemed to
get tight.  I suspected the anchor might be moving and sure enough,
when I grabbed it, I could move it several inches up and down !

Fortunately, I use TWO anchors in each direction on my tall towers,
subscribing to the philosophy of Never relying on ONE of anything
if at all possible when your life could be on the line.

It turned out that I have underground water in places and that screw
anchor happened to find one of them.  I believe I moved the anchor.

de  Tom  N4KG


On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 Stan or Patricia Griffiths <w7ni@easystreet.com>
writes:
> Just as a precaution, I would measure the amount of anchor rod above 
> the surface and
> check it periodically, just to make sure the anchors aren't slowly 
> pulling out of the
> ground.  If the tower can sink, I would be concerned about the long 
> term effect of a
> constant pull on an anchor in the same soil.  I may be all wrong 
> here, but it doesn't
> cost anything to check it once in awhile . . .
> 
> Stan
> w7ni@easystreet.com
> 
> David L. Thompson wrote:
> 
> > N4KG is right on the downward thrust on the tower base.  I 
> remember the W0/5
> > in Louisiana telling me that sinking tower bases is very common in 
> BC and SW
> > and his tower base sank 2 inches per year.   He was involved with 
> a 1000
> > foot tower and they put down a pier of
> > concrete and gravel below the actual base.   I think N4KG's advice 
> and
> > resetting the guys will suffice for a guyed tower.   On a crank up 
> like I
> > have there is an adjustment on the base pins (made from 1" 
> universal bolt).
> > There is 3" of bolt above the concrete base and I have a big 
> wrench made by
> > Lou Tristao that I use to adjust the level.   A crank up should be 
> as close
> > to level as possible!  I adjust mine each spring and then adjust 
> the guys
> > (If you have a guyed crank up).
> >
> > Dave K4JRB
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this 
> summer? Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting 
> towers - up to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
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> 
> 
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> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers 
> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
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> 

________________________________________________________________
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From kh7m@hsa-kauai.net  Sat Jun 16 21:56:21 2001
From: kh7m@hsa-kauai.net (Jim Reid)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:56:21 -1000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: [Antennas] Half Wave Verticals @ WWV/VH
References: <004901c0f690$9e7eaf80$3f7ad818@gw400>
Message-ID: <000b01c0f6a6$cf623de0$3f7ad818@gw400>


> 
> Now,  those interested,  can view an excellent photo
> of the 1/2 wave verticals at WWV and WWVH.  

Just wanted to say that you can see some of the radial
field lines in this photo as well.  Look closely at the sand
just under the fence rail of the enclosure, and you will
see the radial lines.  Bet there are at least 120 under
each tower!

73,  Jim  KH7M


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From antipode@ne.mediaone.net  Sat Jun 16 22:39:12 2001
From: antipode@ne.mediaone.net (antipode)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:39:12 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Half Wave Verticals @ WWV/VH
References: <004901c0f690$9e7eaf80$3f7ad818@gw400>
Message-ID: <3B2BD200.5E9C591C@ne.mediaone.net>

Jim,

When I try the WWV URL below you've provided, it appears to be password
protected.  What gives?

Bill
W5IQJ




Jim Reid wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Now,  those interested,  can view an excellent photo
> of the 1/2 wave verticals at WWV and WWVH.  Read
> the text below the photo.  There you will discover WWV/
> WWVH use elevated 1/4 wave verticals for
> these HF radiators each with 9  sloping,  elevated
> resonant radials!!!  If you look closely at the photo, you
> will see the several elevated radials;  they come down
> at a very steep angle,  and probably act more as a
> real lower vertical section than what we think of as
> elevated radials.  The discussion about the antennas is
> a paragraph or two down below the photo.  Note the
> text says the radiating radials come down at a 45 degree
> angle,  but sure does not appear to be so in the photo.
> 
> Go to: http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/stations/wwv.html
> 
> You can easily see the center insulators of the towers.
> What is not shown, nor discussed is the huge and extensive
> ground radial field at each site.  This ground "screen" field
> had to be installed to recover several dB of signal strength
> out in the far Western Pacific from WWVH.  Why? Because
> of the high E-field at the lower end of the down sloping radials.
> The E-field at the ends of these sloping radials is very intense
> because of the very high RF voltage at the radial ends driven
> by the 10kW transmitters!  These fields induced very high
> currents into the ground,  but the radial field eliminates much
> of the ohmic loss of the induced current,  thus recovering the
> former lost field strength.  Also looking closely,  you can see the
> feed coax going up to the center feed point in the inside of the
> right hand tower in the photo (this photo is of one of the phased
> array pair out here at WWVH).  Out here,  these arrays are
> right on the beach within the confines of the Navy's Barking
> Sands facilities.
> 
> If you are curious, there is much other info about these stations
> available on the site link above.  Note that NIST is now conducting
> a survey about the use of these stations to the HF using community.
> Should you want to be sure these stations continue to operate( a
> pretty high cost must be spent to replace the 30 year old antennas
> out here at WWVH) you may participate in this survey at:
> 
> http://www.timesurvey.nist.gov/
> 
> Hope you find this info interesting as I have.
> 
> 73,  Jim  KH7M
> On the Garden Island of Kauai and only about
> 18 miles from WWVH.
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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From kh7m@hsa-kauai.net  Sat Jun 16 23:05:13 2001
From: kh7m@hsa-kauai.net (Jim Reid)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 12:05:13 -1000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Half Wave Verticals @ WWV/VH
References: <004901c0f690$9e7eaf80$3f7ad818@gw400> <3B2BD200.5E9C591C@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <000f01c0f6b0$6e77dd00$3f7ad818@gw400>



> When I try the WWV URL below you've provided, it 
> appears to be password protected.  What gives?

It is not protected,  it is a public site for NIST publicity
and their survey.  Did you type the URL,  of just click
on it?  Maybe you mistyped?  Don't know,  comes up
fine for me.  Have not heard of a problem from anyone
else....others having a problem?

73,  Jim   KH7M



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From antipode@ne.mediaone.net  Sat Jun 16 23:17:48 2001
From: antipode@ne.mediaone.net (antipode)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 18:17:48 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Half Wave Verticals @ WWV/VH
References: <004901c0f690$9e7eaf80$3f7ad818@gw400> <3B2BD200.5E9C591C@ne.mediaone.net> <000f01c0f6b0$6e77dd00$3f7ad818@gw400>
Message-ID: <3B2BDB0C.51469DC8@ne.mediaone.net>

Hmm.  Something must be wrong.  I just clicked on the link like always
and a PW dialog box comes up.  This isn't the first time this has
happened.  I suspect I may have a damaged browser.  Sounds like from all
of the responses, the link you provided works just fine.  Thanks for the
info.

Bill
W5IQJ



Jim Reid wrote:
> 
> > When I try the WWV URL below you've provided, it
> > appears to be password protected.  What gives?
> 
> It is not protected,  it is a public site for NIST publicity
> and their survey.  Did you type the URL,  of just click
> on it?  Maybe you mistyped?  Don't know,  comes up
> fine for me.  Have not heard of a problem from anyone
> else....others having a problem?
> 
> 73,  Jim   KH7M
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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From wbarby@telus.net  Sun Jun 17 00:23:43 2001
From: wbarby@telus.net (Wilf Barby)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 16:23:43 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] wwvh
Message-ID: <004f01c0f6bb$ec383e00$67e1e8d8@bc.hsia.telus.net>

Hey Jim! I bet you don't have a problem with propagation when getting
a time check!  Very interesting URL. Thanks. 73


Wilf  VE7QO

wbarby@telus.net


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From georgekr5c@cablelynx.com  Sun Jun 17 01:03:07 2001
From: georgekr5c@cablelynx.com (George Lee)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 19:03:07 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Tower Talk Digest V4 #257
References: <200106160351.f5G3pJW10863@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c0f6c0$e4674220$0608cc18@georgelee>

Hi Tim.

Saw your note on the TT about brake cleaner.  I was wondering if your
comment "Tri-Clor" refers to tri-chloroethylene.  I have used many gallons
of this stuff at work cleaning sample lines and equipment related to the
muck that comes in sample lines in a cracking plant.

I have been retired almost 8 years now and was under the impression that it
had been banned from the planet.  Guess I better check out one of the auto
stores down the street.

Just passing and saw something that may have been related to my past work
life.  I was actually a gas chromotographer (big word for analyzer tech).
Did all my own dirty work.

It is a magnificent cleaner when often others will not only not clean, they
will cause more problems.

It will eat up most anything near it that has to be used for seals such as
in a pump.

Sorry for the BW.

73, George KR5C



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From n7ppf@webtv.net  Sun Jun 17 02:00:43 2001
From: n7ppf@webtv.net (James Smith)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 18:00:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] quad ant
Message-ID: <25177-3B2C013B-1153@storefull-118.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

I'm thinking about getting a quad antenna two element 5 band 20 - 10m.
does anyone owen one and if so what's the good and bad points of it.

Tnx ... Jim n7ppf 

ARRL Southwestern Divsion Convention
            Sept. 7th - 9th, 2001
       Riverside Convention Center
For the latest info see us on the web
      http:www.qsl.net/arrl-2001swdc/

Jim Smith, N7PPF
NCS, Riverside County RACES
EC, PEOC Riverside, Ca.
mailto:n7ppf@arrl.net
NVIS - "No Skip Zone Here"


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From w7ti@jps.net  Sun Jun 17 03:09:30 2001
From: w7ti@jps.net (Bill Turner W7TI)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 19:09:30 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] quad ant
In-Reply-To: <25177-3B2C013B-1153@storefull-118.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
References: <25177-3B2C013B-1153@storefull-118.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <s43oitob1vajdi6q2h3c0fqgurctrc8p0b@4ax.com>

On Sat, 16 Jun 2001 18:00:43 -0700 (PDT), James Smith wrote:

>I'm thinking about getting a quad antenna two element 5 band 20 - 10m.
>does anyone owen one and if so what's the good and bad points of it.
>
>Tnx ... Jim n7ppf 

_________________________________________________________

I've had both quads and yagis and had good luck with both.

Here are some things to consider:

1.  A quad is a three dimensional object, where a yagi is two
dimensional.  This makes a quad MUCH more difficult to assemble
and install, especially a large one like 20 meters.  A yagi can
just be laid on the ground during assembly; for a quad you'll
have to build some kind of support, and when it's up on the
support, you'll be working up on a 14 foot ladder.  Not fun.  And
a 14 foot ladder isn't cheap, either.  Also, when you go to lift
it up, do you have any friends with 14 foot arms?  This last item
can be worked around with various ropes and pulleys off the
tower, but again, it will be more difficult.

2.  A quad uses wire for elements; wire is weak compared to
aluminum tubing.  I live in an ice-free area.  If I lived where
there was ice, I wouldn't even consider a quad.  BTW, I've never
had a broken wire yet (knock on wood).

3.  A quad has greater SWR bandwidth although there are schemes
such as dual driven elements which can significantly broaden the
yagi.

4.  A yagi looks better, IMO.  :-)

5.  The old story about quads being cheap and easy may be true if
you use bamboo for the spreaders, but top quality fiberglass
spreaders are expen$ive.  A quad of equal performance to a yagi
will cost about the same.  Obviously there are variables here;
this is a generalization.  The four element, three band quad I
have now cost about $1000.

6.  If I had to start from scratch and do it all over again,
which would I choose?  A yagi, mainly for mechanical reasons.
Electrically I think the quad is superior, but the disadvantages
outweigh the advantages, IMO.

There - that should fan a flame or two...

73, Bill W7TI

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From kg5u@hal-pc.org  Sun Jun 17 04:47:53 2001
From: kg5u@hal-pc.org (Dale L Martin)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 22:47:53 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Half Wave Verticals @ WWV/VH
In-Reply-To: <000f01c0f6b0$6e77dd00$3f7ad818@gw400>
Message-ID: <LPBBJJHKFOOEGKEBKHOJAEOFDDAA.kg5u@hal-pc.org>



Are the antennas phased?  Or are they antennas for two different freqs?
They look the same heighth.  There's no mention of  coverage preferences in
the text; just 'omnidirectional'.

I'm thinking seriously now of elevating my ground mounted vertical to at
least 1/4-wave of 20m -- if it's good enough for WWV, it's good enough for
me.

Can two antennas be fed for an omni-directional pattern?  Why two and not
just one?  :-)

I experienced no problem accessing the webpage; it came right up without a
logon/password dialog box.

73,
dale, kg5u

>


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From kh7m@hsa-kauai.net  Sun Jun 17 07:49:49 2001
From: kh7m@hsa-kauai.net (Jim Reid)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 20:49:49 -1000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Half Wave Verticals @ WWV/VH
References: <LPBBJJHKFOOEGKEBKHOJAEOFDDAA.kg5u@hal-pc.org>
Message-ID: <001f01c0f6f9$b92875a0$3f7ad818@gw400>

It was wondered:

> Are the antennas phased?  

Yes.  These are the 15 MHz antenna array. Two half-wave 
vertical dipoles separated by a quarter-wave length and 
driven 90 degrees out of phase

>Or are they antennas for two different freqs?

Nope,  phased on 15 MHz.

> They look the same heighth.  There's no mention of  
> coverage preferences in the text; just 'omnidirectional.

They are phased to provide a "cardioid" pattern to the
West.  So to the East,  the signal is way down.
 
> I'm thinking seriously now of elevating my ground mounted 
> vertical to at least 1/4-wave of 20m -- if it's good enough 
> for WWV, it's good enough for me.

Excellent idea,  but,  you must provide an excellent ground
radial field to get ALL the benefit!  And,  it is also 
a good idea to provide the "other half" of the antenna with
a steeply sloping set of elevated radials,  just as at WWVH.
 
> Can two antennas be fed for an omni-directional pattern?  

No, there is nothing to be gained from two vertical antennas
for omni coverage.

> Why two and not just one?  

Phased cardioid pattern to the West.  Over to Asia,  JA, DU
land,  etc.

The goal was US Naval facilities/ships located in the far Western
Pacific,  so the cardioid pattern faces West.  Now,  of course, the
ships of the fleet are all using GPS,  so the NIST and WWV/WWVH
are searching for reasons to continue "to be".

There is much technical info on the previous link provided,  but
you must click about to find same,  hi.  Including,  some excellent
photos of the transmitters and 10kW power supplies out here
at WWVH.

73,  Jim KH7M



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From bravo@iol.ie  Sun Jun 17 10:40:10 2001
From: bravo@iol.ie (John Tait)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:40:10 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] quad ant
References: <25177-3B2C013B-1153@storefull-118.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <s43oitob1vajdi6q2h3c0fqgurctrc8p0b@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <002901c0f711$820a6d40$1e94cbc1@johntait>




> On Sat, 16 Jun 2001 18:00:43 -0700 (PDT), James Smith wrote:
>
> >I'm thinking about getting a quad antenna two element 5 band 20 - 10m.
> >does anyone owen one and if so what's the good and bad points of it.
> >
> >Tnx ... Jim n7ppf
>
> _________________________________________________________
>
> I've had both quads and yagis and had good luck with both.

     Same here...

>
> Here are some things to consider:
>
> 1.  A quad is a three dimensional object, where a yagi is two
> dimensional.  This makes a quad MUCH more difficult to assemble
> and install, especially a large one like 20 meters.  A yagi can
> just be laid on the ground during assembly; for a quad you'll
> have to build some kind of support, and when it's up on the
> support, you'll be working up on a 14 foot ladder.  Not fun.  And
> a 14 foot ladder isn't cheap, either.  Also, when you go to lift
> it up, do you have any friends with 14 foot arms?  This last item
> can be worked around with various ropes and pulleys off the
> tower, but again, it will be more difficult.

              Not a problem if you have a crank-up tilt-over tower...
The highest I ever have to reach is accessable from the 3rd step
 of my step ladder...

>
> 2.  A quad uses wire for elements; wire is weak compared to
> aluminum tubing.  I live in an ice-free area.  If I lived where
> there was ice, I wouldn't even consider a quad.  BTW, I've never
> had a broken wire yet (knock on wood).

     Strength can be relative... I live on the coast, so we get lots of
wind borne salt, and VERY strong gales. Not conducive to (expensive)
aluminium tubing.  I use hard drawn copper (cheap) wire.
We get no icing here.


>
> 3.  A quad has greater SWR bandwidth although there are schemes
> such as dual driven elements which can significantly broaden the
> yagi.

        Such as the Hygain TH11 and the Cushcraft X7 & X9 etc.

>
> 4.  A yagi looks better, IMO.  :-)

  HMMmmmmmmmmmm!!! ???


>
> 5.  The old story about quads being cheap and easy may be true if
> you use bamboo for the spreaders, but top quality fiberglass
> spreaders are expen$ive.  A quad of equal performance to a yagi
> will cost about the same.  Obviously there are variables here;
> this is a generalization.  The four element, three band quad I
> have now cost about $1000.

   My glassfibre arms were bought very cheaply as "seconds"..  16.5 ft
long,   tapering from 1.75 ins to .75 ins    $12.00 each.


>
> 6.  If I had to start from scratch and do it all over again,
> which would I choose?  A yagi, mainly for mechanical reasons.
> Electrically I think the quad is superior, but the disadvantages
> outweigh the advantages, IMO.

  "Mechanical reasons" is exactly why I would go for the 2 element spider
Quad.
  A very small rotator can handle it.
I don't think either is "superior" to the other... A 3 element Yagi,
performs much the
 same as a 2 el Quad.
>
> There - that should fan a flame or two...

  No flames from me Bill... It's nice to hear other of people's experiences,
opinions,
problem resolutions etc... We're all trying to do the best we can with what
we've got...

   Vy 73 to all
    de
     John EI7BA     http://www.iol.ie/~bravo/


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From eric@k3na.org  Sun Jun 17 11:21:45 2001
From: eric@k3na.org (Eric Scace)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:21:45 +0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Antenna surface area
In-Reply-To: <3B2353A6.FB4B1A53@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJKPCLKFDODKNIPHKCEJOEJAA.eric@k3na.org>

   One point which Hank made has been unappreciated.

   Wind is not a laminar flow of air.  It is highly turbulent at the scale we are dealing with.  None of the calculations we are
talking about have much to do with modeling actual behavior of air against metal.  (I'll claim this area of expertise; my degree is
in atmospheric physics and fluid mechanics.)

   Rather, long (sometimes tragic) experience has resulted in rules of gross approximation which, when applied, result in structures
that fail very infrequently -- so infrequently that affordable insurance can be obtained and "non-stop services" can run pretty much
non-stop.  For towers and their loads, the rules of approximation are those described in the building codes and the TIA spec.
Follow the calculation method described.  (This is not my area of expertise.  I look to P.E.s like Hank for this part.)

   Don't try to "improve it" to "better reflect reality".  That's akin to trying to measure a mud puddle's diameter with a
micrometer, when all we want to do is lay a long enough board over the mud puddle to cross without messing up our shoes.

-- Eric K3NA


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From eric@k3na.org  Sun Jun 17 11:21:47 2001
From: eric@k3na.org (Eric Scace)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:21:47 +0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Complex Impedances
In-Reply-To: <3B245EBD.9F2D59C8@planet.eon.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJKPCLKFDODKNIPHKEEJOEJAA.eric@k3na.org>

An ordinary Excel spreadsheet will do these kinds of calculations.  Look up mathematical functions in the Help files.  -- Eric K3NA

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Denis Coolican
Sent: 2001 June 11 Mon 10:02
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Complex Impedances


Hi, I was wondering if anyone has any software or knows where to find
software  that will convert from polar to rectangular coordinates  and
do division of complex impedances.

Regards

Denis Ve6AQ

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From billwall@bellsouth.net  Sun Jun 17 12:06:56 2001
From: billwall@bellsouth.net (bill wall)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:06:56 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
References: <NDBBLGNBKLCJJFDFMEINCEIACDAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com> <011101c0f542$95bfde40$f5d9da40@jkdesktop> <01061418000601.00693@kb9mci.sytes.net> <002901c0f58b$5587db40$e521c1cf@jkdesktop> <003c01c0f635$e39a1740$dc4fd6d1@billwall> <2cnmit4bnm8u4ajf1q7c45a1fsl8pheiu4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <004b01c0f71d$a01951a0$57664ed8@billwall>

Hi All;
Many chemical cleaners are now bought with a license only. Benzol (Benzine),
Creosote, Nitro Methane and many others. We use lacquer thinner to polish
aluminum, but only outdoors with hand protection.
                                            Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Turner W7TI" <w7ti@jps.net>
To: "bill wall" <billwall@bellsouth.net>
Cc: "J. Kincade" <w5kp@swbell.net>; "Bryan Fields" <kb9mci@qsl.net>;
<towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor


> On Sat, 16 Jun 2001 03:28:06 -0400, bill wall wrote:
>
> >Hi;
> > The US Gov. removed Triclorethelyne out of the consumer market place.
When
> >heated it becomes nerve gas. We in manufacturing used it as Aluminum
> >cleaner. It is missed.
>
> _________________________________________________________
>
> Also missed is carbon tetrachloride.  One of the best and
> cheapest cleaners, if one doesn't mind stepping over the bodies.
>
> :-)
>
> Bill, W7TI
>
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>



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From antipode@ne.mediaone.net  Sun Jun 17 17:06:04 2001
From: antipode@ne.mediaone.net (antipode)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:06:04 -0700
Subject: [Antennas] Re: [TowerTalk] Half Wave Verticals @ WWV/VH
References: <004901c0f690$9e7eaf80$3f7ad818@gw400> <3B2BD200.5E9C591C@ne.mediaone.net> <000f01c0f6b0$6e77dd00$3f7ad818@gw400> <3B2C00D4.CC356EFE@gte.net>
Message-ID: <3B2CD56C.21F8E6D5@ne.mediaone.net>

Apparently I had a broken O/S!  Weird!  Anyway it's all fixed now with
the help of a generous friend.  The WWV link works fine as I suspected
it was going to after everyone else indicated thay weren't having the
problem.  Knew then it was something wrong with my machine.

73,
Bill
W5IQJ





"Robert B. Frost" wrote:
> 
> Worked for me.
> 
> Bob Frost
> 
> Jim Reid wrote:
> 
> > > When I try the WWV URL below you've provided, it
> > > appears to be password protected.  What gives?
> >
> > It is not protected,  it is a public site for NIST publicity
> > and their survey.  Did you type the URL,  of just click
> > on it?  Maybe you mistyped?  Don't know,  comes up
> > fine for me.  Have not heard of a problem from anyone
> > else....others having a problem?
> >
> > 73,  Jim   KH7M
> >
> > ------
> > Submissions: antennas@qth.net

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From ag0n@arrl.net  Sun Jun 17 15:30:15 2001
From: ag0n@arrl.net (Gary McDuffie, Sr.)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 08:30:15 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Half Wave Verticals @ WWV/VH
In-Reply-To: <001f01c0f6f9$b92875a0$3f7ad818@gw400>
References: <LPBBJJHKFOOEGKEBKHOJAEOFDDAA.kg5u@hal-pc.org> <001f01c0f6f9$b92875a0$3f7ad818@gw400>
Message-ID: <ahfpitsrb4e5683a8t72nt6m42ug6uv9b1@4ax.com>

On Sat, 16 Jun 2001 20:49:49 -1000, Jim Reid wrote:

> > Can two antennas be fed for an omni-directional pattern?  
> 
> No, there is nothing to be gained from two vertical antennas
> for omni coverage.

I would think this would be incorrect.  You can stack the verticals
vertically and still be omni.  It's done all the time at VHF
frequencies.  While not the desired pattern in their case, it is doable.

Gary

ag0n at arrl dot net
http://mcduffie.ws
-- 

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From wa2bpe@exotrope.net  Sun Jun 17 15:51:47 2001
From: wa2bpe@exotrope.net (WA2BPE)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:51:47 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Solvents
References: <LPBBJJHKFOOEGKEBKHOJOENNDDAA.kg5u@hal-pc.org>
Message-ID: <3B2CC403.9503B588@exotrope.net>

Gents,

Suggest being *VERY* careful with which solvents you use.  Some will do much nastier
things to you than merely drying out your skin.  Some are absorbed and may/will cause
disorientation, drunk-like conditions, cause liver and other organ damage; the list is
long. Almost any *may* cause eye damage.  I suggest looking at and reading the MSD
(Material Safety Data) sheets (they are free - by law - even paint at the local hardware
store has MSD sheets which MUST be provided  if asked for) though they are sometimes
difficult to understand and put into perspective.  The biggest problem with MSDS is
understanding the terminology - not simple.  Some solvents are innocuous, some are bad
actors, and some are downright vile  (**don't use carbon tetrachloride (CCl4) or benzene
(C6H6) under ANY conditions**).  ...And rubber/plastic gloves aren't a guarantee of
"protection"  Look at the following URLs as a start:

http://www.ilpi.com/msds/
http://msds.pdc.cornell.edu/msdssrch.asp
http://www.msdssearch.com/

There are some that are considerably safer, e.g., "Orange Solv" (and other brands of
citrus oils based solvents) though they usually aren't quite as aggressive or fast.
"Adequate" ventilation (outdoors is best) is essential for *any* of these.  BTW, even
the citrus-based will attack paint if allowed to set long enough.  It is best to spot
try any solvent first to see if things are attacked; better safe than having something
completely ruined.  This is not meant to lecture anyone, but I work in industry where
safety courses are mandatory and while sometimes the warnings appear ridiculous, it is
imperative to know what you are working with.

73,

Tom - WA2BPE

Dale L Martin wrote:

>   Electrical Contact Cleaner will
> > remove the oil but not harm the Windings. Some of these cleaner's could
> > attack the vanish on the winding and then they would short
> > out.... 73's Gene
> > k2qwd
> >
>
> I was wondering about the effects on the varnish, too.
>
> I know there are electric motor repair shops around Houston (and other
> cities, I'm sure--just drier than Houston's).  They must have ways to clean
> the motor windings without affecting the insulation.  Check around your area
> and see.  If they can do it, I'd jump for it...that way, I wouldn't have to
> fool with the Tri-chlor or any other solvents.
>
> 73,
> dale, kg5u
>
> >
>
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From K7LXC@aol.com  Sun Jun 17 17:05:45 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:05:45 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] US Tower tubular crankups
Message-ID: <cd.7ee08ef.285e2f59@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/4/01 4:41:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kahager@gis.net 
writes:

> Considering the purchase of a used 7 yr old US Tower MA40 Tubular style
>  crankup and have been told by the company that the cables need to be
>  replaced approx every 3 years depending on the climate by a professional
>  installer.  
>  Has any user of this type of tower had to replace the cables on
>  their tower and if so what was the expense?  Is 3 years the approx life 
span
>  for cables on a crankups generally speaking or can you expect to get more
>  life out of them.  I suppose the company is playing it safe(liability wise)
>  when  making this recomendation.

    I didn't see any responses to this so better late than never.

    Yes, the company line is replace the cables every 3 years. This is their 
"weasel clause" in case anything happens they can 'weasel' out of any 
responsibility.

    The real world situation is that yes, cables do need to be replaced 
occasionally. How occasionally? You need to replace the cables if 1) there is 
deep rust - not just surface rust which is no big deal. 2) Replace the cables 
if there's obvious damage. This would be a permanent set that the cable has 
taken somewhere. This is where the cable is obviously bent or not in its 
normal straight orientation. 3) You should replace the cables if you have 
broken strands. Wire rope cable industry standards have a 6/3 rule. That is a 
cable should be replaced if there are more than 6 strands broken (crank-ups 
normally use 7/19 cables which is 7 bundles of 19 strands each) or 3 breaks 
in one strand. Since you have a tower where the cables are basically hidden, 
they are not easily observable so you need to figure out how to do it. 

    To replace (or inspect) the cables on this tower, you have to get it 
horizontal and then pull the sections apart. The sections aren't that heavy 
so a couple of guys can do it. You just need the room to do it. Also 
disassembling an existing antenna array isn't very palatable for many people. 

    Since you're going to be buying it and then bringing it home, that'll be 
a good opportunity to do the aforementioned disassembly/inspection. If the 
cables appear to be fine (and they most likely will be unless the tower was 
in a hostile environment), then use a good cable lubricant like PreLube 6 
(available from  <A HREF="http://www.championradio.com">Champion Radio 
Products</A> and recommended by wire rope manufacturers) and then put it up.

    To prolong cable life, you can do several things. First, exercise the 
tower a couple of times a month. That is, run it all the way up and down a 
couple of times. Next, don't use the same spot every time for when the tower 
is extended or retracted. It's real easy to just use the limit switch spots 
but over time the cable will take a set at those points. It's better to 
spread the cable work over different spots than the same one all the time. 
And of course do an inspection and use a cable lubricant twice a year. 

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech
Factory authorized US Tower installer

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From ford@cmgate.com  Sun Jun 17 18:09:38 2001
From: ford@cmgate.com (Ford Peterson)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:09:38 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Sinking Tower, A Question
Message-ID: <002a01c0f750$4b39d6e0$0300a8c0@lab>

Kelly wrote...

>I don't mean to cast any aspersions here, it's just a >question that I
think is instructive to others. He said he >used the factory spec 2x2x3 base
but found the soil to be >quite soft.

>Is this an example of not adjusting the size of the base to >the condition
of the soil? Or is it unavoidable?


You make a very good point.  When I installed the base, it had been quite
dry all summer.  Even then, the soils were moist in the area I was digging
(yippie skippy at least it wasn't clay or rock)  Although I can tell the
difference between sand, rock, and clay, which are the three examples of
"poor" soils used in the documentation, I wouldn't know good soil from bad
soil.  I have little experience with "soils."  Frankly, had I known that the
area in question would flood during a wet spring, I may have done things
differently.

I am going to rig up some sort of fixture that will allow me to accurately
measure the footing next year.  Meanwhile, I'll just adjust the guys some
more.

I have received alot of good suggestions and appreciate.  My personal view
is that the installation may have been botched and needs to be redone.
Perhaps its time to just pull up stakes and move to a better QTH anyway.
"Oh Honey, have you seen the Sunday paper real estate ads?"

Thanks for all the help everybody.

Ford-N0FP
ford@cmgate.com




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From n4zr@contesting.com  Sun Jun 17 18:17:03 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:17:03 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Sinking Tower, A Question
In-Reply-To: <002a01c0f750$4b39d6e0$0300a8c0@lab>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010617131703.00a26100@mail.abs.adelphia.net>

Before we get too hard on anyone about under-engineered tower footings....

When I lived in Hong Kong in the mid-1960's, the colony's pride and joy was
the new Ocean Terminal, combining docking for cruise ships with a
multi-story shopping deck that was mounted above the pier on separate
columns footed in bedrock.  Imagine the engineers' surprise when they
realized that the headroom on the pier was diminishing about 6 inches a
year, as the shopping deck drove its way inexorably down into the bedrock
(which turned out to be crumbly, decomposed granite).

Not to say that we shouldn't try to anticipate problems and make
appropriate allowances, but sometimes best efforts fall short.  I think
Ford has the right idea -- measure what's happening, and if the base is
indeed sinking, figure out how to spread the load more broadly.  That's
what they did in HongKong -- put in additional columns. 

73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From w5kp@swbell.net  Sun Jun 17 18:45:16 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:45:16 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] MARC
Message-ID: <003d01c0f755$45eb4020$5520c1cf@jkdesktop>

Where, pray tell, can one fine the famous "MARC" antenna/mast calculator
program I hear about? I need to do some ciphering to determine whether I
need a .180 wall or .250 wall mast.

Thanks, Jerry W5KP  Mustang, Oklahoma



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From rthorne@tcac.net  Sun Jun 17 18:50:26 2001
From: rthorne@tcac.net (Richard Thorne)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:50:26 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] MARC
References: <003d01c0f755$45eb4020$5520c1cf@jkdesktop>
Message-ID: <3B2CEDE1.939B8DB0@tcac.net>

Jerry:

Go to http://www.championradio.com.  Click on software.  I use my copy all the time for
planning purposes.

"J. Kincade" wrote:

> Where, pray tell, can one fine the famous "MARC" antenna/mast calculator
> program I hear about? I need to do some ciphering to determine whether I
> need a .180 wall or .250 wall mast.
>
> Thanks, Jerry W5KP  Mustang, Oklahoma
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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--
73,
Richard Thorne
Amarillo, TX
Amateur Radio Station - N5ZC (Ex. KA2DSY, N2BHP, WB5M)
Remote Control Planes - AMA # N5ZC
Web Page: http://www.tcac.net/~rthorne/index.html



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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Sat Jun 16 18:27:19 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:27:19 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re:
References: <20010616.095141.4678.2.k4za@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3B2B96F7.A706FF38@easystreet.com>

I believe Kurt intends to publish his email to the towertalk reflector when
he is ready to do it.  I just wanted everyone to be on the look out for it
when it hits.  Only Kurt can decide if and when it is ready for publication.
Sorry . . . but I am quite sure you will see it soon.

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

k4za@juno.com wrote:

> re:
>
> Hey Guys,
>
> Kurt, K7NV, just sent me an email where he discusses
> sideloading on a gin pole
>
> How are WE supposed to read it?  I'd like to, but it's not attached to
> your post & since it's an e-mail to YOU...???
>
> Forward me a copy.  I've seen one of those rooster heads, but it was on a
> gin pole larger than 25G!  Think it would hard to accomplish on 2-inch
> tube.
>
> vy 73 de Don K4ZA
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Sun Jun 17 18:46:57 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:46:57 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Gin pole/acft cable for 55G?
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0106161306100.17459-100000@shell1>
Message-ID: <3B2CED10.4202758@easystreet.com>

Hi Tim,

I've inserted a few comments below:

Tim Totten, N4GN wrote:

> I'll admit up front that I don't have time to read the incredible volume
> of postings to this reflector; I try to skim the subject lines and only
> open maybe 5% of the messages.  So maybe I missed something in this last
> thread on gin poles.
>
> The most important thing I learned is that the Rohn gin pole is not rated
> for lifting 55G sections.  That got my attention!  What is the weak point?
> Is it the mounting or the actual pole?  Forgive me, but I've never
> actually seen a Rohn gin pole.

I am not sure of the actual rating on the Rohn EF2545 Gin Pole.  By the way, Rohn calls
them "Erection Fixtures" if you ever want to look one up on the Rohn web page and you
can't any reference to gin poles.  I have heard (I can't remember ever personally trying
it) that a Rohn EF2545 won't clamp around a 55G leg.  55G legs are just a little larger
than 25 or 45 legs and I suspect you can't use the EF2545 on 55G.  This may be Rohn's
subtle way of trying to make sure you don't overload it . . .

> For the 45G, I used a gin pole that I bought from an individual who makes
> them.  In fact, it was someone recommended on this list, but I can't
> remember his name/call.  Not WB0W.  It clamps around a leg with a very
> sturdy looking "door" that is hinged to a piece of angle.  I can't imagine
> it failing under the load of a single 55G section.  But then I guess I
> don't have any guarantees, and I can't even remember who made it.  Any
> thoughts?

You might have gotten your gin pole attachment from K7PN who make a very strong one,
which incidentally, works on 25, 45, and 55 just fine.  As far as rating is concerned,
it would take a rather large engineering effort to calculate all of the various stresses
on a gin pole to be sure of what its actual rating might be.  K7PN's approach is to just
make it as strong as he can (it is VERY strong) and use it carefully until he has
confidence about what loads it can safely handle.  He has used it to set MANY 55G towers
without any kind of failure.  Paul (K7PN) has made a number of these same gin pole tower
attachments for other people and I have never heard a complaint.  He just made one for
me to replace the one I so generously "gave" to some unknown "friend".  In fact, he made
me two so I can have one to sell.  I will be taking pictures of it and putting them on
my web page in the next couple of weeks.  Standby, I will notify towertalk when the
pictures are up and the pricing is done.

>  If the Rohn gin pole is not supposed to be used for 55G, what
> DO people use, other than a crane?

I hope you get a lot of responses to this question since I am as curious as you are.

> For the actual pole, I used a standard Rohn M200H 10' mast.  Is that going
> to be sufficient for 55G, assuming the mount to the tower is O.K.?

Actaully, an M200H is probably overkill for this application.  They are kind of heavy,
being made of steel.  Most gin pole masts are aluminum.  While I never recommend
aluminum for a permanent tower mast, it seems to be OK for a gin pole if you carefully
control the sideloading so as to make sure it does not fold over.  I HAS happened . . .
For example, you would generally NOT be using a gin pole on a windy day but your
permanent mast has to stand there and take it everyday.  The  M200H is also kind of
short at ten feet.  I think the standard Rohn EF2545 pole is 12 feet long, and made of
aluminum with about 1/8" wall.  I used to use that for the "standard" 25 and 45 jobs
without problems but when I wanted to do something more difficult like set a heavy 20
foot mast, I needed more height for two reasons:  1.  I needed to lift a long load
higher to clear the top of the tower, and 2.  I needed more room at the top to make room
for the double pully of my 3:1 mechanical advantage block and tackle.  For these jobs, I
have a second, 16 foot, 1/4" wall aluminum mast

>  Does
> anyone know the yield strength for the M200H?

I think it is something like 50,000 psi but that is not an official answer from Rohn.

>  And how does one rate the
> safe working load of a gin pole anyway?

This is a good question for Hank, KR7X, who really has the qualifications to answer it.
Just thinking about all of the things that affect the stresses applied to a gin pole
boggles my mind . . .

>  I guess one could calculate the
> breaking point for a perpendicular load at ten feet from the mount.  That
> would seem to be worst case.  Then apply a 5-to-1 safety factor?

But then there is sideloading from pulling at an angle, wind gusts, and the inertia of
the load as the pullers jerk on the pull line . . . and more, I am sure.

> One final thing.  I used rope in the gin pole for the 45G project, but I'm
> seriously considering using some 1/8" aircraft cable that I have on hand.
> It's quite a bit stronger, and I can fit a lot more of it on the
> hand winch.  Anyone see any problems with this?

I see a couple of possible problems.  The cable is much smaller than the rope and
therefore it is much easier to slip off the pully and bind at the pully axle.  This has
happened, too.  The use of the winch makes me a little nervous since it is a little
harder to tell if something is jammed and you are using too much pull on the cable.
This is why I really dislike power winches and especially vehicles pulling things up the
tower.  A power winch with a capstan drive or an adjustable clutch would probably be OK.

> 73,
>
> Tim Totten, n4gn@n4gn.com
> http://www.n4gn.com

Just one set of opinions . . . mine.

You have triggered me to put several questions to my contact at Rohn:

1.  What is the rating on the EF2545?
2.  What do you recommend for a 55G erection fixture?
3.  What is the yield strength of the steel used in an M200H?

It remains to be seen what responses I will get but, whatever they are, I will share
them here.  Stay tuned.

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com




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From n4cc@fdn.com  Sun Jun 17 23:57:40 2001
From: n4cc@fdn.com (Greg - N4CC)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:57:40 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Solvents
Message-ID: <4.1.20010617181301.010c3f10@pop.fdn.com>

I'm not an expert when it comes to antennas or modeling but I've learned
alot about who to believe and who not to believe on this reflector --
because I am a degreed chemist and some of the would-be "experts" who have
attempted to provide information on solvents -- I'm sure with good intent
-- leave a lot to be desired when it comes to scientific truth.  

Any chemical can be dangerous if not treated properly or handled properly.
Conversely, any chemical can be handled properly so statements like "don't
ever use benzene under ANY conditions" are not really credible.  Benzene is
one of the components in what we commonly know as gasoline.  No, the vapors
are not good to breath.  The EPA claims it is a carcinogen...and I wouldn't
soak my hands in it...but I can certainly remember using it in chemistry
lab...and I'm still here to talk about it.  It is a very useful solvent for
some things as well as a chemical building block for industry.

The point is to protect yourself properly.  Use solvents in areas with
proper ventilation and try not to get them on you.  By the way....   1, 1,
1 trichloroethane is an excellent degreaser and could very well be W9RE's
answer to his original question.  
Trichloroethylene is also an excellent degreaser and is commonly used as
dry-cleaning solvent.  
Both of these solvents were in a class that USED to be called "safety
solvent" because of their low flammability.
Either one of them can be used safely but reasonable care should be taken
not to breathe the vapors or expose the chemical to the skin.  Will it hurt
you if you get a small amount on you ... not likely.  More than just
incidental exposure will remove the natural oils from your skin and could
result in a rash.  More than just incidental exposure should be avoided.

Now can we get back to tower-talk subjects...    73 de Greg-N4CC

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From n4kg@juno.com  Sun Jun 17 14:05:02 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:05:02 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] quad ant
Message-ID: <20010617.191654.-71343.1.N4KG@juno.com>

Two Element Quads are fairly easy to install with the
tram method.  Assemble the quad with the elements
parallel to the ground, run the tram line through the
center.  After it is attached, pull the tram line taught
enough to lift the quad to it's normal orientation and
away you go.

BTW,  W4RNL and K7GCO report better performance
with individual feeds vs. the "tie the elements together
and feed 'em all" approach.

Tom  N4KG


________________________________________________________________
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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Mon Jun 18 01:50:41 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:50:41 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] quad ant
References: <20010617.191654.-71343.1.N4KG@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3B2D5061.6C6EECF7@gloryroad.net>

That's how GEM quad tells you to do it.  You first pound a small
diameter pipe in the ground,put the boom over it and position boom and
the spiders with a hose clamps. 

You then align the quad loops and tighen up the hardware.

Easy!

After you get it up, you can attach a rotatable 40M dipole to the same
mast about 1' above the quad boom and parallel to it.  No interaction. 

6 bands one rotor.  Not bad.  Pretty small turning radius.

73 de Brian/K3KO  

n4kg@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Two Element Quads are fairly easy to install with the
> tram method.  Assemble the quad with the elements
> parallel to the ground, run the tram line through the
> center.  After it is attached, pull the tram line taught
> enough to lift the quad to it's normal orientation and
> away you go.
> 
> BTW,  W4RNL and K7GCO report better performance
> with individual feeds vs. the "tie the elements together
> and feed 'em all" approach.
> 
> Tom  N4KG
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
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From johnfarr@ro.com  Mon Jun 18 02:31:00 2001
From: johnfarr@ro.com (John D. Farr)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:31:00 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Solvents
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010617181301.010c3f10@pop.fdn.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJFPCPFEEANMPNPIBOEKICBAA.johnfarr@ro.com>

Greg:
What do you suggest to do with the waste should one of these chemicals be
used?
thanks
John

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Greg - N4CC
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 5:58 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Solvents


I'm not an expert when it comes to antennas or modeling but I've learned
alot about who to believe and who not to believe on this reflector --
because I am a degreed chemist and some of the would-be "experts" who have
attempted to provide information on solvents -- I'm sure with good intent
-- leave a lot to be desired when it comes to scientific truth.

Any chemical can be dangerous if not treated properly or handled properly.
Conversely, any chemical can be handled properly so statements like "don't
ever use benzene under ANY conditions" are not really credible.  Benzene is
one of the components in what we commonly know as gasoline.  No, the vapors
are not good to breath.  The EPA claims it is a carcinogen...and I wouldn't
soak my hands in it...but I can certainly remember using it in chemistry
lab...and I'm still here to talk about it.  It is a very useful solvent for
some things as well as a chemical building block for industry.

The point is to protect yourself properly.  Use solvents in areas with
proper ventilation and try not to get them on you.  By the way....   1, 1,
1 trichloroethane is an excellent degreaser and could very well be W9RE's
answer to his original question.
Trichloroethylene is also an excellent degreaser and is commonly used as
dry-cleaning solvent.
Both of these solvents were in a class that USED to be called "safety
solvent" because of their low flammability.
Either one of them can be used safely but reasonable care should be taken
not to breathe the vapors or expose the chemical to the skin.  Will it hurt
you if you get a small amount on you ... not likely.  More than just
incidental exposure will remove the natural oils from your skin and could
result in a rash.  More than just incidental exposure should be avoided.

Now can we get back to tower-talk subjects...    73 de Greg-N4CC

List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
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HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
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From lclarks@nc.rr.com  Mon Jun 18 01:06:54 2001
From: lclarks@nc.rr.com (Larry Stowell)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:06:54 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Yaesu Rotors
Message-ID: <004201c0f78a$955b25a0$4d131918@nc.rr.com>

Has anybody come up with a rs232 hook up to the G2800???

Larry WA2SRY



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From Paul.Ferguson@pobox.com  Mon Jun 18 03:27:24 2001
From: Paul.Ferguson@pobox.com (Paul Ferguson)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:27:24 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] quad ant
In-Reply-To: <3B2D5061.6C6EECF7@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <3B2D2ECC.2096.DAC85E@localhost>

The installation of the 2-element Lightning Bolt quad is fairly easy. 

You can install the boom on the tower without the 2-elements attached. 
Leave the 2 U-bolts that secure the boom to the mast plate loose enough so 
you can slide the boom thru them.

Slide the boom to one side, pull up one of the elements and push the cap on 
the boom and bolt it on.

Slide the boom so the opposite end of the boom is close to the tower. Pull 
up the other element and bolt it to the boom.

Slide the boom so it is centered on the mast and tighten the U bolts to fix 
the boom to the mounting plate.


73,
Paul
K5ESW 

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From hwardsil@wolfenet.com  Mon Jun 18 03:13:34 2001
From: hwardsil@wolfenet.com (Ward Silver)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 03:13:34 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Solvents
References: <MABBJFPCPFEEANMPNPIBOEKICBAA.johnfarr@ro.com>
Message-ID: <001501c0f79c$493f06c0$11369fce@ward>

Contact your local Fire Department or County Dept. of Ecology (or the
equivalent).  They usually have some kind of process for accepting hazardous
chemicals in small quantities from individuals at no charge.

