[TowerTalk] US Tower price increase

Tue Jan 3 21:12:26 EST 2017

I believe Dick has nailed it..!..With that market at those prices, who 
needs the hams. There are lots of hams here in CA, but I bet less than 2 
or 3 %  have any kind of tower.

Chuck
W6RD

On 1/3/2017 5:43 PM, Richard Solomon wrote:
> You chaps are looking under the
> wrong rock here.
>
> With the potential of a large increase
> in orders for use on the "Wall", this
> is just the precursor to justify the
> prices that will be charged to the
> government.
>
> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Kevin <kstover at ac0h.net> wrote:
>
>> Correct.
>>
>> Double it if you want. I can't imagine it taking more than 10 minutes to
>> load and clamp the fixture. Add another 5 for getting it out of the
>> fixture. That's 2+ per hour. Building the complete tower would take a great
>> deal more time.
>>
>> I used to weld these and build the newer model welding fixtures.
>>
>> http://www.handyindustries.com/truck-tailgates
>>
>> 3-4 per hour, 30+ for a ten hour day. That's loading the jig, welding,
>> unloading. 5th wheel gates had approx 56 individual welds depending on
>> model. Straights not as many. We used MIG welders. 0.035 diameter wire and
>> 90/10 Argon/CO2 gas. The louvers were 20ga and were welded top and bottom
>> to 16ga side channels and the V braces and support rods. It was like
>> welding toilet paper. I'd love to weld a tower section. Big fat
>> steel...crank up the welder and fly. The LCD helmet did help. No helmet
>> flipping.
>>
>>
>> On 1/2/2017 6:55 PM, Wayne Kline wrote:
>>
>>> I think the 10 minutes is the welding time, surly not the set up "
>>> installing the pieces into the welding Jig "  and from my observation
>>> only  the bottom and top area plates ( which would have the pillow block
>>> brackets pre welded on  ) are the only area which would require multiple
>>> passes .
>>>
>>> With big Arco or Miller Flux core  machines .... 10 min  would be on the
>>> low end  of time  But 30 to 35 min from raw pieces to  finished craned off
>>> unit more like it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Wayne W3EA
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: TowerTalk <towertalk-bounces at contesting.com> on behalf of EZ Rhino
>>> <EZRhino at fastmovers.biz>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 2, 2017 6:44 PM
>>> To: Towertalk Reflector
>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] US Tower price increase
>>>
>>> Ten minutes huh?  I want to see that.   Send me a video.
>>>
>>> Chris
>>> KF7P
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 2, 2017, at 16:26 , Kevin wrote:
>>>
>>> Chris,
>>>
>>> I used to do it for a living. I was certified to weld just about anything
>>> anywhere, except underwater.
>>>
>>> They are NOT a start up. They've had all the tooling and "machinery" for
>>> many years now. ALL of their crank ups are a variation of 5 or 6  20' tower
>>> sections whose jigs were built years ago. I could probably weld one in 10
>>> minutes, even with my poor eyesight and prosthetic leg.
>>>
>>> Press brakes, CNC Plasma tables, CNC lathes, welders, etc...don't need
>>> replacing very often, if ever, given proper maintenance. We had a WWII
>>> turret lathe that still put out very good parts, maybe not CNC quality but
>>> good enough.
>>>
>>> They're building towers not high performance engines or wrist watches.
>>>
>>> Kinda funny that Tashjian hasn't raised their prices by a factor of
>>> three. They're 20 miles apart and probably have quite a few of the same
>>> suppliers.
>>>
>>> They simply don't want to be in the amateur market any longer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/2/2017 4:56 PM, EZ Rhino wrote:
>>>
>>>> Good points Jim.
>>>>
>>>> I may also add that a lot of us (including myself, at times) are
>>>> spoiled.  We clickety click click on line, and two days later a product is
>>>> in our mailbox.  We no longer realize how things are manufactured or the
>>>> time, energy and cost associated with producing a product.
>>>>
>>>> Metal fabrication isn't an inexpensive or easy business to be in.  The
>>>> machinery needed to fabricate a tower is expensive, er, I mean, EXPENSIVE!
>>>> and HUGE!  CNC plasma tables, press brakes, welding equipment, CNC benders,
>>>> jigs, fixturing tables, tooling, tooling, and more tooling, and qualified
>>>> experienced operators of this machinery, and don't forget a huge building
>>>> that can store all this stuff.  Metal fab is a slow process, lots of labor,
>>>> and lots of trial and error to figure out how to make something that
>>>> functions correctly.  Then you need to figure out the most economical way
>>>> to mass produce the product with the least labor as possible.  It's not
>>>> easy.
>>>>
>>>> I am not excusing the price increases at UST, as they do sound out of
