[VHFcontesting] VHFcontesting Digest, Vol 32, Issue 48

[frank bechdoldt]

someone should help the guy with the 790

> [Original Message]
> From: <vhfcontesting-request at contesting.com>
> To: <vhfcontesting at contesting.com>
> Date: 8/18/2005 6:47:25 PM
> Subject: VHFcontesting Digest, Vol 32, Issue 48
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Innocent until proven guilty (Tree)
>    2. Re: Innocent until proven guilty (frank bechdoldt)
>    3. Re: Innocent until proven guilty (frank bechdoldt)
>    4. Re: Captivated circling rovers 10%! (Tim Ertl (KE3HT))
>    5. Re: What about me? I am captive. (Ray J)
>    6. roverroverrover (Sean Kutzko)
>    7. Re: What about me? I am captive. (Bob Naumann  - W5OV)
>    8. Re: Captivated circling rovers 10%! (frank bechdoldt)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:04:25 -0700
> From: Tree <tree at kkn.net>
> Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] Innocent until proven guilty
> To: vhfcontesting at contesting.com
> Message-ID: <20050819010425.GA27707 at kkn.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Thu, Aug 18, 2005 at 09:09:45PM -0400, Bill Burgess wrote:
>
> > Either the "Great American Way" is backwards, making you guilty on
accusation until you can prove your innocence, or a few here have it all
backwards, for I still am seeing this same old "make those we accuse prove
their innocence."
> > 
> > Any American lawyers reading this?
>
> This is not a court of law - it is a public debate about an issue.  
>
> Again, if you want to see a grid circling "captive" rover - please look 
> over this log:
>
> http://www.kkn.net/~k5tr/logs/n6zz-Jan-2005.log
>
> Has W2SZ (or someone representing them) come forward to say they do not
use
> (or never did use) captive rovers?
>
> Again - except for the nearly impossible to prove rule - they aren't 
> illegal.
>
> It sounds like W2SZ has encouraged rovers to work other stations so they 
> aren't captive.  I think it is great that W2SZ is doing this.
>
> Tree
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:07:58 -0700
> From: "frank bechdoldt" <k3uhf at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] Innocent until proven guilty
> To: "Bill Burgess" <ve3cru at rac.ca>, vhfcontesting at contesting.com
> Message-ID: <410-2200585191758140 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> THATS IT
>
> BLAME CANADA!
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Bill Burgess <ve3cru at rac.ca>
> > To: <vhfcontesting at contesting.com>
> > Date: 8/18/2005 5:54:43 PM
> > Subject: [VHFcontesting] Innocent until proven guilty
> >
> > In Canada, a person is deemed innocent until proven guilty.
> >
> > Either the "Great American Way" is backwards, making you guilty on
> accusation until you can prove your innocence, or a few here have it all
> backwards, for I still am seeing this same old "make those we accuse prove
> their innocence."
> >
> > Any American lawyers reading this?
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > Email: ve3cru at rac.ca
> >          
> > _______________________________________________
> > VHFcontesting mailing list
> > VHFcontesting at contesting.com
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/vhfcontesting
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:14:34 -0700
> From: "frank bechdoldt" <k3uhf at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] Innocent until proven guilty
> To: "Bill Burgess" <ve3cru at rac.ca>, vhfcontesting at contesting.com
> Message-ID: <410-22005851911434437 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>
> I almost dragged and dropped that log here as proof
>
> Imaginge that log meaning something in a hf contest.
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Bill Burgess <ve3cru at rac.ca>
> > To: <vhfcontesting at contesting.com>
> > Date: 8/18/2005 5:54:43 PM
> > Subject: [VHFcontesting] Innocent until proven guilty
> >
> > In Canada, a person is deemed innocent until proven guilty.
> >
> > Either the "Great American Way" is backwards, making you guilty on
> accusation until you can prove your innocence, or a few here have it all
> backwards, for I still am seeing this same old "make those we accuse prove
> their innocence."
> >
> > Any American lawyers reading this?
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > Email: ve3cru at rac.ca
> >          
> > _______________________________________________
> > VHFcontesting mailing list
> > VHFcontesting at contesting.com
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/vhfcontesting
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:21:52 -0400
> From: "Tim Ertl (KE3HT)" <ke3ht at ke3ht.org>
> Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] Captivated circling rovers 10%!
