I'll also mention that the weekly Phone Fray contest does seem to attract a
lot of casual operators. I try to operate in it when I can, and always
take the time to briefly rag chew to explain the rules and the time limit
and encourage the station to jump in and participate either in the current
fray or next week's.
While I think mentorship is crucial, a friendly and casual contest like
Phone Fray offers a taste of competition, and the fun increases
significantly as participation increases, since everyone's rate goes up
significantly.
73,
Matt NQ6N
On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Wes Jennings <wjennings2011@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> As you know Steve I have opened the station up here for people to use and
> have invited many up here.
> FD we had possibly 4people show up with both a ssb and a cw station set
> up. I had 2 ops including myself running the cw station with a 3 ele beam.
> A his was the club here.
>
> Been wondering if setting up remote operation might get more using it but
> don't even see that interest.
>
> Wes
> WL7F
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Bloom <sbloom@acsalaska.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2016 1:15:41 PM
> To: w1ve@yccc.org
> Cc: 'Wes Jennings'; 'Ken Low'; 'CQ-Contest'
> Subject: RE: [CQ-Contest] Observations of a young ham
>
> Hey all:
>
> As I see this discussion flow, my Project Management thoughts come into
> play (I”ve done a lot of it in the IT world) .. You try to break things
> down into actionable items and prioritize. These of course will reflect
> some of my own observations, but it sounds like we’re all on similar tracks
>
>
> 1) We’re contesters, we focus on contesting, but our issues are part
> of a larger one, which, if improved, will almost automatically improve
> ours. The issue is, while the base of licensed amateurs is either steady
> or growing, depending on who you ask, there is very little path for anyone,
> not determined on their own, towards active HF operation (or for that
> matter VHF weak signal work, which is the basis of VHF contesting). The
> license structure doesn’t call for it (and this argument, however one feels
> about it, was over long ago), modern equipment seems expensive to a
> newcomer, and HOAs and urbanization makes it increasingly difficult to put
> up useful antennas. Most of us who started with “a boy and his radio” did
> it on a suburban or rural plot, with room for at least some decent wire
> antennas. A lot of us also had HS and College stations to play with. I’ll
> pull a totally made up number out of my hat for the purposes of
> discussion. Let’s say 1 in 10 newly licensed have enough exposure to HF to
> a) know it exists b) attempt to operate it .. upping that number to 2 in
> 10, likely solves a bunch of this, without doing anything else. We need a
> “Path to HF” as part of the mainstream of Training, and we need club
> stations to do it. If you don’t believe this, go to Field Day sometime,
> and check out a HT only guy or gal get behind the mic and make their first
> HF Qs. Some will do it a bit, then just hand it over, but I promise you
> will see at least a couple who will totally light up, *and* sometimes you
> will see someone who has *it*. I go to South Dakota each year for Field
> Day, and the group there has a few of the folks I’m describing. I’m not
> even much of a SSB op, but I can teach these folks enough, to see their
> rate rise over the hours. Luckily the Club out there provides a number of
> HF activities, and their mentor is W0SD who is absolutely first class. It
> works, but, a lot of these guys can’t even fathom putting up their own
> stations, and you can’t just talk them into it. Which leads to
>
>
> 2) Places and spaces for new (and maybe not so new operators). I
> think we’re all in agreement that these are club stations and multi
> operator capable privately owned stations. I’d add a third, something
> along the line of what I suggested to Wes ..that there are opportunities to
> make ones own station available to a club. The question is, what can be
> done to make these more common. The first stop I imagine (for the States
> at least) is ARRL. The last CEO was an operating guy K1ZZ who happened to
> be an enthusiastic contester. The new one is clearly about finances and
> lobbying. This is not a complaint, it’s likely a good move in the 21st
> century, but I don’t know what it means in terms of commitments to training
> and on the air activity. I wonder, because this is far from the first time
> this discussion has come up (and not just amongst contesters), but nothing
> seems to actually get done. Don’t want to get into a pro league/anti
> league argument, just that I don’t know what/if anything they can/will do.
