[TowerTalk] TowerTalk Digest, Vol 66, Issue 11
lmmohr
lmmohr4 at comcast.net
Wed Jun 4 09:02:58 EDT 2008
Now I'm really confused....
In todays digest I found several headings of "Jefa Tech cable QUALITY ?", a
subject I'm considering buying.
After reading through all the comments, I'm still not sure if any addressed
the "quality", but somehow drifted to other considerations.
Could someone comment on their experiences regarding 'quality' issues?
Thanks,
Larry
K9LMM
-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 12:04 AM
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: TowerTalk Digest, Vol 66, Issue 11
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Today's Topics:
1. Wilson MT-61 Rivets (ehekman at cox.net)
2. Re: Jefa Tech cable QUALITY ? (Roger (K8RI))
3. Re: Jefa Tech cable QUALITY ? (Roger (K8RI))
4. Re: Wilson MT-61 Rivets (Dennis Vernacchia)
5. Jefa Tech cable QUALITY ? (Roger Parsons)
6. Re: Jefa Tech cable QUALITY ? (Jim Chaggaris)
7. Re: LMR-400 LMR-600 Equivalent (and stuff) (James Wolf)
8. Re: LMR-400 LMR-600 Equivalent (and stuff) (Marlon K. Schafer)
9. Re: Jefa Tech cable QUALITY ? (Jim Lux)
10. Re: LMR-400 LMR-600 Equivalent (and stuff) (Roger (K8RI))
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:05:07 -0400
From: <ehekman at cox.net>
Subject: [TowerTalk] Wilson MT-61 Rivets
To: dick.w7zr at gmail.com
Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <20080603130508.AQCNZ.77300.imail at fed1rmwml22>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>The rivets on my Wilson MT-61 tower keep popping. Does anyone have a
>source for a really heavy duty rivet of the same size? Maybe of a
>strong steel instead of aluminum. Or any other fix for this problem.
>--
>Tnx es 73
>Dick W7ZR
>www.w7zr.com
Dick,
I purchased some zinc plated steel rivets from:
http://www.marshallshardware.com/
BTW, thanks again for the copy of the manual for the MT-61. I am still
working on getting a permit to install it.
Ed
WB6YTE
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 18:53:39 -0400
From: "Roger (K8RI)" <K8RI-on-TowerTalk at tm.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Jefa Tech cable QUALITY ?
To: ve3zi at rac.ca
Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <4845CB73.40809 at tm.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Roger Parsons wrote:
> I am reminded of the old saying:
>
> "If you pay the most, you may get the best. If you pay the least, you
> will certainly get the worst."
>
> Having said that, there is some perfectly good cable coming out of
> Chinese factories. For instance, thousands of km of flexible leaky
> feeder used in mines around the world is now almost entirely
> manufactured in China - and it has ISO9000 traceability. Perhaps
>
ISO 9000 traceability means very little unless they've changed from when I
had to make lab systems meet compliance.
Essentially it means document what you do and do what you document. It has
little if anything to do with quality.
Roger (K8RI)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R (World's oldest Debonair)
> sad, but nevertheless true.
>
> 73 Roger
> VE3ZI
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
> A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 18:55:32 -0400
From: "Roger (K8RI)" <K8RI-on-TowerTalk at tm.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Jefa Tech cable QUALITY ?
To: ve3zi at rac.ca
Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <4845CBE4.4090201 at tm.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Roger Parsons wrote:
> I am reminded of the old saying:
>
> "If you pay the most, you may get the best. If you pay the least, you
> will certainly get the worst."
>
> Having said that, there is some perfectly good cable coming out of
> Chinese factories. For instance, thousands of km of flexible leaky
> feeder used in mines around the world is now almost entirely
> manufactured in China - and it has ISO9000 traceability. Perhaps
>
ISO 9000 traceability means very little unless they've changed from when I
had to make lab systems meet compliance.
Essentially it means document what you do and do what you document. It has
little if anything to do with quality.
Roger (K8RI)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R (World's oldest Debonair)
> sad, but nevertheless true.
