[TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support

Thu Jun 5 15:04:37 EDT 2014

Thanks guys!   I have Frank's book, great reference.   

Talked to the Building Dept - as long as it's done according to "Utility" standards (10% of length +2' in the ground, NO concrete), all they want is $69 and an inspection to be sure that if it falls it will all land on my property.   That's pretty trivial and worth the price just to avoid any hassles "down the road".

I'll probably go ahead and chronicle my "adventures" here.

Clay
N7QNM

-----Original Message-----
From: TowerTalk [mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mickey Baker
Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2014 9:05 AM
To: W0MU Mike Fatchett
Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support

Mike,

I've spent a lot of my career servicing government agencies and spent time as director of technology for a county government.

Like any workplace, 20% of the employees do 80% of the work. I don't see much difference in the public vs. private sector. Most government employees realize that their position is contingent upon providing customer service.
Adverse interaction with citizens can dramatically affect one's career - but so can approval of structures that don't meet code requirements.

Generally, denial of permits that are of questionable merit is exactly what the public wants. It is up to us, amateurs, the federally licensed "experts", to bring the facts AND the law to light to the government employees. If you don't do a good job with that, you're going to get denied
- every time. Typically, they're not engineers and not lawyers, so they are not going to allow something unless there's sufficient data that they should.

If you go in to the building department, fill out a form and submit it without appropriate documentation, you're almost certain to be rejected. Be happy that your next door neighbor can't build a pig barn or explosives factory by filling out a form and yelling about their property rights.
Complaining loudly happens more frequently than you'd imagine and it does nothing to advance your cause.

Before I got my permit for my tower in an urban neighborhood, I was denied three times for three different reasons. Each time, a cordial meeting with a different level of government official ended with an pass through one gate.

Be nice, be respectful - typically government employees are underpaid as compared to the private sector.

Get your ducks in a row, find out what you need, appear prepared, contrite and with proof of the legality and safety of your project and you'll get a permit.

Fred Hopengarten has written a great guide to doing exactly that. If you're considering putting up an antenna support, check out:
http://www.antennazoning.com/main/page_amateur_radio_main_menu.html

And buy his book with the first $50 of your project funds. It will be worth every penney.

73,

Mickey N4MB

On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 10:54 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett <w0mu at w0mu.com> wrote:

