[TowerTalk] LMR-400 with rotators

[C Dwight Baker]

Mike, I agreed with Kenny.  However, if you use LMR-400 Ultraflex from Times
Microwave you will have much better luck.

Dwight  W4IJY

-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
[mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of
towertalk-request at contesting.com
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:16 AM
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: TowerTalk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 119

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Today's Topics:

   1. LMR-400 with Rotators - A Dilemma (Dr M J DiGirolamo)
   2.  40 meter beams (Dennis OConnor)
   3. Sloper (nd8l at juno.com)
   4.  LMR-400 with Rotators - A Dilemma (Dennis OConnor)
   5. Re: Sloper (bob finger)
   6. Re: Wires on Freestanding Towers (Robskel)
   7. Re: tower wanted (ny6dx at aim.com)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:14:32 -0500
From: "Dr M J DiGirolamo" <DrD at 2020.com>
Subject: [TowerTalk] LMR-400 with Rotators - A Dilemma
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <008501c7145f$f509fe70$6701a8c0 at fm55k01>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Dear Colleagues,

 I'm in the final stages of arranging antennas on top of this tower
(project)
that you've been reading about since last May.   I have run against a
dilemma
that I'm not sure is real or imaginary.

Situation:

   I have a 72' crankup tower with side-arm "cable loop guides" on each of
the
tops of the 4 tower sections.  At the top is a 20 foot mast supporting
several
antennas.   The lowest antenna is a HyGain TH-11DX to be mounted about 1
foot
above the thrust bearing.  Above are 4 antennas, including 432 and 1296MHz
yagis
at the very top.

   My plan is to feed LMR-400 cable directly to all antennas 2M and below
and
use LDF4-50A hardline to the top of the tower, joining it to a more flexible
LMR-400 jumper feeding the 432 and 1296 antennas, some 16 - 20 feet above.
This
makes a total of 5 feeds of LMR-400.  This combination was selected keep the
losses to a minimum.  The difficulty of working with hardline & LMR-400 with
a
crankup tower has been carefully considered.  The conclusion is that
lowering
the tower is a two man project.

Problems, questions, dilemma:

 1.  Is LMR-400 flexible enough to be used with a rotator?  My rotator has a
450
degree travel.

 2.  How do you physically arrange the LMR-400 to allow enough slack for the
450
degree rotation, once out of the top loop?  Remember, the HyGain TH-11DX HF
beam
antenna is just about 1 foot above this upper loop.

 3.  How do you terminate/support the LDF4-50A to make the transition to
LMR-400
cable?

 4.  Anyone have photos that might help with this or perhaps a webpage URL
showing details?

All thoughts and suggestions are all welcomed.

73,

Mike DiGirolamo, W4XN
W4XN at arrl.net
Charlottesville, VA



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:49:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Dennis OConnor <ad4hk2004 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [TowerTalk]  40 meter beams
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <923675.20116.qm at web32709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

What is your price range?

If you care enough to run the very best then CAL AV 2D-40A is the only
answer...
If the budget is a bit thin then a shorty forty like the HyGain DIS-72 will
fill the bill...
In between is M2, Force 12, and a herd of others...

You are on the internet and the answers are out there...

Cheers  ...  denny

 	
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:53:13 GMT
From: "nd8l at juno.com" <nd8l at juno.com>
Subject: [TowerTalk] Sloper
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <20061130.045338.2704.1568434 at webmail06.lax.untd.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

Hi...

Just "inherited" an old W9INN sloper from
W3GH.  It has several hardwood spreaders
that have seen better days.  

Any recommendations as to a replacement 
material and a source for same?

Reply off list, please.

Thanks.

ND8L


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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 05:08:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Dennis OConnor <ad4hk2004 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [TowerTalk]  LMR-400 with Rotators - A Dilemma
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <20061130130816.23361.qmail at web32712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

ummm, you aren't going to like my thoughts... I think you are way in over
your head on this...  If you insist on trying to use a stiff coax in a
flexing situation you are in for endless breakage...  The only way I see
this as being remotely successfull is to have the "hardline" come off the
tower at an angle  in a gentle caternary to the ground- forget the cable
loops  - so that as the tower is lowered the hardline can be draped across
the lawn in large S curves...  The very best way to handle this is to crank
the tower up the day you install the hardline and leave it up until the day
your widow sells your worn out, obsolete, ham gear for two cents on the
dollar...
As far as LMR-400 for the rotator loops it will not give reliable service...
You will need to use one of the superflex type cables.. Give the guys at
Davis RF a call and ask them for advice...

cheers  ...  denny - k8do

 
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:18:07 -0500
From: bob finger <finger at goeaston.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Sloper
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <456EDA0F.9080406 at goeaston.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed

