[TowerTalk] TowerTalk Digest, Vol 132, Issue 73

[Denis Coolican]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <towertalk-request at contesting.com>
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2013 4:49 PM
Subject: TowerTalk Digest, Vol 132, Issue 73


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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Rohn 45 (john at kk9a.com)
>   2. Re: Insulating towers (john at kk9a.com)
>   3. Re: Raising Towers (Jim Lux)
>   4. Re: Insulating towers (Jim Lux)
>   5. Re: Insulating towers (Jim Lux)
>   6. Re: TowerTalk] Rohn 45 (Chuck Smallhouse)
>   7. Re: Raising Towers (Michael Tope)
>   8. Re: Raising Towers (K7LXC at aol.com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 15:58:51 -0500
> From: john at kk9a.com
> To: towertalk at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Rohn 45
> Message-ID: <072febe180fc8f6ba5bb42b38c9d0299.squirrel at www11.qth.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> If you are investing in four 6m beams, maybe $500 each, a rotator $1k?.
> plus an H frame, etc, skimping on the tower just to get them in the air
> seems foolish. There are plenty of 30' towers that are rated for this
> windload and they are not much more expensive than the proposed Rohn 45
> sections.  Besides if it falls there is still risk to humans and animals
> should they have the misfortune of being in the wrong spot at the wrong
> time.
>
> John KK9A
>
>
> To: towertalk at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Rohn 45
> From: Jim Lux <jimlux at earthlink.net>
> Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 07:58:18 -0800
> List-post: <towertalk at contesting.com">mailto:towertalk at contesting.com>
> On 12/26/13 4:42 AM, Gregg Seidl wrote:
>
> One thing to think about is whether you care if it falls down in an
> extreme wind event. You might be willing to take the risk, in exchange for
> getting your antennas on the air.
>
>
> Sounds like an interesting project, especially if you're somewhat failure
> tolerant.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 16:08:02 -0500
> From: john at kk9a.com
> To: towertalk at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Insulating towers
> Message-ID: <58a0c08f76e94b1157680b74f1934644.squirrel at www11.qth.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Wny not purchase an insulator designed for this purpose?  WB0W and Array
> Solutions among others make them.
>
> John KK9A
>
>
>
>
> To: towertalk at contesting.com
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Insulating towers
> From: "Patrick Greenlee" <patrick_g at windstream.net>
> Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 13:39:15 -0600
>
> Any thoughts on insulating a tower? I have some Rohn 25 that I want to use
> to make a home brew version of a Hy-Gain Hy-Tower multi-band vertical. I
> am considering two approaches:
>
> 1. Buy a plastic cutting board to cut up for material to home brew
> insulators to be electrically between the tilt base and the tower proper.
> (I have a friend with MS Mech Eng and 35 years hands on experience who
> will, if asked, consult on this or help me design it.)
>
> 2. Pay the $ and buy 3 insulators from Hy-Gain as replacement parts for a
> HY-Gain Hy-Tower antenna.
>
> Any thoughts on item 1 or other ideas to git 'er done.
>
> Patrick NJ5G
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 13:37:32 -0800
> From: Jim Lux <jimlux at earthlink.net>
> To: "Hector Garcia,XE2K" <j_hector_garcia at sbcglobal.net>,
> "towertalk at contesting.com" <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Raising Towers
> Message-ID: <52BCA19C.3060506 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 12/26/13 11:27 AM, Hector Garcia,XE2K wrote:
>> This is exactly an example of what is happening in the last months in
>> the reflector
>> CRITICIZE others post an not a positive output
>
> My comments weren't intended as criticism.. Just as another viewpoint.
>
>>
>> I was pointing a few possible problems to show to others what can happen
>> or give another possibility
>> to do not put in risk life or property  but what was the response?
>> supportive?  destructive?
>
> Indeed.. but one aspect that comes up a LOT on TT is the whole thing of
> "code compliance" or "good engineering practice".  Whether it's guying,
> strength of materials, or grounding practices, there's a huge amount of
> room to maneuver, depending on what one's risk acceptance strategy is.
