[Towertalk] Misinformation - Misrepresentation - Missing the boat
Carl - WC4H
wc4h@itis.net
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:53:36 -0400
To Jim's Point and without mentioning specific names:
1. I get a discount at my local hardware store! I buy the small stuff, but
when I needed new locks for the whole house, with one key mechanism, I gave
them the business. A fairly large sale by their standards. I make sure I
don't give all of my business to Home Depot.
2. I have called a manufacturer and asked them to please send a tube to a
friend who's amp was out of warranty. Because of my relationship with the
mfg, the tube was sent at no charge and, as I requested, my name was not
mentioned.
3. I have bought several antennas from the same place and have brought him
many customers. Do you think I get charged for a clamp or a small part?
4. The vendor I buy my most of my radios from knows me so well that he'll
ship a radio if I tell him the check is leaving today! The check & radio
cross paths.
These are strong vendor / customer friendships that I have developed over
many years. Quite frankly, I get special treatment from these folks and I
treat them as special.
73
Carl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim White" <k4oj@tampabay.rr.com>
To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 1:07 PM
Subject: [Towertalk] Misinformation - Misrepresentation - Missing the boat
> Having worked in sales and purchasing all my business life I can say that
> there is something which appears to be missing time and time again in
these
> posts...
>
> The relationship between the customer and the vendor....
>
> As a buyer I cultivate relationships with my suppliers...there are times
> when I will need something small or requiring special attention and they
are
> well within their right to charge a service charge but they waive
> this...why? Because of the other voluminous business I do with them.
>
> WC4H correctly points out that until the ENTIRE order is known something
> like waiving a service charge cannot be a given!
>
> Every sales has costs as was well illustrated by W8JI on the "empty
> box"....using that information....is the purchase of one bolt going to
lead
> to profits that will cover the "empty box cost"...HELL NO!
>
> If you do repeated business with a vendor, and it amounts to enough that
he
> knows you by name when you call...then you have entered into a business
> relationship. If you are just dialing 800 numbers to find the cheapest
> price then you are not are nothing more than an address and a VISA number.
>
> Business relationships are kinda like contesting - I know some friends
> overseas make an effort to call me in a contest because they are
> friends..some of them in rare places. We have a relationship, more than
> five nine five.
>
> A small sale is a small sale - in order to fulfill it a business must NOT
> lose money on it when Joe "800" number shopper calls around....now a
repeat
> customer that has bought in the past where his business has allowed the
> vendor to show some real profit he might just find that charge waived as a
> good will business gesture.
>
> Of course some people don't know about these things because they are rude
> and want the cheapest price - they do not have relationships - they treat
> their vendors like condoms - use them and then throw them out
>
>
> ME
> ME
> ME
> ME
>
>
> In doing so, these same people unfortunately brought about the end of your
> local ham store....local hardware store...pick a business...if its only
> about price then you never learn what service is.
>
> Mr. Me probably doesn't get much customer service...he also probably gets
> bent over on occasion, why - he doesn't have a relationship - he gets that
> warm feeling - someone should tell him its the mutt that just pee'd on his
> leg!
>
> Business relationships benefit both the buyer and the seller, if you treat
> your vendor like a whore expect to be treated like a sleezeball back.
>
> Sound like a marriage - a good business relationship is!
>
> 73,
>
> Jim, K4OJ
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Shohet" <kq2m@mags.net>
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 11:54 AM
> Subject: [Towertalk] Charges and disclosure
>
>
> > Carl,
> >
> > I order via phone and only when speaking to a real person. They can
tell
> > you the handling part of the charge. I am not complaining about being
> > charged the actual shipping costs - the vendor has no control over what
> > UPS/Fedex, etc. charges.
> >
> > I am talking about the vendor added "handling" charge. And yes, they DO
> > know what that is ahead of time the same way they DO know what the item
> > charge is. They already know their markup on each item, their overhead,
> > etc. They certainly know the handling charge too.
> >
> > Just like they add up the advertised cost of the items to figure out
the
> > "parts" charge, they can do the same thing with "handling" charges.
