[Towertalk] Misinformation - Misrepresentation - Missing the boat

[Jim White]

Having worked in sales and purchasing all my business life I can say that
there is something which appears to be missing time and time again in these
posts...

The relationship between the customer and the vendor....

As a buyer I cultivate relationships with my suppliers...there are times
when I will need something small or requiring special attention and they are
well within their right to charge a service charge but they waive
this...why?  Because of the other voluminous business I do with them.

WC4H correctly points out that until the ENTIRE order is known something
like waiving a service charge cannot be a given!

Every sales has costs as was well illustrated by W8JI on the "empty
box"....using that information....is the purchase of one bolt going to lead
to profits that will cover the "empty box cost"...HELL NO!

If you do repeated business with a vendor, and it amounts to enough that he
knows you by name when you call...then you have entered into a business
relationship.  If you are just dialing 800 numbers to find the cheapest
price then you are not are nothing more than an address and a VISA number.

Business relationships are kinda like contesting - I know some friends
overseas make an effort to call me in a contest because they are
friends..some of them in  rare places.  We have a relationship, more than
five nine five.

A small sale is a small sale - in order to fulfill it a business must NOT
lose money on it when Joe "800" number shopper calls around....now a repeat
customer that has bought in the past where his business has allowed the
vendor to show some real profit he might just find that charge waived as a
good will business gesture.

Of course some people don't know about these things because they are rude
and want the cheapest price - they do not have relationships - they treat
their vendors like condoms - use them and then throw them out


ME
ME
ME
ME


In doing so, these same people unfortunately brought about the end of your
local ham store....local hardware store...pick a business...if its only
about price then you never learn what service is.

Mr. Me probably doesn't get much customer service...he also probably gets
bent over on occasion, why - he doesn't have a relationship - he gets that
warm feeling - someone should tell him its the mutt that just pee'd on his
leg!

Business relationships benefit both the buyer and the seller, if you treat
your vendor like a whore expect to be treated like a sleezeball back.

Sound like a marriage - a good business relationship is!

73,

Jim, K4OJ


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Shohet" <kq2m@mags.net>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 11:54 AM
Subject: [Towertalk] Charges and disclosure