> If not, I think we have to look along the lines of how dxpeditions are
> supported. They get help from foundations set up for the purpose,
> equipment manufacturers, individual donations etc. Luckily, we’re not
> talking the kinds of dollars those things take, but some kind of organizing
> is necessary. Maybe some of the big contesting and dx clubs can pick this
> up? I’m a member of CWOps, which is (at least not by design) a contest
> club, but does end up having a good bit of overlap with the contest
> community. They’re succeeding in something I would have considered
> impossible ..training new (and often younger) hams not only to learn code,
> but to be effective operators. If you work a KI4xxx or a KM6xxx with good
> cw skills not using a code reader, you are probably working someone who has
> been through their program. They’re on to something as far as how to
> actually coach and enthuse people to do this. I”ll hit up a couple of
> their founders next time we’re in the same place, and see what we can learn
> from them.
>
> 73
> Steve KL7SB
>
>
>
> From: Gerry Hull [mailto:gerry@yccc.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2016 6:54 AM
> To: Stephen Bloom <sbloom@acsalaska.net>
> Cc: Wes Jennings <wjennings2011@hotmail.com>; Ken Low <kenke3x@gmail.com>;
> CQ-Contest <cq-contest@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Observations of a young ham
>
>
> Rookie Roundup misses the point. You need all the factors of a BIG
> contest to get people really interested. Joe,it sounds you liked the old RR
> due to some of these factors, it sounds like.
>
> Doing a bigger event gets potential DXers and game-type players involved.
> The type of people interested in the contesting aspect seem to
> thrive on complexity.
>
> I'd love a CQWW-style Contest --a world scope event -- where we bring new
> hams in, and have them actually participate as part of the team.
> As I [previously said, doing a presentation @ a club does not do the
> trick. There are too many nay-sayers who will poo poo the whole thing
> before understanding what it is all about.
>
> Multi-op stations are the breeding ground for new contesters! Going to a
> big station and being part of a team makes you want to DREAM about
> doing it yourself. It is a HUGE motivating factor!
>
> This would not be easy. The calendar is already jammed. Perhaps we can get
> all the contest clubs in the US and/or the rest of the world to agree to
> such a
> contest event. A REAL contest with station owners, but newbies at the
> helm.
>
> Perhaps we would just post to cq-contest.net<http://cq-contest.net> and
> to 3830, but there no "official" adjudication? (like some of the short
> events now.)
> Maybe the winners are not the scores revealed (however important for
> competition and bragging rights), but the number of
> new contest/DX operators recruited?
>
> Steve, I DO agree that real club stations would be awesome. I know that
> many clubs buy radios for field day and take them out
> once a year. Wouldn't it be better to have a club station? Absolutely.
>
> This is really not a matter of dollars. It's a matter of education, focus
> and the willingness to make it happen.
>
> 73,
>
> Gerry, W1VE
>
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 12:46 AM, Stephen Bloom <sbloom@acsalaska.net
> <mailto:sbloom@acsalaska.net>> wrote:
> Hi Wes et al:
>
>
>
> We already do have "Rookie Roundup" which I think tends to have horrible
> turnout. I don't think any contest per se is an answer, *but* you are
> already halfway towards the solution by what you are doing at your station
> ..
>
>
>
> The Club you are referring to, is unfortunately fairly typical (and I
> suspect the average age Is somewhere close to Social Security age). I can
> tell you what is different about the Club here (and I don't want to kid
> anyone, they struggle too) is .having a decent club station. They have
> weekly work sessions, they are into the EmCom stuff, but, they also
> experiment with everything from HF to Mesh Networks. What does that have
> to
> do with you? (and I'm sharing this to the list because you aren't the
> only
> one in the situation) *Your station* can become the defacto club station.
> You will have to more than just HF contest, but, I know you have other
> interests as well. *Be* the program at a meeting some time, show up to
> their Field Day if they do it (CQ Qs are worth 2X on FD, every club is
> thrilled to get any cw op they can) and get people involved in your
> station.
>
>
>
> If I had eff yew money, I'd give out grants to Clubs that would commit to
> buying or leasing space to have an actual VHF-160 capable station, not
> necessarily top line, but reasonably modern with useful antennas for
> multiple bands. In this age of HOAs and increasing urbanization, that's
> going to make or break or the hobby, whether contesting or just anything HF
> related.
