[TowerTalk] Moxon principle
WD4K
WD4K2 at charter.net
Thu Mar 4 23:07:23 EST 2004
Could have sworn I saw the moxon principle or variance of it in use on one
or more of the OPTIBeam antennas being marketed by WX0B. Someone correct me
if I am wrong but it sure looked like it during a passing glance at Dayton
last year. Anybody else check that out? Tommy WD4K
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Re: Elevated Guy Anchors REPLY (Robert Shohet)
2. Re: 40M Steppir? Long answer coming (VR2BrettGraham)
3. 4o meter versions. (Van Fair)
4. Re: 40M Steppir? Long answer coming (Bernard)
5. RE: 40M Steppir? Long answer coming (Al N6TA)
6. Re: 40M Steppir? Long answer coming (Bernard)
7. RE: 40M Steppir? Long answer coming (Dale Martin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:16:06 -0500
From: "Robert Shohet" <kq2m at earthlink.net>
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Re: Elevated Guy Anchors REPLY
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<002801c4017e$584f8510$0400a8c0 at roger2>
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> Something I need to point out here.
> Although the math is correct, elevated guys *usually* end up derating the
> system, not adding to it's capabilities.
Like many things, it depends on what you use for materials and how solid the
structure is
and how well anchored in the ground it is.
> > Think geometry, think triangles....
> >
> > For space restricted installations, with or without antennas on
sidemounts
> > or ring rotators,
> > if you ELEVATE the guy points above ground, you DECREASE the angle of
the
> > hypotenuse of the triangle formed between the tower/ground and the guy
> wire
> > between the elevated guy point and the tower.
> >
> You also add to the leverage being applied to the guy anchor which is at
> ground level, or slightly below. That reduces the stability of the anchor.
> In other words, instad of a straight pull, you are now pulling on that
point
> with a lever.
> With my guys anchored at 10 feet, with a side pull -- One guy line at 30
> degrees, 400# tension, one at 40 degrees, 400# tension, and one at 50
> degrees 600# tension. It's been along time since I calculated the angles
> and resultang horizontal pull, but I believe it was on the order of 600#.
> That is 600# multiplied by 10 feet, or 6,000 ft lbs of torquue being
applied
> to the guy anchor center of mass.
It has been a long time since I did physics calculations so I will pass on
doing the math.
One of the more learned towertalk readers can do the calcs.
The crux of the matter is that with ONE galvanized steel guy anchor, prone
to rusting, everything depends on the state of that one piece of steel
pointing into the cement.
With a set of heavy Ibeams, many feet long, many feet high and many feet
into the ground into concrete, and with a vastly heavier mass, if it is
built correctly and bolted together correctly, you have a far sturdier
structure for guying. Please understand that I am NOT talking about using
ONE Ibeam mounted vertically, I am talking about using SEVERAL Ibeams bolted
together to form an Inverted TEE, mounted about 3'-5' deep into the cement
in a trench about 8'-10' wide. There is NO comparison to a single
galvanized steel anchor.
You can ask W3EA for details on his installation which is as sturdy as it is
visually pleasing to look at!
> It's been my experience that due to the less rigid guys (unless the post
is
> back guyed) the system can not be as large as one tied directly to the
> concrete at ground level.
Totally unnecessary with the installation that I described.
> > In my case, at my qth, this would be a SIGNIFICANT advantage as my
towers
> > are very space challenged and my guy wires are shorter than I would have
> > liked to have them for sidemount purposes. (they are still within Rohn
> specs
> > though!).
>
> In this case it's a definate advantage and the reason I elevated mine. To
> clear the driveway and the house roof in one direction.
>
> >
> > At other qth's with lots of open space, this is not a serious
> consideration.
> >
> > However, the IBeam installation method, if done right, is far sturdier
and
> > much more flexible than using standard earth anchors in the ground with
> lots
> > of concrete.
> >
>
> This is not the conclusion the engineers came to with mine.
> Although the math does show them to be stronger *until* the leverage on
the
> base of the guy anchor is taken into account. It's the reason I have some
> photos of 5" steel pipe having moved out of line by over 2 feet in about
15
> years. Now were those same pipes "back guyed" they'd have never moved and
> the elevated anchor popints would have been stronger.
Again, you have to do the math with the materials actually being used in the
configuration actually used.
>
> Without back guying I had to rely on the mass of 2 1/2 yards of concrete
> about 5 1/2 feet deep.
> http://www.rogerhalstead.com/ham_files/tower.htm 4 th line of photos from
> the top.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI, EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
> N833R, World's Oldest Debonair (S# CD-2)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
73
Bob KQ2M
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 00:43:37 +0000
From: VR2BrettGraham <vr2bg at harts.org.hk>
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 40M Steppir? Long answer coming
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20040305002942.00ceac40 at pop.pacific.net.hk>
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N6TA shared with us some info from K7IR of SteppIR:
>I copy below my request for info on new yagis and this is what I got back.
