[UK-CONTEST] 2012 UKAC = Rule canges
Tony Collett
tony.nbs at btinternet.com
Sun Jan 1 09:17:23 PST 2012
" I dont understand why AO has the lower power limit"
- I'd guess this is to stop the practice of strategically choosing which section to enter based on number of entries rather than actual power used, particularly noticeable in SHF/UHF contests.
Goes back to the comments on strange results when normalising the sessions. A QRP station entering a poorly supported AO section earns more points for a club than by coming near the bottom of their real section....
Interesting observations Malcom - food for thought somewhere.
73
Tony G4NBS
--- On Sun, 1/1/12, Rob Harrison <robharrison at g8hgn.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
From: Rob Harrison <robharrison at g8hgn.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [UK-CONTEST] 2012 UKAC = Rule canges
To: "UK Contest List" <uk-contest at contesting.com>
Date: Sunday, 1 January, 2012, 17:06
Hi Malcolm,
Thanks for that, quite enlightening.
Maybe someone on CC could comment as to why it's not used.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Malcolm Bryan" <malcolm.bryan at googlemail.com>
To: "UK Contest List" <uk-contest at contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: [UK-CONTEST] 2012 UKAC = Rule canges
> Hi Bob
> Yes I completely agree. People seem to forget that a bigger antenna gives
> you gain on receive as well. Increasing your power does not. There are
> also
> plenty of reasons for running 50W rather than 100W especially if you are
> portable.
>
> Notwithstanding the differences of height asl and surrounding scenery
> which
> will always remain outside the scope of any rules, you have the following
> situation for a selection of stations.
>
> Tx gains quoted relative to 100W 10 ele (approx I agree)
>
> Pwr Ant tx gain rx gain sec
> 10W 10 ele -10dB 0dB AL
> 50W 10 ele -3dB 0dB AR
> 100W 10 ele 0dB 0dB AR
> 400W 10 ele +6dB 0dB AO
>
> 10W 20 ele -7dB +3dB AL
> 50W 20 ele 0dB +3dB AR
> 100W 20 ele +3dB +3dB AR
> 400W 20 ele +9dB +3dB AO
>
> 10W 2x10 ele -7dB +3dB AX
> 50W 2x10 ele 0dB +3dB AX
> 100W 2x10 ele +3dB +3dB AX
> 400W 2x10 ele +9dB +3dB AO
>
> If you started from scratch writing a set of rules you would never write
> them to get stations into the sections above (I hope) so I suspect much of
> the problem is the continuing evolution of the rules.
>
> I dont understand why AO has the lower power limit, if it didnt things
> wouldnt be so bad although it has always vexed me that one very long
> antenna is allowed in AR but a stacked array with identical gain has to go
> into AO!
>
> 73
> Malcolm
> G8MCA /F1VNR
>
>
> On 1 January 2012 16:21, Rob Harrison
> <robharrison at g8hgn.freeserve.co.uk>wrote:
>
>> Hi Malcolm,
>>
>> I see the reasoning and that's fine, so why doesn't multi-antenna/lower
>> power situation get consideration. I'm in a minority but so is the other
>> situation. one gets the ok, one doesn't.
>>
>> I've supported these contests continually, from their original beginings
>> as the Cumulatives way back, and last year after the changes. But I'm
>> finding it hard to find the will to continue that support for 2012.
>>
>> 73 Bob
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Malcolm Bryan" <
>> malcolm.bryan at googlemail.com>
>> To: "UK Contest List" <uk-contest at contesting.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 4:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [UK-CONTEST] 2012 UKAC = Rule canges
>>
>>
>> Hi Bob
>>>
>>> My guess is there are very few with multiple fixed antennas but no
>>> rotator.
>>> Most likely I would think is a fixed horizontal beam (in the loft) and a
>>> vertical for FM.
>>>
>>> As it happens I run this sort of setup at the French QTH. I live in a
>>> valley on a north facing slope. My only sensible VHF takeoff is NE so I
>>> have a 4 ele in the loft beamed that way which allows me to work ON, PA
>>> etc. I also have a 4 ele on 313 deg pointing at UK but with a ridge 50m
>>> higher than me in the way. The 4 ele is wide enough to cover the UK
>>> without
>>> rotating.
>>>
>>> However, there is no need to use the NE antenna in UKACs as I get no
>>> points
>>> for working non UK stations !!!! I also have a omni directional vertical
>>> for working FM mobiles
>>>
>>> My guess is this is a relatively unusual set of circumstances and is the
>>> main reason I generally do UKACs from the portable location on top of
>>> the
>>> ridge. However, I support the changes if it gets other people on.
>>>
>>> 73
>>> Malcolm
>>> G8MCA / F1VNR
>>>
>>> On 1 January 2012 15:49, Rob Harrison <robharrison at g8hgn.freeserve.**
>>> co.uk <robharrison at g8hgn.freeserve.co.uk>>wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Bob doesn't prefer to run 50w into 2x15, it's my surrounding
>>>> circumstances
>>>> and it's my day to day set-up, unlike some I don't change my antennas
>>>> every
>>>> week to suit contests. I "chose " AX as I couldn't enter AR, a more
>>>> appropriate section for my ERP.
>>>>
>>>> At least I've got some support from Tony and Malcolm, re multi-antennas
>>>> and lower power. I think more debate is needed to sort this one out,
>>>> and
>>>> to
>>>> come up with workable solutions to the objections to ERP that CC will
>>>> run
>>>> with.
>>>>
>>>> As for the thinking behind multiple fixed antennas at a home location,
>>>> is
>>>> anyone actually doing this, or know anyone who is?