> Carl,
>
> I order via phone and only when speaking to a real person.  They can tell
> you the handling part of the charge.  I am not complaining about being
> charged the actual shipping costs - the vendor has no control over what
> UPS/Fedex, etc. charges.
>
> I am talking about the vendor added "handling" charge.  And yes, they DO
> know what that is ahead of time the same way they DO know what the item
> charge is.  They already know their markup on each item, their overhead,
> etc.  They certainly know the handling charge too.
>
> Just like they  add up the advertised cost of the items to figure out the
> "parts" charge, they can do the same thing with "handling" charges.  That
IS
> within their knowledge and control and thy CAN post that next to their
> price, or better still, include it in their price.
>
> > Most systems on the web cannot  calculate the handling charge until the
> > entire order is placed, unless it's a fixed charge per item.  If the
> charge
> > is based on weight, size, etc., it can not be calculated until the order
> is
> > complete.  I host a few web sites and I have tested at least 20
different
> > shopping cart systems, and this is how they function.  If they
> recalculated
> > the charge after every item you bought, then the complaint would be that
> it
> > was too slow and the question would be: "Why doesn't it just calculate
the
> S
> > & H at then end? I know I have to pay it, so why waste my time."
> >
> > Furthermore, if it's UPS, or USPS, there's no mystery since they have
> > published rates on their respective web sites.
>
> Agreed - but the actual shipping costs are not what I was talking about -
I
> am talking about the "extra" that gets added to the the actual shipping
> costs.
>
> > Any consumer that has ordered anything over the web, by catalogue, or by
> > phone is aware of S & H !  If they are not, they are not paying
attention.
> > Consumer beware and aware is not just a slogan.
>
> Shipping yes, handling NO! unless it is disclosed.  Some companies charge
> actual shipping costs, some charge actual shipping PLUS, and some charge
> actual shipping PLUS and THEN add a handling component ALSO!  So what does
> "S & H" mean?  It doesn't tell us anything useful by itself.  In short, it
> doesn't tell us IN ADVANCE, whether XYZ Radio will charge us $13 of  $27
or
> $41!
>
> > As for disclosure, I always see some note that says "Plus S & H".  While
> it
> > may make for a point of discussion on a reflector, the truth of the
matter
> > is that every ham that has ever ordered anything for delivery is aware
if
> > there will be an S&H charge, how much it will be, and the effect to
TOTAL
> > price.
>
> NO!  We DON'T know what it will be unless and until it is disclosed.
>
> > The same Hams (me included) that moan and groan about paying too much
for
> > shipping are the very same ones that would be up in arms if the price
was
> > higher because the shipping costs where included.  We can't have it BOTH
> > WAYS!
>
> What do you mean both ways?  If the item cost $1 and the S & H is $11 or
the
> item is $1 and the S & H is $11, THE COST IS IDENTICAL!  THE PRICE IS THE
> SAME $12!
>
> > My approach is like this:
> > If it's a MAJOR item like a Radio, Tower, etc.,  where shipping can get
> > costly when coupled with the insurance, I shop for the best TOTAL
PRICE..
> > That is, price + taxes + plus S&H + insurance.
>
> Of course, but why have to waste time "ordering" each item to get the
> complete price, instead of ALL the VENDOR charges as well as prices being
> prominently displayed?
>
> The vendor already knows what the item charge, the "handling" charge, and
> the sales tax is - so put it out there for all of us to see BEFORE we
> actually order!
>
> The answer is that not doing this results from some combination of
laziness,
> lack of responsibility, game-playing, indifference and in some cases -
> outright dishonesty.
>
> > As a CONSUMER, there's one true POWER that I have.  I do NOT HAVE TO BUY
> > FROM a VENDOR!
>
> Unfortunately this is NOT always true.  Many manufacturers will only sell
> their proprietary parts though a specific vendor, thereby creating a
> monopoly or quasi-monopoly.
>
> When enough people don't buy from a vendor, the vendor gets
> > the message and either adjusts or goes belly up.  Ham vendors know that
we
> > have one of the STRONGEST WORD OF MOUTH networks around.... it's
> WORLDWIDE!
> > They also know that we will use this for or against them according to
the
> > individual case.
>
> That is one of the greatest values of this reflector - so we can share
this
> information amongst ourselves for the benefit of all.
>
> In closing, please remember:
>
> DISCLOSURE - good for us and good for ethical vendors
>
> NON-DISCLOSURE (and or gouging) - BAD for us, good for unscrupulous
vendors
>
> BTW, as an example of what I mean by disclosure and good business
practice,
> whenever I ordered anything from Stan, W7NI, he always itemized everything
> and only charged actual shipping charges.
> There was NO nickel and diming, NO handling charge, etc.  Sure he didn't
> have the overhead that other companies have, but that would simply have
> given him room to charge even more than he did and still be the lowest
cost
> around by far.
>
> But he DID NOT do that either. Stan actually charged less than he could
have
> because he wanted to help us out too - not just make maximum profit.  VERY
> COOL!
>
> Stan if you did sell your business, it is all our loss.  I just hope that
> the person you sold it to cares as much as you did.  A big THANK YOU for
all
> your help and for being a great example of a fair-minded business owner
who
> was also open and honest about everything!
>
> 73
>
> Bob KQ2M
>
>
>
>
>
>  > 73
> > Carl
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert Shohet" <kq2m@mags.net>
> > To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> > Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 9:41 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Towertalk] Buying nuts and bolts - Rationalized gouging
> >
> >
> > > Hi Tom,
> > >
> > > > The out-the-door cost to ship an empty "free" box, when we did a
cost
> > > > analysis at Ameritron in the 80's, was over $4 in direct overhead
> > > > cost not including postage or shipping fees.
> > > >
> > > > I'm amazed we complain about any vendor trying to cover those costs,
> > > > and just break even.
> > >
> > > Several reasons we complain:
> > >
> > > 1) The price of the item is always advertised prominently but the
> > "handling"
> > > charge IS NOT!
> > > If the merchant was as proud of their handling charge as they were of
> > their
> > > product and price, they would ADVERTISE the handling charge just as
> > > prominently.
> > >
> > > The excuse that "My competitiors don't do it so I don't want to be at
a
> > > compeititve disadvantage" is a lame rationalization for the
> > non-disclosure.
> > >
> > > The truth is that people that charge handling charges generally don't
> want
> > > it known until the order is placed because they KNOW that few people
> will
> > > cancel their orders at that point.  Even better (for the vendor) is
when
> > the
> > > salesperson never discloses the actual handling charges and simply
lumps
> > it
> > > together with shipping on the bill and the first time that the unwary
> > > purchaser sees it is they get their charge card statement - at which
> point
> > > they are not going to go through the expense and hassle of returning
it!
> > >
> > > Yes, the purchaser SHOULD ask for the amount of the handling charge,
but
> > > more importantly, they shouldn't have to ask for it, it should be
> > disclosed
> > > and advertised prominently in advance.
> > >
> > > 2) The customer service in many companies absolutely stinks from order
> > > processing to shipping to billing, etc!  So now we the customer are
> being
> > > hit with a "surcharge" for inefficiency, lousy attitude and
> non-disclosure
> > > on the part of the company and its employees.  This would make almost
> > anyone
> > > angry.
> > >
> > > I would much rather face exorbitant part prices (which we already
> face) -
> > > which ARE obvious up front and make a decision on that basis, rather
> than
> > > play this guessing game of handling charge non-disclosure, which, to
me,
> > is
> > > dishonest and sleazy.  Even if it were disclosed, IMO, a separate
> handling
> > > chanrge is still gouging - but we don't need to revisit that thread.
> > >
> > > As far as overhead goes, every business has it.  It's part of the cost
> of
> > > doing business.
> > >
> > > 73
> > >
> > > Bob KQ2M
> > >
> > > > As for the price of parts? Anyone who sells anything to the
> > > > government is not allowed to sell the part for less to anyone else,
> > > > as was pointed out by others.
> > > >
> > > > I can buy an equivalent part from Motorola NOT sold to the military
> > > > for about $15 less than a similar part that is sold to the military.
> > > > 73, Tom W8JI
> > > > W8JI@contesting.com
> > > >
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