>Read from the bottom up, if you want it in time order:
>
>Al, Sorry I forgot wind loads. As follows; The approximate wind load for
>the 2 element is 7.7 sq feet, the 3 element ( two elements moxon type) 9.5
>sq feet, the 4 element (two elements moxon type) 13.5 sq feet, the full
>size 4 element (one element 36' three 70') 22 sq feet.
Wonder how the Moxon is being achieved mechanically?
Moxons are great - I have a wire one for 10m right now & although I have
yet to get it tuned properly, the F/R is just what the doctor ordered with
all the bleeps, blurps & other flatulence from the illegals.
Two SteppIR-Moxon elements set up for 40 based on the info from W4RNL's
site when retracted for 30 would be about 0.19 wavelengths apart - this
could
be a very interesting product!
73, VR2BrettGraham
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:58:08 -0500
From: "Van Fair" <vfair at innova.net>
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Subject: [TowerTalk] 4o meter versions.
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Mike I too am waiting to see what direction you are going and like what =
i hear. Can you match up approx weights with the wind loads you gave of =
7.7, 9.5, and 13.5. I know I cant handle the 70 foot long elements. The =
50' MOXon elements are a surprise and a good one. As I understand it =
the 10 ft boom would have two 50 ft el with 6.5 to 22 MHZ. the 17 foot =
boom would have the same plus one standard short element to give it 2 el =
on 40 and 30 and 3 on all the others. The 32 foot boom would have the 2 =
50' long elements. and two short ones, to give the unit 2 el on 40 &30 =
and 4 on all the other bands. Is my understanding correct?? About the =
only question left is to ask for a ballpark price for the 3 units shown =
above. 73 and thanks from all of us for taking the time to give us a =
heads up. Once again showing your concern for your customers and =
potential customers. Thanks Van W4GIW From robin.midgett at vanderbilt.edu Thu
Mar 4 20:53:21 2004
Return-Path: <robin.midgett at vanderbilt.edu>
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Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:53:44 -0600
To: towertalk at contesting.com
From: "Robin E. Midgett" <robin.midgett at vanderbilt.edu>
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Subject: [TowerTalk] FS: 4130 & 1026 DOM Mast Material
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I have both 1026 DOM & 4130 Chromoly mast material for sale, galvanized. 2"
OD x 1/4" wall in 22' lengths. Please contact me direct for more info,
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:16:45 -0600
From: "Bernard" <wtrone at comcast.net>
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>, "VR2BrettGraham" <vr2bg at harts.org.hk>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 40M Steppir? Long answer coming
Message-ID: <017701c40260$4aee8c80$6401a8c0 at DB5QP541>
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Wonder if someone could describe what a Moxon element is? I don't
recall ever seeing this term used before.
Thanks.
73
Bernard, WA4OEJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "VR2BrettGraham" <vr2bg at harts.org.hk>
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 40M Steppir? Long answer coming
> N6TA shared with us some info from K7IR of SteppIR:
>
> >I copy below my request for info on new yagis and this is what I got
back.
> >Read from the bottom up, if you want it in time order:
> >
> >Al, Sorry I forgot wind loads. As follows; The approximate wind load
for
> >the 2 element is 7.7 sq feet, the 3 element ( two elements moxon type)
9.5
> >sq feet, the 4 element (two elements moxon type) 13.5 sq feet, the full
> >size 4 element (one element 36' three 70') 22 sq feet.
>
> Wonder how the Moxon is being achieved mechanically?
>
> Moxons are great - I have a wire one for 10m right now & although I have
> yet to get it tuned properly, the F/R is just what the doctor ordered with
> all the bleeps, blurps & other flatulence from the illegals.
>
> Two SteppIR-Moxon elements set up for 40 based on the info from W4RNL's
> site when retracted for 30 would be about 0.19 wavelengths apart - this
could
> be a very interesting product!
>
> 73, VR2BrettGraham
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> See: http://www.mscomputer.com for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
Weather Stations", and lot's more. Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with any
questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:41:01 -0800
From: "Al N6TA" <n6ta at arrl.net>
To: "Bernard" <wtrone at comcast.net>, <towertalk at contesting.com>,
"VR2BrettGraham" <vr2bg at harts.org.hk>
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 40M Steppir? Long answer coming
Message-ID: <JDEBIOMFHBBIFICDDEKDGEKJCEAA.n6ta at arrl.net>
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Here is a link that will tell you a lot...
http://www.cebik.com/moxpage.html
Al
-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
[mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com]On Behalf Of Bernard
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 19:17
To: towertalk at contesting.com; VR2BrettGraham
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 40M Steppir? Long answer coming
Wonder if someone could describe what a Moxon element is? I don't
recall ever seeing this term used before.
Thanks.