73, Ward N0AX

----- Original Message -----
From: John D. Farr <johnfarr@ro.com>
To: Greg - N4CC <n4cc@fdn.com>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 2:31 AM
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Solvents


> Greg:
> What do you suggest to do with the waste should one of these chemicals be
> used?
> thanks
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Greg - N4CC
> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 5:58 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Solvents
>
>
> I'm not an expert when it comes to antennas or modeling but I've learned
> alot about who to believe and who not to believe on this reflector --
> because I am a degreed chemist and some of the would-be "experts" who have
> attempted to provide information on solvents -- I'm sure with good intent
> -- leave a lot to be desired when it comes to scientific truth.
>
> Any chemical can be dangerous if not treated properly or handled properly.
> Conversely, any chemical can be handled properly so statements like "don't
> ever use benzene under ANY conditions" are not really credible.  Benzene
is
> one of the components in what we commonly know as gasoline.  No, the
vapors
> are not good to breath.  The EPA claims it is a carcinogen...and I
wouldn't
> soak my hands in it...but I can certainly remember using it in chemistry
> lab...and I'm still here to talk about it.  It is a very useful solvent
for
> some things as well as a chemical building block for industry.
>
> The point is to protect yourself properly.  Use solvents in areas with
> proper ventilation and try not to get them on you.  By the way....   1, 1,
> 1 trichloroethane is an excellent degreaser and could very well be W9RE's
> answer to his original question.
> Trichloroethylene is also an excellent degreaser and is commonly used as
> dry-cleaning solvent.
> Both of these solvents were in a class that USED to be called "safety
> solvent" because of their low flammability.
> Either one of them can be used safely but reasonable care should be taken
> not to breathe the vapors or expose the chemical to the skin.  Will it
hurt
> you if you get a small amount on you ... not likely.  More than just
> incidental exposure will remove the natural oils from your skin and could
> result in a rash.  More than just incidental exposure should be avoided.
>
> Now can we get back to tower-talk subjects...    73 de Greg-N4CC
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
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> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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>
>
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From w0hh@msn.com  Mon Jun 18 04:18:22 2001
From: w0hh@msn.com (Tom Champlin)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:18:22 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Fw: Wind Surface Area
Message-ID: <001d01c0f7a5$5641ef00$fb301a3f@hppav>


----- Original Message -----
From: "w0hh" <w0hh@msn.com>
To: "TowerTalk" <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 9:20 AM
Subject: Wind Surface Area


> To All,
>
> When the "surface area" of an antenna system is calculated, I wonder if
> anyone has ever considered what happens in a heavy rain? You then have the
> wind, AND a heavy rain. Surely this added element must change things.I
don't
> recall seeing comment on this before. Thank you for any information and
have
> a nice Father's Day.
>
> 73, Tom W0HH
>
>
>


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From hwardsil@wolfenet.com  Mon Jun 18 03:20:02 2001
From: hwardsil@wolfenet.com (Ward Silver)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 03:20:02 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] quad ant
References: <20010617.191654.-71343.1.N4KG@juno.com> <3B2D5061.6C6EECF7@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <001f01c0f79d$2f5ca220$11369fce@ward>

That works pretty well for assembly.  The tricky part is then getting it up
to the top of the tower - tram line works OK.

Individual feed is definitely the way to go.  I use an RCS-8V 5-pos remote
coax switch.  On 20/17/15, I have a 1/4-wave matching section of RG-62/U (93
ohm coax) going from the switch to the feedpoint and straight 50-ohm coax on
12 and 10-meters.  You also should have some kind of strain relief for the
cable at the feedpoint to keep the feed from breaking loose as the cable
flops around in the breeze, breaking the #20 solid wire Gem provides.

73, Ward N0AX

----- Original Message -----
From: alsopb <alsopb@gloryroad.net>
To: <n4kg@juno.com>
Cc: <TOWERTALK@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 1:50 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] quad ant


> That's how GEM quad tells you to do it.  You first pound a small
> diameter pipe in the ground,put the boom over it and position boom and
> the spiders with a hose clamps.
>
> You then align the quad loops and tighen up the hardware.
>
> Easy!
>
> After you get it up, you can attach a rotatable 40M dipole to the same
> mast about 1' above the quad boom and parallel to it.  No interaction.
>
> 6 bands one rotor.  Not bad.  Pretty small turning radius.
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>
> n4kg@juno.com wrote:
> >
> > Two Element Quads are fairly easy to install with the
> > tram method.  Assemble the quad with the elements
> > parallel to the ground, run the tram line through the
> > center.  After it is attached, pull the tram line taught
> > enough to lift the quad to it's normal orientation and
> > away you go.
> >
> > BTW,  W4RNL and K7GCO report better performance
> > with individual feeds vs. the "tie the elements together
> > and feed 'em all" approach.
> >
> > Tom  N4KG
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> > Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
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> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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>
> -----
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>


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From edbruns@juno.com  Mon Jun 18 04:50:35 2001
From: edbruns@juno.com (Edward L Bruns)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:50:35 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Weed Whacker Cord.
Message-ID: <20010617.235036.-4118631.7.edbruns@juno.com>

I have used .080" green weed whacker cord to hold up the ends of 
various wires for the last three or four years. I got a 1200 foot spool
from WALL*MART for $9.95 back then. It's holding up very well
in the sunlight, none of it has broken yet.

All my dipoles are supported at the center so there is no coax load
on the stuff. All my wires are some #18 aircraft trailing antenna wire
that I got 35 or 40 years ago...have been using it ever since. None of
it has ever broken either. From the street, the wires &cord are virtually
invisible...hard to see even if you know what to look for.

Ed, W3EKT.
________________________________________________________________
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From n7us@arrl.net  Mon Jun 18 04:51:54 2001
From: n7us@arrl.net (Jim McDonald)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:51:54 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Yaesu Rotors
References: <004201c0f78a$955b25a0$4d131918@nc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c0f7aa$046e1c80$f00add18@phoenix.speedchoice.com>

Besides Yaesu, W9KNI of Bencher may be selling them now.  He had a prototype
at Dayton.  I have a G-2800SDX but don't have the RS-232 (yet).

Jim N7US

----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Stowell" <lclarks@nc.rr.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 5:06 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Yaesu Rotors


Has anybody come up with a rs232 hook up to the G2800???

Larry WA2SRY



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From n4zr@contesting.com  Mon Jun 18 11:59:36 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 06:59:36 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Yaesu Rotors
In-Reply-To: <003c01c0f7aa$046e1c80$f00add18@phoenix.speedchoice.com>
References: <004201c0f78a$955b25a0$4d131918@nc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010618065936.00a1b9b0@mail.abs.adelphia.net>

At 08:51 PM 6/17/01 -0700, N7US wrote:
>Besides Yaesu, W9KNI of Bencher may be selling them now.  He had a prototype
>at Dayton.  I have a G-2800SDX but don't have the RS-232 (yet).
>
>Jim N7US
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Larry Stowell" <lclarks@nc.rr.com>
>To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
>Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 5:06 PM
>Subject: [TowerTalk] Yaesu Rotors
>
>
>Has anybody come up with a rs232 hook up to the G2800???
>

Either the EA4TX controller or the Sartek should work just fine, and they
are a darned sight less expernsive than Yaesu's own.

73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From w5kp@swbell.net  Mon Jun 18 12:33:24 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 06:33:24 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Solvents
References: <4.1.20010617181301.010c3f10@pop.fdn.com>
Message-ID: <000701c0f7ea$7d798de0$4122c1cf@jkdesktop>

Well put, Greg. Thanks for the thoughtful and technically knowledgeable
comments from a professional chemist. With replies on this subject all over
the map, I was beginning to feel badly for ever suggesting 1,1,1
Trichloroethane. I use it - but very carefully, and only when nothing else
will work. It's especially handy in the spray can for things such as
degunking right-angle gear assemblies, gear trains, and such in old radios.
It is such a good degreasing agent one must pay attention to relubing right
away for "rustable" metals. I nearly ruined the trigger/sear mechanism of my
favorite blackpowder rifle several years ago by not paying attention to
that! Back to towers...
73, Jerry W5KP

> By the way....   1, 1,
> 1 trichloroethane is an excellent degreaser and could very well be W9RE's
> answer to his original question.
> Trichloroethylene is also an excellent degreaser and is commonly used as
> dry-cleaning solvent.
> Both of these solvents were in a class that USED to be called "safety
> solvent" because of their low flammability.
> Either one of them can be used safely but reasonable care should be taken
> not to breathe the vapors or expose the chemical to the skin.  Will it
hurt
> you if you get a small amount on you ... not likely.  More than just
> incidental exposure will remove the natural oils from your skin and could
> result in a rash.  More than just incidental exposure should be avoided.
>
> Now can we get back to tower-talk subjects...    73 de Greg-N4CC



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From vr2bg@harts.org.hk  Mon Jun 18 14:30:31 2001
From: vr2bg@harts.org.hk (VR2BrettGraham)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 13:30:31 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Sinking Tower, A Question
In-Reply-To: <200106180349.f5I3nQW03720@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010618132128.00c0e320@pop.asiaonline.net>

N4ZR commented:

>When I lived in Hong Kong in the mid-1960's, the colony's pride and joy was
>the new Ocean Terminal, combining docking for cruise ships with a
>multi-story shopping deck that was mounted above the pier on separate
>columns footed in bedrock.  Imagine the engineers' surprise when they
>realized that the headroom on the pier was diminishing about 6 inches a
>year, as the shopping deck drove its way inexorably down into the bedrock
>(which turned out to be crumbly, decomposed granite).
>
>Not to say that we shouldn't try to anticipate problems and make
>appropriate allowances, but sometimes best efforts fall short.  I think
>Ford has the right idea -- measure what's happening, and if the base is
>indeed sinking, figure out how to spread the load more broadly.  That's
>what they did in HongKong -- put in additional columns.

Unfortunately, it worked - Ocean Terminal remains high & dry... well past the
time that a typical structure here is demolished & redeveloped as the property
market dictates what is built in the first place isn't built as it should 
have been.

New concern is our new airport.  For the moment, some arrivals may seem
like you landed in Macau, but before too long one will hope for flotation 
devices
to be fitted to the 747-400 that brought you here (mandatory if you fly CI 
- or is
that landing gear on top of the fuselage? ;^).

Between Mexico City & HK reclamation practices, one cannot be too careful
about the soil your tower base is sunk into.  Ocean Terminal, like much of
built-up HK, is on reclaimed land.  Bad news!

73, VR2BrettGraham


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From James.E.Brown@lrdor.usace.army.mil  Mon Jun 18 14:43:43 2001
From: James.E.Brown@lrdor.usace.army.mil (Brown, James E LRDOR)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 06:43:43 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] quad ant
Message-ID: <49B1F0812748D211A39100805F9FA681012CE602@lrdormail01.lrd.usace.army.mil>

Actually, 7 bands if you add 6 meter loops.  Lightning Bolt Quads offers an
add-on 6 meter kit.  I put one on mine, and it works fine.  

Jim    W4LC

-----Original Message-----
From: alsopb [mailto:alsopb@gloryroad.net]
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 8:51 PM
To: n4kg@juno.com
Cc: TOWERTALK@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] quad ant


That's how GEM quad tells you to do it.  You first pound a small
diameter pipe in the ground,put the boom over it and position boom and
the spiders with a hose clamps. 

You then align the quad loops and tighen up the hardware.

Easy!

After you get it up, you can attach a rotatable 40M dipole to the same
mast about 1' above the quad boom and parallel to it.  No interaction. 

6 bands one rotor.  Not bad.  Pretty small turning radius.

73 de Brian/K3KO  

n4kg@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Two Element Quads are fairly easy to install with the
> tram method.  Assemble the quad with the elements
> parallel to the ground, run the tram line through the
> center.  After it is attached, pull the tram line taught
> enough to lift the quad to it's normal orientation and
> away you go.
> 
> BTW,  W4RNL and K7GCO report better performance
> with individual feeds vs. the "tie the elements together
> and feed 'em all" approach.
> 
> Tom  N4KG
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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From n4kg@juno.com  Mon Jun 18 18:55:06 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:55:06 -0600
Subject: Fw: Re: [TowerTalk] Ginpole Clarificaton
Message-ID: <20010618.115654.-140915.1.N4KG@juno.com>

My description of placing a Block and Tackle between
the puller and the pull rope was not entirely clear.
The hooks go to the ground and the pull rope.

Here are 3 possibilities for gin pole configurations.

1 - Standard Gin Pole with ONE pulley.  For a 100 lb load,
the downward pressure on the gin pole is 200 lb + friction losses.

2 - Place the B&T between the Gin Pole and the Load which
results in 125 lbs of downward pressure on the gin pole.

3 - Place the B&T between the Ground and the PULL side of
the rope going through the single pulley of the gin pole.  One
block is tied to ground, the other to the pull rope over the pulley
in the gin pole.  Net pulling force is 25 lb but net force on the
gin pole remains at 200 lb plus friction.

Tom  N4KG


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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Mon Jun 18 19:45:44 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:45:44 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] 100 ton "tower" epoxied together
Message-ID: <3B2E4C58.7CDB345A@gloryroad.net>


Any of you questioning the strength of epoxy and pins should read
this.

>From CBS news:

"JERUSALEM (AP) After a thousand years in pieces, an  ancient Roman
obelisk stood proudly again Monday in the seaport of Caesaria.

Weighing more than 100 tons and standing 40 feet high, the obelisk was
once the centerpiece of a Roman hippodrome.....

The obelisk, found in three separate pieces, was put back together
with titanium pins and epoxy glue, said archeologist Yosef Porat."


73 de Brian/K3KO

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From MWapner@Vetronix.com  Mon Jun 18 19:53:53 2001
From: MWapner@Vetronix.com (Mike Wapner)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:53:53 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping
Message-ID: <11CA8AEBA4D7D0119FFF00805F29965D020797E0@EXCHANGE_NT1>

Does anyone know of a good source for copper braid (solder plated or not)
ground strapping?



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From Tony.Seaton@turner.com  Mon Jun 18 20:16:24 2001
From: Tony.Seaton@turner.com (Seaton, Tony )
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:16:24 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping
Message-ID: <5D9A184FEEEDD211A4050000F81FD0E803F94E6E@cnncmx04.turner.com>

old coax

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Wapner [mailto:MWapner@Vetronix.com]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 2:54 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping


Does anyone know of a good source for copper braid (solder plated or not)
ground strapping?



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From K7LXC@aol.com  Mon Jun 18 20:29:57 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:29:57 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping
Message-ID: <4c.16e1b9d6.285fb0b5@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/18/01 12:01:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
MWapner@Vetronix.com writes:

> Does anyone know of a good source for copper braid (solder plated or not)
>  ground strapping?
>  
    Braid is not used in commercial ground systems and is not recommended for 
this type of application. One problem is that as the rain runs down the tower 
leg it picks up some zinc which is deposited in the braid and contributes to 
rapid braid deterioration. Also the strands of the braid oxidize individually 
so it loses overall conductivity which increases the resistance over time 
which is exactly what you are trying to avoid.

    Use copper strap or solid copper wire for ground systems, not braid. 

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From w7why@harborside.com  Sat Jun  2 20:04:51 2001
From: w7why@harborside.com (Tom Osborne)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 12:04:51 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Beam elements
Message-ID: <3B1938D3.7B2C2724@harborside.com>


Hi All

I'm going to build a tri-bander using a cell type driven
element.  If I feed the 20 meter element, do the 10 and 15 meter
elements have to be insulated from the boom?  Thanks
Tom W7WHY

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From w0yg@prolynx.com  Mon Jun 18 22:28:18 2001
From: w0yg@prolynx.com (Charlie Summers)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:28:18 -0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Drilling Chrome-Moly Steel
Message-ID: <00f901c0f83d$97c77a60$6380a8c0@950MHz>

Can someone please tell me what type of drill bit I need to drill out a
5/16" diameter hole in my existing 2" mast with 3/8" wall.  I want to go to
5/8 if possible but the mast may just be too hard.

I would rather stay away from the real expensive, like $150.00, drill bits,
instead preferring to use several say cobalt tipped or titanium tipped or
some kind of hardened steel bit.

I have looked at McMaster-Carr's catalog and see what they recommend in
print but was hoping someone would be able to give me guidance based on
experience.

The other hooker is I have to drill this on the top of a tower so staying
there for hours will not be pleasant, especially with a heavy half inch
drill.

This is a rather personal request on a Tower-Talk related subject so
personal replies might be in order to:  w0yg@prolynx.com

Thanks and 73,

Charlie, W0YG..>>



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From n9iww2@verizon.net  Mon Jun 18 23:50:24 2001
From: n9iww2@verizon.net (Kevin Adam, Webz By design)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:50:24 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Drilling Chrome-Moly Steel
In-Reply-To: <00f901c0f83d$97c77a60$6380a8c0@950MHz>
Message-ID: <000401c0f849$10daf520$13a60304@n9iww>

Go To Your local Rental Place and rent what is called a Mag drill
meaning it has a magnetic base that you can turn on the magnet it will
hold it's self fast to the steel but its heavy to lift but after you
mount it turn on the magnet all you have to do is rotate the press
handle to drill it to your size you want
They use these on steel I beams and heavy drilling in metal fab shops.
 Do not I repeat do not use a very hard drill bit on hardened steel
plain high speed twist drill bit by Cleveland twist drill works just
fine 
The rule of thumb for metals is hardened metal use soft metal to cut it
Lots of oil or coolant keep bit cool.
Must be a sharp bit. Like prefer new.
  

N9IWW
Kevin Adam
1239 W. Till Rd.
Fort Wayne IN. 46825
219-490-7312
http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
n9iww@mail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Summers
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 4:28 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Drilling Chrome-Moly Steel

Can someone please tell me what type of drill bit I need to drill out a
5/16" diameter hole in my existing 2" mast with 3/8" wall.  I want to go
to
5/8 if possible but the mast may just be too hard.

I would rather stay away from the real expensive, like $150.00, drill
bits,
instead preferring to use several say cobalt tipped or titanium tipped
or
some kind of hardened steel bit.

I have looked at McMaster-Carr's catalog and see what they recommend in
print but was hoping someone would be able to give me guidance based on
experience.

The other hooker is I have to drill this on the top of a tower so
staying
there for hours will not be pleasant, especially with a heavy half inch
drill.

This is a rather personal request on a Tower-Talk related subject so
personal replies might be in order to:  w0yg@prolynx.com

Thanks and 73,

Charlie, W0YG..>>



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From Roger Borowski" <K9RB@arrl.net  Tue Jun 19 00:02:10 2001
From: Roger Borowski" <K9RB@arrl.net (Roger Borowski)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:02:10 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping
References: <4c.16e1b9d6.285fb0b5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <025201c0f84a$b4a8bec0$0200a8c0@rbmain>

Where did he say that he intended to use it outdoors?
It makes perfect sense to use braid connecting all indoor equipment grounds to a
common buss attached to the single point ground at the entrance panel. Its far
easier and more reliable than any other method I know of for equipment grounding
"jumpers."
Cheers! -=Roger-K9RB=-

----- Original Message -----
From: <K7LXC@aol.com>
To: <MWapner@vetronix.com>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping


> In a message dated 6/18/01 12:01:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> MWapner@Vetronix.com writes:
>
> > Does anyone know of a good source for copper braid (solder plated or not)
> >  ground strapping?
> >
>     Braid is not used in commercial ground systems and is not recommended for
> this type of application. One problem is that as the rain runs down the tower
> leg it picks up some zinc which is deposited in the braid and contributes to
> rapid braid deterioration. Also the strands of the braid oxidize individually
> so it loses overall conductivity which increases the resistance over time
> which is exactly what you are trying to avoid.
>
>     Use copper strap or solid copper wire for ground systems, not braid.
>
> Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
> Tower Tech
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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>
>



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From n3rr@erols.com  Mon Jun 18 23:52:42 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:52:42 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Drilling Chrome-Moly Steel
References: <00f901c0f83d$97c77a60$6380a8c0@950MHz>
Message-ID: <002d01c0f849$629e0c80$3b072c42@billspiii>

I used my DeWalt 12Volt XR, battery-powered drill while on the tower @ 134
feet to drill into  a chrome-molly
3/16 inch thick, 2" O.D. mast. First, I drilled a pilot hole of approx 1/8
inch with a "used" 1/8 inch drill bit I had laying around the house, then  I
used a new 1/4 inch carbon steel drill bit (about $2.50).  I noticed nothing
strange or peculiar about drilling this mast except, perhaps, that it took a
little longer due to its strength, but the drill bits worked fine with the
DeWalt drill.

BTW, the purpose of the hole was for a 1/4 inch stainless steel
through-bolt/locknut "set screw" to keep the boom-to-mast-plate on my
EF-180C ( F12 80M rotatable dipole) from turning on the mast in the wind.

Bill, N3RR

----- Original Message -----
From: Charlie Summers <w0yg@prolynx.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 10:28 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Drilling Chrome-Moly Steel


> Can someone please tell me what type of drill bit I need to drill out a
> 5/16" diameter hole in my existing 2" mast with 3/8" wall.  I want to go
to
> 5/8 if possible but the mast may just be too hard.
>
> I would rather stay away from the real expensive, like $150.00, drill
bits,
> instead preferring to use several say cobalt tipped or titanium tipped or
> some kind of hardened steel bit.
>
> I have looked at McMaster-Carr's catalog and see what they recommend in
> print but was hoping someone would be able to give me guidance based on
> experience.
>
> The other hooker is I have to drill this on the top of a tower so staying
> there for hours will not be pleasant, especially with a heavy half inch
> drill.
>
> This is a rather personal request on a Tower-Talk related subject so
> personal replies might be in order to:  w0yg@prolynx.com
>
> Thanks and 73,
>
> Charlie, W0YG..>>
>
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>


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From Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net  Tue Jun 19 01:01:22 2001
From: Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net (Kevin Hemsley)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:01:22 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping
References: <4c.16e1b9d6.285fb0b5@aol.com> <025201c0f84a$b4a8bec0$0200a8c0@rbmain>
Message-ID: <06a901c0f852$f9ee61d0$d5cbe4cc@kevin>

I have always considered braided strap attached to copper tubing or a flat
copper buss to be the preferred method of grounding equipment.  Although I
did find the notes on grounding in my Ameritron AL-80B manual interesting:

"The best materials to use for ground connections are (in order of
effectiveness) smooth wide copper flashing, copper tubing, or solid copper
wire. NEVER USE BRAIDED OR WOVEN CONDUCTORS UNLESS THE LEAD NEEDS TO BE
FLEXED.  Braided or woven conductors offer a much higher impedance to
lightning and RF than equivalent solid conductors."

The "NEVER USE BRAIDED OR WOVEN CONDUCTORS"  part caught me off guard  the
first time I read it.  It kind of "shook my faith" as it were, as my brain
stopped paying attention before my eyes got to the "UNLESS THE LEAD NEEDS TO
BE FLEXED." part.  I had never considered braided ground straps to be
inferior to solid copper wire for grounding.  I had also never considered
that there might be a measurable impedance in braided ground strapping when
compared to solid wire.  I am curious to hear what others thoughts are on
the matter.  Does it really make a noticeable difference to use solid wire
as opposed to braided strapping?

Also, does anyone have any thoughts on using a flat copper common buss, as
opposed to copper tubing?

----------------------------------
Kevin Hemsley
kev@ida.net
KB7TYA



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From w3svj@juno.com  Tue Jun 19 01:42:16 2001
From: w3svj@juno.com (w3svj@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:42:16 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Drilling Chrome-Moly Steel
Message-ID: <20010618.204219.-209815.0.W3SVJ@juno.com>

Be careful of the "mag drill", they don't like round surfaces such as a
pipe! The magnet will
really "clunk" down and work almost like a drill press on flat steel, but
not very good on a smaller round surface.

73 de W3SVJ
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From kk9a@arrl.net  Tue Jun 19 01:47:22 2001
From: kk9a@arrl.net (kk9a@arrl.net)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:47:22 -0500
Subject: Fw: [TowerTalk] Drilling Chrome-Moly Steel  w0yg@prolynx.com
Message-ID: <002601c0f859$67c1b620$e75b70d1@kk9a>

In a machine shop I used to drill 4140 Chrome-Moly with regular
High Speed Steel drill bits.  This was in a drill press, I know that it's
a lot tougher with a hand drill on a tower.  I still think a regular HSS
drill should work for you.  Be careful not to run it too fast and work
harden the surface and also use a cutting oil.
73,
John

-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie Summers
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Sent: 6/18/2001 4:28 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Drilling Chrome-Moly Steel

Can someone please tell me what type of drill bit I need to drill out a
5/16" diameter hole in my existing 2" mast with 3/8" wall.  I want to go
to
5/8 if possible but the mast may just be too hard.

I would rather stay away from the real expensive, like $150.00, drill
bits,
instead preferring to use several say cobalt tipped or titanium tipped
or
some kind of hardened steel bit.

I have looked at McMaster-Carr's catalog and see what they recommend in
print but was hoping someone would be able to give me guidance based on
experience.

The other hooker is I have to drill this on the top of a tower so
staying
there for hours will not be pleasant, especially with a heavy half inch
drill.

This is a rather personal request on a Tower-Talk related subject so
personal replies might be in order to:  w0yg@prolynx.com

Thanks and 73,

Charlie, W0YG..>>



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to
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www.ChampionRadio.com</A>

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From dxdog@rcn.com  Tue Jun 19 01:52:24 2001
From: dxdog@rcn.com (Jerry Keller)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:52:24 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping
References: <11CA8AEBA4D7D0119FFF00805F29965D020797E0@EXCHANGE_NT1>
Message-ID: <00bb01c0f85a$1b587160$28623bd0@z7r0l6>

If you decide to use solid copper strap instead of braid, you can get some
nice flat solid copper by slicing a piece of copper water pipe lengthwise
and flattening it out.... I've used a Dremel tool with a rotary blade, but
there are other ways.... a little work, but in some locations it's faster
and easier than looking for a local strap source. GL...Jerry K3MGT

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Wapner <MWapner@Vetronix.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 2:53 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping


> Does anyone know of a good source for copper braid (solder plated or not)
> ground strapping?
>
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>


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From w5kp@swbell.net  Tue Jun 19 02:30:58 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:30:58 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping
References: <11CA8AEBA4D7D0119FFF00805F29965D020797E0@EXCHANGE_NT1>
 <00bb01c0f85a$1b587160$28623bd0@z7r0l6>
Message-ID: <006c01c0f85f$7f2cd500$3ed8da40@jkdesktop>

Copper roofing is all the rage for commercial buildings and some high-end
private residences, so my local scrap metal dealer always has a bunch of
leftover pieces on hand from the commercial roofers, who sell him all their
copper roofing scraps. I buy it for $1 a pound, and 5 pounds is a lot of
copper roofing, in pieces 6"-12" wide and 3 to 4 feet long. Cutting it with
tin snips works fine, but will leave an edge you could shave with, so
getting it roller-cut into 1" strips or whatever at a sheetmetal shop might
be a good idea. I just clamped the strips between two pieces of wood in a
vise and cleaned the dangerous edges up with a file. Took a few minutes, but
no big deal. That was one of the several times I wished I had a power
nibbler. I saw a 100' roll of 2" at HamCom in Dallas, the guy wanted $150
for it.  Sheesh.
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Keller <dxdog@rcn.com>
To: Mike Wapner <MWapner@Vetronix.com>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping


> If you decide to use solid copper strap instead of braid, you can get some
> nice flat solid copper by slicing a piece of copper water pipe lengthwise
> and flattening it out.... I've used a Dremel tool with a rotary blade, but
> there are other ways.... a little work, but in some locations it's faster
> and easier than looking for a local strap source. GL...Jerry K3MGT
>



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From K7GCO@aol.com  Tue Jun 19 04:00:58 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:00:58 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping
Message-ID: <12a.37a7d6.28601a6a@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/18/01 6:33:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, w5kp@swbell.net 
writes:<< 
    Copper roofing is all the rage for commercial buildings and some high-end
 private residences, so my local scrap metal dealer always has a bunch of
 leftover pieces on hand from the commercial roofers, who sell him all their
 copper roofing scraps. I buy it for $1 a pound, and 5 pounds is a lot of
 copper roofing, in pieces 6"-12" wide and 3 to 4 feet long. Cutting it with
 tin snips works fine, but will leave an edge you could shave with, so
 getting it roller-cut into 1" strips or whatever at a sheetmetal shop might
 be a good idea. I just clamped the strips between two pieces of wood in a
 vise and cleaned the dangerous edges up with a file. Took a few minutes, but
 no big deal. That was one of the several times I wished I had a power
 nibbler. I saw a 100' roll of 2" at HamCom in Dallas, the guy wanted $150
 for it.  Sheesh.
 73, Jerry W5KP
  >>
A local radio store here called Supertronics has copper sheet 6" wide on a 
roll fairly cheap.  This would good to lay right on the radio table then run 
outside--into the ground without any connections.  Take a post hole digger 
and dig a hole say 6-8' deep.  Run this foil into the hole and pack the dirt 
in around it. You will have 6 sq ft of area in contact with the ground.  With 
a ground rod you have only about 1 sq ft. It's easy to solder any other wires 
to it also and there is no change of inductance.  This foil in the ground 
would be a great way to make a ground for a tower also.

In the 30's it can be seen in old ARRL Antenna Handbooks where they used 
copper broilers they used for boiling cloths in for buried grounds.  There 
was at least 15 sq ft of copper area--on both sides.  That's what I call a 
"MAGNUM GROUND."
I used to buy copper sheet 3' wide 35' long from Alaska Copper and Brass here 
in Seattle also.  I'd cut strips of copper that I coated with contact cement 
and the element and wrapped it around the elements to eliminate joints and 
increase conductivity. I rotated it slowly in the lathe and wrapped it with 
plastic tape.  Shrink on tubing is too expensive.  It's a "Higher Q Permanent 
Element."  It lowered the Z of the beam.  Someday I'll "Silver Plate" the 
copper sheet and lower the RF resistance even more.  k7gco  

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From k4bet@bellsouth.net  Tue Jun 19 04:09:05 2001
From: k4bet@bellsouth.net (Paul McInnish - K4BET)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:09:05 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping
References: <12a.37a7d6.28601a6a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004001c0f86d$335a1800$6401a8c0@PawPawsPC>

I would suggest one correction to a comment made and I quote:  "It's easy to
solder any other wires...."!  Please, never solder any grounds!  The low
melting point of solder will cause the joint to disintegrate extremely
rapidly with a very small surge of lightning.  Then NO ground protection!

Use clamps and good strong compression fittings designed for the purpose!


----- Original Message -----
From: <K7GCO@aol.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>; <w5kp@swbell.net>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping


| In a message dated 6/18/01 6:33:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
w5kp@swbell.net
| writes:<<
|     Copper roofing is all the rage for commercial buildings and some
high-end
|  private residences, so my local scrap metal dealer always has a bunch of
|  leftover pieces on hand from the commercial roofers, who sell him all
their
|  copper roofing scraps. I buy it for $1 a pound, and 5 pounds is a lot of
|  copper roofing, in pieces 6"-12" wide and 3 to 4 feet long. Cutting it
with
|  tin snips works fine, but will leave an edge you could shave with, so
|  getting it roller-cut into 1" strips or whatever at a sheetmetal shop
might
|  be a good idea. I just clamped the strips between two pieces of wood in a
|  vise and cleaned the dangerous edges up with a file. Took a few minutes,
but
|  no big deal. That was one of the several times I wished I had a power
|  nibbler. I saw a 100' roll of 2" at HamCom in Dallas, the guy wanted $150
|  for it.  Sheesh.
|  73, Jerry W5KP
|   >>
| A local radio store here called Supertronics has copper sheet 6" wide on a
| roll fairly cheap.  This would good to lay right on the radio table then
run
| outside--into the ground without any connections.  Take a post hole digger
| and dig a hole say 6-8' deep.  Run this foil into the hole and pack the
dirt
| in around it. You will have 6 sq ft of area in contact with the ground.
With
| a ground rod you have only about 1 sq ft. It's easy to solder any other
wires
| to it also and there is no change of inductance.  This foil in the ground
| would be a great way to make a ground for a tower also.
|
| In the 30's it can be seen in old ARRL Antenna Handbooks where they used
| copper broilers they used for boiling cloths in for buried grounds.  There
| was at least 15 sq ft of copper area--on both sides.  That's what I call a
| "MAGNUM GROUND."
| I used to buy copper sheet 3' wide 35' long from Alaska Copper and Brass
here
| in Seattle also.  I'd cut strips of copper that I coated with contact
cement
| and the element and wrapped it around the elements to eliminate joints and
| increase conductivity. I rotated it slowly in the lathe and wrapped it
with
| plastic tape.  Shrink on tubing is too expensive.  It's a "Higher Q
Permanent
| Element."  It lowered the Z of the beam.  Someday I'll "Silver Plate" the
| copper sheet and lower the RF resistance even more.  k7gco
|
| List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
| for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
| 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
| www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
|
| -----
| FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
| Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
| Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
| Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
|



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From K7GCO@aol.com  Tue Jun 19 05:13:34 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 00:13:34 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping
Message-ID: <36.17744fda.28602b6e@aol.com>

Very good point below.  I didn't mention I used 2 brass screws also which 
also soldered nicely.  I also suggsted one continuous 6" wide strip all the 
way across the desk and out to the bottom of the ground hole.  k7gco

In a message dated 6/18/01 8:13:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
k4bet@bellsouth.net writes:
<< I would suggest one correction to a comment made and I quote:  "It's easy 
to
 solder any other wires...."!  Please, never solder any grounds!  The low
 melting point of solder will cause the joint to disintegrate extremely
 rapidly with a very small surge of lightning.  Then NO ground protection!
 
 Use clamps and good strong compression fittings designed for the purpose!
 
 
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: <K7GCO@aol.com>
 To: <towertalk@contesting.com>; <w5kp@swbell.net>
 Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 11:00 PM
 Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping
 
 
 | In a message dated 6/18/01 6:33:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
 w5kp@swbell.net
 | writes:<<
 |     Copper roofing is all the rage for commercial buildings and some
 high-end
 |  private residences, so my local scrap metal dealer always has a bunch of
 |  leftover pieces on hand from the commercial roofers, who sell him all
 their
 |  copper roofing scraps. I buy it for $1 a pound, and 5 pounds is a lot of
 |  copper roofing, in pieces 6"-12" wide and 3 to 4 feet long. Cutting it
 with
 |  tin snips works fine, but will leave an edge you could shave with, so
 |  getting it roller-cut into 1" strips or whatever at a sheetmetal shop
 might
 |  be a good idea. I just clamped the strips between two pieces of wood in a
 |  vise and cleaned the dangerous edges up with a file. Took a few minutes,
 but
 |  no big deal. That was one of the several times I wished I had a power
 |  nibbler. I saw a 100' roll of 2" at HamCom in Dallas, the guy wanted $150
 |  for it.  Sheesh.
 |  73, Jerry W5KP
 |   >>
 | A local radio store here called Supertronics has copper sheet 6" wide on a
 | roll fairly cheap.  This would good to lay right on the radio table then
 run
 | outside--into the ground without any connections.  Take a post hole digger
 | and dig a hole say 6-8' deep.  Run this foil into the hole and pack the
 dirt
 | in around it. You will have 6 sq ft of area in contact with the ground.
 With
 | a ground rod you have only about 1 sq ft. It's easy to solder any other
 wires
 | to it also and there is no change of inductance.  This foil in the ground
 | would be a great way to make a ground for a tower also.
 |
 | In the 30's it can be seen in old ARRL Antenna Handbooks where they used
 | copper broilers they used for boiling cloths in for buried grounds.  There
 | was at least 15 sq ft of copper area--on both sides.  That's what I call a
 | "MAGNUM GROUND."
 | I used to buy copper sheet 3' wide 35' long from Alaska Copper and Brass
 here
 | in Seattle also.  I'd cut strips of copper that I coated with contact
 cement
 | and the element and wrapped it around the elements to eliminate joints and
 | increase conductivity. I rotated it slowly in the lathe and wrapped it
 with
 | plastic tape.  Shrink on tubing is too expensive.  It's a "Higher Q
 Permanent
 | Element."  It lowered the Z of the beam.  Someday I'll "Silver Plate" the
 | copper sheet and lower the RF resistance even more.  k7gco
 |
 | List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
 us
 | for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
 to
 | 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
 </A> >>

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From K7GCO@aol.com  Tue Jun 19 05:17:26 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 00:17:26 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping
Message-ID: <8d.82db30c.28602c56@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/18/01 8:14:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
k4bet@bellsouth.net writes:

<< I would suggest one correction to a comment made and I quote:  "It's easy 
to
 solder any other wires...."!  Please, never solder any grounds!  The low
 melting point of solder will cause the joint to disintegrate extremely
 rapidly with a very small surge of lightning.  Then NO ground protection!
 
 Use clamps and good strong compression fittings designed for the purpose!
  >>
Very good point and I just pointed out I used 2 brass screws and then solder 
any heavy wire to the copper strip inside the shack.  k7gco

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From b_bradfield@yahoo.com  Tue Jun 19 13:42:34 2001
From: b_bradfield@yahoo.com (Brad Bradfield)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 05:42:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping
In-Reply-To: <004001c0f86d$335a1800$6401a8c0@PawPawsPC>
Message-ID: <20010619124234.9553.qmail@web10008.mail.yahoo.com>


Common practice in broadcast ground systems is to use only silver
solder on the ground bus.  This must be the "hard" silver solder as
used in air conditioning systems, not the "soft" stuff that's more like
standard tin-lead solder.  It looks like brazing rod and requires
acetelyne or MAP gas to melt.  I have probably 3/4 pound of the stuff
if anyone's interested.

73,

Brad, W5CGH

===========================

--- Paul McInnish - K4BET <k4bet@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> I would suggest one correction to a comment made and I quote:  "It's
> easy to
> solder any other wires...."!  Please, never solder any grounds!  The
> low
> melting point of solder will cause the joint to disintegrate
> extremely
> rapidly with a very small surge of lightning.  Then NO ground
> protection!
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more.
http://buzz.yahoo.com/

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From Mike" <W4EF@dellroy.com  Tue Jun 19 15:08:59 2001
From: Mike" <W4EF@dellroy.com (Mike)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 07:08:59 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Drilling Chrome-Moly Steel
References: <002601c0f859$67c1b620$e75b70d1@kk9a>
Message-ID: <04f001c0f8c9$636d5b40$6401a8c0@neptune>

About a year ago, I drilled and pinned a 2" chrome moly mast on the
tower (70') for the local club station. We used a Makita cordless 
drill and some brand new HSS bits. I was pleasantly surprised at 
how quickly we were able to penetrate the moly tubing (5 to 10 
minutes).If you use a cordless drill make sure you battery is fully
charged, or that you have a spare battery around. We drilled several
holes and had to change batteries in the middle of the job. 

73 de Mike, W4EF.......................

P.S. Make sure you buy good drill bits from a industrial supply house 
like MSC or McMaster Carr. The cheap import bits you find floating
around the home supply stores probably aren't up to the job. 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <kk9a@arrl.net>
To: <w0yg@prolynx.com>; <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 5:47 PM
Subject: Fw: [TowerTalk] Drilling Chrome-Moly Steel w0yg@prolynx.com


> In a machine shop I used to drill 4140 Chrome-Moly with regular
> High Speed Steel drill bits.  This was in a drill press, I know that it's
> a lot tougher with a hand drill on a tower.  I still think a regular HSS
> drill should work for you.  Be careful not to run it too fast and work
> harden the surface and also use a cutting oil.
> 73,
> John
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charlie Summers
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Sent: 6/18/2001 4:28 PM
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Drilling Chrome-Moly Steel
> 
> Can someone please tell me what type of drill bit I need to drill out a
> 5/16" diameter hole in my existing 2" mast with 3/8" wall.  I want to go
> to
> 5/8 if possible but the mast may just be too hard.
> 
> I would rather stay away from the real expensive, like $150.00, drill
> bits,
> instead preferring to use several say cobalt tipped or titanium tipped
> or
> some kind of hardened steel bit.
> 
> I have looked at McMaster-Carr's catalog and see what they recommend in
> print but was hoping someone would be able to give me guidance based on
> experience.
> 
> The other hooker is I have to drill this on the top of a tower so
> staying
> there for hours will not be pleasant, especially with a heavy half inch
> drill.
> 
> This is a rather personal request on a Tower-Talk related subject so
> personal replies might be in order to:  w0yg@prolynx.com
> 
> Thanks and 73,
> 
> Charlie, W0YG..>>
> 
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
> Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
> to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> 
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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> 


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From pp5jr@unetsul.com.br  Tue Jun 19 23:55:39 2001
From: pp5jr@unetsul.com.br (pp5jr)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 19:55:39 -0300
Subject: [TowerTalk] about 15m stacks
Message-ID: <008d01c0f912$f817a2c0$f3fef7c8@computer>

HELLO ALL FROM TOWERTALK,
I'D LIKE TO RECIVE SOME COMENTS ABOUT A NEW PROJECT:
I HAVE A H FRAME FOR 10 METERS 5 OVER 5, PLUS 5 OVER 5, ROTABLE. NOW I'D
LIKE TO PUT THE SAME SYSTEM FOR 15 METERS, BUT FIXED TO EUROPE.
MY  QUESTION IS :WHICH IS THE BEST CHOICE,  PUT 4 ANTENNAS 5 EL EACH ONE AT
THE SAME TOWER 5/5/5/5 OR USE THE SHAPE OF A H FRAME USING 2 TOWERS, OR 2
LEGS PUT 5 OVER 5 AND IN THE OTHER SIDE 5 OVER 5, ONE WAVE LENGTH THE
SEPARATION BETWEEN THE ANTENNAS.
I'LL APRECIATE SOME INFORMATIONS,
SERGIO PP5JR ALSO ZX5J



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From kg5u@hal-pc.org  Wed Jun 20 01:35:00 2001
From: kg5u@hal-pc.org (Dale L Martin)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 19:35:00 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] FW: National Lightning Safety Awareness Week
Message-ID: <LPBBJJHKFOOEGKEBKHOJKEADDEAA.kg5u@hal-pc.org>

Our emergency preparedness officer at work sent this to everyone at work
today.  I thought it might be worth sharing.

If it's inappropriate for the reflector, I apologize.  I have a tower and I
am concerned about lightning and it's proximity to my tower, my house, my
radios and me.

73,
dale, kg5u


> >
> > Did you know there was a National Lightning Safety Awareness Week?  Did
> > you know it is THIS week?  We've had a couple of incidents over
> the years
> > where a better understanding of how to be safe when lightning threatens
> > would have been helpful.
> >
> > The web links provided by the Spaceflight Meteorology Group (SMG) in the
> > note below make it easy for all of us to come to grips with lightning
> > safety this week.  The links are listed by separate days of the week so
> > you can read a little of the awareness literature each day this
> week (I'm
> > a day late, so you might have to read two sections today).  Or, if you
> > have a keen interest or want to read ahead in case there's a test on
> > Friday, you can visit all the links on a single day!  Consider
> mixing the
> > days up as you visit the links - who would know?
> >
> > As a last resort, the SMG folks have compiled a terrific
> lightning safety
> > briefing suitable for presentation to your work group that exposes a lot
> > of myths and provides accurate facts about lightning.  For example, did
> > you know that lightning doesn't always strike the tallest object around?
> > This is all good information to share with your coworkers, family and
> > community groups.  The SMG web site is on the internal JSC web
> but all the
> > other links are accessible from any Internet capable PC at home
> or in your
> > community library.
> >
> > Good luck and stay safe!
> >
> >
> > Bob Gaffney
> > JA17/Emergency Preparedness Manager
> >
> > ------------
> >
> >
> > National Lightning Safety Awareness Week is June 18-22, sponsored by the
> > National Weather Service (NWS).
> > http://www.LightningSafety.noaa.gov
> >
> > Lightning is the #2 storm killer in the U.S., killing more than
> tornadoes
> > and hurricanes combined.
> >
> > Each day of Lightning Safety Awareness Week has a theme.   Please
> > reference http://www.LightningSafety.noaa.gov for more information:
> >
> > Monday..........Lightning Overview
> > http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/overview.htm
> > Tuesday.........The Science of Lightning
> > http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/science.htm
> > Wednesday.....Lightning Safety Outdoors
> > http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/outdoors.htm
> > Thursday.........Lightning Safety Indoors
> > http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/indoors.htm
> > Friday.............Medical Impacts of Lightning
> > http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm
> >
> >
> > SMG Weather Safety Page:
> > http://www.srh.noaa.gov/smg/safety.htm
> >
> >
> > NWS Spaceflight Meteorology Group
> > NASA/JSC
> > http://www.srh.noaa.gov/smg
> >
>


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From sloss@mindspring.com  Wed Jun 20 02:42:59 2001
From: sloss@mindspring.com (Joe Sloss)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 18:42:59 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] 2m 3L Quad
Message-ID: <001b01c0f92a$58e63b40$622079a5@sonshineiii>

A friend of mine has a old commercially made 3L 2m quad with the feed point
at the end of the DE spreader which is currently set up in a "diamond"
configuration.  The feed point cannot be changed.  The R, DE, and D
spreaders are secured w/ set screws and can be rotated around the boom.
What element configuration is required in order to insure horizontal, rather
than vertical, polarization for 2m SSB.  Thanks for input.  Joe K7MKS


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From nielsen@oz.net  Wed Jun 20 06:17:00 2001
From: nielsen@oz.net (Bob Nielsen)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 22:17:00 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] 2m 3L Quad
In-Reply-To: <001b01c0f92a$58e63b40$622079a5@sonshineiii>
Message-ID: <20010619221700.A8621@oz.net>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 06:42:59PM -0700, Joe Sloss wrote:
> A friend of mine has a old commercially made 3L 2m quad with the feed point
> at the end of the DE spreader which is currently set up in a "diamond"
> configuration.  The feed point cannot be changed.  The R, DE, and D
> spreaders are secured w/ set screws and can be rotated around the boom.
> What element configuration is required in order to insure horizontal, rather
> than vertical, polarization for 2m SSB.  Thanks for input.  Joe K7MKS

For horizontal polaration on a diamond quad, the feed to the DE should
be at the end of one of the vertical spreaders.  If the reflector and
director are assymetrical (e.g., there is a stub at one corner) that
should also be aligned with a vertical spreader.  It doesn't matter
whether you choose top or bottom, however.

Bob, N7XY

-- 
Bob Nielsen, N7XY                          nielsen@oz.net
Bainbridge Island, WA                      http://www.oz.net/~nielsen
IOTA NA-065, USI WA-028S 

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From bradj1@cswnet.com  Wed Jun 20 15:33:34 2001
From: bradj1@cswnet.com (Brad Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:33:34 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Need help locating Rohn BXB 7-8
Message-ID: <007601c0f995$fcbd94a0$28b188d1@v4xh0>

I want to move a Rohn HDBX48 tower, but am having difficulty locating the
base stubs (BXB 7-8). Apparently, the HX series and parts have been
discontinued, and I would rather not jackhammer the stubs out, or set  four
feet of the tower in concrete if I can avoid it.Thanks in advance.

73,

Brad Johnson
AA5CH


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From hwardsil@WOLFENET.com  Wed Jun 20 15:40:27 2001
From: hwardsil@WOLFENET.com (Ward Silver)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 07:40:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] Need help locating Rohn BXB 7-8
In-Reply-To: <007601c0f995$fcbd94a0$28b188d1@v4xh0>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.1010620073804.20131E-100000@gonzo.wolfenet.com>

> I want to move a Rohn HDBX48 tower, but am having difficulty locating the
> base stubs (BXB 7-8). Apparently, the HX series and parts have been
> discontinued, and I would rather not jackhammer the stubs out, or set  four
> feet of the tower in concrete if I can avoid it.Thanks in advance.
> Brad Johnson
> AA5CH

When I moved HDBX48, I didn't get the base, either.  I used pipe as the
stubs, choosing an OD that allowed the bolts to pull tight against the
inside of the lowest section without deforming the legs.  This has worked
fine (thus far).

