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Re: [VHFcontesting] Thoughts on the Digital Modes and VHF Contesting

To: "<VHFcontesting@contesting.com>" <vhfcontesting@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] Thoughts on the Digital Modes and VHF Contesting
From: Mark Spencer <mark@alignedsolutions.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:00:46 -0800
List-post: <mailto:vhfcontesting@contesting.com>
Sorry I hit send a bit to fast on my iPhone.

Anyways I did spend some time this morning trying what I believe is the latest 
version of WSJT-x with FT8 (with two computers and two radios) and I'm 
personally not overly enthused with the way the "/R" suffix appears to be 
supported.  That being said I usually enjoy using the WSJT-x  application and 
appreciate the efforts of the development team.   Perhaps I need to re set my 
expectations about how the "/R" suffix should be handled by digital modes but 
as a rover I'm not very enthused by a mode that seems to work differently when 
I add a "/R" to my call.  

I can also see why the developers may not want to change the application to 
address my concerns.   (Rovers are likely a fairly small subset of a fairly 
small part of the hobby.)

I do understand that other rovers have run WSJT-x (with FT8 and other modes) 
and may or may not share my views re this.  I also understand that there are 
numerous advantages to using modes such as FT8 and MSK144.

73
Mark S
VE7AFZ


All the best Mark S
VE7AFZ

mark@alignedsolutions.com
604 762 4099

> On Jan 23, 2018, at 1:23 PM, Mark Spencer <mark@alignedsolutions.com> wrote:
> 
> Re roving.   I'd suggest that we look for digital modes that easily 
> explicitly support (edited typo in original message) the "/R"'suffix or 
> consider removing the requirement to use the "/R" suffix.
> 
> Mark Spencer
> 
> Aligned Solutions Co.
> mark@alignedsolutions.com
> 604 762 4099
> 
>> On Jan 23, 2018, at 12:52 PM, JamesDuffey <jamesduffey@comcast.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Let me preface these comments with the statement that these observations are 
>> meant to provoke some productive and objective discussion on the digital 
>> modes in VHF contesting and not aimed at criticizing any individuals. Please 
>> take it in that spirit.
>> 
>> I find it odd that after years of wringing our hands over declining or 
>> steady participation in the VHF contests that some are now criticizing the 
>> increased activity that the digital modes, primarily FT8, are bringing to 
>> contesting. I realize that there is more to the sentiments some express than 
>> that, but to me, any increase in activity is good, particularly for the 
>> January contest when propagation is often flat. 
>> 
>> I think that there are three primary reasons that FT8 and MSK144 are popular:
>> 
>> 1. FT8 offers many of the advantages that CW offers on VHF. To people who 
>> have entered the hobby over the past 25 years without knowing the code, this 
>> is a powerful attraction, and one not to be taken lightly.
>> 
>> 2. Using both FT8 and MSK144, even a modestly equipped station on 6M can 
>> work other similarly equipped stations out to the limits of one hop Es. In 
>> some areas it is possible to work everyone within this radius that is on in 
>> a contest.  This is not easily possible on either CW or SSB with a modestly 
>> equipped station. 
>> 
>> 3. A lot of ops run FT8 on HF and many of the skills translate directly to 
>> 6M. With the proliferation of HF+6M rigs, this provides a large pool of 
>> potential VHF Contesters.  The  contesting skills do not necessarily 
>> translate, but it is, in part, our responsibility to educate these potential 
>> new VHF ops on how to operate contests. Posts educating newbies on VHF 
>> contesting practices on local contesting, VHF, DX, club reflectors and 
>> newsletters should be made by those of us who are experienced Contesters. 
>> 
>> It does not do much good to complain that FT8 ops would do better on CW if 
>> they don’t know CW. But if conditions support it, they should go to SSB, and 
>> we should spread the word that when the indicated SNR on FT8 is over a 
>> certain threshold, say +6dB for SSB and maybe -14dB for CW, the band is 
>> probably open and they would do better on CW or SSB depending on the 
>> operator’s skill.
>> 
>> A nice addition to FT8 would be an alert, perhaps flashing, included in the 
>> SNR report on FT8 suggestLet me preface these comments with the statement 
>> that these observations are meant to provoke some productive and objective 
>> discussion on the digital modes in VHF contesting and not aimed at 
>> criticizing any individuals. Please take it in that spirit.
>> 
>> I find it odd that after years of wringing our hands over declining or 
>> steady participation in the VHF contests that some are now criticizing the 
>> increased activity that the digital modes, primarily FT8, are bringing to 
>> contesting. I realize that there is more to the sentiments some express than 
>> that, but to me, any increase in activity is good, particularly for the 
>> January contest when propagation is often flat. 
>> 
>> I think that there are three primary reasons that FT8 and MSK144 are popular:
>> 
>> 1. FT8 offers many of the advantages that CW offers on VHF. To people who 
