Gary Schafer wrote:
> They are blowing smoke at you Carl. The ground system does not carry any
> operating current.
>
> I have my pump fed on its own line directly out of the main breaker panel
> with no other circuits on that line. Some of my lights are on the same phase
> as the pump and also fed directly from the panel. So the only place there
> can be any voltage drop is in the power line between the panel and the pole
> transformer. You probably have the same type of setup.
>
> I upgraded to a new 200 amp panel and all new wiring in the house. The power
> company replaced part of the drop line as it was only rated for the old 100
> amp panel. But still I get some light dimming.
>
I didn't have to worry about that. The drop to the house is supposed to
be 12' at the lowest. When the concrete trucks came in to pour the floor
and foundation for my shop they took care of the problem. first truck
through removed the cables. Surprisingly they didn't remove the weather
head, but just broke the cable and messenger.
> Having the connections checked on the aluminum is a good idea. In one house
> that I had years ago they ran aluminum right into the breaker panel.
"They" only run cable to the meter socket. The house side of the meter
socket is the home owner's responsibility. Now days, 200 amp panels will
take a 3-000 Aluminum cable from the meter to the panel. It's really
rare to find new construction using copper for those large cables. I
retightened mine, "HOT", but I'd tell any one one not acquainted with
the procedure to not even attempt it. There are just too many things to
go wrong and you have 240 on connectors just inches apart that are 120V
to ground and nearly every thing you can accidentally touch is ground.
Short that wrench to ground ahead of the breakers and you'll probably
melt the wrench before blowing the fuse at the pole. BTW it took about
3/4 of a turn after 2 years. It was solid the next time I tried it.
Hire an electrician and let him schedule the meter pull and reconnect.
He can get the power company guy to hang around for a couple minutes,
get the work done, and a reconnect. Normally the power guys pull the
meter and leave. So you'll be without power for only a few minutes
instead of a day or two.
73
Roger (K8RI)
> The
> connection got loose and burned one of the feeders several feet back into
> the supply conduit. We had to pull in new feeders from the meter to the
> panel. Put copper in that time.
>
> As far as I know aluminum is not allowed inside the house anymore. They can
> only run it up to the meter and from the meter to the panel needs to be
> copper.
>
> 73
> Gary K4FMX
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Carl [mailto:km1h@jeremy.mv.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 3:43 PM
>> To: Gary Schafer; 'Roger'
>> Cc: amps@contesting.com
>> Subject: Re: [Amps] TL922 Power Plugs
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Gary Schafer" <garyschafer@comcast.net>
>> To: "'Carl'" <km1h@jeremy.mv.com>; "'Roger'" <sub1@rogerhalstead.com>
>> Cc: <amps@contesting.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 3:55 PM
>> Subject: RE: [Amps] TL922 Power Plugs
>>
>>
>>
>>> I have the same problem at my farm. The line from the pole transformer is
>>> rather long and when the pump comes on lights dim slightly. But this has
>>> nothing to do with how good the grounds are or aren't. It is strictly
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> voltage drop in the feeder line.
>>>
>>> 73
>>> Gary K4FMX
>>>
>> Thats not what several linemen and the engineering staff told me. They
>> said
>> it has always been a problem to get a good ground in this area and they
>> dont
>> guarantee anything.
>>
>> Getting water means drilling 1000-2000' if youre lucky. Many have walked
>> away from property because multiple holes have come up dry.
>>
>> Its one of the benefits on being on the highest elevation in around 20
>> miles.
>>
>> Carl
>> KM1H
>>
>>
>>
>> Carl
>> KM1H
>>
>>
>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: amps-bounces@contesting.com [mailto:amps-bounces@contesting.com]
>>>>
>> On
>>
>>>> Behalf Of Carl
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 1:56 PM
>>>> To: Roger
>>>> Cc: amps@contesting.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [Amps] TL922 Power Plugs
>>>>
>>>> I think the answer is pretty simple.
>>>>
>>>> The 240V comes to the panel and the ground at both ends is marginal at
>>>> best.