>>>> line.  But I do think getting a new 50-foot crank up for $3k is a bargain!
>>>>
>>>> Also watch the used market, where you can get a real deal on some used
>>>> stuff.  I watched the classifieds like a hawk for almost a year, finally
>>>> found a TriEx LM470 that was still horizontal, still partially crated,
>>>> never installed, and got it for a song.
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>> KF7P
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 2, 2017, at 15:43 , jimlux wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 1/2/17 11:38 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Great response, Jim. BUT -- the increase noted by the original poster
>>>>> was that the increase was overnight!
>>>>>
>>>>> Several possible reasons for this. One is that business operations for
>>>>> the ham market are often supported by higher volume and higher margin
>>>>> operations for other markets. When those other markets fall apart, they
>>>>> no longer support the ham market, or contribute to economies of scale
>>>>> that allow lower prices.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another is corporate mergers, which can change business priorities,
>>>>> change where products are manufactured.
>>>>>
>>>>> But assuming corporate greed as the reason for all such price increases
>>>>> is unreasonable. It certainly can be, but there are many other reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>> yes, I agree.. usually it's a "it's not economic to sell at that price
>>>> any more, compared to other products".  I was more commenting on the "back
>>>> in 85" comment.
>>>>
>>>> I know someone who is buying 50 tower trailers with 100+ ft towers on
>>>> them. That's a much better sale proposition than onsie, twosie sales to
>>>> individuals.  Whether through distribution or not, the support costs tend
>>>> to be "per customer" not "per tower".
>>>>
>>>> As for the overnight x3... That's a "we don't really want to be in this
>>>> business" or "our cost structure radically changed" kind of increase.
>>>>
>>>> I've also seen that when you have a business founder of a family
>>>> operated business retires/sells out: the founder didn't have any debt
>>>> service costs, was willing to live out whatever margin there was.  The new
>>>> owner had to get a loan to buy the business and actually has to pay
>>>> employees a wage and benefits - all of a sudden instead of "my wife does
>>>> the assembly and we're on the same insurance" it's "I've got to pay a
>>>> reasonable wage and provide vacation, insurance, etc.", I've got to pay
>>>> rent and storage costs, I've got to pay for the "cost of money".
>>>>
>>>> A similar phenomenon occurs when a partner retires/dies/leaves and the
>>>> remaining partners have to buy them out.
>>>>
>>>> Or, it's just - we don't want to leave existing customers totally in the
>>>> lurch, but we can't subsidize them either - we'll be responsible and at
>>>> least make parts available, but at cost that is basically "fabricate from
>>>> scratch individually"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>
>>> TowerTalk Info Page - Contesting<http://lists.contes
>>> ting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk>
>>> lists.contesting.com
>>> TowerTalk is for discussion of tower and HF antenna construction topics.
>>> TT members have lots of helpful information and are happy to share it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>
>>> TowerTalk Info Page - Contesting<http://lists.contes
>>> ting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk>
>>> lists.contesting.com
>>> TowerTalk is for discussion of tower and HF antenna construction topics.
>>> TT members have lots of helpful information and are happy to share it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> R. Kevin Stover
>>> AC0H
>>> ARRL
>>> FISTS #11993
>>> SKCC #215
>>> NAQCC #3441
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>
>>> TowerTalk Info Page - Contesting<http://lists.contes
>>> ting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk>
>>> lists.contesting.com
>>> TowerTalk is for discussion of tower and HF antenna construction topics.
>>> TT members have lots of helpful information and are happy to share it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>
>>> TowerTalk Info Page - Contesting<http://lists.contes
>>> ting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk>
>>> lists.contesting.com
>>> TowerTalk is for discussion of tower and HF antenna construction topics.
>>> TT members have lots of helpful information and are happy to share it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> R. Kevin Stover
>> AC0H
>> ARRL
>> FISTS #11993
>> SKCC #215
>> NAQCC #3441
>>
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>