>
>
>
> 73
>
> Steve KL7SB
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Wes Jennings [mailto:wjennings2011@hotmail.com<mailto:wjennings2011@
> hotmail.com>]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2016 8:27 PM
> To: Stephen Bloom <sbloom@acsalaska.net<mailto:sbloom@acsalaska.net>>;
> w1ve@yccc.org<mailto:w1ve@yccc.org>
> Cc: Ken Low <kenke3x@gmail.com<mailto:kenke3x@gmail.com>>; CQ-Contest <
> cq-contest@contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest@contesting.com>>
> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Observations of a young ham
>
>
> Ok Gerry,
>
>
>
> Now this is getting somewhere and having the ideas to do such. I have gone
> to local ham Club here many a time and seems they want to talk about cell
> towers, 3D printing, Satellite TV, and when there is some discussion on Ham
> topics it is VHF packet, short bursts every meeting about ARES mainly the
> same thing over and over again.
>
>
>
> When there is a discussion on HF, Antennas, Contesting, Propagation the
> people don't even act like it is part of the hobby and they are short
> presentations. Getting the ones to even go to a club station or Field day
> is
> like pulling teeth.
>
>
>
> each new ham has a automatic membership for a year to the local club but
> getting them there is another thing.
>
>
>
> I have thought of a few things contest wise but getting them off the ground
> is a bit of a thing.
>
>
>
> one of the thoughts is to create a new contest where it is a elmer and a
> rookie
>
> Rookie operates and 3 modes are used in blocks of 4 hrs each .
>
> SSB
>
> CW
>
> RTTY
>
> the elmer is there to assist but not to operate the radio but help with
> spotting and searching.
>
>
>
> Another idea is take a contest like CQWW and have a small competition
> locally with power/antennas etc all predetermined so all are running the
> same types of stations now like wires or what not are all up to design of
> each station as could make multi element wire beams ... phased verticals
> etc. If ya wana award the top scores or top rookie etc etc etc all doable
> just have it all lined out and would be a contest within a contest.
>
>
>
> a few more I have thought of but it gives some of the ideas
>
> These are what I feel should be tried.
>
>
>
> possibly after a "HF" class where cw is also taught along with how to make
> antennas and how to operate on the HF bands. where at the end of it is a
> major contest or some such or possibly the one with all three modes
> operated.
>
>
>
> Just thoughts and random as they are
>
>
>
> Wes
>
> WL7F
>
>
>
> _____
> From: Gerry Hull <gerry@yccc.org<mailto:gerry@yccc.org> <mailto:
> gerry@yccc.org<mailto:gerry@yccc.org>> >
> Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2016 2:21 PM
> To: Stephen Bloom
> Cc: Ken Low; CQ-Contest; Wes Jennings
> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Observations of a young ham
>
>
>
> A very interesting topical discussion.
>
>
>
> Here's some of my discovery over the past year and a half, where we did the
> "Discover the HF Experience" event, once in Canada, one in MA,
>
> and another in Dayton, all with experienced contest ops doing the demos...
>
>
>
> Some facts:
>
> - There are lots of young amateur radio licensees
>
> - Most of them are on VHF only.
>
> - We have more licensees now than we have had in many years.
>
>
>
> So, hopefully, this should dispel the the idea that we are competing with
> Video Games. People are interested in the IDEA of ham radio.
>
> They just don't understand enough about it. And we don't show 'em.
>
> Hell, there are tens of thousands of things that compete for peoples time
> and energy.
>
>
>
> Amateur Radio -- HF Operation -- and contesting are very compelling
> activities -- however, as one young ham said to me "Amateur Radio is
> hidden
> in plain site."
>
> Yes, there are 1000s of web sites about Ham Radio in the internet. BUT,
> you
> have to know what to look for!!! We cater to ourselves, and we use an
> awful
> lot of jargon that will be totally foreign to new/non hams.
>
>
>
> All of this was especially evident in Dayton. Many licensed hams came to
> our event and told us they had never operated HF.
>
> One father and son team said "We have our extras. We got them together,
> just for the challenge." They had never been on HF.
>
> Another guy stopped by. We had six remote stations they could operate. He
> said "I have no interest in operating. I just want to talk to you about
> getting my antennas up. I came here to get info. However, every booth I
> go to, it is just old buddies talking together and I cannot get the info I
> need."
>
>
>
> I received and email from a ham in San Francisco -- SAN FRANCISO!! -- that
> said he could not find a ham to help him put up an antenna -- he was
> interested in learning about contesting. (We got him hooked up.)
>
>
>
> I think those who think HF, and especially HF contesting, are not
> compelling
> hobbies, better think again. Do they have a social component that anyone
> of any age craves? You bet. I have more contesting friends than friends
> IRL!!