The only problem I've had was that water got into the pipes (my fault) and
had to be siphoned out.  Put a cap on the pipes or fill them with cement
(after you put the bolts in).

73, Ward N0AX


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From bradj1@cswnet.com  Wed Jun 20 17:58:17 2001
From: bradj1@cswnet.com (Brad Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:58:17 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Need help locating Rohn BXB 7-8
Message-ID: <00cc01c0f9aa$34488ba0$28b188d1@v4xh0>

Thanks for the replies. A parallel inquiry to Rohn quickly produced results.
Jeff Moran at Rohn responded to my email within minutes and gave me the
number of a distributor, Thomas Shelby Company, that had some in stock. The
individual at Thomas Shelby indicated that they, in cooperation with Rohn,
MAY reintroduce the otherwise discontinued HX series of towers.

73 and thanks,

Brad
AA5CH


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From asfco@nycap.rr.com  Wed Jun 20 18:27:36 2001
From: asfco@nycap.rr.com (asfco)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:27:36 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pulley wheel (Sheave)replacements
Message-ID: <3B30DD08.E1CF87EA@nycap.rr.com>

Here is what I found out regarding replacement sheaves for the EZ Way
tower.
     First off,  Jim at Applied Mechanical Devices  was of little help,
He did fax me a sheet of their available sheaves but this was only a
copy out of the Mcmaster-Carr Catalog.
  Sava Industries of NJ who specialize in wire rope sheaves do not have
anything close to the size needed....I discovered that the sheaves are
all too thick for the application on an EZ Way Tower. US Tower was not
really even willing to help but did say the pulleys they use are all 5"
I checked with several other sources all with the same result...
  So I am stumped on this one.......unless someone out there has BTDT
and lets the rest of us in on where to find these sheaves it looks like
they would have to be custom
made
Anyone else out there with suggestions ????     I know from receiving
off list inquiries for info that  there are more than a handfull of hams
who are in need of these
I tried
73
de JB     W2GB



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From dhearn@ix.netcom.com  Wed Jun 20 19:10:05 2001
From: dhearn@ix.netcom.com (dan hearn)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:10:05 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pulley wheel (Sheave)replacements
References: <3B30DD08.E1CF87EA@nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3B30E6FC.A52429EB@ix.netcom.com>

JB are the sheave bodies shot or just the bearings? I replaced the
bearings in my TX472 with minimal trouble. The local bearing suppliers
found the bearings used by UST are obsolete but had sealed bearings with
the right OD. ID was too large but they had some bronze sleeve bushings
which were right OD for bearing ID and right ID for thru bolts. I
pressed out the old bearings with my bench vise and using a socket of
the right OD to pass thru the sheave hole. Put new cables on the tower
and everything back operating. 73, Dan, N5AR

asfco wrote:
> 
> Here is what I found out regarding replacement sheaves for the EZ Way
> tower.
>      First off,  Jim at Applied Mechanical Devices  was of little help,
> He did fax me a sheet of their available sheaves but this was only a
> copy out of the Mcmaster-Carr Catalog.
>   Sava Industries of NJ who specialize in wire rope sheaves do not have
> anything close to the size needed....I discovered that the sheaves are
> all too thick for the application on an EZ Way Tower. US Tower was not
> really even willing to help but did say the pulleys they use are all 5"
> I checked with several other sources all with the same result...
>   So I am stumped on this one.......unless someone out there has BTDT
> and lets the rest of us in on where to find these sheaves it looks like
> they would have to be custom
> made
> Anyone else out there with suggestions ????     I know from receiving
> off list inquiries for info that  there are more than a handfull of hams
> who are in need of these
> I tried
> 73
> de JB     W2GB
> 
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> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Wed Jun 20 05:28:35 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:28:35 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] [Fwd: Various Rohn Questions]
Message-ID: <3B302672.BA7DCA09@easystreet.com>

Hello Towertalkians,

Here are the "answers" I got from Rohn:

> Stan,
> 1.  The EF2545 is only to be used for 25G and 45G tower sections.
> 2.  ROHN makes no specific recommendations on erection fixtures for other
> models.  Typically they are installed by professional crews who of course
> have their own equipment.
> 3.  I don't know the yield strength of this mast.  I'll look into it  and
> see if I can get you an answer.
> Thanks,

We didn't learn a lot from this, did we?  Well, maybe we will find out the
yield strength of the steel in the M200H since the jury is still out on that
one . . .

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com



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From eisinger@micron.net  Wed Jun 20 22:57:28 2001
From: eisinger@micron.net (Eisinger)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:57:28 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pulley wheel (Sheave)replacements
In-Reply-To: <3B30DD08.E1CF87EA@nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MABBKJKDOFDBOOINMCFKAEBFCBAA.eisinger@micron.net>

JB-

I didn't see the original thread so am not sure of the overall condition of
your tower pulleys. I recently went through the same exercise and, after not
being able to find suitable replacements, took my sheaves (from an old US
Tower TX-472) to a machine shop and they were able to replace the bearings
for me.  For some reason, finding bearings that will fit the sheave is
easier than finding an entire replacement unit. I had the same experience
with US Tower with them not being willing to provide much info or even sell
me replacements.  After replacing the bearings, my sheaves were as good as
new.


73's,
Bill, AA7X
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of asfco
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 11:28 AM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pulley wheel (Sheave)replacements


Here is what I found out regarding replacement sheaves for the EZ Way
tower.
     First off,  Jim at Applied Mechanical Devices  was of little help,
He did fax me a sheet of their available sheaves but this was only a
copy out of the Mcmaster-Carr Catalog.
  Sava Industries of NJ who specialize in wire rope sheaves do not have
anything close to the size needed....I discovered that the sheaves are
all too thick for the application on an EZ Way Tower. US Tower was not
really even willing to help but did say the pulleys they use are all 5"
I checked with several other sources all with the same result...
  So I am stumped on this one.......unless someone out there has BTDT
and lets the rest of us in on where to find these sheaves it looks like
they would have to be custom
made
Anyone else out there with suggestions ????     I know from receiving
off list inquiries for info that  there are more than a handfull of hams
who are in need of these
I tried
73
de JB     W2GB



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From kkanakas@cisco.com  Wed Jun 20 23:18:13 2001
From: kkanakas@cisco.com (krishna)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:18:13 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Homeowners assoc denied roof mount tower request
Message-ID: <3B312125.80B2CD8A@cisco.com>

Hi,
 This is the same issue that has happened over and over to a lot of
 folks.

 I live in Herndon, VA in a single family home.
 There is no clause that restricts any antennas in the homeowners
 assoc document.
 I requested permission to put up a 8ft roof mounted GM tower for
 the mosley tribander beam.

 The architectural control committee denied it.

 I justified the need for the tower because we have snow/ice in the
 area. I had presented photos of a Qth in california with the antenna on
a
mast but added that since the winters are harsh, we need the tower for
safety reasons.

 I have a TV antenna on the edge of the house along the eve and on top
of the
 TV mast is a 15ft telescopic aluminum golf ball retriever pole,
 that i use to hold my inv-V. This is just about 11 ft away from the
property line.
 They wanted me to put the tower at this location. What a joke.
 That is a direct violation of the building codes. The mosley will be
about 5/6 feet
 into the neighbours property.

 They do not want the tower to be visible.

 Now i have the ball in my court.
 I can appeal. I would like to hear on how to proceed with this issue.
 I am appealing the decision along with a request for a personal
 meeting with the board to explain( ???? height, wind, radiation, FCC
etc).

 On getting in touch with the town officials, i was told that getting a
building
 permit will not be a problem, since the town already permits amateur
antennas.
They took my application and i think it will not be an issue.


 After this, i feel like, i want to have 3 towers in my small city lot.
One in the front, and the rear yard and the 3rd one on the roof.

 I just want to be prepared for a legal solution in case things don't
work well.
 As far as the neighbours, they will not be a problem. I can get
no-objection letters
 from the ones around.

 So any suggestions on how to proceed will be appreciated. I am really
upset.

 I had taken a lot of pains to refurbish the antenna and tune it.
 My thanks are due to N1RJ Ron for his help. My thanks are due to this
forum,
 since it is a great source of knowledge.

Damn, i am not going to sleep without that antenna up in the air.


 thanks
 krish


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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Wed Jun 20 23:11:52 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:11:52 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
Message-ID: <1010520181152.SAA17299@gate.iterated.com>

On 6/17/01 7:06 AM, bill wall at billwall@bellsouth.net wrote:

>Many chemical cleaners are now bought with a license only. Benzol (Benzine),
>Creosote, Nitro Methane and many others.

No one likes MEK? Just keep it away from plastics. It's the only thing 
that will put a dent in certain epoxies....



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net  Wed Jun 20 23:27:17 2001
From: Kevin Hemsley" <kev@ida.net (Kevin Hemsley)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:27:17 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] EZNEC Question
Message-ID: <0b2201c0f9d8$29e96e30$d5cbe4cc@kevin>

I tried posting this to the antennaware list, but it didn't get 
published, or the list is down, so I am posting to TowerTalk.

I probably picked an odd antenna for my first shot at using EZNEC.  
I am trying to model the NVIS antenna found at:

http://www.n6mrx.com/Antenna/Near%20Vertical%20Incident%20Scattering%20Antenna.htm

(If the link above wraps, you may have to glue it back together)

Using the data listed below, the Far Field plots look reasonable, 
but the SWR plot is at infinity for all frequencies. I had a difficult time 
figuring out how to specify a source at the wire junction.   The only way 
I could specify a split source is to move wire 2's Z up a foot from 15 to 
16.  This seemed like a simple antenna to test EZNEC, but it has turned 
out to be a bit strange. Could any EZNEC users give me any pointers?  
Am I close, or did I approach it all wrong?

Thanks, Kevin

KB7TYA
kev@ida.net

=======================================================
Near Vertical Incident Skywave               6/19/2001     3:24:11 PM

--------------- ANTENNA DESCRIPTION ---------------

Frequency = 3.921 MHz
Wire Loss: Copper -- Resistivity = 1.74E-08 ohm-m, Rel. Perm. = 1

              --------------- WIRES ---------------

No.          End 1   Coord. (ft)              End 2   Coord. (ft)       Dia(in)  Segs
      Conn.      X       Y       Z     Conn.      X       Y       Z
1      W2E1        0,      0,     15                0,     25,      2 #18   5
2      W1E1        0,      0,     15                0,    -25,      2 #18   5
3      W4E1        0,      0,     16               38,      0,      2 #18   5
4      W3E1        0,      0,     16              -38,      0,      2 #18   5

Total Segments: 20

              -------------- SOURCES --------------

No.      Specified Pos.     Actual Pos.      Amplitude    Phase    Type
       Wire #  % From E1  % From E1  Seg       (V/A)     (deg.)
1       1         0.00      10.00    1        1           0         SI
2       3         0.00      10.00    1        1           0         SI

No loads specified

No transmission lines specified

Ground type is Real, MININEC-Type

              --------------- MEDIA ---------------

No.    Cond.    Diel. Const.  Height    R Coord.
       (S/m)                  (ft)      (ft)
1      0.0303    20           0         0


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From K7LXC@aol.com  Thu Jun 21 00:23:20 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 19:23:20 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pulley wheel (Sheave)replacements
Message-ID: <46.167bb58b.28628a68@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/20/01 10:27:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
asfco@nycap.rr.com writes:

>   Sava Industries of NJ who specialize in wire rope sheaves do not have
>  anything close to the size needed....I discovered that the sheaves are
>  all too thick for the application on an EZ Way Tower. US Tower was not
>  really even willing to help but did say the pulleys they use are all 5"
>  I checked with several other sources all with the same result...
>    So I am stumped on this one.......unless someone out there has BTDT
>  and lets the rest of us in on where to find these sheaves it looks like
>  they would have to be custom
>  made
>  Anyone else out there with suggestions ????     I know from receiving
>  off list inquiries for info that  there are more than a handfull of hams
>  who are in need of these

    I'm not sure what EZ Way used but I can comment on US Tower products. UST 
makes their own sheaves and presses off-the-shelf sealed bearings in their 
centers. Then they punch the mating surfaces to keep the bearings in the 
sheave. 

    If EZ Way did something like that, you're not going to be able to find 
what you need. 

    BTW the UST ones are fairly expensive but they're the ONLY ONES for the 
application. 

Cheers,   Steve   K7LXC
Tower Tech 
factory authorized US Tower installer

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From na4m@arrl.net  Thu Jun 21 00:47:06 2001
From: na4m@arrl.net (Phil Duff)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 23:47:06 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Homeowners assoc denied roof mount tower
 request
In-Reply-To: <3B312125.80B2CD8A@cisco.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010620234407.01ff0750@pop.cox-internet.com>

At 18:18 6/20/01 -0400, krishna wrote:

>  There is no clause that restricts any antennas in the homeowners
>  assoc document.
>  I requested permission to put up a 8ft roof mounted GM tower for
>  the mosley tribander beam.

I must have missed something.    If there's no clause against
towers why ask permission?   Put it up.

73 de Phil NA4M


-. .- ....- --   -. .- ....- --   -. .- ....- --   -. .- ....- --   -. .- 
....- --
Phil Duff NA4M     na4m@arrl.net   Georgetown, Texas  


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From kkanakas@cisco.com  Thu Jun 21 01:15:04 2001
From: kkanakas@cisco.com (krishna)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:15:04 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Homeowners assoc denied roof mount tower request
Message-ID: <3B313C88.89876CD7@cisco.com>

Well,
 As per the document, any changes done to the outside of the Qth will
need to
 go by the architectural committee.
 I got into it, just to avoid any questions that might arise after the
installation.

 thanks
krish
At 18:18 6/20/01 -0400, krishna wrote:

>  There is no clause that restricts any antennas in the homeowners
>  assoc document.
>  I requested permission to put up a 8ft roof mounted GM tower for
>  the mosley tribander beam.

I must have missed something.    If there's no clause against
towers why ask permission?   Put it up.

73 de Phil NA4M




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From Steve/n0tu" <n0tu@webaccess.net  Thu Jun 21 01:27:49 2001
From: Steve/n0tu" <n0tu@webaccess.net (Steve/n0tu)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:27:49 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn25 - different size bolt holes?
Message-ID: <008301c0f9e9$01703180$6a211d82@sg2939h.col.hp.com>

Curious why?

Just acquired 60' some vintage of Rohn 25 ...in good shape - no rust or
broken welds!  Why does it have different size bolt holes on the legs? That
is, where the legs nest together and have the 2-bolts per leg  one hole is
larger than the other. Is this a feature? Doesn't look like they've been
drilled out cuz the galvanizing is still in tack.  Should I use 2 different
size bolts to fit the holes.TIA Steve/n0tu


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From eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com  Thu Jun 21 01:28:41 2001
From: eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com (Eugene Jensen)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:28:41 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] TM370HD 70 foot motorized Sky Needle
Message-ID: <NDBBLGNBKLCJJFDFMEINGEIPCDAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>

I have no knowledge of this particular tower.  My question is to the group:
How long ago was the last production run of this type of tower?  How good a
tower was it?  And what would you think would be a fair price for one in
good condition used??  73's Gene  K2QWD


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From ser@tch.org  Thu Jun 21 01:24:37 2001
From: ser@tch.org (Steve Rubin)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:24:37 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Homeowners assoc denied roof mount tower request
In-Reply-To: <3B313C88.89876CD7@cisco.com>; from kkanakas@cisco.com on Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 08:15:04PM -0400
References: <3B313C88.89876CD7@cisco.com>
Message-ID: <20010620172437.B99088@tch.org>

On Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 08:15:04PM -0400, krishna wrote:
> Well,
>  As per the document, any changes done to the outside of the Qth will
> need to
>  go by the architectural committee.
>  I got into it, just to avoid any questions that might arise after the
> installation.
> 

Or you can do what I did...  I joined the board of the HOA (heh, I was
voted on!)... and now, no one bothers me about the antennas ;).  


-- 
Steve Rubin          / KG6DFV  /  Phone: (408)270-3258 Fax: (408)270-3273
Email: ser@tch.org  /  N57DL  /   http://www.tch.org/~ser/
RIP: Douglas Adams 1952-2001 - So Long, and Thanks for all the books!

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From wa2moe@doitnow.com  Thu Jun 21 01:33:06 2001
From: wa2moe@doitnow.com (Stu Greene)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:33:06 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Homeowners assoc denied roof mount tower
 request
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010620234407.01ff0750@pop.cox-internet.com>
References: <3B312125.80B2CD8A@cisco.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010620172357.00a9d100@127.0.0.1>

At 11:47 PM 6/20/01 +0000,Phil Duff <na4m@arrl.net>wrote:
>At 18:18 6/20/01 -0400, krishna wrote:
>
>>  There is no clause that restricts any antennas in the homeowners
>>  assoc document.
>>  I requested permission to put up a 8ft roof mounted GM tower for
>>  the mosley tribander beam.
>
>I must have missed something.    If there's no clause against
>towers why ask permission?   Put it up.

Well, he asked us in Towertalk, so he must be concerned about 
something.  If it were I, I'd post this on the Law Reflector and/or get counsel

Subscription to that reflector is an e mail to
  listserver@altlaw.com
with the word "subscribe" in the message


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From k7zo@home.com  Thu Jun 21 01:41:15 2001
From: k7zo@home.com (K7ZO (Scott Tuthill))
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:41:15 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cell Tower Proximity Issues
Message-ID: <006601c0f9ea$e12f2280$6501a8c0@bosie1.id.home.com>

Am looking at a potential QTH site - a 40 acre parcel. On one corner is an
existing cell phone tower. Anyone have any advice or experience with
constructing and operating a multi tower contesting station with a cell
tower that close?

Scott/K7ZO


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From DMartin560@aol.com  Thu Jun 21 02:41:19 2001
From: DMartin560@aol.com (DMartin560@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:41:19 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn25 - different size bolt holes?
Message-ID: <5b.17a69ea7.2862aabf@aol.com>

Yes Steve, they take 1/4" x 1-1/2"  and  5/16" x 1-1/2" bolts.

Dwayne  KG4ADM



<< Curious why?
 
 Just acquired 60' some vintage of Rohn 25 ...in good shape - no rust or
 broken welds!  Why does it have different size bolt holes on the legs? That
 is, where the legs nest together and have the 2-bolts per leg  one hole is
 larger than the other. Is this a feature? Doesn't look like they've been
 drilled out cuz the galvanizing is still in tack.  Should I use 2 different
 size bolts to fit the holes.TIA Steve/n0tu
  >>

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Thu Jun 21 02:44:55 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:44:55 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn25 - different size bolt holes?
Message-ID: <f2.bd18bfe.2862ab97@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/20/01 6:42:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
DMartin560@aol.com writes:

> Yes Steve, they take 1/4" x 1-1/2"  and  5/16" x 1-1/2" bolts.

    And for some reason they're fine-threaded as well as SAE Grade 5.

Cheers,   Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From w5kp@swbell.net  Thu Jun 21 04:08:50 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 22:08:50 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 7075-T6 Aluminum
Message-ID: <008501c0f9ff$7fb4b5a0$8220c1cf@jkdesktop>

A curiosity question: I recently bought a half dozen Black Diamond brand
carabiners for tower work at a local mountaineering shop. They are 26 kN
end-to-end pull strength, which if I understand the rough conversion
correctly (about 225 lb per kN) would give them roughly 6600 lb of breaking
strength. They are extremely light - no, make that incredibly light - for
their strength, and are made of 7075-T6 aluminum, a material I'm not
familiar with. What are examples of other things out there commonly made
from 7075-T6? Surely tubing must be available made from this stuff - is it
ridiculously expensive, a la titanium and such? The carabiners seem
relatively inexpensive at about $8 a pop, with those of lesser capacity
going for as little as $5 each. I'd think 20' of tubing made from this stuff
would be the all time killer mast, unless there are other hardness or
stiffness factors that would prohibit its use when compared to high strength
carbon or chromoly steel. Any experts out there?
73, Jerry W5KP



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From W8JI@contesting.com  Thu Jun 21 04:47:18 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 23:47:18 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping
In-Reply-To: <06a901c0f852$f9ee61d0$d5cbe4cc@kevin>
Message-ID: <200106210353.f5L3ruK26668@paris.akorn.net>

> TO BE FLEXED." part.  I had never considered braided ground straps to be
> inferior to solid copper wire for grounding.  I had also never considered
> that there might be a measurable impedance in braided ground strapping
> when compared to solid wire.  I am curious to hear what others thoughts
> are on the matter.  Does it really make a noticeable difference to use
> solid wire as opposed to braided strapping?

>From Electronic Designers Handbook page 8-25, in the section on 
transmission line..

" When the outer conductor is not solid but is braided to give 
greater flexability, the attenuation in decibels per unit length due to 
resistance of the outer conductor is multiplied by a factor of 
approximately 2.75."

That is for a dense, clean, braided conductor that is compacted by 
the jacket. I have other textbooks that quote even larger resistance 
changes.

If you loosen the braid, so the conductors do not lay in pressure 
contact, the resistance skyrockets. My own measurements of 
braid from RG-8 cable, when removed from the cable, show clean 
fresh braid from RG-8 heats and discolors with only 8 amperes of 
30 MHz RF. The temperature rise is about the same as a #16 solid 
wire!

I visited an amplifier manufacturer and saw a prototype with RG-58 
braid from the ten meter tap of the tank to the switch. I made an off-
hand comment to the effect "that outta get hot fast". The engineer 
snickered, fired it up, and then had his smile fade as the braid 
actually smoked and melted. He stuck in some #10 solid wire, and 
it ran cool as can be.

The tarnished braid of coax that has been wet inside is by far the 
primary loss mechanism in a failed cable. 

Knowing what a few amperes of RF can do to braiding that is not 
clean...and with pressure between the contact points on weaves....I 
sure would hate to depend on it for lightning or RF grounds.

NASA and others prohibit the use of braiding in lightning grounds, 
and you'll never see it in BC stations where the ground is involved 
in lightning or RF applications unless it is way overkill size and very 
short.

One thing that doesn't hurt the system quite as much are parallel 
lays of wire that are not woven. In that case you loose only a little 
bit of effective surface area for RF, because of the stand-to-strand 
air gap at the surface. The current pushes to the outside edge of 
the individual conductors, so each individual tiny conductor has 
only a fraction of its cross section carrying current...and only the 
conductors on the outside carry any current. 

That's the reason Litz wire starts to fall apart at 100KHz, and by 1 
MHz or so is ineffective.  

People forget the current migrates to the outside edges of 
conductors, away from the wire core. Keep that in mind, and you 
can picture the problems when the conductor weaves in and out or 
when you rough up the surface by stranding or weaving the small 
wires to make a large conductor.

Smooth and wide is best by far for RF, unless you have no other 
choice. That's while the foil is UNDER the braid of low loss coax, 
and why hardline has solid center conductors and shields.




> 
> Also, does anyone have any thoughts on using a flat copper common buss, as
> opposed to copper tubing?
> 
> ----------------------------------
> Kevin Hemsley
> kev@ida.net
> KB7TYA
> 
> 
> 
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> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com"> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
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> 


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From gclute@home.com  Thu Jun 21 06:01:21 2001
From: gclute@home.com (George L. Clute)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 22:01:21 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pulley wheel (Sheave)replacements
In-Reply-To: <3B30DD08.E1CF87EA@nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBKEMAGLKGCAKIAHLCOELNCHAA.gclute@home.com>

Have you tried the boat hardware folks, especially those that have sail boat
hardware.  Many of their pulley's have brass inserts which is what I ended
up putting on my Tri-Ex MW65 crank up....before that I had the #13A pulley
and Fafner bearings.

I just erected the repaired tower so I can't tell how well the brass is
going to hold up.  I have a wench on this tower, but I don't believe these
older crank ups were meant to be taken up and down frequently. I


73,

George - W7LFD

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of asfco
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 10:28 AM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pulley wheel (Sheave)replacements

Here is what I found out regarding replacement sheaves for the EZ Way
tower.
     First off,  Jim at Applied Mechanical Devices  was of little help,
He did fax me a sheet of their available sheaves but this was only a
copy out of the Mcmaster-Carr Catalog.
  Sava Industries of NJ who specialize in wire rope sheaves do not have
anything close to the size needed....I discovered that the sheaves are
all too thick for the application on an EZ Way Tower. US Tower was not
really even willing to help but did say the pulleys they use are all 5"
I checked with several other sources all with the same result...
  So I am stumped on this one.......unless someone out there has BTDT
and lets the rest of us in on where to find these sheaves it looks like
they would have to be custom
made
Anyone else out there with suggestions ????     I know from receiving
off list inquiries for info that  there are more than a handfull of hams
who are in need of these
I tried
73
de JB     W2GB



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From eric@k3na.org  Thu Jun 21 09:14:55 2001
From: eric@k3na.org (Eric Scace)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:14:55 +0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Homeowners assoc denied roof mount tower request
In-Reply-To: <3B313C88.89876CD7@cisco.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJKPCLKFDODKNIPHKCEBKEKAA.eric@k3na.org>

Buy the book "Antenna Zoning" from ARRL, just published in the last few months.  It is written by K1VR, an expert in this field.  It
will cover ALL of your questions, plus many others that you have not yet thought about.

-- Eric K3NA


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From k9zm@frontiernet.net  Thu Jun 21 11:57:39 2001
From: k9zm@frontiernet.net (Greg Gobleman)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 05:57:39 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 7075-T6 Aluminum
References: <008501c0f9ff$7fb4b5a0$8220c1cf@jkdesktop>
Message-ID: <002901c0fa41$d3837580$3cab82d1@k9zm>

I don't know about using 7075-T6 as a mast but you did ask about
other uses.  Something very similar, 7075-T9 is used as a popular
and tough arrow shaft.  What I don't know is, what the T6 or T9
designation means.  In manufacturing arrows they start with a
larger size tube and draw it down over many steps.

73
Greg K9ZM


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From k1ttt@berkshire.net  Thu Jun 21 11:19:03 2001
From: k1ttt@berkshire.net (David Robbins)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:19:03 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] 7075-T6 Aluminum
References: <008501c0f9ff$7fb4b5a0$8220c1cf@jkdesktop> <002901c0fa41$d3837580$3cab82d1@k9zm>
Message-ID: <3B31CA17.ABDA883@berkshire.net>

in aluminum alloy designations the first number is the alloy composition number
which can be looked up in a table to get the various percentages of elements in
the alloy.  the 'T' number is the heat treatment designation.  that can be
looked up to tell you what type of heat treatment the material has had.  the
heat treatment affects how the grains in the material are arranged, this can
affect strength and hardness of the final material.  working after heat
treatment as in drawing tubing or bending carribeaners or machining can further
affect the characteristics of the final product.

Greg Gobleman wrote:
> 
> I don't know about using 7075-T6 as a mast but you did ask about
> other uses.  Something very similar, 7075-T9 is used as a popular
> and tough arrow shaft.  What I don't know is, what the T6 or T9
> designation means.  In manufacturing arrows they start with a
> larger size tube and draw it down over many steps.
> 

-- 
David Robbins K1TTT
e-mail: mailto://k1ttt@berkshire.net
web: http://www.k1ttt.net
AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://k1ttt.net

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From n4zr@contesting.com  Thu Jun 21 13:06:44 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:06:44 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 7075-T6 Aluminum
In-Reply-To: <3B31CA17.ABDA883@berkshire.net>
References: <008501c0f9ff$7fb4b5a0$8220c1cf@jkdesktop>
 <002901c0fa41$d3837580$3cab82d1@k9zm>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010621080644.00ac5100@mail.abs.adelphia.net>

At 11:19 AM 6/21/01 +0100, David Robbins wrote:
>in aluminum alloy designations the first number is the alloy composition
number
>which can be looked up in a table to get the various percentages of
elements in
>the alloy.  the 'T' number is the heat treatment designation.  that can be
>looked up to tell you what type of heat treatment the material has had.  the
>heat treatment affects how the grains in the material are arranged, this can
>affect strength and hardness of the final material.  working after heat
>treatment as in drawing tubing or bending carribeaners or machining can
further
>affect the characteristics of the final product.
>
>Greg Gobleman wrote:
>> 
>> I don't know about using 7075-T6 as a mast but you did ask about
>> other uses.  Something very similar, 7075-T9 is used as a popular
>> and tough arrow shaft.  What I don't know is, what the T6 or T9
>> designation means.  In manufacturing arrows they start with a
>> larger size tube and draw it down over many steps.
>> 
But aren't all aluminum alloys significantly less stiff than steel?  I
thought this and cost, more than ultimate yield strength, were what tended
to limit the usefulness of long aluminum masts.  Maybe this will smoke one
of the experts out of the undergrowth...

73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From WW4T@aol.com  Thu Jun 21 14:12:27 2001
From: WW4T@aol.com (WW4T@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:12:27 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pulley wheel (Sheave)replacements
Message-ID: <e.e84d821.28634cbb@aol.com>

    Have you tried "Grainger"  Industrial Supply?   http//www.grainger.com
This company is phenomenal with what they have in catalog and in stock.   You 
have to have a "membership".....its free I think....I just made up a name, 
and use the same one over and over when I go in. (like "Blank and Blank 
Farms"....or "Such and So Enterprises").........you get a free catalog (about 
5-6 inches thick) and its full of industrial rated tools, supplies, gear 
boxes, electric moters, and all kinds of neat things Hams can make use of.

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From mfarrer@tality.com  Thu Jun 21 14:18:13 2001
From: mfarrer@tality.com (Mel Farrer)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 06:18:13 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Pulley wheel (Sheave)replacements
Message-ID: <97A30A2BBA23D411842900D0B726125D6164A6@srvex03-sanjose.Cadence.COM>

On the Grainger issue, their website has an online catalog.
www.grainger.com

-----Original Message-----
From: WW4T@aol.com [mailto:WW4T@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 6:12 AM
To: asfco@nycap.rr.com; towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Pulley wheel (Sheave)replacements


    Have you tried "Grainger"  Industrial Supply?   http//www.grainger.com
This company is phenomenal with what they have in catalog and in stock.
You 
have to have a "membership".....its free I think....I just made up a name, 
and use the same one over and over when I go in. (like "Blank and Blank 
Farms"....or "Such and So Enterprises").........you get a free catalog
(about 
5-6 inches thick) and its full of industrial rated tools, supplies, gear 
boxes, electric moters, and all kinds of neat things Hams can make use of.

List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
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HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
www.ChampionRadio.com</A>

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From kr7x@gte.net  Thu Jun 21 15:52:23 2001
From: kr7x@gte.net (Hank Lonberg)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 07:52:23 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] 7075-T6 Aluminum
References: <008501c0f9ff$7fb4b5a0$8220c1cf@jkdesktop>
 <002901c0fa41$d3837580$3cab82d1@k9zm> <3.0.6.32.20010621080644.00ac5100@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <3B320A27.1EC5BF52@gte.net>

Okie Doke Pete:

Lets get to know the alloys and treatment.

6000: (6061)

A silicon and mangnesium alloy of aluminum. Heat treatable very
versatile with good formabliliy and corrosion resistance, medium
strength. Very common alloy. Tensile yield strength 6061-T6: 40,000 psi.
E=10,000,000 psi.

7000:  (7075)

A zinc alloy of aluminum. Heat treatable, high strength. Used in
air-frame structures and highly stressed parts. Tensile yield strength
7075-T6: 67,000 psi. E=10,000,000 psi.

Temper T6:

Solution heat treated and artifically aged. Not cold worked after
solution heat treatment to improve strength.

Now wasn't that informative.

7075 is not normally stocked and is typically a special order item. 6061
is very common in multitude of shapes and sections.

Aluminum's modulus of elasticty, E , is 10,000,000 psi. A36 mild steel's
, and other steels for that matter, modulus of elasticity, E, is
29,000,000 psi.

The deflection of a mast due to the antenna loading is a function of
the  antenna load times the distance from the support divided by the
moment of inertia,I , divided by the modulus of elasticity, E. As all
can see that since steel's E is 3X that of aluminum it will defect 1/3
as much for an equal load and section I. There ya go....

If you are concerned about your mast and mast strength use a steel alloy
mast. If you want to use aluminum go ahead, but know that it will
deflect more than a steel mast of the same size for the same load...

Ciao and 73

Hank Lonberg P.E. / KR7X




Pete Smith wrote:
> 
> At 11:19 AM 6/21/01 +0100, David Robbins wrote:
> >in aluminum alloy designations the first number is the alloy composition
> number
> >which can be looked up in a table to get the various percentages of
> elements in
> >the alloy.  the 'T' number is the heat treatment designation.  that can be
> >looked up to tell you what type of heat treatment the material has had.  the
> >heat treatment affects how the grains in the material are arranged, this can
> >affect strength and hardness of the final material.  working after heat
> >treatment as in drawing tubing or bending carribeaners or machining can
> further
> >affect the characteristics of the final product.
> >
> >Greg Gobleman wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't know about using 7075-T6 as a mast but you did ask about
> >> other uses.  Something very similar, 7075-T9 is used as a popular
> >> and tough arrow shaft.  What I don't know is, what the T6 or T9
> >> designation means.  In manufacturing arrows they start with a
> >> larger size tube and draw it down over many steps.
> >>
> But aren't all aluminum alloys significantly less stiff than steel?  I
> thought this and cost, more than ultimate yield strength, were what tended
> to limit the usefulness of long aluminum masts.  Maybe this will smoke one
> of the experts out of the undergrowth...
> 
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> No, no ... that's WEST Virginia
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
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From b_bradfield@yahoo.com  Thu Jun 21 16:30:57 2001
From: b_bradfield@yahoo.com (Brad Bradfield)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:30:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] 7075-T6 Aluminum
In-Reply-To: <3B320A27.1EC5BF52@gte.net>
Message-ID: <20010621153057.20513.qmail@web10003.mail.yahoo.com>


Also, one of these alloys can be welded and the other can't, I believe.
 Is it the 6000 series that can be welded?

73,

Brad, W5CGH

===========

--- Hank Lonberg <kr7x@gte.net> wrote:
> Okie Doke Pete:
> 
> Lets get to know the alloys and treatment.
> 
> 6000: (6061)
> 
> A silicon and mangnesium alloy of aluminum. Heat treatable very
> versatile with good formabliliy and corrosion resistance, medium
> strength. Very common alloy. Tensile yield strength 6061-T6: 40,000
> psi.
> E=10,000,000 psi.
> 
> 7000:  (7075)
> 
> A zinc alloy of aluminum. Heat treatable, high strength. Used in
> air-frame structures and highly stressed parts. Tensile yield
> strength
> 7075-T6: 67,000 psi. E=10,000,000 psi.
> 


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From kr7x@gte.net  Thu Jun 21 16:39:03 2001
From: kr7x@gte.net (Hank Lonberg)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:39:03 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] 7075-T6 Aluminum
References: <20010621153057.20513.qmail@web10003.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3B321517.B18D149F@gte.net>

OOPS is my face red.


7075 alloy  is not recommended for welding by fusion methods. Resistance
welding spot and seam of may be readily accomplished with clad material
in T6 condition. Resistance welding of the bare material is not
recommended due to the severe loss in corrosion resistance. Brazing and
soldering are not recommended.

6061 alloy is weldable by any process normally used to weld aluminum
alloys. Brazing and soldiering are feasible but trial runs are
recommended. No loss of corrosion resistance due to welding process.

Hank / KR7X


Brad Bradfield wrote:
> 
> Also, one of these alloys can be welded and the other can't, I believe.
>  Is it the 6000 series that can be welded?
> 
> 73,
> 
> Brad, W5CGH
> 
> ===========
> 
> --- Hank Lonberg <kr7x@gte.net> wrote:
> > Okie Doke Pete:
> >
> > Lets get to know the alloys and treatment.
> >
> > 6000: (6061)
> >
> > A silicon and mangnesium alloy of aluminum. Heat treatable very
> > versatile with good formabliliy and corrosion resistance, medium
> > strength. Very common alloy. Tensile yield strength 6061-T6: 40,000
> > psi.
> > E=10,000,000 psi.
> >
> > 7000:  (7075)
> >
> > A zinc alloy of aluminum. Heat treatable, high strength. Used in
> > air-frame structures and highly stressed parts. Tensile yield
> > strength
> > 7075-T6: 67,000 psi. E=10,000,000 psi.
> >
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
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> 
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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From nielsen@oz.net  Thu Jun 21 16:41:24 2001
From: nielsen@oz.net (Bob Nielsen)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:41:24 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
In-Reply-To: <1010520181152.SAA17299@gate.iterated.com>
Message-ID: <20010621084124.A16166@oz.net>

On Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 06:11:52PM -0400, Bill Coleman wrote:
> On 6/17/01 7:06 AM, bill wall at billwall@bellsouth.net wrote:
> 
> >Many chemical cleaners are now bought with a license only. Benzol (Benzine),
> >Creosote, Nitro Methane and many others.
> 
> No one likes MEK? Just keep it away from plastics. It's the only thing 
> that will put a dent in certain epoxies....

Back in the 1960's a co-worker tried using MEK to clean a grease spot
off his tie.  The spot came off fine, but then the MEK started to
wick its way up the tie, disolving everything in its path....

Bob, N7XY


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From MWapner@Vetronix.com  Thu Jun 21 16:46:25 2001
From: MWapner@Vetronix.com (Mike Wapner)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:46:25 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] 7075-T6 Aluminum
Message-ID: <11CA8AEBA4D7D0119FFF00805F29965D02079869@EXCHANGE_NT1>

For all practical purposes 7075 is NOT weldable and essentially all grades
of 6000 series IS weldable (there is one 6000 alloy that isn't weldable but
it is very uncommon).

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Brad Bradfield [SMTP:b_bradfield@yahoo.com]
> Sent:	Thursday, June 21, 2001 8:31 AM
> To:	Hank Lonberg; towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject:	Re: [TowerTalk] 7075-T6 Aluminum
> 
> 
> Also, one of these alloys can be welded and the other can't, I believe.
>  Is it the 6000 series that can be welded?
> 
> 73,
> 
> Brad, W5CGH
> 
> ===========
> 
> --- Hank Lonberg <kr7x@gte.net> wrote:
> > Okie Doke Pete:
> > 
> > Lets get to know the alloys and treatment.
> > 
> > 6000: (6061)
> > 
> > A silicon and mangnesium alloy of aluminum. Heat treatable very
> > versatile with good formabliliy and corrosion resistance, medium
> > strength. Very common alloy. Tensile yield strength 6061-T6: 40,000
> > psi.
> > E=10,000,000 psi.
> > 
> > 7000:  (7075)
> > 
> > A zinc alloy of aluminum. Heat treatable, high strength. Used in
> > air-frame structures and highly stressed parts. Tensile yield
> > strength
> > 7075-T6: 67,000 psi. E=10,000,000 psi.
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
> us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
> to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
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From lloyd@ussc.com  Thu Jun 21 17:24:04 2001
From: lloyd@ussc.com (John Lloyd)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:24:04 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn TA55 Torque Are Bracket available
Message-ID: <3B321FA4.46445BC@ussc.com>

I have a New Rohn TA55 Torque Arm Bracket available. I will not be
needing it. Please reply direct to me at lloyd@ussc.com

ThankYou,

John Lloyd, K7JL
Sandy, Utah

801-268-5819 days
801-943-8830 eve
lloyd@ussc.com



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From ka4inm@qsl.net  Thu Jun 21 19:27:12 2001
From: ka4inm@qsl.net (Ron KA4INM Youvan)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:27:12 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
References: <20010621084124.A16166@oz.net>
Message-ID: <00d601c0fa7f$cb967640$d52e2526@wtog105>

Hi all:
  I use to get buy `auto break and electric motor cleaner'
at the auto parts store.  I don't know if they still make
that product or not.  A gud place to start.

         73 (= Best Regards) de: (= this is) Ron ka4inm@qsl.net
       Please visit my HAM web site at: http://www.qsl.net/ka4inm



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From nielsen@oz.net  Thu Jun 21 19:28:31 2001
From: nielsen@oz.net (Bob Nielsen)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:28:31 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
In-Reply-To: <01C0FA32.2D73B380.kbottles@rafn.com>
Message-ID: <20010621112831.A1756@oz.net>

As I recall, he did start to panic a bit before somebody grabbed a pair
of scissors.  Too bad it was in the days before video cameras.

(in case anyone thinks this is off-topic, although he wasn't a ham, he
was an antenna engineer at Hughes Aircraft in Culver City, CA).

On Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 09:11:36AM -0700, Kim Bottles wrote:
> Did he take the tie off before it reached his neck?
> Or did he do an Ann Bolyn imitation?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Bob Nielsen [SMTP:nielsen@oz.net]
> Sent:	Thursday, June 21, 2001 8:41 AM
> To:	towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject:	Re: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
> 
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 06:11:52PM -0400, Bill Coleman wrote:
> > On 6/17/01 7:06 AM, bill wall at billwall@bellsouth.net wrote:
> > 
> > >Many chemical cleaners are now bought with a license only. Benzol (Benzine),
> > >Creosote, Nitro Methane and many others.
> > 
> > No one likes MEK? Just keep it away from plastics. It's the only thing 
> > that will put a dent in certain epoxies....
> 
> Back in the 1960's a co-worker tried using MEK to clean a grease spot
> off his tie.  The spot came off fine, but then the MEK started to
> wick its way up the tie, disolving everything in its path....
> 
> Bob, N7XY
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com

-- 
Bob Nielsen, N7XY                          nielsen@oz.net
Bainbridge Island, WA                      http://www.oz.net/~nielsen
IOTA NA-065, USI WA-028S 

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From b_bradfield@yahoo.com  Thu Jun 21 19:51:53 2001
From: b_bradfield@yahoo.com (Brad Bradfield)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:51:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] Removing Oil from a Motor
In-Reply-To: <00d601c0fa7f$cb967640$d52e2526@wtog105>
Message-ID: <20010621185153.69713.qmail@web10004.mail.yahoo.com>


Carburator cleaner is about the best solvent I've ever used.

73,

Brad, W5CGH

============

--- Ron KA4INM Youvan <ka4inm@qsl.net> wrote:
> Hi all:
>   I use to get buy `auto break and electric motor cleaner'
> at the auto parts store.  I don't know if they still make
> that product or not.  A gud place to start.
> 
>          73 (= Best Regards) de: (= this is) Ron ka4inm@qsl.net
>        Please visit my HAM web site at: http://www.qsl.net/ka4inm


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From rundall@address.com  Thu Jun 21 18:56:18 2001
From: rundall@address.com (Pat Rundall)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:56:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided cable applications (car stereo cable)
Message-ID: <993146178.3b323542de412@newmail.address.com>

I've been wondering whether (taking the cost out of 
the equation for a moment), the very large, flexible, 
braided cable that is being used in car stereo power 
applications (usually by teenagers with more money than 
brains) would make a good gamma match to shunt feed a 
crankup tower on 80m or 160m.

Check out: 
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Product_ID=14811&CATID=56

// hype inserted
  1/0 Gauge power cable:
  EFX power cables are the optimum choice for your amplifier 
  or accessory. Constructed of 99.95% pure Oxygen Free High 
  Conductivity (OFHC) copper, this ultra-flexible power cable 
  features a chemically resistant, non-gripping jacket, 
  available in red for power and black for ground, and offers 
  a high strand count for optimum current flow and lower 
  resistance over long wire runs. EFX power cable has a high 
  temperature rating of 257degrees F (125degrees C) and a UL 
  temperature rating of 221degrees F (105degrees C) to 
  -22 degrees F (-30degrees C). 16mm OD. Made in the U.S.A. 
  Please order a minimum of 5 feet.
// end, hype

Recently, I stumbled into a car stereo installation shop
and had some time to kill. I took at look at something similar
to this stuff while waiting. No doubt, it's very flexible 
for cable that heavy. Man, is it expensive though! As I 
sat and watched teenagers & college students come into 
this place and put this stuff on credit, I started 
thinking... hmmm, I wonder if a kid wrecks his car, or 
it gets reposessed or... I'd bet there might be a cheap 
source of this stuff if I could get friendly with the guy 
running the place. My question is... any idea how well it 
might work for RF applications? At $6.95/ft, I don't think 
I'll be buying any off-the-shelf by the roll (at least not 
for radials :) ). 

Of course, I don't plan on buying any 2.0 Farad "stiffening
capacitors" (20 V with LED displays) @ $174.90 either:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Product_ID=7134&CATID=41
However, if I came across one that was ~free, I wouldn't
turn it down. It would just sit in my pile until I thought
of some way to make good use of it (suggestions?).

Nor will I be using the gold plated battery terminals
on my mobile station (although, I'm sure would probably
bring the elusive DX):  :)
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Product_ID=6289&CATID=35

Anyway, keep a lookout for a kid with a >140dB sound 
system in his car that he can no longer afford. You might
find a bargain (I'm hoping to).

Pat, NØHR 

---------------------------------------------------------------
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From molenda@buffnet.net  Fri Jun 22 00:57:08 2001
From: molenda@buffnet.net (molenda)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:57:08 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] rotors
Message-ID: <200106212359.TAA65990@buffnet4.buffnet.net>

Hello everyone !  I am looking at rotors , who makes a better more reliable
one Yeasu or cushcraft these are the two most common ones around here.
thanks   John    KB2HUK

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From molenda@buffnet.net  Fri Jun 22 00:59:30 2001
From: molenda@buffnet.net (molenda)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:59:30 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] log periodic antennas
Message-ID: <200106220001.UAA66108@buffnet4.buffnet.net>

I am thinking I will go with a Tennadyne log periodic antenna .  does anyone
have any experience with these?  John  KB2HUK

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From w7ti@jps.net  Fri Jun 22 01:40:46 2001
From: w7ti@jps.net (Bill Turner W7TI)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:40:46 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] rotors
In-Reply-To: <200106212359.TAA65990@buffnet4.buffnet.net>
References: <200106212359.TAA65990@buffnet4.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <dt45jto5k11sktvk35nk6d13bmt5vqcieo@4ax.com>

On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:57:08 -0400, molenda wrote:

>Hello everyone !  I am looking at rotors , who makes a better more reliable
>one Yeasu or cushcraft these are the two most common ones around here.
>thanks   John    KB2HUK

_________________________________________________________

I've had a Hy-Gain TailTwister and a Yaesu G-1000DXA.

Go for the Yaesu.  Cheaper and better.

73, Bill W7TI

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From alwilliams@olywa.net  Fri Jun 22 03:26:59 2001
From: alwilliams@olywa.net (Al Williams)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:26:59 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] problem: TIC Ring Rotator wont mount on Triex LM470e tower
Message-ID: <005801c0fac2$d0f6ab80$28daadd8@olywa>

I sure will appreciate TowerTalkians'  experience and advice on subject
problem!