Hardwood comes from trees like Oak, Maple, etc.  If you don't have one 
then a lumber yard is the place to go.  Or you could go manmade and use 
white or tan pvc plumbing tube. Another thought would be ceramic open 
wire feeder spreaders.  Sorry, can't tell you where to come up with 
those.   Sorry, could not resist.73 bob de w9ge

nd8l at juno.com wrote:

>Hi...
>
>Just "inherited" an old W9INN sloper from
>W3GH.  It has several hardwood spreaders
>that have seen better days.  
>
>Any recommendations as to a replacement 
>material and a source for same?
>
>Reply off list, please.
>
>Thanks.
>
>ND8L
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
>Unlimited Internet Access with 1GB of Email Storage.
>Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!
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>
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>  
>


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:12:25 -0600
From: "Robskel" <robskel at tx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Wires on Freestanding Towers
To: "'Mike Fatchett'" <mike at mallardcove.com>, "'Jerry Keller'"
	<k3bz at arrl.net>,	"'TowerTalk'" <towertalk at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <005401c7140b$d5639ee0$6501a8c0 at BOBSXPPRO2006>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

What is the other end of the dipole tied to? In other words, is the tower
relatively free to flex? I suggest using a bungee cord to attach one or the
other end of the dipole to its anchor. You just don't want the wire to get
real taut when the wind blows from any direction. 

Bob, W5LT


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Fatchett [mailto:mike at mallardcove.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:12 AM
To: 'Jerry Keller'; 'TowerTalk'
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Wires on Freestanding Towers

I will defer on the guying issue as there are more qualified folks to
answer.  I think it would depend on the manufacturer.

I don't think the end of a wire dipole on the tower is going to cause any
trouble.  If I can lean my butt out from the top and the tower doesn't move
then hooking up the end of a dipole is not going to do anything either.

Mike W0MU

 

-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
[mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Keller
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 8:59 AM
To: (Reflector) TowerTalk
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wires on Freestanding Towers

I read on the reflector that it's not a good idea to guy a freestanding
tower, because of forces applied that the tower is not designed to handle.
On that same basis, is it OK to use a free-standing tower as one end support
for a dipole?  If so, should another wire antenna always be installed to
pull in the opposite direction, to balance things out? What factors should
be considered when attaching wire antennas to freestanding towers? Or is
there really no big cause for concern here?

73, Jerry K3BZ
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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 20:13:23 -0500
From: ny6dx at aim.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] tower wanted
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <8C8E233DD93D3DE-200-D021 at WEBMAIL-MC07.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 Want a hdx 572 tower anyone know where I can get one used?
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-request at contesting.com
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Sent: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 5:47 PM
Subject: TowerTalk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 116


Send TowerTalk mailing list submissions to
    towertalk at contesting.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TowerTalk digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: TowerTalk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 115 (Craig Clark)
   2. Re: Stretching THHN house wiring (Lee Buller)
   3. Re: Stretching THHN house wiring (BRENT BAUM)
   4. Re: Stuck aluminum tubes and caution (john at kk9a.com)
   5. Rust on Tower Cable (Fritz Hurd)
   6. Re: stacking monobanders (Rick Karlquist)
   7. Re: How do you separate aluminium tubes that are
      stucktogether ? (Keith Dutson)
   8. Re: Stuck aluminum tubes and caution (K8RI on TowerTalk)
   9. Re: Stuck aluminum tubes and caution (Peter Chadwick)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:41:15 -0500
From: Craig Clark <jcclark at wildblue.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] TowerTalk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 115
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <20061129194333.4A94336D054 at mail.wildblue.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed


>    4. Stretching THHN house wiring (Pete Smith)

Pete

THHN and almost all other kinds of home electrical wire is soft drawn
copper.

It will stretch and you have to account for the insulation in your 
calculations.




73, Craig Clark, K1QX


RADIOWARE AND RADIO BOOKSTORE
PO  BOX 209
RINDGE NH 03461
603 899 6957
WWW.RADIO-WARE.COM






------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:22:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Buller <k0wa at swbell.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Stretching THHN house wiring
To: Pete Smith <n4zr at contesting.com>,   TowerTalk Reflector
    <towertalk at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <77041.99007.qm at web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Pete,
   
  What I have done before putting up THHN House wiring is to pre-streach it.
I 
would take about 100 foot or so....then tie one end to a fence post and the 
other to the bumper on my car.  Drive off till it broke.  The streach is
gone 
and the place it broke was weak anyway.
   
  At least, that is how I rationalized it.  Worked for me for years
   
  Lee -K0WA
   


In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you
don't 
have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you can't find
any 
Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is
Common 
Sense devine?

