Re: [CQ-Contest] KU1CW location

[N4ZR <n4zr@comcast.net>]

This whole argument perplexes me.  If a properly-licensed US control 
operator is present at the station being operated remotely, the 
licensing status of any remote operators makes no difference toanything.
73, Pete N4ZR
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On 6/7/2017 1:26 PM, Peter Bowyer wrote:
> Bob
>
> The scope of CEPT Recommendation T/R 61-01, to which the US is a
> signatory and under which 97.101 grants reciprocal privileges, is for
> short-term visitors to the country concerned. By omission, remote
> operation from outside the country is excluded.
>
> You can find the full text of the Recommendation here
> http://www.ecodocdb.dk/Docs/doc98/official/pdf/TR6101.pdf. You'll note
> that the US is listed in Appendix 4 as a non-CEPT member who has
> applied and been accepted under the Recommendation, meaning its
> privileges apply multilaterally between the US and the other
> signatories.
>
> 97.101 further restricts the licensee to the operating conditions of
> their home license, which is more restrictive than 61-01. Hence no >
> 400W for G licensees, etc.
>
> I agree with others that a formal ruling from contest sponsors or the
> FCC on remote operation would be welcome, but it's clear that remote
> operation is not within the scope of 61-01.
>
> Peter
>
> On 7 June 2017 at 17:18,  <w5ov@w5ov.com> wrote:
> > And, nowhere in that agreement does it support anything you're claiming.
> >
> > Please quote any legal document that explicitly says otherwise.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Bob W5OV
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, June 7, 2017 11:23 am, Peter Bowyer wrote:
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >
> > > You failed to quote 97.107(b)(1). Which says :-
> > >
> > >
> > > "The terms of the agreement between the alien's government and the
> > > United States;"
> > >
> > >
> > > There is a multilateral operating agreement between the US and the
> > > CEPT countries.
> > >
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> > >
> > > On 7 June 2017 at 15:29,  <w5ov@w5ov.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Peter,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Can you quote an actual rule that says what you claim?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In Part 97.107, nothing like what you and others are alleging is
> > > > justified, nor even mentioned.  In the USA, the FCC rules take
> > > > precedence in all cases, and there is nothing in the FCC rules that
> > > > supports your claim of CEPT rules taking precedence over any operations
> > > > within the USA under any circumstances.
> > > >
> > > > Specifically:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 97.107 (b)(2)
> > > > "The operating terms and conditions of the amateur service license
> > > > granted by the alien's government"
> > > >
> > > > This does not say anything about operating privileges. They are covered
> > > > in the next part.  The "terms and conditions *of the amateur service
> > > > license*" refer explicitly to only the *license* and its validity -
> > > > issue dates, expirations, etc.
> > > >
> > > > In contrast, operating privileges are discussed *explicitly* in the
> > > > next part:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In the case of the UK:  97.107(b)(3) applies:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "The applicable rules of this part, but not to exceed the control
> > > > operator privileges of an FCC-granted Amateur Extra Class operator
> > > > license".
> > > >
> > > > This is germane regarding operating privileges and what it says is:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "The applicable rules of this part" which means all USA allocations,
> > > > modes, restrictions and all other rules and regulations that apply in
> > > > the USA *for Extra Class operators*.  In other words, All foreigners
> > > > eligible for reciprocal operating are granted full USA Extra Class
> > > > privileges - but no more.
> > > >
> > > > As one example of "no more", reciprocal licensees cannot operate SSB in
> > > >   the USA CW / Digital bands, even though their licenses back home may
> > > > permit it.
> > > >
> > > > In all cases, USA FCC Law takes precedence over all other countries'
> > > > rules.
> > > >
> > > > That is what it *actually* says.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You're adding things to it that it does not say.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 73,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bob W5OV
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, June 7, 2017 3:08 am, Peter Bowyer wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Yes, but the conditions under which the reciprocal privileges are
> > > > > granted (in this case ) are governed by CEPT and adopted by FCC. In
> > > > > order to benefit from the CEPT arrangements, FCC has to adopt its
> > > > > rules.