>
>
>
> Do we have barriers to entry? You bet. Can they be overcome? That's for
> us, as a community, to overcome.
>
> ,
>
> If I'm a new ham and I don't have a compelling experience operating HF, why
> would I want to go on and push myself to upgrade?
>
>
>
> Take a new ham, or even an unlicensed op, into a decent station with a
> tribander, a KW and computers.
>
> Work DX. Break Pileups. Operate a contest. Explain Propagation and it's
> challenges. Talk about gear and antennas.
>
> Do a newbie team. Don't worry about score -- but let people know it's a
> competition.
>
>
>
> Part of the problem is you have to experience the excitement FIRST HAND. A
> WRTC video, a youtube video, though well produced, is not the same as
> experiencing
>
> first-person operating.
>
>
>
> As espoused by Mary, KC1CWF, treat young hams as PEERS. They are very
> smart. They WANT to learn. They WANT to be challenged.
>
> Do they have to win CQWW CW on the first try? Of course not. Do they
> want
> to be part of a team? YOU BET!
>
>
>
> We, contesters, are the cream of the crop of HF ops (IMHO). Looking at
> magazine pages, we are the most popular activity in the hobby.
>
> We drive the development of high performance gear. We have to be the
> ambassadors!
>
>
>
> Part of the problem is we are all getting old. We don't want to make the
> effort. Social Norms are different today.
>
> People question why a 15-year-old would go into the house of a 50-to-60
> year
> old person they did not know well and spend a weekend.
>
> All this can be overcome by education.
>
>
>
> So -- if you just want to pontificate on CQ-Contest about how it's all
> going
> to hell, and that we have lost our youth to video games, then I
>
> guess our fate is sealed.
>
>
>
> Instead, take some of that energy and focus it on bringing new people into
> the fold. They are there for the taking...
>
>
>
> 73,
>
>
>
> Gerry, W1VE
>
> Contesting since age 16....(42 years and counting)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Stephen Bloom <sbloom@acsalaska.net
> <mailto:sbloom@acsalaska.net>
> <mailto:sbloom@acsalaska.net<mailto:sbloom@acsalaska.net>> > wrote:
>
> Given the big go around on this subject, I think WL7F and KE3X bring it
> down
> to the essentials
>
> Re: KE3X (and related to something I had mentioned early about wondering
> why EU continues to grow contesters), the ticket for young people is
> social,
> *especially* young people who may still be at that awkward stage (that some
> of us never grow out of!) of finding their social niche. I run into a
> *lot*
> of contesters who I remember from my teen days in the late 70s/early 80s in
> W2 land with pretty much identical paths. They got their licenses either
> through family or a local elmer/club, played on the air some, and got
> recruited or found by one of the major contest clubs or multiop stations.
> As best as I can tell, a number of them are getting on 40 years of
> contesting without significant breaks. Not only that, but many of their
> closest friends, confidantes, people who have gone through their lives with
> them, have been together since then. We can discuss technology changes,
> gaming, "busy" user interfaces vs. spare etc. etc. but I've known enough
> millennial and younger to know that the basic dynamics, "nerds and geeks
> looking for a fun group to do geeky stuff" doesn't change.
>
> We have a very modern well designed station at the Anchorage Amateur Radio
> Club (KL7AA). With travel and now with the KL7RA station, I haven't had
> much time in the last few years to do much with them, but, at least for SSB
> and RTTY, we can count on some newly licensed or newly reactive ham getting
> on to "just play around" in some contest, and, "get it." Not all stick
> with
> it, but more than you would expect. I can tell you, that it is the #1
> attractant to the younger folks, much moreso than the beer gutted guys
> playing EmComm (not that there is anything wrong with beer or EmComm). The
> best thing anyone on this list could do for the future, is convince their
> local club to become a "hackerspace." A clubhouse, with equipment, where
> it
> is comfortable to hang out, bs, and learn, will pay yuuuuge dividends.
> Also, concentrate on fun, the younger guys and gals really don't want to
> hear about how everything has gone to hell since the code requirement was
> dropped, or how anything involving ip is "not Amateur Radio." Our future,
> as a hobby overall, is going to be first and foremost, radiosport, and
> secondly, the permutations of RF and IP, with socializing being the glue
> that holds it all together.
