[TowerTalk] WHOLE HOUSE SURGE PROTECTORS
Dale M. Schwartz
dale at immlawfirm.com
Mon Jan 3 14:21:54 PST 2011
I think most local power companies offer the whole-house surge protectors. Call them and ask.
K4ROZ
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS (Jim Brown)
2. Re: Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS (Pete Smith)
3. Re: Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS (Paul Christensen)
4. Re: Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS (Jack Brindle)
5. Re: Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS (Mark Robinson)
6. Re: Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS (Paul Christensen)
7. Re: Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS (Jim Brown)
8. Re: Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS (Jim Miller)
9. Re: Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS (Jim Brown)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 12:06:04 -0800
From: Jim Brown <jim at audiosystemsgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <4D222C2B.4030109 at audiosystemsgroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 1/3/2011 11:16 AM, David Robbins wrote:
> those two examples are both BAD!
I agree -- both drawings have serious shortcomings. But the PRODUCTS are built correctly. :)
The SurgeX drawing shows an improper connection of the green wire -- it MUST go to the metallic enclosure, not THROUGH the enclosure to circuit common. BTW -- remember that since SurgeX works in the pro audio world, they tend to think of interconnects as balanced and shielded. The Brickwall drawing shows the connections properly. Neither drawing illustrates how the surge blows up interconnected equipment.
Here are links to pdfs of the Power Points that I've used in my workshop. The material on pages 8-17 of the Power Systems pdf (recognizable by its different typeface) was prepared (and presented) by Andy Benton, Chief Engineer and founding principal of SurgeX, and the designer of their products. The drawings do a bit better job of articulating the issues and describing how various suppression devices work. The rest of the material is mine.
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/NSCA-PowerSystems.pdf
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/NSCA-Grounding.pdf
73, Jim K9YC
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 15:38:12 -0500
From: Pete Smith <n4zr at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <4D2233B4.7050101 at contesting.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Thanks Paul (and Jim). I knew I had read about all this before, but...
So our choice is what basically? Spend $200-700 per surge protector, or use none at all?
73, Pete N4ZR
The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com, spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000
On 1/3/2011 10:59 AM, Paul Christensen wrote:
> Pete,
>
> Surge diversion to the ground conductor can raise the ground potential
> unequally between equipment. If the rise and fall of the ground
> potential is equal across interconnected equipment on a branch
> circuit, there's little issue. During a surge event, small amounts of
> resistance can create large amounts of potential difference between grounded equipment.
>
> By storing the surge energy and slowly dissipating it onto the neutral
> (a conductor actually meant for carrying current), the surge event
> does not create a potential difference between grounded equipment:
>
> http://www.surgex.com/library/22001.html
>
> http://www.brickwall.com/how-it-works.html
>
> > From the descriptions in the above links, you can see why the ONLY
> > place for
> "all three modes" of MOV protection is at the service entrance.
>
> Paul, W9AC
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pete Smith"<n4zr at contesting.com> To:<towertalk at contesting.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 10:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS
>
>
>> Why is this, Paul?
>>
>> 73, Pete N4ZR
>>
>> The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at
>> www.conteststations.com
>> The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at
>> reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
>> spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1/3/2011 10:01 AM, Paul Christensen wrote:
>>>> The gold standard is to have both... whole house to protect heavy
>>>> equipment
>>>> like AC compressors, etc. then end-point protectors for LCD TVs,
>>>> refrigerator CPUs, PCs, Ham Radios, etc.
>>> But only if the secondary suppressors are single mode (fault current path
>>> to
>>> neutral), rather than devices that offer the popular "all three modes" of
>>> protection. If secondary protection is desired after installing a
>>> whole-house protector, it should only be single mode (e.g., SurgeX,
>>> Brickwall, ZeroSurge). Except for the whole-house surge protector,
>>> "three
>>> modes of protection" devices have no place in a home.
>>>
>>> Paul, W9AC
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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>
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 16:01:53 -0500
From: "Paul Christensen" <w9ac at arrl.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <01d801cbab89$72fb1d40$1d3ca8c0 at office>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
> Thanks Paul (and Jim). I knew I had read about all this before, but...
> So our choice is what basically? Spend $200-700 per surge protector, or
> use none at all?
Pete,
I would definitely install a whole-house SPD solution at the service
entrance. Then, only consider single-mode SPD devices (e.g., SurgeX) on
branch circuits.
Right now, I'm only using a whole-house protector. All 3-mode MOV devices
previously used on my branch circuits were hauled away with the trash. I'll
add single-mode SPD devices as time (and my budget) permits.
Paul, W9AC
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 13:12:16 -0800
From: Jack Brindle <jackbrindle at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS
To: "Tower and HF antenna construction topics."
<towertalk at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <BF3E92BE-55E7-4905-9A75-C01130574087 at earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Wouldn't it be feasible to simply open up the existing three-way
devices and remove the two legs that are undesired?
I note that the older power strips I have seem to all have failed MOVs
that need to be removed anyway.
Jack Brindle, W6FB
On Jan 3, 2011, at 1:01 PM, Paul Christensen wrote:
>> Thanks Paul (and Jim). I knew I had read about all this before,
>> but...