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:30:17 -0700
From: "BRENT BAUM" <brentbaum5323 at msn.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Stretching THHN house wiring
To: k0wa at swbell.net, n4zr at contesting.com, towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <BAY107-F6F9EADB845B2B06EDBCA9B6E40 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Interesting technique. I'm willing to bet 3 rusted tower bolts that 80 to 
90% of the time the wire broke where it was connected to either the fence 
post or the car. Sharp bends and knots are usually the weakest points, 
whether it's antenna wire or climbing rope.

A note of caution when using this technique: tie a large rag or two on the 
wire to reduce the whipping action when it breaks, and keep dogs and small 
children at a safe distance.

73 K7MEI, Brent


>From: Lee Buller <k0wa at swbell.net>
>To: Pete Smith <n4zr at contesting.com>,TowerTalk Reflector 
><towertalk at contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Stretching THHN house wiring
>Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:22:45 -0800 (PST)
>
>Pete,
>
>   What I have done before putting up THHN House wiring is to pre-streach 
>it.  I would take about 100 foot or so....then tie one end to a fence post 
>and the other to the bumper on my car.  Drive off till it broke.  The 
>streach is gone and the place it broke was weak anyway.
>
>   At least, that is how I rationalized it.  Worked for me for years
>
>   Lee -K0WA
>
>
>
>In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you 
>don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you 
>can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common

>Sense.  Is Common Sense devine?
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TowerTalk mailing list
>TowerTalk at contesting.com
>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:33:08 -0500
From: <john at kk9a.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Stuck aluminum tubes and caution
To: <TOWERTALK at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <001901c713f5$996cd430$55f22143 at Basement>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="iso-8859-1"

I would be a little cautious about using PB Blaster.  I believe it's
basically made for unsticking rusted steel parts.  I tried Liquid Wrench
once to loosen some antenna parts and it made it more difficult.  WD-40
works well.  I'm not sure how well heat or cold will work as aluminum is a
good conductor.  The only sections I ever had trouble getting apart were
ones that were tight to begin with.  Make sure that you have around 0.005"
clearance between sections before assembling.

John KK9A


To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Stuck aluminum tubes and caution
From: "K8RI on TowerTalk" <K8RI-on-TowerTalk at tm.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:20:14 -0500
List-post: <mailto:towertalk at contesting.com>

As others have already noted penetrating oil and heat, but I'd add a caution
about heat.

As for penetrating oils, PB-Blaster is one of the best along with MouseMilk
(really). You'll probably be more likely to find PB-Blaster at the hardware
and big box stores.  The stuff works far, far better than WD-40 which isn't
all that bad. Given a choice though and particularly when I maybe saving
substantial money, I'd get some of the PB-Blaster.  Use patience. Stand the
tubes on end so the penetrating oil will tend to drain into the tubes and
give it over night.  If if won't come apart by itself then go ahead and use
some heat, sparingly.

A little more drastic would be packing the inside with dry ice just before
heating the outside.

Good Luck,

Roger Halstead (K8RI and ARRL 40 year Life Member)
N833R - World's oldest Debonair CD-2
www.rogerhalstead.com



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:23:16 -0500
From: "Fritz Hurd" <fred.hurd at cox.net>
Subject: [TowerTalk] Rust on Tower Cable
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c713fc$956f1580$0b00a8c0 at w4pku700f0857f>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi Guys  - I have a motor driven US Tower that I installed six years ago and

still works great (Model 472). Recently I have noticed a rust build-up on
the 
cable around the motor drive pulleys but not up the tower. My question is 
whether or not this is a potential problem that could weaken the cable. The 
cable looks and moves fine, but it is turning brown with rust around the
motor 
area. I suppose I could cover the motor and lower pulleys with tarp, but I'm
not 
sure that is necessary...any sugestions from your experiences?  FRITZ W4PKU

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:48:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "Rick Karlquist" <richard at karlquist.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] stacking monobanders
To: "K4SAV" <RadioIR at charter.net>
Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID:
    <22332.192.25.240.225.1164836887.squirrel at webmail.sonic.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

K4SAV wrote:
> You overlooked one other complicating factor, feedline length. The
> length of the feedline on the unused antenna determines if the unused
> antenna looks resonant or not.

No I didn't overlook that.  I installed remote relays that disconnected
both halves of the unused inverted vee from the coax.

> Experimental A/B testing of closely mounted antennas with uncontrolled
> parameters of feedline length and source impedance can produce some
> really weird results.

The antenna under test was terminated in 50 ohms at all times.

>> Hi, Rick.
>>
>> Those are interesting comments, so I modeled it up with EZNEC with
>> approximately resonant antennas to see what it looked like.  Your
>> message says "inverted vee's" (plural), so I'm making the leap to
>> assume you had all three inverted vee's up at the same time and were
>> able to switch between them.  Please correct me if I'm wrong ... and

Yes I did that.