>
> 73 Roger
> VE3ZI
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
> A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:26:42 -0700
From: "Dennis Vernacchia" <n6ki73 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Wilson MT-61 Rivets
To: ehekman at cox.net
Cc: towertalk at contesting.com, dick.w7zr at gmail.com
Message-ID:
<265781b30806031626v6008d165n59cf237088c33dde at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Dick,
Marshall's Hardware in San Diego near me and great place to deal with
If U need me to go and look at the rivets or verify anything about them
before U order let me know
Marshall's can be reached at 858 217-5555
Marshall's Hardware in San Diego is old fashioned family run for past 20
years and it the hardware store you wishe Home Depot could be !!!
They are also an ACE hardware affilliate
I have no pecuniary interest in this matter
73, Dennis N6KI
Sandy eggo
On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:05 AM, <ehekman at cox.net> wrote:
> >The rivets on my Wilson MT-61 tower keep popping. Does anyone have a
> >source for a really heavy duty rivet of the same size? Maybe of a
> >strong steel instead of aluminum. Or any other fix for this problem.
> >--
> >Tnx es 73
> >Dick W7ZR
> >www.w7zr.com
>
> Dick,
>
> I purchased some zinc plated steel rivets from:
> http://www.marshallshardware.com/
>
> BTW, thanks again for the copy of the manual for the MT-61. I am
> still working on getting a permit to install it.
>
> Ed
> WB6YTE
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 02:52:25 +0100 (BST)
From: Roger Parsons <ve3zi at yahoo.com>
Subject: [TowerTalk] Jefa Tech cable QUALITY ?
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <167480.99362.qm at web38104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Roger (K8RI) wrote:
"ISO 9000 traceability means very little unless they've changed from when I
had to make lab systems meet compliance.
Essentially it means document what you do and do what you document. It has
little if anything to do with quality."
Of course that is true, and that is the nature of the standard. But
traceability includes the type, specification and supplier of the component
parts of the cable (and their suppliers). So, for example, the polyethylene
used for the inner jacket is forced to have a particular chemical
formulation. That does in practice tie things down fairly tightly.
73 Roger
VE3ZI
__________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:29:49 -0500
From: "Jim Chaggaris" <jimc at pwrone.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Jefa Tech cable QUALITY ?
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <5DF54CEB3CEE4203A1CA621B928A3AEF at JimLaptop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
"That does in practice tie things down fairly tightly."
Not really. ISO 9000 is also a procedure driven standard. A company can be
ISO certified but if they don't follow those procedures all the time, QA/QC
suffers as well as their products.
I once represented a company that was ISO 9001 certified and had at least 10
"Six Sigma Black Belts" under their employment. Their products were
horrible and never improved. We eventually severed ties with them.
Also, as a side note, a companies products that are "U.L.", "CSA", or
"Factory Mutual" listed doesn't necessarily mean they're quality products
either.
73,
Jim N9WW
James Chaggaris
President
PowerOne Corp.
1020 Cedar Avenue
Suite 203
St. Charles, IL 60174
Phn: 630-443-6500
Fax: 630-443-6505
Cell: 630-669-2241
www.pwrone.com
-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
[mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Roger Parsons
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 8:52 PM
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Jefa Tech cable QUALITY ?
Roger (K8RI) wrote:
"ISO 9000 traceability means very little unless they've changed from when I
had to make lab systems meet compliance.
Essentially it means document what you do and do what you document. It has
little if anything to do with quality."
Of course that is true, and that is the nature of the standard. But
traceability includes the type, specification and supplier of the component
parts of the cable (and their suppliers). So, for example, the polyethylene
used for the inner jacket is forced to have a particular chemical
formulation. That does in practice tie things down fairly tightly.
73 Roger
VE3ZI
__________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk at contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:42:08 -0400
From: "James Wolf" <jbwolf at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] LMR-400 LMR-600 Equivalent (and stuff)
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <001801c8c5ec$95a1ecf0$c0e5c6d0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>> "kinking" cat 5 doesn't hurt anything unless you mess up the
>>> insulation
in
the process. I've had customers help me with installs and pull too hard on
the cable not giving me time to straighten it out before it hits something
and kinks. Not at all as critical as coax is. It's great stuff to work
with compared to coax.
Also, check out these tools if you are working with cat 5. Makes life a LOT
easier!
http://www.telephoneparts.com/product/EZRJ45?gclid=CI29_YnX2JMCFR4sagod7jJ4Y
w
You have to have the special crimper to use those. Makes perfect
connections every single time though! Very nice stuff.
