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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

To: <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question
From: "Tom W8JI" <w8ji@w8ji.com>
Reply-to: Tom W8JI <w8ji@w8ji.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:45:37 -0400
List-post: <topband@contesting.com">mailto:topband@contesting.com>
Tom, I'm afraid I disagree but agree with some of that, I am using a 43dB gain preamp since 2010 with not a single failure yet, but I understand your point. It is so delicate to implement that most of fellow that try it fail.
Even aluminum enclosure does not shield it enough, 40 dB gain is 10.000
voltage gain, it needs a dual shield with steel to cut magnetic field, the
feed lines must be decoupled over 80 dB, relays must be 100dB or more in
isolation, and much more details that I won't cover.

It is not a weekend project.


JC,

The problem is gain and noise figure, not shielding.

Let's assume a receiver with 250 Hz bandwidth has a MDS (3dB S+S/N) of -135 dBm. This is a 15 dB receiver noise figure.

A 0.5 dB noise figure front end amplifier with NO other losses would produce -149.5 dB MDS. That is the absolute maximum MDS sensitivity obtainable with 250 Hz BW and 0.5dB total input noise figure.

If we include the receiver's noise figure, 14.5 dBm gain would result is a system composite noise figure of 3.44 dB. Increasing amplifier gain (with no change in amplifier 0.5 dB noise figure) results in the following system composite noise figures:

14.5dB = 3.44 dB
20 dB =  1.55 dB
25 dB =  0.86 dB
30 dB =  0.62 dB
35 dB = 0.54 dB
40 dB = 0.51 dB

At someplace around 20-25 dB, you get into system limits. The improvement from 30 dB to 40 dB is only 0.11 dB. No one will notice that.

This of course varies with the receiver, but few receivers are worse than this example.

Let's say we have an input stage NF of .5 dB with 15 dB gain. In order to have a cascade NF of .7dB the second stage has to have about a 2 dB NF.

All of this is peanuts. A .6dB noise figure is a 3 dB MDS of -149.4 dBm, while a 2 dB NF is a MDS of -148 dBm with 250 Hz BW.

There is a point where inevitable system flaws make using an antenna with such negative gain to require less than 1 dB NF impossible for "copy this plan". This is why Beazley's out-of-phase small horizontal elements were mostly met with didn't work. The problem with models is we can build perfect systems that we cannot repeat in the real world.

Again my example of the small commercial loop I have. It limits by loop internal noise by many dB at my location, and common mode on the cable is very evident. If I moved the same antenna to a location with 20 dB more external ambient noise floor, it would limit on external noise.

It seems unlikely most compact antennas are being used in locations so quiet they need 30 dB gain, or .6 dB NF. If they had room, they would not have as much ambient site noise.

I'm not being disagreeable, just describing the practical limits.

73 Tom
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