[VHFcontesting] FT8 and the ARRL June VHF Contest

[Marshall-K5QE]

Hi Mark and others interested in this topic....

I did not realize that there were so many "issues" for stations running 
/R.  I suppose that is because moving my station from grid to grid would 
be a real problem.....HI.

It seems clear that those running /R should try to come up with a set of 
"best practices" for the rover group.  Other than being sure that 
everyone is using the contest mode, I don't feel that I can contribute 
to that.  I encourage the /R operators to "hash this out".  This is a 
good forum, but maybe the WSJT reflector would work as well.

I hope that you did well in the contest....

73 Marshall K5QE


On 6/11/2018 11:17 PM, Mark Spencer wrote:
> Hi Marshall.   Firstly I agree with your comments (and thanks for continuing to remind us about the need to run contest mode.)   That being said,
>
> I took another run at rover operations with WSJT-x this contest (ie.  I had to set my call to "VE7AFZ/R".)  As I suspect many are aware the FT8 messages can be a bit different when a station appends "/R" to their call.   I only ran FT8 on 50 MHz and managed to catch a couple of band openings while doing so.
>
> I made an effort to take screen shots of what I saw and in reviewing them (and after reflecting a bit about what worked and what didn't work for me) I'm coming to the conclusion that "split frequency operation" may not always be a good fit when one is running with a "/R" call.
>
> As I type this I'm looking at a screen shot showing showing two different "VE7AFZ/R 73" messages that I received in the same time slot on two different audio frequencies.   (Along with a subsequent message on one of the same frequencies that appears to be a free message saying "VE7AFZ 73". I'll hold off on commenting about my concerns about what call the other station might have in their log for me.)
>
> During the contest I tried with varying levels of success to figure out which call came from which station by looking at the audio frequencies.  So if stations are going to change audio frequencies when working a rover please try to remember that some messages may only contain one call and the rover may be using the audio frequencies to determine which station sent a message that may not contain the call of the station that sent it.
>
> Conversely if I am sending a message such as "DE VE7AFZ/R CN99" in response to a CQ from another station sending it on exactly the same audio frequency that I received the CQ would seem to me be the best plan.  (Sending this message on a different audio frequency would seem confusing if multiple stations can hear me.)
>
> As a rover my preference at this point would be to usually only run on one audio frequency.   If others don't agree with this I'd be happy to listen to alternatives.  To be transparent I am still not entirely sure I have really figured out how to effectively run FT8 during a band opening with a "/R" call and basically the only time I can practice is during a contest so this may take me a while to figure out (:   I also didn't seem to have any issues working stations on FT8 (without using a "/R" call) on a 50 MHz band opening prior to the contest although I wasn't in a semi rare grid at the time (I believe two of the three grids I visited during the contest (CO80 and CN99) can be considered to be semi rare and at times I had several callers.)   I like to think things ran a bit smoother for me on Sunday than they did on Saturday (after I had reflected a bit about how things worked or didn't work on Saturday.)
>
> To avoid a thread hi jack I'll keep the rest of my thoughts regarding the way WSJT-x (while running MSK144 and FT8) handles "/R" calls to myself for the time being but I hope you don't mind me adding this issue to your email thread as I believe at times "/R" operators have a reasonably valid reason to only run on one audio frequency.
>
> 73
>
> Mark S
> VE7AFZ/R
>
> mark at alignedsolutions.com
> 604 762 4099
>
>> On Jun 11, 2018, at 7:45 PM, Marshall-K5QE <k5qe at k5qe.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hello to all the VHF contesters who ran the June contest.
>>
>> Due to all the hype concerning FT8, we decided this year to add a completely independent 6M station just to monitor FT8.  The station has a 6M5X for the antenna and a small SSPA.  The new station was interlocked with the main 6M run station to keep one station from blowing out the other.
>>
>> When the contest began, there was no Es on 6M, so naturally we went to 50.313 looking for FT8 contacts.  There were 6-8 traces visible.  Some were weak and some were really strong.  So, we started trying to work them.
>>
>> The results were terribly frustrating.  We tried running S&P by keeping our TX fixed on 1500 or 1200(or whatever) and calling stations that were calling CQ.  Many would not come back to us unless we got right on their frequency.  Apparently, these ops did not realize that it is possible to work just fine with our audio on 1500 and theirs on 1244.  It is sort of a "split operation", but it works very well and you can hold your CQ frequency.
>>
>> A goodly number were still not using the "NA Contest Mode", so you could not complete with them in any normal way.  The best we could do was to stop using the contest mode(CM) long enough to complete with them.  Sometimes, this was successful, sometimes not.  Remember that if one station is in the CM and the other one is not, the messages do not proceed properly.  Using the CM is critical.
>>
>> We could tell that this was not a recipe for success, so we started calling CQ ourselves, keeping our TX audio fixed at 1500.  We worked stations from all over the waterfall, but it was slow going.  We often were called by a station with a decent signal, but when we went right back to them, they disappeared and were never seen again.  This wasted a lot of time.  Many of those folks that answered our CQ were not in the CM, so, it was very hard to get their grid as many of them called using Tx2(K5QE K2XXX -02) rather than Tx1 which has the grid.