That
> IS
> > within their knowledge and control and thy CAN post that next to their
> > price, or better still, include it in their price.
> >
> > > Most systems on the web cannot calculate the handling charge until
the
> > > entire order is placed, unless it's a fixed charge per item. If the
> > charge
> > > is based on weight, size, etc., it can not be calculated until the
order
> > is
> > > complete. I host a few web sites and I have tested at least 20
> different
> > > shopping cart systems, and this is how they function. If they
> > recalculated
> > > the charge after every item you bought, then the complaint would be
that
> > it
> > > was too slow and the question would be: "Why doesn't it just calculate
> the
> > S
> > > & H at then end? I know I have to pay it, so why waste my time."
> > >
> > > Furthermore, if it's UPS, or USPS, there's no mystery since they have
> > > published rates on their respective web sites.
> >
> > Agreed - but the actual shipping costs are not what I was talking
about -
> I
> > am talking about the "extra" that gets added to the the actual shipping
> > costs.
> >
> > > Any consumer that has ordered anything over the web, by catalogue, or
by
> > > phone is aware of S & H ! If they are not, they are not paying
> attention.
> > > Consumer beware and aware is not just a slogan.
> >
> > Shipping yes, handling NO! unless it is disclosed. Some companies
charge
> > actual shipping costs, some charge actual shipping PLUS, and some charge
> > actual shipping PLUS and THEN add a handling component ALSO! So what
does
> > "S & H" mean? It doesn't tell us anything useful by itself. In short,
it
> > doesn't tell us IN ADVANCE, whether XYZ Radio will charge us $13 of $27
> or
> > $41!
> >
> > > As for disclosure, I always see some note that says "Plus S & H".
While
> > it
> > > may make for a point of discussion on a reflector, the truth of the
> matter
> > > is that every ham that has ever ordered anything for delivery is aware
> if
> > > there will be an S&H charge, how much it will be, and the effect to
> TOTAL
> > > price.
> >
> > NO! We DON'T know what it will be unless and until it is disclosed.
> >
> > > The same Hams (me included) that moan and groan about paying too much
> for
> > > shipping are the very same ones that would be up in arms if the price
> was
> > > higher because the shipping costs where included. We can't have it
BOTH
> > > WAYS!
> >
> > What do you mean both ways? If the item cost $1 and the S & H is $11 or
> the
> > item is $1 and the S & H is $11, THE COST IS IDENTICAL! THE PRICE IS
THE
> > SAME $12!
> >
> > > My approach is like this:
> > > If it's a MAJOR item like a Radio, Tower, etc., where shipping can
get
> > > costly when coupled with the insurance, I shop for the best TOTAL
> PRICE..
> > > That is, price + taxes + plus S&H + insurance.
> >
> > Of course, but why have to waste time "ordering" each item to get the
> > complete price, instead of ALL the VENDOR charges as well as prices
being
> > prominently displayed?
> >
> > The vendor already knows what the item charge, the "handling" charge,
and
> > the sales tax is - so put it out there for all of us to see BEFORE we
> > actually order!
> >
> > The answer is that not doing this results from some combination of
> laziness,
> > lack of responsibility, game-playing, indifference and in some cases -
> > outright dishonesty.
> >
> > > As a CONSUMER, there's one true POWER that I have. I do NOT HAVE TO
BUY
> > > FROM a VENDOR!
> >
> > Unfortunately this is NOT always true. Many manufacturers will only
sell
> > their proprietary parts though a specific vendor, thereby creating a
> > monopoly or quasi-monopoly.
> >
> > When enough people don't buy from a vendor, the vendor gets
> > > the message and either adjusts or goes belly up. Ham vendors know
that
> we
> > > have one of the STRONGEST WORD OF MOUTH networks around.... it's
> > WORLDWIDE!
> > > They also know that we will use this for or against them according to
> the
> > > individual case.
> >
> > That is one of the greatest values of this reflector - so we can share
> this
> > information amongst ourselves for the benefit of all.