My plan was to mount a beam at the top of the second section of my new Triex
LM470e (i.e. about 35')
using a TIC Ring Rotator.  However the off-the-shelf TIC adapter to crankup
towers does not fit
this tower.  This is because the adapter is designed to fit into the top of
the three open tubes of the
section.  However, the Triex LM470e (actually the Paragon SKY470) compresses
and bends the tops of these tubes to use as guides for the next inside
section (and also as mechanical stops).  The third
section (~51 feet) is also bent.

I will appreciate information from anyone who may have solved this problem
and also anyone
who has mounted a sidemount rotator to the top of the second or third
LM470e/SKY470 section.

I have communicated this problem to TIC and to FirstCall but there doesn't
seem to a fix planned.

thanks
al k7puc




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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Fri Jun 22 03:48:44 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:48:44 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Trylon Update 2.5
Message-ID: <003c01c0fac6$e9b9a420$a7b6ffd1@spelunk.sueno>

TT:

     Not much accomplished since the last update except I framed out the cap
(above-ground piece of the foundation) and set the rebar cage.  I
temporarily left the top two pieces of horizontal rebar and the center
vertical one out of one side of the cage.  This space will come in handy
when I set the base section (and those long stubs) into the hole on Sunday.
N8WRL and K9PH probably already know why.

    Next couple of days I get to play with the grown-up erector set and
start building the bottom section of the tower.  I'll set it on Sunday and
call for an inspection for Monday.  Keeping my fingers crossed.

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
P.S.  The bottom of the hole is level to within one inch across the surface
(after I pounded it for fifteen minutes with a 10X10 tamper plate.)


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From K2we@aol.com  Fri Jun 22 04:18:05 2001
From: K2we@aol.com (K2we@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:18:05 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] problem: TIC Ring Rotator wont mount on Triex LM470e tower
Message-ID: <45.815eacb.286412ed@aol.com>

Hi Al,
    I went thru the exact same thing you mentioned. I have an LM-470D and 
wanted to mount a ring rotor on the top of the 3rd section. Tic ring sold me 
the 3 adapters. I lowered the tower and using a sawzall, removed about 2" of 
the guide at the top of the 3rd section. This was enough to slip the 3 
adapters in place and install the ring rotor. I had it up for 4 years turning 
a Force 12 4BA. There is another problem you must overcome. You must run the 
coax down the tower thru the ring rotor or else the antenna on the ring rotor 
will snag the coax. I had a problem with the coax on the 4BA getting caught 
in the teeth of the ring rotor and being torn. It happened 6 times and I 
couldn't understand why. I finally installed a CCTV camera looking at the 
ring rotor and saw the problem. I could never get the ring rotor to work the 
way it should and took it down. I sold it locally.

Good Luck with your installation..

73  Steve/K2WE

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From N0OEL@aol.com  Fri Jun 22 06:04:36 2001
From: N0OEL@aol.com (N0OEL@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 01:04:36 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] rotors
Message-ID: <17.178084b2.28642be4@aol.com>

Hi John.    First Cushcraft doesnt make rotors.    

I think you are trying to compare Hygain and Yaesu.    I have used Hygain for 
years
and can tell you that they are built like a rock.    Work great.    I also 
have a Create and like that a lot too.   I dont think you will go wrong 
either way but if you go for the 
Yaesu I understand you dont want anything less than the 800 and the 1000 
might be the best built from that company.    Ham IV from Hygain is solid.   
And MFJ
(whom purchased the line two years ago) has not changed the line and kept it 
a 
quality rotor.   

Good luck.   

73
Mike
K0BUD

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From kb9mci@qsl.net  Fri Jun 22 06:10:19 2001
From: kb9mci@qsl.net (Bryan Fields)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:10:19 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Great service from Harbach
Message-ID: <01062200101902.07888@kb9mci.sytes.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi, 

I took down my 430 beam some time ago, and got it together tuesday, in 
preperation for Field Day, and relized that I misplaced the hardware for it.

I called Harbach in the morning tuesday, and recived what I needed Thursday 
after noon!

Great service once again!

73's
- -- 
Bryan Fields, KB9MCI
____________________
insecurity, n.:
	Finding out that you've mispronounced for years one of your
	favorite words.

	Realizing halfway through a joke that you're telling it to
	the person who told it to you.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE7MtM81n1EIlKF06ARAnNQAKC+Z87SZWZc3Efi9CeoyAdobkkeQQCgu71l
Et4KxrquLEhFqY/5gJmDRRE=
=CuhB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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From thorh@worldnet.att.net  Fri Jun 22 14:56:16 2001
From: thorh@worldnet.att.net (Thor Hallen)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 06:56:16 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] log periodic antennas
In-Reply-To: <200106220001.UAA66108@buffnet4.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <LNBBILANEJPNFNGIELAIIEOPCHAA.thorh@worldnet.att.net>

I recently replaced a Force 12 C3SS with a Tennadyne T6 log periodic to be
able to work 17 meters. The T6 has consistent good performance from 14 to 30
MHz with VSWR of 2:1 or less. The tradeoff with a log periodic versus a yagi
with comparible boom lengths is slightly lower directivity. There is a good
article in the ARRL Antenna Compendium Volume 6 by K9LA that contains
measured data and an EZNEC model. All materials are high quality and
assembly is straight forward. Chuck at Tennadyne is very helpful if you have
questions.

Thor Hallen K5AGE

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of molenda
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 5:00 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] log periodic antennas


I am thinking I will go with a Tennadyne log periodic antenna .  does anyone
have any experience with these?  John  KB2HUK

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From thompson@mindspring.com  Fri Jun 22 15:53:00 2001
From: thompson@mindspring.com (David L. Thompson)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:53:00 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] log periodic antennas
References: <LNBBILANEJPNFNGIELAIIEOPCHAA.thorh@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <006401c0fb2b$08c88b60$7d5a56d1@default>

A local uses the T10 and says it plays as well as his big Telrex tri-bander
that he had before.  The pattern is broader but you get low SWR and the
ability to QSY quickly.  In contesting (S02R!) or Dxing  you follow the old
Nathan Bedford Forrest axiom "The winner gets there the fastest with the
most"

73 Dave K4JRB



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From wa9pam@arrl.net  Fri Jun 22 18:08:17 2001
From: wa9pam@arrl.net (Ronald Anderson)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:08:17 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] 17 meters
Message-ID: <NFBBKNCBKLPFKNLGHFKOCEALCFAA.wa9pam@arrl.net>

Anyone wanting to work 20,17,15,12,10 and still have a good signal and
directivity take a look at the Force12 - 5BA.  SWR is as advertised, just
went through 70+ mph and is till working just fine.  Best antenna I have
ever had.

Ron Anderson - WA9PAM
http://webpages.charter.net/ronald


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From Steve/n0tu" <n0tu@webaccess.net  Fri Jun 22 20:22:52 2001
From: Steve/n0tu" <n0tu@webaccess.net (Steve/n0tu)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:22:52 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Roihn Guy Bracket GA25GD?
Message-ID: <000901c0fb51$0169af40$b0561d82@sg2939h>

I see Rohn recommends their guy assembly (GA25GD) accessory for attaching
guys to the tower. How many folks are actually using these verses attaching
to a single leg?  Are these brackets the preferred approach amoungst TTers?
Since it meets the MFGers specs my guess is this is the way to go? Right?
Comments?

Any chance someone have some they're not using? Please advise.

FYI, my installation will be 40' (later may go to 60' max) of Rohn 25 w/7sq'
of antenna 2' above thurst bearing. 3-guy (4A) burried concrete anchors on
50ft radius using 3/16" EHS. County wind rating is 85MPH (but I 've seen
100MPH plus winds at my QTH!)

Steve/n0tu


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From rthorne@tcac.net  Fri Jun 22 20:31:39 2001
From: rthorne@tcac.net (Richard Thorne)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:31:39 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Roihn Guy Bracket GA25GD?
References: <000901c0fb51$0169af40$b0561d82@sg2939h>
Message-ID: <3B339D1A.5E413281@tcac.net>

Steve:

Either will work, I've done it both ways.  I like the GA25GD attach method though.  Much
easier to attach the guys', and would be easier to remove if  the guy locations on the
tower needed to be changed. Not sure if it helps tower torqueing (rotation).

If you can afford them, I'd get them.

Steve/n0tu wrote:

> I see Rohn recommends their guy assembly (GA25GD) accessory for attaching
> guys to the tower. How many folks are actually using these verses attaching
> to a single leg?  Are these brackets the preferred approach amoungst TTers?
> Since it meets the MFGers specs my guess is this is the way to go? Right?
> Comments?
>
> Any chance someone have some they're not using? Please advise.
>
> FYI, my installation will be 40' (later may go to 60' max) of Rohn 25 w/7sq'
> of antenna 2' above thurst bearing. 3-guy (4A) burried concrete anchors on
> 50ft radius using 3/16" EHS. County wind rating is 85MPH (but I 've seen
> 100MPH plus winds at my QTH!)
>
> Steve/n0tu
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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--
Richard Thorne
Advo Companies, Inc.
806-342-0600



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From dxdog@rcn.com  Fri Jun 22 21:17:36 2001
From: dxdog@rcn.com (Jerry Keller)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:17:36 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping
References: <200106210353.f5L3ruK26668@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <00c401c0fb58$62059240$0c633bd0@z7r0l6>

Kevin... wouldn't this be equally true for braid used indoors to ground each
piece of equipment to a common bus, even though it's not as subject to a
corrosive environment?  Shouldn't solid/wide be used indoors as well?  Jerry
K3MGT

----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Rauch <w8ji@akorn.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>; Kevin Hemsley <kev@ida.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Braided Ground Strapping


> > TO BE FLEXED." part.  I had never considered braided ground straps to be
> > inferior to solid copper wire for grounding.  I had also never
considered
> > that there might be a measurable impedance in braided ground strapping
> > when compared to solid wire.  I am curious to hear what others thoughts
> > are on the matter.  Does it really make a noticeable difference to use
> > solid wire as opposed to braided strapping?
>
> From Electronic Designers Handbook page 8-25, in the section on
> transmission line..
>
> " When the outer conductor is not solid but is braided to give
> greater flexability, the attenuation in decibels per unit length due to
> resistance of the outer conductor is multiplied by a factor of
> approximately 2.75."
>
> That is for a dense, clean, braided conductor that is compacted by
> the jacket. I have other textbooks that quote even larger resistance
> changes.
>
> If you loosen the braid, so the conductors do not lay in pressure
> contact, the resistance skyrockets. My own measurements of
> braid from RG-8 cable, when removed from the cable, show clean
> fresh braid from RG-8 heats and discolors with only 8 amperes of
> 30 MHz RF. The temperature rise is about the same as a #16 solid
> wire!
>
> I visited an amplifier manufacturer and saw a prototype with RG-58
> braid from the ten meter tap of the tank to the switch. I made an off-
> hand comment to the effect "that outta get hot fast". The engineer
> snickered, fired it up, and then had his smile fade as the braid
> actually smoked and melted. He stuck in some #10 solid wire, and
> it ran cool as can be.
>
> The tarnished braid of coax that has been wet inside is by far the
> primary loss mechanism in a failed cable.
>
> Knowing what a few amperes of RF can do to braiding that is not
> clean...and with pressure between the contact points on weaves....I
> sure would hate to depend on it for lightning or RF grounds.
>
> NASA and others prohibit the use of braiding in lightning grounds,
> and you'll never see it in BC stations where the ground is involved
> in lightning or RF applications unless it is way overkill size and very
> short.
>
> One thing that doesn't hurt the system quite as much are parallel
> lays of wire that are not woven. In that case you loose only a little
> bit of effective surface area for RF, because of the stand-to-strand
> air gap at the surface. The current pushes to the outside edge of
> the individual conductors, so each individual tiny conductor has
> only a fraction of its cross section carrying current...and only the
> conductors on the outside carry any current.
>
> That's the reason Litz wire starts to fall apart at 100KHz, and by 1
> MHz or so is ineffective.
>
> People forget the current migrates to the outside edges of
> conductors, away from the wire core. Keep that in mind, and you
> can picture the problems when the conductor weaves in and out or
> when you rough up the surface by stranding or weaving the small
> wires to make a large conductor.
>
> Smooth and wide is best by far for RF, unless you have no other
> choice. That's while the foil is UNDER the braid of low loss coax,
> and why hardline has solid center conductors and shields.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Also, does anyone have any thoughts on using a flat copper common buss,
as
> > opposed to copper tubing?
> >
> > ----------------------------------
> > Kevin Hemsley
> > kev@ida.net
> > KB7TYA
> >
> >
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer?
Call
> > us for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers -
> > up to 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
> > HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com"> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> >
>
>
> 73, Tom W8JI
> W8JI@contesting.com
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>


List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
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-----
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From K7GCO@aol.com  Fri Jun 22 22:45:31 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:45:31 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Stray RF yes and no
Message-ID: <d1.85f3978.2865167b@aol.com>

                                           "STRAY RF--YES & NO!"
 This was sent to 23 others before to TT for their comments.  No one had a 
single problem with it as they had found the same things I have.  I wanted 
thank the others who confirmed my contentions that a lot of beam interference 
from guys etc was actually and mostly from other stacked beams if too close, 
RF Spill Over from bad matching systems like some badly adjusted Gamma 
Matches or coax direct feed to balanced feedpoints without a balun.  Symptoms 
frequently gets misdiagnosed!  Sometimes you get some surprises.  There is a 
simple way to fix or balance the affect of a gamma, however.  Shift the DE 
center and adjust the tip lengths and use the "K7GCO Stray RF Hand  Test"--it 
works contrary to those who haven't tried it.  Some changed to balanced 100 
ohm coax and a T Match, FD as I suggested (I may get something very useful 
started here), better baluns or baluns like a 50, 100 or 160 ohm Bazooka for 
balanced feed points and--the SWR change with rotation problems for one--just 
went away!  Isolation to SWR changes is great but may not be enough.  If you 
have an accurate E plane pattern of your beam from the manufacturer or Eznec, 
you can at least check out the E Plane by rotating the antenna.  However RF 
Spill Over can still affect the H plane pattern and often not see it on the E 
plane.  After measuring vertical patterns for years I can assure you It can 
be very evasive.
        
In one interference case reported to me an insulator at the tower for the 
guys solved the problem--or at least part of it.  Lowering the top guys 10' 
solved the problem in 5 other cases.  NOTE! I see absolutely no reason for 
guy wires or Inverted Vees at the top of a tower anyhow.  If you can't attach 
the guys 10-15' below the top of the tower--your tower is too damn weak.  I 
don't know how this ever got started?  A big 40M beam on top may be an 
exception.  A staggering question is, "why haven't others suggested this same 
thing repeatedly"--it's so "incredibly obvious."  So many bad practices like 
this get started and too many follow like sheep over a troubled cliff that 
even the TT Reflector has trouble handling.  Those trying to redirect the 
traffic with "new practices" away from the cliff edge often get ridiculed to 
oblivion also.  Progress is often made "One Death At A Time."
            
Stray RF can certainly do it's damage to F/B ratios if just right.  However 
it can be controlled and even ignored at times as the reports continue to 
come in who followed my instructions.  Actually nulls more than 30-40 dB have 
"no legitimate reason for existence anyhow."  They are usually in a real 
narrow slot, very difficult to use anyhow and are inserted into patterns by 
mother nature just so that the "RF Straw Bailers" (those who grab at stray RF 
straws excessively) have something to crow about and look smart.  They are 
kind of like the "ACLU of RF Human Rights".  Their claim they "Defend Your RF 
Rights" (nulls) like no one else but there are 3 other (nulls) the ACLU 
absolutely refuses to defend like the right to own guns and 2 others the 
Liberals don't like.  Hey that's a pretty good example if I say so myself.   
            
I shall give a "classic example" of an "extreme case" that few thought would 
be possible and apparently haven't realized it's full significance as yet.  
Lucky I didn't listen to them before I started my project on a 5 and then a 6 
band quad.  Antenna Mart has been making all band multi element quads for 
some time with great patterns.  The "Stray RF Interfering Elements" in 
question here are even:
           1. In the same plane 
           2. Resonant on each side of the operating frequency 
           3. Of the same polarization and 
           4. Very close to if not optimum spacing (optimum spacing 
                may not be used by the main elements).  
                NOTE!  These elements are capable of reflecting 
                "Major RF"--not "Stray RF."
It's a "5 band quad (20-10M) using tapered spacing (I've added 6M with a new 
twist--why not)."  However it uses "individual DE feed" with a remote coax 
switch on the tower like Antenna Mart does--the DE's are NOT all tied 
together which totally destroys the potential pattern "beyond repair" (in 
Eznec and on the air) with all this "Stray and Major RF" used in the wrong 
technical and financial way in business.  Some manufacturers actually sell 
this "Junk Stray RF Beam" to unsuspecting hams without a whimper even when 
told about it.  I seldom had to rotate the beam on CQ's even though a DX 
station would call me on the side or back.  Why hasn't any of the "Stray RF 
ACLU Experts" on TT got concerned over a real "Major Case of Stray 
RF--Industrial Strength??
           Paul Harvey said: 
        "We live in a Junk Society.  We have Junk Cars, Junk Houses, Junk 
Books, Junk Toys, Junk Movies, Junk TV's, Junk TV Programs, Junk Furniture, 
Junk Food and one city even had Junk People--they had more Suicides than 
Homicides."  We even have Junk Sex--it's less Emotional Satisfying and Junk 
Antennas, Junk RF, Junk Radios, Junk Other Ham Equipment--on and on.  They 
even sell you Warranty Insurance to help pay for the eventual repair!!  I 
have returned the last 14 items I have purchased including 3 ham rigs with 
major and expensive problems, cameras, an intermittent telephone, lenses, 
guns with dangerous design flaws, an $800 Cell phone 6 years ago, a 
Fax/Telephone combo on and on--junk junk junk.  Some Junk Designs hang on for 
years like the Gamma match.  It's taken me a while to wake up but the only 
way to eliminate this junk problem and wasted money is--don't buy anything.  
I'll keep the 3-6M Raibeams as they are built and work great--better than I 
had expected.  A tight wad friend of mine who never buys anything brings this 
to my attention all the time like for over 45 years.  I had to admit to him 
he's been right all this time.  He's got over a "million trouble free bucks 
in stocks and bonds I don't" and smiles a lot also.    
     
Tom Peters used to give talks on "Making Life Time Customers" and I have his 
and other books on it.  It's become almost a "Forgotten Concept."  There is a 
concept frequently used now by many businesses where, if you get a "lemon," 
you're told "you will eat it."  That's a very tough and sickening thing for a 
retiree, a kid or anyone to hear with their hard earned money invested.  You 
couldn't get away with that years ago and still can't from some buyers.  I'm 
told "they often still come back" so they feel justified in doing it and the 
"lemon product" is a headache for them also.  I can show many proven 
statistics that is "still bad very business."  It still makes "Stray RF 
Customers" in the Ham World.  Walmart like no other Merchant has made 
millions and millions forcing (ruthlessly some claim) suppliers to supply 
good products at a low price.  Mass sales at low profit margins has made the 
"Biggest Fortunes" like for Walmart.  Perhaps the Ham Dealers should do the 
same.  I think pressure should be put on the Junk Manufacturers of items for 
resale or direct sale.  Don't buy them!  Don't throw your money away. 
    
KC6T had a great article in QST where he tuned up a 5 band quad and used 
series fixed and selected capacitors for the final reflector length.  His 
buddy did the same with a series inductor with taps.  I guess the reasoning 
was--it was easier to make a change in the reflector bottom wire during the 
initial tune up from the roof than it was to change the entire wire length?  
Regardless both got it tuned up and it still worked great after the move from 
near the roof (house wiring, eve troughs and all that) to the top of the 
tower-for both.  How could that be??  It happens when you learn that there 
are fewer design restrictions than you have been led to believe by the "False 
RF Prophets."  In this design the reflector was slightly larger for the 
series Xc and slightly smaller with the series XL than normal when properly 
tuned.  This design actually used the same physical spacing on all bands with 
good patterns although I will compare it to tapered spacing.
        
About 40 years ago Sant G2PU found that the usual open wire shorted stub used 
for convenience to tune reflectors, "canted the free space H Plain Pattern 
off center line" (either up or down I don't remember).  Reflection Factor 
plotting with the free space pattern when tipped up or down will reduce the 
potential reflection 6 dB gain main lobe like over what I call "Liquid Copper"
--Salt Water.  Your antenna creates the "text book nulls" in the beams 
vertical pattern only over perfect ground and salt water is as close to it 
you can get.  Normal ground loss fills in the nulls bit more and for vertical 
polarization, the even higher ground reflection losses fill in the nulls and 
reduce the gain even more.  The higher the frequency the worse it is for both 
polarization's for the "Highly Abused and Misunderstood Null--It Gets No 
Respect."  However, Nulls or Dips in the pattern will put up a pretty good 
fight to survive in the E-Plane I've found and have some great configurations 
of beam patterns for verification.  The reason all those great nulls are 
shown in text books is conditions are ideal on paper.  There is no RF Spill 
Over on paper--it's non conductive.  Would you believe that if technical 
books were printed on aluminum foil, lift off of vertical patterns and 
fill-in of nulls would be shown?   
          
G2PU discovered the canting of the free space pattern when he fed his 20M 
quad vertically polarized with the single reflector stub now on the side.  
His pattern on vertically polarized sources "was not head on" and easy to see 
on the S-Meter.  So he said "enough of this design compromise total nonsense" 
and took out the stub and lengthened the reflector until he got the same 
pattern--head on.  Then he rotated the feedpoint 90 degree back for 
horizontal polarization with no tipping of the free space pattern.  You can 
have equal length stubs on each side for balanced but why have stubs at all?  
They just flop around in the wind.  After tune up they have served their 
useful purpose.  Add their length to the reflector. 
   
How much difference a single stub actually makes on typical contacts would be 
hard to tell for sure with other than 2 Quads side by side, one with and one 
without the reflector stub.  Eznec will tell the difference also at least at 
the RF Starting Blocks.  I'm sure it made at least an S-Unit or 2 
psychological difference to listen to him tell about it although he always 
had a great signal on AM with a 2 element quad on 20M.  I haven't heard him 
lately although he's still in QRZ.  Too many design and performance 
compromises are often used for convenience or to save money.  Too few design 
for "Maximum RF Clout" like Raibeam, Antenna Mart and M2.
   
Now even with no tuning stubs, no metal guys and individual feed of quad 
DE's, it would still appear listening to all the "TT Stray RF ACLU Experts" 
it would be totally impossible to get a 3, 5 or 6 band quad tuned up on ALL 
BANDS and have good patterns with good nulls.  It would seem there are just 
too many stray RF generators and are too close in the wrong place.  Are you 
sitting down--NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!  Don't you "Guys" 
ever get tired of being wrong?  All 5 bands (even 6) using .125 WL spacing 
tuned up with great patterns and nulls with tapered and fixed spacings.  
There were a couple "Unexpected Bonus."  The gains increased slightly and 
even the F/B in some nulls over what was possible from a monobander.  It 
never got worse.  I reported this on TT and all the poo poers came out of the 
computers with their ho ho ho's.  Then Cebik bless his soul, verified what I 
had found as he had found it also.  The Poo Pooers were "strangely silent."  
It was then he told me of KC6T who found good patterns on each of the 5 
bands.  He uses the same physical spacing in his design.  This is what is 
actually found when someone actually spends some time "tuning up beams" 
instead of their "TT Shooting Gallery Opinions."  
        
The H planes of yagi's and quads are always larger than the E plane in every 
pattern I've ever seen.  I have never ever seen it the same beam width except 
in a Bi Square "totally unexpected bonus"quad.  They get real close in 7 and 
8 element yagi's.  Another was this.  The 6M 2 element quad inside the 5 
other bands with symmetric loops--had the "Same Beamwidths."  Absolutely 
Incredible!  This is "Pattern Black Magic."  There was just too damn much 
Stray RF.  We just have to pass a "TT Anti-Beneficial Stray RF Law."  So Be 
it!  It's not "Technically RF Correct."  It's totally out of control in a 
beneficial manner.  We can't have that!  Someone may have a signal edge.  In 
"RF Socialism" everyone has to be the same. 
        
How could near resonant elements of a 5 or 6 band quad on each side of 3 or 4 
operating frequencies be so immune to the beams pattern?  It's violating too 
many "TT Opinion, Appliance & Band Aid Operator Laws."  Embarrassing isn't 
it?  Elevated Egos will never be the same.
            
When all the 5 band quad DE's are tied together, high levels of RF are 
clearly seen on other off band-elements in Eznec and it does indeed affect 
the patterns.  It's so bad the 10M free space pattern even tilts down at 
about 35 degrees--very grim!  That's "Major Directed RF" doing this, not "TT 
Stray RF."
            
There are many other examples I've seen that just aren't doing hardly 
anything but then there are those that do like a towers affect on a 
vertically polarized beam.  I know all the major ones and have battled them 
for years.  They are clearly seen in a pattern recorder.  I just found a new 
one just spinning the beam that has been unrecognized even with Eznec now and 
will report on it.  Under "perfect conditions" I felt I had a vertically 
polarized H plane pattern upset with stacked beams with certain spacings.  RF 
got on the separating boom of the wrong polarization.  I found the reason, a 
simple solution and solved the problem.  
            
With individual DE feed of 5 or 6 band quads, some RF levels are actually 
shown on off-elements in Eznec and recorded in the Current Charts.  Yet great 
patterns result which absolutely defy TT common misguided opinions.  
          
I also excited the higher and lower frequency DE than Fo and great patterns 
still were maintained--some even better.  I was surprised myself but I dig 
into areas that few would think productive all the time.  It blew up the 
theory of resonant DE's were needed other than for a resistive feedpoint.  I 
had thought of feeding the quad with open wire line and this off band DE 
would be reactive one way or the other depending which one was used.  I felt 
the Match Box could handle this from the Z's I saw and similar examples.  
That's an interesting concept of feeding the off band DE and getting a great 
pattern.  More on this later.
          
It's my plan to add a "new performance wrinkle" to an all band 2 element quad 
by adding variable Xc's in each reflector all ganged together to a selsyn on 
the mast so I can tune for max F/B or Gain anywhere in any band on all bands. 
 I'll determine the free space pattern cant if any of the H Plain in Eznec 
and tilt the boom accordingly to compensate.  There are little tricks away 
and around some problems and in some cases certain levels of "The Dreaded 
Stray RF Isn't All That Bad" even right in the bedroom under the sheets so to 
speak.  If you learn how RF really flows when and where, what different 
levels do, you can learn how to talk to RF figuratively speaking--it will 
behave.
            
I'll feed this quad with 100 ohm balanced coax into a match box in the shack 
which will assure max RF into the coax input and anywhere in the band with 
whatever the configuration is used.  That could be considered a very useful 
feature--in particular in a contest and no beam has it yet.  Although guy 
wires are out of the main plane, often non resonant, of the wrong 
polarization, spacing and sometimes in a pattern null, I'll run some guy wire 
stray RF tests in the pattern and SWR curve when I rotate it just to ease my 
and other's curiosity in case they ask--or demand.  I leave no RF Stones and 
RF Burns unturned.  A lot of all this was determined, observed and made use 
of by many even long before Eznec so little of this is really new info. 
             
While I'm on a roll here I really like 1/2 wave verticals whenever possible 
in particular on 40M and on up for many reasons.  I've had a couple of 
articles on these 1/2 waves in CQ some 35 years ago.  All these radial 
problems go away although a screen around the base when close to the ground 
has been known to help--even at WWVH.  If the base is high enough the ground 
screen could probably be done away with.  I'll try it with and without.  I 
use 1/2 waves with an another unusual but simple design now on top of 
monobanders for "listening antennas" as my F/B patterns are so good on some 
beams (even with stray RF guys) I'd miss a lot of stations off the back and 
side without the 1/2 wave vertical to switch to.  I can run them together 
with different phasings.  It often does great just by itself.  I've used 1/4 
wave verticals over the beams DE also as the radials.  Why this hasn't caught 
on I'll never know.  
   
I have a 6M 1/2 wave on the roof now for monitoring.  The 6M Raibeam 5 
element "Butt Kicker" I have 30' higher has such a good F/B/Side (even with 
2-6M beams below it), I needed the 1/2 wave vertical  for monitoring.  When 
an opening occurs on 6M you don't want to miss it from any direction and it 
can be weak.  NOTE! If certain of my or the 5 element Raibeams unusual 
F/B/Side ratio's wasn't as good as it is, I wouldn't need the 1/2 wave 
monitoring vertical.  Apparently many have never had a beam with exceptional 
F/B/Side!!  What have you been doing all these years in advancing the state 
of the art?  Show me some examples.  I have some that I haven't even 
mentioned yet.  
         
There is a "reverse concept" I have observed.  I've told of the 10M 3 element 
I have tuned for "absolute max gain of 10.2 dBi."  No manufacturer has ever 
tuned a beam that way.  It has 8 dB F/B, narrow bandwidth and 6 ohms in the 
center of the DE.  The director is actually longer than the DE.  I feed it in 
a sneaky way at a 50 ohm feedpoint with "Absolutely No RF Spill Over."  The 
coax shield and center of the DE attached to the boom is "RF Stone Cold."  
Would you believe that a "RF Frost" appears there after a long transmission.  
Another phenomena occurs with 8 dB F/B I didn't expect.  After a transmission 
running legal power the back lobe clears the frequency so well it leaves a 
"Signal Black Hole" for the same length of time before it fills in.  That's 
"Infinite F/B."  In 3 years using the beam I don't remember having to repeat 
anything.  Contesters find this useful and have been known to have another 
final on a beam pointing the other way leaving the impression or stating they 
have poor F/B.  Now you know.  With a beam where max F/B and/or Gain can be 
selected, one could also transmit with max gain and listen with max F/B.  
That's a great idea. 

This beam has another great advantage.  With poor F/B you don't have to worry 
about Stray RF filling in the nulls--it might create one--heaven forbid.  It 
could really silence the "Stray RF ALCU Birds" forever!  
    
Antenna design is very interesting if you learn how to massage the RF and put 
it to work for you.  Few know the joy of a "fast rotator and a great beam 
pattern.  When you call them--they stay called."  And I now have 3 ways to 
cure and extend the narrow band width of this or any beam even more.  
      
I had a 5 element 6M yagi on a 16' boom 10' below this 10M beam and when 
installed it didn't change the SWR a bit of either one.  The vertical 
patterns of each and the very tight max gain coupling between the 10M 
elements apparently really isolated it from the 6M beam.  Both worked great.
         
I worked KE6IHA on 6M using a Cush Craft Ringo vertical that is really an 
"Extended Double Zepp" of 3 dB gain design like their 2M Ringo.  Running 700W 
he has worked a lot of DX on 6M using it much to my surprise.  That's one of 
the few reports I've had of this although I know very well what 1/2 waves 
will do on all bands--except 6M.  This caught my immediate attention.  I've 
only heard JA's for DX 2 years ago on 6M once although they were coming into 
Seattle last week and I missed them.  My 1/2 wave will be mounted on top of 
the 5 element Raibeam shortly.  I want to see how well it will work up there 
at any distance on 6M.  I will then make my version of the 6M Ringo.  The 
Ringo is actually a very poor design.  The ring at the base is really the 
inductor of a tank circuit to match a Hi-Z at the end of the antenna and 
tapped at the 50 ohm point.  But it has the highest RF Spill Over down the 
mast of any vertical in Ham radio.  The higher you mount it the worse it 
works as more of the lift-off of the vertical pattern occurs.  The mast or 
tower is heavily excited like a long wire and dominates.  When the 2M AEA 
Isopole came out with the double radial skirt to kill RF Spill Over once and 
for all, Ringo added radials below the Ring Tank Circuit.  Unfortunately they 
didn't understand exactly what they were doing and trying to copy it, added 
radials 1/8 WL lower and not 1/4 WL lower at the maximum high voltage and 
Hi-Z area where they are the most effective as "RF Spill Over Killers."  They 
were close but "No Cigars."  When I told them "they missed by 1/8 wave," 
their eyes rolled.  I don't think they understood what I said as they didn't 
change it. 
            
A local Marine Antenna Manufacturer has a similar "pattern lift off problem" 
with a the 156 MHz vertical and don't know why.  These pattern lift off 
problems created by "Major Stray RF" are still virtually "Best Kept Secrets." 
 The previous owners had stolen an antenna design from me and it had RF Spill 
Over they didn't know how to stop and had then had the guts to ask me how!  I 
will offer a solution to the new owners for a respectable fee.  I applied the 
fix to one of their type antennas that can't be seen on the outside, will 
demonstrate and then we will negotiate.  I hope I get out of there alive and 
with some folding stuff.
            
The Ringo, the 2 Marine verticals and several others including some Ham 
verticals on the market are really nothing more than: 
           "50 ohm matching devices for the coax to the mast."  
    
        "So it can be seen that 1:1 SWR is not the full picture in   
             evaluating an antenna with or without Stray RF but 
                                       it's a good place to start."  
    
 It's like kissing on the hand--you have got to start some where!
    
The frequently neglected, hard to measure and evasive vertical pattern is 
very important.  The key to performance is seen mostly in the free space 
vertical pattern--is it at 0 degrees or on the horizon?  Learn how to 
evaluate and control it once mounted on a tower.  Dominate signals can be the 
result.  You may be accused of running big power.  I know the feeling.  
Record the weak DX station and play it back or point out "you hear the weak 
ones better than they do or not at all."  Sometimes they will call you from 
across town (and across the country) to see if you are talking to yourself.  
They "Absolutely Fry in Their Frustrations" hearing on the phone what they 
don't hear.  Bill Wall has had that happen using his quads.  That's a big 
clue you have got an unusual beam.  Unfortunately few will ask how it is 
done?  They will ask about the receiver and seldom about the antenna?  
      
Another clue of Stray RF and beams too close to each other is RF in the 
Shack.  If Compression is used on SSB Stray RF there can easily get into the 
audio in some rigs.  This usually happens when no balun is used.   
    
    Summation: All Stray RF isn't all that bad as some have claimed.  If it 
was the 6 band 2 element quad wouldn't be possible.  Proper design does 
reduce it as much as possible. 

I've covered most of bases in this post to suppress most of the nit pickers.  
I did add something a sharp nit picker could jump on.  Let's see if any of 
them catch it?  I put something in for everybody.  K7GCO                      
                                   
       

List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
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-----
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From na4m@arrl.net  Sat Jun 23 00:09:01 2001
From: na4m@arrl.net (Phil Duff)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:09:01 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] log periodic antennas
In-Reply-To: <006401c0fb2b$08c88b60$7d5a56d1@default>
References: <LNBBILANEJPNFNGIELAIIEOPCHAA.thorh@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010622225912.01ff26b0@pop.cox-internet.com>

I've been curious about log periodics myself.

The ARRL Antenna Handbook 17th Ed. has a 5 band (13-30mhz) design on a
26 ft boom with 12 elements.

The article text on pg 10-10 states in part:  "...this is a large array.... 
with the same gain
one would expect with a full size two-element Yagi array:"

I acknowledge the benefits of the LP including bandwidth, feed impedance, etc.
but for a 26 ft boom and 12 elements I'd hoped for more than 2-element
Yagi performance.

73 Phil NA4M

At 10:53 6/22/01 -0400, David L. Thompson wrote:
>A local uses the T10 and says it plays as well as his big Telrex tri-bander
>that he had before.  The pattern is broader but you get low SWR and the
>ability to QSY quickly.  In contesting (S02R!) or Dxing  you follow the old
>Nathan Bedford Forrest axiom "The winner gets there the fastest with the
>most"
>
>73 Dave K4JRB
>
>
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
>HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
>FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
>Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
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-. .- ....- --   -. .- ....- --   -. .- ....- --   -. .- ....- --   -. .- 
....- --
Phil Duff NA4M     na4m@arrl.net   Georgetown, Texas  


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From n4zr@contesting.com  Sat Jun 23 00:53:42 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:53:42 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] log periodic antennas
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010622225912.01ff26b0@pop.cox-internet.com>
References: <006401c0fb2b$08c88b60$7d5a56d1@default>
 <LNBBILANEJPNFNGIELAIIEOPCHAA.thorh@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010622195342.00a58c60@mail.abs.adelphia.net>

At 11:09 PM 6/22/01 +0000, Phil Duff wrote:
>I've been curious about log periodics myself.
>
>The ARRL Antenna Handbook 17th Ed. has a 5 band (13-30mhz) design on a
>26 ft boom with 12 elements.
>
>The article text on pg 10-10 states in part:  "...this is a large array.... 
>with the same gain
>one would expect with a full size two-element Yagi array:"
>
>I acknowledge the benefits of the LP including bandwidth, feed impedance,
etc.
>but for a 26 ft boom and 12 elements I'd hoped for more than 2-element
>Yagi performance.

But that's about what you get.  Anything else is puffery, IMO.

73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From thorh@worldnet.att.net  Sat Jun 23 02:09:26 2001
From: thorh@worldnet.att.net (Thor Hallen)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:09:26 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] log periodic antennas
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010622225912.01ff26b0@pop.cox-internet.com>
Message-ID: <LNBBILANEJPNFNGIELAICEPDCHAA.thorh@worldnet.att.net>

The log periodic design in the ARRL Antenna Handbook is not one that I would
recommend. I have made comparisons with another local ham working common DX
stations simultaneously and concluded that the Tennadyne T6 with a 12 foot
boom performs at least as well as the C3SS that it replaced with a 12 foot
boom on 20, 15 and 10 meters and is superior on 12 and 17 meters. It is also
nice to be able to operate on the MARS net frequencies outside the amateur
bands and have good SWL reception for things like WWV. As a bonus, the T6
also performs quite well on 6 meters. The versatility is well worth a small
loss in directivity to me. Also, I have CC&R antenna restrictions and was
pleased that people have commenting that "the new antenna is much more
attractive than the old one".

Thor Hallen K5AGE

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Phil Duff
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 4:09 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] log periodic antennas


I've been curious about log periodics myself.

The ARRL Antenna Handbook 17th Ed. has a 5 band (13-30mhz) design on a
26 ft boom with 12 elements.

The article text on pg 10-10 states in part:  "...this is a large array....
with the same gain
one would expect with a full size two-element Yagi array:"

I acknowledge the benefits of the LP including bandwidth, feed impedance,
etc.
but for a 26 ft boom and 12 elements I'd hoped for more than 2-element
Yagi performance.

73 Phil NA4M


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From nielsen@oz.net  Sat Jun 23 02:26:19 2001
From: nielsen@oz.net (Bob Nielsen)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:26:19 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] log periodic antennas
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010622225912.01ff26b0@pop.cox-internet.com>
Message-ID: <20010622182618.A10555@oz.net>

On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 11:09:01PM +0000, Phil Duff wrote:
> I've been curious about log periodics myself.
> 
> The ARRL Antenna Handbook 17th Ed. has a 5 band (13-30mhz) design on a
> 26 ft boom with 12 elements.
> 
> The article text on pg 10-10 states in part:  "...this is a large
> array....  with the same gain one would expect with a full size
> two-element Yagi array:"
> 
> I acknowledge the benefits of the LP including bandwidth, feed impedance, etc.
> but for a 26 ft boom and 12 elements I'd hoped for more than 2-element
> Yagi performance.

Conventional wisdom says that the longer the boom is and the more
elements the array has, the higher will be the gain.  However in the
case of a LPDA, only a few of the elements (the active region where the
element length is approximately one-half wavelength) are actually
radiating at any one frequency.  This was explained by Isbell in his
1960 IRE article (summarized in W8JK's Antennas, 2nd edition).

There ain't no free lunches; there are only a few inexpensive ones.

73, Bob N7XY

-- 
Bob Nielsen, N7XY                          nielsen@oz.net
Bainbridge Island, WA                      http://www.oz.net/~nielsen
IOTA NA-065, USI WA-028S 

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From n4kg@juno.com  Sat Jun 23 05:14:57 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:14:57 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] log periodic antennas
Message-ID: <20010622.221601.-186189.0.N4KG@juno.com>

"The versatility is well worth  a small loss in directivity to me. "

This is a reasonable trade off, i.e. versatility vs. performance.

I assume you do understand that antenna gain comes from directivity 
and therefore, a loss of directivity represents a loss of GAIN.

The W2PV Yagi Antenna Book has a curve showing gain vs.
boom length for 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 element Yagi's.  The curves
are fairly close to each other where there is sufficient coupling
between elements.  The gain curve is NOT linear, i.e. it rises
fairly rapidly from .15 to .35 WL and again from .7 to .9 WL
>From .35 to .7 WL, the slope of the gain curve is less.
Gain vs. Boom Length is roughly as follows:

WL	EL	Gain (dBi)

.15	2	6-7

.25	3	6.5-7.5

.35	3,4	8.0 - 8.5

.45	4,5	

.55	4,5	slow  rise in gain vs boom length in this region

.65	4,5

.75	4,5,6	10.5

At BEST, multiband Yagi's approach the gain of short boom
3L Yagi's.  Many have even less gain, more closely resembling
the gain of 2L full size Yagi's.  This also includes typical LP 
antennas.  If you want maximum gain, you need to go to
monoband antennas (or stacks), preferably on separate towers.
There is no free lunch.

Tom  N4KG

On Fri, 22 Jun 2001  "Thor Hallen" <thorh@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> The log periodic design in the ARRL Antenna Handbook is not one that 
> I would
> recommend. I have made comparisons with another local ham working 
> common DX
> stations simultaneously and concluded that the Tennadyne T6 with a 
> 12 foot
> boom performs at least as well as the C3SS that it replaced with a 
> 12 foot
> boom on 20, 15 and 10 meters and is superior on 12 and 17 meters. It 
> is also
> nice to be able to operate on the MARS net frequencies outside the 
> amateur
> bands and have good SWL reception for things like WWV. As a bonus, 
> the T6
> also performs quite well on 6 meters. The versatility is well worth 
> a small
> loss in directivity to me. Also, I have CC&R antenna restrictions 
> and was
> pleased that people have commenting that "the new antenna is much 
> more
> attractive than the old one".
> 
> Thor Hallen K5AGE
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> [mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Phil Duff
> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 4:09 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] log periodic antennas
> 
> 
> I've been curious about log periodics myself.
> 
> The ARRL Antenna Handbook 17th Ed. has a 5 band (13-30mhz) design on 
> a
> 26 ft boom with 12 elements.
> 
> The article text on pg 10-10 states in part:  "...this is a large 
> array....
> with the same gain
> one would expect with a full size two-element Yagi array:"
> 
> I acknowledge the benefits of the LP including bandwidth, feed 
> impedance,
> etc.
> but for a 26 ft boom and 12 elements I'd hoped for more than 
> 2-element
> Yagi performance.
> 
> 73 Phil NA4M
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
> Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers 
> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> 

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From K7NV@contesting.com  Sat Jun 23 04:46:18 2001
From: K7NV@contesting.com (Kurt Andress)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:46:18 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Roihn Guy Bracket GA25GD?
References: <000901c0fb51$0169af40$b0561d82@sg2939h> <3B339D1A.5E413281@tcac.net>
Message-ID: <3B34110A.C84F1BE5@contesting.com>

Richard Thorne wrote:
> 
> Steve:
> 
> Either will work, I've done it both ways.  I like the GA25GD attach method though.  Much
> easier to attach the guys', and would be easier to remove if  the guy locations on the
> tower needed to be changed. Not sure if it helps tower torqueing (rotation).
> 
> If you can afford them, I'd get them.
> 

I'd agree. 
The bracket reinforces the tower section by connecting all three legs together so the
entire tower section shares the guy loads, without the bracing welds to the legs
having to do that job. 
This bracket doesn't do anything for torque.


> Steve/n0tu wrote:
> 
> > I see Rohn recommends their guy assembly (GA25GD) accessory for attaching
> > guys to the tower. How many folks are actually using these verses attaching
> > to a single leg?  Are these brackets the preferred approach amoungst TTers?
> > Since it meets the MFGers specs my guess is this is the way to go? Right?
> > Comments?
> >
> > Any chance someone have some they're not using? Please advise.
> >
> > FYI, my installation will be 40' (later may go to 60' max) of Rohn 25 w/7sq'
> > of antenna 2' above thurst bearing. 3-guy (4A) burried concrete anchors on
> > 50ft radius using 3/16" EHS. County wind rating is 85MPH (but I 've seen
> > 100MPH plus winds at my QTH!)
> >
> > Steve/n0tu
> >

Remember, the 85 Mph County rating is "the fastest mile (of wind)" speed, that means
it is the average speed for the passage of one mile of wind. You could easily see 100
Mph peak speeds simply be selecting the right averaging period. If you really want to
impress folks, pick a real short averaging time span, like .5 seconds, at some
location where the wind speeds will naturally peak around the structure, and it will
collect that big number, when it occurs.
What were the averaging parameters of the device used to read the 100 mph you saw? If
we know that, we can probably process it to find out what it means in fastest mile
speed, might mean 75.

What any of us read on some gizmo probably won't change what it means to our tower
design, unless we really understand what the gizmo is doing. The tower design is
usually following an established spec, and it's measurement of wind speed. That's why
all those folks did all that work to boil the problem down to something that would be
manageable and useful. This goes back to the recent discussion about the anomalous
nature of load generation by the wind. I think KR7X, AA4LR, and K3NA did a nice job.

We can either follow the published methods based on the previous work, or we can set
out to invent our own. 
Someone please warn me when we decide we're gonna do that. My wife says we got some
weeds that need pulling.

Everyone have fun this weekend, c some of you on the air.

-- 
73, Kurt, K7NV

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From ei8ic@eircom.net  Sat Jun 23 12:04:46 2001
From: ei8ic@eircom.net (Tim Makins,  EI8IC)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 12:04:46 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Fw: Shipping of heavy machinery
Message-ID: <00f301c0fbd4$58c1ac60$378691c2@c1o1c2>

Forwarded from another list - I thought it might be of interest to people
moving towers :
Tim www.qsl.net/ei8ic/

> Shipping: Heavy steel and iron Things, like power hammers, welding
> tables and other Blacksmith toys!!!!
>
> A  year ago I had shipped to me, a 10,000 lb. power hammer, 1800 miles.
> I had a X-way truck wrecker on call to pick it off the low-boy and place
> it 300 feet from the low-boy.
>
> The cost of  less then normal load "10,000 lb.  $600.00
> The cost of the heavy duty wrecker  $80.00.
> (the wrecker didn't even have to put his outriggers out at 10,000
> lb..!!!)
>
> Follow the instructions below....
>
> Find a "less then normal load carrier",
> "Open low-boy"
> "Yes two or three weeks is ok till you fill your load"
> "No I do not need a tarp"
> "Yes you can use a chain!!!"
> "It's OK if your chain knocks off some Paint"
> " Yes I will have a way to remove the item from your truck, right when
> you show up"
> It works!
> Its Cheep!
> Its Fun!!!!