For a stripper I've not found anything easier or more cost effective than:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102881&cp=2032058.203
2236.2032310&parentPage=family
________________
Acckkk. Using CAT 5 at 100 MHz might be OK for a sloppy job. However, if
you use it at 1 GHz speeds, a kink will cause dramatical "bumps". If you
are even thinking about a 1 GHz run, you should be using Cat 6 or the newer
CAT 7, if it's available. With Cat 5, you might be really lucky if you can
get a full GHz speed on a run over 20 ft if the cable is in good shape.
It's best to treat it like your running fiber, no sharp bends.
Jim, KR9U
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:58:58 -0700
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <ooe at odessaoffice.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] LMR-400 LMR-600 Equivalent (and stuff)
To: "Jim Brown" <jim at audiosystemsgroup.com>, "Roger \(K8RI\)"
<K8RI-on-TowerTalk at tm.net>
Cc: towertalk at contesting.com, wireless at wispa.org, Nusrat Jamal
<njamal at ShireenInc.com>
Message-ID: <001701c8c5ee$efdcea60$640da8c0 at mlaptop2>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Here are the frequencies used.
http://discountcablesusa.com/ethernetcables.html
As for the speeds etc. I've heard that a few times before. Tell you what,
work out a speed test in whatever way you'd like to. Run your test. Now
tie the cable in a tight knot.
I tried that, no change in speed.
As for the disruption of the twist rates, ever look at what a connector
does? grin
I'm sure that some results could be seen in the lab. In the real world,
with MILES of cat5 installed in just the last few years I've seen a lot of
things effect speeds on my customers systems. Cat5 kinks haven't been one
of them.
marlon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Brown" <jim at audiosystemsgroup.com>
To: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <ooe at odessaoffice.com>; "Roger
(K8RI)" <K8RI-on-TowerTalk at tm.net>
Cc: <towertalk at contesting.com>; <wireless at wispa.org>; "Nusrat Jamal"
<njamal at ShireenInc.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] LMR-400 LMR-600 Equivalent (and stuff)
> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:21:36 -0700, Marlon K. Schafer \(509\) 982-2181
> wrote:
>
>>"kinking" cat 5 doesn't hurt anything unless you mess up the
>>insulation in the process.
>
> WRONG! Ethernet traffic is broadband data, with components well into
> the tens of MHz. CAT5 cable is four parallel transmission lines with
> twist ratios that are offset from each other to minimize crosstalk
> from one pair to another. Kinking puts discontinuities in the cable,
> which can degrade the data waveform. It can also degrade noise
> immunity and crosstalk, and increase leakage from the cable (to your
> radio). You may not notice the data degradation, because Ethernet
> includes error correction and re-sends when data is corrupted. The effect
is slower data exchange.
>
> 73,
>
> Jim Brown K9YC
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:44:18 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: Jim Lux <jimlux at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Jefa Tech cable QUALITY ?
To: "Roger (K8RI)" <K8RI-on-TowerTalk at tm.net>, ve3zi at rac.ca
Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID:
<27249184.1212554659135.JavaMail.root at elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Roger (K8RI)" <K8RI-on-TowerTalk at tm.net>
>Sent: Jun 3, 2008 3:55 PM
>To: ve3zi at rac.ca
>Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
>Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Jefa Tech cable QUALITY ?
>
>Roger Parsons wrote:
>> I am reminded of the old saying:
>>
>> "If you pay the most, you may get the best. If you pay
>> the least, you will certainly get the worst."
>>
>> Having said that, there is some perfectly good cable
>> coming out of Chinese factories. For instance,
>> thousands of km of flexible leaky feeder used in mines
>> around the world is now almost entirely manufactured
>> in China - and it has ISO9000 traceability. Perhaps
>>
>
>ISO 9000 traceability means very little unless they've changed from when
>I had to make lab systems meet compliance.
>Essentially it means document what you do and do what you document. It
>has little if anything to do with quality.
>
Well.. what it really means is that they'll be consistent, good or bad.
Jim, W6RMK
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:03:11 -0400
From: "Roger (K8RI)" <K8RI-on-TowerTalk at tm.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] LMR-400 LMR-600 Equivalent (and stuff)
To: James Wolf <jbwolf at comcast.net>
Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <4846220F.3000206 at tm.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
James Wolf wrote:
>>>> "kinking" cat 5 doesn't hurt anything unless you mess up the insulation
>>>>
> in
> the process. I've had customers help me with installs and pull too hard
on
> the cable not giving me time to straighten it out before it hits something
> and kinks. Not at all as critical as coax is. It's great stuff to work
> with compared to coax.
