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Re[2]: [TowerTalk] Re: [Force 12 Talk] Rivets

To: <>
Subject: Re[2]: [TowerTalk] Re: [Force 12 Talk] Rivets
From: (
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:46:26 -0500
Bashing is a problem, but I also know that manufacturers tend to gloss over
problems (this is probably being kind) they have had or are having, and ham
manufacturers (without naming names) are some of the worst for this

These internet reflectors are the best way we have to gather honest data,
assuming that the users apply this medium responsibly.

What should really happen is that the manufacturers themselves should be
completely open in all dealings with their customers instead of lying about
defects, problems, etc.  Product updates, service bulletins, etc. should be
publicly available for download from websites.   It is their responsibility
to "make things right" when there are manufacturing defects, rather than
try to hide them using the popular phrase "this is the first time I've
heard of that problem".  However, I've yet to find one antenna manufacturer
that treats everyone honestly and openly.  Some are much better than
others, but they are all far from where I think they should be.

Manufacturers should provide for registration of their products and then
automatically send out at least email updates when problems are found so
that the customer at least has the option of some remediation.  Serious
manufacturing defects should be the responsibility of the manufacturer to
resolve.  Updates to the product to improve performance or enhance
reliability could be left as an option for the consumer to heed or ignore
and/or pay for as an update.

Unfortunately, the customer is usually left totally in the dark after the
sale until they actually notice a problem (like falling aluminum or a
failed radio).

Not to pick on F12, but as an example, when they discover a manufacturing
defect such as improper riveting, they should hold themselves responsible
to contact each buyer of the product ASAP and offer replacement parts, etc.
When design changes are made to improve products, such as thru bolts in
brackets, that should be issued as a service bulletin either emailed to all
registered users or at least posted on their web site for all to see.

Until this kind of responsibility is assumed by manufacturers, they
certainly have no business protesting when people complain about their
products in open forums like email reflectors.  It is their lack of
responsibility that creates the need for these forums.  I'm quite certain
that we would all welcome the day when this type of discussion was no
longer necessary on reflectors/newsgroups.

73, Ty K3MM

                    Bob Otto                                                    
                    <>             To:                  
                    Sent by:                    cc:                             
                    owner-towertalk@cont        Subject:     Re[2]: [TowerTalk] 
Re: [Force 12     
                            Talk] Rivets                    
                    03/01/2001 08:53 AM                                         
                    Please respond to                                           
                    Bob Otto                                                    

Hello Dale,

I agree.  In fact I'd go a step farther.  I think it's correct that
they DO NOT answer those kinds of posts here.  If they did we'd have
to rename the list to "TowerDabate&Bash"

This list is for technical discussion about Towers, antennas, etc.  I
think it is very pertinent to post a problem with a piece of equipment
and ask if others have seen the same problem and how they handled it.
I can even see suggestions for improvements, etc., for a given product

The problem is that some people use the list as an "equalizer" to
relieve their frustrations and vent their anger.  I belong to many HAM
lists and it's the same on all.  Joe Blow has a problem with a product
and he/she turns it into a "David and Goliath" by bashing the company
and making it a public debate on a list, hoping to scare the company
into doing something because of the bad publicity.

Anyone here can say anything they please.  There's no way for other
readers to know if the person really assembled the product correctly,
substituted parts, used the product in a way that it wasn't designed
for, etc.  The post here was an interesting example.  Two or three
people said they had problems with rivets in high winds.  In this
case, it quickly became "bash Force12" because they don't acknowledge
the problem.  People quickly forgot that Force12 has probably sold
1000's of antennas and has one of the BEST reputations in the entire
industry.  No one says, lets really analyze this problem -- lets' look
at the assembly process. How were the rivets installed. What tools
were used. Were the rivets formed properly. Did the person open holes
to make it easier. Etc., etc., etc.   Some people don't want to "fix
the problem", they just want the company to make them "right",
regardless of what the real "root cause" of the problem was.  Instead,
the charge became "lets make Force12 behave *responsibly*".

It seems to me *WE* have a responsibility to report FACTS and attack a
problem look for a design or process improvements, not to
use our list to whine and bash companies or products.

73 from.......

Bob Otto
Cincinnati, Ohio

Time Written:
8:18:31 AM

DXCC 10M         ** DX is !! **        WAS 10M
       There is a very fine line between
         "HOBBY" and "MENTAL ILLNESS"
When trouble arises and things look really bad,
there is always one individual who perceives a
solution and is willing to take command.
Thursday, March 01, 2001, 2:13:35 AM, you wrote:

>> What does surprise me is that the factory has not felt it
>> necessary to respond
>> to all of the correspondence on this subject.  Are they trying to hide
>> something?

DLM> Huh???

DLM> It seems to me that if someone has spent a few/many hundred dollars on
DLM> antennas and is concerned and/or worried about something that they
DLM> the company may or may not be 'hiding,' they should not be
ratchet-jawing on
DLM> e-mail, they should be on the phone or do it in a formal letter.

DLM> geesh!

DLM> dale, kg5u

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