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From davidw@copper.net  Sat Jun 23 13:22:54 2001
From: davidw@copper.net (David J. Windisch)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:22:54 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Stray RF yes and no
References: <d1.85f3978.2865167b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c0fbdf$3abb3500$2fa71cd8@davidw>

Hi, Ken:

Seems to me, re-reading some of your earlier archived posts, that you see
TTers as blind squirrels who still manage to find an acorn from time to
time.

There are many 'acorns' which make for loud signals, and many
'blind-squirrel-hams' finding and sharing the kernels of wisdom on TT.

Taking another anthropomorphism, your posts make me think of a Border Collie
amid felines as far as the eye can see.

Ideas may be good, bad, or mixtures of either quality, but, no matter what
their merit,  they generally get a chilly reception when the presenter comes
across as a scold.

I wish you well.   When will I hear your signal, loudly or otherwise, on the
bands?    Last time was a long time ago.

73, Dave, K3BHJ


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From K7LXC@aol.com  Sat Jun 23 13:57:22 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:57:22 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] New Chinese yagis
Message-ID: <12d.6df951.2865ec32@aol.com>

Greetings, TowerTalkians --

    I was alerted to these new Chinese yagis by Fred Laun, K3ZO. Hopefully 
this is an indicator of increased interest and activity for amateur radio in 
China. http://www.ba4ed.com/

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech

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From K7NV@contesting.com  Sat Jun 23 17:56:25 2001
From: K7NV@contesting.com (Kurt Andress)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:56:25 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Roihn Guy Bracket GA25GD?
References: <fc.8246922.2865ef1c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B34CA39.AE60070E@contesting.com>

K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 6/22/01 8:45:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> K7NV@contesting.com writes:
> 
> > This bracket doesn't do anything for torque.
> 
>     You sure about this? I talked to the Rohn factory about this when they
> discontinued and then started up again production of the long revered 'torque
> arms'.
> 
>     Hams had been using the torque arms for years and "knew" intuitively that
> they contributed "something" to the torque resisitance of the tower. When
> Rohn upgraded to a new TIA-222 rev (this was awhile ago so it might have been
> Rev. C or D) and they ran the calcs, they found that the standard torque arms
> didn't really contribute anything to tower torque resistance. They determined
> that they were primarily useful for when the tower was climbed; hence the
> "psychological help" they provided with little or no actual usefullness. Rohn
> decided to convert over to the new design with the oval rings.
> 
>     Well, hams hit the roof because "we've always used them, therefore they
> must be useful" and Rohn resumed production of the old TA's in spite of their
> marginal usefulness.
> 
> Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC



Here's what I read in the posts I responded to Steve,

Steve/n0tu wrote:
> 
> I see Rohn recommends their guy assembly (GA25GD) accessory for attaching
> guys to the tower.

SNIP

Richard Thorne wrote:
> 
> Steve:
> 
> Either will work, I've done it both ways.  I like the GA25GD attach method though.


The Rohn catalogue I bought from you says:

Guy Bracket
GA25GD
Mounts to tower at any tower at any horizontal brace.

Torque bars
TB25D (not shown)
Optional for use with GA25GD


Did either of those posts say anything about torque bars? Rohn is pretty clear that
they aren't included in the GA25GD.

I simply assumed those fellows meant what they said. I know I did.

Now, that torque bars are part of the discussion, you seem to have covered it.

-- 
73, Kurt, K7NV

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From ei8ic@eircom.net  Sat Jun 23 18:54:57 2001
From: ei8ic@eircom.net (Tim Makins,  EI8IC)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 18:54:57 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Fw: Shipping of heavy machinery
References: <00f301c0fbd4$58c1ac60$378691c2@c1o1c2> <3B34A959.734644C@lmceng.com>
Message-ID: <000701c0fc7f$5e6509e0$7c8691c2@c1o1c2>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry McDavid" <lmcdavid@lmceng.com>
To: "Tim Makins, EI8IC" <ei8ic@eircom.net>
Sent: 23 June 2001 15:36
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Fw: Shipping of heavy machinery

> My daddy was a welder in a marine boilermaker shop; he taught a lot of
> women to weld during WW2 (yeah, well, for better or worse)

So that's why those Liberty Ships kept sinking...

And I always thought it was the U-boats !

Tim, EI8IC


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From K7LXC@aol.com  Sun Jun 24 18:53:33 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 13:53:33 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tilt antenna questions
Message-ID: <104.52a1814.2867831d@aol.com>

Howdy, TowerTalkians --

    Here's a question that has never been asked on TowerTalk before! They're 
pretty rare but nonetheless pop up occasionally.

    What I need to do is to tilt a KT34A from its normal horizontally 
polarized position to a vertical position. The antenna will be mounted on a 
UST crank-up and the antenna needs to be vertical when the tower is down so 
the antenna can be "stored" in a vertical position when it's not being used. 
The problem is due to the fact that the antenna hangs over the neighbor's 
property and the neighbor has asked that it not be over his property when 
it's not being used. 

    Okay. So what I've got is a moderately small triband antenna with a 3" 
boom. I want to use the Yaesu G-550 elevation rotator which has a boom 
capacity of 1-5/8" (1.625"). The options as I see them are: 1) convert the 3" 
boom to a 1-5/8" one or 2) put some sort of smaller boom splice in the KT34A 
so that the part of the antenna at the elevation rotator will fit thru it.

    Option 1 means that the 3" KLM insulated Lexan element brackets will 
either have to be scrapped or adapted to the smaller boomsize. Any ideas how 
to do either one?

    Option 2 means some 'cut-and-hack' work on the boom plus some machine 
shop fabrication but lets me use the rest of the existing boom and hardware. 

    Wadda ya think? Can you think of any other options? All input appreciated.

Cheers & tnx,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech 

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From ve6yc@home.com  Sun Jun 24 18:23:33 2001
From: ve6yc@home.com (Peter Larsen)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 18:23:33 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] C4sxl and Yeasu 800
Message-ID: <3B362215.4F5CD908@home.com>

Hello All:
I have a stack of:
Hygain 1 elem 40 dipole
M2 6M7
Hygain TH6-DXX
I have been using a Yaesu 800  to rotate it. So of course 
the gears are now broken in the rotator.
I am thinking of putting up a C4sxl to replace the HF antennas
and just sell off the 6M7.

My question is:
Will the Yaesu 800 handle the C4sxl? I have a spare one sitting
in my basement off of my short tower.

BTW the C4 will be at 72 feet.

(if there are any merchants lurking on the list please feel free
to contact me off of the list as to price and shipping of a
C4sxl.
I am in Western Canada.) 
-- 
 Peter J. Larsen
 

> Is there another word for synonym?
http://members.home.net/ve6yc

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From info@cal-av.com  Sun Jun 24 19:33:09 2001
From: info@cal-av.com (Kenneth Hirschberg)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:33:09 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tilt antenna questions
References: <104.52a1814.2867831d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001401c0fcdc$1ec1b5b0$5067530c@cx905154a>

Steve - You might consider a tilt cradle design, such as used on the booms
for large beams, and a linear actuator.
Ken, K6HPX
----- Original Message -----
From: <K7LXC@aol.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 10:53 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tilt antenna questions


> Howdy, TowerTalkians --
>
>     Here's a question that has never been asked on TowerTalk before!
They're
> pretty rare but nonetheless pop up occasionally.
>
>     What I need to do is to tilt a KT34A from its normal horizontally
> polarized position to a vertical position. The antenna will be mounted on
a
> UST crank-up and the antenna needs to be vertical when the tower is down
so
> the antenna can be "stored" in a vertical position when it's not being
used.
> The problem is due to the fact that the antenna hangs over the neighbor's
> property and the neighbor has asked that it not be over his property when
> it's not being used.
>
>     Okay. So what I've got is a moderately small triband antenna with a 3"
> boom. I want to use the Yaesu G-550 elevation rotator which has a boom
> capacity of 1-5/8" (1.625"). The options as I see them are: 1) convert the
3"
> boom to a 1-5/8" one or 2) put some sort of smaller boom splice in the
KT34A
> so that the part of the antenna at the elevation rotator will fit thru it.
>
>     Option 1 means that the 3" KLM insulated Lexan element brackets will
> either have to be scrapped or adapted to the smaller boomsize. Any ideas
how
> to do either one?
>
>     Option 2 means some 'cut-and-hack' work on the boom plus some machine
> shop fabrication but lets me use the rest of the existing boom and
hardware.
>
>     Wadda ya think? Can you think of any other options? All input
appreciated.
>
> Cheers & tnx,    Steve    K7LXC
> Tower Tech
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>



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From franknorton@home.com  Sun Jun 24 21:52:53 2001
From: franknorton@home.com (Frank Norton)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 16:52:53 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] LOG PERIODICS
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010624164910.00a42a00@mail>

hi all,

i too am considering a tennadyve or other brand of log periodic, any input 
would be appreciated!  Thanks All.

73 de,  Frank kb8xu


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From eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com  Sun Jun 24 22:42:04 2001
From: eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com (Eugene Jensen)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 17:42:04 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tilt antenna questions
In-Reply-To: <104.52a1814.2867831d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CPEFKNIOLPDOBHEPLMKMOEGLCBAA.eugenejensen@nyc.rr.com>

I feel you would be better served by cutting and doing the machine shop
work, I would have a 1-5/8 stock cut to the length needed and both ends be
threaded OD and make two 1-5/8 to the size needed also threaded ID and the
OD machine to slip back into the cut boom, and then bolt the mast though the
adaptor's in at least two places on both ends. I also would put a roll pin
though the threaded parts. Sure keeps things from moveing and allows one to
take apart later if one has to change a rotor. 73's Gene K2QWD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of K7LXC@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 1:54 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tilt antenna questions


Howdy, TowerTalkians --

    Here's a question that has never been asked on TowerTalk before! They're
pretty rare but nonetheless pop up occasionally.

    What I need to do is to tilt a KT34A from its normal horizontally
polarized position to a vertical position. The antenna will be mounted on a
UST crank-up and the antenna needs to be vertical when the tower is down so
the antenna can be "stored" in a vertical position when it's not being used.
The problem is due to the fact that the antenna hangs over the neighbor's
property and the neighbor has asked that it not be over his property when
it's not being used.

    Okay. So what I've got is a moderately small triband antenna with a 3"
boom. I want to use the Yaesu G-550 elevation rotator which has a boom
capacity of 1-5/8" (1.625"). The options as I see them are: 1) convert the
3"
boom to a 1-5/8" one or 2) put some sort of smaller boom splice in the KT34A
so that the part of the antenna at the elevation rotator will fit thru it.

    Option 1 means that the 3" KLM insulated Lexan element brackets will
either have to be scrapped or adapted to the smaller boomsize. Any ideas how
to do either one?

    Option 2 means some 'cut-and-hack' work on the boom plus some machine
shop fabrication but lets me use the rest of the existing boom and hardware.

    Wadda ya think? Can you think of any other options? All input
appreciated.

Cheers & tnx,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech

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From billwall@bellsouth.net  Sun Jun 24 22:50:29 2001
From: billwall@bellsouth.net (bill wall)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 17:50:29 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] LOG PERIODICS
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010624164910.00a42a00@mail>
Message-ID: <000f01c0fcf7$b001bf00$5d4bd6d1@billwall>

Hi TT's;
I think on LPY's it would be wise to contact K4EWG, Pete Rhodes. He
published many articles on LPY's. He had a world class LPY station for many
years. Living today I do not believe there is a better LPY designer. Sorry
Pete.
                            Bill  KC4UZ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Norton" <franknorton@home.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 4:52 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] LOG PERIODICS


> hi all,
>
> i too am considering a tennadyve or other brand of log periodic, any input
> would be appreciated!  Thanks All.
>
> 73 de,  Frank kb8xu
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>



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From billwall@bellsouth.net  Sun Jun 24 22:52:44 2001
From: billwall@bellsouth.net (bill wall)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 17:52:44 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Stray RF yes and no
References: <d1.85f3978.2865167b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001501c0fcf8$00930d20$5d4bd6d1@billwall>

Hi All TT's;
I agree with Ken on this one. The K7GCO hand RF burn test hurts. He is
correct.
                                               Bill  KC4UZ
----- Original Message -----
From: <K7GCO@aol.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 5:45 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Stray RF yes and no


>                                            "STRAY RF--YES & NO!"
>  This was sent to 23 others before to TT for their comments.  No one had a
> single problem with it as they had found the same things I have.  I wanted
> thank the others who confirmed my contentions that a lot of beam
interference
> from guys etc was actually and mostly from other stacked beams if too
close,
> RF Spill Over from bad matching systems like some badly adjusted Gamma
> Matches or coax direct feed to balanced feedpoints without a balun.
Symptoms
> frequently gets misdiagnosed!  Sometimes you get some surprises.  There is
a
> simple way to fix or balance the affect of a gamma, however.  Shift the DE
> center and adjust the tip lengths and use the "K7GCO Stray RF Hand
Test"--it
> works contrary to those who haven't tried it.  Some changed to balanced
100
> ohm coax and a T Match, FD as I suggested (I may get something very useful
> started here), better baluns or baluns like a 50, 100 or 160 ohm Bazooka
for
> balanced feed points and--the SWR change with rotation problems for
one--just
> went away!  Isolation to SWR changes is great but may not be enough.  If
you
> have an accurate E plane pattern of your beam from the manufacturer or
Eznec,
> you can at least check out the E Plane by rotating the antenna.  However
RF
> Spill Over can still affect the H plane pattern and often not see it on
the E
> plane.  After measuring vertical patterns for years I can assure you It
can
> be very evasive.
>
> In one interference case reported to me an insulator at the tower for the
> guys solved the problem--or at least part of it.  Lowering the top guys
10'
> solved the problem in 5 other cases.  NOTE! I see absolutely no reason for
> guy wires or Inverted Vees at the top of a tower anyhow.  If you can't
attach
> the guys 10-15' below the top of the tower--your tower is too damn weak.
I
> don't know how this ever got started?  A big 40M beam on top may be an
> exception.  A staggering question is, "why haven't others suggested this
same
> thing repeatedly"--it's so "incredibly obvious."  So many bad practices
like
> this get started and too many follow like sheep over a troubled cliff that
> even the TT Reflector has trouble handling.  Those trying to redirect the
> traffic with "new practices" away from the cliff edge often get ridiculed
to
> oblivion also.  Progress is often made "One Death At A Time."
>
> Stray RF can certainly do it's damage to F/B ratios if just right.
However
> it can be controlled and even ignored at times as the reports continue to
> come in who followed my instructions.  Actually nulls more than 30-40 dB
have
> "no legitimate reason for existence anyhow."  They are usually in a real
> narrow slot, very difficult to use anyhow and are inserted into patterns
by
> mother nature just so that the "RF Straw Bailers" (those who grab at stray
RF
> straws excessively) have something to crow about and look smart.  They are
> kind of like the "ACLU of RF Human Rights".  Their claim they "Defend Your
RF
> Rights" (nulls) like no one else but there are 3 other (nulls) the ACLU
> absolutely refuses to defend like the right to own guns and 2 others the
> Liberals don't like.  Hey that's a pretty good example if I say so myself.
>
> I shall give a "classic example" of an "extreme case" that few thought
would
> be possible and apparently haven't realized it's full significance as yet.
> Lucky I didn't listen to them before I started my project on a 5 and then
a 6
> band quad.  Antenna Mart has been making all band multi element quads for
> some time with great patterns.  The "Stray RF Interfering Elements" in
> question here are even:
>            1. In the same plane
>            2. Resonant on each side of the operating frequency
>            3. Of the same polarization and
>            4. Very close to if not optimum spacing (optimum spacing
>                 may not be used by the main elements).
>                 NOTE!  These elements are capable of reflecting
>                 "Major RF"--not "Stray RF."
> It's a "5 band quad (20-10M) using tapered spacing (I've added 6M with a
new
> twist--why not)."  However it uses "individual DE feed" with a remote coax
> switch on the tower like Antenna Mart does--the DE's are NOT all tied
> together which totally destroys the potential pattern "beyond repair" (in
> Eznec and on the air) with all this "Stray and Major RF" used in the wrong
> technical and financial way in business.  Some manufacturers actually sell
> this "Junk Stray RF Beam" to unsuspecting hams without a whimper even when
> told about it.  I seldom had to rotate the beam on CQ's even though a DX
> station would call me on the side or back.  Why hasn't any of the "Stray
RF
> ACLU Experts" on TT got concerned over a real "Major Case of Stray
> RF--Industrial Strength??
>            Paul Harvey said:
>         "We live in a Junk Society.  We have Junk Cars, Junk Houses, Junk
> Books, Junk Toys, Junk Movies, Junk TV's, Junk TV Programs, Junk
Furniture,
> Junk Food and one city even had Junk People--they had more Suicides than
> Homicides."  We even have Junk Sex--it's less Emotional Satisfying and
Junk
> Antennas, Junk RF, Junk Radios, Junk Other Ham Equipment--on and on.  They
> even sell you Warranty Insurance to help pay for the eventual repair!!  I
> have returned the last 14 items I have purchased including 3 ham rigs with
> major and expensive problems, cameras, an intermittent telephone, lenses,
> guns with dangerous design flaws, an $800 Cell phone 6 years ago, a
> Fax/Telephone combo on and on--junk junk junk.  Some Junk Designs hang on
for
> years like the Gamma match.  It's taken me a while to wake up but the only
> way to eliminate this junk problem and wasted money is--don't buy
anything.
> I'll keep the 3-6M Raibeams as they are built and work great--better than
I
> had expected.  A tight wad friend of mine who never buys anything brings
this
> to my attention all the time like for over 45 years.  I had to admit to
him
> he's been right all this time.  He's got over a "million trouble free
bucks
> in stocks and bonds I don't" and smiles a lot also.
>
> Tom Peters used to give talks on "Making Life Time Customers" and I have
his
> and other books on it.  It's become almost a "Forgotten Concept."  There
is a
> concept frequently used now by many businesses where, if you get a
"lemon,"
> you're told "you will eat it."  That's a very tough and sickening thing
for a
> retiree, a kid or anyone to hear with their hard earned money invested.
You
> couldn't get away with that years ago and still can't from some buyers.
I'm
> told "they often still come back" so they feel justified in doing it and
the
> "lemon product" is a headache for them also.  I can show many proven
> statistics that is "still bad very business."  It still makes "Stray RF
> Customers" in the Ham World.  Walmart like no other Merchant has made
> millions and millions forcing (ruthlessly some claim) suppliers to supply
> good products at a low price.  Mass sales at low profit margins has made
the
> "Biggest Fortunes" like for Walmart.  Perhaps the Ham Dealers should do
the
> same.  I think pressure should be put on the Junk Manufacturers of items
for
> resale or direct sale.  Don't buy them!  Don't throw your money away.
>
> KC6T had a great article in QST where he tuned up a 5 band quad and used
> series fixed and selected capacitors for the final reflector length.  His
> buddy did the same with a series inductor with taps.  I guess the
reasoning
> was--it was easier to make a change in the reflector bottom wire during
the
> initial tune up from the roof than it was to change the entire wire
length?
> Regardless both got it tuned up and it still worked great after the move
from
> near the roof (house wiring, eve troughs and all that) to the top of the
> tower-for both.  How could that be??  It happens when you learn that there
> are fewer design restrictions than you have been led to believe by the
"False
> RF Prophets."  In this design the reflector was slightly larger for the
> series Xc and slightly smaller with the series XL than normal when
properly
> tuned.  This design actually used the same physical spacing on all bands
with
> good patterns although I will compare it to tapered spacing.
>
> About 40 years ago Sant G2PU found that the usual open wire shorted stub
used
> for convenience to tune reflectors, "canted the free space H Plain Pattern
> off center line" (either up or down I don't remember).  Reflection Factor
> plotting with the free space pattern when tipped up or down will reduce
the
> potential reflection 6 dB gain main lobe like over what I call "Liquid
Copper"
> --Salt Water.  Your antenna creates the "text book nulls" in the beams
> vertical pattern only over perfect ground and salt water is as close to it
> you can get.  Normal ground loss fills in the nulls bit more and for
vertical
> polarization, the even higher ground reflection losses fill in the nulls
and
> reduce the gain even more.  The higher the frequency the worse it is for
both
> polarization's for the "Highly Abused and Misunderstood Null--It Gets No
> Respect."  However, Nulls or Dips in the pattern will put up a pretty good
> fight to survive in the E-Plane I've found and have some great
configurations
> of beam patterns for verification.  The reason all those great nulls are
> shown in text books is conditions are ideal on paper.  There is no RF
Spill
> Over on paper--it's non conductive.  Would you believe that if technical
> books were printed on aluminum foil, lift off of vertical patterns and
> fill-in of nulls would be shown?
>
> G2PU discovered the canting of the free space pattern when he fed his 20M
> quad vertically polarized with the single reflector stub now on the side.
> His pattern on vertically polarized sources "was not head on" and easy to
see
> on the S-Meter.  So he said "enough of this design compromise total
nonsense"
> and took out the stub and lengthened the reflector until he got the same
> pattern--head on.  Then he rotated the feedpoint 90 degree back for
> horizontal polarization with no tipping of the free space pattern.  You
can
> have equal length stubs on each side for balanced but why have stubs at
all?
> They just flop around in the wind.  After tune up they have served their
> useful purpose.  Add their length to the reflector.
>
> How much difference a single stub actually makes on typical contacts would
be
> hard to tell for sure with other than 2 Quads side by side, one with and
one
> without the reflector stub.  Eznec will tell the difference also at least
at
> the RF Starting Blocks.  I'm sure it made at least an S-Unit or 2
> psychological difference to listen to him tell about it although he always
> had a great signal on AM with a 2 element quad on 20M.  I haven't heard
him
> lately although he's still in QRZ.  Too many design and performance
> compromises are often used for convenience or to save money.  Too few
design
> for "Maximum RF Clout" like Raibeam, Antenna Mart and M2.
>
> Now even with no tuning stubs, no metal guys and individual feed of quad
> DE's, it would still appear listening to all the "TT Stray RF ACLU
Experts"
> it would be totally impossible to get a 3, 5 or 6 band quad tuned up on
ALL
> BANDS and have good patterns with good nulls.  It would seem there are
just
> too many stray RF generators and are too close in the wrong place.  Are
you
> sitting down--NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!  Don't you "Guys"
> ever get tired of being wrong?  All 5 bands (even 6) using .125 WL spacing
> tuned up with great patterns and nulls with tapered and fixed spacings.
> There were a couple "Unexpected Bonus."  The gains increased slightly and
> even the F/B in some nulls over what was possible from a monobander.  It
> never got worse.  I reported this on TT and all the poo poers came out of
the
> computers with their ho ho ho's.  Then Cebik bless his soul, verified what
I
> had found as he had found it also.  The Poo Pooers were "strangely
silent."
> It was then he told me of KC6T who found good patterns on each of the 5
> bands.  He uses the same physical spacing in his design.  This is what is
> actually found when someone actually spends some time "tuning up beams"
> instead of their "TT Shooting Gallery Opinions."
>
> The H planes of yagi's and quads are always larger than the E plane in
every
> pattern I've ever seen.  I have never ever seen it the same beam width
except
> in a Bi Square "totally unexpected bonus"quad.  They get real close in 7
and
> 8 element yagi's.  Another was this.  The 6M 2 element quad inside the 5
> other bands with symmetric loops--had the "Same Beamwidths."  Absolutely
> Incredible!  This is "Pattern Black Magic."  There was just too damn much
> Stray RF.  We just have to pass a "TT Anti-Beneficial Stray RF Law."  So
Be
> it!  It's not "Technically RF Correct."  It's totally out of control in a
> beneficial manner.  We can't have that!  Someone may have a signal edge.
In
> "RF Socialism" everyone has to be the same.
>
> How could near resonant elements of a 5 or 6 band quad on each side of 3
or 4
> operating frequencies be so immune to the beams pattern?  It's violating
too
> many "TT Opinion, Appliance & Band Aid Operator Laws."  Embarrassing isn't
> it?  Elevated Egos will never be the same.
>
> When all the 5 band quad DE's are tied together, high levels of RF are
> clearly seen on other off band-elements in Eznec and it does indeed affect
> the patterns.  It's so bad the 10M free space pattern even tilts down at
> about 35 degrees--very grim!  That's "Major Directed RF" doing this, not
"TT
> Stray RF."
>
> There are many other examples I've seen that just aren't doing hardly
> anything but then there are those that do like a towers affect on a
> vertically polarized beam.  I know all the major ones and have battled
them
> for years.  They are clearly seen in a pattern recorder.  I just found a
new
> one just spinning the beam that has been unrecognized even with Eznec now
and
> will report on it.  Under "perfect conditions" I felt I had a vertically
> polarized H plane pattern upset with stacked beams with certain spacings.
RF
> got on the separating boom of the wrong polarization.  I found the reason,
a
> simple solution and solved the problem.
>
> With individual DE feed of 5 or 6 band quads, some RF levels are actually
> shown on off-elements in Eznec and recorded in the Current Charts.  Yet
great
> patterns result which absolutely defy TT common misguided opinions.
>
> I also excited the higher and lower frequency DE than Fo and great
patterns
> still were maintained--some even better.  I was surprised myself but I dig
> into areas that few would think productive all the time.  It blew up the
> theory of resonant DE's were needed other than for a resistive feedpoint.
I
> had thought of feeding the quad with open wire line and this off band DE
> would be reactive one way or the other depending which one was used.  I
felt
> the Match Box could handle this from the Z's I saw and similar examples.
> That's an interesting concept of feeding the off band DE and getting a
great
> pattern.  More on this later.
>
> It's my plan to add a "new performance wrinkle" to an all band 2 element
quad
> by adding variable Xc's in each reflector all ganged together to a selsyn
on
> the mast so I can tune for max F/B or Gain anywhere in any band on all
bands.
>  I'll determine the free space pattern cant if any of the H Plain in Eznec
> and tilt the boom accordingly to compensate.  There are little tricks away
> and around some problems and in some cases certain levels of "The Dreaded
> Stray RF Isn't All That Bad" even right in the bedroom under the sheets so
to
> speak.  If you learn how RF really flows when and where, what different
> levels do, you can learn how to talk to RF figuratively speaking--it will
> behave.
>
> I'll feed this quad with 100 ohm balanced coax into a match box in the
shack
> which will assure max RF into the coax input and anywhere in the band with
> whatever the configuration is used.  That could be considered a very
useful
> feature--in particular in a contest and no beam has it yet.  Although guy
> wires are out of the main plane, often non resonant, of the wrong
> polarization, spacing and sometimes in a pattern null, I'll run some guy
wire
> stray RF tests in the pattern and SWR curve when I rotate it just to ease
my
> and other's curiosity in case they ask--or demand.  I leave no RF Stones
and
> RF Burns unturned.  A lot of all this was determined, observed and made
use
> of by many even long before Eznec so little of this is really new info.
>
> While I'm on a roll here I really like 1/2 wave verticals whenever
possible
> in particular on 40M and on up for many reasons.  I've had a couple of
> articles on these 1/2 waves in CQ some 35 years ago.  All these radial
> problems go away although a screen around the base when close to the
ground
> has been known to help--even at WWVH.  If the base is high enough the
ground
> screen could probably be done away with.  I'll try it with and without.  I
> use 1/2 waves with an another unusual but simple design now on top of
> monobanders for "listening antennas" as my F/B patterns are so good on
some
> beams (even with stray RF guys) I'd miss a lot of stations off the back
and
> side without the 1/2 wave vertical to switch to.  I can run them together
> with different phasings.  It often does great just by itself.  I've used
1/4
> wave verticals over the beams DE also as the radials.  Why this hasn't
caught
> on I'll never know.
>
> I have a 6M 1/2 wave on the roof now for monitoring.  The 6M Raibeam 5
> element "Butt Kicker" I have 30' higher has such a good F/B/Side (even
with
> 2-6M beams below it), I needed the 1/2 wave vertical  for monitoring.
When
> an opening occurs on 6M you don't want to miss it from any direction and
it
> can be weak.  NOTE! If certain of my or the 5 element Raibeams unusual
> F/B/Side ratio's wasn't as good as it is, I wouldn't need the 1/2 wave
> monitoring vertical.  Apparently many have never had a beam with
exceptional
> F/B/Side!!  What have you been doing all these years in advancing the
state
> of the art?  Show me some examples.  I have some that I haven't even
> mentioned yet.
>
> There is a "reverse concept" I have observed.  I've told of the 10M 3
element
> I have tuned for "absolute max gain of 10.2 dBi."  No manufacturer has
ever
> tuned a beam that way.  It has 8 dB F/B, narrow bandwidth and 6 ohms in
the
> center of the DE.  The director is actually longer than the DE.  I feed it
in
> a sneaky way at a 50 ohm feedpoint with "Absolutely No RF Spill Over."
The
> coax shield and center of the DE attached to the boom is "RF Stone Cold."
> Would you believe that a "RF Frost" appears there after a long
transmission.
> Another phenomena occurs with 8 dB F/B I didn't expect.  After a
transmission
> running legal power the back lobe clears the frequency so well it leaves a
> "Signal Black Hole" for the same length of time before it fills in.
That's
> "Infinite F/B."  In 3 years using the beam I don't remember having to
repeat
> anything.  Contesters find this useful and have been known to have another
> final on a beam pointing the other way leaving the impression or stating
they
> have poor F/B.  Now you know.  With a beam where max F/B and/or Gain can
be
> selected, one could also transmit with max gain and listen with max F/B.
> That's a great idea.
>
> This beam has another great advantage.  With poor F/B you don't have to
worry
> about Stray RF filling in the nulls--it might create one--heaven forbid.
It
> could really silence the "Stray RF ALCU Birds" forever!
>
> Antenna design is very interesting if you learn how to massage the RF and
put
> it to work for you.  Few know the joy of a "fast rotator and a great beam
> pattern.  When you call them--they stay called."  And I now have 3 ways to
> cure and extend the narrow band width of this or any beam even more.
>
> I had a 5 element 6M yagi on a 16' boom 10' below this 10M beam and when
> installed it didn't change the SWR a bit of either one.  The vertical
> patterns of each and the very tight max gain coupling between the 10M
> elements apparently really isolated it from the 6M beam.  Both worked
great.
>
> I worked KE6IHA on 6M using a Cush Craft Ringo vertical that is really an
> "Extended Double Zepp" of 3 dB gain design like their 2M Ringo.  Running
700W
> he has worked a lot of DX on 6M using it much to my surprise.  That's one
of
> the few reports I've had of this although I know very well what 1/2 waves
> will do on all bands--except 6M.  This caught my immediate attention.
I've
> only heard JA's for DX 2 years ago on 6M once although they were coming
into
> Seattle last week and I missed them.  My 1/2 wave will be mounted on top
of
> the 5 element Raibeam shortly.  I want to see how well it will work up
there
> at any distance on 6M.  I will then make my version of the 6M Ringo.  The
> Ringo is actually a very poor design.  The ring at the base is really the
> inductor of a tank circuit to match a Hi-Z at the end of the antenna and
> tapped at the 50 ohm point.  But it has the highest RF Spill Over down the
> mast of any vertical in Ham radio.  The higher you mount it the worse it
> works as more of the lift-off of the vertical pattern occurs.  The mast or
> tower is heavily excited like a long wire and dominates.  When the 2M AEA
> Isopole came out with the double radial skirt to kill RF Spill Over once
and
> for all, Ringo added radials below the Ring Tank Circuit.  Unfortunately
they
> didn't understand exactly what they were doing and trying to copy it,
added
> radials 1/8 WL lower and not 1/4 WL lower at the maximum high voltage and
> Hi-Z area where they are the most effective as "RF Spill Over Killers."
They
> were close but "No Cigars."  When I told them "they missed by 1/8 wave,"
> their eyes rolled.  I don't think they understood what I said as they
didn't
> change it.
>
> A local Marine Antenna Manufacturer has a similar "pattern lift off
problem"
> with a the 156 MHz vertical and don't know why.  These pattern lift off
> problems created by "Major Stray RF" are still virtually "Best Kept
Secrets."
>  The previous owners had stolen an antenna design from me and it had RF
Spill
> Over they didn't know how to stop and had then had the guts to ask me how!
I
> will offer a solution to the new owners for a respectable fee.  I applied
the
> fix to one of their type antennas that can't be seen on the outside, will
> demonstrate and then we will negotiate.  I hope I get out of there alive
and
> with some folding stuff.
>
> The Ringo, the 2 Marine verticals and several others including some Ham
> verticals on the market are really nothing more than:
>            "50 ohm matching devices for the coax to the mast."
>
>         "So it can be seen that 1:1 SWR is not the full picture in
>              evaluating an antenna with or without Stray RF but
>                                        it's a good place to start."
>
>  It's like kissing on the hand--you have got to start some where!
>
> The frequently neglected, hard to measure and evasive vertical pattern is
> very important.  The key to performance is seen mostly in the free space
> vertical pattern--is it at 0 degrees or on the horizon?  Learn how to
> evaluate and control it once mounted on a tower.  Dominate signals can be
the
> result.  You may be accused of running big power.  I know the feeling.
> Record the weak DX station and play it back or point out "you hear the
weak
> ones better than they do or not at all."  Sometimes they will call you
from
> across town (and across the country) to see if you are talking to
yourself.
> They "Absolutely Fry in Their Frustrations" hearing on the phone what they
> don't hear.  Bill Wall has had that happen using his quads.  That's a big
> clue you have got an unusual beam.  Unfortunately few will ask how it is
> done?  They will ask about the receiver and seldom about the antenna?
>
> Another clue of Stray RF and beams too close to each other is RF in the
> Shack.  If Compression is used on SSB Stray RF there can easily get into
the
> audio in some rigs.  This usually happens when no balun is used.
>
>     Summation: All Stray RF isn't all that bad as some have claimed.  If
it
> was the 6 band 2 element quad wouldn't be possible.  Proper design does
> reduce it as much as possible.
>
> I've covered most of bases in this post to suppress most of the nit
pickers.
> I did add something a sharp nit picker could jump on.  Let's see if any of
> them catch it?  I put something in for everybody.  K7GCO
>
>
>
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> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
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>
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>



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From rhodes@evertek.net  Sun Jun 24 23:38:37 2001
From: rhodes@evertek.net (Jim Rhodes)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 17:38:37 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tilt antenna questions
In-Reply-To: <104.52a1814.2867831d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010624172321.023aecd0@pop3.evertek.net>

How about a simple sturdy bracket that would bolt to the standard mast 
adapter plate and have a 1-5/8" shaft or tube fastened very securely 
parallel to the boom spaced just far enough away from the boom to clear the 
rotator. This certainly would be no place for hose clamps, but a sturdy 
bracket designed to use good u-bolts to hold a tube or even using a solid 
round stock & machining a flat spot on each end and bolts through the ends. 
. Another advantage to this method would be that it would leave the antenna 
itself in stock condition. The bad point would be that it would offset the 
boom from the center of rotation and increase wind torque


At 01:53 PM 6/24/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Howdy, TowerTalkians --
>
>     Here's a question that has never been asked on TowerTalk before! They're
>pretty rare but nonetheless pop up occasionally.
>
>     What I need to do is to tilt a KT34A from its normal horizontally
>polarized position to a vertical position. The antenna will be mounted on a
>UST crank-up and the antenna needs to be vertical when the tower is down so
>the antenna can be "stored" in a vertical position when it's not being used.
>The problem is due to the fact that the antenna hangs over the neighbor's
>property and the neighbor has asked that it not be over his property when
>it's not being used.
>
>     Okay. So what I've got is a moderately small triband antenna with a 3"
>boom. I want to use the Yaesu G-550 elevation rotator which has a boom
>capacity of 1-5/8" (1.625"). The options as I see them are: 1) convert the 3"
>boom to a 1-5/8" one or 2) put some sort of smaller boom splice in the KT34A
>so that the part of the antenna at the elevation rotator will fit thru it.
>
>     Option 1 means that the 3" KLM insulated Lexan element brackets will
>either have to be scrapped or adapted to the smaller boomsize. Any ideas how
>to do either one?
>
>     Option 2 means some 'cut-and-hack' work on the boom plus some machine
>shop fabrication but lets me use the rest of the existing boom and hardware.
>
>     Wadda ya think? Can you think of any other options? All input 
> appreciated.
>
>Cheers & tnx,    Steve    K7LXC
>Tower Tech
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
>HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
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Jim Rhodes K0XU
jim@rhodesend.net


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From jimsmith@home.com  Mon Jun 25 09:55:48 2001
From: jimsmith@home.com (Jim Smith)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 01:55:48 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] New Chinese yagis
References: <12d.6df951.2865ec32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B36FC94.7C600D00@home.com>

Watch out.  BA4ED.com is one of those irritating web sites which
won't let you out when you hit the "back" button and you have to
shut down Netscape or invoke the history list to get out.  Not a
site I would ever want to return to.  Kind of like someone
grabbing your arm when you go into a store and refusing to let go.

73 de Jim Smith	VE7FO

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From n4kg@juno.com  Mon Jun 25 13:15:41 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 06:15:41 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tilt antenna questions
Message-ID: <20010625.061627.-95983.0.N4KG@juno.com>

Change antennas !

A 2L Quad has 1/3 the boom length and 1/2 the width of 
the KT34XA.    No tilt needed.

Tom  N4KG

On Sun, 24 Jun 2001 13:53:33 EDT K7LXC@aol.com writes:
> Howdy, TowerTalkians --
> 
>     Here's a question that has never been asked on TowerTalk before! 
> They're  pretty rare but nonetheless pop up occasionally.
> 
>     What I need to do is to tilt a KT34A from its normal 
> horizontally 
> polarized position to a vertical position. The antenna will be 
> mounted on a 
> UST crank-up and the antenna needs to be vertical when the tower is 
> down so 
> the antenna can be "stored" in a vertical position when it's not 
> being used. 
> The problem is due to the fact that the antenna hangs over the 
> neighbor's 
> property and the neighbor has asked that it not be over his property 
> when 
> it's not being used. 
> 
>     Okay. So what I've got is a moderately small triband antenna 
> with a 3" 
> boom. I want to use the Yaesu G-550 elevation rotator which has a 
> boom 
> capacity of 1-5/8" (1.625"). The options as I see them are: 1) 
> convert the 3" 
> boom to a 1-5/8" one or 2) put some sort of smaller boom splice in 
> the KT34A 
> so that the part of the antenna at the elevation rotator will fit 
> thru it.
> 
>     Option 1 means that the 3" KLM insulated Lexan element brackets 
> will 
> either have to be scrapped or adapted to the smaller boomsize. Any 
> ideas how 
> to do either one?
> 
>     Option 2 means some 'cut-and-hack' work on the boom plus some 
> machine 
> shop fabrication but lets me use the rest of the existing boom and 
> hardware. 
> 
>     Wadda ya think? Can you think of any other options? All input 
> appreciated.
> 
> Cheers & tnx,    Steve    K7LXC
> Tower Tech 

________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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From ka4inm@qsl.net  Mon Jun 25 15:18:45 2001
From: ka4inm@qsl.net (Ron KA4INM Youvan)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:18:45 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] New Chinese yagis
References: <12d.6df951.2865ec32@aol.com> <3B36FC94.7C600D00@home.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c0fd81$c0555440$b02e2526@wtog105>

Someone said:

> Watch out.  BA4ED.com is one of those irritating web sites which
> won't let you out when you hit the "back" button and you have to
> shut down Netscape or invoke the history list to get out.  Not a
> site I would ever want to return to.

  Outlook Express does not behave this way.
If you follow a link on this site, a new window is
opened by the code from the site, this is common,
by closing the new window (which has no history)
{or ALT+TAB *} you will be back at the original site page.
This can be thought of as `another way to do
things' if you wish.
If you click on the "BA4ED.com" TAB at the bottom
of a `windows' screen you will move back, * but this
keeps an additional window open.  In any case you are not trapped.

         73 (= Best Regards) de: (= this is) Ron ka4inm@qsl.net
       Please visit my HAM web site at: http://www.qsl.net/ka4inm




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From MWapner@Vetronix.com  Mon Jun 25 21:05:57 2001
From: MWapner@Vetronix.com (Mike Wapner)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:05:57 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Emotator Model 1500FS - Information Requested
Message-ID: <11CA8AEBA4D7D0119FFF00805F29965D020798B3@EXCHANGE_NT1>

Does anyone have any info on the subject rotator?  I have located two
representatives of Emotator, Andrews Communication in Australia and
Boger-Funk in Germany.  I couldn't find anything in USA.  Also contacted
Emotator directly in Japan.  Total information received is that the 1500FS
was the predecessor to the current model 1800FXX.  I have the data sheet on
the 1800FXX, but nothing on the 1500FS.  Any experience with these products
or associated information would be appreciated.  Thanks, Mike-K6QD.

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From drsiddall@verner.com  Mon Jun 25 21:19:33 2001
From: drsiddall@verner.com (David Siddall)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:19:33 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Emotator Model 1500FS - Information Requested
Message-ID: <D13D064657CDD411BBF500508BAF274F53A90B@DCEXCHG1>

The U.S. distributor was EEB (Electronic Equipment Bank) in Vienna,
Virginia; and they also operated under a second name, both advertised
nationally in QST etc.   They are out of the ham business (long story), but
may still distribute radio products commercially (such as Rohn towers), so
you might try locating a current address for them.  They had a fact sheet on
all the emotator models back ten years ago, someone may still have in their
files, or a review may exist in one of the magazines such as QST or CQ.
Dave K3ZJ

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Wapner [mailto:MWapner@Vetronix.com]
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 4:06 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Emotator Model 1500FS - Information Requested


Does anyone have any info on the subject rotator?  I have located two
representatives of Emotator, Andrews Communication in Australia and
Boger-Funk in Germany.  I couldn't find anything in USA.  Also contacted
Emotator directly in Japan.  Total information received is that the 1500FS
was the predecessor to the current model 1800FXX.  I have the data sheet on
the 1800FXX, but nothing on the 1500FS.  Any experience with these products
or associated information would be appreciated.  Thanks, Mike-K6QD.

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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Mon Jun 25 23:39:10 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:39:10 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Trylon Update #3
Message-ID: <000301c0fdc7$aa79c480$aab6ffd1@spelunk.sueno>

TT:

     Bottom section bolted together and set on top of cap (and missing
pieces of rebar cage installed), hole was inspected this morning (and
passed),  Georgia buggie and vibrator will be delivered on Wednesday AM, the
whole nine yards of concrete Wed PM.  (Yeah, the hole is a little bigger
than needed and the cap is ten inches above grade on the downhill side of
the form.)

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
P.S.  My wife and I were watching "Castaway" on video last evening.  At the
part where Tom Hanks struggles to launch his makeshift raft into the water,
we looked at each other and I said, "That reminds me of me this afternoon
trying to get the tower into the hole."  Of course, I didn't look as starved
as he did.


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From jstai@home.com  Tue Jun 26 00:26:32 2001
From: jstai@home.com (Jeff Stai WK6I)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:26:32 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tilt antenna questions
In-Reply-To: <104.52a1814.2867831d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010625161618.09d77a30@mail>


hi Steve - I might be missing the spirit of the thing... but since it is
prudent to be out at the tower when cranking up or down, why not forget the
elevation rotator and use a simple pivot point between the mast and boom?
Something like the F12 mounting plate with the single bolt in it, only
sturdier (if necessary). Attach ropes to the boom ends. When it is up, tie
off the ropes to hold the antenna horizontal. When down, tie it vertical.
Or better yet - if you can limit the pivot to 90 degree travel you only
need one rope which would be easier to manage during the transition. (Make
sure the boom end opposite the rope end is a little heavier ;-)

I hesitate to add that the use of pulleys would also make it easier to
manage the rope or ropes - for example, a pulley at the rotator could allow you to
angle the rope from the boom end to the pulley and then route the rope straight
down the tower.

I hope I have explained this clearly - I can forward you a quick sketch of
what I am thinking if you like.

73 and hope this helps - jeff wk6i

At 10:53 AM 6/24/01, K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
>Howdy, TowerTalkians --
>
>    Here's a question that has never been asked on TowerTalk before! They're 
>pretty rare but nonetheless pop up occasionally.
>
>    What I need to do is to tilt a KT34A from its normal horizontally 
>polarized position to a vertical position. The antenna will be mounted on a 
>UST crank-up and the antenna needs to be vertical when the tower is down so 
>the antenna can be "stored" in a vertical position when it's not being used. 
>The problem is due to the fact that the antenna hangs over the neighbor's 
>property and the neighbor has asked that it not be over his property when 
>it's not being used. 
>
>    Okay. So what I've got is a moderately small triband antenna with a 3" 
>boom. I want to use the Yaesu G-550 elevation rotator which has a boom 
>capacity of 1-5/8" (1.625"). The options as I see them are: 1) convert the 3" 
>boom to a 1-5/8" one or 2) put some sort of smaller boom splice in the KT34A 
>so that the part of the antenna at the elevation rotator will fit thru it.
>
>    Option 1 means that the 3" KLM insulated Lexan element brackets will 
>either have to be scrapped or adapted to the smaller boomsize. Any ideas how 
>to do either one?
>
>    Option 2 means some 'cut-and-hack' work on the boom plus some machine 
>shop fabrication but lets me use the rest of the existing boom and hardware. 
>
>    Wadda ya think? Can you think of any other options? All input appreciated.
>
>Cheers & tnx,    Steve    K7LXC
>Tower Tech 
>
>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
>-----
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>Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com

jeff stai
radio stuff:   WK6I in DM13
rocket stuff:  NAR #21059 TRA #3356 Level 2 Cert.
email:         jstai@home.com or wk6i@arrl.net
ROC web page:  http://www.rocstock.org/
LDRS web page: http://www.ldrs20.org/


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From jimsmith@home.com  Tue Jun 26 05:13:20 2001
From: jimsmith@home.com (Jim Smith)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:13:20 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] New Chinese yagis
References: <12d.6df951.2865ec32@aol.com> <3B36FC94.7C600D00@home.com> <000f01c0fd81$c0555440$b02e2526@wtog105>
Message-ID: <3B380BE0.B73CC50D@home.com>

Hi Ron,
Well, this really isn't a TT topic so I'll reply to you
personally.  However, it seems I have badmouthed BA4ED.com
unfairly, so I apologize for that.

73 de Jim Smith	VE7FO

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From w9re@worldnet.att.net  Tue Jun 26 07:25:27 2001
From: w9re@worldnet.att.net (Mike Wetzel)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:25:27 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cutting Large Holes in Aluminum
Message-ID: <NCBBIPEKMKEIENBFHFHJOEHGECAA.w9re@worldnet.att.net>

I have aluminum rectangular blocks (4"x4"x1") that I need to cut a 3"
diameter hole in (using them instead of muffler clamps).  I tried a bi-metal
hole saw and also a circle cutter with not much success since I need to make
about blocks altogether.  I have a metal lathe that I can bore the finish
diameter on but I would like to get a big chunk of the material out of the
way (to save some time).  I have also thought of using a smaller drill bit
(1/2") and drilling a series of holes around the diameter and may do this
but there seems like there has to be a better (less labor intensive) way.

