[TowerTalk] Re: Hy Gain traps
Keith Dutson
kjdutson at earthlink.net
Wed Sep 1 11:30:25 EDT 2004
Excellent advice. I concur. Sam's Club has a good deal on Scotchbrite.
Keith NM5G
-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
[mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of W1GOR
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 9:13 AM
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Re: Hy Gain traps
Jack,
>>Clean them up with fine steel wool <<
I suggest that you clean the aluminum elements with SCOTCHBRITE and NOT
steel wool... Steel wool will leave steel particles, that will rust,
embedded in the aluminum. I use Scotchbrite pads and Noalox to treat
telescoping aluminum junctions.
73, Larry - W1GOR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Schuster" <w1wef at intergate.com>
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 9:27 AM
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: Hy Gain traps
> I am not sure if you took the traps apart from your comments. You should
> clean them up inside the cover, make sure the screws at the ends of the
> coils are tight and not rusty. The screw that grounds the trap cover is
> important too, as the capacitance between that cover and the winding is
part
> of the tuned circuit. I used to measure the impedance between the
ungrounded
> end of the trap cover and the element, with my Autek RF Analyst, and if
both
> were not the same I knew something was wrong with one or the other.
> Telescoping elements can make poor contact too, especially if you didnt
use
> noalox or penetrox or the like. Clean them up with fine steel wool and use
> noalox available at Home Depot. 73 JACK W1WEF---- Original
Message -----
> From: <towertalk-request at contesting.com>
> To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 9:33 PM
> Subject: TowerTalk Digest, Vol 20, Issue 100
>
>
> > Send TowerTalk mailing list submissions to
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> >
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> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> >
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> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of TowerTalk digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Checking / Testing traps?? (Mike Bragassa)
> > 2. RE: snow static, Quad v. Yagi (David Robbins K1TTT)
> > 3. Re: Quad vs SteppIR (Joe Giacobello)
> > 4. Re: Rohn Tower Deliveries (W3YY)
> > 5. Quads vs. SteppIR (RICHARD BOYD)
> > 6. Re: snow static, Quad v. Yagi (Tom Rauch)
> > 7. Re: snow static, Quad v. Yagi (Tom Rauch)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:04:49 -0500
> > From: "Mike Bragassa" <bragassa at consolidated.net>
> > Subject: [TowerTalk] Checking / Testing traps??
> > To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
> > Message-ID: <004d01c48fb7$4cd57060$6400a8c0 at DHFS7541>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Re: HyGain TH-7DX, tribander
> >
> > I have an old TH-7DX that I am refurbishing. Everything has been cleaned
> up and now I have it mounted about 12 feet up the side of a tower...for
> testing. I recall having a problem on 10m and want to check out those
traps
> before I do anything else with the antennae, whether it be sold or used.
> >
> > I have several questions relating to checking and tuning this antennae:
If
> anyone can offer guidance; pick-off/merge the answers or comments.
> >
> > 1. How do you check an antennae with traps? Yes, I know the regular way.
> But if there is a problem how can you pinpoint the Pb.
> >
> > Parameters, so far, at 12 feet above ground, for adjustment purposes:
> >
> > I see acceptable VSWR's 15 and 20m, considering the current height
above
> ground, e.g. 2.5:1.
> >
> > But, on 10m, I see 3:1+++ VSWR, with no appreciable null above or below
> 10m. Lowest near-bye VSWR (null) was 27,440mhz with just a 3:1+ VSWR.
> >
> > 2. Can any of you please tell me something that can be determined from
> these measurements? (re: traps)
> >
> > side note:
> > This little jewel is 25 years old and is in immaculate condition. 14
years
> in Wyoming/Montana couldn't have hurt it, except for Chinook wind damage
> risk, and amazingly, 15 years in the humid/muggy/buggy, et al, South
> Texas environment apparently did not hurt it. I had not used any of the
> special lubricants between elements, etc, and everything came apart clean
> and shiny. The stainless steel nuts and bolts, of course, were in nice
> condition. I did oil them a bit before taking them loose to avoid any
torque
> damage. I recall that every time I moved, I had to replace too many S/S
nuts
> and bolts damaged from torque or galled threads.
> >
> > Of course the plastic trap caps and driven element(s) insulators were
> trash!
> >
> > Any help, tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated !
> >
> > Mike Bragassa, K5UO
> > Conroe, Texas
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 00:12:08 -0000
> > From: "David Robbins K1TTT" <k1ttt at arrl.net>
> > Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] snow static, Quad v. Yagi
> > To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
> > Message-ID: <001101c48fb8$524b0860$0800a8c0 at k1tttibm>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Of course the gradient is real, and very measurable... even in clear
> > air. Even with no storm around there is a gradient that can be easily
> > measured and a current constantly flowing from the ground that can be
> > measured. I forget the exact values but the gradient is on the order of
> > .1 kv/m and current is couple pA/m^2. When a storm approaches this
> > gradient gets much larger 10-20kv/m(? off the top of my head) and causes
> > the corona effects seen on towers and buildings and heard in radios.
