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Re: [CQ-Contest] Convergence and Change

To: Bill Hider <n3rr@erols.com>, "Martin , LU5DX" <lu5dx@lucg.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Convergence and Change
From: Radio K0HB <kzerohb@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 19:55:11 +0000
List-post: <cq-contest@contesting.com">mailto:cq-contest@contesting.com>
LU5DX: "You will be able to keep entering contests in the way you want..."

President Obama: "You will be able to keep the health insurance you now
have..."

LU5DX: "....even if the categories are merged."

KØHB: "merged"? The proposal is really not about a merger. The proposal is
to DELETE a category, a category which is MORE POPULAR than the "conjoined
twin" which has been selected to survive the surgery.

73, de Hans, KØHB

On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 12:09 Martin , LU5DX <lu5dx@lucg.com.ar> wrote:

> Again, personal preferences first.
> You will be able to keep entering contests in the way you want, even if
> categories are merged.
> No one will force to point and click for Qs.
> It makes sense to change after thirty years, mainly because competition is
> not fair given rules the way they are.
> Even if it is about at a zone or country level, results cannot be properly
> adjudicated, simply because the improper use of dx alerting cannot be
> proved to the extent needed.
> We have a way to eliminate a very effective and undetectable way of
> cheating and all we do is look for excuses not to do it. We base our
> propositions in our personsal likes and dislikes, or on the fact that out
> hobby also suffers of other ways of cheating like power abuse, log padding,
> ghost ops, remote receivers, etc.
> Pretty amazing!
>
> 73,
> Martin LU5DX
> El may 24, 2016 9:49, "Bill Hider" <n3rr@erols.com> escribió:
>
> I totally agree with Mark, KD4D and I am a SOA operator and I want to keep
> the SO & SOA categories separate.
> Why would anyone care to combine them after the nearly 30 years we've
> managed to keep them separate?
> I say "we" because I was in the vanguard in the 1980s participating as a
> M/S
> just because I was using packet as a single op
> and there was no such thing as "assisted" or "unlimited".  I took spots in
> off the packet and printed them using my ASR TTY machine.
> Later on, back then, I was able to make a 1,000,000 point score in ARRL DX
> by clicking on the spots - great FUN!
>
> For me it's two things:
> It's more FUN for me to operate SOA than SO.
> Having two categories means more awards which equals more participation
> which equals more FUN!
>
> Simple.
>
> Bill N3RR
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: CQ-Contest [mailto:cq-contest-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
> kd4d@comcast.net
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 11:11 AM
> To: cq-contest
> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Convergence and Change
>
> Good day, Martin:
>
> It makes sense to keep the separation between single operator and single
> operator Assisted/Unlimited because many of us believe the skill involved
> in
> finding stations to work without having a computer or other operator do it
> for us is worth measuring (and a lot of fun).  The organizers of WRTC, for
> one, agree - look at their rules sometime.
>
> It is not obvious that operators who don't use the DX alerting assistance
> (particularly on CW) will do better than those who do not - THAT is what
> the
> SOs are complaining about.  We don't want to be forced to use DX alerting
> assistance to compete.  The same operators, using DX alerting assistance,
> will make higher scores than they do without...The CW skimmers/RBN have
> made
> this particularly obvious for CW operations.
>
> Clearly, combining the categories is all about comparing the highest scores
> for everyone and everyone wishing to be competitive will use DX alerting
> assistance if the categories are combined.  I certainly use it in WAE
> (where
> there is one category) when I operate that contest.
>
> Why do the advocates of combining the categories - surely they only operate
> Assisted - want to combine the categories anyway?  I understand the
> concerns
> of the contest organizers, but why do any of the Assisted operators care?
>
> 73,
>
> Mark, KD4D
>
> At this point it makes no sense to keep this separation anymore.
>
> In the end, SO will keep doing better than those who use DX alerting
> assistance, so what SOs are complaining about?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "LU5DX Martin" <lu5dx@lucg.com.ar>
> To: "Davor Kucelin" <davor.kucelin@plavalaguna.hr>, "cq-contest"
> <cq-contest@contesting.com>
> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2016 11:08:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Convergence and Change
>
> What's your point?
>
> Combining SOAB and SOAB(A) has nothing to do with comparing the highest
> scores in each category.
>
> It's about eliminating  the possibility of taking even a very small unfair
> advantage throughout the 48-hour period that can place a cheater above
> his/her competitors (even if it is very little above in the rankings)
>
> It also has to do with eliminating the burden and work overload that
> implies
> trying to find those who cheat.
>
> Reality is that ops who cheat have perfected their techniques beyond what
> can be detected by log checkers. Those who get caught year after year are
> those who abuse of DX clusters in a very obvious way.
>
> At this point it makes no sense to keep this separation anymore.
>
> In the end, SO will keep doing better than those who use DX alerting
> assistance, so what SOs are complaining about?
>
> They can even still use a pen and paper logs and send CW with a straight
> key
> if they want.
>
> Are there still contesters out there entering contests because they think
> they are winning anything at all, or winning over anybody at all??
>
> What in the world would make someone think he/she is winning over someone
> who is thousand of miles away, with totally different equipment,
> propagation
> and participating according to a bunch of rules that are hardly
> enforceable?t
>
> C'mon guys. It seems like intelligence is inversely proportional to egos