Thanks

Mike W9RE


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From billwall@bellsouth.net  Tue Jun 26 09:45:17 2001
From: billwall@bellsouth.net (bill wall)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 04:45:17 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cutting Large Holes in Aluminum
References: <NCBBIPEKMKEIENBFHFHJOEHGECAA.w9re@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <000701c0fe1c$53fb6e60$5b664ed8@billwall>

Hi Mike;
Find a machine shop with a Bridgeport type milling machine. Most have a
boring bar attachment. To save money bolt the two bars together and pilot
drill your hole as large as you can. This will produce a perfect hole as
large as you need. If you still live in 9 land there should be plenty of
small shops in 9 and I am sure in 8 land.
                                     Bill  KC4UZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Wetzel" <w9re@worldnet.att.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 2:25 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cutting Large Holes in Aluminum


> I have aluminum rectangular blocks (4"x4"x1") that I need to cut a 3"
> diameter hole in (using them instead of muffler clamps).  I tried a
bi-metal
> hole saw and also a circle cutter with not much success since I need to
make
> about blocks altogether.  I have a metal lathe that I can bore the finish
> diameter on but I would like to get a big chunk of the material out of the
> way (to save some time).  I have also thought of using a smaller drill bit
> (1/2") and drilling a series of holes around the diameter and may do this
> but there seems like there has to be a better (less labor intensive) way.
>
> Thanks
>
> Mike W9RE
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>



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From kb7ww@uswest.net  Tue Jun 26 13:39:11 2001
From: kb7ww@uswest.net (KB7WW Art Moe)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 05:39:11 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cutting Large Holes in Aluminum
References: <NCBBIPEKMKEIENBFHFHJOEHGECAA.w9re@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <3B38826F.8A2382E8@uswest.net>

Mike,

You don't say what size your lathe is, so I will take a stab at it.  

Guessing you have a 10 inch I would start by putting on the 4 jaw chuck,
centering the work then drill the largest hole that you have a bit for.
Then using the largest boring bar you have start in boring. Depending
on how rigid your machine and boring bare you should be able to take 
out .100 or more, on our 18 inch at work I have bored aluminum at .500
per pass with large inserted boring bar. Watch your feeds and speeds
don't turn to slow I would start at about 250 SFM (not rpm) at .005 feed
and go from there. If your set up is rigid enough go to 300 350 SFM and
up the feed rate.  Use your power feed to keep an even load on the cut.


Another thing you could try is taking the cutting tool out of your fly
cutter and and mounting it on your tool post cut half way then turn
the part around and finish. Then you could bore to finish size.

Art
KB7WW




Mike Wetzel wrote:
> 
> I have aluminum rectangular blocks (4"x4"x1") that I need to cut a 3"
> diameter hole in (using them instead of muffler clamps).  I tried a bi-metal
> hole saw and also a circle cutter with not much success since I need to make
> about blocks altogether.  I have a metal lathe that I can bore the finish
> diameter on but I would like to get a big chunk of the material out of the
> way (to save some time).  I have also thought of using a smaller drill bit
> (1/2") and drilling a series of holes around the diameter and may do this
> but there seems like there has to be a better (less labor intensive) way.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Mike W9RE
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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From n9iww2@verizon.net  Tue Jun 26 16:05:36 2001
From: n9iww2@verizon.net (Kevin Adam, Webz By design)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:05:36 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cutting Large Holes in Aluminum
In-Reply-To: <NCBBIPEKMKEIENBFHFHJOEHGECAA.w9re@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <000e01c0fe51$759b9330$13a60304@n9iww>

You Got a Lathe and you haven't bored it out yet via drill bit and
boring bar 
That’s the way to go bore large hole in so you can start the boring bar
then just bore it out.



N9IWW
Kevin Adam
1239 W. Till Rd.
Fort Wayne IN. 46825
219-490-7312
http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
n9iww@mail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mike Wetzel
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 1:25 AM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cutting Large Holes in Aluminum

I have aluminum rectangular blocks (4"x4"x1") that I need to cut a 3"
diameter hole in (using them instead of muffler clamps).  I tried a
bi-metal
hole saw and also a circle cutter with not much success since I need to
make
about blocks altogether.  I have a metal lathe that I can bore the
finish
diameter on but I would like to get a big chunk of the material out of
the
way (to save some time).  I have also thought of using a smaller drill
bit
(1/2") and drilling a series of holes around the diameter and may do
this
but there seems like there has to be a better (less labor intensive)
way.

Thanks

Mike W9RE


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to
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From mfarrer@tality.com  Tue Jun 26 16:21:35 2001
From: mfarrer@tality.com (Mel Farrer)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:21:35 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Big vertical is down, some comments
Message-ID: <97A30A2BBA23D411842900D0B726125D6164C1@srvex03-sanjose.Cadence.COM>

I have lowered the big vertical.  I have a few shots of it coming down.  It
can be viewed at <http://www.geocities.com/lm2000us/chinagulch.html>
Look at the bottom of the links for the 3850 group.  

Here is a example of taking down a large tower with a gin pole.  

A couple of observations after 15+ years of service.  I used "X" aircraft
cable on the sides for stiffening.  While the cable survived well in general
terms, several of the X points where the cables get close together, showed
signs of wear due to contact during high winds.  I suspect it would have
been better to have a fixed spacer or to tie them together.  The "NOLOX" I
used to coat the joining of the aluminum tubing worked great even after 15+
years.  The parts pulled apart with only initial resistance.  The 1/4"
dacron rope that I used for insurance during storms showed no signs of
aging.  The three of them were used as the strong back cable that goes from
the 88 foot level to the gin pole in the picture.  The dacron did have
evidence of moss growing on it?

It is still for sale.  


Mel Farrer
Director of Engineering
Tality Corporation
555 River Oaks Parkway
San Jose, CA  95134
408 456-8254
408 944-8000 FAX
mfarrer@tality.com


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From asfco@nycap.rr.com  Tue Jun 26 17:28:31 2001
From: asfco@nycap.rr.com (asfco)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:28:31 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Who Had EZ way w/no post F/S ???
Message-ID: <3B38B82F.D1BA5EBE@nycap.rr.com>

By mistake I deleted the  message that someone here on the list sent
direct to me a couple weeks ago.
It Had to do With an EZ Way tower that someone had without a ground
post...
Would you kindly get in touch with me again off list.. Thanks
73
de W2GB



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From K7LXC@aol.com  Tue Jun 26 19:43:48 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:43:48 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] New Book - Urban Antennas - Volume 1
Message-ID: <93.c581a4e.286a31e4@aol.com>

Howdy, TowerTalkians --

    Here's another book you might want to add to your tower and antenna 
library.

Cheers,     Steve   K7LXC
Tower Tech 
Champion Radio Products

**** ANNOUNCEMENT ****

NEW BOOK RELEASE FROM RUSSIA!
Urban Antennas - Volume 1

As many of you may know, Igor Grigorov, RK3ZK is one of the most
published authors in Russia on the subject of amateur radio and
antennas with his eight books and over 190 articles published in
the Russian language over the past 20 years of his activities in
this technical field.

We are very pleased to bring this fresh, new masterpiece of
amateur radio literature to you direct from Russia! Now, for the
first time, we are now able to learn how the problems of operating
from close or restricted environments are solved in that part of
the world. In this book, Igor presents his own actual tried and
true methods of operating within urban conditions with
surroundings of tall buildings without notice from his neighbors.

Through the joints efforts, conducted by antenneX of the author
and a translator in Russia, several technical editors in the USA,
this publication has been made possible. antenneX is proud to
bring this one of a kind publication to the English-speaking world

We know this book is not in your library, but it should be! The
book is available in softcover and the popular eBOOK PDF versions.
For more info about this exciting new publication, goto:
http://www.antennex.com/Sshack/urban/urban.htm

Also, listen to a "Hello from Igor" in streaming audio as Igor
introduces his new book at:
http://www.antennex.com/Sshack/urban/intro.htm

And, if you haven't been to our BookShelf in a while, be sure to
check out the many other books available:
http://www.antennex.com/Sshack/books.htm

Hope to see you soon and thanks for your time!

Best reGARDS,

Jack L. Stone, Publisher
antenneX Online Magazine
http://www.antennex.com
jack@antennex.com

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From n2mg@contesting.com  Tue Jun 26 21:08:37 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 26 Jun 2001 13:08:37 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Relay source wanted
Message-ID: <20010626200837.1464.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>

I'm looking for 12V 10A relays for an antenna switching project.  I could use DPDT, 3PDT or 4PDT, depending.  I need approx 20-30 of them.

Any good sources out there?

Tnx,
Mike N2MG

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 

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From jayt@arraysolutions.com  Tue Jun 26 21:23:05 2001
From: jayt@arraysolutions.com (JayTerleski)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:23:05 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Relay source wanted
References: <20010626200837.1464.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <3B38EF29.C967352D@home.com>

Two pole and three poles RF relays are available from us.

See the high power ones at
http://www.arraysolutions.com/Products/ratpak.htm#relay

The smaller ones used in the RATPak are also available.

Jay, WX0B

Mike Gilmer - N2MG wrote:
> 
> I'm looking for 12V 10A relays for an antenna switching project.  I could use DPDT, 3PDT or 4PDT, depending.  I need approx 20-30 of them.
> 
> Any good sources out there?
> 
> Tnx,
> Mike N2MG
> 
> ________________________________________________
> PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart.
> http://www.peoplepc.com
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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-- 
Jay Terleski
Array Solutions - RME Filters
Phased Arrays - Horizontal and Vertical
RF Switches, Antennas & Towers
www.arraysolutions.com

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From mfarrer@tality.com  Tue Jun 26 21:15:41 2001
From: mfarrer@tality.com (Mel Farrer)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:15:41 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Relay source wanted
Message-ID: <97A30A2BBA23D411842900D0B726125D6164C6@srvex03-sanjose.Cadence.COM>

You didn't say if they were coax, open frame etc.  I went through the same
search last year and only found one old manufacturer of open frame ceramic
spacer, Leach.  They are still around at Fair Radio & Nebraska Surplus etc.
Coax in only surplus and unless you get pull-outs at flea markets, very
expensive.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Gilmer - N2MG [mailto:n2mg@contesting.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 1:09 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Relay source wanted


I'm looking for 12V 10A relays for an antenna switching project.  I could
use DPDT, 3PDT or 4PDT, depending.  I need approx 20-30 of them.

Any good sources out there?

Tnx,
Mike N2MG

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 

List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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From WFS004@motorola.com  Tue Jun 26 21:20:30 2001
From: WFS004@motorola.com (Sanborn Fred-WFS004)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:20:30 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Relay source wanted
Message-ID: <591BDFDDD628D311AFB10008C79181C90641B232@il93exm03.css.mot.com>

Have you tried www.allelectronics.com  ?

	Fred  KG9X


> Subject:	[TowerTalk] Relay source wanted
> 
> I'm looking for 12V 10A relays for an antenna switching project.  I could use DPDT, 3PDT or 4PDT, depending.  I need approx 20-30 of them.
> 
> Any good sources out there?
> 
> Tnx,
> Mike N2MG
> 
> 

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From n2mg@contesting.com  Tue Jun 26 21:24:27 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 26 Jun 2001 13:24:27 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Relay source wanted
Message-ID: <20010626202427.21340.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>

Sorry,

Just plain-Jane open frame, unsealed type - actually 5, 12 or 24 VDC coils are fine.

-Mike

On Tue, 26 June 2001, Mel Farrer wrote:

> 
> You didn't say if they were coax, open frame etc.  I went through the same
> search last year and only found one old manufacturer of open frame ceramic
> spacer, Leach.  They are still around at Fair Radio & Nebraska Surplus etc.
> Coax in only surplus and unless you get pull-outs at flea markets, very
> expensive.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Gilmer - N2MG [mailto:n2mg@contesting.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 1:09 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Relay source wanted
> 
> 
> I'm looking for 12V 10A relays for an antenna switching project.  I could
> use DPDT, 3PDT or 4PDT, depending.  I need approx 20-30 of them.
> 
> Any good sources out there?
> 
> Tnx,
> Mike N2MG
> 
> ________________________________________________
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> http://www.peoplepc.com 
> 
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________________________________________________
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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Tue Jun 26 19:54:00 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:54:00 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn25 - different size bolt holes?
References: <008301c0f9e9$01703180$6a211d82@sg2939h.col.hp.com>
Message-ID: <3B38DA48.FC7A4DA9@easystreet.com>

Hi Steve,

Be sure to check the tower legs for bolts stored there.  Rohn ships bolt kits in the
tower leg for 25G.  You need to look through each leg and be sure you can see
unobstructed light through each one.  If you can't see light through each tower leg,
there is some obstruction there and it has to be removed before you install the tower to
allow water drainage.  Standing water in a tower leg acts just like standing water in a
water pipe if it freezes . . . the pipe (tower leg) will burst.

I asked one time why Rohn uses two sized of bolts in tower legs on 25 and 45 sizes and
why they use two bolts of the same size on 55G.  I never got a real answer to that one.
What I was told is that the engineering decision was made so many years ago that nobody
around there now can remember . . .  I have speculated on my own answer . . . not a good
way to do engineering, by the way . . . but it is the best I can do.  There is an
engineering compromise in choosing bolt sizes for tower leg applications.  You want to
go with large bolts for more strength in bolt shear.  You want to go with small bolts so
the tower leg retains most of its strength . . . every bit of material removed by the
drill bit for tower leg bolt holes weakens the tower leg a little more.  I suspect that
using two of the smaller size bolts would not provide enough bolt shear and using two of
the larger size would weaken the joint too much.  A good compromise is to use two
different sizes of bolts in each leg.

I also asked why they used fine thread bolts in 25G but not in 45G or 55G.  Again, the
decision was made so long ago that nobody remembers why . . .  I have used coarse thread
bolts in 25G many times with absolutely no problems.  Coarse thread bolts have the
advantage that they can be "mechanically galvanized" rather than plated.  25G tower leg
bolts are well known to rust after a relatively short time exposed to the elements.  45G
and 55G bolts are coarse threaded and hot dip galvanized and hold up much better in the
weather.  Hot dip galvanized threads tend to fill up with zinc during the hot dip
galvainizing process and sometimes the nuts won't go on nicely.  Mechanically galvanized
bolts hold up like hot dipped bolts but work smoothly like plated bolts, but mechanicaly
galvanized bolts for 25G are necessarily coarse threaded, rather than fine threaded and
plated like supplied by Rohn.

I have bolt kits available and I can provide you with either mechanically galvanized
grade 5 (same grade as Rohn provides) or I can provide you with the exact bolts Rohn
specifies, and I buy those directly from Rohn.

Take a look at my web page to learn more about mechanical galvanizing and check the
prices on the bolt kits.

http://www.reprise.com/antronics/default.asp

Stan
Antronics of Oregon, Inc.
w7ni@easystreet.com

Steve/n0tu wrote:

> Curious why?
>
> Just acquired 60' some vintage of Rohn 25 ...in good shape - no rust or
> broken welds!  Why does it have different size bolt holes on the legs? That
> is, where the legs nest together and have the 2-bolts per leg  one hole is
> larger than the other. Is this a feature? Doesn't look like they've been
> drilled out cuz the galvanizing is still in tack.  Should I use 2 different
> size bolts to fit the holes.TIA Steve/n0tu




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From K7GCO@aol.com  Tue Jun 26 22:36:38 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 17:36:38 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cutting Large Holes in Aluminum
Message-ID: <f9.be83d81.286a5a66@aol.com>

 In a message dated 6/25/01 11:26:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,  writes:
 
 << I have aluminum rectangular blocks (4"x4"x1") that I need to cut a 3"
  diameter hole in (using them instead of muffler clamps).  I tried a bi-metal
  hole saw and also a circle cutter with not much success since I need to make
  about blocks altogether.  I have a metal lathe that I can bore the finish
  diameter on but I would like to get a big chunk of the material out of the
  way (to save some time).  I have also thought of using a smaller drill bit
  (1/2") and drilling a series of holes around the diameter and may do this
  but there seems like there has to be a better (less labor intensive) way.
  
  Thanks
  Mike W9RE
   >>
Mike: If you drill multiple holes and then start to bore the hole it will be 
a bangedy bangedy jarring job and can even break boring bars.  It's hard on 
the lathe bearings also.  If you use a carbide tipped boring bar (and a 
higher HP motor if needed), you can tear off thicker strips of aluminum to 
the point where the even steel chips would be coming off blue and smoking.  
It will do this very well in aluminum but any bumping will break the carbide 
tips.  The aluminum can be hogged out of there really fast.  Even with normal 
boring bars this is a short job as it is.  The clean up time would take 
longer.  I've been there and done that.
 
 When I built the mounts for my 10M 7 element beam I also had all kinds cheap 
aluminum tubing from Boeing Surplus and did all kinds of fancy lathe and mill 
work.  The beam had all kind of mechanical and electrical concepts not seen 
on commercial beams.  I solded the joints with a great flee market aluminum 
solder, had a special DE, a unique mast to boom mount and it had 40 dB 
F/B/Side  This was done under the concept that with all that cheap aluminum, 
I could make an "inexpensive beam".  Nothing would be further from the truth 
but it did work great.  It took about 6 months of spare time using an 
expensive lathe and mill and supporting tools.  That beam cost me a fortune 
and I said "I'd never do that again if something close was available."  That 
big stack of cheap aluminum I've accumulated held in special racks over the 
years has ended up costing me a very big chunk of money and time.  

If someone wants to give you a beam or tower--hang up or run as fast as you 
can the other way.  You will have to pick it up, store it until it can be 
cleaned up thoroughly and properly before installation.  It will cost you 
more than it's worth.  Any special pieces missing will be hard to find and 
costly.   I'm yagi'd out and am switching to mostly quads for new challenges.
 
 I just purchased 2-2 element and a 5 element 6M Raibeams. It would have been 
very costly to duplicate.  I assembled all 3 in an hour and had them up 1 
hour later.  It's "absolutely the least expensive beam I ever bought and 
there isn't a thing I can do to improve it."  It ruined my whole day.  With 
all the money you save by buying a  good beam you can go out and buy a new 
rig.  You can't build a yagi as cheap as you can buy one.  More on the 
Raibeam "Butt Kickers" later.
 
 There was a article in QEX on building a 5 band yagi that would have cost 
several thousand dollars to make--if you could get the aluminum in small 
quatities. The article was by a SM2 using  "Metric Tubing" which isn't even 
available in the US as far as I know.  It was a design using 3 elements on 
each band one in front of the other using about .25 WL of boom each.  It has 
about a 70' boom and that had to be some boom with bracing.sidewards also.  
Only the medium Prop Pitch Motor could handle it along with a big heavy tower 
with lots of guys, big headaches, initial and regular crane costs and wasn't 
really of DX antenna which was infered .  
 
 You would have to put it in Eznec and determine the length of a US tubing 
diameter to replace the metric diameters.  A single 12' length of small 
quantity purchase can cost $100.  I shutter to think what the boom would cost 
or weigh.  It had 5 separate DE's and coaxes and all requiring adjustment 
perhaps with a crane to get to each one.  A tipping boom would be needed 
otherwise.  Even I wouldn't have all this aluminum. You would need a lathe 
and a mill for the hardware, a computor and know how to use Eznec.    
 
 The moral of this story is: 
       "A 5 band quad on a taperd boom of 8' spacing and No Stray 
             RF costing less than $500 would probably out preform 
                       it and you could sleep on windy nights.
 
There was another 20M beam some antenna software had in it as a sample that 
had about 50 telescopng joints requring 50 SS hose clamps.  Inaddition to the 
50 telescoping joints and all that extra weight and excessive cost, it had 
100 more SS to aluminum joints (one on each side of the clamp)(150 total).  
This kind of design nonsense still goes on.  

A quad has ZERO telescoping joints and "NO Electrical Deterioration" with all 
soldred joints.  Quads with the right spreaders are a great antenna to build 
or buy if the DE's aren't all tied together and copper wire is supplied that 
doesn't stretch.  It totally destroys the potential pattern.

If you have any desire to build a yagi I'd forget it unless you have a lot of 
time and money. The only technical knowledge you need to buy one other than 
the one that fits your needs is to create the money to buy it.  You will get 
over it.  Buy one.  I may build a few more.  Don't do as I do--do as I say!  
I'm still working on new yagi designs and there it's justfied.  K7GCO 

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From tgstewart@pepco.com  Tue Jun 26 22:45:41 2001
From: tgstewart@pepco.com (tgstewart@pepco.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 17:45:41 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] KT36xa Upgrade Kit arrived yesterday
Message-ID: <OFD6C95E45.F1FFB165-ON85256A77.0076FD0E@pepco.com>

Very impressive set of machined aluminum hardware!  All new cap tube
insulators (black this time).

Unfortunately, it wont be any easier to assemble than the first
time...well, not much anyway.

There are no specific instructions for the upgrade kit.   You get the
regular manual plus an upgrade parts list and a few general guidelines on a
single sheet.  However, it shouldnt be much different than building the
original.

F/B curves are missing from the pages with the SWR/Gain curves.

73, Ty K3MM


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From mike@kb0ozn.com  Tue Jun 26 22:55:33 2001
From: mike@kb0ozn.com (MikeB)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:55:33 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Grade 5 question different size bolt holes?
References: <008301c0f9e9$01703180$6a211d82@sg2939h.col.hp.com> <3B38DA48.FC7A4DA9@easystreet.com>
Message-ID: <3B3904D5.EF8E680F@kb0ozn.com>

I was reading this and the question occured to me as to whether or not
it mattered if you used grade 5 or went up a step to grade 8???

Thanks
Mike
KB0OZN
> 
> I have bolt kits available and I can provide you with either mechanically galvanized
> grade 5 (same grade as Rohn provides)

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From N4CW@aol.com  Tue Jun 26 23:14:50 2001
From: N4CW@aol.com (N4CW@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:14:50 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40M FD Antenna
Message-ID: <2f.17013c39.286a635a@aol.com>

Out of curiosity, what antennas were truly outstanding during Field Day this 
year? I used a full-wave, fed a quarter wave from one end (up 20 feet!) and 
it performed "just okay", judging by how long it took me to get responses to 
my CQ's.
You can E-mail your responses directly to me to save on bandwidth. 
73, Bert N4CW (N4CW@AOL.COM)

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From n3rr@erols.com  Tue Jun 26 22:36:44 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 22:36:44 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Grade 5 question different size bolt holes?
References: <008301c0f9e9$01703180$6a211d82@sg2939h.col.hp.com> <3B38DA48.FC7A4DA9@easystreet.com> <3B3904D5.EF8E680F@kb0ozn.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c0fe88$195852c0$c80d2c42@billspiii>

My research into this several years ago revealed:

Grade 8 are too brittle for tower applications.
Grade 5 is the recommended grade for tower work.

Bill, N3RR

----- Original Message -----
From: MikeB <mike@kb0ozn.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 10:55 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Grade 5 question different size bolt holes?


> I was reading this and the question occured to me as to whether or not
> it mattered if you used grade 5 or went up a step to grade 8???
>
> Thanks
> Mike
> KB0OZN
> >
> > I have bolt kits available and I can provide you with either
mechanically galvanized
> > grade 5 (same grade as Rohn provides)
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>


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From hankarn@pacbell.net  Wed Jun 27 01:03:42 2001
From: hankarn@pacbell.net (Dan)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 17:03:42 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] KT36xa Upgrade Kit arrived yesterday
References: <OFD6C95E45.F1FFB165-ON85256A77.0076FD0E@pepco.com>
Message-ID: <3B3922DE.D75655BF@pacbell.net>

I just got my upgrade kit and had all of the parts Gold alodined to
match the 34XA that was just alodined. The parts were picked up an hour
ago, so the fun starts tomorrow.
Nice looking kit. when I get this one up will redo my other one.

Hank
KN6DI

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From paulfinch@msn.com  Wed Jun 27 01:45:39 2001
From: paulfinch@msn.com (Paul Finch)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:45:39 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tower Clients wanted for 500 foot towers in Azle, and Sweetwater, Texas..
Message-ID: <CHEAIHGJHDFPBLKFBDLICEBMCFAA.paulfinch@msn.com>


Hello Tower Talk Group,

Since this is a sensitive subject and after checking with group
administrator I will keep it short.

I am looking for rental clients for two towers.  I own a 500 foot tower in
Azle, Texas, about 20 miles Northwest of downtown Fort Worth and represent
another 500 foot tower 7 miles South of Sweetwater, Texas.  Both towers will
take Two-Way, Paging, PCS/Cellular or other tower mounted devices.

If anyone out there has a prospect please contact me directly at
paulfinch@msn.com .

Seems I need some clients to support my Ham Habit.

Further arrangements made off the reflector.

Paul Finch
WB5IDM


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From KI7WX@aol.com  Wed Jun 27 01:58:56 2001
From: KI7WX@aol.com (KI7WX@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:58:56 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40M FD Antenna
Message-ID: <8.1657b233.286a89d0@aol.com>

Hi Bert,

We used a fullsize four element monoband yagi at 120 feet.  It worked OK.

Mark
KI7WX

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From kg5u@hal-pc.org  Wed Jun 27 03:07:08 2001
From: kg5u@hal-pc.org (Dale L Martin)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:07:08 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40M FD Antenna
In-Reply-To: <8.1657b233.286a89d0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBJJHKFOOEGKEBKHOJMEFIDEAA.kg5u@hal-pc.org>


>
> Hi Bert,
>
> We used a fullsize four element monoband yagi at 120 feet.  It worked OK.
>
> Mark
> KI7WX
>
Well of course it worked only "OK."

>From everything I've learned here and read and heard elsewhere, it was way,
way too high for a stateside event.


73,
dale, kg5u


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From callbob@home.com  Wed Jun 27 03:46:20 2001
From: callbob@home.com (BOB (AK6R))
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:46:20 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40M FD Antenna
References: <LPBBJJHKFOOEGKEBKHOJMEFIDEAA.kg5u@hal-pc.org>
Message-ID: <040d01c0feb3$59147d50$e8b50018@vista1.sdca.home.com>

We used a 2 element F12 240X at 66 feet and worked well.  see pictures at:
http://www.qsl.net/ak6r/FD2001/2001_plarc.htm

Bob, AK6R

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale L Martin" <kg5u@hal-pc.org>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 7:07 PM
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 40M FD Antenna


>
> >
> > Hi Bert,
> >
> > We used a fullsize four element monoband yagi at 120 feet.  It worked
OK.
> >
> > Mark
> > KI7WX
> >
> Well of course it worked only "OK."
>
> From everything I've learned here and read and heard elsewhere, it was
way,
> way too high for a stateside event.
>
>
> 73,
> dale, kg5u
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>


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From n4kg@juno.com  Wed Jun 27 05:08:31 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 22:08:31 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40M FD Antenna
Message-ID: <20010626.221312.-130711.4.N4KG@juno.com>

A current fed Long Wire is an OK antenna, but probably NOT at 20 ft.  
There will be DEEP NULLS broadside to the wire and lesser nulls
off the ends of the wire.

I installed a 2L wire beam composed of an inverted VEE plus 
Reflector with 150 degree apex angles and 21 ft of separation
supported by a rope boom  between two 50 ft high light poles
for adjacent baseball fields.  The ends were tied off 200 ft from
the center of the antenna.  This beam was aimed due NORTH
from North Alabama (K4BFT 5A AL).  Performance was AMAZING -  
we had W1's answering CQ's an hour before sunset and VE1,2,3,
5,7, KL7, and even a few Europeans after dark.  With a single inv vee
we usually work far fewer W1's and VE's.  For the West Coast,
we use a vertically polarized Delta Loop which is usually about 
6 dB stronger to W6 / 7 after 11 pm.  It was interesting to note
that we still had many Tex, NM, Ariz, CA stations call after
CQing on the 2L wire beam aimed North.  Some FL stations
were somewhat weak but still called in and were worked off
the back of the beam.  We have used this antenna for the last
2 years and both times beat the 20 / 80 CW station for the first
and second time.  Peak 10 QSO rate was 140, our best ever.

BTW, we also used the 40M wire beam on 15M and worked all 
over the country, jumping from W1/2 to W6/7 to W4. A 3/2 WL current
fed Long Wire (e.g. 40M straight dipole used on 15M) has 6 lobes.
If the ends are dropped SLIGHTLY (15 to 30 degrees), the nulls
are filled in.  If the ends are dropped too much (45 degrees) it
becomes much less effective.

K4BFT  40 / 15 / 10 CW station results using 100W output:

40M  CW  QSO's  738	2L40 Inv Vee + Vert Polarized Delta Loop
15M  CW  QSO's  355   40M Inv Vee
10M  CW  QSO's    15   40M Vertically polarized Delta Loop)

Total station QSO's  1108 


On Tue, 26 Jun 2001  EDT N4CW@aol.com writes:
> Out of curiosity, what antennas were truly outstanding during Field 
> Day this > year? I used a full-wave, fed a quarter wave from one end
(up 20 
> feet!) and  it performed "just okay", judging by how long it took me to
get 
> responses to  my CQ's.
> You can E-mail your responses directly to me to save on bandwidth. 
> 73, Bert N4CW (N4CW@AOL.COM)
> 

________________________________________________________________
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From W8JI@contesting.com  Wed Jun 27 05:32:32 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:32:32 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Relay source wanted
In-Reply-To: <20010626202427.21340.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <200106270435.f5R4ZNN14428@paris.akorn.net>

> Just plain-Jane open frame, unsealed type - actually 5, 12 or 24 VDC coils
> are fine.
> 
> -Mike

Did you say if transmitting, receiving, and how much voltage you 
might expect to have or the frequency range??

What works well for receiving are normal DPDT dip package relays, 
I have many dozens in use with some being used for at least 15 
years!

Many control relays are suitable for transmitting applications, no 
need to buy anything exotic for HF applications using low or 
modest impedance lines. Loss in any relay will be immeasurable at 
HF, so the only real concern is the SWR bump they add and the 
voltage and current ratings.

I use Magnecraft W389CX-7 DPDT relays for most switching 
applications not handled by RCS-8V relay boxes or vacuum relays 
(where speed is required). 

That Magnecraft W389 relay is rated for 1HP 600VAC motor 
control applications. Since that relay easily handles 10kW into 
matched loads, it has a lot of headroom for SWR or operator 
errors... like hot switching at a kilowatt or two. I pay under $10 new 
for them, and they last forever. They not only reasonable in price, 
they have a plastic dust cover with mounting tabs.

If you want a single-pole double-throw relay, especially one for 
VHF, look at form-X contacts. This style contact pulls a shorting 
bar between stationary contacts, so they have the advantage of 
almost zero lead length through the relay. Since no thin long wires 
carry RF, they are generally usable to a few hundred MHz.

When picking a relay you want to look at physical spacing 
between contacts and the swinger's metal armature. Make sure the 
relay has thick (16 ga or larger) but very flexible leads, and wide 
contacts and contact support bars and terminals.
   
This is generally satisfied by relays used for motor control and 
ballast operation. You can bet if the insulation passes UL testing 
for 300-600VAC switching operation, and if contacts are rated at an 
AC switching current of 15 amperes or higher at any voltage (that 
rating is the actual hot-switching rating, which you will hopefully 
never do), the relay will be an excellent transmitting relay.

   

73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From 107770.3462@compuserve.com  Wed Jun 27 05:38:05 2001
From: 107770.3462@compuserve.com (James  P. Cassidy)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:38:05 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40M FD Antenna
Message-ID: <200106270038_MC3-D737-898F@compuserve.com>

At K7AW we used a 2 el wire yagi on 40m almost exactly as N4KG described
his.  Ours was spaced at 22ft due to the width of the deck around the fire
lookout tower at 40ft high.  The apex of the antenna was about 60 ft raised
above the 40ft deck height.  The driven element was on the east side of the
deck and the reflector on the west side.  Field strength measurement showed
a reading of 17 on the east and 1 on the west.

The antenna really worked well with only 5w QRP power.  I missed most of
the action but when I hit 40m SSB about 4AM PDT was able to work almost
anything I could hear with ease.  Mostly midwest but some east coast as
well.  
All antennas except for 6m were wires.  Sterba Curtains on 10,15 and a Lazy
H on 20m.

73 Jim KI7Y

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From djl@andlev.com  Wed Jun 27 05:53:29 2001
From: djl@andlev.com (Dan Levin)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:53:29 -0700 (PST)
Subject: [TowerTalk] Safety Device for Trylon Tower?
Message-ID: <200106270453.AAA23386@arkroyal.cnchost.com>

I am putting up a T400-80 Trylon 80 foot freestanding 
tower in a few weeks.  I'd like to be as safe as 
possible when climbing it, but I am also a cheap 
SOB.  So I am thinking about installing a very simple 
fall protection system.

My idea is to take 6 pieces of 1/4"x2"x2" or so angle 
iron, and drill a 1/2" hole about 2" from one end.  I 
would bolt these pieces horizontally onto 2 legs of 
the tower about every 10 feet, with the end with the 
hole sticking out from the tower 6" or so and with 
the hole facing up and down.  Then I would attach one 
end of an 80 foot long piece of 1/4" wire rope to the 
top of the tower, and thread it down through the 
holes in the pieces of angle iron and then attach it 
to the bottom of the tower.  So I would have a wire 
rope running up the tower, spaced off the tower 6" by 
these pieces of angle iron every 10 feet.

The idea is that I would clip my fall arrest lanyard 
to the wire rope as I climb up or down.  Every 10 
feet, I would come to one of the pieces of angle 
iron, and I would have to unclip from the wire rope 
on one side of the iron and re-clip to the wire rope 
on the other side.  Other than that, while I am 
climbing the lanyard clasp would just slide on the 
wire rope.

If I fall, the lanyard clasp would slide down the 
wire rope until it got to the nearest piece of angle 
iron where it would stop.  The angle iron would catch 
the lanyard, and the lanyard would arrest my fall.  
In essence, I would be clipped in to the next lowest 
angle iron.  My fall would never be more than 10 feet 
plus the length of my lanyard.

Does this make any sense at all?  It would be cheap 
(1/4" stainless cable is pretty cheap, and so is the 
angle) and doesn't require any special 'trolley' or 
ratchet to work.  It seems like it would be 
effective, and I am much more likely to use it than I 
am to clip on to the tower itself every 4'.

Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Am I crazy?  Is every 10' 
too often - can I get away with every 20'?

Thanks much as always,

               ***dan, K6IF

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From n9iww2@verizon.net  Wed Jun 27 06:41:42 2001
From: n9iww2@verizon.net (Kevin Adam, Webz By design)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:41:42 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Safety Device for Trylon Tower?
In-Reply-To: <200106270453.AAA23386@arkroyal.cnchost.com>
Message-ID: <000001c0fecb$e9aeff30$13a60304@n9iww>


Are you near one of those cell towers that Rohn makes they look just
like a flag pole they have just what your talking about on the side of
them you not ridiculous but you need to calculate the shear force that
you have on the cable to keep it from breaking on falling forces weight
wise.
N9IWW
Kevin Adam
1239 W. Till Rd.
Fort Wayne IN. 46825
219-490-7312
http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
n9iww@mail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dan Levin
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 11:53 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Safety Device for Trylon Tower?

I am putting up a T400-80 Trylon 80 foot freestanding 
tower in a few weeks.  I'd like to be as safe as 
possible when climbing it, but I am also a cheap 
SOB.  So I am thinking about installing a very simple 
fall protection system.

My idea is to take 6 pieces of 1/4"x2"x2" or so angle 
iron, and drill a 1/2" hole about 2" from one end.  I 
would bolt these pieces horizontally onto 2 legs of 
the tower about every 10 feet, with the end with the 
hole sticking out from the tower 6" or so and with 
the hole facing up and down.  Then I would attach one 
end of an 80 foot long piece of 1/4" wire rope to the 
top of the tower, and thread it down through the 
holes in the pieces of angle iron and then attach it 
to the bottom of the tower.  So I would have a wire 
rope running up the tower, spaced off the tower 6" by 
these pieces of angle iron every 10 feet.

The idea is that I would clip my fall arrest lanyard 
to the wire rope as I climb up or down.  Every 10 
feet, I would come to one of the pieces of angle 
iron, and I would have to unclip from the wire rope 
on one side of the iron and re-clip to the wire rope 
on the other side.  Other than that, while I am 
climbing the lanyard clasp would just slide on the 
wire rope.

If I fall, the lanyard clasp would slide down the 
wire rope until it got to the nearest piece of angle 
iron where it would stop.  The angle iron would catch 
the lanyard, and the lanyard would arrest my fall.  
In essence, I would be clipped in to the next lowest 
angle iron.  My fall would never be more than 10 feet 
plus the length of my lanyard.

Does this make any sense at all?  It would be cheap 
(1/4" stainless cable is pretty cheap, and so is the 
angle) and doesn't require any special 'trolley' or 
ratchet to work.  It seems like it would be 
effective, and I am much more likely to use it than I 
am to clip on to the tower itself every 4'.

Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Am I crazy?  Is every 10' 
too often - can I get away with every 20'?

Thanks much as always,

               ***dan, K6IF

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From n6nz@n6nz.net  Wed Jun 27 08:26:47 2001
From: n6nz@n6nz.net (Dave N6NZ)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:26:47 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TowerTalk] Safety Device for Trylon Tower?
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010627002603.0094dc60@ns.dave-curtis.com>

forgot to copy reflector -- n6nz
>Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:25:32 -0700
>To: Dan Levin <djl@andlev.com>
>From: Dave N6NZ <n6nz@n6nz.net>
>Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Safety Device for Trylon Tower?
>
>A commercially available solution is a "cam lock rope grab" -- $50 to $150 
>or so for OSHA approved units -- you run 3-strand 5/8" rope top to bottom 
>and clip onto it with the rope grab.  If you fall, your weight engages the 
>cam and grabs the rope.
>
>73, N6NZ
>
>At 09:53 PM 6/26/01 -0700, you wrote:
>>I am putting up a T400-80 Trylon 80 foot freestanding
>>tower in a few weeks.  I'd like to be as safe as
>>possible when climbing it, but I am also a cheap
>>SOB.  So I am thinking about installing a very simple
>>fall protection system.
>>
>>My idea is to take 6 pieces of 1/4"x2"x2" or so angle
>>iron, and drill a 1/2" hole about 2" from one end.  I
>>would bolt these pieces horizontally onto 2 legs of
>>the tower about every 10 feet, with the end with the
>>hole sticking out from the tower 6" or so and with
>>the hole facing up and down.  Then I would attach one
>>end of an 80 foot long piece of 1/4" wire rope to the
>>top of the tower, and thread it down through the
>>holes in the pieces of angle iron and then attach it
>>to the bottom of the tower.  So I would have a wire
>>rope running up the tower, spaced off the tower 6" by
>>these pieces of angle iron every 10 feet.
>>
>>The idea is that I would clip my fall arrest lanyard
>>to the wire rope as I climb up or down.  Every 10
>>feet, I would come to one of the pieces of angle
>>iron, and I would have to unclip from the wire rope
>>on one side of the iron and re-clip to the wire rope
>>on the other side.  Other than that, while I am
>>climbing the lanyard clasp would just slide on the
>>wire rope.
>>
>>If I fall, the lanyard clasp would slide down the
>>wire rope until it got to the nearest piece of angle
>>iron where it would stop.  The angle iron would catch
>>the lanyard, and the lanyard would arrest my fall.
>>In essence, I would be clipped in to the next lowest
>>angle iron.  My fall would never be more than 10 feet
>>plus the length of my lanyard.
>>
>>Does this make any sense at all?  It would be cheap
>>(1/4" stainless cable is pretty cheap, and so is the
>>angle) and doesn't require any special 'trolley' or
>>ratchet to work.  It seems like it would be
>>effective, and I am much more likely to use it than I
>>am to clip on to the tower itself every 4'.
>>
>>Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Am I crazy?  Is every 10'
>>too often - can I get away with every 20'?
>>
>>Thanks much as always,
>>
>>                ***dan, K6IF
>>
>>List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
>>for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
>>96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
>>HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
>>www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>>
>>-----
>>FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
>>Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
>>Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
>>Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com


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From davidw@copper.net  Wed Jun 27 11:17:23 2001
From: davidw@copper.net (David J. Windisch)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 06:17:23 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cutting Large Holes in Aluminum
References: <NCBBIPEKMKEIENBFHFHJOEHGECAA.w9re@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <001201c0fef2$5ba73780$31a71cd8@davidw>

I have cut 2-1/2" holes in the same stuf for the same reasons using the good
(expensive) coring hole-saws in a floor-model drill press.   Cut from both
sides.   Used lotsa cutting oil, and had no problems.   Took about a
half-hour per hole.

73, Dave, K3BHJ


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From n4zr@contesting.com  Wed Jun 27 12:09:02 2001
From: n4zr@contesting.com (Pete Smith)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 07:09:02 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Relay source wanted
In-Reply-To: <200106270435.f5R4ZNN14428@paris.akorn.net>
References: <20010626202427.21340.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010627070902.00afc100@mail.abs.adelphia.net>

At 12:32 AM 6/27/01 -0400, Tom Rauch wrote:
>If you want a single-pole double-throw relay, especially one for 
>VHF, look at form-X contacts. This style contact pulls a shorting 
>bar between stationary contacts, so they have the advantage of 
>almost zero lead length through the relay. Since no thin long wires 
>carry RF, they are generally usable to a few hundred MHz.
>
Sounds interesting, Tom.  Can you suggest some specific relays that
incorporate this contact design, or a reference that will list ones that
do?  I know you've said in the past that they are used in the Ameritron
RCS-8, but don't have one here I can open up to see.

73, Pete N4ZR
No, no ... that's WEST Virginia





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From vsantis@javanet.com" <vsantis@javanet.com  Wed Jun 27 12:17:35 2001
From: vsantis@javanet.com" <vsantis@javanet.com (Vincent A. Santis)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 07:17:35 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] MFJ 961 Artificial Ground
Message-ID: <01C0FED9.5896A580.vsantis@javanet.com>

Hi,
Has anyone used  the MFJ artificial ground with a coax fed dipole with the 
station too far from an earth ground? By too far I mean a second or third 
floor installation.  I will appreciate all comments.
Thanks,

Vince Santis, N1VS
Winsted, CT


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From w5kp@swbell.net  Wed Jun 27 12:46:09 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 06:46:09 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Safety Device for Trylon Tower?
References: <200106270453.AAA23386@arkroyal.cnchost.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c0fefe$c312a060$5521c1cf@jkdesktop>

I dunno, Dan. There are thousands of things in life it makes sense to save a
few dollars on, but I don't think fall protection should be one of them. If
you aren't willing to use a double lanyard or two gorilla hooks to keep
yourself clipped to the tower at ALL times (actually, a very inexpensive way
to go), then the commercial cable FPS with a one-way sliding ratchet
mechanism, clipped CLOSE to your fall harness, seems to me to be the right
way. Besides, a dead fall (no pun intended) of 10' plus lanyard length will
accelerate your bod to a very unforgiving stop, likely slapping you upside
the head or body with several thousand pounds of tower. Recovering from a
fall and climbing back down with a broken arm or shoulder might not be much
fun, either.  Having to unclip/reclip every 10' would give me the willies,
but then I'm basically old and chicken where towers are concerned. Being
unattached at ANY time is something I just won't do, it momentarily reduces
my mental comfort level to near zero. I seem to recall something about there
being no old, bold pilots... :-) I wish you brave young fellers out there
the best of luck.
73, Jerry W5KP

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Levin <djl@andlev.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 11:53 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Safety Device for Trylon Tower?


> I am putting up a T400-80 Trylon 80 foot freestanding
> tower in a few weeks.  I'd like to be as safe as
> possible when climbing it, but I am also a cheap
> SOB.  So I am thinking about installing a very simple
> fall protection system.
>
> My idea is to take 6 pieces of 1/4"x2"x2" or so angle
> iron, and drill a 1/2" hole about 2" from one end.  I
> would bolt these pieces horizontally onto 2 legs of
> the tower about every 10 feet, with the end with the
> hole sticking out from the tower 6" or so and with
> the hole facing up and down.  Then I would attach one
> end of an 80 foot long piece of 1/4" wire rope to the
> top of the tower, and thread it down through the
> holes in the pieces of angle iron and then attach it
> to the bottom of the tower.  So I would have a wire
> rope running up the tower, spaced off the tower 6" by
> these pieces of angle iron every 10 feet.
>
> The idea is that I would clip my fall arrest lanyard
> to the wire rope as I climb up or down.  Every 10
> feet, I would come to one of the pieces of angle
> iron, and I would have to unclip from the wire rope
> on one side of the iron and re-clip to the wire rope
> on the other side.  Other than that, while I am
> climbing the lanyard clasp would just slide on the
> wire rope.
>
> If I fall, the lanyard clasp would slide down the
> wire rope until it got to the nearest piece of angle
> iron where it would stop.  The angle iron would catch
> the lanyard, and the lanyard would arrest my fall.
> In essence, I would be clipped in to the next lowest
> angle iron.  My fall would never be more than 10 feet
> plus the length of my lanyard.
>
> Does this make any sense at all?  It would be cheap
> (1/4" stainless cable is pretty cheap, and so is the
> angle) and doesn't require any special 'trolley' or
> ratchet to work.  It seems like it would be
> effective, and I am much more likely to use it than I
> am to clip on to the tower itself every 4'.
>
> Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Am I crazy?  Is every 10'
> too often - can I get away with every 20'?
>
> Thanks much as always,
>
>                ***dan, K6IF
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>


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From hankarn@pacbell.net  Wed Jun 27 13:20:55 2001
From: hankarn@pacbell.net (Dan)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 05:20:55 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Safety Device for Trylon Tower?
References: <200106270453.AAA23386@arkroyal.cnchost.com>
Message-ID: <3B39CFA7.E34D5BE8@pacbell.net>

Dan, How hard is your head? or your arms, legs etc. about hitting the
angle sticking out that you hit while you are swinging around on the
lanyard?

