[TowerTalk] AES SK
Roger (K8RI) on TT
K8RI-on-TowerTalk at tm.net
Mon Aug 22 19:42:54 EDT 2016
So far, there are a few tower manufacturers left state side, but if you
want a really big or heavy duty crank-up, they are probably made in Europe.
Most antennas now come from across the pond again with just a few
exceptions.
A welder fresh out of a 2 year trade school starts at almost twice the
wages of the average 4 year Liberal Arts degree, so the tower builders
have a good pool to choose from, while most industries need certified
welders. The trade schools provide welders that require little training.
Many of the big names in Ham Radio have either closed their doors, or
have been bought by larger companies because they couldn't compete with
foreign companies on price, quality, and finish. There are a few exceptions.
As I've mentioned in previous posts, the quality of new hires is far
less than 30, or even 20 years ago. Work ethic, attitudes, desire to get
ahead, and the ability to communicate just aren't there. Many expect to
hire in on their desired job and stay there until retirement. I changed
jobs three times in just over 3 years.
I retired 19 years ago, If the slide has continued and I hear no
indication from working friends that it has changed, then today's new
hires must be pretty bad. One PHD Chemist told me that he thinks that is
a fair assessment.
I read that only 16% of US students go for degrees in the STEM fields
and many of those who make it to the degree, come to our doors with poor
attitudes, poor work ethics, poor, or dismal communication skills
whether written or spoken. Then they complain when they can't get a job
yet industries are asking for more green cards. We want those workers
because they want to work. In general they have better attitudes and
work ethics.
Many applicants act like spoiled kids who never bothered to learn how to
communicate.
73
Roger (K8RI) With my Japanese radios, European antennas, and American
made towers
BS in CS and Math minor
On 8/22/2016 Monday 4:01 PM, Patrick Greenlee wrote:
> Kudos to you for this terrific commentary. We share the same
> opinions, point by point. I voted with my feet at the turn of the
> century breaking a 30+ year sojourn in San Diego and moving to Rural
> Oklahoma. In my "spare time" I was an adjunct prof teaching S/W Eng
> and senior projects in evening classes at the 3rd largest private
> university in California. I worked at a large (over 5000 civil
> servants) Gov lab. The quality of applicants for scientific and
> engineering not to mention Comp Sci was in a death spiral.
>
> Patrick NJ5G
>
>
> On 7/11/2016 10:06 PM, Grant Saviers wrote:
>> I would second these views having had plants in the US, Asia, and
>> Europe. While local politics often "encouraged" local manufacturing,
>> in the end the most efficient producer environments win. When
>> countries make it an objective to be competitive on a global scale
>> and have good leadership they often achieve that goal - witness
>> Singapore's history.
>>
>> Engineering as a profession is "too hard" for many US students,
>> PolySci is easy but then graduates wonder why their jobs are in
>> retail or food service. A recent major magazine article was about
>> the "crushing college debt" of many students and their inability to
>> pay. NOT ONCE did it mention the career choice of the students
>> profiled - DUH. When I introduced 6-Sigma statistical process
>> control to my operations and checked on "how is it going?" at a
>> plant, the plant manager said, "we've hit a snag, we have to teach
>> much of the workforce how to add and subtract." The failure of US
>> public education to produce a workforce educated for the jobs of
>> today is appalling. In Asia, the skills needed were there and the
>> techniques enthusiastically embraced by the labor force. The "top
>> 5%" are a much larger population besides.
>>
>> Consider that the Philippines graduates more engineers (5 year
>> program, accredited) than the USA. There aren't the MIT, Stanford,
>> or Berkeley PhD level institutions, yet. The degrees granted focus
>> heavily towards the semiconductor industry (BS/MS EE & CS). Now they
>> are rapidly up-skilling into test design, design spins, and then
>> original designs and that work is being off-shored by US companies.
>> TSMC (Taiwan) didn't become the largest semiconductor company in the
>> world by accident.
>>
>> Cheapest labor is less important as automation has reduced the
>> handwork. Years ago the garment makers realized that computer driven
>> sewing machines were changing the game. The latest and most
>> productive machine tools cost the same everywhere in the world and it
>> is the innovation in them and the workforce skill to optimize their
>> performance that makes a difference. That takes a very skilled
>> labor base. Then there are the regulations and bureaucracy. Many
>> years ago Andy Grove (SK) promised California he would not build
>> another Intel plant in CA unless the state fixed its bizarre
>> permitting and tax/regulatory burdens. I had to LOL when the press
>> and politicians 10 years later bitched that Intel was building all
>> plants elsewhere. It took me 6 years and many dollars to get a
>> single family home building permit in Santa Clara County, on a large
>> property with ZERO issues. Now I don't live in CA. People and
>> companies can vote with their feet. Especially with the incentives,
>> skilled labor, low taxes, and streamlined permitting offered by
>> competing political entities. SiVly is propping up CA finances for
>> now, watch out when startup stock options aren't "in the money". The
>> rest of CA is in the tank, just drive through the Central Valley.
>>
>> I've been buying machine tools and tooling for the last 25 years. The
>> three most scary words 15 years ago were "Made in India." In the
>> past year, several items I've purchased had that dreaded marking, but
>> are first class. Maybe not Hardinge or Starrett level yet, but so
>> close as to not be important to me. Several of the well known but
>> lesser brands are now India made.
