Igor, as i told before, i have nothing against Frank, im just having a debate
about spotting and cluster in contesting.
Im agree with you that everyone can spot to other stations and friends or not.
But it is not the same if you spot a friend 2 times and maybe few one more
stations or during a contest than a robot spot 24 times in just one contest to
the same station, and don't do the same with other station in the same contest,
in the same region/country/zone there it is a big difference.
As i understand, "the robot" it was create to help to everyone to work rare
dx on air, and for that it is a great tool, bring the possibility to everyone
to take a "new one" to our account and we are all happy with that. Im totally
agree and i like !!!
But obviously contesting it is different.
Imagine someone program a robot that only will spot UA0 and not UA9. This both
prefixes are competing for Asian and they don't have the same help during the
contest.
Imagine an scenario: Russian DX contest
UA0XXX have 24 spots in a 24 hours contest by the robot
UA9CDC have 0 spots in a 24 hours contest by the robot.
UA00XXX win Asiatic Russia category and UA9CDC it is 2nd with less than 100qsos.
Do you really think we both have the same (more or less) number of spots the
final result will be the same ?
I dont think so, if an spot give us about 15 or 20 qsos by spots (depending de
contest) and bout haved the same a balance number of spots the results will
change. So one station it was helped to win.
There are different concepts.
RBN give the opportunity to all competitors to be announced.
CLUSTER give the opportunity to everyone spot to everyone
ROBOT just help to few group of selected prefixes to have more SPOTS and banned
other ones in the same competition, same category, and repeat that spots to
only a few ones many many many times in detriment others
So if someone HELP to one station 2 or 3 times it is an scandal and if a a
ROBOT help to one station many more times it is normal ?? (There it is
unbalance)
(We talk about CLUSTER, not RBN)
73 de EA8RM
Enviado desde mi iPad
> El 1 mar 2017, a las 19:26, Igor Sokolov <ua9cdc@gmail.com> escribió:
>
> Juan,
>
> With all my respect, to accuse W3LPL in unfair filtering of RBN spots is the
> same as accusing some manual spotter (me for example) that he is spotting EA9
> but do not spot EA8. I spot I what I consider to be useful for my friends
> DXers, what I think would be interesting to them. If I did it automatically
> rather then manually, I would do the same as Frank in order not to pollute DX
> cluster.
>
> Regarding the influence of manual spots, let us wait what Pete N4ZR will find
> out. All the contesters that I know are sure using RBN and/or clusters that
> have RBN feed along with manual spots.
>
> 73, Igor UA9CDC
>
>
> 01.03.2017 6:49, Juan Hidalgo EA8RM пишет:
>> Hi guys !!
>>
>> I NEVER said that RBN banned EA8!! i know how it works and works great.
>> (someone change the discussion titled)
>>
>> to VE9AA:
>> I told that few stations are SPOTTED to CLUSTER and other NOT (from RBN),
>> and if they are in the same Country/zone/continent it is unfair. just that,
>> I use RBN and specially to check conditions to call dx. FB tool.
>>
>>
>> to W0MU:
>> i´m agree with you in your sentence "There is nothing stopping someone else
>> from creating a tool that does something else is there?" but if in the
>> same competition you SPOT West/AFRICA and not East/AFRICA this is unfair in
>> a competition between stations in the same continent. Its the same if you
>> create a system than in NAQP just spot W1 stations and not W3 stations,
>> Right ? That's what I'm talking about.
>>
>>
>> to W3LPL:
>> Many thanks Franz, i really respect you as a reference in contesting from
>> many years ago. As i learn the system automatically spot wanted dxcc all
>> over the world, ok´, during ARRL and CQWW it is stopped, right, but there
>> are many more contest, for example to qualifying to WRTC (CQ WW WPX CW,IARU
>> HF Championship, Russian DX Contest, WAE DX CW, All Asian DX CW, EUHFC,
>> WAG, IARU R1 FD CW).
>> In all these contest it is a continent competition, if some stations are
>> automatically spotted and other no, there it is something wrong. If i spot
>> 3 times to a friend, he can be DQed for self-spotting,if an automatic
>> system SPOT (cluster, not RBN) spot me 20 times in a 24hours contest...it
>> is also self-spotting or we can called as automatically CQoIP? (im talking
>> about CLUSTER SPOTS not RBN).