>> None of this data should be taken too literally, of course, but the
>> model implies a lot of parasitic coupling between the three antennas
>> that affects the pattern even when only one of the antennas is being
>> fed.  Individually, the signal level at 20 degrees varies by 8 db

An inverted vee with its feed point open circuited has virtually
no parasitic coupling effects (you can easily model this).

>> It would be interesting to see someone hang an inverted vee from a
>> pully and rope and take signal strength readings at different
>> heights.  I don't have my tower up yet at this new QTH, but if nobody
>> has done so by the time I get the tower up I'll promise to give it a
>> try.
>>
>> 73,
>> Dave  AB7E

Did that too.  We put an 80m inverted vee on a 115 ft crank up tower
and A/B'ed it with a ground mounted vertical.
At full height, it was on a par with the vertical for DX.  For
locals, it was always better than the vertical, but the difference
was 10 dB more at low heights.  At low heights, the vertical beat
the vee by 10 dB on DX.  This all agrees with modeling.
For some reason, we don't see this neat relationship on 40 meters.

Hopefully, next spring, the MonstIR will go up on the crank up and
we can see how it works at various heights on 40 meters.

Rick N6RK



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:55:52 -0600
From: "Keith Dutson" <kdutson at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] How do you separate aluminium tubes that are
    stucktogether ?
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <005401c71401$24526190$6a2d490c at KEITHSUPPORT>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"

If all else fails, try heating and cooling the joint several times.  Heat
with a hair drier and cool with an ice pack.  The expansion and contraction
will sometimes break the corrosion enough to loosen the joint.

73, Keith NM5G 

-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
[mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Robert Thain
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 7:13 AM
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] How do you separate aluminium tubes that are
stucktogether ?

Hello,
 
How do you separate aluminium tubes that are stuck together ?
 
We have a 2 section boom  that we want to separate but the pieces are stuck
together. The boom is joined at the centre by a smaller tube that goes
inside the outer tubes (the boom). (The boom sleeves the smaller fixing
section in the middle.) We easily removed the bolts but the 3 pieces of tube
are stuck together. The antenna is only a year old, but we did not protect
the surface before assembly. 
I fear that it may be corroded together.
So, how do you separate aluminium tubes that are stuck, without damaging
them. 
 
I've looked back through the archives , but did not find anything......
 
Thanks
Robert G0HGW(at)yahoo.com (at) = @


    
    
        
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------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:23:10 -0500
From: "K8RI on TowerTalk" <K8RI-on-TowerTalk at tm.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Stuck aluminum tubes and caution
To: <TOWERTALK at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <001701c71404$f75c1420$6500a8c0 at SecondOne>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original




>I would be a little cautious about using PB Blaster.  I believe it's
> basically made for unsticking rusted steel parts.  I tried Liquid Wrench

"I think" it'll work well with Aluminum too, but I make no gurantees and I'm

not running out to the shop to read the lable as it's pouring rain as in 
visibility no more than a couple hundred yards. Forecase was for light 
scattered showeres.

> once to loosen some antenna parts and it made it more difficult.  WD-40
> works well.  I'm not sure how well heat or cold will work as aluminum is a
> good conductor.  The only sections I ever had trouble getting apart were
> ones that were tight to begin with.  Make sure that you have around 0.005"
> clearance between sections before assembling.

You mean this approach may not work with those two sections I drove 
together? <g> Brand new too.  It was part of an antenna boom.  They sent me 
new parts within two days. It'd be nice to save them and they've lain up on 
top of the shelving out in the shop for years.  I'll probably end up using a

small rotary saw or cutter in a mill to slot the outter tube enough to get 
them apart. That'll save the inner one and still leave me with about 6 feet 
of the larger stuff (that's out of spec)


Roger (K8RI) 



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:47:34 +0100 (CET)
From: Peter Chadwick <g3rzp at g3rzp.wanadoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Stuck aluminum tubes and caution
To: K8RI on TowerTalk <K8RI-on-TowerTalk at tm.net>,
    TOWERTALK at contesting.com
Message-ID: <25585070.239701164840454645.JavaMail.www at wwinf3201>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I've done this a couple of times, and had no problems wih galling when
twisting 
the tubing - but YMMV.
Meantime, there's two bits of a 205BA boom lying along side the hedge in my 
garden waiting for the buyer to come and separate them and take them away.  
Tried so far has been penetrating oil, heat, hammer, and a windlass between
two 
substantial trees.......plus a lot of bad language.
Some you win...........
73
Peter G3RZP

------------------------------

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