>>>> when running multiple 120V circuits off the panel the balance is not
>>>> perfect
>>>> and the resistance in the poor grounds causes a voltage drop,
>>>>
>> especially
>>
>>>> when a heavy 240V load comes on such as the deep well pump, the
>>>>
>> electric
>>
>>>> range, any ham amp, Jenn Air, etc. The drop in the #12's is less than
>>>> #14,
>>>> especially in longer runs since this house is 80' long with a full
>>>> basement,
>>>> 2 upper levels and a walk in attic that houses a couple of the heavy
>>>>
>> draw
>>
>>>> 120V vintage stations plus thermostat controlled 240V baseboard heaters
>>>> when
>>>> needed.
>>>>
>>>> In addition I believe the 240V conductors from the pole are undersized
>>>> since
>>>> they werent changed when I upgraded to a 200A panel from the old 100A
>>>> service. The utility company told me it didnt need an upgrade 20 years
>>>> ago.
>>>> Maybe I should talk to the new owners. Plus Im at the end of the pole
>>>>
>> pig
>>
>>>> run.
>>>>
>>>> Carl
>>>> KM1H
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Roger" <sub1@rogerhalstead.com>
>>>> Cc: <amps@contesting.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 2:12 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Amps] TL922 Power Plugs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Gary Patterson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am confused, does return current actually go through "dirt"
>>>>>>
>> ground
>>
>>>>>> and cause dimming of lights in a house. I can't get my mind around
>>>>>> that???
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Me either. Here, the neutral comes in from the pole with the two 110
>>>>> VAC lines (220 volts between them) That neutral is grounded/earthed
>>>>>
>> at
>>
>>>>> both ends. In the house the neutral ties to the neutral and ground
>>>>>
>> buss
>>
>>>>> in the main breaker panel, which is then tied to to the 1, 2, or 3
>>>>> required ground rods. You could remove the ground lead to the ground
>>>>> rods entirely and the electrical system would never know the
>>>>>
>> difference
>>
>>>>> under normal circumstances.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger (K8RI)
>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: km1h@jeremy.mv.com
>>>>>>> To: n7fcf@hctc.com; amps@contesting.com
>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:09:57 -0500
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Amps] TL922 Power Plugs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In NH the homeowner can do all his own wiring subject to
>>>>>>>
>> inspection;
>>
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> includes new construction. When I moved here in 1989 I added a huge
>>>>>>> addition
>>>>>>> to an 1830's farmhouse which I pretty much gutted and rebuilt with
>>>>>>> insulation, low E double pane windows, etc. The basement of the
>>>>>>>
>>>> addition
>>>>
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> over wired for multi bench ham use plus other benches for building
>>>>>>>
>>>> amps,
>>>>
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> repairs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The complete house was wired with #12 to the 120V wall outlets
>>>>>>>
>> which
>>
>>>> are
>>>>
>>>>>>> standard 15A variety. I did that to minimize dimming which is
>>>>>>>
>> common
>>
>>>> on
>>>>
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> hilltop due to poor grounds.....rock makes a poor conductor. The
>>>>>>>
>>>> ground
>>>>
>>>>>>> rods are a pair of spaced 8' driven at a shallow angle since solid
>>>>>>>
>>>> ledge
>>>>
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> less than 2' down. The best I could do is place them under the roof
>>>>>>>
>>>> drip
>>>>
>>>>>>> zone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My guide was the 1987 NEC manual which was current at the time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The inspector is a local excavator contractor who never had an
>>>>>>> electricians
>>>>>>> license. In fact he still holds the position. I think we just broke
>>>>>>>
>>>> 13K
>>>>
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> population.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Later I bonded all the heating and domestic water copper pipes
>>>>>>>
>>>> together
>>>>
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> #6 and tied those into the panel ground. Distances were all within
>>>>>>>
>> 6'
>>
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> panel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then of course comes the ham equipment grounds, feedline grounds
>>>>>>>
>> (all
>>
>>>>>>> CATV
>>>>>>> or Andrew hardline), tower grounds ( I have 4 up to 250' away all
>>>>>>>
>>>> guyed
>>>>
>>>>>>> which means 3 more grounds per tower), vertical radial grounds (80
>>>>>>>
>> &
>>
>>>>>>> 160M 4
>>>>>>> Squares), Beverage grounds ( there are 7 and the common hardline
>>>>>>>
>> feed
>>
>>>> is
>>>>
>>>>>>> 750' away) and whatever else which seems to throw the NEC manual
>>>>>>>
>> out
>>
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>>>> window.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can see why many of us are confused and pretty much ignore all
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> NEC
>>>>>>> nonsense after the 1987 or earlier revisions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Carl
>>>>>>> KM1H
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Jim Carr" <n7fcf@hctc.com>
>>>>>>> To: "Alex Eban" <alexeban@gmail.com>; <jimsmitheguard-a@yahoo.com>;
>>>>>>> <amps@contesting.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 3:52 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Amps] TL922 Power Plugs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I spent my working life wireing and the later half as a state
>>>>>>>> electrical
>>>>>>>> inspector. I am a certified master electrician and national;y
>>>>>>>>
>>>> certified
>>>>
>>>>>>>> electrical inspector retired since 2000.