> To: "'Vhfcontesting'" <vhfcontesting at contesting.com>
> Message-ID: <200508190122.j7J1MEDX000727 at ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="windows-1250"
>
> Frank has defined captive as 10% of my score, another said 10% of qso's
with
> one station(see below). Most of the comments I have received about my
> previous post seemed to feel that I was not captive. I even made my logs
> available to everyone. In June 10% of 210 QSO's is 21 QSO's. I would be
> required to not make more than 21 QSO's with any single station or be
> accused of being captive. If the ARRL makes a rule that says a rover with
> over 10% is captive and becomes a checklog or something like that then who
> is going to want to QSO with me? Check out my June 2005 log posted for
> everyone to see. You will see that I am a captive rover of W2SZ just
because
> they are a loud easy station to work. I didn't even work them from all
> grids. In other contests you would see me as captive to other stations
like
> N2PA AND W2SZ at the same time.
>
> Like I said in my first post, I can be considered captive at least by
k3uhf.
> 10% was also mentioned on this list last February during the review of the
> ARRL contest committee suggestions. I am worried because many of the loud
> minority seem to think I am captive because I want to do distances. 
>
> Tim
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:15:58 -0700
> From: "frank bechdoldt" <k3uhf at earthlink.net>
> <snip>
> I urge all those who still care and might be able to do something about
> this to ask the Arrl to allow a maximum of 10% of a stations points to
come
> from another station.  In this case these 2 could of picked the qsos where
> they get unique multipliers thus to not punish them for being in the
middle
> of nowhere. And the group of captivated circling rovers would have to grow
> to the size of 10.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Tim
>
> Tim Ertl KE3HT/r 
> QSL via CBA
> http://www.ke3ht.org/rover
> ke3ht at ke3ht.org
>  
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/75 - Release Date: 8/17/2005
>  
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:37:52 -0500
> From: Ray J <ray at w9ray.org>
> Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] What about me? I am captive.
> To: vhfcontesting at contesting.com
> Message-ID: <430537F0.3050809 at w9ray.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> is that all u can dig up.. i thought he said
>
> At LEAST have
> something better than the 'blurry photograph of bigfoot' type of
> evidence that seems to exist so far...
>
>
>  
> their website says they did something like this in the 1970s....
>
> "They introduced the idea of microwave portable stations, and sent those 
> microwave stations to many nearby sections" ....
>
> http://www.mgef.org/history.htm
>
> w9ray
>
>
>
>
> frank bechdoldt wrote:
>
> >the proof was in QST last summer they showed it in an article. 
> >Though not your clubs call sign. Nor any mention of that club.
> >A club sending out individual stations in not nearly as bad as a group
> >circling each other.
> >that being said I would never elmer kids to only work a single station.
> >This forum is for serious issues too and I believe its serious.
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >>[Original Message]
> >>From: Bill Katt <alienmenace at gmail.com>
> >>To: Bob Naumann - W5OV <w5ov at w5ov.com>
> >>Cc: <vhfcontesting at contesting.com>
> >>Date: 8/18/2005 5:18:42 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] What about me? I am captive.
> >>
> >>Sir, and others of your unfortunate opinions,
> >>
> >>  It would be appreciated if you would stop badmouthing W2SZ.  It is
> >>perhaps worth mentioning, for those who may not know, that W2SZ is a
> >>callsign granted to a SMALL CLUB AT RPI.  That's Rensselaer
> >>Polytechnic Institute, for those who may not know.  It's a small
> >>school in Troy, NY where geeks from around the country gather to
> >>pursue degrees in engineering, science, and the like.
> >>
> >>  It is certainly worth mentioning that this list is freely available
> >>to any who would search it out.  Similarly, it is worth mentioning
> >>that many amateur radio operators are trained as HAMs as children,
> >>growing up with a father or mother who operates.  Accordingly, these
> >>young HAMs may contest, or simply read this list, unbeknownst to those
> >>regulars in attendance.
> >>
> >>  Further, some of these young operators may sometime attend RPI, and
> >>have the chance to participate in the amateur radio club W2SZ while
> >>there.  As a former officer of said club, I know that it is difficult
> >>lately to attract people to this particular hobby, as with the advent
> >>of instant messaging, cell phones, and the like, the possibility of
> >>being able to talk to persons miles if not countries away has lost
> >>some novelty and thus appeal.