>>
>> Grant KZ1W
>>
>>
>> On 7/10/2016 20:27 PM, Roger (K8RI) on TT wrote:
>>> Overly simplistic with the reasons for ham gear as well as many
>>> products off shore include all the things someone said were
>>> unrelated. Unions, politics, skilled and unskilled labor, work
>>> ethics, unrealistic expectations and attitudes taught all the way
>>> through the school system. Add to that the global market system.
>>>
>>> The company I worked for had numerous plants around the US. There
>>> are many states that welcome new industries with minimal regulations
>>> and taxes. Unfortunately the Feds regulations can make starting a
>>> new business anywhere, more than a little difficult.
>>>
>>> We had plants on nearly every continent to take advantage of those
>>> "local markets"
>>>
>>> "Ham Radio" is no where near a large enough market to support that
>>> kind of business model.
>>>
>>> "Off Shore" does not mean junk, but as long as most hams are cheap,
>>> someone, here or there will build and sell "cheap stuff". Let's face
>>> it. If WE didn't purchase enough cheap stuff to support the making
>>> of cheap stuff, then they'd stop making cheap stuff.
>>>
>>> You don't need to be very old to remember when Japan was synonymous
>>> with cheap stuff.
>>> Those producing cheap stuff soon learn there is a lot more money in
>>> building "good stuff"
>>>
>>> "Cheap labor" has a way of becoming expensive labor.
>>> Japan was replaced by Korea and Mexico. Now why would Japanese
>>> companies start building cars in the US? It doesn't take long for
>>> an open mind to find those answers.
>>>
>>> Korean cheap labor is being replaced by Chinese and Indian labor.
>>>
>>> A thought:
>>> I read that in another generation or two, India will have more
>>> people with 4 year college degrees than the total US population. Can
>>> China be far behind? They have highly qualified people who WANT to
>>> work, while we have many college grads who want to tell their
>>> employers what they will do. I've seen a drastic change in new hire
>>> attitudes in my 50 plus years in industry
>>>
>>> Whoever remarked about the falling # of Hams needs to read
>>> http://www.arrl.org/news/amateur-radio-showing-steady-growth-in-the-us
>>> True, fewer build their own HF and VHF rigs, but LF and SHF are now
>>> the domain of the home builders. OTOH many of the new hams with
>>> store bought equipment understand the programming and protocols for
>>> some very sophisticated communications that leave old time CW and
>>> SSB hams scratching their heads?
>>>
>>> All of these things/topics affect Ham Radio, one way or another.!
>>>
>>> 73
>>>
>>> Roger (K8RI)
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/9/2016 Saturday 3:55 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That's a bit simplistic. I spent over 30 years working for a huge
>>>> North American based semiconductor company, and there were a
>>>> variety of reasons we ended up moving most manufacturing
>>>> elsewhere. Labor cost was certainly one of them, but rarely the
>>>> deciding factor. Others included:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Availability of trained engineers. Places like China and India
>>>> have a far greater pool of highly skilled and dedicated engineers,
>>>> and engineers in the U.S. tended to think of manufacturing as being
>>>> "unglamorous."
>>>>
>>>> 2. Proximity to local markets. As the world economy became more
>>>> global, being able to be closer to your customer had tremendous
>>>> advantages in terms of customer relationships and cycle time
>>>> reductions, not to mention trade (many countries lower tax rates
>>>> for local content) and currency issues.
>>>>
>>>> 3. Bureaucracy and overhead issues. At one point we wanted to
>>>> significantly expand a wafer fab locally, but were told by the city
>>>> that it would take at least 18 months simply to get the approvals
>>>> for it ... in spite of the fact that we had already proposed every
>>>> safety and environmental upgrade imaginable for it. Markets don't
>>>> wait for that kind of crap, and we ended up having to build the fab
>>>> offshore where some other entity actually wanted it.
>>>>
>>>> Other industries faced different issues ... tax burdens in the
>>>> U.S., ridiculous union requirements (much less of an issue now, of
>>>> course, at least in most places), availability of raw materials,
>>>> etc. The problem as many of us recognized even back then was that
>>>> once such manufacturing migrations begin they are very difficult to
>>>> curb. How many colleges and universities in North America offer
>>>> engineering courses specifically geared toward manufacturing? Damn
>>>> few, if any. In Asia they are everywhere. Compare tax rates.
>>>> Compare transportation costs to major markets (North America is no
>>>> longer the only one).
>>>>
>>>> The list of reasons why such "big box" products are built elsewhere
>>>> is almost endless, and while it may be convenient to blame the
>>>> manufacturers for that it is simply scapegoating. Consumers who
>>>> tend to buy the cheapest available product regardless of quality
>>>> (and they are still the majority, to which I can attest having
>>>> worked for a while at a big box store) share the blame, as do most
>>>> other elements of the economic system that ignored cost and
>>>> efficiency in favor of other factors. I'd even bet that your own
>>>> investment funds lie with companies that make as much profit as
>>>> possible, as opposed to some company that tried to fight the system
>>>> by paying higher wages, paying higher taxes, training it's own
>>>> engineers, paying higher transportation costs ... etc, etc, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Manufacturers mostly follow ... they don't really lead the parade.
>>>> I can say with great experience that moving manufacturing offshore
>>>> is one of the riskiest, most traumatic actions a manufacturer can
>>>> take. It doesn't happen without significant outside pressure from
>>>> one place or another.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>>
>>>> Dave AB7E
>>>
>>>
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73
Roger (K8RI)
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