>>>>>>>> reading some of these post's, although there isn't a thing wrong
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>> your own wiring, I would heartily recomend you have your work
>>>>>>>>
>>>> inspected
>>>>
>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>> the local electrical inspector. When it comes to bonding and
>>>>>>>>
>>>> grounding,
>>>>
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> you don't know can kill you.
>>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>> N7FCF
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Alex Eban" <alexeban@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: <jimsmitheguard-a@yahoo.com>; <amps@contesting.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 11:15 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Amps] TL922 Power Plugs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is true!
>>>>>>>> The point to watch, in my opinion, is to take the branch out from
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> main
>>>>>>>> panel BEFORE the GFI, if used. A local GFI can then be added at
>>>>>>>>
>> the
>>
>>>>>>>> remote
>>>>>>>> location and the local ground strapped there to the neutral coming
>>>>>>>>
>>>> from
>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> main inlet. An added advantage of this is that if the local GFI
>>>>>>>> trips
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> don't have to run to the house to lift it.
>>>>>>>> Alex 4Z5KS
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: amps-bounces@contesting.com [mailto:amps-
>>>>>>>>
>>>> bounces@contesting.com]
>>>>
>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of jimsmitheguard-a@yahoo.com
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 5:10 AM
>>>>>>>> To: amps@contesting.com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Amps] TL922 Power Plugs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>>>>>>> The neutral and ground must be bonded together at the main panel
>>>>>>>>
>> as
>>
>>>>>>>> stated
>>>>>>>> on the reflector many times. The ground, and neutral bus are often
>>>>>>>>
>>>> one
>>>>
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the same in a residential panel.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The detached barn requires it's own service. This service must
>>>>>>>>
>> have
>>
>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>> grounding electrodes to limit the impedance to ground at this
>>>>>>>>
>>>> location,
>>>>
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> the neutral must be bonded to ground here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the barn service panel is fed from the house service panel, You
>>>>>>>>
>>>> must
>>>>
>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>> bond the services together.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jim Smith, EEKQ6UV
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Mark Robinson <markrob@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Mark Robinson <markrob@mindspring.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Amps] TL922 Power Plugs
>>>>>>>> To: "Ian Hill - K8MM" <ihk8mm@charter.net>
>>>>>>>> Cc: amps@contesting.com
>>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 8:32 AM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My Neutral and Ground is connected at the main panel but also at
>>>>>>>>
>> the
>>
>>>>>>>> barn
>>>>>>>> 300 feet away. I am running a 3 wire 100 amp 240v power 4 00
>>>>>>>> aluminum
>>>>>>>> line
>>>>>>>> to the barn from a 100 amp 240v breaker located in my main
>>>>>>>>
>>>> distribution
>>>>
>>>>>>>> box.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't like the idea of a gnd neutral tie that far away from the
>>>>>>>> barn,
>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>> I tied them together at the barn with a second ground rod located
>>>>>>>>
>> at
>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> barn. Is that such a bad idea?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> Amps mailing list
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>>>>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>> ---
>>
>>>> -----------
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>>> Version: 9.0.698 / Virus Database: 270.14.50/2481 - Release Date:
>>>>>>>> 11/04/09
>>>>>>>> 11:51:00
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
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