[TowerTalk] TowerTalk Digest, Vol 136, Issue 51

[Denis Coolican]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <towertalk-request at contesting.com>
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 8:28 AM
Subject: TowerTalk Digest, Vol 136, Issue 51


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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Grounding System Question (john at kk9a.com)
>   2. FW: [tdxs-list] HLA300 linear amp (Matt)
>   3. FW: [tdxs-list] HLA300 linear amp (Matt)
>   4. FW:  FW:  Force 12 Delta 240 2 Elem 40M Yagi (Matt)
>   5. Re: TowerTalk] Force 12 Delta 240 2 Elem 40M Yagi (john at kk9a.com)
>   6. Re: Grounding System Question (Steve Gorecki)
>   7. Re: WARC-7 - Force 12 (chetmoore)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 22:32:16 -0400
> From: <john at kk9a.com>
> To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Cc: dxdx at optonline.net
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Grounding System Question
> Message-ID: <000201cf591c$15886390$40992ab0$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> No the ground rods do not need be completely around the tower. I seem to
> recall the Polyphaser catalog showing ground rod lines that do not cover 
> 360
> degrees around the tower.  Look at their catalog for suggestions on ground
> rod placement.  Mine go out 50-60 feet from the tower base.  Six ground 
> rods
> is not many for a tower.
>
> John KK9A
>
>
> [TowerTalk] Grounding System Question
> from [Tony] [Permanent Link][Original]
> To: towertalk at contesting.com
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Grounding System Question
> From: Tony <dxdx at optonline.net>
> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 20:48:11 -0400
>
> All:
>
> My crank-up tower is located a few feet from the house and each leg is
> attached to a ground rod that's about a foot or so away from the 
> foundation.
>
> I'd like to add 3 more rods in a radial pattern to help "divert" a 
> potential
> lightning strike away from the house. The grounds can't be positioned 360
> degrees around the tower due to it's close proximity to the house so I'm 
> not
> sure how critical that is.
>
> Any suggestions on this subject as well as rod spacing and copper strap 
> size
> would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:20:21 -0500
> From: "Matt" <maflukey at gmail.com>
> To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] FW: [tdxs-list] HLA300 linear amp
> Message-ID: <04a201cf592b$2f0fbca0$8d2f35e0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I ran a 1.2kW homebrew SS amp in my mobile for about 10 years using pairs 
> of group 24 automotive batteries connected in parallel.  The following 
> calculations proved out more-or-less correct though some measurements that 
> I made:
>
>
>
> Peak input power = output / efficiency = ~1200/.6 = ~2000w peak
>
> For compressed SSB, average input power = input power x duty cycle = ~2000 
> x .40 = 800w average
>
>
>
> Automotive batteries are typically rated 60-120 amp hrs.   The average 
> total stored energy is about 1,000 watt-hrs per battery BUT voltage will 
> fall off as a function of charge level and discharge current rate.   A 
> point is reached where amplifier output will become non-linear well before 
> the battery is fully discharged.  Therefore, the full storage capacity of 
> the battery(s) is not be realistically usable.  Full discharge cycling of 
> a lead acid batteries also significantly shortens the life of the battery 
> anyway.
>
>
>
> Back to the math?   at 30-40 amp average discharge rate, typical battery 
> voltage will fall off according to state-of-charge as follows:
>
>
>
> 100% charge ? 11.7v
>
> 70% charge ? 11.5v
>
> 40% charge ? 11.0v
>
> 30% charge ? 10.7v
>
> 20% charge ? 10.3v
>
> 10% charge - <10v
>
>
>
> Remember that these are voltages under 30-40 amps average load ? not while 
> idling.
>
>
>
> Considering that the amp pulled about 160A of current on voice peaks, I 
> would typically only run the batteries down to around 40% (11v nominal 
> during transmit) before recharging.   This would give me about an hour of 
> useable transmit time as follows:
>
>
>
> 2 x 1000W-hrs x 40% / 800W = ~60 minutes of transmit time.