> > When a lightning leader approaches it increases even more until the air
> > breaks down and streamers form... a nearby lightning discharge of
> > course suddenly reduces the local gradient by neutralizing the pocket of
> > charge in the cloud that had formed, at least temporarily. It should be
> > noted that even snow clouds can develop quite a charge separation,
> > rarely enough to trigger lightning, but often enough to cause corona on
> > ground structures. Dust and blowing snow can also create a charge
> > gradient by the collisions with the ground and other particles (the same
> > mechanism that separates charge in a thunderstorm except there its
> > between colliding ice crystals moving up and down). Even the turbulent
> > flow of hot dust and gasses from volcanoes can cause enough charge build
> > up to cause lightning.
> >
> > Enough speculation... do some reading:
> > http://ae.atmos.uah.edu/AE/abstracts/Latham64a.html
> > http://www.avalanche.org/~moonstone/issw%2094'/measurements%20of%20the%2
> > 0electric%20field%20gradient%20in%20a%20blizzard.htm
> > http://www.spacegrant.montana.edu/Text/SandStorm.html
> > http://envsci.rutgers.edu/~veron/LightningNotes.pdf
> >
> > go google if you want more, there are thousands of them out there along
> > similar veins.
> >
> >
> >
> > David Robbins K1TTT
> > e-mail: mailto:k1ttt at arrl.net
> > web: http://www.k1ttt.net
> > AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://dxc.k1ttt.net
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com [mailto:towertalk-
> > > bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of David Jordan
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 22:25
> > > To: jimjarvis at comcast.net
> > > Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
> > > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] snow static, Quad v. Yagi
> > >
> > > Interesting...here is some real world experience that might prove
> > useful
> > > for this discussion.
> > >
> > > I was talking to a ham last night about this thread and he is also an
> > > avid gas model airplane flyer. He says when he was younger that he
> > used
> > > to use steel wires for control cables. Those wires were about 60-70ft
> > > long. When storms were approaching he noticed that flying the plane at
> > > four or five feet above the ground was no problem but when he took the
> > > plane up to 50-60ft to perform loops, etc., a charge would build up on
> > > the pair of wires and zapp the pilot operator's hand. SO, perhaps
> > this
> > > is another practical proof that the gradient is real and measurable
> > (?)!
> > >
> > > 73,
> > > dave
> > > wa3gin
> > >
> > > jimjarvis at comcast.net wrote:
> > > > Having just spent time explaining to a guy named Yagi that his name
> > was
> > > famous, I had two hours on trains to ponder the snow static thing.
> > > > Because the quad avoids the corona problems of the yagi and lpda at
> > high
> > > power and high altitudes, it is not unreasonable to think that that
> > same
> > > attribute of the closed loop would also reduce snow and rain induced
> > > static at lower power levels. Let me append a question mark to
> > > that...I'd be interested in thoughts.
> > > > I don't buy the "radome" effect notion, though. I'm not made of
> > > aluminum, but I can build up a lot of charge walking across a carpet
> > in
> > > New Mexico, and have an ESD event spanning close to an inch. (> 1
> > mile
> > > above sea level). Eventually, any charge buildup on the structure
> > due to
> > > moving snow or rain particles will have to be drained off.
> > > > When that happens, what's the current path? Down the conductors to
> > the
> > > spool holding the BeCu tapes? Is that grounded? IF it's grounded,
> > then
> > > it may bleed off continuously, as it would for plummer's delight
> > yagis,
> > > with grounded elements. Somebody might want to ask the Mertel's. I'm
> > > sure they'll tell you.
> > > > Which brings me to a corollary question...has anyone had first-hand
> > > comparison abilities between plummer's delight monobanders, and an
> > array
> > > with floating elements, like a kt34a, for example? I'd be interested
> > in
> > > the snow/rain static answer if so.
> > > > I've heard the differences in snow static on tall arrays...where the
> > > higher antenna has been much noisier than the lower ones. Pretty
> > sure
> > > that's true, although I'd like to see a theory as to why.
> > > > OK...so much for questions from Tokyo. Gotta get some bfst and go
> > to
> > > work.
