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Re: Topband: 4sq vs SAL 30 Mkii in a forest

To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: 4sq vs SAL 30 Mkii in a forest
From: cqtestk4xs--- via Topband <topband@contesting.com>
Reply-to: cqtestk4xs@aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 04:58:58 +0000 (UTC)
List-post: <mailto:topband@contesting.com>
I have  had both.
First, the SAL-30 is currently being used at my station and hears considerably 
better than my 160 vertical.  It exhibits F/B somewhere around 15-20 dBs on 
160.  It is located about 100 ft from the nearest antenna (the westernmost 
vertical of my 4 sq for 80), about 150 feet from my tower and 175 ft from my 
160 vertical.  Other than that it is in the clear...no trees at all.  I am 
totally satisfied with its performance.  It hears about the same as my 4 sq for 
80, and down from my 4 el at 85 ft for 40.  Although sometimes it does hear 
better on 40 and 80, but not often.
In FL I had a Hi-Z array but I always felt it was compromised.  Why?  It was in 
the back part of my lot where several elements were very close to the trees.  
One element was almost touching the trees...big oaks with lots of Spanish moss. 
 I also had a run of TV cable of 550 ft to it.  This is not to bad mouth the 
antenna system, I just felt I had put it in the wrong part of the yard and it 
might have performed better with less of a run and further away from the trees.
I sold the station about a year after I bought the antenna so I never moved the 
system.
By the way, 160 was hopping over the weekend out here in the ARRLDX....331 
stations and many were VERY LOUD.
Bill K4XS/KH7B/KH7XS


-----Original Message-----
From: Lee STRAHAN <k7tjr@msn.com>
To: Joe Subich, W4TV <lists@subich.com>; topband@contesting.com 
<topband@contesting.com>
Sent: Tue, Feb 19, 2019 4:15 am
Subject: Re: Topband: 4sq vs SAL 30 Mkii in a forest

  Joe and all,
  Looking at the YCCC plots show all back lobes on 160 meters to be right at 20 
dB down. The Hi-Z 4-square as shipped has only 2 side lobes and both are at 20 
dB down with a notch directly off the back at usual 30+ dB down. Its true there 
are plots around that show the -13 dB side lobes on the 4-square which is a 
special phase delay to maximize the RDF another 0.1 dB or so.
  In addition, the 4-square suffers NO degradation in pattern and produces the 
same F/B and RDF on 80 meters as it does on 160. The YCCC is degraded on 80m. 
If the 4-square is built on a 60 foot side dimension instead of the usual 80 
feet there is less than 1/10 reduction in RDF on 160 and the nearly same 160 
meter performance is also available on 40 meters as well.
    There is one fact that remains. Having any receiving antenna that works is 
always better than none at all. Compromised or not. The only indicator of 
performance in the long run is smiles behind the dial. Hope you, K7XH get lots 
of private messages to help you with your choice as well. I am thinking your 
trees are a non-issue.

Lee  K7TJR
Hi-Z Antennas


    


 > Any experience with the same or  thoughts?

I would recommend looking into the YCCC "9 circle" (or "5 square") array.  Even 
though the kits are no longer available boards appear to be available from the 
PI4CC group.

The vertical arrays are less susceptible to wildlife damage than the SAL (due 
to the low horizontal wire of the SAL) and provide a higher signal level 
(before the preamp).

I like the YCCC design because it has a cleaner pattern than the
4 square (the center element is not "split" and thus does not cause a spurious 
sidelobe response).  Further, the "9 circle"
version provides 45 degree pattern selection (vs. 90 degrees for the 4 square) 
and if 90 degree steps are acceptable, the 5 square version provides the higher 
RDF in the same space (60' diagonal square).

As long as you keep the verticals (or the ends of the SAL) 10 - 15'
or so from tree trunks and keep the "brush' out of the array any degradation 
should be minimal (mostly as additional losses) with any of the antenna designs.

If you are comfortable with NEC (antenna modelling), I urge you to run the 
models of all three designs and make your own choice.  Based on the models, the 
SAL appear to be "unstable" and more prone to environmental factors that the 
"amplified" vertical arrays.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2019-02-18 2:56 PM, Mike Fischer wrote:
> Hi all, newb to the topband 160 reflector here so thank you for any 
> coaching or corrections on protocol…
> 
> I live on a heavily forested (douglas firs - almost all of which are 100’+) 
> piece of land.
> 
> I have enough room left to put up either an SAL 30 or a  4sq of 20’ 
> verts with 80’ spacing. HiZ probably
> 
> Problem is regardless of which I choose, there will be at least one or two 
> trees in the “infield“ and foliage around the edges.
> 
> Any experience with the same or  thoughts? Grateful for the coaching 
> please feel free to reply direct to  mikebfischer@comcast.net
> 
> 73
> K7XH
> 


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