> Most of these gov't agencies are out for themselves.  I have no idea 
> why people think they are out to help us.
>
> Ask them to show you the laws and regulations that give them this power.
>
> Mike W0MU
>
> On 6/5/2014 6:51 AM, Steve Baughn wrote:
>
>> Clay,
>>
>> Reference the building dept issue you might want to start by looking 
>> up your local ordinances that deal with building regulation and see 
>> what language they use. Some years back the municipality I worked for 
>> in Ohio got a hair about a tower I had that had been in the ground 
>> for a number of years. They attempted to call it an accessory 
>> structure and a number of other things. Bottom line is they had no 
>> language that pertained to towers to begin with and had never heard 
>> of PRB-1. They then settled for me paying for a permit after the 
>> fact. This created another issue as they had no language in their fee 
>> schedule for towers. This was also resolved. They then tried the same 
>> thing on another ham. My point is just because they tell you 
>> something it may pay to double check what they are saying and make 
>> sure their ordinances are in line with what they tell you. They 
>> basically had no idea what they were talking about but because they 
>> had gotten a complaint from some nut case they felt obligated to do 
>> something-even if it was wrong..Gl es 73,
>>
>> Steve, WD8NPL
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Clay Jackson
>> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 12:59 AM
>> To: TowerTalk at contesting.com
>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support
>>
>> Thanks to all who replied - tried looking for a  BSP on wood poles and
>> couldn't find the correct index.   Any assistance there would be
>> appreciated.
>>
>> I'm going to look into some sort of tilt-up "attached pole"; but, 
>> failing that, will just do a rotor/mount and then spend the $$ 
>> renting a bucket truck when I need to do maintenance (tree service will rent me one with an
>> operator for $75/hour).   Main concern on the attached pole would be the
>> load on the pulley/cable in a wind storm.
>>
>> Another big consideration will be permitting - need to call the 
>> building dept tomorrow.  I know amateur antennas below 61' are exempt 
>> from zoning in my county, Benton, WA; but don't know about the 
>> BUILDING Dept. When I did my HyGain AV18HT (24' tower with a 24' 
>> mast); the Building Dept made me get a Washington PE licensed in THIS 
>> County to do a full-on engineered base plan, with a wet-stamp; cost 
>> well more than the antenna.
>>
>> Any suggestions on the "correct question" would also be appreciated - 
>> is it a "private utility plole" or an "antenna pole" or ??.  We're 
>> having a big addition (that required a permit and multiple 
>> inspections) and I don't want to just put it up while there will be 
>> inspectors on-site.
>>
>> 73!
>>
>> Clay
>> N7QNM
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jim W7RY [mailto:w7ry at centurytel.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 7:31 PM
>> To: n7qnm-lists at nwlink.com; TowerTalk at contesting.com; n0tt1 at juno.com
>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support
>>
>> BTW, there are Bell System Practices (call BPS's)
>>
>> BSPs And they are on Google.
>>
>>
>> 73
>> Jim W7RY
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: n0tt1 at juno.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 7:01 PM
>> To: n7qnm-lists at nwlink.com ; TowerTalk at contesting.com
>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support
>>
>> Lucky you to get such a pole for free!!!  :D)
>>
>> Use NO concrete!  The pole will shrink a little over time and there 
>> will be a crack to let water in and stay there, accelerating the 
>> rotting of your pole!  Concrete will also prevent you from making 
>> below ground periodic inspections per the reference suggested below.
>>
>> Backfill with dirt or use some fine-graded sand that you "water in"
>> to fill all the voids.
>>
>> BTW, there are Bell System Practices (call BPS's) that *may* be 
>> posted on the web that describes the proper install, loading, etc of wood poles.
>> Google.  If not, maybe a dedicated Telco ham just might have a copy 
>> in his personal library!
>>
>> I'd be tempted to rig the beam and mast with a "tilt-over" feature 
>> using a small winch to make it a no-climb antenna structure.  A 
>> "cradle" would prevent side-to-side movement at the top.
>>
>> Now back to my workbench.  :D)
>>
>> 73,
>> Charlie, N0TT
>>
>> On Tue, 3 Jun 2014 15:15:05 -0700 "Clay Jackson" 
>> <n7qnm-lists at nwlink.com>
>> writes:
>>
>>> I just "inherited" a 50' (out of the ground, 6' buried) utility pole 
>>> (crew was taking it out and told me that if I'd drag it off the 
>>> road, I could have it).
>>>
>>> I'm thinking about trying to find a rotator and tri-bander to put on 
>>> top of it; but, having no experience with such a setup; I thought 
>>> I'd seek some advice first.
>>>
>>> So, a few questions.
>>>
>>> I'm sure someone has done this before;  would you be able to share 
>>> your experiences?
>>>
>>> I have a friend who can weld anything from steel to aluminum and so 
>>> I think we can fab up a mount for the rotor.
>>>
>>> Beyond that, thoughts would be appreciated on things like:
>>> Wind loading - how many sq ft (if any) is reasonable before I have 
>>> to use guys (for my HyGain AV18HT the building dept made me engineer 
>>> the base for 90K winds, WITH a "wet stamped" drawing)?
>>> Base - is a 6' hole filled with dirt "good enough" or do I need 
>>> something more (if more, would a  6' hole with concrete be 
>>> sufficient)?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance!
>>>
>>> Clay
>>> N7QNM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
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--
Mickey Baker, N4MB
Fort Lauderdale, FL
*“Tell me, and I will listen. Show me, and I will understand. Involve me, and I will learn.” *Teton Lakota, American Indian Saying.
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