>
> Also, check out these tools if you are working with cat 5. Makes life a
LOT
>
> easier!
>
http://www.telephoneparts.com/product/EZRJ45?gclid=CI29_YnX2JMCFR4sagod7jJ4Y
> w
> You have to have the special crimper to use those. Makes perfect
> connections every single time though! Very nice stuff.
>
> For a stripper I've not found anything easier or more cost effective than:
>
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102881&cp=2032058.203
> 2236.2032310&parentPage=family
>
First: Thanks for those pointers. I forgot to say so before.
> ________________
>
> Acckkk. Using CAT 5 at 100 MHz might be OK for a sloppy job. However, if
> you use it at 1 GHz speeds, a kink will cause dramatical "bumps". If you
> are even thinking about a 1 GHz run, you should be using Cat 6 or the
newer
> CAT 7, if it's available. With Cat 5, you might be really lucky if you
can
> get a full GHz speed on a run over 20 ft if the cable is in good shape.
> It's best to treat it like your running fiber, no sharp bends.
>
>
I run from the switch down through the floor, then through conduit
across the basement ceiling, through the wall into the garage, up the
wall, sweep l, across the ceiling, sweep L, down the wall, junction box,
through the wall, junction box, down to sweep L, underground to the
shop, sweep L, junction box, through the wall, junction box, and finally
up the wall through conduit to an outlet box. Overall run is about 130 -
140 feet. It is running, measured at 1 Gig plus a tad. I didn't really
expect consumer grade D-Link, LinkSys, and whatever a couple of boards
use for their built in NICs. (ASUS and MSI). With over 8 Terabytes on
the network and nightly backups running several hundred Gig I still find
it slow at one gig. Complete backups seem to take forever which is why
I'm getting rid of the USB3 external drives and going eSATA. I keep data
on one set of externals and at least two computers back up to one
serving as a mirror with rolling backups to DVDs. Even then I find the
weak link to be the operator. Unfortunately at work I could chew some
one out, here I have to grin and bear the frustration.<:-)) St least so
far I've never lost all the basic programming on a radio. Although
changing the memory module in an Icom 745 was almost traumatic, but I
made it without losing voltage.
Yes, I'd much rater have the foam filled but this was free and finding
CAT6 (which I believe is the same as CAT5, but foam filled) didn't
produce results back then. Idealy I'd like run it to the tower junction
box and into the house underground with all those other cables, but that
might be pushing my luck a bit far. <:-0) So far this has worked well
for well for nearly two years (or is it 3?). Of course when I ran 5 LMR
400 (4 at legal limit), 3 RG-6 (for TV) 1 rotator cable, and two control
cables for remote antenna switches in the same conduit I head lots of,
"it'll never work", but its been "nary a problem" Even the remote
preamps at 90 feet with the tribander at 100, 7L 6 meter yagi at 115,
and the 144/440 array at 130 running up to 1,200 PEP on 144 I've had no
problems. (all the cables run up the tower together.) The preamps don't
last long, but I think that has a lot to do with the frequency the tower
gets hit by lightning. <:-))144 pointed South with the power near "tilt"
will cause some problems with the analog signal on channel 12. So far,
nothing with digital.
Which reminds me, any one know what I might coat the jacket on LMR-600UF
to increase the life time. I really don't want to be replacing it every
8 to 10 years. I know, I should have used Bury Flex and I am ordering
some to use for 50 MHz and below for the top runs (antennas to rotator
loops to top bulkhead connectors.) It's regular LMR 600 for all lines
down the side of the tower between the top and bottom bulkhead
connectors and from there into the den and shop.
Any one want to pay an outlandish price for a 190 MPH Debonair so I can
affordably finish up the antenna system? <:-))
At 14 gallons an hour at well over $5.00 each it no costs me more for
gas then the total cost of flying the same plane ran over 15 years ago.
For that matter, over 5 years ago. OTOH it's like a member of the family
and I have nearly a year to go before I can qualify to try to get my
medical back.
73
Roger (K8RI - ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R (World's oldest Debonair)
> Jim, KR9U
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
------------------------------
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