>
> I think that the original topic here was an excellent example of someone
> who has a situation where "if it falls down, nobody will care, other
> than the builder", which is decidedly not the case when the local
> planning department is asking for wet stamped drawings from a PE (or
> maybe it is, and asking for excessive documentation is a way to restrict
> antennas and towers).
>
> I didn't see anything fundamentally "unsafe" in the pictures. Unlike a
> lot of field day pictures you see, there's nobody standing underneath
> the towers being pulled up, so if his manky tow rope does fail, he winds
> up with some bent scrap metal, not a trip to the ER or a call to the
> coroner.
>
> One can be "over-cautious" ( I think that characterizes much of what I
> do at JPL.. we are definitely risk-averse), and the most useful
> discussions on TT are where one finds out where one can do something
> that is "not the optimum".
>
> And a lot we do in ham radio, as a matter of course, is not
> "code-compliant" and that's hopefully done with an appreciation of the
> risks being taken.
>
> I'll bet very few people with wire antennas follow all the electrical
> code requirements (copper clad steel, AWG12, etc), but one hopes that
> they realize the trade they are making: the antenna might come down in a
> strong wind or when a big bird lands on it; and if it does, hopefully
> they've situated it so that it doesn't wrap around the local 14.4kV
> medium voltage feeder.  And if it does, hopefully, they've got a decent
> protective unit bonded to the safety ground system.
>
>
>
>>
>> If this ham  owns all AZ, not a close neighbor  and his tower fall and
>> kill him , his  dog or his wife and safety advice  before  can be good?
>
> I think, based on the pictures, that he does have that appreciation.
> your comments are well taken, but I think have been addressed by the ham
> in question.
>
>
>
>>
>> I was thinking this reflector was  to HELP others to make good or right
>> things, to avoid problems
>> or save some time and money and keep them ALIVE  not just  to criticize
>> with no positive output
>> Criticize is good but giving a better result or to fix others wrong doing
>>
>> My intention is not to start a war, just share my point and no intention
>> to offend others with my words, if for some reason  are crude
>> possible is the result the spanish to english translation process in my
>> brain
>> but I try to share and help and give my opinion with the intention to 
>> help.
>>
>> J.Hector Garcia  XE2K / AD6D
>> Mexicali B.C DM22fp */ *El Centro
>> P.O.Box 73
>> El Centro CA 92244-0073
>> http://xe2k.net
>> Tweeter @XE2K
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Jim Lux <jimlux at earthlink.net>
>> *To:* towertalk at contesting.com
>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 26, 2013 10:58 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [TowerTalk] Raising Towers
>>
>> On 12/26/13 10:41 AM, Hector Garcia,XE2K wrote:
>>  > Some very interesting ideas, very ingenious and a lot to avoid
>>  > I got scare with his double braid rope as lanyard @200ft tower
>>
>> Well, if you're raising it in your (big) backyard, and you're aware of
>> the risks, then you can use dental floss if you think it will work.
>>
>>  > not FAA lights on 200ft towers?
>> That would be a problem..  Maybe his "200 foot" tower is actually 199
>> ft, 6", and exempt.
>>
>>  > those bungee cords as insulators or for  tension ?
>> I'm thinking some sort of shock absorption.
>>
>>  > the anchor in the wash
>>  > no insulators in the guy wires.
>>
>> if the guy doesn't happen to be "the wrong length", then there's no
>> particular reason for insulators (unless you're feeding the tower as the
>> radiator)
>>
>>  > some good things to use  and some ones to avoid  from my point of view
>>  > be safe
>>  >
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk at contesting.com <mailto:TowerTalk at contesting.com>
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 13:41:47 -0800
> From: Jim Lux <jimlux at earthlink.net>
> To: towertalk at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Insulating towers
> Message-ID: <52BCA29B.8020407 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 12/26/13 11:39 AM, Patrick Greenlee wrote:
>> Any thoughts on insulating a tower?  I have some Rohn 25 that I want to
>> use to make a home brew version of a Hy-Gain Hy-Tower multi-band
>> vertical.  I am considering two approaches:
>>
>> 1.  Buy a plastic cutting board to cut up for material to home brew
>> insulators to be electrically between the tilt base and the tower
>> proper. (I have a friend with MS Mech Eng and 35 years hands on
>> experience who will, if asked, consult on this or help me design it.)