> > > > N2EA
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > See: http://www.mscomputer.com for "Self Supporting Towers",
> > "Wireless
> > > Weather Stations", and lot's more. Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041
> > with
> > > any questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > TowerTalk mailing list
> > > > TowerTalk at contesting.com
> > > > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > See: http://www.mscomputer.com for "Self Supporting Towers",
> > "Wireless
> > > Weather Stations", and lot's more. Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041
> > with
> > > any questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TowerTalk mailing list
> > > TowerTalk at contesting.com
> > > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:32:18 -0400
> > From: Joe Giacobello <k2xx at swva.net>
> > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Quad vs SteppIR
> > To: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist (N6RK)" <richard at karlquist.com>
> > Cc: towertalk at contesting.com, Bill Ogden <ogden at us.ibm.com>,
> > ABowenN4OO <abowen at nettally.com>, SteppIR at yahoogroups.com
> > Message-ID: <41351892.8010409 at swva.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
> >
> > Rick, I'm not sure what you mean by directive, but there's no doubt that
> > quads have poorer F/B than Yagis. Quads seem to have a very narrow
> > frequency range over which the F/B peaks, but across the rest of the
> > band it's at least 10 dB poorer than a Yagi, if not more. Nevertheless,
> > I am using a four element, five band quad on a 24 ft. boom, and the
> > model shows that forward gain is at least equivalent to a three element
> > monoband Yagi on 20M and better on the higher frequency bands where the
> > boom length is longer.
> >
> > I am also not thrilled with the common feed approach that Mike uses.
> > Lew McCoy, in his review of LB quads indicated some interactions
> > between harmonically related bands, i.e. 10 and 20 meters, but I
> > believe that the feed system has been modified since then. I use
> > separate feeds for each band via a remote switch and my experiences have
> > been excellent. I have to admit that I've not done actual A/B testing
> > on quads vs Yagis, but my on the air experiences indicate that they are
> > quite competitive.
> >
> > I use LB parts in my home-brew quads, and they are of excellent quality.
> > Mike also gives attentive, personalized service.
> >
> > Finally, I would say that a multiband quad is an easy way to get the
> > equivalent of multiple monoband Yagis on a single, (relatively) simple
> > support structure. There's a lot to be said for that.
> >
> >
> > 73, Joe
> >
> >
> >
> > Richard (Rick) Karlquist (N6RK) wrote:
> >
> > >I have a Lightning Bolt quad and a 4 element SteppIR.
> > >My experience is the same, the SteppIR is way more
> > >directive than the quad. Before the quad, I had a
> > >KT34. It was also more directive than the quad.
> > >I only got the quad because it covered the WARC bands.
> > >
> > >Rick N6RK
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>Subject: [TowerTalk] Quad vs SteppIR
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>I took down my Lightning Bolt quad, which had been on a 70 ft tower
for
> 9
> > >>years. I replaced it with the 3 el SteppIR.
> > >>
> > >>The first thing I noticed on 20M, was that I had to point the antenna
in
> > >>the direction I wanted to talk instead of just aiming it north
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >
> > >See: http://www.mscomputer.com for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
> Weather Stations", and lot's more. Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with
any
> questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >TowerTalk mailing list
> > >TowerTalk at contesting.com
> > >http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 01:03:05 -0000
> > From: "W3YY" <w3yy at cox.net>
> > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Rohn Tower Deliveries
> > To: "TowerTalk List" <towertalk at contesting.com>
> > Message-ID: <003b01c48fbf$70041de0$6601a8c0 at w3yy>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > This is indeed good news and I hope Rohn/Radian can reestablish the
> > reputation formerly held by Rohn.
> >
> > Any observations on the dimensional accuracy and consistency of the new
> > products? Do they fit together smoothly and without difficulty? Are
they
> > straight? Unfortunately, I know many who experienced problems with the
> > quality of production leading to the bankruptcy.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <TexasRF at aol.com>
> > To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 7:36 PM
> > Subject: [TowerTalk] Rohn Tower Deliveries
> >
> >
> > > I am pleased to report that at long last the Rohn/Radian order has
been
> > > delivered to Texas Towers.
> > >
> > > Model 25G was delivered last month and 45G and 55G was delivered
today.
> > The
> > > galvanizing quality is excellent and appears to be very much equal to
> the
> > > quality of past shipments from Rohn.
> > >
> > > Most accessories were also delivered, with the notable exception of
TB3
> > > Thrust Bearings. Apparently the tooling for the bearings was lost in
the
> > move
> > > from Frankfort back to Peoria. I have been unable to get a delivery
date
> > for the
> > > backordered bearings.
> > >
> > > The 25G shipment from last month is sold out but another delivery is
> > > scheduled for mid September. Hopefully the supply of Rohn/Radian items
> > will even out
> > > with the next delivery and we can truly promise delivery from stock
> > again.
> > >
> > > Please feel free to call 1 800 272 3467 or e-mail
> _sales at texastowers.com_
> > > (mailto:sales at texastowers.com) to check on availability and/or
pricing
> > of
> > > Rohn/Radian products.