What is wrong with climbing and clipping etc? Lot safer.
Are you using a fully approved harness and fall arrest lanyard? As you
say you are cheap!! did you go cheap on the climbing gear???? Or pop the
bucks for safe gear.
Why not a professional tower man, let him have all of the liability and
expense.
I use a crane and full body harness. It is faster, safer and I can tweak
each element if needed, unless you are spiderman and light as a feather
or have veeeerrrrrryyyy looooonnnnggggg arms to reach the elements it is
up and down until it is tweaked. We tweak at the operating height.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SAFELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hank 
KN6DI
 You asked

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From steve@oakcom.com  Wed Jun 27 13:46:30 2001
From: steve@oakcom.com (Steve Maki)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 08:46:30 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Safety Device for Trylon Tower?
In-Reply-To: <200106270453.AAA23386@arkroyal.cnchost.com>
References: <200106270453.AAA23386@arkroyal.cnchost.com>
Message-ID: <tggjjt8v482qdjel20n2c3d3kj69horudb@4ax.com>

Dan Levin wrote:

>My idea is to take 6 pieces of 1/4"x2"x2" or so angle 
>iron, and drill a 1/2" hole about 2" from one end.  I 
>would bolt these pieces horizontally onto 2 legs of 
>the tower about every 10 feet, with the end with the 
>hole sticking out from the tower 6" or so and with 
>the hole facing up and down.  Then I would attach one 
>end of an 80 foot long piece of 1/4" wire rope to the 
>top of the tower, and thread it down through the 
>holes in the pieces of angle iron and then attach it 
>to the bottom of the tower.  So I would have a wire 
>rope running up the tower, spaced off the tower 6" by 
>these pieces of angle iron every 10 feet.
>
>The idea is that I would clip my fall arrest lanyard 
>to the wire rope as I climb up or down.  Every 10 
>feet, I would come to one of the pieces of angle 
>iron, and I would have to unclip from the wire rope 
>on one side of the iron and re-clip to the wire rope 
>on the other side.  Other than that, while I am 
>climbing the lanyard clasp would just slide on the 
>wire rope.
>
>If I fall, the lanyard clasp would slide down the 
>wire rope until it got to the nearest piece of angle 
>iron where it would stop.  The angle iron would catch 
>the lanyard, and the lanyard would arrest my fall.  
>In essence, I would be clipped in to the next lowest 
>angle iron.  My fall would never be more than 10 feet 
>plus the length of my lanyard.

Exactly how would you clip your lanyard onto 1/4"
wire rope? There are basically two types of commonly
available rope "grabs" (or sliders):

1) made for 3/8" wire rope, and
2) made for 5/8" synthetic rope.

Also, although rope grabs are fairly easy to remove
and re-affix to the line, you do not want to have to
do that every 10' or 20'. Of course, you could have
one for each span, but they cost $150 each or so.

Commercial fall arrest systems use snap-in standoffs.
The first guy up the tower pulls the safety line out
of the standoffs, and it generally is left that way
until that crews' job is done. The last guy off the
tower pops it back in on the way down.

The standoffs are generally located every 20' or so.
They are sold as parts of a system (not cheap of course),
but the standoffs themselves, if you can find them
separately, should be fairly inexpensive. Virtually
all tower manufacturers offer vertical safety line
kits as accessories.

Alternately, you could homebrew some sort of snap-in
bracket. It's only purpose is to keep the cable from
slapping the tower - but it should not impede the
climber. If dealing with your fall arrest system wears
you out by the time you reach the top, assume it needs
improvement.

The type of standoff that comes with some crankups for
holding the feedlines would probably work with a little
modification.

73,

--
Steve K8LX


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From charlie.ocker@tellabs.com  Wed Jun 27 14:49:52 2001
From: charlie.ocker@tellabs.com (Charlie Ocker)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 08:49:52 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40M FD Antenna
Message-ID: <3B39E480.555562D3@tellabs.com>

The 40M/80M FD antenna at K9RN (3A IL) was a 130' drooping dipole, apex
~ 20'.  The ends were ~ 10' high.
Center fed with cheap 450 ohm "window" ladder line.  Pretty much direct
run of feedline from dipole to homebrew balanced L-Network tuner (Rich
Measures' design from early 90's QST article).

Results speak for themselves:

   BAND   Raw QSOs   Valid QSOs   Points   
 __________________________________________

   80CW      216         206        412 
   40CW      653         607       1214 
   20CW      399         377        754 
   15CW       85          81        162 
   10CW        2           2          4 
 __________________________________________

 Totals     1355        1273       2546 

High band antenna used was HyGain TH-2 at about 23' high.

Other antenna was ~100' wire for RX use on 80m, about 7' high.

Rig was TS-930 with 100w out.

73,
Charlie  N9CO

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From W8JI@contesting.com  Wed Jun 27 15:24:58 2001
From: W8JI@contesting.com (Tom Rauch)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:24:58 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Relay source wanted
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010627070902.00afc100@mail.abs.adelphia.net>
References: <200106270435.f5R4ZNN14428@paris.akorn.net>
Message-ID: <200106271427.f5RERqN25485@paris.akorn.net>

> Sounds interesting, Tom.  Can you suggest some specific relays that
> incorporate this contact design, or a reference that will list ones that
> do?  I know you've said in the past that they are used in the Ameritron
> RCS-8, but don't have one here I can open up to see.

There are dozens of off-the-shelf relays that use form-X contacts, 
so one would have to look through Web pages or catalogs. They 
are mostly power relays, and some that will easily handle 1.5kW 
are in the range of less than $2 each wholesale!

The RCS-8 relay is a custom relay. It is a good example of how 
well a form-X contact works at RF. If you don't hot switch that relay 
it will handle 10 kilowatts into a matched 50 ohm load up to 30 
MHz, and has negligible SWR below 250 MHz in a good layout.

The same style relay from the same source using conventional 
leads and normal contact arrangements is marginal at a few 
kilowatts and shows SWR problems at 30-40 MHz.

Relays are a lot like switches. The arrangement of contacts and 
the routing and positioning of voltage standoff and current carrying 
is more important that things that often impress us, like being big 
or having lots of ceramic.

Looking at the switch (or relays) and following the current path and 
looking at possible arc paths is the best way to pick a relay, along 
with eventual RF testing. The first thing I do with sealed is get a 
sample and look at lead lengths and surface area as well as 
potential arc paths, even if I have to cut a few sealed relays open.

Some very big and very expensive switches and relays handle 
considerably less power than some pretty small and inexpensive 
switches and relays. A small ruler and good eye will tell you the 
likelihood of success.
73, Tom W8JI
W8JI@contesting.com 

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From asfco@nycap.rr.com  Wed Jun 27 15:35:26 2001
From: asfco@nycap.rr.com (asfco)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:35:26 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] straightning bent tower section
Message-ID: <3B39EF2E.5CF86A4E@nycap.rr.com>

The top 20 or so foot section of my tower is in need of some
straightning. It appears that at some point in its life it was tilted
over while it was extended and struck the ground rather hard...
   Everything looks straight until the top tower section is cranked up
about 1/4 of the way.
   Anyone have any suggestions as to how to remedy this??
Thanks
Steve
W2GB


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From K7GCO@aol.com  Wed Jun 27 16:07:15 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:07:15 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40M FD Antenna
Message-ID: <67.1607f298.286b50a3@aol.com>

 In a message dated 6/26/01 8:36:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, n4kg@juno.com 
writes:
  << A current fed Long Wire is an OK antenna, but probably NOT at 20 ft.  
  There will be DEEP NULLS broadside to the wire and lesser nulls
  off the ends of the wire.
  
  I installed a 2L wire beam composed of an inverted VEE plus 
  Reflector with 150 degree apex angles and 21 ft of separation
  supported by a rope boom  between two 50 ft high light poles
  for adjacent baseball fields.  The ends were tied off 200 ft from
  the center of the antenna.  This beam was aimed due NORTH
  from North Alabama (K4BFT 5A AL).  Performance was AMAZING -  
  we had W1's answering CQ's an hour before sunset and VE1,2,3,
  5,7, KL7, and even a few Europeans after dark.  With a single inv vee
  we usually work far fewer W1's and VE's.  For the West Coast,
  we use a vertically polarized Delta Loop which is usually about 
  6 dB stronger to W6 / 7 after 11 pm.  It was interesting to note
  that we still had many Tex, NM, Ariz, CA stations call after
  CQing on the 2L wire beam aimed North.  Some FL stations
  were somewhat weak but still called in and were worked off
  the back of the beam.  We have used this antenna for the last
  2 years and both times beat the 20 / 80 CW station for the first
  and second time.  Peak 10 QSO rate was 140, our best ever.
  
  BTW, we also used the 40M wire beam on 15M and worked all 
  over the country, jumping from W1/2 to W6/7 to W4. A 3/2 WL current
  fed Long Wire (e.g. 40M straight dipole used on 15M) has 6 lobes.
  If the ends are dropped SLIGHTLY (15 to 30 degrees), the nulls
  are filled in.  If the ends are dropped too much (45 degrees) it
  becomes much less effective.
  
  K4BFT  40 / 15 / 10 CW station results using 100W output:
  
  40M  CW  QSO's  738   2L40 Inv Vee + Vert Polarized Delta Loop
  15M  CW  QSO's  355   40M Inv Vee
  10M  CW  QSO's    15   40M Vertically polarized Delta Loop)
  
  Total station QSO's  1108 
  
  
  On Tue, 26 Jun 2001  EDT N4CW@aol.com writes:
  > Out of curiosity, what antennas were truly outstanding during Field 
  > Day this > year? I used a full-wave, fed a quarter wave from one end
  (up 20 
  > feet!) and  it performed "just okay", judging by how long it took me to
  get 
  > responses to  my CQ's.
  > You can E-mail your responses directly to me to save on bandwidth. 
  > 73, Bert N4CW (N4CW@AOL.COM)
  > 
The inverted vee beam does indeed work very well.  In support of the the 
above report, some time after my first article on the inverted vee in 8/60 
QST, someone came out with a phasing box that would phase and match 2 similar 
inverted vees about .2 WL apart with separate coax feed.  You could reverse 
the pattern, adjusts for max gain or F/B or the 8JK configuration.  For 
someone in the Midwest this would be a great FD or anytime antenna to meet 
all the different conditions.  I used it on 160-40M and will use it again.    
 

Another favorite "Hard Butt Kicker" for year around base use and for Field 
Day, I have used horizontally oriented quads on 160,80&40M .1-.2 WL high.  
Their vertical and broadside "figure 8" pattern uses the ground as a 
reflector to give the RF a "jump start" up to the reflecting medium in the 
sky and back down to the receiving antennas "Without Passing Monopoly Ground" 
again with very very good strength out to 3000 miles much to my surprise.  
The high angle pattern is fairly broad and the very low loss path seems to 
make up for reduction of gain at say 45 degrees.  I call it the "Slam Dunk 
Antenna."  There is a lot of signals on 40M all over the country on FD night 
on (also160&80), so a good signal is needed to work the East coast and 
Midwest from Seattle on 40M.  It's a great antenna locally 24 hours a day  

I've used 100 ohm balanced coax into a Match Box for example on a 40M quad 
loop on 40,20,15&10M.  It's a great match on all 4 bands and fairly quiet 
also with balanced 100 ohms coax and the selectivity of a Match Box.  I've 
also used a 1/2 wave of 450 ohm open wire line cut for and Grid Dipped at 7.1 
MHz into the Match Box for all these bands and it repeats the quads Lo-Z at 
the end of the feedline which the Match Box matches on all bands--only if you 
try it.  
 
 An interesting concept occurs on 75M--not needing the Match Box.  The 40M 
quad loop is a 1/2 wave long on 80M presenting a very high Z at the balanced 
feedpoint.  It's a bit lower Z at about the right value if a 2 wire loop is 
used spaced about 6" to simulate a fatter dipole and the Z was about 4050 
ohms.  The open wire line is now a 1/4 wave long on 80/75M and inverts the 
Hi-Z to a Low Z.  Guess what the Lo-Z was?  Are you setting down?  It was 50 
ohms--I lucked out.  If it wasn't I'd have adjusted the spacing of the 2 wire 
quad loop so the Z there inverted down to 50 ohms.  I could also adjust the 
spacing of the open wire line to fine tune the Z seen at the end of the 
feedline--but I didn't have to.  Now using a technique I used in another 
application I hooked one wire to my IC-720 50 ohm input and the other lead to 
a 3 gang BC variable stator and the rotor/frame to the rig ground lug.  The 
variable has a plate bent over so that when it's closed it's shorted out.  As 
you go higher in frequency the inductive reactance reflected at the end of a 
1/4 wave feedline is canceled out by the right setting of the Xc depending 
what frequency you are on above the lower resonant frequency of the loop and 
open wire line--all the way to 4 MHz.  Resonant low and tune high.  The 
remaining Rt value doesn't change much all the way to 4 MHz allowing one to 
operate the entire 80/75M band-even with no tuner other than the BC 3 gang 
variable.  It's a great concept.  I've never tried a typical rigs tuner on 
this as when I first did this they didn't have them internally.  It works 
great even though it's a balanced feedline into an unbalanced xmiter output.  
If you talk to the RF it will behave.  

The pattern and gain of a 40M loop in Eznec is hardly different on 80/75M 
than a 80/75M WL quad loop is on 75M.  So a 40M horizontally oriented loop 
operates on 80/75/40M with high/medium angle and on 20,15&10M end fire/low 
angle with progressive gain.  It's a great FD antenna.  There is more.  I 
struck a "RF Gold Mine."
 
On 30,17&12 the 40M quad loop has a Hi-Z feed and the feedline is an odd 
number of 1/4 waves which inverts the 40M loops Hi-Z to a Lo-Z at the end of 
the feedline for the Match Box and easy matching.  When I get time I'll write 
this up with all the patterns and Z's.  There is more. 
 
A lower frequency version does the same on 160&80/75M.  In SD 3 years ago I 
had a 75M horizontal quad 20' high over the street fed with a 1/2 wave of 600 
ohms Zo open wire line cut for 3.56 MHz into the Match Box.  This Match Box 
really gets a work out if you know how to use it.  It would put a 20/9 signal 
into Seattle on 75M running 100W.  That's not exactly high angle.
 
 On 160M a Match Box made just for 160M I'm sad to say--finally failed.  
Using a UnUn mobile toroid with Z steps all the way down to 6 ohms, I 
inserted it in one leg and it matched 1:1 at 17 ohms at 1.8 MHz and 23 ohms 
at 2 MHz.  That's too low for the Match Box.  I used my trusty 1936 BC 
variable once gain (everyone should have one) and it tuned out the reactance 
all the way to 2 MHz.  Now this is only the 2nd 160M antenna I've been able 
to "use across the entire band" with a low SWR to coax.  I calculated the 75M 
single wire quads Z at about 21,000 ohms.  The band width is very narrow due 
the 1247/1 Z step down ratio but it sure worked well at 20' high.  I will 
make a "2 wire version" to decrease the Z to about 7000 ohms to give 50 ohms 
using 600 ohm open wire line.  I have a model of this in Eznec.  That's only 
a 144 ohm step Z down and should give much better bandwidth and no step 
matching xformer is needed--just the BC variable.Xc.  Very simple indeed.  I 
calculated that a 1025 Zo open wire line would have matched the 21,000 ohms 
to 50 ohms.  Unfortunately the Zo of open wire line tends to top out at about 
660 ohms with reasonable spacing wider than 6".    
 
75M quad loop presents a Lo-Z on all bands now and a 1/2 wave open wire line 
cut and grid dipped for 3.562 MHz will be a 1/2 wave or multiples on all 
bands (close enough) reflecting the 1 WL quads Lo-Z at the end of the 
feedline for easy matching into most any tuner in particular with a "2 wire 
quad" to simulate larger diameter.  Unbalanced tuners can even be used with 
toroids on the coax.  This is a great FD or Base antenna.  Now this and the 
previous 40M quad only works if you actually try it.    
 
I want to erect again a 1 WL horizontal quad loop hung between the baseball 
light poles at home in SD cut for 900KHz (292'/side).  It's not for the BC 
band but to have an "end fire pattern" on 160,80,40M with "progressive gain." 
 There are football fields with poles the right spacing that aren't used on 
FD (baseball fields will be) that would be absolutely great FD sites.  If the 
football field light poles aren't wide enough make it rectangle.  I'd like to 
take that new Yaesu 5W rig to Safeco Field with the big roof during a game 
and do some gamma matching with a tuner on 160,80,40M.  Big bridges are 
potential 160,80&40M antennas anytime as are water towers if there are no 
other RF Service antennas on it.  Those big cranes used in shipyards are 
potential antennas with some "creative feedline matching" using a tuner and a 
wire with a vice grip pliers to make a connection.  I'd like to try the Space 
Needle or the Narrows Bridge on 160M.  Awesome!  K7GCO

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Wed Jun 27 18:25:23 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:25:23 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] straightning bent tower section
Message-ID: <7d.170ea789.286b7103@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/27/01 7:35:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
asfco@nycap.rr.com writes:

> The top 20 or so foot section of my tower is in need of some
>  straightning. It appears that at some point in its life it was tilted
>  over while it was extended and struck the ground rather hard...
>     Everything looks straight until the top tower section is cranked up
>  about 1/4 of the way.
>     Anyone have any suggestions as to how to remedy this??

    Okay - how about telling us what kind of tower it is. More details are 
necessary before anyone can give you an educated answer.

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech

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From w5kp@swbell.net  Thu Jun 28 00:38:07 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 18:38:07 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] straightning bent tower section
References: <3B39EF2E.5CF86A4E@nycap.rr.com>
Message-ID: <002101c0ff62$38821160$7b21c1cf@jkdesktop>

Assuming the section can be pulled out and transported, an auto
frame-straightening shop should have the precision hydraulic equipment to do
it. I'd be a little afraid of cracked welds, though, at this point. Too bad
magnafluxing and other forms of NDT are so expensive to do.
Jerry W5KP


----- Original Message -----
From: asfco <asfco@nycap.rr.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 9:35 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] straightning bent tower section


> The top 20 or so foot section of my tower is in need of some
> straightning. It appears that at some point in its life it was tilted
> over while it was extended and struck the ground rather hard...
>    Everything looks straight until the top tower section is cranked up
> about 1/4 of the way.
>    Anyone have any suggestions as to how to remedy this??
> Thanks
> Steve
> W2GB
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>
>


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From butcher@pinn.net  Thu Jun 28 02:36:32 2001
From: butcher@pinn.net (Marvin L. Achterhof)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 21:36:32 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Spacing Question
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010627213632.006f44f4@pinn.net>

Getting ready to put up a 52' crank-up tower and I'm wondering what kind of
spacing I should use for the antennas.  The plan is to have a F12 C-3, a 6m
(possibly a F12 EF-606) and a Cushcraft A27010S at the top.

I'm thinking about a half wavelength spacing; ie:  about 9 feet between the
C-3 and the 6m and about 3 feet between the 6m and the 2m/70cm.  This means
I'd have around a 15 foot mast (or a little more).  Am I even in the right
ball park??  I trying to keep the interaction to a minimum and keep the
mast as short a practical.

Thanks. . .

Butch
K4SM


"A problem is an opportunity in work clothes."


*********************************
*  Marvin L. (Butch) Achterhof  *
*             K4SM              *
*        butcher@pinn.net       *
*      webmaster@usnst.org      *
*         K4SM@arrl.net         *
*********************************

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From dxdog@rcn.com  Thu Jun 28 04:03:21 2001
From: dxdog@rcn.com (Jerry Keller)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 23:03:21 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Telephone Poles??
Message-ID: <00f501c0ff7e$e406ffc0$04603bd0@z7r0l6>

Anyone have any experience using telephone poles as antenna supports?  Any
data available on what load they can carry unguyed? (35 foot pole with 6
feet in the ground) Any opinions?
Jerry K3MGT


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From SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net  Thu Jun 28 04:41:24 2001
From: SPELUNK.SUENO@prodigy.net (EUGENE  SMAR)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 23:41:24 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Trylon Tower Update #4 - No more hole in the yard.
Message-ID: <005f01c0ff84$4fd503a0$9976fc3f@spelunk.sueno>

TT:

     That tower ain't goin' NOWHERE!

     This afternoon Bill N3RR and Pat, my neighbor's son, came over to help
with the concrete.  After we waited for over two hours, the truck finally
arrived.  The best way to describe Roland, the driver, is jovial.  He walked
from the street into the back yard, looked up at the tree limbs forming an
archway between the street and the hole, and declared, "I'll back 'er right
in along side."  I didn't need the Georgia buggie I had rented (but they're
still charging me for the whole day anyway - the bandits!)

     My job was to hold the chute against the tower leg while the mud slid
into the hole.  Pat vibrated the mixture as it clumped at the bottom.  N3RR
oversaw the entire operation, because he'd done this a few times before, and
photographed Pat and me.

     When all was said and done, I ran out of concrete!  The hole was filled
just to grade level.  I didn't have enough to fill the cap (remember - the
cap is ten inches deep on the downhill side.)  Half an hour later a second
truck backed in along side the hole (The driver said, "If Roland can get in
here, so can I.")  with a yard and a half more concrete.  I could go on, but
suffice it to say that I now have a HOT block of ten and a half yards of
concrete, with a tower base stuck in the middle of it, curing in my back
yard (which has been  turned into an ugly mess, in case you were wondering.)

     I want to express my thanks to N3RR for giving his invaluable
assistance and expertise to the project today.

     I think I'll take some time off from tower work (and reporting on it).
Next update will be when the tower has been constructed and I receive the
final OK from the inspector.  Until then

73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F
P.S.  I'm sure glad I have room for only one tower on the property!


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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Thu Jun 28 03:36:31 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:36:31 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Roihn Guy Bracket GA25GD?
References: <fc.8246922.2865ef1c@aol.com> <3B34CA39.AE60070E@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <3B3A982F.38D72E3B@easystreet.com>

Hi Guys,

Rohn has once again, about a year or so ago, discontinued
the torque arms for the GA25GD
as well as the ones for use with the 45G and 55G towers. 
The torque arms have always
been sold separately from the guy attachment hardware, as
far as I can recall.  I don't
ever recall them saying they were not effective for taking
care of some of the torque we
hams feel when stopping and starting long boom Yagis . . .
but then they say a LOT of
stuff I don't hear . . .

What I DO KNOW is that Rohn is FAR more interested in the
problems of the commercial
uses of their towers than they are for ham uses.  I also
know that in order for a GA25GD
with torque bars to resist any significant amount of torque,
the tower actually has to
twist enough for the guy wires to tighten up and prevent
further twisting.  A little
twisting does not bother any ham applications that I know
of, but even a couple of
degrees of twist in a tower will throw a sidemounted
microwave dish WAY off so a GA25GD
with torque arms has little or no benefit for the commercial
dish user.  For fixing the
torquing problem for the commercial customers, Rohn
recommends the TA25 Torque Arm
Stabilizer which, you may recall, needs 6 guy wires at one
level where it is installed.
This REALLY takes care of tower torquing but not too many
hams use that method since it
requires 3 extra guys.

It would be interesting to make some twisting measurements
on a tower with and without
torque arms installed when starting and stopping a big beam
with about a 50 foot boom.
I have to believe there would be some difference but
probably not enough to satisfy any
commercial application problems.  I also believe that would
be enough to convince Rohn
to discontinue making them . . .  Hey, they discontinued
fold-overs and BX . . . who do
you think the major customers are for those towers . . .  ?

I think K7PN is going to make some "after market" torque
arms for 25, 45, and 55 when I
can get him to take the time to do it.  If it happens, I
will announce it here and watch
my web site:

http://www.reprise.com/antronics/default.asp

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

Kurt Andress wrote:

> K7LXC@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 6/22/01 8:45:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > K7NV@contesting.com writes:
> >
> > > This bracket doesn't do anything for torque.
> >
> >     You sure about this? I talked to the Rohn factory about this when they
> > discontinued and then started up again production of the long revered 'torque
> > arms'.
> >
> >     Hams had been using the torque arms for years and "knew" intuitively that
> > they contributed "something" to the torque resisitance of the tower. When
> > Rohn upgraded to a new TIA-222 rev (this was awhile ago so it might have been
> > Rev. C or D) and they ran the calcs, they found that the standard torque arms
> > didn't really contribute anything to tower torque resistance. They determined
> > that they were primarily useful for when the tower was climbed; hence the
> > "psychological help" they provided with little or no actual usefullness. Rohn
> > decided to convert over to the new design with the oval rings.
> >
> >     Well, hams hit the roof because "we've always used them, therefore they
> > must be useful" and Rohn resumed production of the old TA's in spite of their
> > marginal usefulness.
> >
> > Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
>
> Here's what I read in the posts I responded to Steve,
>
> Steve/n0tu wrote:
> >
> > I see Rohn recommends their guy assembly (GA25GD) accessory for attaching
> > guys to the tower.
>
> SNIP
>
> Richard Thorne wrote:
> >
> > Steve:
> >
> > Either will work, I've done it both ways.  I like the GA25GD attach method though.
>
> The Rohn catalogue I bought from you says:
>
> Guy Bracket
> GA25GD
> Mounts to tower at any tower at any horizontal brace.
>
> Torque bars
> TB25D (not shown)
> Optional for use with GA25GD
>
> Did either of those posts say anything about torque bars? Rohn is pretty clear that
> they aren't included in the GA25GD.
>
> I simply assumed those fellows meant what they said. I know I did.
>
> Now, that torque bars are part of the discussion, you seem to have covered it.
>
> --
> 73, Kurt, K7NV


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From rmurad@vento.com.br  Thu Jun 28 11:20:40 2001
From: rmurad@vento.com.br (Roger)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:20:40 -0300
Subject: [TowerTalk] Will FC-102 work with a Beverage?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010628071339.02bc8c40@pop-gw.vento.com.br>

Hi, all,

I need to build a Beverage antenna for 80 meters (CW freq.). I thought of 
buying the matching unit (model 180A) and the resistive load (model 185A) 
from ICE (http://personal.isla.net/ice/), but I'd prefer a faster 
alternative solution in order to avoid all those import procedures.

The resistive load (or an equivalent) can be purchased locally, so this 
part is easy. But, as I am in a hurry (want to try a rare DX on 80 m that's 
only possible on june to beginning of july), I don't want to build the 
matching box myself.

I have an old Yaesu FC-102 antenna tunner wich is still working quite 
nicely. It has a rear panel connection for wire antennae. The user manual 
does not even mention Beverages. My question is: can the FC-102 be used to 
replace the ICE matching unit (model 180A) for the beverage? Has anybody 
tried this yet?

Any information shared will be appreciated.
73, Roger - PY1OL


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From n2mg@contesting.com  Thu Jun 28 13:48:03 2001
From: n2mg@contesting.com (Mike Gilmer - N2MG)
Date: 28 Jun 2001 05:48:03 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] ICE website
Message-ID: <20010628124803.5907.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>

The ICE website seems NG.

http://www.inducomm.net

Does anyone know the status (did they move it, etc.)?

Tnx,
Mike N2MG

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 

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From molenda@buffnet.net  Thu Jun 28 14:38:45 2001
From: molenda@buffnet.net (molenda)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:38:45 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] telephone poles
Message-ID: <200106281342.JAA96408@buffnet4.buffnet.net>

Most all of our poles I am told are just about 40' here in Western New York
.  I am also told that there are contractors who work for the utility
company's who will install the pole for you.  I would be happy to learn more
on this idea    KB2HUK     John

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From jayt@arraysolutions.com  Thu Jun 28 17:00:55 2001
From: jayt@arraysolutions.com (JayTerleski)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 11:00:55 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: [CQ-Contest] ICE website
References: <20010628124803.5907.cpmta@c002.snv.cp.net>
Message-ID: <3B3B54B7.5E334FA1@home.com>

The site was hacked by a terrorist group.

It was not the official ICE web site.  It will probably not come back
up. Since it was severely trashed with their diatribe.

If you want parts from ICE please consider www.arraysolutions.com, we
have ICE at a small discount for hams. 

Jay, WX0B

Mike Gilmer - N2MG wrote:
> 
> The ICE website seems NG.
> 
> http://www.inducomm.net
> 
> Does anyone know the status (did they move it, etc.)?
> 
> Tnx,
> Mike N2MG
> 
> ________________________________________________
> PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart.
> http://www.peoplepc.com
> 
> --
> CQ-Contest on WWW:        http://lists.contesting.com/_cq-contest/
> Administrative requests:  cq-contest-REQUEST@contesting.com

-- 
Jay Terleski
Array Solutions - RME Filters
Phased Arrays - Horizontal and Vertical
RF Switches, Antennas & Towers
www.arraysolutions.com

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From aaron.hsu@unistudios.com  Thu Jun 28 18:34:30 2001
From: aaron.hsu@unistudios.com (Hsu, Aaron)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:34:30 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] RE:  ICE website
Message-ID: <C97F028E8BEBD111A52E00805FE67BAF0A71B85B@usintex16lax>

Industrial Communication Engineers, LTD. is doing fine.  Placed an order for the 419A 6-band bandpass filter and a some single band filters a couple of weeks ago.  It took a few phone calls to get by the busy signal (the main number works better than the 800), but I was eventually able to place the order with Mike.  He mentioned they were inundated with Field Day orders, but assured me that the filters would arrive before Field Day even if they had to send it by a next day service (shipping would still be the flat $6.00).  Sure enough, the filters arrived on Friday before Field Day via Express Mail.

According to Mike, the "inducomm.net" site is not run by I.C.E., but by an independent vendor.  I.C.E. is working on their own site and it might be up by the end of summer.  Until then, the best way is to call them.  ArraySolutions also carries the I.C.E. line, but I'm not sure if they're a "stocking" dealer.

73,

  - Aaron Hsu, KD6DAE
    [athsu]@unistudios.com
    [kd6dae]@arrl.net
    No-QRO Int'l #1,000,006
     . -..- - .-. .-   " .... . .- ...- -.-- "

p.s.  I.C.E.'s phone numbers are (Toll Free) 1-800-ICE-COMM, (MAIN) 317-545-5412, (FAX) 317-545-9645.


> ----------
> From: 	Mike Gilmer - N2MG[SMTP:n2mg@contesting.com]
> Sent: 	Thursday, June 28, 2001 5:48 AM
> To: 	cq-contest@contesting.com; towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: 	[TowerTalk] ICE website
> 
> The ICE website seems NG.
> 
> http://www.inducomm.net
> 
> Does anyone know the status (did they move it, etc.)?
> 
> Tnx,
> Mike N2MG
> 
> ________________________________________________
> PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
> http://www.peoplepc.com 
> 
> 

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From K4IA@aol.com  Thu Jun 28 19:00:27 2001
From: K4IA@aol.com (K4IA@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 14:00:27 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] EZNEC model templates
Message-ID: <9a.164be986.286ccabb@aol.com>

Can someone point me in the direction of a library of EZNEC sample files? I 
am just learning and it is a lot easier to tweak someone else's work than 
start from scratch.

73 

K4IA
Buck
Fredericksburg, Virginia USA
-------------------------------------------------
Want REAL CHEAP long distance service?
Tune to <A HREF="http://www/ld.net/?bucksavers">http://ld.net/?bucksavers</A>
-------------------------------------------------

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From joe.brown@gordmans.com  Thu Jun 28 19:45:00 2001
From: joe.brown@gordmans.com (Joe Brown)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 13:45:00 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] telephone poles
Message-ID: <236353578.24152970.4294641067@mailgate.gordmans.com>

I checked with our local power company / electrical contractors on this 
recently. They had 50 - 60 foot poles, free but you have to arrange to get 
them hauled to your home with someone other than the power company. Then 
found an electrical contractor that will plant the poles for $125 per hour.

I used a 45 foot pole w/ 7 feet in the ground for years with a 204BA on top, 
and worked fine, I would think you could go pretty heavy with the hardware on 
 top and get away with it.

73, Joe W0DB

 -----Original Message-----
From: molenda [mailto:molenda@buffnet.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 2:38 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com; Joe Brown
Subject: [TowerTalk] telephone poles



Most all of our poles I am told are just about 40' here in Western New York
.  I am also told that there are contractors who work for the utility
company's who will install the pole for you.  I would be happy to learn more
on this idea    KB2HUK     John

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From joe.brown@gordmans.com  Thu Jun 28 19:45:00 2001
From: joe.brown@gordmans.com (Joe Brown)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 13:45:00 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] telephone poles
Message-ID: <236353579.24153431.4294641067@mailgate.gordmans.com>

I checked with our local power company / electrical contractors on this 
recently. They had 50 - 60 foot poles, free but you have to arrange to get 
them hauled to your home with someone other than the power company. Then 
found an electrical contractor that will plant the poles for $125 per hour.

I used a 45 foot pole w/ 7 feet in the ground for years with a 204BA on top, 
and worked fine, I would think you could go pretty heavy with the hardware on 
 top and get away with it.

73, Joe W0DB

 -----Original Message-----
From: molenda [mailto:molenda@buffnet.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 2:38 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com; Joe Brown
Subject: [TowerTalk] telephone poles



Most all of our poles I am told are just about 40' here in Western New York
.  I am also told that there are contractors who work for the utility
company's who will install the pole for you.  I would be happy to learn more
on this idea    KB2HUK     John

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for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
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From w5kp@swbell.net  Fri Jun 29 02:26:59 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:26:59 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] The mast is here
Message-ID: <006301c1003a$9845d0e0$1d22c1cf@jkdesktop>

Guess I'll have to take back the poormouthing I did about my local tubing
supplier. He delivered a 2" x 23' piece of 3/16" wall 4130N Chrome moly
today for $125 including shipping from Chicago and tax. I was impressed. It
is truly incredible how stiff this stuff is for its relatively light weight.
It's not galvanized, of course, so now I have to investigate the
possibilities of doing that, but worst case is I have to clean it and paint
it inside and out. I hope I don't regret not going for the 1/4" wall, which
I could have had for about $7 per foot, but at a considerable penalty in
weight. I had to take pot luck on any length available between 19' and 26',
so am of course happy with the 23'. This will leave me with 13' inside the
45G, and about 10' sticking out (antennas at 1' and 5'), pretty much
negating any major worries about sideways rotor stress. All I have to worry
about now is will the 3/16" 4130N handle the load, and I'm pretty sure it
will. The extra 2 feet above the 75M dipole truss is for who knows what some
day.
Jerry W5KP



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From ag0n@arrl.net  Fri Jun 29 03:34:58 2001
From: ag0n@arrl.net (Gary McDuffie, Sr.)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:34:58 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] telephone poles
In-Reply-To: <236353579.24153431.4294641067@mailgate.gordmans.com>
References: <236353579.24153431.4294641067@mailgate.gordmans.com>
Message-ID: <q7qnjtgm5f1qn1bhqptrp7d2seshqhjb59@4ax.com>

On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 13:45:00 -0500, Joe Brown wrote:

> Then 
> found an electrical contractor that will plant the poles for $125 per hour.

Our REA only charges $40-45/hr.  Charged me $40 to plant my first 55
footer.  I've got three more to go, but don't have the time to get them
ready!  The poles were free pullouts, delivered by the people who pulled
them.

Gary

ag0n at arrl dot net
http://mcduffie.ws
-- 

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From n3rr@erols.com  Fri Jun 29 02:42:13 2001
From: n3rr@erols.com (Bill Hider)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 02:42:13 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] The mast is here
References: <006301c1003a$9845d0e0$1d22c1cf@jkdesktop>
Message-ID: <002b01c1003c$b8f0a160$36142c42@billspiii>

Jerry,

What's the yield strength as specified from the mill?  That's the
important number.  You will loose about 20% in yield strength due to
galvanizing.  You'll also gain about .010 in O.D. if the galvanizer meets
the
ASTM specs. That 10 thousandths of an inch could hurt you if you are
not careful.  It'll cost you another $100 or so also.  I doubt that it's
worth it to
galvanize it.  See below.

As far as painting it, I wouldn't go to that much trouble.  Just sand it,
spray it with zinc chromate
(outside and as far in as you can) and a coating of Brite Zinc (or other
good cold galv spray) on top of the zinc chromate.  Check my Website for the
product distributors I used.
http://www.erols.com/n3rr
Once it's been treated as above, if any rust appears it won't eat it too
far.  The
Chrome moly is quite resistant and will tend to form surface rust only.
I have a 19 foot Chrome moly 2" O.D x 3/16 in tk (120,000 # yield strength)
mast supporting
an EF 180C and a 155CA with 3 feet inside the tower and 16 feet
out of the tower from @ 134 ft. - 150 ft.  Lots of pics on my Website.

73,
Bill, N3RR


----- Original Message -----
From: J. Kincade <w5kp@swbell.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 2:26 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] The mast is here


> Guess I'll have to take back the poormouthing I did about my local tubing
> supplier. He delivered a 2" x 23' piece of 3/16" wall 4130N Chrome moly
> today for $125 including shipping from Chicago and tax. I was impressed.
It
> is truly incredible how stiff this stuff is for its relatively light
weight.
> It's not galvanized, of course, so now I have to investigate the
> possibilities of doing that, but worst case is I have to clean it and
paint
> it inside and out. I hope I don't regret not going for the 1/4" wall,
which
> I could have had for about $7 per foot, but at a considerable penalty in
> weight. I had to take pot luck on any length available between 19' and
26',
> so am of course happy with the 23'. This will leave me with 13' inside the
> 45G, and about 10' sticking out (antennas at 1' and 5'), pretty much
> negating any major worries about sideways rotor stress. All I have to
worry
> about now is will the 3/16" 4130N handle the load, and I'm pretty sure it
> will. The extra 2 feet above the 75M dipole truss is for who knows what
some
> day.
> Jerry W5KP
>
>
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
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>


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From rick258@home.com  Fri Jun 29 05:20:14 2001
From: rick258@home.com (Rick)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 23:20:14 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] ham antennas on cellular towers - experiences??
Message-ID: <3B3C01FE.D32A54C2@home.com>

posted for Tom - ac5tm
Please reply to: mailto:ac5tm@bellsouth.net

 I filed in my mind that someone sent out a web site for cell site
 information.  The club I belong to must come up with information
quickly
 because the owner of the property talking to a cell phone co on the
 thought of trading our tower for a new tower with cell equipment on it
along with
 our antennas(saves them a lot of zoning problems I think).

 I know about noise problems but would like to see a good agreement that
 someone is happy with. I would also like to hear from anyone not happy
 with a cell phone company.
 Thanks
 Tom AC5TM

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From ve6wz@home.com  Fri Jun 29 14:01:05 2001
From: ve6wz@home.com (VE6WZ)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 07:01:05 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] Lightning strike...help
Message-ID: <020301c1009b$8ea392a0$6701a8c0@cg.shawcable.net>

I took a lightning strike at 3:00 pm local time yesterday.  My wife
described it as an "explosion" and my daughter saw a "bright white and blue
light with orange balls" floating around in a room with no windows!!!
Scared the $#*& out of the cat. Minimal damage...looks like my ground works.

I have a US tower 89' heavy-duty motorized crank-up...it was cranked DOWN.
(motor still works ok)

 Inspection of the tower shows three distinct places along my mast where the
strike hit....these marks have a scratched look as though someone has taken
a wire brush to the mast and removed some metal....only a slight scorch/
discolored look.

Question: Should I consider my mast to be mechanically compromised ? I
assume that the galvanizing is gone at these places and may be prone to rust
now.
 Anyone out here with experience about this??  Obviously i need to have some
discussions with the Insurance company.

de Steve.



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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Fri Jun 29 14:11:02 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:11:02 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 7075-T6 Aluminum
Message-ID: <1010529091103.JAE25307@gate.iterated.com>

On 6/20/01 11:08 PM, J. Kincade at w5kp@swbell.net wrote:

>What are examples of other things out there commonly made
>from 7075-T6? 

Spacecraft.

>Surely tubing must be available made from this stuff - is it
>ridiculously expensive, a la titanium and such?

It is about twice as expensive as 6061-T6.



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Fri Jun 29 14:11:04 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:11:04 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Need help locating Rohn BXB 7-8
Message-ID: <1010529091106.JAF25307@gate.iterated.com>

On 6/20/01 10:40 AM, Ward Silver at hwardsil@WOLFENET.com wrote:

>
>The only problem I've had was that water got into the pipes (my fault) and
>had to be siphoned out.  Put a cap on the pipes or fill them with cement
>(after you put the bolts in).

Wouldn't it be better practice to place the pipes so they go through the 
concrete base and into 4-6" of gravel for drainage?

This is the typical practice for Rohn 25/45-type bases using either a 
base section or embedding a full-length section.



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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From mfarrer@tality.com  Fri Jun 29 14:20:13 2001
From: mfarrer@tality.com (Mel Farrer)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 06:20:13 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Need help locating Rohn BXB 7-8
Message-ID: <97A30A2BBA23D411842900D0B726125D616500@srvex03-sanjose.Cadence.COM>

Rohn recommends placing the bottom section of the tower, that has hollow
legs, into a 4 - 6 inch bed of loose gravel UNDER the concrete base to allow
drainage of any accumulated water.



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Coleman [mailto:aa4lr@arrl.net]
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 6:11 AM
To: Ward Silver; Brad Johnson
Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Need help locating Rohn BXB 7-8


On 6/20/01 10:40 AM, Ward Silver at hwardsil@WOLFENET.com wrote:

>
>The only problem I've had was that water got into the pipes (my fault) and
>had to be siphoned out.  Put a cap on the pipes or fill them with cement
>(after you put the bolts in).

Wouldn't it be better practice to place the pipes so they go through the 
concrete base and into 4-6" of gravel for drainage?

This is the typical practice for Rohn 25/45-type bases using either a 
base section or embedding a full-length section.



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
www.ChampionRadio.com</A>

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From epetek1@att.net  Fri Jun 29 15:44:23 2001
From: epetek1@att.net (epetek1@att.net)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:44:23 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cablevision cable
Message-ID: <20010629144425.USXJ1777.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net>

our local cable tv company has a direct burial cable- 
3/4" which is encased in what looks like about 1" orange 
protective sleeve- I am told it is used extensively for 
direct burial. I have had the 3/4" regular cable buried 
for several years without problem. I know there have 
been quite a few threads about TV cable use but I 
wondered whether anyone had experience with this 
particular product? Pete W2YG

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From alsopb@gloryroad.net  Fri Jun 29 15:45:57 2001
From: alsopb@gloryroad.net (alsopb)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:45:57 +0000
Subject: [TowerTalk] Need help locating Rohn BXB 7-8
References: <1010529091106.JAF25307@gate.iterated.com>
Message-ID: <3B3C94A5.9FCFD555@gloryroad.net>

This practice recommended by Rohn has me a bit puzzled.  Rebar in the
concrete has to stop 3" from the end of the concrete on all sides. 
The reason given is that they will rust, disintegrate and form a
cavity which weakens the base.  

I guess Rohn believes their towers legs never rust-- inside or
outside.

Is that true?  I agree with wanting to keep water out of the legs.

Also, if the water table rises above the base of the bed of rocks,
doesn't it guarantee water being in the tower legs?

73 de Brian/K3KO

Bill Coleman wrote:
> 
> On 6/20/01 10:40 AM, Ward Silver at hwardsil@WOLFENET.com wrote:
> 
> >
> >The only problem I've had was that water got into the pipes (my fault) and
> >had to be siphoned out.  Put a cap on the pipes or fill them with cement
> >(after you put the bolts in).
> 
> Wouldn't it be better practice to place the pipes so they go through the
> concrete base and into 4-6" of gravel for drainage?
> 
> This is the typical practice for Rohn 25/45-type bases using either a
> base section or embedding a full-length section.
> 
> Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
> Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
>             -- Wilbur Wright, 1901
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com

List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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From paulc@mediaone.net  Fri Jun 29 16:08:56 2001
From: paulc@mediaone.net (Paul Christensen)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:08:56 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cablevision cable
References: <20010629144425.USXJ1777.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <004101c100ad$862999a0$6401a8c0@tci.com>

In the cable-TV industry, 3/4-inch 75-ohm hard-line is referred to as "750"
owing to the 0.750-inch outside cable diameter.  Generally, direct-bury
cable-TV hard-line is "flooded" with silicone gel and is suitable for bury
without the use of a flexible conduit, although many systems may use both.

During the past four years, the majority of the U.S. cable-TV industry has
been upgrading and rebuilding its cable infrastructure in order to
accommodate the hybrid-fiber-coaxial (HFC) advanced digital services,
including high-speed Internet (HSD) and the new telephony-over-cable product
(DTS).  As part of the ongoing upgrade, much of the coaxial cable system is
replaced.  However, in the case of my company, all existing hard-line cables
are frequency swept and TDR-inspected in order to make the financial
decision of whether to replace the cable or retrofit existing cable into the
HFC design.  Cable that is replaced does not meet the TDR and sweep
requirements, which is generally a function of the age and surrounding
environment of the cable.  Typically, replaced cable TV hard-line is over
15-years old and some may be 25 years or older.  Aerial cable that is
installed near the coast lines is suspect and usually has a very short life
span.  I would never use this cable under any circumstances.  Flooded
direct-bury cable seems to withstand the soil conditions fairly well and may
make a good candidate for use at H.F. frequencies.  In any event, I would
first sweep and TDR any cable that was removed from existing cable TV plant.
It was replaced for a reason.

-Paul, W9AC

----- Original Message -----
From: <epetek1@att.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 10:44 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cablevision cable


> our local cable tv company has a direct burial cable-
> 3/4" which is encased in what looks like about 1" orange
> protective sleeve- I am told it is used extensively for
> direct burial. I have had the 3/4" regular cable buried
> for several years without problem. I know there have
> been quite a few threads about TV cable use but I
> wondered whether anyone had experience with this
> particular product? Pete W2YG
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
>


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From qcs0041@lexcominc.net  Fri Jun 29 15:57:01 2001
From: qcs0041@lexcominc.net (M K Miller)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:57:01 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Cablevision cable
References: <20010629144425.USXJ1777.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <3B3C973D.76614BB9@lexcominc.net>

Pete,
All of the orange jacketed cable that I 've seen used around here is fiber optic cable.
Perhaps someone else can advise if there is a non-fiber optic type with an orange
jacket.
73,
Kent-K4MK

epetek1@att.net wrote:

> our local cable tv company has a direct burial cable-
> 3/4" which is encased in what looks like about 1" orange
> protective sleeve- I am told it is used extensively for
> direct burial. I have had the 3/4" regular cable buried
> for several years without problem. I know there have
> been quite a few threads about TV cable use but I
> wondered whether anyone had experience with this
> particular product? Pete W2YG
>
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
>
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com


List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
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From mfarrer@tality.com  Fri Jun 29 16:15:40 2001
From: mfarrer@tality.com (Mel Farrer)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 08:15:40 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Need help locating Rohn BXB 7-8
Message-ID: <97A30A2BBA23D411842900D0B726125D616507@srvex03-sanjose.Cadence.COM>

According to the Rohn Drawing number B870725 for 25, 45, 55, 65 towers, They
depend on the galvanizing of the legs to protect the bottoms and inside of
the leg that is in the gravel, and at the depth the base is, 4 feet, your
are out of the normal environment freeze zone. Water that accumulates will
eventually drain out. The rebar is not galvanized and so they need to have
them inside the envelope of the concrete mass.   

-----Original Message-----
From: alsopb [mailto:alsopb@gloryroad.net]
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 7:46 AM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Need help locating Rohn BXB 7-8


This practice recommended by Rohn has me a bit puzzled.  Rebar in the
concrete has to stop 3" from the end of the concrete on all sides. 
The reason given is that they will rust, disintegrate and form a
cavity which weakens the base.  

I guess Rohn believes their towers legs never rust-- inside or
outside.

Is that true?  I agree with wanting to keep water out of the legs.

