[TowerTalk] "The Socialized Power Grid"

[Roger K8RI on Tower]

I debated about on list or not for this, but I think at least part is on 
topic.

> There's a significant difference between cable modem and DSL: the owner of
> the wires, and the service philosophy of the provider.
>
> In the DSL case, the owner of the wires and the provider of the service 
> are
> different (even if nominally the same company, e.g. Verizon).  The wires 
> are
> provided as part of a regulated utility, the DSL isn't.  However, that 
> works
> to DSL's benefit if the wires come down.  There's a very big incentive to
> get the wires connected again, and your DSL comes along with it. Yep.. all
> those ads on TV with linemen standing in the roaring river in the middle 
> of
> a thunderstorm at night aren't there to provide you with DSL or Cable TV,

They were here although DLS may hve been a bit lower on the priority list 
than voice.

> but they are there to provide POTS.   However, if your DSL service is in
> trouble because of quality issues, it's a bit tougher.  Your DSL provider
> can complain to the wire owner, but as long as it carries voice traffic
> adequately, its not high on the priority list.

My DSL line was "guranteed" digital by the line provider. It always worked. 
OTOH using the analog line would vary widely.  When the 56K modem was down 
to around 12 the voice would be getting noisy and they'd fix it.  With DSL 
that ws not a problem here.

>
> In any case, the physical plant (and it's management philosophy) is "keep
> the dial tone on".  They have a 24/7 mindset, even if deregulation has
> changed things a bit.  They're still worried about "real" 5-9's 
> reliability
> (#5 ESS can have no more than 60 seconds of downtime per year, and no more
> than 30 seconds in any one 24 hour period, as I recall).

Our telephones and electric are out an average of 10 to 12 *hours* a year. 
That's why I have a 9.5 KW generator hooked to the house system through a 
transfer switch.  If power is out more than 12 to 14 hours, cell phone 
coverage may be affected too.  (I'm not sure of just how much backup power 
they carry, but I'd assume it varies with load. It is not unlimited.)

> You'll note that most cable modem providers do not provide a real 
> "business"
> service (in that they have uptime commitments, repair time commitments,
> etc.), unlike DSL, T-1, etc..  They may advertise their high rate service 
> as

Our cable goes out only slightly more (so far) than the electrical. Of 
course when the electrical is out, so is the cable.  I don't see how it 
would be possible for cable to even commit to the same communications 
standards.

> "business grade", but when you look into the details of the service
> agreement, it's not something you'd want to trust your mission critical
> datacom to. (I speak here from my experience with Adelphia, and formerly,
> Verizon, for cable modem.. it may be different in other places, but 
> frankly,
> I doubt it).

<snip>
> A very interesting option that's now available in some areas is GSM/EDGE 
> or
> high rate CDMA service. My Treo 650 does data at 144kbps (I don't know if
> that has to be shared between up and down).  One can, in fact, connect a

We had a demo at the airport on getting internet weather briefings with a 
laptop and cell phone.  It worked quite well. It was a tad slower than 
cable, but in that case I think the internet is the bottleneck instead of 
the cable provider, which is why the cable is not much faster than the cell 
phone for that particular service..

> computer to it and use the Treo to get internet anywhere. (although there
> are some Terms of Service issues, depending on the cellular provider). 
> It's
> also not very heavily used, so I don't know how many simultaneous users it
> can really handle.  There's only so much bandwidth, after all, and just 
> like
> a pileup in a contest, not everything gets through.  However, it seems 
> that
> even if one were some distance from the cell site, one might be able to 
> use
> a directional antenna, etc.
>
> There's also a variety of fixed wireless providers (and for those, the 
> OTARD
> rules let you put up as big an antenna as needed, regardless of HOA 
> rules).
> There's one locally that I've tried to get a quote from, but they aren't

There are two reasonably close, test implementations. Again, they are shared 
bandwidth systems, but the one is "I believe" 10 MB/s. The other? I don't 
know. (I've offered to be a beta site for the one<:-)) )

> particularly responsive. ( I used to have 144kbps (symmetric) ISDN,and it
> was wonderful, when first installed in ancient pre-DSL days. Now,  I have
> the usual 768 DSL now. I'm just under 16kft from the CO.. none of the
> providers offer faster, and I'd like to have a bit more symmetry..  Cable
> modem, while faster, has the availability and reliability issues.   I have

Around here, I'd say it's pretty reliable when compared to the electrical 
service.  Normally it's out when the power is out and you aren't doing 
business any way.  Yes, I still have the generator and can do some 
programming even if I can't upload it, or get to the internet to view it.