>>
>> 2. Pay the $ and buy 3 insulators from Hy-Gain as replacement parts for
>> a HY-Gain Hy-Tower antenna.
>>
>> Any thoughts on item 1 or other ideas to git 'er done.
>>
>>
>
> Cutting board (HDPE) is a great insulator.  You're probably not looking
> at more than 10 kV, so almost any thickness will work, as long as the
> surface creepage path is long enough.
>
> HDPE is NOT a great structural material, though. You could use
> fiberglass bolts to clamp HDPE in between layers.
>
> You can also buy fiberglass tubing (Extren is one brand): McMaster-Carr
> has a lot of it in various shapes and sizes. Again, creepage path is
> your primary thing to worry about, breakdown-wise.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 13:46:36 -0800
> From: Jim Lux <jimlux at earthlink.net>
> To: towertalk at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Insulating towers
> Message-ID: <52BCA3BC.2030107 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 12/26/13 12:36 PM, Charlie Gallo wrote:
>>
>> On 12/26/2013 Patrick Greenlee wrote:
>>
>>> Any thoughts on insulating a tower?  I have some Rohn 25 that I want to 
>>> use
>>> to make a home brew version of a Hy-Gain Hy-Tower multi-band vertical. 
>>> I am
>>> considering two approaches:
>>
>>> 1.  Buy a plastic cutting board to cut up for material to home brew
>>> insulators to be electrically between the tilt base and the tower 
>>> proper. (I
>>> have a friend with MS Mech Eng and 35 years hands on experience who 
>>> will, if
>>> asked, consult on this or help me design it.)
>>
>> The issue with plastic cutting boards is that they are made from High 
>> Density Polyethylene (HDPE)  HDPE will "cold flow" (technically called 
>> Creep), and is known for "Poor weathering resistance"
>>
>> You may want to look at one of the "filled" versions, or some other 
>> filled engineering grade plastics - or use something like PEEK, PES or 
>> even Phenolic
>>
>
> Definitely..
> Get something that is designed as a structural material.
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#fiberglass-hollow-rods/
>
>
> You may find that it's easier to just buy the premade insulators than to
> figure out how to fabricate something out of the raw materials.
>
> To a first order, structural fiberglass is a lot like aluminum, in terms
> of strength. It's a lot less stiff, though.
>
> There are very nice structural, electrical insulators out there that
> look like a lump of plastic with two threaded bolts sticking out of it.
>  The trick, as always, is knowing what breakdown voltage you need, and
> designing for that.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 14:59:11 -0700
> From: Chuck Smallhouse <w7cs at theriver.com>
> To: towertalk at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] TowerTalk] Rohn 45
> Message-ID: <20131226135914.4FF2AFF8 at dm0219.mta.everyone.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Gary, Jim,
>
> Yes the strut "guying" is the way to go and also not only provides
> the strongest support but also occupies the least amount of ground
> area, as well as the least interference with your array.  I dare say,
> with your planned medium sized 6M array of four yagis, that you might
> not need to replace your Rohn 25 with a 45, using this technique.
>
> More than thirty years ago Lance, (now W7GJ, MT) installed a large 2M
> array using 16 long yagis (30' each?) on about a 30' tall Rohn 45 and
> supported that structure with three, about 20' long, pieces of 1 1/5"
> black pipe.  They were attached about 2/3 the way up the tower and
> about 10' away from the base.  It's still up and has considerably
> more wind loading than your 6M array will have.
