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Re: [TowerTalk] lp V stepIR

To: "'Scott McClements'" <kc2pih@gmail.com>, "'Tower and HF antenna construction topics.'" <towertalk@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] lp V stepIR
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <lists@subich.com>
Reply-to: lists@subich.com, "Tower and HF antenna construction topics." <towertalk@contesting.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:15:34 -0500
List-post: <towertalk@contesting.com">mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
> Now, before we fire up the LPDA crowd again -  when the LPDA 
> array's boomlength gets to around ~36 feet or greater  with 
> 20 elements, and covering only  14-30Mhz,  the LPDA starts to 
> kick serious butt.  You start to see gain around 7.5dBi, but 
> more importantly the F/R ratio is up around 25dB across all 
> the bands (OWA Yagi style). 

Except when we get to 36 foot booms a yagi is capable of 10 dBi 
on 20 meters (4 element) and 11.5-12 dBi on 10 meters (6 elements). 

Not to bang the SteppIR drum too loudly but the 4 element antenna 
(36 foot boom) does exactly that 10 dBi/25 dB F/R on 20 and high 
11 dBi with a little lower F/R (not enough elements) on 10 meters. 
A good OWA design (5 elements on 20, 6 elements on 10) will also 
provide those gain figures.   With 20 elements to play with, the 
Force 12 "multi-monoband" type designs are also competitive 
performers when the boom length gets longer.   

I have nothing against log-periodic antennas but they are not 
the most efficient use of boom length, wind load or weight. 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
   




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott McClements [mailto:kc2pih@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 2:29 PM
> To: lists@subich.com; Tower and HF antenna construction topics.
> Cc: k2vi@cox.net
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] lp V stepIR
> 
> 
> I also put together a 18 foot boom/ 8 element NEC4 model 
> using the ARRL LPCAD program. My gain figure for the LPDA 
> were a little higher (5.5dBi), but  I agree with what is 
> shown here. Also note, its no contest on the F/R ratio.
> 
> Now, before we fire up the LPDA crowd again -  when the LPDA 
> array's boomlength gets to around ~36 feet or greater  with 
> 20 elements, and covering only  14-30Mhz,  the LPDA starts to 
> kick serious butt.  You start to see gain around 7.5dBi, but 
> more importantly the F/R ratio is up around 25dB across all 
> the bands (OWA Yagi style). Cebik has a model his site on a 
> 52 foot boom / 22 elements  that is around 8.6dBi and the F/R 
> peaks around 37 dB (!!!) on 20 meters. The LPDA is a superior 
> multiband beam once the the boomlength is allowed to grow.
> 
> However, for these "short" boomlengths (say 24 feet and 
> under), there are many other parasitic type beams in the 
> market that provide more raw performance than the LPDA. As 
> you see from Joe's chart, the difference is smaller on 20 
> meters, but as you go up the bands, the Steppir uses the 
> boomlength more effectively.
> 
> -Scott, WU2X
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV 
> <lists@subich.com> wrote:
> >
> >> 3 element stepir and the t8 will radiate almost the same signal 
> >> strength at the other end.
> >
> > Both modeling and theory strongly disagree with this  ...
> >
> > The active portion of an 8 element 13-32 MHz LP on an 180 
> foot boom is 
> > a small portion of the total boom length. Here are model 
> data of an 8 
> > element LP (18 foot boom), the SteppIR 3 element yagi (16 
> foot boom) 
> > and Force 12 C3E (extra 10 meter director and 18 foot boom).
> >
> > The SteppIR/3 vs. 8 element LP vs. C3E (free space):
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> >                   LP            SteppIR            C3E
> >    Band        Gain   F/R     Gain     F/R     Gain   F/R
> >     20          5.0   9.2      7.4     25       6.6   10
> >     17          4.9  12.3      8.3     25       3.0    2
> >     15          4.8  13.0      8.5     20       6.2   11
> >     12          5.0  14.9      8.8     15       4.4    5
> >     10          5.1  14.5      9.0     11       7.4   23
> >      6             n/a        10.1     20          n/a
> >
> > The Log Periodic is a simplified model of an 8 element 
> design on an 18 
> > foot boom.  K9LA's work with the T-6 shows about .5 dB less 
> gain for a 
> > shorter (12 foot boom) antenna while Preliminary 
> (unverified) results 
> > for a 10 element model (24 foot boom) show about .8 dB 
> additional gain 
> > and 1-2 dB better F/B (model data from AO).
> >
> > The SteppIR/3 vs C3E numbers closely parallel the field test data 
> > published by N0AX/K7LXC and SteppIR.
> >
> > One can see that the LP fails to come even close to the SteppIR
> > - falling short my more than 3 dB except on 20 meters.  
> Further, falls 
> > one to two dB short of the typical gain of a two element 
> > (Reflector/Driven with 50 Ohm feed).
> >
> > An LP is a poor trade-off unless you have excess power and need to 
> > operate on any frequency instead of the relatively narrow amateur 
> > bands.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> >   ... Joe, W4TV
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: towertalk-bounces@contesting.com 
> >> [mailto:towertalk-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of anthony
> >> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 9:45 AM
> >> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> >> Subject: [TowerTalk] lp V stepIR
> >>
> >>
> >> 3 element stepir and the t8 will radiate almost the same signal 
> >> strength at the other end.More to fail with the stepir and did you 
> >> see how much they cost??? WOW. big bucks. I would put up 
> the t-8 and 
> >> high grade coax like davis bury-flex. If done right this 
> antenna will 
> >> stay up without any maintenance for 20+ years. No way the step ir 
> >> will do the same. Also you can buy two t-8's and one yaesu 
> g-800s for 
> >> what you would pay for a stepir. Just a thought.
> >>
> >> tony k2vi
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >> TowerTalk@contesting.com 
> >> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
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