>>>>
>>>> Bob G8HGN
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Ray James
>>>> To: Tony Collett ; Rob Harrison ; uk-contests
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 3:14 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [UK-CONTEST] 2012 UKAC = Rule canges
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Tony,
>>>> Just checked Bob's set up and see it's 2x15el phased not two separate
>>>> rotatable systems.
>>>> Right, that continues to place him in the AO or AX section as he chose
>>>> last year.
>>>> Therefore it has nothing to do with my suggestion for the AR section.
>>>> The fact Bob prefers to run with an antenna system apt for AO but a
>>>> power
>>>> level applicable to AR is his choice.
>>>> Looking forward to lots of contacts with you in 2012 Tony.
>>>>
>>>> HNY.
>>>> 73 Ray GM4CXM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>>>> ------------------
>>>> From: Tony Collett <tony.nbs at btinternet.com>
>>>> To: Rob Harrison
>>>> <robharrison at g8hgn.freeserve.**co.uk<robharrison at g8hgn.freeserve.co.uk>>;
>>>> uk-contests <
>>>> uk-contest at contesting.com>; Ray James <gm4cxm at yahoo.co.uk>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, 1 January 2012, 14:32
>>>> Subject: Re: [UK-CONTEST] 2012 UKAC = Rule canges
>>>>
>>>> I see the minefield has been opened!
>>>>
>>>> The wording desperately needs clarifying, but to what?
>>>> Bob's problem is exactly as per your last paragraph Ray - less than
>>>> 100W
>>>> but using 2 phased (stacked) aerials. Not enough power to be
>>>> competetive
>>>> in
>>>> AO, can't enter AR even under the new rules so has to be AX.
>>>>
>>>> When coming back on 23 I had to bin my 4*23ele system in favour of a
>>>> single 55ele so I could enter AR with my 25W, I'm sure others have done
>>>> similar things with power and/or aerial changes.
>>>>
>>>> The basic idea is a good one, just needs a bit more thought put to how
>>>> best to implement it. Personally I think a maximum number of aerials
>>>> allowed needs setting if you want average home stations to be able to
>>>> compete against those living in large real estates or /P.
>>>>
>>>> Look forward to working you all in 2012
>>>> 73
>>>> Tony G4NBS
>>>>
>>>> --- On Sun, 1/1/12, Ray James <gm4cxm at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Ray James <gm4cxm at yahoo.co.uk>
>>>> Subject: Re: [UK-CONTEST] 2012 UKAC = Rule canges
>>>> To: "Rob Harrison"
>>>> <robharrison at g8hgn.freeserve.**co.uk<robharrison at g8hgn.freeserve.co.uk>>,
>>>> "uk-contests" <
>>>> uk-contest at contesting.com>
>>>> Date: Sunday, 1 January, 2012, 14:14
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>> I thought what I wrote was pretty clear. Obviously not!
>>>>
>>>> "Restricted" and "Low Power" no more than 100w/no more than 10w and
>>>> "Only one horizontal or vertically polarised fixed or rotatable
>>>> antenna
>>>> may be used at any one time".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Running less than 100w and more than 10w would put you in the AR
>>>> section
>>>> as long as you're only using one of your 2 single antenna rotatable
>>>> systems
>>>> at any given time.
>>>> It would be unusual to be two horizontal rotatable single horizontal
>>>> yagis so lets assume its a 12el horizontal and you also have an 8el
>>>> vertically polarised antenna on another support.
>>>> In your case I am suggesting switching between both rotary systems
>>>> would
>>>> permitted. Simple. Same for someone with a horizontal yagi and a
>>>> colinear,
>>>> simple and a typical VHF/UHF station arrangement.
>>>> What is not typical and probably very rare indeed is someone with
>>>> multiple fixed yagis as per the current wording. I'm suggesting
>>>> simplifying
>>>> it to a typical amateur antenna set up.
>>>>
>>>> The important point for AR is you are only using ONE antenna at any
>>>> given
>>>> time, otherwise you'd be in the AO section if for example you were
>>>> splitting power to another antenna.
>>>> 73 HNY Ray GM4CXM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**__
>>>> From: Rob Harrison
>>>> <robharrison at g8hgn.freeserve.**co.uk<robharrison at g8hgn.freeserve.co.uk>
>>>> >
>>>> To: uk-contests <uk-contest at contesting.com>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, 1 January 2012, 12:03
>>>> Subject: Re: [UK-CONTEST] 2012 UKAC = Rule canges
>>>>
>>>> "Open" is very straightforward, over 100w up to 400w and no antenna
>>>> restrictions.
>>>>
>>>> "Restricted" and "Low Power" no more than 100w/no more than 10w and
>>>> "Only
>>>> one horizontal or vertically polarised fixed or rotatable antenna may
>>>> be
>>>> used at any one time".
>>>>
>>>> Ok so where does that leave myself and a few others who have 2
>>>> rotatable
>>>> antennas by run less than 100W per band.
>>>>
>>>> Can't do AO not enough TX power, can't do AR too many antennas, can't
>>>> do
>>>> AL too much power. So AX is forced on us.
>>>>
>>>> If you can alter the rules to accomodate those with beams and
>>>> verticals,
>>>> surely a small tweak could accomodate us. Two beams and 50W is on a par
>>>> with one beam and 100W I would think.
>>>>
>>>> Why not grasp the nettle and go for ERP sections? Don't say you can't
>>>> police it, most people are honest and would put down what they are
>>>> using,
>>>> you can't police most of the rules anyway, as has been said many times
>>>> on
>>>> here, and by CC members.
>>>>
>>>> 73 Bob G8HGN
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>>
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