>> have entered the hobby over the past 25 years without knowing the code, this 
>> is a powerful attraction, and one not to be taken lightly.
>> 
>> 2. Using both FT8 and MSK144, even a modestly equipped station on 6M can 
>> work other similarly equipped stations out to the limits of one hop Es. In 
>> some areas it is possible to work everyone within this radius that is on in 
>> a contest.  This is not easily possible on either CW or SSB with a modestly 
>> equipped station. 
>> 
>> 3. A lot of ops run FT8 on HF and many of the skills translate directly to 
>> 6M. With the proliferation of HF+6M rigs, this provides a large pool of 
>> potential VHF Contesters.  The  contesting skills do not necessarily 
>> translate, but it is, in part, our responsibility to educate these potential 
>> new VHF ops on how to operate contests. Posts educating newbies on VHF 
>> contesting practices on local contesting, VHF, DX, club reflectors and 
>> newsletters should be made by those of us who are experienced Contesters. 
>> 
>> It does not do much good to complain that FT8 ops would do better on CW if 
>> they don’t know CW. But if conditions support it, they should go to SSB, and 
>> we should spread the word that when the indicated SNR on FT8 is over a 
>> certain threshold, say +6dB for SSB and maybe -14dB for CW, the band is 
>> probably open and they would do better on CW or SSB depending on the 
>> operator’s skill.
>> 
>> A nice addition to FT8 would be an alert, perhaps flashing, included in the 
>> SNR report on FT8 suggesting that CW or SSB might be a better choice for a 
>> QSO and the band may be open. 
>> 
>> I don’t think that there is really a viable analog, that is CW or SSB 
>> alternative, for meteor scatter QSOes in a contest, at least not for one 
>> that is as quick. 
>> 
>> I understand that it is hard to work scatter out to the limits with CW or 
>> SSB. It takes skill and patience. With FT8, these QSOes are much easier and 
>> the skill required is less, and hence there are more operators that can 
>> utilize these modes. I think that this is good. Again, some education for 
>> these ops on what propagation modes they are working on and how best to 
>> utilize the various modes would help.  
>> 
>> As several have stated, the problem with the digital modes is that they may 
>> take activity away from the conventional modes. I am not sure how best to 
>> deal with this, but getting people to use more of the assistance resources 
>> available is a start. That will alert the FT8 op that there is a QSO that 
>> can be made on SSB or CW that is not available on FT8. They can go to the 
>> analog modes after their FT8 QSO is complete, say in a minute or so. After 
>> doing this a few times, hopefully it will become second nature. The conflict 
>> between MSK144 and other modes is not as easily resolved as the time 
>> commitment for meteor scatter is longer. I have heard ops explain that they 
>> work FT8 because that is where the activity is and there is nothing to work 
>> on CW or SSB, and at the same time rovers in those same areas will complain 
>> that there is no one to work on CW or SSB because all of the ops they 
>> usually work are on FT8. Emphasizing FT8 over CW or SSB because of lack of 
>> analog activity is a self fulfilling prophecy. 
>> 
>> So, I think that to begin with, we should launch an education campaign to 
>> those new FT8 contest ops as to how best to maximize their scores by using 
>> modes other than FT8. 
>> 
>> Adding alerts to the FT8 software to prompt an op to go to CW or SSB when 
>> the SNR is good would help. 
>> 
>> Encouraging the FT8 ops to monitor the various forms of assistance so that 
>> they can be alerted when CW and SSB ops are available for QSOes would help 
>> as well. If FT8 ops keep an APRS window and local VHF chat room/activity 
>> window open, and pay attention to it, that would help alert the FT8 op that 
>> there are other, perhaps more fruitful and faster sources of QSOes and 
>> points. 
>> 
>> One issue that has not been expanded on much is the impact on rovers. FT8 
>> and MSK144 are additional activities layered on an already busy rover 
>> activity. Rovers usually work the easy pickings first when they make a stop. 
>> I, and I suspect most rovers, also try to work as many others that are on 
>> the air. If the rover goes to MSK144 or FT8 to work stations, that takes 
>> additional time, but it may make it worthwhile to get the extra mults and 
>> QSO points. Stations that are busy with scatter QSOes will put off working 
>> the rover. The end result will be that the rover will miss out on working 
>> stations he would normally work, or have to spend more time at a given stop, 
>> or perhaps operate on two radios simultaneously, probably with another 
>> operator and certainly with more hardware complexity. The  simple three band 
>> single op rover may become a thing of the past and everyone will suffer for 
>> it. 
>> 
>> I think the digital modes offer great contesting opportunities for the entry 
>> level operator and modestly equipped stations. We need to figure out how 
>> best to utilize them to derive the best benefit though. Education is a good 
>> place to start. 
>> 
>> Rational opposing views and thoughts on the subject?- Duffey KK6MC
>> 
>> James Duffey KK6MC
>> Cedar Crest NM
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