Also, if the water table rises above the base of the bed of rocks,
doesn't it guarantee water being in the tower legs?

73 de Brian/K3KO

Bill Coleman wrote:
> 
> On 6/20/01 10:40 AM, Ward Silver at hwardsil@WOLFENET.com wrote:
> 
> >
> >The only problem I've had was that water got into the pipes (my fault)
and
> >had to be siphoned out.  Put a cap on the pipes or fill them with cement
> >(after you put the bolts in).
> 
> Wouldn't it be better practice to place the pipes so they go through the
> concrete base and into 4-6" of gravel for drainage?
> 
> This is the typical practice for Rohn 25/45-type bases using either a
> base section or embedding a full-length section.
> 
> Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
> Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
>             -- Wilbur Wright, 1901
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call
us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up
to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com

List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A
HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
www.ChampionRadio.com</A>

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From kr7x@gte.net  Fri Jun 29 16:17:39 2001
From: kr7x@gte.net (Hank Lonberg)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 08:17:39 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Need help locating Rohn BXB 7-8
References: <1010529091106.JAF25307@gate.iterated.com> <3B3C94A5.9FCFD555@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <3B3C9C13.F2919D8E@gte.net>

Brian:

The 3" clearance is not a recommendation that did not initiated with
ROHN, it is a part of the ACI 318-99 Building Code for Concrete, which
is adopted by all the building codes in the United States. The  bars
when they rust will increase in diameter and cause the concrete to
crack.

Rohn's sections are galvanized and are more resistant to corrosion than
the mild bars. You can get rebar that is galvanized or epoxy coated but
the 3" still is the code requirement. I have put a lot of galvanized
handrail and other embedded items in industrial plants exposed to the
weather and other chemical enviroments and they tend to last a very long
time.

I agree that if the water table rises then there will be water in the
legs. Could be a problem if above the frost line. Frozen water in a
emebdded pipe can crack the concrete. 

Foundations are supposed to be set with the bottom at the frost line,
according to the building codes. For corrosion to take place you need
oxygen and water, the soil ph assumed to be neutral. IF the soil pH is
acidic then things get tricky.

For the normal structural life of amateur towers I don't see too many
problems with the practice of extending the legs into the base gravel.
You really shouldn't put a foundation in location where the water table
is at the surface anyway.

Hank / KR7X


alsopb wrote:
> 
> This practice recommended by Rohn has me a bit puzzled.  Rebar in the
> concrete has to stop 3" from the end of the concrete on all sides.
> The reason given is that they will rust, disintegrate and form a
> cavity which weakens the base.
> 
> I guess Rohn believes their towers legs never rust-- inside or
> outside.
> 
> Is that true?  I agree with wanting to keep water out of the legs.
> 
> Also, if the water table rises above the base of the bed of rocks,
> doesn't it guarantee water being in the tower legs?
> 
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
> 
> Bill Coleman wrote:
> >
> > On 6/20/01 10:40 AM, Ward Silver at hwardsil@WOLFENET.com wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >The only problem I've had was that water got into the pipes (my fault) and
> > >had to be siphoned out.  Put a cap on the pipes or fill them with cement
> > >(after you put the bolts in).
> >
> > Wouldn't it be better practice to place the pipes so they go through the
> > concrete base and into 4-6" of gravel for drainage?
> >
> > This is the typical practice for Rohn 25/45-type bases using either a
> > base section or embedding a full-length section.
> >
> > Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
> > Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
> >             -- Wilbur Wright, 1901
> >
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> >
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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From aa4lr@arrl.net  Fri Jun 29 17:12:54 2001
From: aa4lr@arrl.net (Bill Coleman)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:12:54 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Need help locating Rohn BXB 7-8
Message-ID: <1010529121255.MAA08813@gate.iterated.com>

On 6/29/01 10:45 AM, alsopb at alsopb@gloryroad.net wrote:

>This practice recommended by Rohn has me a bit puzzled.  Rebar in the
>concrete has to stop 3" from the end of the concrete on all sides. 
>The reason given is that they will rust, disintegrate and form a
>cavity which weakens the base.  

Rebar is not galvanized. Rebar is a really low-quality steel.

But it forms an important part of the foundation, so rebar is important. 
Without it, concrete isn't that strong, and will prone to crack and 
disintegrate. 

>I guess Rohn believes their towers legs never rust-- inside or
>outside.

If you leave the tower legs full of water -- you are guaranteed to get 
rust.

>Is that true?  I agree with wanting to keep water out of the legs.
>
>Also, if the water table rises above the base of the bed of rocks,
>doesn't it guarantee water being in the tower legs?

If the ends of the tower are sealed in concrete, water will build up 
(through condensation), until it fills the tower section to the first 
joint. This is likely to be above the base. Not good.

However, if some of the bottom few inches of tower sticking out of the 
concrete bottom rusts -- does it really matter?

It ain't gonna last forever. But, if installed according to Rohn's 
guidelines, it ought to last decades.


Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL        Mail: aa4lr@arrl.net
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901


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From w5kp@swbell.net  Fri Jun 29 19:00:56 2001
From: w5kp@swbell.net (J. Kincade)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:00:56 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Mast supplier
Message-ID: <007501c100c5$72aa3840$c821c1cf@jkdesktop>

Well, I've had enough requests for the name/phone of the distributor I
bought the mast from that I guess I should post it. Please be advised that
I'm posting the info without his knowledge, and I have no idea if he's
interested in or even capable of shipping tubing all over the U.S. Do not
ask for galvanizing, it's not available in the OKC area. Tulsa has the
nearest large-tank hot galvanizing facility. I suspect I got my good deal
mainly because he had a big flatbed load of tubing of other kinds coming
from his source mill in Chicago anyway, and they were willing to throw my
mast in with it. Otherwise, the shipping costs would probably have been
prohibitive. As an example, another distributor here offered to get me a
20-footer from his mill in California for $567 delivered here. I passed on
that one. Clearly, the truck freight charge is the hangup, so most people
would probably be better off trying to work the same deal I did here, but
with a distributor in their own locality. Shipping one piece gets reasonable
only if it can be added to a truckload order of other steel that's coming
anyway. So if you are willing to wait for your item to be included as part
of a larger shipment, then maybe it gets doable. Here goes:

Special Metals, Inc.
6406 South Eastern
Oklahoma City, OK 73149
Sales: Joe Varva
800-727-7177

I hope Joe doesn't take out a contract on me for doing this... I just about
gave him hives before he finally located and obtained this mast for me.  :-)

73, Jerry W5KP



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From n9iww2@verizon.net  Fri Jun 29 19:26:16 2001
From: n9iww2@verizon.net (Kevin Adam, Webz By design)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:26:16 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Mast supplier
In-Reply-To: <007501c100c5$72aa3840$c821c1cf@jkdesktop>
Message-ID: <001001c100c8$fd99aa50$13a60304@n9iww>


I  Have posted the information on mast supplier @ the Fort Wayne Radio
Club  Links Page. 73 N9IWW Webmaster For The Club. Thank you To All.
Http://www.fortwayneradioclub.org/links


N9IWW
Kevin Adam
1239 W. Till Rd.
Fort Wayne IN. 46825
219-490-7312
http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
n9iww@mail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of J. Kincade
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 1:01 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Mast supplier

Well, I've had enough requests for the name/phone of the distributor I
bought the mast from that I guess I should post it. Please be advised
that
I'm posting the info without his knowledge, and I have no idea if he's
interested in or even capable of shipping tubing all over the U.S. Do
not
ask for galvanizing, it's not available in the OKC area. Tulsa has the
nearest large-tank hot galvanizing facility. I suspect I got my good
deal
mainly because he had a big flatbed load of tubing of other kinds coming
from his source mill in Chicago anyway, and they were willing to throw
my
mast in with it. Otherwise, the shipping costs would probably have been
prohibitive. As an example, another distributor here offered to get me a
20-footer from his mill in California for $567 delivered here. I passed
on
that one. Clearly, the truck freight charge is the hangup, so most
people
would probably be better off trying to work the same deal I did here,
but
with a distributor in their own locality. Shipping one piece gets
reasonable
only if it can be added to a truckload order of other steel that's
coming
anyway. So if you are willing to wait for your item to be included as
part
of a larger shipment, then maybe it gets doable. Here goes:

Special Metals, Inc.
6406 South Eastern
Oklahoma City, OK 73149
Sales: Joe Varva
800-727-7177

I hope Joe doesn't take out a contract on me for doing this... I just
about
gave him hives before he finally located and obtained this mast for me.
:-)

73, Jerry W5KP



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to
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From w7ni@easystreet.com  Fri Jun 29 19:42:36 2001
From: w7ni@easystreet.com (Stan or Patricia Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:42:36 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Need help locating Rohn BXB 7-8
References: <1010529091106.JAF25307@gate.iterated.com> <3B3C94A5.9FCFD555@gloryroad.net>
Message-ID: <3B3CCC1C.2BA7C3A3@easystreet.com>

Hi Brian,

I have heard some of the same things you have heard about rebar cages but I can't actually
say I have ever read this stuff in any Rohn book I have seen.  I may have read the stuff
about keeping the rebar 3 inches from the edges of the concrete . . .   Part of it makes
some sense since rebar is never galvanized (as far as I know) and Rohn tower legs are
galvanized, which should make a rather large difference in how fast they deteriorate due
to rusting.  There are a lot of rumors and hear-say about what Rohn says or does not say.
I guess if I wanted to take Rohn's advice on something, I would either want to see it in
writing in one of their books or hear it, first-hand, from one of their engineers on the
phone.  Hear-say and second-hand quotes from Rohn are not really very dependable . . .  I
like to quote the page number of the Rohn book for anything I get out of that source so
you could look it up yourself to verify its accuracy.  In some cases, Rohn simply won't
put some of their advice in writing so second-hand quoting is the only way to pass on the
info . . . just make sure the secondary source is a reliable one, if you can.

If the rebar really rusts away inside the base, I would worry much more about the loss in
strength by not having the steel in there anymore than I would about any void it might
leave.

The major reason for keeping water out of the legs is not to keep them from rusting
(although that's not a bad reason) but to prevent the legs from splitting like frozen
water pipes if the water freezes in them.  I KNOW this happens . . . I have seen it.  What
I don't know is what happens in an area with a very high water table that is also very
cold in the winter . . .  Could the tower legs freeze and split below the ground surface
where the problem would be invisible to anyone inspecting the tower for safety?  I rather
doubt this would happen . . .  It  seems to me, it would be similar to tossing a piece of
pipe in a pond that you expect to freeze solid.  If it froze solid and then thawed, would
the pipe be split?  I suspect it would not because the pipe, in that case, would be
experiencing freezing water both inside and outside the pipe at the same time.  The frozen
water surrounding the outside of the pipe may prevent it from splitting.  Maybe this is
how it would work with water inside (and outside) of tower legs due to a high water
table.  But then, this is only my "intuitive feeling" for how this might work, and I am
very suspicious of my "intuition" in cases like this . . . !

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

alsopb wrote:

> This practice recommended by Rohn has me a bit puzzled.  Rebar in the
> concrete has to stop 3" from the end of the concrete on all sides.
> The reason given is that they will rust, disintegrate and form a
> cavity which weakens the base.
>
> I guess Rohn believes their towers legs never rust-- inside or
> outside.
>
> Is that true?  I agree with wanting to keep water out of the legs.
>
> Also, if the water table rises above the base of the bed of rocks,
> doesn't it guarantee water being in the tower legs?
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO


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From richmondp@home.com  Fri Jun 29 21:43:46 2001
From: richmondp@home.com (RichmondP)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:43:46 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40m 4 Square
Message-ID: <00f101c100dc$31e23d00$4e2eb518@speast1.tn.home.com>

Hello,

I am in the process of constructing a 40 meter four square and need advice.
What type of aluminum or pvc should I use to construct my vetricals and what
taper would the best to use.  The verticals will be approximately 35 feet
high.

Thanks,

Patrick, W4PV




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From k4sqr@juno.com  Fri Jun 29 23:29:15 2001
From: k4sqr@juno.com (k4sqr@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:29:15 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40m 4 Square
Message-ID: <20010629.182922.-16557087.0.K4SQR@juno.com>

Patrick;

Using  vertical formula of 234/7.000=33.4 feet
or 33 feet 4 & 5/8 inches. 33'4" will certainly be a good starting point
for 7.0.

Starting with 2" OD and going up the chart of smaller sizes, see the 6'
UPS shippable aluminum at www.texastowers.com  A 6" overlap is adequate
for 40 meters.

Using 1" cuts gives two "slots", then again perpendicular results in two
more. A stainless hose clamp tightens this joint very nicely. If in high
wind county, use a splice to obtain 12' of 2" diamter etc. and/or pin the
joints.

73,

Jim Miller, K4SQR
http://www.comteksystems.com
4-Square Experts, Stack Yagi
& Remote Antenna Switching Systems

 
On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:43:46 -0400 "RichmondP" <richmondp@home.com>
writes:
> Hello,
> 
> I am in the process of constructing a 40 meter four square and need 
> advice.
> What type of aluminum or pvc should I use to construct my vetricals 
> and what
> taper would the best to use.  The verticals will be approximately 35 
> feet
> high.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Patrick, W4PV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
> Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers 
> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
> FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> 

Jim Miller, K4SQR
http://www.comteksystems.com
4-Square Experts, Stack Yagi
& Remote Antenna Switching Systems

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From n4kg@juno.com  Sat Jun 30 01:03:30 2001
From: n4kg@juno.com (n4kg@juno.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:03:30 -0600
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40m 4 Square
Message-ID: <20010629.180337.-162793.4.N4KG@juno.com>

My friend NN4T had problems keeping his 40 ft top loaded
80M verticals up.  I suggested he use 2 inch diameter 6 ft long
sections with 1-7/8 couplers at each joint.  They were sufficiently
rigid yet light in weight that he was able to install them by himself
and has had no more problems with wind damage.  They are mounted
on pressure treated 4 X 4's  6?-7? ft out of the ground, hinged at the
base and trapped in a wooden gate at the top.  I'm sure a similar
solution would work for 40M, with possibly even smaller diameter
tubing, say 1.5 inches?

Tom  N4KG


On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:29:15 -0400 k4sqr@juno.com writes:
> Patrick;
> 
> Using  vertical formula of 234/7.000=33.4 feet
> or 33 feet 4 & 5/8 inches. 33'4" will certainly be a good starting 
> point
> for 7.0.
> 
> Starting with 2" OD and going up the chart of smaller sizes, see the 
> 6'
> UPS shippable aluminum at www.texastowers.com  A 6" overlap is 
> adequate
> for 40 meters.
> 
> Using 1" cuts gives two "slots", then again perpendicular results in 
> two
> more. A stainless hose clamp tightens this joint very nicely. If in 
> high
> wind county, use a splice to obtain 12' of 2" diamter etc. and/or 
> pin the
> joints.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Jim Miller, K4SQR
> http://www.comteksystems.com
> 4-Square Experts, Stack Yagi
> & Remote Antenna Switching Systems
> 
>  
> On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:43:46 -0400 "RichmondP" <richmondp@home.com>
> writes:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I am in the process of constructing a 40 meter four square and 
> need 
> > advice.
> > What type of aluminum or pvc should I use to construct my 
> vetricals 
> > and what
> > taper would the best to use.  The verticals will be approximately 
> 35 
> > feet
> > high.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Patrick, W4PV
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this 
> summer? 
> > Call us
> > for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting 
> towers 
> > - up to
> > 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> > HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> > www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> > 
> > -----
> > FAQ on WWW:               http://www.contesting.com/FAQ/towertalk
> > Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
> > Administrative requests:  towertalk-REQUEST@contesting.com
> > Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> > 
> 
> Jim Miller, K4SQR
> http://www.comteksystems.com
> 4-Square Experts, Stack Yagi
> & Remote Antenna Switching Systems
> 
> List Sponsor: Are you thinking about installing a tower this summer? 
> Call us
> for information on our fabulous Trylon Titan self-supporting towers 
> - up to
> 96-feet for less than $2000! at 888-833-3104 <A 
> HREF="http://www.ChampionRadio.com">
> www.ChampionRadio.com</A>
> 
> -----
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> Submissions:              towertalk@contesting.com
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> Problems:                 owner-towertalk@contesting.com
> 

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From K7LXC@aol.com  Sat Jun 30 00:39:59 2001
From: K7LXC@aol.com (K7LXC@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 19:39:59 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] Need help locating tower standards
Message-ID: <7e.171997df.286e6bcf@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/29/01 11:58:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
w7ni@easystreet.com writes:

> I have heard some of the same things you have heard about rebar cages but I 
> can't actually
>  say I have ever read this stuff in any Rohn book I have seen.  

    Actually Rohn doesn't have much to do with rebar and concrete standards. 
Every engineered tower comes with boilerplate requirements for rebar and 
concrete under something like "Foundation Notes - General". 

    The general notes invoke grades of rebar, rebar cage construction, 
minimum concrete strength, reference to building codes as well as industry 
and professional standards. 

    Rohn uses real general language like "customer's or installer's 
responsibility" and "secure the services of a local engineer". They set the 
standards for the base on up but not concrete and rebar. 

>  I may have read the stuff
>  about keeping the rebar 3 inches from the edges of the concrete . . .   
Part 
> of it makes
>  some sense since rebar is never galvanized (as far as I know) and Rohn 
tower 
> legs are
>  galvanized, which should make a rather large difference in how fast they 
> deteriorate due
>  to rusting.  There are a lot of rumors and hear-say about what Rohn says 
or 
> does not say.
>  I guess if I wanted to take Rohn's advice on something, I would either 
want 
> to see it in
>  writing in one of their books or hear it, first-hand, from one of their 
> engineers on the
>  phone.  Hear-say and second-hand quotes from Rohn are not really very 
> dependable . . .  I
>  like to quote the page number of the Rohn book for anything I get out of 
> that source so
>  you could look it up yourself to verify its accuracy.  In some cases, Rohn 
> simply won't
>  put some of their advice in writing so second-hand quoting is the only way 
> to pass on the
>  info . . . just make sure the secondary source is a reliable one, if you 
can.
> 
    When you install tower lights, Rohn doesn't provide all the necessary 
electrical instructions because they're covered somewhere else like the NEC. 
Same with everything except the tower structure; that's what you get from 
Rohn in a "general" catalog. 

    I guarantee you that you'll never talk to a Rohn engineer and likewise 
you'll get nothing from them in writing like what you're asking. One, they're 
too busy and two, it's unnecessary.
 
>  If the rebar really rusts away inside the base, I would worry much more 
> about the loss in
>  strength by not having the steel in there anymore than I would about any 
> void it might leave.

    If you read a recent post, the point was made that rebar expands as it 
rusts and would crack the concrete and it doesn't leave a void. I'm sure 
we've all seen old concrete hanging on to rusty pieces of rebar due to that 
very thing. The '3-inches from dirt' rule is a building code, not a Rohn 
spec. 

Cheers,    Steve    K7LXC
Tower Tech

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From K7GCO@aol.com  Sat Jun 30 01:04:07 2001
From: K7GCO@aol.com (K7GCO@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 20:04:07 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40M FD Antenna & CQ Article Reference
Message-ID: <29.16fbde4d.286e7177@aol.com>

                        Field Day or Base Antennas
     The Post below on 40M FD Antennas created a lot of response to me for 
which I appreciated.  In the July CQ p44 a "very timely article" appeared 
that "paralleled exactly" the very suggestion I gave.  It's called "A Large, 
Remote-Tuned Loop for HF DX" by R Stroud W9SR.  It used a fancy remote tuner 
also for 160-6M.  An open wire line 137' long into the shack into a Johnson 
Match Box would work just fine also except on 160M.  I've modified a Match 
Box with 2 toroid wound coils on each end of the 80M tank coil at right 
angles to the tank coil that could be shorted out with a knife switch and I 
paralleled a 100 uufd vacuum into fuse clips.  I use an open box on all my 
tuners and have no TVI even on 6M.  It can then be used 160-10M for this 
antenna.  I have a 6M only Match Box.  This antenna is what I call a "Tuned 
Log Periodic."  With a Match Box and if you can match the Z at the "end of 
the feedline," you can use it on "any frequency" in between the ham bands 
like for the SW bands to make use of the "progressive gain" and "lower angle" 
all around the loop as you use it progressively higher in frequency.  The SW 
BC stations really boom-in.  Before the Match Box it was very slow tuning up 
various antennas with plug in coils and switching between "Series and 
Parallel" before the Jones Micro-Match SWR Bridge and then out of the ham 
bands.  You had to keep data for each frequency.  I used a Grid Dipper and 
Antenna Scope (50 ohm RF Wheatstone Bridge) to get a 50,75,100 or a 300 ohm 
match.  Before that the Surplus Command Transmitters like the BC696 for 
80/75M and adjacent frequencies sometimes VFO modified and the BC-459 for 7-9 
MHz that I modified also for 20&15M using a buffer tube.  This provided a low 
power RF source with the variable link for quick tune ups using the 300 ohm, 
50 and 75 ohm "Twin Bulb SWR Indicator" I built right in a dielectric slot I 
carefully cut with a Pen knife in 50&75 ohm coax.  Before that you "tuned by 
ear dB's" out of the ham bands.  

There is no simpler way to get horizontally polarized gain on the low 
frequencies.  The author found DX routine on 40M and not unusual to open the 
band(s) with 135' on a side.  That is routine with great antennas.  With the 
270' per side model, DX could be a whole lot easier on 80/75M in particular 
at 100' high.  It's a great DX listening antenna with the mostly even 
patterns all around progressively higher in the band.  What a listening 
antenna for 6M DX--from all directions.  Are you getting the picture of what 
a great antenna is?  I don't recommend so-so antennas.  

In absence of light poles, 3 or 4 trees can usually be found on FD to throw a 
line over with the "Wrist Rocket."  Back in SD prior to 1956 I lived on main 
street and 300' from the railroad.  I used high elevators for 2 of the 
supports and regular light poles for the other 2.  I lived 600' from the ball 
diamond and used the poles in the winter time.  I was the pitcher for the 
Town Team and never even had to ask to use them hi.  Open wire line is a 
"great and inexpensive feedline."  You don't have to worry about feedline/SWR 
loss or antenna length and it's complex Z if you know how to use tuners that 
certain TTer's have problems with.  I haven't found a feedline load that 
couldn't be matched with a change of the number of turns in the link, tank 
coil or in a few cases a reversal of the Differential Variable Leads.  I had 
a dual switch that could switch in different lengths of feedline but the 
Match Box did way with that for all practical purposes.  Remember this:

"If you can match the Z at the end of the feedline, you will have 100 percent 
transfer of power to the antenna less the losses in the tuner and feedline.  
If the tuner coil is cold to the touch (with power turned off) you have a 
very efficient system.  No more TT coax loss charts are needed.  Coax is just 
an unbalanced fad Art Collins designed for using a Pi Network (just kidding). 
 The 50 ohm output rigs have created a huge antenna tuner market in the shack 
for coax but the coax still has progressively higher loss with SWR which is 
certainly negligible with open wire line.  Long Live Open Wire Line and the 
Johnson Match Box--With Modifications."  (Old K7GCO Axiom)
 
 The CQ article shows the E-plane and ground reflection patterns on all bands 
along with the very impressive and progressive gains and their angles.  His 
patterns are a bit different from mine as he fed it off center some.  The 
only TT Nit Picking that can be done is, it didn't show patterns for 17&12M 
but one could interpret them.  He installed 4 telephone poles that gave a 54' 
height.  They were quickly installed at $150/hr with no concrete in the 
ground expense or water on the legs to ever worry about.  I suggested in the 
previous post below for FD using the wide spaced baseball field or more 
available football field light poles for this very antenna only one size 
longer cut for 900 KHz.  The higher light poles would lower the CQ article 
angle data even more on 80-6M and would perhaps be a disadvantage on FD and 
SS contests (try different heights during the contest) but even better for 
DX.  It wouldn't be used in the BC band but the gains would be one more notch 
"progressively higher" on each higher band which is very useful on 160&80M if 
you can use 270' on a side +/-.  A 1 WL horizontal quad at Fo gives a "figure 
8 pattern" broadside and reflecting off the "reflector ground" really gives 
it a big "Jump Start" straight up and out and does a great dominating job 
locally and out a fair ways.  But at 2F (2 WL and longer) and higher in 
frequency, the free space pattern is "end fire" with 1.6 dBi free space gain 
and about 6.5 dBi at 50 degrees 54' high after ground reflections.  The 
270'/side version would have a similar end fire pattern on 160M which is very 
useful--gain on 160M.  The reflective gains increases progressively to a very 
high 15.27dBi and the angle lowers to about 5 degrees on 6M.  The authors 1st 
contact was on 6M with 5W with WP4O in Puerto Rico who could not even be 
heard on his trusty 5 element at 45'.  I worked 6M DX using a Harvey Wells 
TBS-50 on AM into a similar antenna.  Things like this happen when you have a 
great antenna with what I call the "K7GCO RF Clout."  Would you believe the 
angle is so low (in particular if mounted on 100' light poles and the "K7GCO 
2X" version is used) it kicks up dust--RF Dust that is.  You can see the RF 
Pattern in the RF Dust Devils.  

135' on a side (average) can be obtained in many locations using trees and 
I've used it as low as 20' with great results on 160 and 80/75M 3 years ago.  
In SD I ran it across the street to 2 trees just to keep my back yard clearer 
for 4 other antennas.  Review the article give this antenna a try.  The 
higher it is the better it works higher in frequency for DX.  K7GCO 

   In a message dated 6/26/01 8:36:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, n4kg@juno.com 
writes:
    << A current fed Long Wire is an OK antenna, but probably NOT at 20 ft.  
    There will be DEEP NULLS broadside to the wire and lesser nulls
    off the ends of the wire.
    
    I installed a 2L wire beam composed of an inverted VEE plus 
    Reflector with 150 degree apex angles and 21 ft of separation
    supported by a rope boom between two 50 ft high light poles
    for adjacent baseball fields.  The ends were tied off 200 ft from
    the center of the antenna.  This beam was aimed due NORTH
    from North Alabama (K4BFT 5A AL).  Performance was AMAZING -  
    we had W1's answering CQ's an hour before sunset and VE1,2,3,
    5,7, KL7, and even a few Europeans after dark.  With a single inv vee
    we usually work far fewer W1's and VE's.  For the West Coast,
    we use a vertically polarized Delta Loop which is usually about 
    6 dB stronger to W6 / 7 after 11 pm.  It was interesting to note
    that we still had many Tex, NM, Ariz, CA stations call after
    CQing on the 2L wire beam aimed North.  Some FL stations
    were somewhat weak but still called in and were worked off
    the back of the beam.  We have used this antenna for the last
    2 years and both times beat the 20 / 80 CW station for the first
    and second time.  Peak 10 QSO rate was 140, our best ever.
    
    BTW, we also used the 40M wire beam on 15M and worked all 
    over the country, jumping from W1/2 to W6/7 to W4. A 3/2 WL current
    fed Long Wire (e.g. 40M straight dipole used on 15M) has 6 lobes.
    If the ends are dropped SLIGHTLY (15 to 30 degrees), the nulls
    are filled in.  If the ends are dropped too much (45 degrees) it
    becomes much less effective.
    
    K4BFT  40 / 15 / 10 CW station results using 100W output:
    
    40M  CW  QSO's  738 2L40 Inv Vee + Vert Polarized Delta Loop
    15M  CW  QSO's  355   40M Inv Vee
    10M  CW  QSO's    15   40M Vertically polarized Delta Loop)
    
    Total station QSO's  1108 
    
    
    On Tue, 26 Jun 2001  EDT N4CW@aol.com writes:
    > Out of curiosity, what antennas were truly outstanding during Field 
    > Day this > year? I used a full-wave, fed a quarter wave from one end
    (up 20 
    > feet!) and  it performed "just okay", judging by how long it took me to
    get 
    > responses to  my CQ's.
    > You can E-mail your responses directly to me to save on bandwidth. 
    > 73, Bert N4CW (N4CW@AOL.COM)
    > 
  The inverted vee beam does indeed work very well.  In support of the the 
above report, some time after my first article on the inverted vee in 8/60 
QST, someone came out with a phasing box that would phase and match 2 similar 
inverted vees about .2 WL apart with separate coax feed.  You could reverse 
the pattern, adjusts for max gain or F/B or the 8JK configuration.  For 
someone in the Midwest this would be a great FD or anytime antenna to meet 
all the different conditions.  I used it on 160-40M and will use it again.    
 
  
  Another favorite "Hard Butt Kicker" for year around base use and for Field 
Day, I have used horizontally oriented quads on 160,80&40M .1-.2 WL high.  
Their vertical and broadside "figure 8" pattern uses the ground as a 
reflector to give the RF a "jump start" up to the reflecting medium in the 
sky and back down to the receiving antennas "Without Passing Monopoly Ground" 
again with very very good strength out to 3000 miles much to my surprise.  
The high angle pattern is fairly broad and the very low loss path seems to 
make up for reduction of gain at say 45 degrees.  I call it the "Slam Dunk 
Antenna."  There is a lot of signals on 40M all over the country on FD night 
on (also160&80), so a good signal is needed to work the East coast and 
Midwest from Seattle on 40M.  It's a great antenna locally 24 hours a day  
  
  I've used 100 ohm balanced coax into a Match Box for example on a 40M quad 
loop on 40,20,15&10M.  It's a great match on all 4 bands and fairly quiet 
also with balanced 100 ohms coax and the selectivity of a Match Box.  I've 
also used a 1/2 wave of 450 ohm open wire line cut for and Grid Dipped at 7.1 
MHz into the Match Box for all these bands and it repeats the quads Lo-Z at 
the end of the feedline which the Match Box matches on all bands--only if you 
try it.  
   
   An interesting concept occurs on 75M--not needing the Match Box.  The 40M 
quad loop is a 1/2 wave long on 80M presenting a very high Z at the balanced 
feedpoint.  It's a bit lower Z at about the right value if a 2 wire loop is 
used spaced about 6" to simulate a fatter dipole and the Z was about 4050 
ohms.  The open wire line is now a 1/4 wave long on 80/75M and inverts the 
Hi-Z to a Low Z.  Guess what the Lo-Z was?  Are you setting down?  It was 50 
ohms--I lucked out.  If it wasn't I'd have adjusted the spacing of the 2 wire 
quad loop so the Z there inverted down to 50 ohms.  I could also adjust the 
spacing of the open wire line to fine tune the Z seen at the end of the 
feedline--but I didn't have to.  Now using a technique I used in another 
application I hooked one wire to my IC-720 50 ohm input and the other lead to 
a 3 gang BC variable stator and the rotor/frame to the rig ground lug.  The 
variable has a plate bent over so that when it's closed it's shorted out.  As 
you go higher in frequency the inductive reactance reflected at the end of a 
1/4 wave feedline is canceled out by the right setting of the Xc depending 
what frequency you are on above the lower resonant frequency of the loop and 
open wire line--all the way to 4 MHz.  Resonant low and tune high.  The 
remaining Rt value doesn't change much all the way to 4 MHz allowing one to 
operate the entire 80/75M band-even with no tuner other than the BC 3 gang 
variable.  It's a great concept.  I've never tried a typical rigs tuner on 
this as when I first did this they didn't have them internally.  It works 
great even though it's a balanced feedline into an unbalanced xmiter output.  
If you talk to the RF it will behave.  
  
  The pattern and gain of a 40M loop in Eznec is hardly different on 80/75M 
than a 80/75M WL quad loop is on 75M.  So a 40M horizontally oriented loop 
operates on 80/75/40M with high/medium angle and on 20,15&10M end fire/low 
angle with progressive gain.  It's a great FD antenna.  There is more.  I 
struck a "RF Gold Mine."
   
  On 30,17&12 the 40M quad loop has a Hi-Z feed and the feedline is an odd 
number of 1/4 waves which inverts the 40M loops Hi-Z to a Lo-Z at the end of 
the feedline for the Match Box and easy matching.  When I get time I'll write 
this up with all the patterns and Z's.  There is more. 
   
  A lower frequency version does the same on 160&80/75M.  In SD 3 years ago I 
had a 75M horizontal quad 20' high over the street fed with a 1/2 wave of 600 
ohms Zo open wire line cut for 3.56 MHz into the Match Box.  This Match Box 
really gets a work out if you know how to use it.  It would put a 20/9 signal 
into Seattle on 75M running 100W.  That's not exactly high angle.
   
   On 160M a Match Box made just for 160M I'm sad to say--finally failed.  
Using a UnUn mobile toroid with Z steps all the way down to 6 ohms, I 
inserted it in one leg and it matched 1:1 at 17 ohms at 1.8 MHz and 23 ohms 
at 2 MHz.  That's too low for the Match Box.  I used my trusty 1936 BC 
variable once gain (everyone should have one) and it tuned out the reactance 
all the way to 2 MHz.  Now this is only the 2nd 160M antenna I've been able 
to "use across the entire band" with a low SWR to coax.  I calculated the 75M 
single wire quads Z on 160M at about 21,000 ohms.  The band width is very 
narrow due the 1247/1 Z step down ratio but it sure worked well at 20' high.  
I will make a "2 wire version" to decrease the Z to about 7000 ohms to give 
50 ohms using 600 ohm open wire line.  I have a model of this in Eznec.  
That's only a 144 ohm step Z down and should give much better bandwidth and 
no down step matching xformer is needed--just the BC variable.Xc.  Very 
simple indeed.  I calculated that a 1025 Zo open wire line would have matched 
the 21,000 ohms to 50 ohms.  Unfortunately the Zo of open wire line tends to 
top out at about 660 ohms with reasonable spacing wider than 6".    
   
  75M quad loop presents a Lo-Z on all bands now and a 1/2 wave open wire 
line cut and grid dipped for 3.562 MHz will be a 1/2 wave or multiples on all 
bands (close enough) reflecting the 1 WL quads Lo-Z at the end of the 
feedline for easy matching into most any tuner in particular with a "2 wire 
quad" to simulate larger diameter.  Unbalanced tuners can even be used with 
toroids on the coax.  This is a great FD or Base antenna.  Now this and the 
previous 40M quad only works if you actually try it.    
   
  I want to erect again a 1 WL horizontal quad loop hung between the baseball 
light poles at home in SD cut for 900KHz (292'/side).  It's not for the BC 
band but to have an "end fire pattern" on 160,80,40M with "progressive gain." 
 There are football fields with poles the right spacing that aren't used on 
FD (baseball fields will be) that would be absolutely great FD sites.  If the 
football field light poles aren't wide enough make it rectangle.  I'd like to 
take that new Yaesu 5W rig to Safeco Field with the big roof during a game 
and do some gamma matching with a tuner on 160,80,40M.  Big bridges are 
potential FD 160,80&40M antennas anytime as are water towers if there are no 
other RF Service antennas on it.  Those big cranes used in shipyards are 
potential antennas with some "creative feedline matching" using a tuner and a 
wire with a vice grip pliers to make a connection.  I'd like to try the Space 
Needle or the Narrows Bridge on 160M.  Awesome!  K7GCO
  

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From hankarn@pacbell.net  Sat Jun 30 01:10:38 2001
From: hankarn@pacbell.net (Dan)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:10:38 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] Need help locating tower standards
References: <7e.171997df.286e6bcf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B3D18FE.7A9D1626@pacbell.net>

Some where way in the back of my mind when I was working for concrete
contractor he stated that "FULLY ENCLOSED REBAR" rebar does nor rust in
concrete as it has to have Oxygen to oxidize i.e. rust. I have seen a
lot of broken up concrete bases, foundations walls and have yet to see
any major rust that causes it to go away. Some in old buildings many
years old. You keep worrying about this and your ulcers will kill you
before the rust even thinks about starting.

One of the big problems in tearing down OLD buildings is cutting up the
rebar or bending it to get it in the dump trucks to haul it off. Go take
time to look at the next demo job you drive by, Look for rusted rebar.

With a 40X glass you can pick the fly S--- out of the black pepper
 The drainage at the bottom of the open tubes is a DO IT ITEM. I put
about 6" os sand and then gravel then enough sand so the gravel can not
plug the bottom of the tubes.
HAve a customer with 79' R25G on the coast in Malibu that has been up
with a tilt base since 89. Replaced the TV antennas 2 times and the guys
once. Lot of high winds above Coral Canyon and heavy salt air with no
problems.

Have your great, great, great, great grandchildren look at it in 80 plus
years.

Hank
KN6DI

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From thompson@mindspring.com  Sat Jun 30 01:33:26 2001
From: thompson@mindspring.com (David L. Thompson)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 20:33:26 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40M FD Antenna
References: <2f.17013c39.286a635a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00ba01c100fc$47a77540$295a56d1@default>

Several clubs have  2el 40 meter beams and high (60'+) dipoles work well.
Years ago the old 135' center fed antenna
to a tuner work well for my club at the time.  We got one end up 75' and the
other up 52' with the feed point being about 60'.  Using a boatanchor
BW5100/51SB combo the rig worked very well on both CW and SSB.  I put it on
20 SSB for a few minutes and immediately drew a pile up.   Maybe QST could
include a column on the antennas used on one or two bands where a club ran
up a good score.
I'll ask....
73 Dave K4JRB


> Out of curiosity, what antennas were truly outstanding during Field Day
this
> year? I used a full-wave, fed a quarter wave from one end (up 20 feet!)
and
> it performed "just okay", judging by how long it took me to get responses
to
> my CQ's.
> You can E-mail your responses directly to me to save on bandwidth.
> 73, Bert N4CW (N4CW@AOL.COM)
>




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From kk9a@arrl.net  Sat Jun 30 02:59:44 2001
From: kk9a@arrl.net (kk9a@arrl.net)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 20:59:44 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] Lightning strike...help
Message-ID: <001201c10108$6d1a70a0$a95b70d1@kk9a>

My mast is very discolored from a lightning strike two years ago.
I've not experienced any corrosion problem.

73,
John

-----Original Message-----
From: VE6WZ
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Sent: 6/29/2001 8:01 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Lightning strike...help

I took a lightning strike at 3:00 pm local time yesterday.  My wife
described it as an "explosion" and my daughter saw a "bright white and
blue
light with orange balls" floating around in a room with no windows!!!
Scared the $#*& out of the cat. Minimal damage...looks like my ground
works.

I have a US tower 89' heavy-duty motorized crank-up...it was cranked
DOWN.
(motor still works ok)

 Inspection of the tower shows three distinct places along my mast where
the
strike hit....these marks have a scratched look as though someone has
taken
a wire brush to the mast and removed some metal....only a slight scorch/
discolored look.

Question: Should I consider my mast to be mechanically compromised ? I
assume that the galvanizing is gone at these places and may be prone to
rust
now.
 Anyone out here with experience about this??  Obviously i need to have
some
discussions with the Insurance company.

de Steve.



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From paule@sfu.ca  Sat Jun 30 05:20:31 2001
From: paule@sfu.ca (Paul Erickson)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 21:20:31 -0700
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40 meter FD antenna at VE7VCT
Message-ID: <3B3D538F.64233049@sfu.ca>

At VE7VCT this year, we used a relatively low (40-50 feet high)
V-beam. Legs were about 315' long, which was determined by the
landscape, and fed via 450ohm ladder line to a 4-1 balun, and
force fed with the internal antenna tuner.

Netted about 400 cw q's on 40, and was also used on 20 meters.
Given the number of JA's and asiatic Russians who called us
during the night, it seems reasonable to think that it played 
well.

Next year we will work on loading it on 15 meters to see how it
plays there also.
-- 
cheers, Paul - VA7NT (ex VE7CQK) - email: paule@sfu.ca

"Those who hear not the music, think the dancers mad..."

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From franknorton@home.com  Sat Jun 30 15:53:14 2001
From: franknorton@home.com (Frank Norton)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 10:53:14 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] VE6WZ & LIGHTNING STRIKE
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010630104336.00a20ec0@mail>

Hi Y'all,

Could some of the hams on the list with expertise about grounding systems, 
the effects of lightning on equipment post some remarks about Steve's 
question?  Or better yet the more general issue of lightning strikes.  It 
would sure be of interest to me.......and maybe some others!

Thanks for all the help you guys have provided as a community of hams.  God 
bless, and keep us all away from lightning too!

73 de,  Frank, kb8xu


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From n3dok@pgh.net  Sat Jun 30 16:52:22 2001
From: n3dok@pgh.net (Bob Ferrey, Jr.)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 11:52:22 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] Lightning strike...help
References: <020301c1009b$8ea392a0$6701a8c0@cg.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <3B3DF5B6.1060607@pgh.net>

Steve, To play it SAFE, Have a Registered Electrician inspect your 
electrical system of your house. I have herd of all kinds of damage in 
the walls to wires and outlets.
One fellow I know, The large drainpipe from the bath tub to the basement 
was damaged! The lead melted!

Bob N3DOK


> 
> Question: Should I consider my mast to be mechanically compromised ? I
> assume that the galvanizing is gone at these places and may be prone to rust
> now.
>  Anyone out here with experience about this??  Obviously i need to have some
> discussions with the Insurance company.
> 
> de Steve.
> 


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From KI7WX@aol.com  Sat Jun 30 21:06:09 2001
From: KI7WX@aol.com (KI7WX@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 16:06:09 EDT
Subject: [TowerTalk] FD 40M Beams
Message-ID: <96.1653606b.286f8b32@aol.com>


Most of you know that the 40M yagi I referenced in reply to N4CWs FD query was not a FD installation.  We played around with a 2D operation from W6EEN, handed out some Qs, and had a general good time.

For those interested in nice antennas, K6XC has put up a few photos on his website.  I took these shots a few years ago after CQP. The scans are a little dark, but it was a very nice post contest night with the sun setting, the moon rising rapidly, and a fellow in a hot air balloon taking to the skys.

http://home.earthlink.net/~rluttringer/pictures.html

N6RT has some of these shots, and a few of his own at: www.qsl.net/n6rt/   Scroll down to the W6EEN Photo Album.

Cheers,

Mark
Ki7wx


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From ve6yc@home.com  Sat Jun 30 20:04:39 2001
From: ve6yc@home.com (Peter Larsen)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 20:04:39 +0100
Subject: [TowerTalk] VE6WZ & LIGHTNING STRIKE
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010630104336.00a20ec0@mail>
Message-ID: <3B3E22C7.E17D3B67@home.com>

Well, you asked for it:
I have a ground mat at my place. I use 8 foot ground rods 
connected with #4 bare copper. From the base of my tower the
ground cables fan out like the spokes on a wheel. I prefer to
hook the rods and runs in parallel rather than series.
I have a 72 foot tower with 12 feet of mast above the top
bearing.
I took a small El Com type of ground rod and mounted it at the
top
of the mast. There is a physical law that states there is a
maximum
voltage per square inch (sorry I don't remember the law, some
thing
to do with "skin effect") So having a small point at the top of
your 
mast reduces the maximum voltage to the point where the stepped 
leader can't start. With no stepped leader there should be no
lightning strike. 
If there is a lightning strike then with a good ground grid under
your tower you should have enough "drain" to save you from
damage.

Some of my neighbors claim that my tower has taken lightning 
hits, but I haven't seen any damage, yet =:-).

I do know that the 48 foot street light out side of my house 
did get hit, and my tower was missed.

BTW I have about 10 8' ground rods and 4 ground plates covering
my back and side yards, plus about 300+ feet of bare copper.

If you are planning on improving your grounding remember to
place you rods 2x their length apart. 16 feet for 8 foot rods.    
-- 
 Peter J. Larsen
 

> Is there another word for synonym?
http://members.home.net/ve6yc

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From n3ue@arrl.net  Sat Jun 30 22:58:13 2001
From: n3ue@arrl.net (Ed Wolf)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 17:58:13 -0400
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
In-Reply-To: <007001c10277$8684d2e0$7da2fea9@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJILFGLMCOLGHAFODKEDHCGAA.n3ue@arrl.net>

I used the winch from "superwinch"
Whatever you use, IT HAS to have the braking capability to hold the
tower UP! You will be hard pressed to find any mfgr. to give the
complete specs/details if you tell them what you want it for.
Liabilities and all that. there is descriptions and pics on my web site.
Hope? it helps?


Ed Wolf - ars:N3UE - NA40+TR.PA
http://members.home.net/wolfie132/
http://www.breezeshooters.net
http://www.breezeshooters.com


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of K7HPH
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 5:48 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch


I have been looking for an AC winch to drive my HDX-555 Crank Up. Aside from
the $1,500.00 US Tower Solution, I have seen an AC winch advertised in the
Glen Martin Engineering Catalog that looks like it might do the job.  The
cost is under $600.00 and the 4000 lb capacity should be adequate for the
HDX-555. The problem that I am having is that whenever  I request detailed
specs and mounting dimensions from GM, I only get capacity and cost; which
is what the catalog already shows. Does anyone on the reflector know the
details of this winch? Did Glen Martin have it at Dayton this year? I would
be interested in getting additional information if it is available.

Thanks for the help. 73, Mark...



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From n9iww2@verizon.net  Sat Jun 30 23:57:15 2001
From: n9iww2@verizon.net (Kevin Adam, Webz By design)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 17:57:15 -0500
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJILFGLMCOLGHAFODKEDHCGAA.n3ue@arrl.net>
Message-ID: <000701c101b8$01f7c5b0$13a60304@n9iww>

WW Grainger has one that is used on the hygain tower I believe it sells
for around 299.00 go grainger.com check LD winch I know if want to
replace mine that is where I can get it.


N9IWW
Kevin Adam
1239 W. Till Rd.
Fort Wayne IN. 46825
219-490-7312
http://www.fortwayneradioclub.net/n9iww
n9iww@mail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ed Wolf
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 4:58 PM
To: K7HPH; TowerTalk
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch

I used the winch from "superwinch"
Whatever you use, IT HAS to have the braking capability to hold the
tower UP! You will be hard pressed to find any mfgr. to give the
complete specs/details if you tell them what you want it for.
Liabilities and all that. there is descriptions and pics on my web site.
Hope? it helps?


Ed Wolf - ars:N3UE - NA40+TR.PA
http://members.home.net/wolfie132/
http://www.breezeshooters.net
http://www.breezeshooters.com


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-towertalk@contesting.com
[mailto:owner-towertalk@contesting.com]On Behalf Of K7HPH
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 5:48 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] 120V AC Electric Winch


I have been looking for an AC winch to drive my HDX-555 Crank Up. Aside
from
the $1,500.00 US Tower Solution, I have seen an AC winch advertised in
the
Glen Martin Engineering Catalog that looks like it might do the job.
The
cost is under $600.00 and the 4000 lb capacity should be adequate for
the
HDX-555. The problem that I am having is that whenever  I request
detailed
specs and mounting dimensions from GM, I only get capacity and cost;
which
is what the catalog already shows. Does anyone on the reflector know the
details of this winch? Did Glen Martin have it at Dayton this year? I
would
be interested in getting additional information if it is available.

Thanks for the help. 73, Mark...



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to
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