> > > > >
> > > > > The 'no remote operation' principle comes from the CEPT rules.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Peter G4MJS
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 6 Jun 2017 10:46 p.m., <w5ov@w5ov.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >  From what I read at the link you provided, it is precisely as I
> > > > > > said:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "US Law applies and the operators must comply with FCC rules as if
> > > > > > they were physically within the USA".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I see nothing that changes that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > More specifically, anyone operating a remote station in the USA
> > > > > > must obey the USA FCC Law as if they were here in the USA.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 73,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob W5OV
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, June 5, 2017 12:02 pm, Peter Bowyer wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sorry Bob you're wrong there. FCC has adopted the CEPT T/R 61-01
> > > > > > > regulation to make reciprocal licensing easier.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.arrl.org/foreign-licenses-operating-in-u-s
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Peter G4MJS
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 5 June 2017 at 13:07,  <w5ov@w5ov.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > N2RJ said:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > " Just be careful that you are indeed doing so. CEPT T/R 61-01
> > > > > > > > is not sufficient authorization for a European licensee to
> > > > > > > > operate an internet remote base in the US while being physically
> > > > > > > > present overseas...."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > EU rules do not apply to amateur radio transmissions made from
> > > > > > > > within the USA under any circunstances.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Where the operator is located is completely irrelevant.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What happens on the air from a USA station is governed by US
> > > > > > > > FCC
> > > > > > > > Law -
> > > > > > > > nothing else.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > US Law applies and the operators must comply with FCC rules as
> > > > > > > > if they were physically within the USA.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 73,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob W5OV
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: CQ-Contest [mailto:cq-contest-bounces@contesting.com] On
> > > > > > > > Behalf
> > > > > > Of
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ria
> > > > > > > > Jairam
> > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, June 3, 2017 5:53 PM
> > > > > > > > To: W4AAW@aol.com
> > > > > > > > Cc: CQ-Contest Reflector <cq-contest@contesting.com>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] KU1CW location
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > W1VE and other serious operators of remote-capable stations
> > > > > > > > > will agree with me:  We remote-capable stations are not trying
> > > > > > > > > to fool anyone or gain some sort of geographical or unfair
> > > > > > > > > advantage. We're
> > > > > > > > > just being
> > > > > > > > competitive and striving to do so strictly within the rules.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is really nothing wrong with trying to gain an advantage
> > > > > > > > during a contest. That's what contesting is. As long as it is
> > > > > > > > within the rules. Operating from elsewhere to do better in
> > > > > > > > contests has been a staple of contesting for pretty much as long
> > > > > > > > as it has existed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2. Alex is a member of TeamW4AAW, which operates the first
> > > > > > > > > Totally
> > > > > > > > > Remote
> > > > > > > > M/M station.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We have 31 team members who operate W4AAW's positions from
> > > > > > > > > all over NA, from Panama,  Europe and Asia, provided they meet
> > > > > > > > > legal/licensing
> > > > > > > > requirements.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just be careful that you are indeed doing so. CEPT T/R 61-01 is
> > > > > > > > not sufficient authorization for a European licensee to operate
> > > > > > > > an internet remote base in the US while being physically present
> > > > > > > >   overseas. Even if they were allowed, their home license
> > > > > > > > restrictions and power limits (while not exceeding US Extra)
> > > > > > > > apply. In the UK it is 400 watts for full licenses and in
> > > > > > > > Germany it is 750W for class A licenses. Other
> > > > > > > > European countries
> > > > > > > > may be different. The best thing for them to do to be compliant
> > > > > > > > with the laws of the US is to get a US license. There are VE
> > > > > > > > sessions in many countries overseas and one can get a license by
> > > > > > > > passing the (now very
> > > > > > > > easy) exams. No code required, even.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 4.  The 3830 comments for KU1CW @ W4AAW in the CQWPX CW test
> > > > > > > > > very clearly show the  locations of each operator.
> > > > > > > > An awards chaser who isn't competing in the contest is unlikely
> > > > > > > > to know about nor care about 3830. The best thing to do would be
> > > > > > > > to put the location of the stations in the QRZ profile, which is
> > > > > > > > the first place they look.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 73
> > > > > > > > Ria, N2RJ
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 4:30 PM, W4AAW@aol.com via CQ-Contest
> > > > > > > > <cq-contest@contesting.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Here is the correct information on KU1CW in the CQWPX CW
> > > > > > > > > contest.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1. Alex has just moved to Washington State.  He has not yet
> > > > > > > > > modified his
> > > > > > > > license to reflect this recent development.
> > > > > > > > > 2. Alex is a member of TeamW4AAW, which operates the first
> > > > > > > > > Totally
> > > > > > > > > Remote
> > > > > > > > M/M station.  We have 31 team members who operate W4AAW's
> > > > > > > > positions from all over NA, from Panama, Europe and Asia,
> > > > > > > > provided they meet legal/licensing requirements.
> > > > > > > > > 3. Since a W4 call sign is common in WPX tests, I suggested
> > > > > > > > > to Alex
> > > > > > > > > we use
> > > > > > > > KU1CW for the contest.  Alex agreed. So, the entry (as shown on
> > > > > > > >   3830)
> > > > > > > > was KU1CW@ W4AAW.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 4.  The 3830 comments for KU1CW @ W4AAW in the CQWPX CW test
> > > > > > > > > very clearly
> > > > > > > > show the locations of each operator.
> > > > > > > > > If some people had bothered to read information that is
> > > > > > > > > readily available
> > > > > > > > in that posting, it would not have been necessary to cast
> > > > > > > > aspersions.
> > > > > > > > > During some periods of the contest, Alex even operated SO2R,
> > > > > > > > > using two
> > > > > > > > W4AAW positions remotely, from Washington State.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > W1VE and other serious operators of remote-capable stations
> > > > > > > > > will agree
> > > > > > > > with me:  We remote-capable stations are not trying to fool
> > > > > > > > anyone or gain some sort of geographical or unfair advantage.
> > > > > > > > We're just
> > > > > > > > being competitive and striving to do so strictly within the
> > > > > > > > rules.
> > > > > > > > > Cheers!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 73, Mike W4AAW
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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