Like airplanes flying instruments, I think any one running a business that 
depends on the internet needs a backup system.  When Wireless becomes 
available in this area I most likely will have it as either primary or 
backup depending on cost and speed.

> contemplated trying to do some sort of channel pairing, but the routing
> seems like it would be too big a project.)

Coordination of the channels would likely be a problem unless you split it 
into one up and one down.

>
> For hams, there's another alternative.  I know of several people seriously
> working on putting very high speed digital backbones on mountaintops 
> (where
> there are existing repeater sites).  Originally it started as a "better 
> way"
> to link repeaters, but then they took a step back and realized that given
> the relatively fixed infrastructure costs, they might as well go to much
> higher rates, work with it as a fairly vanilla IP network, and use
> techniques like VoIP for the linking.  Even a 200km 802.11g (2.5 GHz 
> 54Mbps)

VoIP is a shaky proposition.  There are ISPs and even backbone operators 
that give it lower priority when loads are heavy.  There are also problems 
that extend beyond the interoperability issues and propritary protocols. 
I'd expect VoIP to become a premium service before long and the VoIP 
companies are going to start paying through the nnose due to the bandwidth 
as it catches on.
However VoIP is a protocol that sends voice over existing internet setups, 
it is not a stand alone system.

VoIP on BPL near any transmitter is going to be almost unusualble.  If there 
is a contester in the neighborhood I'd expect it to be pretty much unusable 
for the week end. <:-))  The same is true for on-line gaming.  Latency 
caused by signals being interrupted is going to be a major problem any where 
near an HF transmitter.

> link isn't out of the question with relatively simple off-the shelf 
> hardware
> (24dBi antennas at both ends, 1Watt amps, LNA).  Of course, that would
> require the cooperation of other hams, but, overall, I think I rather 
> trust
> the cooperation of hams than depend on a board of directors whose interest
> is maximizing shareholder revenue. You might even be able to beat the HOA
> with this... I don't know what it takes to get a MMDS license, but once 
> you

Luck and a lot of money!  They are awarded 4 channels per area by the FCC on 
a lottery basis.  You are probably looking at a lot of money.  There is a 
non refundable $155 filing, or application fee and time limits for 
establishing a working system.  System price is probably on the order of  a 
hundred grand.  I'm certain that could be done cheaper, but there is a 
mountain of paper work and consulting fees prior to submitting the 
application.

> establish that you NEED that 100 ft tower to get your high speed internet
> access....

I could put in the equipment for line-of-sight wireless to the *relatively* 
local ISP and only have to pay for the dedicated IP address over my web 
hosting and a connect charge, but I'm not sure just what equipment to use.

802.11g is 56 or 58K, but that is full duplex which makes it close to 100 
base T (which is not) without as much problem with collisions OTOH I don't 
think they use it for that kind of distance.
What do they use for say 5 to 10 miles without having to go to a high priced 
system.

Roger Halstead (K8RI and ARRL 40 year Life Member)
N833R - World's oldest Debonair CD-2
www.rogerhalstead.com
> Jim, W6RMK
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "AA6DX - Mark" <aa6dx at arrl.net>
> To: "Tom Rauch" <w8ji at contesting.com>; "Courtney Judd K4WI"
> <k4wi at earthlink.net>; "Bob Nielsen" <nielsen at oz.net>
> Cc: "TowerTalk" <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 2:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] "The Socialized Power Grid"
>
>
>> I LIVE 3 BLOCKS FROM THE  COUNTY COURTHOUSE .. take into consideration ..
>> I just switched from having (for 5 years) PacBell DSL, 5 static IPs,
>> ~300-400 up, ~ 1.5 down .. to the new Cox 5 down, 1 up ... worky worky
> worky
>> ... have had as gud as 9 down, but it is hard to believe the modem will 
>> do
>> that .. but, seems to!  7 down pretty not-unusual ... UP .. well .. never
>> wunnerful like the down numbers, but usually ~400 - 1000
>>
> <big snip>
>
>>
>
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>
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>
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