> >
> > In closing, please remember:
> >
> > DISCLOSURE - good for us and good for ethical vendors
> >
> > NON-DISCLOSURE (and or gouging) - BAD for us, good for unscrupulous
> vendors
> >
> > BTW, as an example of what I mean by disclosure and good business
> practice,
> > whenever I ordered anything from Stan, W7NI, he always itemized
everything
> > and only charged actual shipping charges.
> > There was NO nickel and diming, NO handling charge, etc. Sure he didn't
> > have the overhead that other companies have, but that would simply have
> > given him room to charge even more than he did and still be the lowest
> cost
> > around by far.
> >
> > But he DID NOT do that either. Stan actually charged less than he could
> have
> > because he wanted to help us out too - not just make maximum profit.
VERY
> > COOL!
> >
> > Stan if you did sell your business, it is all our loss. I just hope
that
> > the person you sold it to cares as much as you did. A big THANK YOU for
> all
> > your help and for being a great example of a fair-minded business owner
> who
> > was also open and honest about everything!
> >
> > 73
> >
> > Bob KQ2M
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 73
> > > Carl
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Robert Shohet" <kq2m@mags.net>
> > > To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 9:41 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Towertalk] Buying nuts and bolts - Rationalized gouging
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Tom,
> > > >
> > > > > The out-the-door cost to ship an empty "free" box, when we did a
> cost
> > > > > analysis at Ameritron in the 80's, was over $4 in direct overhead
> > > > > cost not including postage or shipping fees.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm amazed we complain about any vendor trying to cover those
costs,
> > > > > and just break even.
> > > >
> > > > Several reasons we complain:
> > > >
> > > > 1) The price of the item is always advertised prominently but the
> > > "handling"
> > > > charge IS NOT!
> > > > If the merchant was as proud of their handling charge as they were
of
> > > their
> > > > product and price, they would ADVERTISE the handling charge just as
> > > > prominently.
> > > >
> > > > The excuse that "My competitiors don't do it so I don't want to be
at
> a
> > > > compeititve disadvantage" is a lame rationalization for the
> > > non-disclosure.
> > > >
> > > > The truth is that people that charge handling charges generally
don't
> > want
> > > > it known until the order is placed because they KNOW that few people
> > will
> > > > cancel their orders at that point. Even better (for the vendor) is
> when
> > > the
> > > > salesperson never discloses the actual handling charges and simply
> lumps
> > > it
> > > > together with shipping on the bill and the first time that the
unwary
> > > > purchaser sees it is they get their charge card statement - at which
> > point
> > > > they are not going to go through the expense and hassle of returning
> it!
> > > >
> > > > Yes, the purchaser SHOULD ask for the amount of the handling charge,
> but
> > > > more importantly, they shouldn't have to ask for it, it should be
> > > disclosed
> > > > and advertised prominently in advance.
> > > >
> > > > 2) The customer service in many companies absolutely stinks from
order
> > > > processing to shipping to billing, etc! So now we the customer are
> > being
> > > > hit with a "surcharge" for inefficiency, lousy attitude and
> > non-disclosure
> > > > on the part of the company and its employees. This would make
almost
> > > anyone
> > > > angry.
> > > >
> > > > I would much rather face exorbitant part prices (which we already
> > face) -
> > > > which ARE obvious up front and make a decision on that basis, rather
> > than
> > > > play this guessing game of handling charge non-disclosure, which, to
> me,
> > > is
> > > > dishonest and sleazy. Even if it were disclosed, IMO, a separate
> > handling
> > > > chanrge is still gouging - but we don't need to revisit that thread.
> > > >
> > > > As far as overhead goes, every business has it. It's part of the
cost
> > of
> > > > doing business.
> > > >
> > > > 73
> > > >
> > > > Bob KQ2M
> > > >
> > > > > As for the price of parts? Anyone who sells anything to the
> > > > > government is not allowed to sell the part for less to anyone
else,
> > > > > as was pointed out by others.
> > > > >
> > > > > I can buy an equivalent part from Motorola NOT sold to the
military
> > > > > for about $15 less than a similar part that is sold to the
military.
> > > > > 73, Tom W8JI
> > > > > W8JI@contesting.com
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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