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Re: [TenTec] Re : [Elecraft] Trying to improve the K2's IIP3;mission (al

To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TenTec] Re : [Elecraft] Trying to improve the K2's IIP3;mission (almost...) impossible!
From: "w3sz" <w3sz@comcast.net>
Reply-to: tentec@contesting.com
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 18:39:38 -0400
List-post: <mailto:tentec@contesting.com>
Hi, Leif,

I thought you would like to see this.

I don't think Bill understands your measurements.

I enclosed his email address for you, as well ;)

73,

Roger
W3SZ

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <btippett@alum.mit.edu>
To: <tentec@contesting.com>; <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 10:32 AM
Subject: [TenTec] Re : [Elecraft] Trying to improve the K2's IIP3; mission
(almost...) impossible!


> Hi Dick,
>
> PA2DW wrote:
>  >By the way, talking about IIP3 values. The New Icom radio IC7800 claims
+40
> dBm IIP3, but I can not find the spacing with which they measured that. 5,
> 20 maybe 100 kHz!?!?! Does anyone know that?
>
>
>          Trying to improve the K2's IP3 may be nearly as impossible
> as finding Icom specifications!  There is no qualification anywhere in
> their brochure or specifications as to signal spacing.  The closest
> I have been able to find is the following which is a copy of the Test
> Report included with each 7800.  It implies IP3 is measured at 100 kHz
> (which is stated for the dynamic range measurement).
>
> http://www.qsl.net/ab4oj/icom/ic7800/7800test.html
>
> The first couple of SM5BSZ's measurements in Table 6 below imply IP3
> of +40 dBm at 20 kHz, although the measurement technique is flawed
> for measurements at normal levels for interfering signals.  However,
> if IP3 is met for interfering signals of  -1 dBm (equivalent to an S9+72
dB),
> it should certainly be at least as good at normal levels (e.g. ARRL uses
> -17 dBm which is equivalent to S9+56 dB).
>
> http://antennspecialisten.se/~sm5bsz/dynrange/ssa2004/ssa2004.htm
>
>          I believe a more worthwhile mod to the K2 would be a better
> filter.  I've heard rumors that someone may be looking into this.  My
> reason for saying so is the serious -24 dB degradation of the K2's
> IMD for spacings under 5 kHz.  Here's the data:
>
> IMD @ 5 kHz     91 dB (ARRL)
> IMD @ 2 kHz  70 dB (Sherwood)
> IMD @ 1 kHz  67 dB (ARRL)
>
> Sources:
> http://www2.arrl.org/members-only/prodrev/pdf/lab/k2.pdf (graph page 20)
> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
>
> By comparison, Orion's performance at close spacings using the 1000 Hz
> roofing filter degrades only about -8 dB from 5 kHz to 1 kHz:
>
> IMD @ 5 kHz  92 dB (ARRL)
> IMD @ 5 kHz  94 dB (Sherwood...measured 95 dB using 1800 Hz filter)
> IMD @ 2 kHz  93 dB (Sherwood)
> IMD @ 1 kHz  84 dB (ARRL)
> IMD @ 1 kHz  85 dB (Sherwood)
>
> BTW, these measurements give me confidence in both ARRL and
> Sherwood since they only differ slightly at 1 kHz and 5 kHz.
>
> Sources:
> http://www2.arrl.org/members-only/prodrev/pdf/lab/orion_etrr.pdf (bottom
> left graph p. 20)
> http://dayton.akorn.net/pipermail/orion/2004-March/000309.html
> http://dayton.akorn.net/pipermail/orion/2004-March/000310.html
>
>          Please don't shoot the messenger...I own both a K2 and
> Orion and am very happy with both.  And I also predict both will
> probably beat the IC-7800's IMD at 5 kHz spacings whenever ARRL
> or others publish test reports.  A hint of this can be found in Table
> 5 of SM5BSZ's data which I belive is a convoluted measurement
> of BDR.  Although it is impossible to make direct comparisons, it
> appears BDR performance degrades seriously at close spacings:
>
> Relative signal strength to cause 3 dB blocking (referenced to the
> + 1.2 dBm signal needed to cause the same blocking at 100 kHz):
>
> 50 kHz  -6.2 dB
> 20 kHz  -14.1 dB
> 5 kHz    -36.7 dB
> 2 kHz     -38.7 dB
> 1 kHz   -51.8 dB
>
> These results are SO BAD it makes me wonder if either the 7800 or
> measurement technique was defective.  If I've misinterpreted the data,
> please do comment!  For comparison, both the K2 and Orion BDR
> degrade in the order of -10 dB over the same range of interfering signal
> frequencies, which is why I have trouble believing the above.
>
> Sources:  BDR graph on page 19 of K2 ETR cited previously.
> BDR graph on page 19 of Orion ETR cited previously.
> SM5BSZ webpage cited previously.
>
>          Please do not share this data with any Icom 7800 zealots...
> they simply do NOT want to see any performance comparisons
> with the $599 K2.  ;-)
>
>                                  73,  Bill  W4ZV
>
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