> among certain high profile contesters :-)
>
> Our "competitions" have nothing of real competitions. It is just a game of
> enjoyment, but if we are still going to pretend these are competitions, at
> least we can establish the foundations to make them something a bit more
> trustworthy in those terms.
>
> 73,
>
> Martin LU5DX
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 4:03 AM, Davor Kucelin <
> davor.kucelin@plavalaguna.hr
> > wrote:
>
> > CQWW SSB Top 10 scores all years
> >
> >
> >
> > SOABHP
> >
> >
> >
> > 1             EA8BH  1999      SO HP ALL           25,646,796
> > 10,253   176         692         -              N5TJ
> >
> > 2             CN2R     2004      SO HP ALL           20,938,680
> > 8,655     172         668         -              W7EJ
> >
> > 3             D4B        2004      SO HP ALL           20,433,438
> > 8,799     172         674         -              4L5A
> >
> > 4             D4B        2003      SO HP ALL           20,119,968
> > 8,956     169         634         -              4L5A
> >
> > 5             CN2R     2003      SO HP ALL           18,743,250
> > 8,682     152         594         -              W7EJ
> >
> > 6             HC8A     1999      SO HP ALL           18,607,050
> > 8,638     175         595         -              N6KT
> >
> > 7             CN2R     2011      SO HP ALL           18,518,160
> > 8,409     167         593         44.7       W7EJ
> >
> > 8             CN2R     2013      SO HP ALL           18,277,746
> > 8,370     167         579         46.9       W7EJ     [Cert]
> >
> > 9             HC8A     2000      SO HP ALL           18,122,040
> > 9,160     163         547         -              N6KT
> >
> > 10           8P5A     2013      SO HP ALL           17,059,840
> > 10,126   162         518         48.0       W2SC
> >
> >
> >
> > SOAB ASSISTED HP
> >
> >
> >
> > 1             9Y4ZC    2003      SA HP ALL           14,979,055
> > 8,114     137         500         -              DL6FBL
> >
> > 2             P40A     2011      SA HP ALL           14,332,656
> > 7,478     156         513         43.5       KK9A
> >
> > 3             TM6M  2015      SA HP ALL           14,263,470
> > 7,057     168         667         47.9       F8DBF   [Cert]
> >
> > 4             P40P      2002      SA HP ALL           12,975,732
> > 6,639     154         528         -              W5AJ
> >
> > 5             EF8U     2013      SA HP ALL           12,743,163
> > 6,656     154         533         45.0       EA8RM [Cert]
> >
> > 6             NN3W  2011      SA HP ALL           11,828,236
> > 4,921     185         683         44.7       @N3HBX
> >
> > 7             OH0X    2015      SA HP ALL           11,790,240
> > 6,294     174         706         48.0       OH6KZP               [Cert]
> >
> > 8             P40W    2003      SA HP ALL           11,755,443
> > 6,730     137         496         -              W2GD
> >
> > 9             D4B        2002      SA HP ALL           11,567,412
> > 5,845     152         586         -              4L5A
> >
> >
> >
> > CQWW CW Top 10 scores all years
> >
> >
> >
> > SOABHP
> >
> >
> >
> > 1             EA8BH  2000      SO HP ALL           18,010,765
> > 7,555     183         634         -              N5TJ
> >
> > 2             ZF2MJ   2015      SO HP ALL           16,730,788
> > 10,014   170         527         48.0       N6MJ    [Cert]
> >
> > 3             CR3OO 2015      SO HP ALL           16,090,078
> > 8,812     152         474         48.0       CT1BOH               [Cert]
> >
> > 4             P40E      2003      SO HP ALL           15,943,070
> > 7,828     169         546         -              CT1BOH
> >
> > 5             EF8M    2011      SO HP ALL           15,846,012
> > 7,873     160         531         48.0       RD3A
> >
> > 6             PZ5T      2011      SO HP ALL           15,673,940
> > 7,592     173         545         47.4       VE3DZ
> >
> > 7             CR3E      2012      SO HP ALL           15,221,316
> > 7,275     170         556         48.0       CT1BOH               [Cert]
> >
> > 8             CR3E      2011      SO HP ALL           15,151,668
> > 7,212     168         564         48.0       CT1BOH
> >
> > 9             EF8M    2010      SO HP ALL           15,117,795
> > 7,598     158         535         47.8       RD3A
> >
> > 10           HC8N    1999      SO HP ALL           14,626,579
> > 7,001     185         546         -              N5KO
> >
> >
> >
> > SOAB ASSISTED HP
> >
> >
> >
> > 1             9Y4ZC    2004      SA HP ALL           14,581,665
> > 6,576     169         596         -              DL6FBL
> >
> > 2             5B/AA1TN          2004      SA HP ALL           13,715,573
> > 6,381     170         627         -              RW3QC
> >
> > 3             EF9O     2013      SA HP ALL           13,530,554
> > 5,826     171         623         46.6       EA5BM [Cert]
> >
> > 4             K5ZD/1 2014      SA HP ALL           12,768,365
> > 4,993     190         697         44.3                      [Cert]
> >
> > 5             EF8U     2013      SA HP ALL           11,955,126
> > 5,700     169         602         44.2       EA8RM [Cert]
> >
> > 6             CN3A    2010      SA HP ALL           11,818,159
> > 5,729     156         577         46.4
> >
> > 7             NP4Z     2013      SA HP ALL           11,341,512
> > 6,059     165         591         46.9
> >
> > 8             K5ZD/1 2015      SA HP ALL           11,275,488
> > 4,742     179         654         44.9                      [Cert]
> >
> > 9             CT9M    2002      SA HP ALL           11,225,452
> > 5,181     159         605         -              DL2CC
> >
> > 10           P40C      2014      SA HP ALL           11,085,536
> > 6,242     154         462         44.8       KU1CW
> >
> >
> >
> > So what are we talking about?
> >
> > Best Assisted score is way below 10th unassisted score.
> >
> > What are you than scared about to combine the 2 categorys.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 73 Dave 9A1UN
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > CQ-Contest mailing list
> > CQ-Contest@contesting.com
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
> >
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