>>
>> Whenever our op could see that FT8 signals were really strong, he would jump to SSB and work whatever he could.  On Sat, about half of our 6M contacts(about 225) and half of our grids(about 60) were made on SSB.  If the Es died out, he would go back to FT8.
>>
>> At the end of SatHello to all the VHF contesters who ran the June contest.
>>
>> Due to all the hype concerning FT8, we decided this year to add a completely independent 6M station just to monitor FT8.  The station has a 6M5X for the antenna and a small SSPA.  The new station was interlocked with the main 6M run station to keep one station from blowing out the other.
>>
>> When the contest began, there was no Es on 6M, so naturally we went to 50.313 looking for FT8 contacts.  There were 6-8 traces visible.  Some were weak and some were really strong.  So, we started trying to work them.
>>
>> The results were terribly frustrating.  We tried running S&P by keeping our TX fixed on 1500 or 1200(or whatever) and calling stations that were calling CQ.  Many would not come back to us unless we got right on their frequency.  Apparently, these ops did not realize that it is possible to work just fine with our audio on 1500 and theirs on 1244.  It is sort of a "split operation", but it works very well and you can hold your CQ frequency.
>>
>> A goodly number were still not using the "NA Contest Mode", so you could not complete with them in any normal way.  The best we could do was to stop using the contest mode(CM) long enough to complete with them.  Sometimes, this was successful, sometimes not.  Remember that if one station is in the CM and the other one is not, the messages do not proceed properly.  Using the CM is critical.
>>
>> We could tell that this was not a recipe for success, so we started calling CQ ourselves, keeping our TX audio fixed at 1500.  We worked stations from all over the waterfall, but it was slow going.  We often were called by a station with a decent signal, but when we went right back to them, they disappeared and were never seen again.  This wasted a lot of time.  Many of those folks that answered our CQ were not in the CM, so, it was very hard to get their grid as many of them called using Tx2(K5QE K2XXX -02) rather than Tx1 which has the grid.
>>
>> Whenever our op could see that FT8 signals were really strong, he would jump to SSB and work whatever he could.  On Sat, about half of our 6M contacts(about 225) and half of our grids(about 60) were made on SSB.  If the Es died out, he would go back to FT8.
>>
>> At the end of Sat night, we had more contacts on 2M than we had on 6M.  This is pretty ridiculous in June.  Our score was about 28K.  It was terribly frustrating and my stress level was a bit high.
>>
>> On Sunday, we found the Es opening at about 8AM, maybe a bit earlier.  Signals were strong and we began running hard. Several of the top ops had to go home, because they had to work on Monday.  So, I had to man the 6M station from about Noon to 9PM.  I was running 100-120 per hour for several hours, which later fell back to about 60 per hour later in the evening.  At the end, we had 202 grids and 980+ contacts on 6M.  Our score was now 400K+ and less stress on me....HI.
>>
>> The bottom line is that FT8 performed about as I feared it would.  The large number of newbies and / or HFers that insist on running without the contest mode hurt the number of contacts that we were able to make and really hurt the rate.  Ditto the folks that think you have to be right on their frequency.  All this can be fixed with some education and some (gentle?) persuasion.  We somehow have to get these folks to understand that in the VHF world, we need GRIDS, most especially in a contest, where the grid is the exchange.  I DON'T CARE HOW THEY DO IT ON HF!!  As VHFers, I believe that we should use the CM at all times.  Maybe folks would see how much better it is.
>>
>> RECOMMENDATIONS:
>>
>> 1.  Use SSB or CW whenever signals are up.  It is MUCH faster and you will work more contacts with more grids.  I had several hours with a rate above 100 per hour.  You just cannot do this with FT8 as the absolute maximum number of contacts is 60 per hour...and in practice, you cannot do that.  It did not happen in this contest, but I have seen one of our top ops run over 200 contacts in an hour.
>>
>> 2.  Use the "NA Contest Mode" in contests.  I believe we should use it at all times, just so the newbies and HFers will see that rather than the "funny little numbers".
>>
>> 3.  Stations calling CQ should pick an audio frequency and stay there.  Work S&P stations anywhere in the waterfall.  This alone will help a lot.
>>
>> 4.  Don't make one call and then disappear.  Obviously, some contacts will fail for whatever reason(band drops, amp blows up, or something like that), but you will work a lot more if you stick with it.
>>
>> FINAL THOUGHTS:
>>
>> I think that with some education and some practice, FT8 can work a lot of stuff whenever Es is NOT happening.  It is a useful tool to be added to the contesting toolbox.  We just need to eliminate the bad operating practices so that everyone can maximize their contacts....big stations and small ones alike.
>>
>> I am most interested in how others found FT8 in this contest. Was it better or worse than what I have described above?  If you like my recommendations, then promote them.  If not, please let me know how we can all do better.  I always appreciate intelligent ideas and discussion.  Flames go directly to the bit bucket--they will not pass GO and will not collect $200.
>>
>> 73 Marshall K5QE
>> k5qe at k5qe.com
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