[TowerTalk] Vacuum tube 100 years old today

Wed Nov 17 13:32:14 EST 2004

The 3 dimensional effect has little to do whether you use a tube or 
solid state amp. It has more to do with how the speakers are placed in 
the room and the quality of them. A system that can maintain good phase 
relationships is most important. Moving the speakers only a few inches 
can make a dramatic change in the effects as reflections from all the 
walls come into play.

I think that someone awhile back mentioned adding distortion to 
recordings. That may be done at times I am not sure. After all guitarist 
often severely distort the sound with heavy clipping. Sounds like crap 
to me.
But in the process of digital recording additional noise is introduced, 
called dithering, to increase the resolution of the digital recording 
process.

Blind tests are not without fault too. Often the levels are 
intentionally ,or unintentionally, not set exactly the same. That can 
make a big difference in perception.
Also any suggestion while part way through the test such as "can you 
hear the depth of that drum" can make a difference in perception.

Another factor especially when comparing tube to solid state gear is 
that impedance's are at times greatly different from one to the other. 
Depending on the associated equipment it may or may not be a factor.

73
Gary K4FMX

Bill VanAlstyne, W5WVO wrote:
> This is all off-topic, of course, but so fascinating... Hopefully we'll all be
> forgiven.  :-)  I once had the opportunity, at an audiophile friend's home, to
> do a blindfolded side-by-side comparison of two audio amplifiers he was testing,
> one a recent solid-state design that was very well-regarded in the audiophile
> community, the other a hollow-state rig, also brand new and equally
> well-regarded, producing approximately the same amount of power. Everything else
> in the test was identical -- music (on virgin vinyl, of course), turntable,
> preamp (tube, of course), and speakers.
> 
> And yes, I could hear the difference. The tube amplifier was better. It was very
> subtle, but clearly identifiable: The solid-state amplifier produced a
> beautiful, clear, warm, 2-D separation of the musicians on the "sound stage",
> but the tube amplifier went one step better and produced a sense of 3-D depth
> that I could actually hear. The drummer, for example, instead of being located
> "there", could be heard to be located "there, and back about ten feet". I didn't
> know which amplifier was producing which test until afterwards.
> 
> Is this a function of overtones, or harmonics, or what? I don't think anybody
> really knows. But don't scoff at those who say they can hear a difference this
> subtle. Been there, done that.  :-)
> 
> Bill / W5WVO
> 
> 
> Al N6TA wrote:
> 
>>I work for a guy who makes serious efforts trying to get the 'truest'
>>audio.
>>He talks of the 'infetesimal perceptible' that needs to be considered
>>when
>>evaluating the quality of an audio recording and its reproduction to
>>sound
>>waves.  His CD player is a hybrid tube and solid state unit that
>>costs over $5,000.  Imagine the rest of the components in the chain...
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
>>[mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com]On Behalf Of Gene Smar
>>Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 13:32
>>To: Jim Miller; towertalk at contesting.com
>>Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Vacuum tube 100 years old today
>>
>>TT:
>>
>>     There was an interesting (to me) article in the August 1998
>>issue of
>>IEEE Spectrum magazine about the continued use of vacuum tubes in
>>high-end
>>audio equipment and musical instrument amplifiers.  The article's main
>>thesis is that tubes provide "better-sounding" audio at high levels
>>than
>>could (or still can) be achieved by solid-state audio processing
>>circuitry.
>>Apparently there are still some applications besides QRO microwaves
>>for
>>which such hollow-state devices are better suited.
>>
>>73 de
>>Gene Smar  AD3F
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Jim Miller" <JimMiller at STL-Online.Net>
>>To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 4:16 PM
>>Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Vacuum tube 100 years old today
>>
>>
>>
>>>I was in missile class in the Air Force in 1963 and the lab and
>>>course was entirely in tubes even though the missile was entirely in
>>>transistors.
>>
>>The
>>
>>>adaptation was very short (minutes, maybe and hour) and said that
>>>transistors worked like tubes except at lower voltages and power
>>>levels. That was all there was to transistors !!!  Not bad really
>>>for a class that hadn't been rewritten yet (and that may have been
>>>all the instructor knew
>>
>>at
>>
>>>that time).
>>>
>>>73, de Jim KG0KP
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Bob Nielsen" <nielsen at oz.net>
>>>To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
>>>Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:10 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Vacuum tube 100 years old today
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 11:28:11AM -0500, Tom Rauch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Nov. 16, 1904 Fleming patented the Fleming valve. The
>>>>>vacuum tube is 100 years old today (exactly 46 years to the
>>>>>day older than I am).
>>>>>
>>>>>I was an electrical engineering student in the late 60's.
>>>>>The electronics lab stock room was full of tubes and
>>>>>sockets, and our benches had 300 volt power supplies. About
>>>>>50% of our inventory and study was tube related. I built a
>>>>>complete 500 watt HF station, receiver and transmitter, from
>>>>>stock room parts in my spare time. Every component necessary
>>>>>was in the stock room. From a textbook I still use,
>>>>>"Electronic Amplifier Circuits" McGraw-Hill Electrical
>>>>>Engineering Series 1961, comes the following quote:
>>>>>
>>>>>"For many applications a relative newcomer, the transistor,
>>>>>is replacing vacuum tube types because of the greater
>>>>>inherent reliability, lower power consumption, and smaller
>>>>>size. However, the complete replacement of the tube by the
>>>>>transistor does not seem likely, for the latter has
>>>>>shortcomings at high temperatures and high radiation
>>>>>intensities and in the production of high power at high
>>>>>frequencies. "
>>>>>
>>>>>About ten years later I received a call asking if I wanted
>>>>>any of those old tubes, tube related books, or HV bench
>>>>>power supplies before they hit the dumpster.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I was taking a senior physics class in electronics at UCLA in 1962
>>>>and we spent some time studying vacuum tube circuits.  The
>>>>professor was asked if we were going to learn anything about
>>>>transistors and replied that he had never studied them himself,
>>>>since he felt that they were a fad which wouldn't last.
>>>>
>>>>73,
>>>>Bob N7XY
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>See: http://www.mscomputer.com  for "Self Supporting Towers",
>>>>"Wireless
>>>
>>>Weather Stations", and lot's more.  Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041
>>>with
>>
>>any
>>
>>>questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>TowerTalk mailing list
>>>>TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>>>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>
>>>See: http://www.mscomputer.com  for "Self Supporting Towers",
>>>"Wireless
>>
>>Weather Stations", and lot's more.  Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041
>>with any
>>questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>TowerTalk mailing list
>>>TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>See: http://www.mscomputer.com  for "Self Supporting Towers",
>>"Wireless
>>Weather Stations", and lot's more.  Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041
>>with any
>>questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>TowerTalk mailing list
>>TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>See: http://www.mscomputer.com  for "Self Supporting Towers",
>>"Wireless Weather Stations", and lot's more.  Call Toll Free,
>>1-800-333-9041 with any questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>TowerTalk mailing list
>>TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> See: http://www.mscomputer.com  for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless Weather Stations", and lot's more.  Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with any questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
> 
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