Kelly,
I was not clear. I was talking in generalities and not about your post
specifically.
I have no problem with vigorous agreement or disagreement as long was we
can do it more civil.
Poor Steve is being drug through the ringer over a misunderstanding.
Once again I understand the intent, frustration, concern shown by the
first post. I can cite examples where the hired gun can gain
advantages. I see no real reason why we should have an owner/operator
class.
I think we could/should further detail what a station owner or station
helper would be allowed to do in the case of a hire gun operating the
station. If an antenna fails or an amp blows up, who should be the
doing the fixing? Should the hired gun be allowed to operate on other
bands while the repairman fixes the problem while the owner operator
does not get that opportunity?
Where do you draw the line? Do we draw a line. Is it ok for W0BigGun
to bring over 10 friends just in case stuff happens? I don't think that
is right. Is it ok for K3LR to fix things for W0BigGun if something
breaks? Clear as mud.
W0MU
On 9/9/2016 9:37 AM, Kelly Taylor wrote:
Why even bother with a reflector if someone isn’t allowed to vigorously
disagree with a posting?
You will note there was no ad hominem in my post. I didn’t call it silly and I
didn’t insult the OP.
What I did do was elucidate a number of scenarios that make the idea untenable.
Is that so bad?
I would welcome a debate on the issue, rather than a blanket condemnation of
dissent.
73, kelly, ve4xt,
On Sep 9, 2016, at 10:33 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett <w0mu@w0mu.com> wrote:
I am not slicing or dicing it. I just wish we could discuss things and leave
out the derogatory terms, name calling and similar.
I understand the original post. Do I think we could ever write rules for it?
Nope.
We can't enforce the ones we have. It doesn't mean we can't discuss things
even if we don't agree with the premise.
There is and will never be a fair in Ham Radio Contesting. WRTC is as close as
we can get and we have already shown that process has issues with team and site
selection.
Why even bother with a reflector if every new idea needs to be hurled away with
great force just because someone doesn't agree with it?
W0MU
On 9/9/2016 8:49 AM, Kelly Taylor wrote:
How finely do you slice it, Mike?
Do you create a category for owners who do their own work vs. hiring K7LXC?
Extra points for being able to service an IC-7851 yourself? Do those who
scrounge deserve special status from those who call up Icom, JK Antennas and AN
Wireless with their Platinum American Express in hand?
How about a hired gun who also happens to be the owner’s wrench-slinger? If K7LXC
operated a customer’s station, is he a hired gun?
None of the operators at K3LR, other than K3LR, owns the station, yet the owner who
also operates does. Does that give K3LR a separate category from W3LPL when Frank
isn’t operating?
What if W0AIH, arguably the elder statesman of station construction, played somewhere
else? Don't K6LA and K1ZM already get a significant advantage (which I don’t
take issue with) at VY2TT and VY2ZM? Should they also be granted extra status owing to
their owning their stations?
Would the owner of Radio City deserve owner-operator status if he didn’t lift a finger
to build the store’s station but instead instructed his staff to do it?
Finally, isn’t it all even more classicism than already exists in contesting?
The folks who can afford to build dream stations in dream locations already get a huge
advantage, and we want to give them more? Seriously?
To quote — possibly misquote — K0HB, this isn’t an idea that should be tossed
aside casually. It should be hurled away with great force!
73, kelly, ve4xt,
On Sep 9, 2016, at 9:00 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett <w0mu@w0mu.com> wrote:
Maybe, but your opinion about the matter hold not more value than mine. We
have endless arguments about the same things year in and year out. Why is this
idea any different?
To you it was silly. Maybe others agree with the OP (original poster) but
might be afraid to even post. Could you blame them?
Should hired guns be classified in their own group? I didn't find his post
disrespectful to anyone. He simply was proposing that people that build,
maintain and own their station be judge similarly.
Hired guns get the luxury of walking into a fully capable station and have to
have done a last minute repair, put up a last minute antenna and they might be
better rested than the station owner who came home to something broken right
before the contest.
Should the station owner of a station using a hired gun be allowed to do any
work on the station if something were to break or malfunction? Why should the
hire gun get a built in repairman when the station owner/operator is not
afforded the same luxury? Hired guns as someone else has mention can spend all
their time working on operating while owner operators have to spend time
building and maintaining. Those are choices we make freely.
What is the problem talking about other ways to score or compare scores? We
have them constantly about CQ WW and trying to make it appear more fair for
people that do not live in propagation blessed areas.
We can make the rules as simple or complex as we like as these are our events.
Do we really need to use the words silly, troll, etc. If you want to comment
on a post is it that difficult to do so with out insulting people? Would
people say these things to a stranger in person that you might meet at Dayton?
Most probably would not. Hiding behind our computer screens does not give us
the right to be jerks.
W0MU
On 9/8/2016 11:49 AM, David Gilbert wrote:
I saw it differently. It seemed to me that NN4X was being quite disrespectful
toward skilled operators, who by simple virtue of not being able to afford a
competent station of their own, should be discriminated against if they get the
opportunity to compete from a better station. His suggestion would also open
up an endless and contentious argument of what exactly qualifies for such a
category, as at least a few replies here have already identified.
A silly suggestion isn't courage.
Dave AB7E
On 9/8/2016 6:58 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:
I understand the point that NN4X was making. Do people need to be arseholes
when they don't necessarily agree?
I thought the purpose of this reflector was to discuss and debate ideas,
concepts, etc. I didn't realize that I had to agree with a particular mantra
to be a member of the list.
This list has devolved into name calling and many are quite disrespectful of
others opinions and comments.
I guess this is what happens when people become old farts?
These posts just show that hams are just like everyone else. The disrespect
shown toward others in the real world is about the same as in this reflector.
I used to think Ham Radio people were better people, would never cheat, treated
others as they would like to be treated. No longer.
Is there a particular platform that members of this list must conform to in
order to be accepted?
At least NN4X has the courage to make some suggestions. Most simply continue
to keep their heads firmly planted in the sand.
The value of this list continues to fade.
W0MU
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