[TowerTalk] Tower Wind Calcs

Thu Dec 11 17:58:47 EST 2003

Jim, Alan others

$250.00 is very cheap for what you want. For all the reasons Jim itemized
and many others $450.00 would have been my minimum fee estimate for the work
depending on the installation and other variables.

I am not licensed in Nevada though, so I suggest you call the state board of
engineering examiners for a list of small firms in Nevada and contact them.

73 and Regards

Hank Lonberg, P.E.,S.E. / KR7X
Lonberg Design Group, Ltd.

-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
[mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of hdmc38 at bellsouth.net
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 5:51 PM
To: Jim Lux; Alan C. Zack; TowerTalk at contesting.com
Cc: Las Vegas Radio Club
Subject: Re: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower Wind Calcs

Try to find an engineer that has worked in your jurisdiction before.The
process always seems to go smoother when the building department knows who
they are dealing with.I don't know if your going to pull the required
permits yourself[Owner Builder] or have a licensed contractor do it.Once
again the licensed contractor has the edge.He's been there before and should
know the routine.I would say $250.00 for a complete signed,sealed set of
plans is a very good price.Remember once they go in for review you may get
some comments back and have to submit some more information.In Florida you
don't have to show the calculations,just say that you meet them.These are
just some of the things you will need to do to secure proper permits.Make a
friend of one the clerks.They have the hardest job and take the most
abuse.They can also help you the most.I realize that you should be able to
do this yourself and I agree you should.Sometimes it's a whole lot easier to
work around the system than c
 harge straight ahead.Just my opinion.Please let us know how it works out.If
there is anything else I can help you with please ask.Hope this helps.

                   Joe Patrick KG4VBR
> 
> From: Jim Lux <jimlux at earthlink.net>
> Date: 2003/12/11 Thu PM 06:30:03 EST
> To: "Alan C. Zack" <k7acz at cox.net>,  TowerTalk at contesting.com
> CC: Las Vegas Radio Club <lvrac at yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower Wind Calcs
> 
> At 02:43 PM 12/11/2003 -0800, Alan C. Zack wrote:
> >I wonder if anyone would be kind enough to please point me in the
> >right direction to find the method of obtaining a Wind CALC
> >(calculation) for a tower project to satisfy my Building Department
> >I am ready to purchase a U.S. Tower's MA-40/MAF-40/MAB-40 combination
> >crank-up, fold over tubular tower.  I downloaded the Pier Footing
> >(base) installation drawing for this tower from the U.S. Tower's web
> >site and took it to my Henderson, NV, Building Department.  The
> >Building Dept approved my tower and said the drawing was fine, EXCEPT,
> >I needed a Nevada P.E. wet stamp on it (it has a CA PE stamp) and I
> >also need a 90 MPH Wind CALC.
> 
> And a darn good thing, too... There's a reason why states require P.E.s 
> licensed in that state... the rules are different in every state, and
there 
> is a certain amount of local knowledge involved in some areas
(foundations, 
> etc.)  For instance, I wouldn't necessarily expect a PE in South Dakota to

> know all about seismic loads and the geotechnical stuff peculiar to 
> California. Likewise, I'd expect the So.Dak. P.E. to know all about ice
and 
> snow loads, whereas, I doubt the local folks over the counter in Thousand 
> Oaks, CA, would care much about whether my tower would stand up to icing.
> 
> 
> >First, I went to the ARRL web site looking for a ARRL volunteer P.E.
> >but there are none shown for the state of Nevada.  Next, I contacted
> >U.S. Towers and asked them for it.  I reasoned that since this is a
> >considerable sale for them they would provide the wind calc at a
> >nominal fee.  I was thinking this was something a computer generated
> >program could spit out in a minute or so, or that there was some sort
> >of table was available.
> 
> Yes and no... it's like the story about the plumber, the hammer, and the 
> $1000 boiler repair.. The hammering costs a dollar, knowing where to
hammer 
> costs $999.
> 
> 
> >  I was somewhat shocked when I was told the
> >charge would be $250.00. When I asked why so high I was told no one
> >on their staff could do it and they had to sublet it out to an outside
> >P.E.
> 
> And, in the context of what most P.E.s do for a living, $250 IS a nominal 
> fee.  That's probably 2-4 hours work, which, by the time the engineer
works 
> out the contract for the work with you (in California, you'd have to have
a 
> written contract in place before the engineering work can be done), 
> understands what the pile of paper you've given him is, worked through the

> analysis and verified that it's correct, written his report, talked to you

> about it for a half hour or an hour, etc.. It all adds up.  Furthermore, 
> you're probably running into a "minimum charge" issue here.  It's not cost

> effective for a professional to do lots of little $50 jobs. The "per job" 
> overhead is significant (gotta run that office, pay for the lights, etc.).
> 
> 
> >  I am surprised that they have engineers who design and test
> >these towers but are unable to compute a 90 MPH wind calculation.
> 
> There's a big practical difference between designing and testing, and 
> putting your signature and wet stamp on the drawing.  A failure on the 
> former means you might get fired. A failure on the latter means you might 
> go to jail.
> 
> 
> >   The sales rep I spoke to was kind enough to email me the tower
material,
> >bolts, etc stress analysis and other specs along with the same drawing
> >I had downloaded from the internet.  But the Building Dept still wants
> >the 90 MPH wind CALCS.
> >Is there someplace I can download the method of doing this.  I am
> >hoping I may be able to do the calculation myself and find a P.E. who
> >will recheck my figures and sign off on it for less than U.S. Towers
> >wants to charge me.  I have an EE (1965) and a IE (manf) (1989) and
> >think I would be able to do the numbers if shown how to do so.
> 
> Yep.. that would be a decent strategy.. Nevada is probably like most 
> states, and has an online directory of licensed P.E.s with names, 
> addresses, etc.  Search and find some candidates and call them up.  But, 
> bear in mind the "minimum charge" phenomonon.
> 
> Analysis methodology is fairly straightforward, and covered in the TIA 
> specs, at least partially, and you should be able to get that from the
library.
> 
> >   I have
> >even considered testing for my own NV PE stamp which may be cheaper
> >than the $250.00 fee U.S. Tower wants but doubt if I could sign off my
> >own project.
> 
> In California, at least, it would be cheaper to pay the $250.  The test 
> alone is $175, and there's a significant amount of other stuff and time 
> involved (if only because you apply some months before taking the test,
and 
> then wait some more months to hear if you passed).  If you're currently 
> licensed in another state, you can apply for a license by comity, but I 
> don't recall all the rules on that off-hand.  It's probably still as 
> expensive, but it might be faster (if you don't have to take the test..
but 
> then, every state potentially has different testing requirements).
License 
> fees are a matter of revenue enhancement, as well.
> 
> 
> >I would appreciate any help someone would be able to provide.  If it
> >means finding a comparable tower from a different supplier who is more
> >buyer friendly I am open to that also.
> >TIA for any assistance.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> See: http://www.mscomputer.com  for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
Weather Stations", and lot's more.  Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with any
questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 

JOE PATRICK
SENIOR PLUMBING/MECHANICAL
INSPECTOR CITY OF BOYNTON BEACH

_______________________________________________

See: http://www.mscomputer.com  for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
Weather Stations", and lot's more.  Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with any
questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.

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