>> So our choice is what basically? Spend $200-700 per surge
>> protector, or
>> use none at all?
>
> Pete,
>
> I would definitely install a whole-house SPD solution at the service
> entrance. Then, only consider single-mode SPD devices (e.g.,
> SurgeX) on
> branch circuits.
>
> Right now, I'm only using a whole-house protector. All 3-mode MOV
> devices
> previously used on my branch circuits were hauled away with the
> trash. I'll
> add single-mode SPD devices as time (and my budget) permits.
>
> Paul, W9AC
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 16:21:00 -0500
From: "Mark Robinson" <markrob at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS
To: "Jack Brindle" <jackbrindle at earthlink.net>, "Tower and HF antenna
construction topics." <towertalk at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <10a901cbab8c$20124330$6600a8c0 at hplaptop>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Hi Jack,
How can you tell if the MOV's have failed? I expect that most of mine are
probably like that.
You should be able to order some from say Mouser and replace them
Mark N1UK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Brindle" <jackbrindle at earthlink.net>
To: "Tower and HF antenna construction topics." <towertalk at contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2011 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS
> Wouldn't it be feasible to simply open up the existing three-way
> devices and remove the two legs that are undesired?
> I note that the older power strips I have seem to all have failed MOVs
> that need to be removed anyway.
>
> Jack Brindle, W6FB
>
>
> On Jan 3, 2011, at 1:01 PM, Paul Christensen wrote:
>
>>> Thanks Paul (and Jim). I knew I had read about all this before,
>>> but...
>>> So our choice is what basically? Spend $200-700 per surge
>>> protector, or
>>> use none at all?
>>
>> Pete,
>>
>> I would definitely install a whole-house SPD solution at the service
>> entrance. Then, only consider single-mode SPD devices (e.g.,
>> SurgeX) on
>> branch circuits.
>>
>> Right now, I'm only using a whole-house protector. All 3-mode MOV
>> devices
>> previously used on my branch circuits were hauled away with the
>> trash. I'll
>> add single-mode SPD devices as time (and my budget) permits.
>>
>> Paul, W9AC
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 16:29:14 -0500
From: "Paul Christensen" <w9ac at arrl.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <021901cbab8d$4b95ad70$1d3ca8c0 at office>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
> Wouldn't it be feasible to simply open up the existing three-way devices
> and remove the two legs that are undesired?
Jack,
Although not optimum (through a slow discharge of surge current to neutral),
cutting the L/G, and N/G MOVs and leaving only the L/N MOV in a pre-existing
3-mode SPD is certainly a possibility. I see nothing that would violate UL
1449 -- but I'm no expert with UL standards.
One point not mentioned before (and I think to Pete's point) -- I would not
install any SPD device on a branch circuit without first installing a
whole-house SPD. I don't think that's a requirement from the single-mode
SPD manufacturers, just my own philosophy for what that's worth!
Paul, W9AC
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 13:35:27 -0800
From: Jim Brown <jim at audiosystemsgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <4D22411F.9050909 at audiosystemsgroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 1/3/2011 1:01 PM, Paul Christensen wrote:
> I would definitely install a whole-house SPD solution at the service
> entrance. Then, only consider single-mode SPD devices (e.g., SurgeX) on
> branch circuits.
>
> Right now, I'm only using a whole-house protector. All 3-mode MOV devices
> previously used on my branch circuits were hauled away with the trash. I'll
> add single-mode SPD devices as time (and my budget) permits.
I agree with that advice. The fundamental logic is that the whole house
protector takes care of what comes in on the power line, and the SurgeX
boxes take care of what is induced by a strike on wiring inside the home.
Since I began with SurgeX units before I learned about the availability
of whole house units and have them on all my sensitive gear, I've not
done the whole house unit. If I were starting from scratch, I would do
a good whole house unit first.
73, Jim K9YC
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 16:40:54 -0500
From: Jim Miller <jim at jtmiller.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS
To: jim at audiosystemsgroup.com
Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID:
<AANLkTimKRhmLcMg6NDr20b1FHnTTKaPsC1F1YuQtO5ss at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
It wasn't clear to me from rereading this thread what would be considered a
"good" whole house unit. My house is sided with vinyl not brick and my
utility supplier is BGE which as far as I can tell doesn't offer a unit.
Suggestions welcome.
thanks
jim ab3cv
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 14:16:55 -0800
From: Jim Brown <jim at audiosystemsgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Fwd: WHOLE HOUSE SURGE SUPRESSORS
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <4D224AD7.8050009 at audiosystemsgroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 1/3/2011 1:40 PM, Jim Miller wrote:
> It wasn't clear to me from rereading this thread what would be considered a
> "good" whole house unit. My house is sided with vinyl not brick and my
> utility supplier is BGE which as far as I can tell doesn't offer a unit.
I haven't done enough research on whole house units to have a meaningful
opinion. I'd appreciate hearing from those who have done that
research. I did SOME looking around, and found two products in the
$1,500 - $2,500 range that looked like they were probably decent. Both
sell into the commercial and/or military market. Both look like they're
packaged to address the fire safety issues noted by others in this thread.
73, Jim K9YC
------------------------------
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