>
> I used his work/ideas for my own R & C, EME array project, consisting
> of 8 very long 2M yagis on 30' of Rohn 45, again a higher wind load
> than your array.  Instead of black water pipe, I used the top railing
> material for chain link fencing.  It's about 1 7/8" in diameter and
> relatively thin wall and light, but quite strong.   It comes in
> either 20' or 24' lengths  The top of this tubing was attached at
> about the 20' position on the the 45, using HB saddle mount brackets
> attached to the tower legs with U-Bolts.  The bottoms of these
> struts, using similar brackets, were attached to two 18" "J Bolts"
> set into concrete pillars in the ground.  These pillars were about
> 14" in diameter and no more than two feet deep, and placed less than
> 10' away from the tower center. This close in spacing easily allows
> the clearance of your 6M yagis when they are being elevated.  This
> array was up for at least 12 years, until I moved to this AZ QTH.
>
> BTW, R & C stands for:  Research and Copy !
>
> If you still want to use Rohn 45 replacement, you can consider using
> a large steel plate (3/16" to 1/2" thick) welded onto the Rohn 25
> stubs extending from the existing base.  This base plate needs to be
> and large enough in diameter, to weld the base of the 45 to, and also
> to weld strengthening stiffeners. These can be steel angle of at
> least 2" on a side, along it's outside edges to prevent oil can
> bending of the plate.  Don't ask why you need to do this !!
>
> I have done a similar installation, to my N. CA one, at this QTH, to
> support 16 of my now 28' boom 2M yagis.
>
> GL es 73,  Chuck,, W7CS
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 15:16:28 -0800
> From: Michael Tope <W4EF at ca.rr.com>
> To: towertalk at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Raising Towers
> Message-ID: <52BCB8CC.1090608 at ca.rr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 12/26/2013 1:37 PM, Jim Lux wrote:
>>
>>> I was pointing a few possible problems to show to others what can happen
>>> or give another possibility
>>> to do not put in risk life or property  but what was the response?
>>> supportive?  destructive?
>>
>> Indeed.. but one aspect that comes up a LOT on TT is the whole thing
>> of "code compliance" or "good engineering practice". Whether it's
>> guying, strength of materials, or grounding practices, there's a huge
>> amount of room to maneuver, depending on what one's risk acceptance
>> strategy is.
>>
>> I think that the original topic here was an excellent example of
>> someone who has a situation where "if it falls down, nobody will care,
>> other than the builder", which is decidedly not the case when the
>> local planning department is asking for wet stamped drawings from a PE
>> (or maybe it is, and asking for excessive documentation is a way to
>> restrict antennas and towers).
>>
>> I didn't see anything fundamentally "unsafe" in the pictures. Unlike a
>> lot of field day pictures you see, there's nobody standing underneath
>> the towers being pulled up, so if his manky tow rope does fail, he
>> winds up with some bent scrap metal, not a trip to the ER or a call to
>> the coroner.
>
> Jim, I had somewhat the same feeling until I scrolled down to the
> "selfie" of the guy taken from the top of one of those homebrew 200'
> towers made from chain-link fence top-rail. You can clearly see the
> safety lanyard made from dacron rope with frayed ends that is holding
> him in place. While I greatly admire the vigor of an 85 year old guy who
> fabricates and installs 200' towers by himself, nobody should be under
> any allusions that what he is doing is remotely safe (at least when it
> comes to the climbing part of it).
>
> 73, Mike W4EF............
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 18:49:39 -0500 (EST)
> From: K7LXC at aol.com
> To: towertalk at contesting.com, w7ry at centurytel.net
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Raising Towers
> Message-ID: <6d10f.337f4e33.3fee1a92 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>>  Now this guy knows how to  raise a tower! All by himself..
>
>>  http://w7yrv.blogspot.com/2013/10/cheapest-towers.html
>
>        Check out the "Mishaps"  button. Into each life a little rain must
> fall.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve      K7LXC
> TOWER TECH
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of TowerTalk Digest, Vol 132, Issue 73
> ******************************************