73
Bernard, WA4OEJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "VR2BrettGraham" <vr2bg at harts.org.hk>
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 40M Steppir? Long answer coming
> N6TA shared with us some info from K7IR of SteppIR:
>
> >I copy below my request for info on new yagis and this is what I got
back.
> >Read from the bottom up, if you want it in time order:
> >
> >Al, Sorry I forgot wind loads. As follows; The approximate wind load
for
> >the 2 element is 7.7 sq feet, the 3 element ( two elements moxon type)
9.5
> >sq feet, the 4 element (two elements moxon type) 13.5 sq feet, the full
> >size 4 element (one element 36' three 70') 22 sq feet.
>
> Wonder how the Moxon is being achieved mechanically?
>
> Moxons are great - I have a wire one for 10m right now & although I have
> yet to get it tuned properly, the F/R is just what the doctor ordered with
> all the bleeps, blurps & other flatulence from the illegals.
>
> Two SteppIR-Moxon elements set up for 40 based on the info from W4RNL's
> site when retracted for 30 would be about 0.19 wavelengths apart - this
could
> be a very interesting product!
>
> 73, VR2BrettGraham
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> See: http://www.mscomputer.com for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
Weather Stations", and lot's more. Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with any
questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
_______________________________________________
See: http://www.mscomputer.com for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
Weather Stations", and lot's more. Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with any
questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk at contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:54:27 -0600
From: "Bernard" <wtrone at comcast.net>
To: "Al N6TA" <n6ta at arrl.net>, <towertalk at contesting.com>,
"VR2BrettGraham" <vr2bg at harts.org.hk>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 40M Steppir? Long answer coming
Message-ID: <018b01c40265$8f83d2b0$6401a8c0 at DB5QP541>
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Thanks! That is a GREAT link. It does a good job of explaining the
theory and concept.
If the Steppir can/will evolve into some of those designs, I think that
we will have a most interesting alternative to most trapped and log periodic
yagi designs. I will be watching to see what happens!
73
Bernard, WA4OEJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al N6TA" <n6ta at arrl.net>
To: "Bernard" <wtrone at comcast.net>; <towertalk at contesting.com>;
"VR2BrettGraham" <vr2bg at harts.org.hk>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:41 PM
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 40M Steppir? Long answer coming
> Here is a link that will tell you a lot...
>
> http://www.cebik.com/moxpage.html
>
> Al
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
> [mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com]On Behalf Of Bernard
> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 19:17
> To: towertalk at contesting.com; VR2BrettGraham
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 40M Steppir? Long answer coming
>
>
> Wonder if someone could describe what a Moxon element is? I don't
> recall ever seeing this term used before.
>
> Thanks.
>
> 73
>
> Bernard, WA4OEJ
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "VR2BrettGraham" <vr2bg at harts.org.hk>
> To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 6:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] 40M Steppir? Long answer coming
>
>
> > N6TA shared with us some info from K7IR of SteppIR:
> >
> > >I copy below my request for info on new yagis and this is what I got
> back.
> > >Read from the bottom up, if you want it in time order:
> > >
> > >Al, Sorry I forgot wind loads. As follows; The approximate wind load
> for
> > >the 2 element is 7.7 sq feet, the 3 element ( two elements moxon type)
> 9.5
> > >sq feet, the 4 element (two elements moxon type) 13.5 sq feet, the full
> > >size 4 element (one element 36' three 70') 22 sq feet.
> >
> > Wonder how the Moxon is being achieved mechanically?
> >
> > Moxons are great - I have a wire one for 10m right now & although I have
> > yet to get it tuned properly, the F/R is just what the doctor ordered
with
> > all the bleeps, blurps & other flatulence from the illegals.
> >
> > Two SteppIR-Moxon elements set up for 40 based on the info from W4RNL's
> > site when retracted for 30 would be about 0.19 wavelengths apart - this
> could
> > be a very interesting product!
> >
> > 73, VR2BrettGraham
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > See: http://www.mscomputer.com for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
> Weather Stations", and lot's more. Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with
any
> questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TowerTalk mailing list
> > TowerTalk at contesting.com
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> See: http://www.mscomputer.com for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
> Weather Stations", and lot's more. Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with
any
> questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> See: http://www.mscomputer.com for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
Weather Stations", and lot's more. Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with any
questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:36:51 -0600
From: "Dale Martin" <kg5u at hal-pc.org>
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] 40M Steppir? Long answer coming
Message-ID: <LBEOLBBEENGBAPHMOGBMOECLCHAA.kg5u at hal-pc.org>
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I don't know anything about them, but you might try using keywords "moxon
antenna" in the search field at http://www.yahoo.com. It netted about 500
hits.
73,
dale, kg5u
=
> Wonder if someone could describe what a Moxon element is? I don't
> recall ever seeing this term used before.
>
> Thanks.
>
> 73
>
> Bernard, WA4OEJ
> =
------------------------------
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