>
>
>
> If you are looking at using a 300w output amp with a single auto battery, 
> then you should see about 2hrs of useable transmit time per charge.
>
>
>
> P.S.   When looking for batteries ? go for the largest case size per 
> cold-crank-amp rating.  My experience is that they will generally give you 
> the longest service life.   I have found that group 27?s are the best if 
> you can find them at a reasonable cost, group 24?s are typically the best 
> in $ per service life.  Avoid the newer small case batteries.   I have 
> personally found that ?deep cycle? batteries were not worth the premium 
> cost?.
>
>
>
> Hope this is info is useful to you & have fun!
>
>
>
> 73
>
> Matt
>
> KM5VI
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Steve Smothers [mailto:cougar70 at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 6:53 PM
> To: James Carmody; tdxs-list
> Subject: Re: [tdxs-list] HLA300 linear amp
>
>
>
> Spec says you'll need a supply of at least 40 amps at 12-14v DC.   I would 
> think almost any auto battery would be capable of that, but for how long 
> is the question. When I put a new one on for the US Islands Awards 
> program, I used a regular deep cycle marine battery  and operated my 100w 
> rig for a few hours with no problem.
>
> Steve -
> W9DX
>
>
>
> .-----Original Message----- 
> From: James Carmody
> Sent: Apr 12, 2014 6:43 PM
> To: tdxs-list
> Subject: [tdxs-list] HLA300 linear amp
>
> Anybody have one?  I just got one very cheap on eBay but have not fired it 
> up yet.  Debating on whether to power it with a small auto battery (higher 
> current than deep cycle) trickle charged.  Tuner?
>
> Jim NN5O
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 23:29:32 -0500
> From: "Matt" <maflukey at gmail.com>
> To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] FW: [tdxs-list] HLA300 linear amp
> Message-ID: <06f101cf592c$7730e580$6592b080$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>>>  Debating on whether to power it with a small auto battery (higher 
>>> current than deep cycle) trickle charged.
>
>
>
>
>
> P.S.  A 10 amp charger into your battery(s) should keep up with the load 
> even in a run-frequency contest situation on phone.  Double it for RTTY. 
> Beware to read the fine print on continuous duty cycle rating before 
> buying a charger these days?
>
>
>
> Matt
>
> KM5VI
>
>
>
> From: Matt [mailto:maflukey at gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 11:20 PM
> To: towertalk at contesting.com
> Subject: FW: [tdxs-list] HLA300 linear amp
>
>
>
> I ran a 1.2kW homebrew SS amp in my mobile for about 10 years using pairs 
> of group 24 automotive batteries connected in parallel.  The following 
> calculations proved out more-or-less correct though some measurements that 
> I made:
>
>
>
> Peak input power = output / efficiency = ~1200/.6 = ~2000w peak
>
> For compressed SSB, average input power = input power x duty cycle = ~2000 
> x .40 = 800w average
>
>
>
> Automotive batteries are typically rated 60-120 amp hrs.   The average 
> total stored energy is about 1,000 watt-hrs per battery BUT voltage will 
> fall off as a function of charge level and discharge current rate.   A 
> point is reached where amplifier output will become non-linear well before 
> the battery is fully discharged.  Therefore, the full storage capacity of 
> the battery(s) is not be realistically usable.  Full discharge cycling of 
> a lead acid batteries also significantly shortens the life of the battery 
> anyway.
>
>
>
> Back to the math?   at 30-40 amp average discharge rate, typical battery 
> voltage will fall off according to state-of-charge as follows:
>
>
>
> 100% charge ? 11.7v
>
> 70% charge ? 11.5v
>
> 40% charge ? 11.0v
>
> 30% charge ? 10.7v
>
> 20% charge ? 10.3v
>
> 10% charge - <10v
>
>
>
> Remember that these are voltages under 30-40 amps average load ? not while 
> idling.