> >>
> >>  This being said, it is hard enough to attract new person to this
> >>hobby without there being submitted for public perusal various
> >>incentives to avoid it.  It is similarly hard to suggest to
> >>independant amateur enthusiasts the benefits of joining a school club,
> >>which for many has provided a wonderful place to congregate, discuss
> >>ideas, etc., without those potential members having thrown in their
> >>face that being a member of W2SZ, or even a former member, somehow
> >>taints them and their opinions, making them 'less than HAMs' in a
> >>way...  this should not be allowed.  Many might consider this outright
> >>slander, as the concept presented thus far by the accusers seems to be
> >>'guilty of anything we invent till proven innocent, and then still
> >>guilty anyways'.
> >>
> >>  You seem most interested in inventing bogey men, scaring children so
> >>they'll behave and 'rove properly' or some such nonsense.  That the
> >>primary arguments in favor of captivated roving are a desire to teach
> >>HAMs new techniques, expand band use, and encourage activity during
> >>contests while the primary arguments against captive rovers are that
> >>they dare to use non-standard (but still quite legal) portions of
> >>bands, possibly make their schedules in collaboration with others, do
> >>not work enough stations to be considered 'real rovers', and are
> >>affiliated with W2SZ (which seems to be a major component of at least
> >>some definitions) is truly frightening.
> >>
> >>  That many here would condemn a rover trying his or her best merely
> >>because of minimal contacts made, rather than congratulating him or
> >>her, is similarly terrifying.
> >>
> >>  That the comment 'Please, think when able, sir. Then speak.' by Dave
> >>Page was interpreted as a desire to restrict free speech (it being the
> >>only part of Page's comments that could be interpreted to mean 'keep
> >>your mouth shut') is sort of funny, really.
> >>
> >>  However, that ANY of this so called evil and taint might be
> >>associated with a school club whos goal is to share amateur radio with
> >>students on campus, and to have a good time doing it, is truly
> >>sinister.
> >>
> >>  If those on this list really must continue believing in the 'captive
> >>rover' myth, and accusing various rovers, stations and operators of
> >>participating, please come forward with proof.  At LEAST have
> >>something better than the 'blurry photograph of bigfoot' type of
> >>evidence that seems to exist so far.  But regardless of what may be
> >>said, PLEASE stop insulting those associated with W2SZ merely because
> >>they're associated with W2SZ.
> >>
> >>  Propagation is part of radio, I realise this.  However, I somehow
> >>doubt that the forefathers of the electron and other waveforms thought
> >>that the propagation of rumors would become so common.  But leave the
> >>guilt by association out of it.  It's not fair to those who might have
> >>a good time with a good radio club to tell them that many HAMs
> >>countrywide will suddenly think of them as dirt if they let themselves
> >>join up.  And FAIRNESS is what this whole captive-rover spiel is
> >>about, isn't it?
> >>
> >>On 8/18/05, Bob Naumann - W5OV <w5ov at w5ov.com> wrote:
> >>    
> >>
> >>>KD3NC said:
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>>>My position is my own and not at all representative of W2SZ's
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>operators or crew. <
> >>>
> >>>Dave,
> >>>
> >>>My noting of your association with W2SZ was not to imply that you
> >>>represented them, but rather to show that you are biased in this
> >>>discussion.
> >>>
> >>>If you choose to continue to deny the fact that all of those captive
> >>>rovers are part of the W2SZ team, and therefore should be subject to
> >>>the rules as I described earlier, please feel free to continue living
> >>>in denial.
> >>>
> >>>I am going to continue to speak out, and express my very differing
> >>>opinion.
> >>>
> >>>You also seem to think that this somehow is driven by my needing to
> >>>improve my score, or will give me some competitive advantage, wrong
> >>>again.
> >>>
> >>>Did you think I was empowered to change the rules?  Thanks, but that is
> >>>done by people at or directed by the people at the ARRL HQ.
> >>>
> >>>Strange that you mention Stalin, since you want to prevent me from
> >>>speaking freely.
> >>>
> >>>73,
> >>>Bob W5OV
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>VHFcontesting mailing list
> >>>VHFcontesting at contesting.com
> >>>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/vhfcontesting
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>VHFcontesting mailing list
> >>VHFcontesting at contesting.com
> >>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/vhfcontesting
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >VHFcontesting mailing list
> >VHFcontesting at contesting.com
> >http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/vhfcontesting
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:43:08 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Sean Kutzko <kx9x at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [VHFcontesting] roverroverrover
> To: vhfcontesting at contesting.com
> Message-ID: <20050819014308.30527.qmail at web50106.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Mary Mother Of GOD, make it stop!
