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Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System

To: rfi@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System
From: "Dave (NK7Z)" <dave@nk7z.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2022 10:57:06 -0800
List-post: <mailto:rfi@contesting.com>
Tell me about it! I had a neighbor start on me about their stove clock getting reset when I transmitted on 17 Meters...

They complained to the vendor, and the vendor told them it was the Amateur Radio Operators fault...

That took several months to sort out... Still not fully sorted out, but I no longer care. The neighbor told me they were trying to game the stove manufacturer into getting a better model via the RFI angle... I added that to my RFI log, and ceased worrying about it at that point... I now work DX on 17... :)

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 12/25/22 10:22, David Eckhardt wrote:
We once owned an Allen 2-manual "digital" church organ which we lost in a major forest fire in 2012.  Yes, I played the pipe organ.  I remember when Part 15 was tightened and Allen went through quite an intense effort to repackage and decouple everything so it would comply with the tighter standards.

I could operate legal power to an inverted Vee which had the feedpoint directly over the house at roughly 15 feet above the roof.  It was fed with parallel conductor transmission line.  I never.....never......interfered with that organ on any band and at any output power to the feedline.  It didn't matter whether it was on or off, no interference.

Not all appliances are so responsible.

Dave - WØLEV

On Sun, Dec 25, 2022 at 5:37 PM Hare, Ed, W1RFI <w1rfi@arrl.org <mailto:w1rfi@arrl.org>> wrote:

    About 25 years ago, ARRL was contacted by an engineer who worked
    with the FCC.  He had been assigned to rewrite the FCC's RFI
    material. We worked together over a number of months and came up
    with a book on consumer interference that truly spoke to the issues.
    It lived on the FCC web page for quite a while.

    Unfortunately, the FCC, in its wisdom, decided that the RFI material
    needed to be simplified.  It removed much of what we had included
    earlier.  Fortunately, ARRL kept a copy and because it was authored
    by the US government, it is public domain and may be circulated and
    used freely.  So we kept that technically accurate material on the
    ARRL web page.  The information on interference to consumer
    equipment is quite to the point and will go a long way towards
    helping a neighbor to understand.  My personal favorite from the
    book is the following:

    "Stereos, electronic organs, and intercom devices, among others, can
    react to nearby radio transmitters. When this happens, the device
    improperly functions as a radio receiver."

    The text in its entirely is available at:

    http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/FCC%20RFI%20Information/tvibook.pdf 
<http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/FCC%20RFI%20Information/tvibook.pdf>

    ARRL also worked with the Consumer Electronics Association and
    prepared a joint publication to help consumers understand
    interference causes and cures.

    This is no longer printed as a pamphlet, but the text is still
    mostly current. (I can see some of the sources at the end need to be
    updated.)

    The pamphlet text is available at:

    https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf 
<https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf>

    In the event a neighbor complains to the FCC, if they cite amateur
    radio, the case will end up going to Laura Smith.  She is well
    educated on the types of interference that can and cannot be caused
    by rules violations at an amateur station, so there is little risk
    that the complaint alone will cause the amateur any problems. It is
    most likely that she will send the case to ARRL, who will work with
    the amateur and his/her neighbor under our cooperative agreements
    with FCC staff.

    Ed Hare, W1RFI
    ARRL Lab


    What To Do if You Have an Electronic Interference Problem - American
    Radio Relay
    League<https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf 
<https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf>>
    Page 5 of 7 Try the Easy Things First Sometimes, the easiest
    solutions are the best. Many cases of interference can be resolved
    without the need for technical investigations or knowledge.
    www.arrl.org <http://www.arrl.org>

    ________________________________
    From: RFI <rfi-bounces+w1rfi=arrl.org@contesting.com
    <mailto:arrl.org@contesting.com>> on behalf of Dave (NK7Z)
    <dave@nk7z.net <mailto:dave@nk7z.net>>
    Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2022 10:13 AM
    To: rfi@contesting.com <mailto:rfi@contesting.com>
    <rfi@contesting.com <mailto:rfi@contesting.com>>
    Subject: Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System

    Hi Dale,

    For the most part that is not going to work well...  No matter how much
    you talk to your next door neighbor if you interfere with their <insert
    device name here>, it is almost always your fault in their minds...
    The logic goes like this:

    "I have a <insert device name here>, it works 99% of the time, but when
    you transmit it does not work..."

    How do you think most people are going to react to that situation...  So
    as Amateurs, we start out handicapped, because the consumer is not
    educated in how RFI responsibility is parsed out.  The consumer is sure
    it is you, not them...

    Now lets reverse the victim status...

    The consumer installs a multi thousand dollar <insert device name here>:

    "I paid thousands to to install this, and had professionals install
    it...  I bought it from a manufacturer we all know and love.  It can't
    be my equipment..."

    Again-- education of the consumer is the driver here.  If the consumer
    is happy, and the system is in place, the Amateur is already behind the
    8-Ball, and again, the Amateur is handicapped as a result of lack of
    education on the consumers part, with regards to parsing RFI
    responsibility.

    This places an installer, or manufacturer, in the position of telling
    the consumer that their newly installed multi thousand dollar widget,
    may interfere with the amateur next door, and they, (the consumer), will
    have to pay more to fix the issue...

    Again, the consumer is going to whine about this state of affairs, and
    neither the  the manufacture, or the vendor, are going to tell the
    consumer this, as they may lose the sale...  Again, education issues for
    the consumer, and maybe penalty's for the vendor if they don't tell the
    consumer might help...

    Until the consumer, not the Amateur, is directly affected by RFI, the
    RFI nightmare we all live in, (if we are a city), will continue.

    Part of the RFI "fix" MUST include education beyond the Part 15, or 18,
    stickers on equipment to consumers...  The consumer views these stickers
    like the tags on mattresses that say "DO NOT REMOVE UNDER PENALTY OF
    LAW", they are ignored, and removed, for the most part.

    I really don't see how this will get solved in my lifetime...  At 70, I
    have perhaps 15 to 20, (if I am lucky), years left...

    It will take that long just to cycle out most of the old gear, if a
    mandate were to be put in place today.

    I applaud the efforts of the ARRL, the only way to work this issue is to
    educate everyone involved, and get standards in place...

    Maybe the next generation of hams will see less RFI...

    With regards to contracts...  You are dead correct Dale!

    I was lucky, I got my HVAC installer to put in his contract that if RFI
    were to occur at a level I was not happy with, they would fix the issue,
    or remove and replace the HVAC system.  I doubt I could get that
    concession again today...  No RFI, occurred however, as we discussed
    this with the vendor prior to install, (no PWM motors were used), and
    the vendor contacted the manufacturer BEFORE starting on the project.

    What next door neighbor is going to tell a vendor, you had better be
    ready to charge me more, if the ham next door complains...

    Consumers MUST be educated about RFI responsibilities, as part of an
    overall fix, if RFI is to be reduced...

    73, and thanks,
    Dave (NK7Z)
    https://www.nk7z.net <https://www.nk7z.net>
    ARRL Volunteer Examiner
    ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
    ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

    On 12/25/22 01:04, Dale wrote:
     > so it would seem that we hams try to work with our neighbors to
    minimize the problems from their systems
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--
*Dave - WØLEV*


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