>
>
>
> Considering that the amp pulled about 160A of current on voice peaks, I 
> would typically only run the batteries down to around 40% (11v nominal 
> during transmit) before recharging.   This would give me about an hour of 
> useable transmit time as follows:
>
>
>
> 2 x 1000W-hrs x 40% / 800W = ~60 minutes of transmit time.
>
>
>
> If you are looking at using a 300w output amp with a single auto battery, 
> then you should see about 2hrs of useable transmit time per charge.
>
>
>
> P.S.   When looking for batteries ? go for the largest case size per 
> cold-crank-amp rating.  My experience is that they will generally give you 
> the longest service life.   I have found that group 27?s are the best if 
> you can find them at a reasonable cost, group 24?s are typically the best 
> in $ per service life.  Avoid the newer small case batteries.   I have 
> personally found that ?deep cycle? batteries were not worth the premium 
> cost?.
>
>
>
> Hope this is info is useful to you & have fun!
>
>
>
> 73
>
> Matt
>
> KM5VI
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Steve Smothers [mailto:cougar70 at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 6:53 PM
> To: James Carmody; tdxs-list
> Subject: Re: [tdxs-list] HLA300 linear amp
>
>
>
> Spec says you'll need a supply of at least 40 amps at 12-14v DC.   I would 
> think almost any auto battery would be capable of that, but for how long 
> is the question. When I put a new one on for the US Islands Awards 
> program, I used a regular deep cycle marine battery  and operated my 100w 
> rig for a few hours with no problem.
>
> Steve -
> W9DX
>
>
>
> .-----Original Message----- 
> From: James Carmody
> Sent: Apr 12, 2014 6:43 PM
> To: tdxs-list
> Subject: [tdxs-list] HLA300 linear amp
>
> Anybody have one?  I just got one very cheap on eBay but have not fired it 
> up yet.  Debating on whether to power it with a small auto battery (higher 
> current than deep cycle) trickle charged.  Tuner?
>
> Jim NN5O
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> Name: Untitled attachment 00142.txt
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 00:23:02 -0500
> From: "Matt" <maflukey at gmail.com>
> To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] FW:  FW:  Force 12 Delta 240 2 Elem 40M Yagi
> Message-ID: <0b4501cf5933$f0908140$d1b183c0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Thanks Grant!
>
> Matt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Grant Saviers [mailto:grants2 at pacbell.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 10:04 AM
> To: Matt
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] FW: Force 12 Delta 240 2 Elem 40M Yagi
>
> Matt,
>
> Are you aware of the W6NL Moxon designs?  There are 3, two mods of 
> existing
> 40m shorty beams and one that is a scratch build.  They are in use by big
> contestors - eg. K3LR and 8P5A.  I've built two, one for myself and one 
> for
> K6KR and now have a second built by K7ZSD for stack , these are the 110mph
> scratch build designs.
>
> Anyway, they perform extremely well and avoid the mechanical and
> gain/bandwidth/FB problems of other "shorty 40's".
>
> You can find more info in the Dayton archives in the section moderated by
> K3LR, or I can send some you some pdfs.
>
> Grant KZ1W
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 09:03:42 -0400
> From: john at kk9a.com
> To: towertalk at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] TowerTalk] Force 12 Delta 240 2 Elem 40M Yagi
> Message-ID: <3da7f4fe42830ab966827598753739b5.squirrel at www11.qth.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> This is a great design, however with the 19 or so foot T sections it is
> not a small antenna.  I would not consider them to be a shorty forty.
>
> John KK9A
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Grant Saviers [mailto:grants2 at pacbell.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 10:04 AM
> To: Matt
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] FW: Force 12 Delta 240 2 Elem 40M Yagi
>
> Matt,
>
> Are you aware of the W6NL Moxon designs?  There are 3, two mods of 
> existing
> 40m shorty beams and one that is a scratch build.  They are in use by big
> contestors - eg. K3LR and 8P5A.  I've built two, one for myself and one 
> for
> K6KR and now have a second built by K7ZSD for stack , these are the 110mph
> scratch build designs.