> > >
> > > Thanks/73,
> > > Gerald Williamson, K5GW, General Manager/Texas Towers
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > See: http://www.mscomputer.com for "Self Supporting Towers",
"Wireless
> > Weather Stations", and lot's more. Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with
> any
> > questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TowerTalk mailing list
> > > TowerTalk at contesting.com
> > > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:07:33 -0400
> > From: "RICHARD BOYD" <ke3q at msn.com>
> > Subject: [TowerTalk] Quads vs. SteppIR
> > To: "towertalk reflector" <towertalk at contesting.com>
> > Message-ID: <BAY4-DAV30UjUwJ9SUO0001c0ad at hotmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > One or more people have mentioned their "quad" was not as directive as
> their
> > SteppIR.
> > Since they did not mention how many elements their quad was, I assume it
> was
> > a 2-element,
> > in which case it's not surprising it didn't have great directivity.
73 -
> > Rich, KE3Q
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:25:05 -0400
> > From: "Tom Rauch" <w8ji at contesting.com>
> > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] snow static, Quad v. Yagi
> > To: <jimjarvis at comcast.net>, <towertalk at contesting.com>
> > Message-ID: <005101c48fc2$83579900$6601a8c0 at akorn.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > > Because the quad avoids the corona problems of the yagi
> > and lpda at high power and high altitudes, it is not
> > unreasonable to think that that same attribute of the closed
> > loop would also reduce snow and rain induced static at lower
> > power levels. Let me append a question mark to that...I'd
> > be interested in thoughts.>>
> >
> > That's right. Whats good for corona on transmitting is often
> > good for receiving.
> >
> > > I don't buy the "radome" effect notion, though. I'm not
> > made of aluminum, but I can build up a lot
> >
> > Take your hand and grap a spark plug wire. Now tough that
> > same wire with a non-metalic chunk of fiberglass several
> > inches or more long. Which passes the most charge through to
> > your shoes and the ground?
> >
> > <<of charge walking across a carpet in New Mexico, and have
> > an ESD event spanning close to an inch. (> 1 mile above sea
> > level). Eventually, any charge buildup on the structure
> > due to moving snow or rain particles will have to be drained
> > off. >>
> >
> > Why would it last until it hit the upper antenna, and then
> > in 1% more distance vanish? Is that suddenly diminishing
> > charge idea reasonable? I don't think so.
> >
> > Also we are stuck with the problem that rain, snow, and dust
> > sound the same. None actually have to be incontact with the
> > antenna to have the noise, and the particle contact rate
> > does not track the amount of noise or the pitch of noise.
> >
> > >> Which brings me to a corollary question...has anyone had
> > first-hand comparison abilities between plummer's delight
> > monobanders, and an array with floating elements, like a
> > kt34a, for example? I'd be interested in the snow/rain
> > static answer if so.
> >
> > All of my grounded element Yagis were every bit as bad as
> > insulated element Yagis, but every antenna also has driven
> > elements that are grounded. Why would it make any
> > dofference if the director or reflector was excited with
> > noise, when the element with dorect coupling to the feedline
> > is always grounded?
> >
> > The only thing that can possibly make a difference is if a
> > blunt edge was the target rater than a point that protrudes
> > outward a larger distance. Same thing that makes a quad less
> > likely to have corona while transmitting works OK in this
> > case.
> >
> > Say hi to Yagisan.
> >
> > 73 Tom
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:29:55 -0400
> > From: "Tom Rauch" <w8ji at contesting.com>
> > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] snow static, Quad v. Yagi
> > To: "David Jordan" <wa3gin at erols.com>, <jimjarvis at comcast.net>
> > Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
> > Message-ID: <005e01c48fc3$30014200$6601a8c0 at akorn.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > > I was talking to a ham last night about this thread and he
> > is also an
> > > avid gas model airplane flyer. He says when he was
> > younger that he used
> > > to use steel wires for control cables. Those wires were
> > about 60-70ft
> > > long. When storms were approaching he noticed that flying
> > the plane at
> > > four or five feet above the ground was no problem but when
> > he took the
> > > plane up to 50-60ft to perform loops, etc., a charge would
> > build up on
> > > the pair of wires and zapp the pilot operator's hand. SO,
> > perhaps this
> > > is another practical proof that the gradient is real and
> > measurable (?)!
> >
> > That's very true. My 300 ft high 160 dipole will charge
> > enough to knock me on my butt in a slight breeze on a dry
> > day!
> >
> > Not so with low antennas, no matter how long they are.
> >
> > Another good reason why high antennas have more corona in
> > bad wx than low antennas. I'm getting a taste for Mexican
> > beer.
> >
> > 73 Tom
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TowerTalk mailing list
> > TowerTalk at contesting.com
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> >
> >
> > End of TowerTalk Digest, Vol 20, Issue 100
> > ******************************************
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> See: http://www.mscomputer.com for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
Weather Stations", and lot's more. Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with any
questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
_______________________________________________
See: http://www.mscomputer.com for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
Weather Stations", and lot's more. Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with any
questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
_______________________________________________
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