>
>
captiverovercaptiverovercaptiverovercaptiveroverarfarfarfarfarfarfarfrogerwi
lcobarkbarkmoomoomoooinkoinkbaaabaaablacksheep
>
>
>
>
>
> Sean Kutzko, Amateur Radio KX9X
> Gillespie, IL       Grid EM59cd
>    http://www.seankutzko.com
>
> "Nothing changes if nothing changes."
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:44:51 -0500
> From: "Bob Naumann  - W5OV" <W5OV at W5OV.com>
> Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] What about me? I am captive.
> To: <vhfcontesting at contesting.com>
> Message-ID: <20050819014457.C534F319260 at dayton.akorn.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
> KD3NC said:
>
> >> Obviously this is an emotional topic for some people. And emotion
impairs
> reason. 
>
> Agreed.  I rest my case.
>
> 73,
> Bob W5OV
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:47:00 -0700
> From: "frank bechdoldt" <k3uhf at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] Captivated circling rovers 10%!
> To: "Tim Ertl (KE3HT)" <ke3ht at ke3ht.org>,	"vhfcontesting"
> 	<vhfcontesting at contesting.com>
> Message-ID: <410-2200585191470734 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Well I never mentioned you by call or name, Im bothered more by the 6's
> that go to texas.
>
> Anway with the 2/3 calls I would think there would be twice as many
> stations as me out west.
> As a rover I would think there is time for you to work your friends and
> everyone else too.
> Perhaps that is aumish counrty and theres nothing beyond spark gap
> generators out there (hi hi)
> In a recent contest I worked 700ish qsos,
> in that 700 qsos I worked 170 differnt opperators.
> The most frequent opperator reached about 50-60 qsos on 6 bands.
> Why? he was moving too.
> The closest I was to this man during the whole contest?
> Perhaps 100 miles and always 2 grid squares away.
> So i circled but not in the same orbit.
> It worked because we both had yagis on the roof.
> I have never made skeds, more than saying the route i intend to take.
> I can not predict time spent where because I stop and harvest all that I
> can hear.
> I often do not reach the end of my desired trek.
> Well I never have.
>
> They were in Canada on vancouver island and I dont blamr them for
> travelling together.
>
> A modifier could be added that its 10 percent only if you go above 50k
> points.
>
> Id sure like minutes to those meetings...
>
> k3uhf
>
>
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Tim Ertl (KE3HT) <ke3ht at ke3ht.org>
> > To: Vhfcontesting <vhfcontesting at contesting.com>
> > Date: 8/18/2005 6:22:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] Captivated circling rovers 10%!
> >
> > Frank has defined captive as 10% of my score, another said 10% of qso's
> with
> > one station(see below). Most of the comments I have received about my
> > previous post seemed to feel that I was not captive. I even made my logs
> > available to everyone. In June 10% of 210 QSO's is 21 QSO's. I would be
> > required to not make more than 21 QSO's with any single station or be
> > accused of being captive. If the ARRL makes a rule that says a rover
with
> > over 10% is captive and becomes a checklog or something like that then
who
> > is going to want to QSO with me? Check out my June 2005 log posted for
> > everyone to see. You will see that I am a captive rover of W2SZ just
> because
> > they are a loud easy station to work. I didn't even work them from all
> > grids. In other contests you would see me as captive to other stations
> like
> > N2PA AND W2SZ at the same time.
> >
> > Like I said in my first post, I can be considered captive at least by
> k3uhf.
> > 10% was also mentioned on this list last February during the review of
the
> > ARRL contest committee suggestions. I am worried because many of the
loud
> > minority seem to think I am captive because I want to do distances. 
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:15:58 -0700
> > From: "frank bechdoldt" <k3uhf at earthlink.net>
> > <snip>
> > I urge all those who still care and might be able to do something about
> > this to ask the Arrl to allow a maximum of 10% of a stations points to
> come
> > from another station.  In this case these 2 could of picked the qsos
where
> > they get unique multipliers thus to not punish them for being in the
> middle
> > of nowhere. And the group of captivated circling rovers would have to
grow
> > to the size of 10.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > Tim Ertl KE3HT/r 
> > QSL via CBA
> > http://www.ke3ht.org/rover
> > ke3ht at ke3ht.org
> >  
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/75 - Release Date:
8/17/2005
> >  
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> End of VHFcontesting Digest, Vol 32, Issue 48
> *********************************************