>
> Anyway, they perform extremely well and avoid the mechanical and
> gain/bandwidth/FB problems of other "shorty 40's".
>
> You can find more info in the Dayton archives in the section moderated by
> K3LR, or I can send some you some pdfs.
>
> Grant KZ1W
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 11:52:52 -0400
> From: Steve Gorecki <ve3cwj at gmail.com>
> To: towertalk at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Grounding System Question
> Message-ID:
> <CAEYPScCh-9F=_b6XVqhBSYFpwkVarBD32S+Z5jdoRfL+E5Gh+g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Tony, I would suggest adding even more rods if possible, like at least 6. 
> I
> used 4 foot 1/2" copper pipe spaced at 8 foot intervals (usual twice the
> rod length rule of thumb). I made home-made clamps out of 3/4 inch pipe,
> slit into two halves, and clamped the 2" copper strapping 1/2 way around
> each pipe, then screwed it all together with SS machine screws (should the
> worm clamps let go). The 2" strapping runs between about 9 rods all
> together. Be sure to use copper to copper anti oxidant on each and every
> connection. Do NOT use Noalox or any other brand of aluminum to copper
> compound for pure copper to copper connections. You must use compound
> designed for copper to copper only, if you want it to last. I'm not sure 
> of
> the thickness of my 2" strapping, but recall it comes out to about a #3 
> AWG
> equivalent in cross section area. I had bought a 4x8 foot sheet of copper
> flashing at a local roofing company, and had them shear it to 2" widths.
> So, determine the length of the ground rod, double it, and install them
> that distance from the original rods. If using 6 foot rods, go 12 feet
> maximum. Then go another 12 feet and put in a second one on each leg. Same
> for 4 foot rods, go 8 feet between. The more the better.
> Hope that helps with some ideas at least.
>
> Steve
> VE3CWJ/ VE3RX
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:27:52 -0400
> From: "chetmoore" <chetmoore at cox.net>
> To: "'Wayne Kline'" <w3ea at hotmail.com>, <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] WARC-7 - Force 12
> Message-ID: <054201cf58e9$2d420780$87c61680$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi wayne.
>
> My warc 7 has been up about 7 years.  It was probably one of the last ones
> made by
> N6BT before he sold the company to some one in texas.   This antenna
> performs as advertised
> And has been trouble free.
>
> Hope you can get yours back in working order
>
> 73
>
> Chet N4FX, KP4EAJ, VQ9XX, ZD8W, N6ZO,  N6ZO/6Y5,  N6ZO/HH9, KG4ZO, KL7AIZ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TowerTalk [mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
> Wayne
> Kline
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 3:17 PM
> To: towertalk at contesting.com
> Subject: [TowerTalk] WARC-7 - Force 12
>
> Hello Fellow TT'ers
>
> After Hurricane Sandy tore through  eastern US.   I picked up a pile of
> aluminum from the carnage.
> one pile was  remnants of a F-12 C3  ( WOW)  it was TOAST . The other 
> pieces
> of a F-12 WARC-7
> I was able to piece a boom  together   but the few straight piece left 
> gave
> me not much of a clue as to the original  antennas configuration.     So 
> B-4
> I make Tomato stakes out of it.
>
>  Dose any body HAVE a copy of the old F-12 WARC -7  manual  or just the
> over view page.
> with the dimensions on !  I'll gladly pay for copy and postage or scan an
> image to me at  W3EA at hotmail.com
>
> Thanks  Wayne  W3EA
>
> PS my interest in the  WARC bands was sparked by the W1AW Centennial  ...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> TowerTalk at contesting.com
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of TowerTalk Digest, Vol 136, Issue 51
> ******************************************