>>
>> Well, if EA9 have 24 spots (cluster) on 24 hours contest and EA8 have 0
>> spots (cluster) from the same spotter, and every spot brings about 20
>> QSOS/spot, so EA9 will have 480 QSOs and EA8 will have 0 QSOs coming from
>> spots, that's made a big difference in a contest and it is made by an
>> automatic system who it is helping to just one competitor and not to all
>> competitors in the same level. This happened in all continents during 2015
>> and 2016 while qualification to WRTC, not only in AF. Im not against W3LPL
>> system, it is wonderful DXing tool but contesting it is another history,
>> and there are more contest than CQWW and ARRL.
>>
>> My regards to you Franz, and your effort to improve the world of hamradio,
>> I do not try to attack or to be against the system, I have only proved that
>> it is not fair with all competitors in the same way/level, regardless of
>> which continent they are, this happens in all continents and can give a
>> much superior advantage over each other and can detract from the game. I'm
>> sure it can be improved to make it better.
>>
>> to ALL:
>> Lets to think about...if a friend spot me 3 or 4 times we consider that it
>> is unfair, what about 10, 15 or 24 spots automatically in just a contest?
>>
>> Some differences:
>>
>> .- RBN announce everyone/everywhere.
>> .- LPL system spots just few selected stations during all the test. (not
>> all the stations in a random way)
>>
>> I checked CW SPOTS during 2016 contest season from competitors in the same
>> Continent, spotted by LPL system. (Info by DXsummit)
>>
>> EA9: 158 Spots
>> 3V8: 146 Spots
>> 5H3: 83 spots
>> D4: 57 spots
>> CN: 39 Spots
>> CT3: 11 spots
>> ZS: 6 Spots
>> EA8: 0 Spots
>> ED8X,EF8R,EF8U: 0 Spots
>>
>> It is this compete fairly ??? I don't think so.
>>
>> Many thanks for read it. I dont want start a WAR i just want to make you
>> think about "automatic self-spotting machines" and cheerleaders.
>>
>> 73 de Juan
>> EA8RM / EF8R
>> EF8U Manager.
>>
>> 2017-03-01 0:12 GMT+00:00 Matt IZ3EYZ - Matteo Marzilli <iz3eyz@virgilio.it>
>> :
>>
>>> Frank,
>>>
>>> what EA8RM is trying to explain you is about your auto-forwarding/spotting
>>> service to the classic dx cluster system once a rare/semi-rare dxcc/station
>>> callsign (flagged in your database) is spotted over RBN network by a US
>>> site.
>>>
>>> His point is that your service is basically nothing else but a
>>> cheerleading machine. And actually it is even if you don't intend to do so.
>>> So he's complaining the fact that from EA8 not only he has to compete
>>> against other rarer AF stations that attract more callers as per nature but
>>> that he needs to face the unfair advantage provided by your feature as well.
>>>
>>> It's a known fact that a classic dx cluster spot nowadays still
>>> attracts/generates much more traffic/pileup compared to a RBN spot. We see
>>> such a boost even from Italy.
>>> It's also true that you stopped doing so in CQWW/ARRL but there are other
>>> major contests like WPX, IARU, WAEDC, RDXC, etc and in these contests your
>>> feature is on and it's pretty annoying to say the least.
>>>
>>> FYI I can tell you here on the European side we see the same effect
>>> reported by EA8RM.
>>> On one side we have the "W3LPL group" which includes the semi-rare
>>> European countries (ie. LX, E7, CU, T7, etc, just to name a few) but even
>>> common countries on specific bands that are relevant for US (ie. ES/YL/CT
>>> on 160, etc) while on the other we find I, F, G, DL, EA, 9A, etc.
>>> The picture is that semi-rare EU stations/countries in your database get
>>> an instant pileup everytime they change QRG/band (and they already have
>>> some advantage as per nature), all others have to wait some humans to spot
>>> them if that ever happens.
>>>
>>> It would be wise if you turn your feature off at least in all major
>>> contests, not just CQWW/ARRL (the world doesn't end there).
>>> AFAIK this is something I already asked you several years ago privately by
>>> email.
>>>
>>> Regards.