>
> Re: WL7F, Wes is on a similar path, plus he brings up the other point that
> I think is center, regarding the two discussions going on right now, 1)
> How
> do we get new people 2) Why can't we change the rules for Contest <fill in
> the blank>
>
> We talk about winning. What's winning? One answer, and I think the
> important one is ...if you had fun, you won. If you had 5 people over,
> made
> 30Qs, and had more beer than points, but you had fun, I don't see the
> problem. Now, let's assume you are truly competitive, somewhat Type A and
> "just being in the game" either leaves you cold, or you are bored with it.
> Odds are, you have some idea what you want to be competitive at. If having
> a shot at winning in a SOAB category in CQWW is it, if you have the money
> for it, you are keeping your passport up to date, and checking out the cost
> of land in the Caribbean or EA8, if not, you are shamelessly kissing up to
> someone who already HAS a place there and checking out fares on EasyJet.
> If
> you want a shot at winning a category in your section in SS, but have the
> same big gun winning HP each year, you might decide to run low power, but
> put up a gain antenna for 40. Everyone has a contest or two, or twenty,
> where the rules either actually disadvantage ones QTH or particular
> operating preferences, but overall, change creates more agita, then just
> taking each contest for what it is. We also *can't* have rules existing
> because of cheating. Remember, first and foremost, this is not just
> technical, this is social, anything beyond trust and verify if and only if
> something seems way out of kilter, is as good as it can get, in maintaining
> that balance.
>
> 73
> Steve KL7SB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> WL7F wrote
>
> I have been reading these posts for a while now and wondering why I
> continually see a trend of I can't win so ya need to change the rules so I
> can. First off there is no such thing as Can't secondly what kind of a win
> is it if you have to change the rules to do such. If you just want a plaque
> go down and buy one the local shops will be more then willing to make you
> one up saying what ever ya wish it to.
>
>
> Sounds to me like it is not so much promoting the contesting but rather
> showing the backsides and competitors that are sore they don't have the
> wherewithal to actually compete. Now ya wana get youngsters in this well
> quit trying to compete with video games and just get out and invite them in
> to the shack for some of the contests and have them help from the get go.
> It
> is not anywhere close to a video game so comparing the two as said earlier
> is like comparing a apple to a orange .. not gona happen.
>
>
> Now I am in one of them places, competing in a class that I have less of a
> chance of winning then most that are reading this. I Spend the hours in the
> chair in front of a radio to make myself competitive. It is called strategy
> and decision making. Am I good at it .. naa I just put the seat time in as
> I
> could always be better. Guess what I will get better I will do better and I
> will at some point win a contest in North America at least. Do I wish for
> there to be more overlays or what not NO and that is a resounding NO let
> there be less of them so when I do it will mean that much more to me. This
> is a mindset that is productive and not destructive!!!
>
> KE3X wrote replying to K2WR
>
> "There is something (or many somethings) that is failing to attract the
> younger generation(s) that nobody has quite identified yet."
>
> I think it's easily identifiable: that 'something' is the social aspect.
> Gaming is an excellent comparison. Example: My 18-year old was accepted
> Early Decision to college last week and within 24-hours he was already
> playing League of Legends with a group of his future Class of 2021's. Kids
> bond around an activity. Can you imagine one of them saying "Hi - hope to
> work you in CQWPX CW next Spring!"
>
> Yes - you will occasionally find a teenager with the patience to learn
> about
> propagation, or (God forbid) learn Morse Code, and Amateur Radio may be
> additive to that kid's life.
>
> But what most kids really want is friends, fun, social acceptance and a
> competitive outlet. Contesting may have satisfied some of those basic needs
> in the 1970's but today there are more efficient outlets. The technology
> has moved forward - but human nature has not changed.
>
> Disclaimer: I have 3 kids (ages 22, 21 and 18) with General class
> licenses
> and one who competed for Team USA in High Speed Telegraphy. They all
> started with Radio Merit Badge in Scouts. If they do any contesting at
> all, it's only because Dad invites them to help with a family Multi-Op.
> They would never sit down at the radio themselves, mostly because none of
> their friends are on the other end of the airwaves. My 11-year old will
> do Radio Merit Badge next year to learn the basic principles, and maybe
> he'll get his Technician license, but I anticipate a similar outcome to his
> brothers' after that.
>
>
>
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