[UK-CONTEST] cqwwwpx

[Andrew]

This response if very US-centric, but it shows what can be done if you 
put your mind to it and engineer things properly!

It doesn't really matter if antennas are in line of sight of each other 
or not.  All the big M/M stations in the US, running 1500W, have one run 
station and one (interlocked) mult station on the each band with the 
antennas in full view of each other.  I know at W3LPL, where I've been 
operating for the past four years, the mult radio can listen to within 
about 15kHz of the run radio either using a different stack of yagis or 
one of the Beverages.  All Franks transmit antennas are within 175m of 
each other and the longest diametric distance from the main antennas to 
the furthest tip of the longest Beverage is about 450m, well within the 
500m allowable circle.

Another example is the Field Day group I operate with.  W3AO, running 
100W, can have up to four stations on the same band simultaneously (SSB, 
CW, DATA and the 'Get On The Air' station).  Last year we operated in 
the 24A category which means we had, theoretically, the capability of 
having 24 transmitters on the air simultaneously!  At any one time, we 
had *at least* 15 radios running.  US Field Day rules dictate that all 
antennas must to be within a 1000ft (~300m) circle.  Within that 1000ft 
circle, we manage to install 14x50ft(?) masts supporting a total of (I 
think) 24 antennas (yagis, dipoles, etc)!  This complete set of antenna 
are usually installed in about 6-7 hours, though a set-up crew of at 
least 30 people certainly helps there.  There is an interesting 
presentation of the W3AO effort at 
http://www.kkn.net/dayton2009/W3AO_2009.pdf if anyone wants to see a few 
pictures of the setup.

If the rules allowed it, all the big US M/M stations would have no 
problem running interleaved stations less than 20kHz apart.  Personally, 
I wouldn't want this to happen, but the engineering in the stations 
would certainly allow it.

Vy 73,

Andrew AC6WI / GI0NWG



On 30/05/11 11:31, Bob Henderson wrote:
> Rule f) applies to all entrants.  It is possible to have four antennas on
> the same band located within a 500m diameter circle with no two antennas in
> line of sight to another.
>
> Terrain old man, terrain.
>
> Bob, 5B4AGN
>
> On 30 May 2011 15:07, Danny Higgins<danny.higgins at keme.co.uk>  wrote:
>
>> Tom, it depends on how big your QTH is:
>>
>> (f) All operation must take place from one operating site. Transmitters and
>> receivers must be located within a 500-meter diameter circle or within the
>> property limits of the station licensee, whichever is greater. All antennas
>> must be physically connected by wires to the transmitters and receivers
>> used
>> by the entrant.
>>
>> One rule for the rich, and one for the rest of us!
>>
>> Danny, G3XVR
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: uk-contest-bounces at contesting.com
>> [mailto:uk-contest-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tom GM4FDM
>> Sent: 30 May 2011 16:01
>> To: uk-contest at contesting.com
>> Subject: Re: [UK-CONTEST] cqwwwpx
>>
>> Isnt there a 500m rule for antennas?
>>
>>
>> Tom
>> GM4FDM
>>
>>
>>
>> On 30/05/2011 15:25, Bob Henderson wrote:
>>> The idea is that both stations keep their respective frequencies busy by
>>> interleaving their Qs such that this situation doesn't really arise.  In
>> a
>>> multi-op station there will typically be two operators on a band, each
>> with
>>> his own transceiver but both interlocked to prevent the 2 x signal
>>> infringement.  I understand that two operators well practised in this
>>> particular technique can reliably achieve 140% individual run rate.  So
>> each
>>> station is doing 70% rate of a top flight operator i.e hitting 100 -
>>> 150Q/hr.  Essentially when one transmits the other receives and vice
>> versa.
>>> Both frequencies stay pretty busy. :-)
>>>
>>> This frequency busy but apparently unoccupied phenomena is mostly
>> associated
>>> with SO2R stations where a single operator is QRV on two frequencies.
>>>
>>> Incidentally, I am aware of four operators each with their own
>> transceiver
>>> and antennas having been deployed on a single band.  Two running
>> interleaved
>>> piles and two sweeping for mults.  Only one carrier transmitted at any
>> one
>>> time to keep inside the rules of course.
>>>
>>> Terrain is key to this kind of game, as each stations antennas should be
>> out
>>> of sight of the others on the same band.  Lots of dosh helps too.
>>>
>>> Bob, 5B4AGN
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 30 May 2011 13:22, Rob
>> Harrison<robharrison at g8hgn.freeserve.co.uk>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> First off let me say I don't operate on HF. But I understand what is
>> going
>>>> on technically.
>>>>
>>>> However what happens when another station finds what he thinks is a
>> clear
>>>> freaquency only to be told the frequency is occupied by the said station
>> who
>>>> is actually on a different frequency, .i.e. how does the said station
>> keep
>>>> two active frequencies when only transmitting on one, and if he does,
>>>> doesn't that infringe the rules?
>>>>
>>>> Bob G8HGN
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Henderson"<bob.5b4agn at gmail.com
>>>
>>>> To: "Callum McC"<callum at mccormick.uk.com>
>>>> Cc: "UK Contest Reflector"<uk-contest at contesting.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 1:46 PM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [UK-CONTEST] cqwwwpx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Exactly Callum.
>>>>>
>>>>> The sponsors are the arbiters and so far they've considered it to be
>>>>> within
>>>>> the rules.  BUT as G3SXW suggests; things may be about to change.  At
>>>>> least
>>>>> wrt CQWW.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob, 5B4AGN
>>>>>
>>>>> On 30 May 2011 12:24, Callum McC<callum at mccormick.uk.com>   wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>    >>>   Whether it was within the spirit of the contest or not
>>>>>> The rules of the game are to win, within the rules. That's the spirit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are either within the rules - or not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C.