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Messaggio originale-----
>>> Da: CQ-Contest [mailto:cq-contest-bounces@contesting.com] Per conto di
>>> donovanf@starpower.net
>>> Inviato: martedì 28 febbraio 2017 20:10
>>> A: cq-contest@contesting.com
>>> Oggetto: Re: [CQ-Contest] Ea8's banned from RBN? Hmmm
>>>
>>> Juan,
>>>
>>>
>>> With all respect for your excellent contest results over many years, the
>>> issue you're describing SIMPLY DOES NOT EXIST in the CQ WW and ARRL CW DX
>>> contests because the W3LPL automated CW and RTTY DX spotter HAS ALWAYS BEEN
>>> TURNED OFF during both of those DX contests!
>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps your complaint is about the Reverse Beacon Network, If it is, I
>>> don't understand your complaint...
>>>
>>>
>>> 73
>>> Frank
>>> W3LPL
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: "Juan Hidalgo EA8RM" <ea8cac@gmail.com>
>>> Cc: cq-contest@contesting.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 2:52:25 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Ea8's banned from RBN? Hmmm
>>>
>>> Hello Mike:
>>>
>>>
>>> What happens if LPL system spot all NA stations and not V31MU when you're
>>> there???
>>> Will be you happy with that ?
>>>
>>> Or imagine that the system don't spot PR stations (common dxcc) and just
>>> spot you every 10 min (uncommon dxcc( , both in NA. it's that's fair ?
>>>
>>> That what I mean Mike
>>>
>>> It looks CQoIP !!
>>>
>>> 73 de EA8RM
>>>
>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone
>>>
>>>> El 28 feb 2017, a las 14:03, W0MU Mike Fatchett <w0mu@w0mu.com>
>>> escribió:
>>>> LPL has created a tool that does something different. It is what it is.
>>> When that system first came about many Cluster owners decided to ignore
>>> those spots until the system was refined better. EA8's are spotted just
>>> fine. LPL does not sponsor and run contests. It is just one tool that
>>> appears to be created for DXers.
>>>> There is nothing stopping someone else from creating a tool that does
>>> something else is there?
>>>> The LPL system is dumped into the regular cluster system so what exactly
>>> is the problem? There is no secret gateway to LPL spots that only certain
>>> contesters use etc. Smart folks will connect to many different clusters to
>>> make sure they get the spot as soon as possible to avoid packet pileups.
>>>> There are plenty of tools out there to be used. Pick the ones that work
>>> for you. Not being spotting on LPL's system is a non issue.
>>>> W0MU
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/28/2017 7:07 AM, Eric M. Guzman, P.E. wrote:
>>>>> Mike, please allow me to jump in.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think Juan RM is not referring in general to RBN network. It looks
>>> like W3LPL (at least) has some kind of RBN to "Normal Cluster" gateway in
>>> which RBN spots that meets certain criteria, are forwarded to "Normal
>>> Clusters". Apparently the criteria is rareness.
>>>>> So Juan point is, during a contest, he is competing with another AF
>>> station. He finds unfair that W3LPL keeps forwarding his rare AF competitor
>>> RBN spots to normal clusters while not forwarding his spotd because he is
>>> not rare enough.
>>>>> I think Juan has a valid point if it is tbe way he describes.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73 Eric G. NP3A
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On February 28, 2017 2:19:51 AM "Mike Smith VE9AA" <ve9aa@nbnet.nb.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>> N1EN says".Keep in mind EA8's aren't banned from RBN.."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> EA8RM says (in part)". The EA8s are banned from the system I don't
>>> know why,
>>>>>> but it is very easy to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> check.."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From Mike VE9AA:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Juan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not sure where you got your information from, and I am not an
>>> authority
>>>>>> on the RBN by any means, but I find that statement quite odd indeed !
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can check this out yourself and prove that it's just not true my
>>> friend.
>>>>>> (I did a search myself of EA8's and see 100 CW and RTTY spots from
>>> several
>>>>>> EA8's just this afternoon in the past couple hours alone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Go to some band that is open. (20m in the daytime, 40m in the evening).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pick a clear frequency.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Use a good antenna and normal power and call CQ EA8RM TEST 4 or 5
>>> times.
>>>>>> (all at the same speed)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Repeat a couple times on the same frequency just to be sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Go to: http://www.reversebeacon.net/srch.php
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Type in EA8RM. Hit enter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am sure the page will be full from all over EU or NA (or both,
>>> depending
>>>>>> on your power, antenna, prop,e tc).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Try it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> GL !
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CU in the next contest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike VE9AA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CQ-Contest mailing list
>>>>>> CQ-Contest@contesting.com
>>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>
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